/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 18 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  13. # [00:35] <Hixie> annevk42: where is the credentials flag initialised in xhr2?
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  22. # [01:22] <jcranmer> gsnedders: a lot of networks just went down?
  23. # [01:23] <gsnedders> I mean, taking a minute to connect to "www.google.com" is wrong.
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  124. # [08:14] <heycam> Hixie, ping?
  125. # [08:15] <Hixie> here
  126. # [08:16] <heycam> so i'm thinking about your [XXX]es that are meant to be like "partial" interfaces
  127. # [08:16] <heycam> and i see that they all only have attributes on them, no operations
  128. # [08:17] <heycam> so that means what you really want is to avoid having a new object in the prototype chain for objects implementing these interfaces
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  130. # [08:17] <heycam> e.g. you don't want a new, empty prototype object in the chain that corresponds to the interface with the applets attribute on it
  131. # [08:18] <heycam> but, i don't think "extending" the interfaces, at the IDL level, is the right thing to do
  132. # [08:18] <heycam> you just want to control the JS aspects of it
  133. # [08:18] <heycam> so e.g. if these extended interfaces did have operations, then they would go on to the HTMLDocument prototype object (in this case)
  134. # [08:21] <heycam> well actually i see you have two kinds of XXXes now
  135. # [08:21] <heycam> on WindowModal, where you separate it because sometimes you want this interface to be implemented and sometimes not, but if it is, then there's no extra object in the prototype chain for WindowModal
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  137. # [08:22] <heycam> and for the things in the Obsolete section, where they're separate just so you don't see them in the earlier sections
  138. # [08:22] <heycam> but they are actually part of the same interface
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  143. # [08:24] <heycam> ok maybe i'm talking myself into allowing "partial" interface definitions
  144. # [08:24] <heycam> for that second case
  145. # [08:24] <heycam> even though it's only because of how you want to organise the spec
  146. # [08:24] <heycam> but for the WindowModal case i think your XXX does need to be something like NoPrototypeObject
  147. # [08:27] <heycam> maybe partial should also exist to support adding new constants from different specs, like DOMException codes
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  155. # [08:30] <heycam> also, i'm thinking of moving a bunch of things from extended attributes into the "proper" syntax
  156. # [08:30] <heycam> like optional arguments, variadic operations
  157. # [08:31] <heycam> i'm gonna give up pretending web idl is a superset of omg idl
  158. # [08:34] <Hixie> (still here, hold on)
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  160. # [08:35] <Hixie> heycam: basically my desire is to not have the spec separation affect the prototype chain
  161. # [08:36] <Hixie> heycam: so we should be able to take, e.g., HTMLDocument, or Window, and split it amongst multiple specs and have zero effect on implementation requirements
  162. # [08:36] <Hixie> heycam: basically i'm trying to avoid the problem hsivonen mentions regularly where you end up splitting the tech into silos per wg
  163. # [08:38] <heycam> so, having a [NoPrototypeObject] could do that
  164. # [08:38] <heycam> especially if the interface only has attributes, since they never go in prototype objects
  165. # [08:38] <Hixie> they'll have methods sometimes
  166. # [08:38] <Hixie> i'm surprised that they don't already
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  168. # [08:39] <heycam> maybe something like [AugmentPrototype=Window] instead
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  170. # [08:39] <Hixie> yes
  171. # [08:39] <Hixie> that would work
  172. # [08:39] <Hixie> and then the "actual" interface name wouldn't matter?
  173. # [08:40] <Hixie> i.e. it'd be an editorial concern only?
  174. # [08:40] <heycam> yes, except for other language bindings
  175. # [08:40] <heycam> which don't have prototypes
  176. # [08:40] <Hixie> well for bindings that have classes i'd want the same thing
  177. # [08:40] <heycam> they'd be proper, separate interfaces still
  178. # [08:40] <heycam> yeah?
  179. # [08:40] <Hixie> the idea is for there to be zero differences
  180. # [08:40] <heycam> how should it matter?
  181. # [08:40] <heycam> if you say "all HTMLDocument objects also implement HTMLDocumentObselete"
  182. # [08:41] <heycam> oh casting would matter
  183. # [08:41] <Hixie> don't you have to explicitly cast from one to the other?
  184. # [08:41] <Hixie> right
  185. # [08:41] <heycam> i mean, you'd need to cast
  186. # [08:41] <heycam> hmm
  187. # [08:41] <heycam> so it sounds like you exactly want a "partial" modifier on interface
  188. # [08:42] <Hixie> the point is we should be able to take HTML5, 10 years from now, when it's all perfectly implemented (hah), and make 15 specs out of it and be able to release that as an Edited Recommendation that has zero changes required to any test suites in any languages
  189. # [08:42] <Hixie> with all the same code working unchanged
  190. # [08:42] <Hixie> that's basically what i'm doing, btw -- taking DOM2 HTML, and splitting it into the "obsolete" and "today" sections in html5
  191. # [08:43] <Hixie> 10 years after DOM2 HTML was published
  192. # [08:44] <heycam> ok i'm gonna go for a "partial" keyword then, see how it goes
  193. # [08:44] <Hixie> cool
  194. # [08:44] <heycam> partial interface HTMLDocument : ... { /* now stuff */ }; partial interface HTMLDocument { /* old stuff */ };
  195. # [08:45] <Hixie> do i put it on all interfaces?
  196. # [08:45] <heycam> hmm
  197. # [08:45] <heycam> you want any interface to be extendable?
  198. # [08:45] <Hixie> i'm sure there will be specs that add to Window if there aren't already
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  200. # [08:45] <heycam> right
  201. # [08:45] <Hixie> and it would have been nice to be able to add to HTMLElement instead of having the side interfaces, for some cases
  202. # [08:46] <Hixie> but i dunno
  203. # [08:46] <heycam> yeah i'm not sure
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  205. # [08:46] <Hixie> i mean, if we have to have it to extend, you're basically saying it's the opposite of "final"
  206. # [08:46] <heycam> well, not really
  207. # [08:46] <heycam> you can extend with ":"
  208. # [08:46] <heycam> but it's a different kind of extending
  209. # [08:46] <Hixie> yeah
  210. # [08:47] <Hixie> ":" and also with "side" interfaces
  211. # [08:47] <Hixie> like how EventTarget is on all Nodes
  212. # [08:47] <heycam> right
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  214. # [08:47] <heycam> depends on how you want the prototype chain to look
  215. # [08:47] <Hixie> but for some cases like Window that seems... wrong
  216. # [08:47] <Hixie> yeah
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  218. # [08:47] <heycam> yeah Window is a bit special in that regard, in that you think of it as just a pool of properties that you add to
  219. # [08:47] <Hixie> i guess in practice people would just say that the interface they want to extend had "partial" on it
  220. # [08:47] <Hixie> even if it didn't
  221. # [08:48] <heycam> heh perhaps
  222. # [08:48] <Hixie> so in practice even if you say we have to put it on both, it won't matter
  223. # [08:48] <Hixie> it's just nice to annotate one of them (the "not primary" one, there's usually a clear one that is the "primary" one) as being an extention of another
  224. # [08:50] <heycam> it's kinda weird for languages like java to have an interface whose definition changes depending on which specs you decide to implement
  225. # [08:51] <Hixie> why?
  226. # [08:51] <Hixie> how is that different from when you decide how much of one spec to implement?
  227. # [08:51] <Hixie> it's not like spec boundaries reflect actual implementation boundaries, like, ever
  228. # [08:52] <heycam> it's different if you want to use two libraries together, say
  229. # [08:52] <heycam> let's say a spec first defines interface A
  230. # [08:52] <heycam> and a later spec defines an extension to A
  231. # [08:52] <heycam> and both of these specs used this "partial" keyword to allow this
  232. # [08:53] <heycam> one library was compiled with the first A, and another library was compiled with the extended A
  233. # [08:53] <heycam> now both libraries have different A.class files
  234. # [08:53] <heycam> whichever one the class loader finds first is the one that will be usable
  235. # [08:53] <heycam> you need to be sure to get the extended one loaded first somehow
  236. # [08:54] <heycam> but then it's impossible if there were two extensions to A, and each library chose the different extended one
  237. # [08:54] <heycam> you couldn't get both libraries working together in the one program
  238. # [08:56] <Hixie> what about if you use two libraries, and they both implement a part of the same spec?
  239. # [08:56] <Hixie> same problem
  240. # [08:56] <Hixie> literally the same problem, because the next day that spec might be split into two
  241. # [08:57] <Hixie> and the day after that the specs might be merged together again
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  243. # [08:57] <heycam> you could at least have the same all-in-one interface implemented by both libraries, but some of those methods just throw a NotImplementedException or something
  244. # [08:57] <heycam> in fact you would need to, to get it to compile
  245. # [08:58] <Hixie> i guess in java maybe. in javascript we encourage implementations that don't support something to not expose it, so that you can test to see if it exists
  246. # [08:58] <heycam> yes
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  248. # [08:59] <heycam> it's a benefit of not having to implement a whole interface i suppose
  249. # [08:59] <Hixie> well it's a benefit of easy reification
  250. # [09:00] <heycam> benefit of duck typing (sorta)?
  251. # [09:01] <Hixie> vaguely
  252. # [09:01] <Hixie> not exclusively though
  253. # [09:01] <Hixie> it's a benefit of late binding and easy reification
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  255. # [09:02] <Hixie> sorry, not reification, reflection
  256. # [09:02] <Hixie> late binding and reflection
  257. # [09:02] <Hixie> because you can compile code that uses something without it needing to be supported, and then you can test to see if that code would work, and if it doesn't, you can skip it
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  260. # [09:05] <heycam> so for something like WindowTimers, would you want to do that with partial instead?
  261. # [09:09] <Hixie> yeah
  262. # [09:09] <Hixie> actually no
  263. # [09:09] <Hixie> well
  264. # [09:09] <Hixie> gah, i dunno
  265. # [09:10] <Hixie> WindowTimers is also implemented by the WorkerUtils object
  266. # [09:10] <heycam> ah
  267. # [09:10] <Hixie> but i'd want it to appear on the prototype of WorkerUtils (which itself should just appear on the prototype of two other interfaces), and i'd want it to appear as if it was part of Window also
  268. # [09:10] <Hixie> and it's specced in the same spec as Window but not the same spec as WorkerUtils
  269. # [09:11] <heycam> do any of these use ":"?
  270. # [09:11] <heycam> or is it [ImplementedOn]
  271. # [09:12] <Hixie> none of these use :
  272. # [09:12] <heycam> btw i think i like the "Node implements EventTarget;" kind of syntax
  273. # [09:12] <Hixie> oh actually that's a lie
  274. # [09:12] <Hixie> the WorkerUtils thing is implemented on interfaces that do use inheritance
  275. # [09:13] <heycam> [AugmentPrototype] Window implements WindowTimers;
  276. # [09:13] <heycam> or if you're doing something with ":"
  277. # [09:14] <heycam> interface ExtendedWindow : [AugmentPrototype] Window ...
  278. # [09:14] <heycam> but have Java interfaces change depending on which specs you choose to implement seems bad to me
  279. # [09:15] <Hixie> well i don't really mind how you end up doing things for java really
  280. # [09:15] <Hixie> i'm mildly professionally interested in how what you do ends up for C++, because of Native Client's use of WebIDL
  281. # [09:15] <Hixie> but really my interest lies in JS
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  283. # [09:17] <heycam> having c++ classes with different members seems as bad as with java
  284. # [09:17] <heycam> mixin abstract classes (just like different java interfaces) seems ok though
  285. # [09:20] * hsivonen raises eyebrows at www-tag
  286. # [09:23] <hsivonen> s/www-tag/www-archive-
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  288. # [09:28] <heycam> Hixie, i'll think about partial/[AugmentPrototype] a bit more, gotta head home now
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  305. # [09:59] <Hixie> heycam: cool, thanks
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  356. # [12:48] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/process.py?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Fsandbox%2Fhtml%2Fgoogle-chrome-comic seems wrong
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  384. # [15:48] <annevk42> http://troogle.wordpress.com/2009/06/17/google-is-trying-to-set-us-up-breaking-news-the-new-web-project-revealed-before-its-release/ wtf
  385. # [15:48] <annevk42> especially since http://whois.domaintools.com/thenewwebproject.com points back to them
  386. # [15:49] <annevk42> some kind of elaborate joke that did not cover its tracks?
  387. # [15:50] <Dashiva> "we believe the GOVERNMENT is involved too"
  388. # [15:50] <Philip`> "Google has plans to work together with Microsoft ..." - clearly this whole thing is just a work of fiction
  389. # [15:51] <Dashiva> It looks like a parody of that British guy who walked around with visible secret papers
  390. # [15:52] <annevk42> http://cocaman.ch/wp/2009/06/the-new-web-project-its-a-movie-and-plot-against-google/
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  393. # [15:54] <annevk42> they could have at least used a proxy for the whois
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  403. # [17:03] <Philip`> http://asyourworldchanges.wordpress.com/2009/05/31/hear-me-stumble-around-white-house-recovery-and-data-gov-web-sites/ looks potentially informative
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  477. # [21:16] <ojan> I know arun's not around, but maybe others here know the answer to my question...why does File API need getAsDataURI and getAsText?
  478. # [21:17] <ojan> as in, can't you replace getAsDataURI with a few lines of code wrapping getAsText?
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  480. # [21:26] <annevk2> i guess it's just a convenience thing
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  482. # [21:26] <annevk2> not sure it's needed if we get the getAsLocalURL()
  483. # [21:27] <annevk2> ojan, seems best to comment on public-webapps
  484. # [21:28] <ojan> annevk2: will do. just wanted to make sure i wasn't missing something obvious
  485. # [21:28] <ojan> annevk2: yeah, getAsLocalURL does seem very useful to me
  486. # [21:28] <annevk2> oh wait, I guess PNG and such won't get you text but will get you data URLs
  487. # [21:29] * annevk2 wonders why he did not think of that
  488. # [21:29] <annevk2> but then getAsText might work anyway, it's not very well defined
  489. # [21:30] <ojan> i was thinking that if you passed base64 as the encoding to getAsText it ought to work for binary content
  490. # [21:32] <annevk2> base64 is not a character encoding, however
  491. # [21:32] <annevk2> but then getAsText is underdefined
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  502. # [22:34] <annevk5> oh yay, some guy is advocating software patents on www-style
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  512. # [23:02] <sicking> Hixie, ping
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  522. # [23:23] <Hixie> sicking: here
  523. # [23:23] <sicking> Hixie, is there a draft for File drag-n-drop?
  524. # [23:24] <sicking> Hixie, we have an intern that's going to start working on it pretty much today
  525. # [23:24] <sicking> Hixie, we can do a lot without a spec for now I think, but it'd be nice to have a draft
  526. # [23:24] <annevk5> there's a proposal on the WHATWG list
  527. # [23:25] <Hixie> i'm waiting for arun's draft to stabalise
  528. # [23:25] <Hixie> but basically i expect datatransfer to get some new api for files
  529. # [23:26] <Hixie> maybe make getData and setData take |any| instead of DOMString
  530. # [23:26] <Hixie> and have them return either DOMStrings for Files
  531. # [23:26] <Hixie> or alternatively, have the files be totally separate
  532. # [23:26] <sicking> Hixie, ok
  533. # [23:26] <Hixie> just a .files or something on DataTransfer
  534. # [23:27] * gsnedders hits more bugs in PHP. ergh.
  535. # [23:27] <Hixie> oh hey, arun is mozilla too, i forgot
  536. # [23:27] <Hixie> go light a fire under his chair :-)
  537. # [23:27] <Hixie> i think we'll go with just .files
  538. # [23:28] <gsnedders> Hixie: But that'll mean he'll have to move away from his computer, thus making him take longer to write the spec
  539. # [23:28] <Hixie> gsnedders: it is implied that he'd be tied down first and only released once the spec was done, thus increasing the motivation to work on it :-)
  540. # [23:28] <Hixie> sicking: yeah so i imagine we'll add a .files that returns a sequence<File>
  541. # [23:30] <sicking> Hixie, ok
  542. # [23:30] <sicking> Hixie, ugh, we'll have to add support for sequence<> to gecko...
  543. # [23:30] <sicking> Hixie, the idea is that that'll map to a JS array, right?
  544. # [23:32] <sicking> annevk5, where is the proposal on the whatwg list? What's the subject line?
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  546. # [23:33] * virtuelv thinks "file" should be the atom here, whether that is a file or collection of files
  547. # [23:34] <virtuelv> and treat, at least, zip files as if they were collections of files
  548. # [23:34] <othermaciej> sicking: fwiw we have a patch to implement it for WebKit, and we proposed an API on WHATWG
  549. # [23:34] <virtuelv> that way, an application could easily process openoffice (and similar) documents like epub
  550. # [23:35] <othermaciej> sicking: our version is fairly agnostic with respect to details of Arun's draft
  551. # [23:35] <sicking> othermaciej, cool
  552. # [23:35] <sicking> othermaciej, do you have a link to the draft you proposed?
  553. # [23:35] <gsnedders> Hixie: But then you risk him dying before he finishes the spec, which means you need to find a new editor
  554. # [23:36] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@17.226.23.106) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  555. # [23:36] <othermaciej> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-June/020302.html
  556. # [23:36] <othermaciej> sicking: ^
  557. # [23:38] <Hixie> that's basically what i just described :-)
  558. # [23:38] <Hixie> sicking: sequence<T> is just shorthand for an interface with a length property and an item() property or something like that, i think
  559. # [23:38] <Hixie> sicking: basically i just mean your regular DOM list of things
  560. # [23:39] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@084202133045.customer.alfanett.no) ("Ex-Chat")
  561. # [23:40] * gsnedders gives up trying to obtain Lightroom, seeming Adobe keep refusing to sell it to me
  562. # [23:40] <gsnedders> Oh well, their lost sale.
  563. # [23:42] <sicking> Hixie, ok
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  567. # [23:52] <sicking> othermaciej, btw, have you had a look at the API that Arun proposed for File?
  568. # [23:53] <sicking> othermaciej, I know FileDialog is still controversial, but it'd be nice to hear how you feel about File
  569. # [23:53] <othermaciej> sicking: not yet
  570. # [23:53] <othermaciej> sicking: on my TODO list of spec review
  571. # [23:54] <othermaciej> I just did a careful review of ForceTLS so I'm in a reviewing mood
  572. # [23:54] <sicking> hehe
  573. # [23:54] <sicking> sweet
  574. # [23:54] <othermaciej> sicking: I expect to have issues with it if there's still synchronous file I/O, which I suspect there is
  575. # [23:55] <sicking> othermaciej, nope, asynch only
  576. # [23:55] <othermaciej> then maybe not so much!
  577. # [23:55] <sicking> sweet!
  578. # [23:55] <sicking> i know you guys had concerns about googles Blob proposal, which was async only
  579. # [23:55] <othermaciej> we're obviously interested in making file access better, and it would be nice to have fine DnD and our <input type="file" multi> fuly spec'd
  580. # [23:56] <sicking> not sure what that feedback was though, so not sure if it applies to File
  581. # [23:56] <othermaciej> I dunno
  582. # [23:56] <Hixie> i'll spec both of those within days of arun's proposal being stable
  583. # [23:56] <sicking> othermaciej, Agreed. I think the only controversial part is FileDialog, assuming you're fine with file I/O
  584. # [23:56] <othermaciej> right now we're just using the File interface as a dumb handle
  585. # [23:58] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  586. # Session Close: Fri Jun 19 00:00:00 2009

The end :)