/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-23 / end

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  6. # [01:17] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  7. # [01:17] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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  18. # [02:25] <Hixie> hsivonen: http://identi.ca/notice/5639842 :-( ?
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  48. # [05:57] <MikeSmith> description of r3304 says "Write some explanatory text around the HTML parser." but the actual change just looks like some additions to the embedded CSS stylesheet
  49. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> ah, I see now
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  76. # [07:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: V.nu whines about cellspacing and cellpadding for me. Steps to reproduce?
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  80. # [07:59] <Hixie> hsivonen: no idea, just saw the twitter
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  125. # [09:48] * hsivonen wishes cssquirrel studied the mailing lists enough to call other people on practicing the bible of handling people
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  128. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> I wish cssquirrel comics has more sex and violence
  129. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> because there are few things in this world that are funnier than depictions of cartoon characters having sex with each other
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  139. # [10:13] <Dashiva> I'm not sure I get the cssquirrel argument
  140. # [10:14] <Dashiva> It's been shown that these data studies can be independently verified, and his response is that we should throw away the useful data just because... it has to be verified?
  141. # [10:15] <Dashiva> Next up, dot.org is revealed to be the real mastermind behind this
  142. # [10:15] <hsivonen> Dashiva: it's the vast Google-wing conspiracy! independent verifications doesn't change that
  143. # [10:16] <Dashiva> It does seem to reduce to "Data is evil, let's just make up opinions instead"
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  149. # [10:25] <Philip`> "[using non-Google data] helps take the wind out of any Google influence concerns that may arise (such as mine)" - I'm not sure that's necessarily the case, because we already do that stuff and he has those concerns anyway based on the misconception that we don't
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  152. # [10:27] <Philip`> so I guess the way to alleviate those concerns is to make it clearer to concerned persons what data we use, rather than actually doing anything much differently
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  154. # [10:32] <Dashiva> Data is evil, I tell you
  155. # [10:33] <Philip`> Only Google data is evil, because the editor works for Google
  156. # [10:34] <Philip`> Also, data collected by humans is evil, because the editor is a human
  157. # [10:34] <Philip`> My data's okay though
  158. # [10:34] <hsivonen> Philip`: why is your data okay? is it an expert opinion?
  159. # [10:34] <Philip`> even though all the actual processing is done in secret with non-public code and it could be full of bugs or I could be making it all up
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  162. # [10:36] <Philip`> hsivonen: My expert opinion is that I'm not an expert and it would not generally be sensible to trust anything I say :-)
  163. # [10:38] <Dashiva> So you admit you're making it all up?
  164. # [10:38] <hsivonen> fortunately, real Web data is so crazy you can't make it up
  165. # [10:39] <Philip`> Dashiva: I can neither confirm nor deny such rumours
  166. # [10:40] <Dashiva> Google's data verifies that you're making it up
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  168. # [10:41] <Philip`> http://www.google.com/search?q=Am+I+making+it+all+up%3F - apparently I am not making this up
  169. # [10:42] <Dashiva> That's a trope
  170. # [10:42] <Dashiva> You obviously wouldn't fall for that
  171. # [10:42] <Dashiva> So you are making it up!
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  176. # [10:48] <Philip`> Dashiva: Hmph! Foiled again
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  179. # [10:56] <jgraham> Philip`: It would be insane not to use Google data where it is useful.
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  181. # [10:57] <jgraham> So it seems like the CSSquirrel guy should have said "oh, my whole article was based on the misconception that no one was trying to reproduce these results. Sorry!"
  182. # [10:57] <jgraham> Rather than saying "oh well you shouldn't use that readily avaliable source of data because it could lead to accusations like the one I just made"
  183. # [10:58] <jgraham> "even though people have taken reasonable care to apply rigour and reproducability to the analayses"
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  187. # [11:21] * hsivonen wonders what happened to markp's 'this week' posts
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  192. # [11:33] <Lachy> regarding this test http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/150 it's not clear to me whether the UA can wait till the loop has finished executing before firing the events, or whether it can fire them synchronously each time setItem() is invoked
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  194. # [11:34] <Lachy> Minefield seems to fire the events synchronously, but our internal Opera build waits until the loop is done and then fires all events together.
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  196. # [11:35] <Lachy> (that test freezes the latest WebKit though)
  197. # [11:35] <hsivonen> does this mean Chrome 1.x will be gone as soon as instances autoupdate selves? http://googlechromereleases.blogspot.com/2009/06/stable-beta-update-security-fix.html
  198. # [11:37] <annevk5> Chrome 1.x was already gone
  199. # [11:37] <abarth> which is A Good Thing (tm)
  200. # [11:38] <Lachy> does Chrome automatically update itself without asking the user?
  201. # [11:38] <annevk5> hey abarth, I've been meaning to think you for taking care of the CORS thread
  202. # [11:38] <abarth> although i talked to someone the other day who still had Chrome 0.2
  203. # [11:38] <annevk5> oops
  204. # [11:38] <abarth> he had hacked the omaha client to stop updates
  205. # [11:38] <abarth> annevk5: no problem. hopefully tyler isn't too mad at me
  206. # [11:39] <annevk5> Lachy, storage fires async
  207. # [11:39] <annevk5> Lachy, though maybe not yet in Gecko
  208. # [11:40] <Lachy> annevk5, ok
  209. # [11:41] <abarth> Lachy: yes. although you can control the updates with registry keys
  210. # [11:41] <hsivonen> it seems that Chrome makes it hard for Web authors to keep old versions around, which I guess is a good thing
  211. # [11:41] <Lachy> then I wonder what would happen if I let the loop run for a few million loops and let the task queue fill up
  212. # [11:42] <abarth> Lachy: http://code.google.com/p/omaha/wiki/UpdateControls
  213. # [11:42] <abarth> hsivonen: why do you want old versions? 99% of users are on the latest version
  214. # [11:43] <hsivonen> abarth: I don't. I said I guess it's a good thing that it's hard to keep old versions around.
  215. # [11:43] <abarth> hsivonen: ah, misread :)
  216. # [11:43] * annevk5 wonders how this will work if Chrome is adopted by corporations
  217. # [11:43] <Philip`> Old versions are interesting as a historical curiosity
  218. # [11:44] <abarth> yeah
  219. # [11:44] <abarth> we tried running some super old version of navigator
  220. # [11:44] <abarth> they were super crashy
  221. # [11:44] <abarth> but fun
  222. # [11:44] <hsivonen> maybe I should subscribe my IE6 VM to Chrome stable, IE7 VM to Chrome beta and IE8 VM to Chrome dev
  223. # [11:44] <abarth> haha
  224. # [11:45] <abarth> the dev channel is too unstable for me
  225. # [11:45] <abarth> they're trying to make it better though
  226. # [11:45] <Philip`> (http://browsers.evolt.org/ is great, and lots of them still work in Windows or Wine)
  227. # [11:45] <abarth> with more automated testing
  228. # [11:45] <Philip`> (though some old versions of Netscape are presumably failing to send the Host header or something, and so are incapable of viewing almost every web site on the planet)
  229. # [11:46] <abarth> haha
  230. # [11:46] <Philip`> (or at least Google and Wikipedia, which I consider to be almost every web site on the planet)
  231. # [11:46] <abarth> we were looking at the lock icon
  232. # [11:46] <jgraham> Hmm it seems like the autoupdating + corporate users incompatibility would seriously damage the abaility of chrome to remove IE marketshare
  233. # [11:46] <abarth> i think the number of teeth on the lock represented the strength of the encryption
  234. # [11:47] <abarth> jgraham: chrome isn't optimized for enterprises yet
  235. # [11:47] <jgraham> (which I thought was the stated goal)
  236. # [11:47] <abarth> jgraham: the update controls are a first step in that direction
  237. # [11:47] <gsnedders> jgraham: I thought the stated goal was to help drive competition and hence development of all browsers
  238. # [11:48] * Philip` once talked to someone who seemingly had a better-than-average understanding of web security, because he knew "if the thing at the top says something like HPTPS then it's safe"
  239. # [11:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: Maybe
  240. # [11:49] * Philip` wouldn't really fancy having to explain how subtle changes in an icon represent encryption strength
  241. # [11:49] <abarth> yeah, it's just an interesting historical oddity
  242. # [11:50] <abarth> although it gives you some insight into their frame of mind at the time
  243. # [11:50] <Philip`> gsnedders: I thought the stated goal was world domination
  244. # [11:51] <Philip`> abarth: The userbase for web browsers was a bit different at that time too, so maybe it was not quite as unreasonable as it seems today
  245. # [11:52] <gsnedders> Philip`: What's the weather like there?
  246. # [11:53] <Philip`> gsnedders: I don't know, the weather monitoring station has been taken down for maintenance
  247. # [11:53] <gsnedders> :)
  248. # [11:53] <jgraham> gsnedders: It's like the siberian tundra with only slight changes to the temperature, precipitation and pressure
  249. # [11:54] <annevk5> Hixie, in the new Selector chapter you want to define "case-insensitive" as "ASCII case-insensitive" and link it and such
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  262. # [12:36] * MikeSmith wonders where zcorpan might be
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  264. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> can't remember if Simon was around when we were discussing the [Reflect] thing yesterday
  265. # [12:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: he added a note to Web DOM Core later
  266. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> oh
  267. # [12:38] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Linköping
  268. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: aha, I see it now
  269. # [12:39] <jgraham> gsnedders: He might be, he might not. It's hard to tell
  270. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: gesundheit
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  274. # [12:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: Do you know whether you are right about where you thought I would be sitting?
  275. # [12:43] <jgraham> Yes. I know.
  276. # [12:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: Were you write?
  277. # [12:45] <gsnedders> *right
  278. # [12:46] <takkaria> oo, where?
  279. # [12:46] <jgraham> As I am handed
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  282. # [12:46] * gsnedders sighs
  283. # [12:47] <gsnedders> jgraham: Are the people I'll be around evil? :P
  284. # [12:48] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121.74.128.222)
  285. # [12:49] <jgraham> Do you consider "overendowed with natural programming ability" to be a sign of evil?
  286. # [12:49] <gsnedders> jgraham: Possibly.
  287. # [12:50] <Dashiva> Depends on the language
  288. # [12:51] <gsnedders> If Perl, certainly.
  289. # [12:51] <Philip`> There's nothing natural about the ability to program Perl
  290. # [12:52] <jgraham> Hixie and Philip` both have a certian fondness for Perl. I guess that explains a lot
  291. # [12:54] <jgraham> Maybe the CSSquirrel is right
  292. # [12:54] * Philip` hasn't written any Perl more complex than "while (($_ = <$authz>) =~ /\S/) {" today, and that's quite readable :-(
  293. # [12:54] <hsivonen> maybe it's a vast Perl-wing conspiracy instead of a Google conspiracy. Google uses Python.
  294. # [12:58] * Joins: takoratt_ (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244)
  295. # [12:58] <Philip`> Perl users are too pathologically eclectic to form a conspiracy
  296. # [13:03] <hsivonen> looks like IBM now has an Orbeon-like product: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/JohnBoyer?entry=xforms_xfdl_and_lotus_domino?ca=drs-bl
  297. # [13:08] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  298. # [13:08] <hsivonen> why isn't webapps killing mutation events altogether?
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  312. # [13:54] <takkaria> I've not found anywhere in Sweden yet which sells fresh potatoes
  313. # [13:54] <takkaria> this saddens me
  314. # [13:54] <takkaria> I like potatoes
  315. # [13:56] * zcorpan_ has eaten swedish fresh potatoes several times this year
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  317. # [13:57] <jgraham> takkaria: Did you try a shop?
  318. # [13:57] <takkaria> I have
  319. # [13:58] * jgraham has no idea what the difference is beteen fresh and non-fresh potatoes but has had no difficulty in aquiring potatoes
  320. # [13:58] <takkaria> well, I can find jars of salted potatoes
  321. # [13:58] <takkaria> I couldn't find any in Hemköp, anyway
  322. # [13:59] <jgraham> Odd
  323. # [13:59] <jgraham> I am reasonably sure I have bought potatoes there
  324. # [14:00] <jgraham> I mean potatoes, in all their forms, seem to make up about 9/10 of the national diet
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  326. # [14:00] <takkaria> maybe they've just not been then when I have
  327. # [14:01] <takkaria> s/then/there/
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  331. # [14:16] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus
  332. # [14:20] <beowulf> takkaria: ask gsnedders to bring some potatoes in his suitcase...
  333. # [14:32] <Philip`> He could smuggle them across the border disguised as Mr Potato Heads
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  336. # [14:32] <Philip`> to avoid having to pay import duty
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  342. # [14:59] <zcorpan_> Hixie: did you look at the emails when writing the latest checkin?
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  352. # [15:40] <drcode> hi all
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  363. # [16:27] <zcorpan_> Philip` says "I don’t remember Hixie quoting any private data about that issue." - http://www.cssquirrel.com/2009/06/22/comic-update-who-really-is-the-wizard-of-html5/
  364. # [16:27] <zcorpan_> the response? "Philip, then Ian needs to use these external data sources from now on, rather than falling back on Google’s index."
  365. # [16:29] <zcorpan_> interesting that people complain about Hixie using google's index when he has only been looking at other people's data
  366. # [16:30] <jgraham> zcorpan_: I'm not sure interesting is quite the right word
  367. # [16:31] * Philip` 's memory could easily be wrong, but he'll stick with it until someone provides evidence demonstrating otherwise
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  371. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> that side of the discussion sorta seems to be missing the basic point that some data is at least better than no data
  372. # [16:35] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: that's not what i see. i see complaints about hixie basing decisions on data from google's index
  373. # [16:36] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Client Quit)
  374. # [16:36] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: while in fact he's basing decisions on data provided by other people
  375. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> that is, if person/group P don't like the data that's been given by person/group H, then P is free to collect/publish other data
  376. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah, understood
  377. # [16:37] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Some data is no worse than no data, because you can always choose to ignore the data; but the complaints seem to be about people not ignoring the data
  378. # [16:37] <jgraham> I think that, at a more fundamental level, that side of the discussion is missing the fact that language design is fundamentally about HCI design.
  379. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> but my point about this is that it's perhaps not about the particular data, it's instead a kind of general fear of data for this case
  380. # [16:38] <jgraham> I really mean to write a blog post about that but I don't know how to get going
  381. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> that is, a realization that no matter where the data comes from for this case, it's going to support the conclusion that's been made so far after observing it
  382. # [16:38] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  383. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> so some choose to argue against the particular data-collection methods
  384. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> but they do so to get people to ignore the data
  385. # [16:40] <takkaria> quite a brilliant method, really
  386. # [16:40] <takkaria> I believe it's outlined in Hixie's Bible. :)
  387. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> so cssquirrel comic illustrates that pretty well
  388. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> ignore the data behind the curtain
  389. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> look over here where I'm waving my hands instead
  390. # [16:41] <Philip`> MikeSmith: The CSSquirrel thing doesn't say what specific case it's referring to, which makes it harder to argue against using specifics, but I guess it's really about accessibility again
  391. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> Philip`: any time nothing is mentioned specifically, it's usually about accessibility
  392. # [16:41] * jgraham is still clinging on to the hope that people aren't malicious but misguided
  393. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> because unfortunately many people don't want to talk about it explicitly
  394. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> not talk about it in any kind of negative way, at least
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  396. # [16:43] <gsnedders> Is there any way to resubmit a form in Opera?
  397. # [16:44] <gsnedders> Or do I really need to re-write what I just wrote?
  398. # [16:44] <Dashiva> ?
  399. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I don't think anybody involved in this is actually maliciously or even that they are particularly misguided
  400. # [16:44] * Philip` thinks it's hard to avoid being misguided, because there's so much information about HTML5 development that it's pretty much impossible to keep up with it all, and so most people only notice the few specific areas where someone shouts loudly
  401. # [16:44] <Dashiva> gsnedders: When you go back, the form contents should still be there?
  402. # [16:44] <gsnedders> Dashiva: It isn't. It reloads the page with the original content.
  403. # [16:44] <Philip`> gsnedders: The back button works for me, except when the site is stupid and tries to do something clever
  404. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> jgraham: seems like most everybody has an investment/agenda they want to protect, even when they don't admit it or call it that
  405. # [16:46] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Maybe
  406. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> jgraham: and I guess some people are more easily able to cut their losses on a what turns out might have been a not-so-great investment, and some people find it a lot harder
  407. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> (how's that for talking around things?)
  408. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> I should shut up now
  409. # [16:49] <beowulf> i don't see how it helps that people are scared to talk about accessibility, if i can put it that way
  410. # [16:49] <beowulf> but what do i know?
  411. # [16:49] <Philip`> You shouldn't shut up - you should try saying more and more outrageous things, and see how long people keep thinking everything you say in IRC should be taken seriously
  412. # [16:49] <MikeSmith> heh
  413. # [16:49] <MikeSmith> I may be past that point already
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  415. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> Philip`: and I've already succeeded in tainting our bugzilla with that kind of ambiquity and confusing now to
  416. # [16:50] * gsnedders_ contemplates going back to using Safari to write blog posts, because he never lost data there
  417. # [16:50] * gsnedders_ sighs
  418. # [16:51] <Philip`> gsnedders_: You should write them in Notepad and then paste them into the browser
  419. # [16:51] <beowulf> gsnedders_: use vim for that :)
  420. # [16:51] <zcorpan_> takkaria: do you have your irc client set to utf-8?
  421. # [16:51] <takkaria> zcorpan_: I think so
  422. # [16:51] <takkaria> gsnedders_: text editor first, paste into form later?
  423. # [16:51] <gsnedders_> Reloading the submitted form page (which was just "connection failed" gives me a blank page)
  424. # [16:51] <zcorpan_> takkaria: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090623#l-321
  425. # [16:52] <takkaria> oh, damn, not one but two people got there first
  426. # [16:52] <gsnedders_> My browser should not cause me to lose data.
  427. # [16:52] <takkaria> zcorpan_: hm, I'll tweak
  428. # [16:52] * gsnedders_ wonders if there is anyway to get at the data I lost
  429. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> beowulf: on the subject of humor, you riff about gsnedders_ suitcase yesterday was solid gold
  430. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> "carved out of single Scottish oak" or something like that
  431. # [16:53] <Philip`> Solid gold? That would explain why it was so heavy
  432. # [16:53] <beowulf> finally i make a contribution, where's my cv...
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  435. # [16:53] <takkaria> gsnedders_: depends
  436. # [16:53] <takkaria> gsnedders_: do a memory dump to disk and grep
  437. # [16:53] <takkaria> worked for me once
  438. # [16:53] <MikeSmith> the helium and stuff from Philip` and others after that that was gold-ish too
  439. # [16:53] <takkaria> took me about an hour
  440. # [16:53] <jgraham> Anyway, like I said, the big philosopical divide I see is beteen people who view writing a language as basically an engineering problem (we have to provide features x y and z so we will have markup corresponding to x y and z) and people wwho view it as a HCI problem (we have to maximise the chance that users are exposed to the features x y and z and that they are used in the right way)
  441. # [16:55] * gsnedders_ wonders how to get a memory dump
  442. # [16:56] <Philip`> 'cat /dev/mem' if you have a sensible OS
  443. # [16:56] <takkaria> as root
  444. # [16:58] <gsnedders_> There is no /dev/mem
  445. # [16:58] <Philip`> Install a sensible OS first, then
  446. # [16:58] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@5ED2D27A.cable.ziggo.nl)
  447. # [16:58] <Philip`> being careful not to reboot as it may disrupt your RAM content
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  452. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> heh
  453. # [17:10] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip66.unival.com)
  454. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> (about "being careful not to reboot as it may disrupt your RAM content")
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  456. # [17:11] <takkaria> another way would be to write a program which malloc()s progressively more memory without freeing it and saving each chunk todisk
  457. # [17:11] <takkaria> eventually it crashes and you have a dump of free memoryspace
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  459. # [17:12] <Philip`> Except that the OS will zero any pages before giving them to your process
  460. # [17:12] <Philip`> (otherwise it'd be a horrendous security hole)
  461. # [17:12] <takkaria> yeah, that's a point, really
  462. # [17:12] <takkaria> it would have worked on RISC OS
  463. # [17:13] <takkaria> that is all
  464. # [17:14] <Philip`> Would you need to malloc at all in that case, rather than just doing fwrite((void*)0, 1, 0xffffffff, f)"?
  465. # [17:14] <Philip`> s/"//
  466. # [17:16] <takkaria> hmm
  467. # [17:16] <takkaria> I don't know if RISC OS would let you do that
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  473. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> hmm, speaking of fear, I predict the jd-style practice of people putting scare quotes around particular words, an indicator that they fear them, will spread
  474. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> or has already
  475. # [17:35] <beowulf> i'd really like a dummies guide to the @summary issue
  476. # [17:36] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Hmm, I wish more people published indexes from their web "spiders"
  477. # [17:44] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.119.72.173.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  478. # [17:44] <Philip`> beowulf: That would be a nice thing to have, but I'm not aware of any that have been written with biases I agree with :-(
  479. # [17:52] <Midler> whats is it called again, the specs that make it possible to save data localy?
  480. # [17:52] <Midler> (i really sucks when typing in english)
  481. # [17:54] <Philip`> Midler: Do you mean http://dev.w3.org/html5/webstorage/ ?
  482. # [17:54] <takkaria> I don't know if RISC OS would let you do that
  483. # [17:54] * takkaria rms that last line
  484. # [17:55] <Philip`> Someone needs to make an IRC client with an "undo send" feature
  485. # [17:56] * jgraham wonders what rms has to do with it
  486. # [17:56] <takkaria> i guess like gmail's but with a shorter gap before sending
  487. # [17:57] <Midler> Philip`: yup, thars the one. Localstorage
  488. # [18:02] <beowulf> Philip`: then that means people will make their minds up based on which personality they happen to like, or which football team they support, i guess
  489. # [18:05] * Quits: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-36.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  490. # [18:07] <Philip`> beowulf: I don't think that's a great solution, since I don't support any football team
  491. # [18:08] <Philip`> (but I don't care enough about accessibility to try to find or write a suitable document describing the issues)
  492. # [18:08] <Philip`> (so I'll let other people worry about it instead)
  493. # [18:09] * beowulf will be more careful in choosing his metaphors in future
  494. # [18:11] <takkaria> yes, Shelley, "data is ... used to undercut those with experience and expertise in accessibility"
  495. # [18:11] <Philip`> You should choose a metaphor like you choose a wine
  496. # [18:11] <takkaria> that's the only reason people use data
  497. # [18:11] <takkaria> is to undercut other people's expertise
  498. # [18:11] <takkaria> not because it's an acutal grounds for making decisions on or anything
  499. # [18:12] * takkaria rages a bit
  500. # [18:12] <Midler> How does firefox save localstore data?
  501. # [18:12] <Midler> in localstore.rdf?
  502. # [18:12] <takkaria> it uses sqlite
  503. # [18:12] <jgraham> Philip`: I don't drink wine. Does that mean I can't use metaphors?
  504. # [18:12] <Midler> ok
  505. # [18:12] <takkaria> Philip`: what if you just buy cheap red all the time?
  506. # [18:13] <beowulf> Philip`: I don't drink wine, you don't support a football team, we're doomed, doomed I say
  507. # [18:14] <Philip`> This all proves my point about metaphors!
  508. # [18:14] <Philip`> I don't know what my point was, but it's proved nonetheless
  509. # [18:15] <takkaria> in much the same way that bread is proved, I'm assuming
  510. # [18:16] <jgraham> By covering it in clingfilm and leaving it in a warm place? Or are we talking sourdough?
  511. # [18:16] <takkaria> I did that with some curry by accident today
  512. # [18:17] <Philip`> 10g yeast, 500g flour, 295ml warm water, QED?
  513. # [18:17] <takkaria> forgot to put it in the fridge
  514. # [18:18] <jgraham> Philip`: Depends on the type of yeast and the type of flour
  515. # [18:20] <beowulf> are we still talking in code about accessibility?
  516. # [18:20] <beowulf> i'm only slightly less lost than the actual threads on the wg list, if that's the case
  517. # [18:20] <jgraham> beowulf: I was just talking about bread making. What were you talking about?
  518. # [18:20] <jgraham> :)
  519. # [18:20] <jgraham> s/:/;/
  520. # [18:21] <Philip`> http://www09.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+hogshead+of+bread - 2705% of the recommended daily amount of fat? That can't be good
  521. # [18:21] <beowulf> mmm, 2705% rda of fat
  522. # [18:24] * Philip` continues his quest to avoid productive discussion
  523. # [18:28] <takkaria> 2705% rdfa of fat would make some people happier
  524. # [18:39] * Philip` finds a program which appears to have a self-defeating anti-debugging mechanism
  525. # [18:39] <Philip`> If you run an expired trial version, it (presumably) checks some files or registry entries (on Windows) to decide it's expired, and then complains
  526. # [18:40] <Philip`> but if you run Process Monitor, to attempt to see which files/entries it's checking, it appears to skip the checks entirely and acts as if it's non-expired
  527. # [18:40] <Philip`> (presumably to prevent you easily reverse-engineering it and working out what it's checking)
  528. # [18:41] * Joins: jmb^ (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  529. # [18:41] <Philip`> so all you need to do is keeping Process Monitor running in the background all the time
  530. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> x
  531. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> sweet
  532. # [18:44] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  533. # [18:45] <Midler> Or, like my friend did with one app.. Just changed the date for the computer
  534. # [18:45] <Midler> And if u are wondering, its still 1994 for him ;)
  535. # [18:47] <zcorpan_> hsivonen, MikeSmith: "Warning: Attribute with the local name href is not serializable as XML 1.0." - http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fhacks.mozilla.org%2F2009%2F06%2Fhtml5-video-fallbacks-markup%2F
  536. # [18:48] <zcorpan_> also, "Error: The internal character encoding declaration must be the first child of the head element."
  537. # [18:50] <zcorpan_> it seems wordpress inserts <br /> for each new line in the <video> markup
  538. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> great
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  540. # [18:51] <zcorpan_> the algorithm to select a <source> copes, though
  541. # [18:51] <zcorpan_> if it would insert a <p>, then it would not work
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  543. # [18:54] <zcorpan_> i think "Error: Attribute href not allowed here." is supposed to say xmlns:dc, too
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  549. # [18:59] <zcorpan_> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=584
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  551. # [19:03] * MikeSmith reads through hsivonen treebuilder code, feels sense of intimidation setting in
  552. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: I don't get the "Error: The internal character encoding declaration must be the first child of the head element." message
  553. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: I'm hoping the xmlns:dc problem is just an easy-to-fix off-by-one error
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  555. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: oh, actually, I do
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  557. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> but only if I use html5.validator.nu
  558. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> not if I use validator.nu
  559. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> d'oh!
  560. # [19:13] <MikeSmith> (hadn't manually set validator.nu select option to html5)
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  564. # [19:21] * zcorpan_ filed a bug on wordpress http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/10247
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  570. # [19:41] <beowulf> would <span> be allowed in a summary element?
  571. # [19:42] <beowulf> or <p>?
  572. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: fix for "encoding declaration must be the first child" problem checked in
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  597. # [20:37] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: nice
  598. # [20:37] * zcorpan_ notes that there would be much less resistance to just allow summary="" in html5
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  601. # [20:39] <Dashiva> zcorpan_: What design principle is that? :)
  602. # [20:40] <zcorpan_> Dashiva: it's not a design principle
  603. # [20:41] <zcorpan_> "Seems to me that this working group's underlying practice is more to take the path of least resistance," -- http://www.w3.org/mid/643cc0270906230930j1c37cf7dv46e58637d5dda46@mail.gmail.com
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  618. # [21:05] <Hixie> zcorpan_: there would be less resistance from one particular group of people, yes
  619. # [21:05] <Hixie> zcorpan_: my goal though is not to make those peopel happy but to actually measurably improve accessibility
  620. # [21:16] <jgraham> Expertise in the HTMLWG is like penises. Everyone likes to brag about how much they have but when it comes time to do some measurements they become remarkably reluctant to put it on the table.
  621. # [21:16] <Hixie> lol
  622. # [21:17] * takkaria grins
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  627. # [21:51] <annevk2> so summary="" is by default not revealed to end users?
  628. # [21:53] <Hixie> ?
  629. # [21:53] <annevk2> Hixie, at some point earlier today I pointed out that case-insensitive in the new Selectors section was not linked to ASCII case-insensitive
  630. # [21:54] <Hixie> yeah that was somewhat intentional... i was hoping css defined it
  631. # [21:54] <annevk2> Hixie, (the summary="" was about http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jun/0604.html and zcorpan's reply)
  632. # [21:54] <annevk2> Hixie, CSS wants the markup language to define it
  633. # [21:54] <Hixie> oh i'll get to public-html in a few fours
  634. # [21:54] <Hixie> swamped with www-style right now
  635. # [21:55] <annevk2> "The case sensitivity of document language element names, attribute names, and attribute values in selectors depends on the document language." -- http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#casesens
  636. # [21:57] <Hixie> ah, bummer
  637. # [21:57] <Hixie> ok
  638. # [22:01] <Hixie> zcorpan_: technically <video hidden> means "this isn't relevant" and so we should probably make it mute the audio as well
  639. # [22:01] <annevk2> it's sort of nice as it means we could make all attribute values case-sensitive (which I think we should do)
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  641. # [22:02] <Hixie> well we can't make all of them case-sensitive
  642. # [22:02] <Hixie> the ones in the spec are case-insensitive already in at least two browsers
  643. # [22:02] <annevk2> IE until IE7 had everything case-sensitive
  644. # [22:02] <Hixie> IE until IE7 didn't have attribute selectors, did it?
  645. # [22:02] <annevk2> including IE7, I should say
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  649. # [22:10] <Hixie> shelley thinks i'm an expert? even _i_ don't think i'm an expert.
  650. # [22:12] <Philip`> An expert is just a retired pert
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  654. # [22:22] <atwilson> I have a question about built-in constructors, and what the behavior should be if you pass a constructor to a different window or frame.
  655. # [22:24] <atwilson> Let's say I pass the window.XMLHttpRequest constructor into a child frame. That child frame uses the constructor to instantiate an XHR object. Does the XHR object get the origin from the originating window (the window that the XHR constructor came from) or from the calling scope (the child frame)?
  656. # [22:24] <atwilson> I have a similar question about Worker objects, but I figure there's probably a general principle at work here but I don't know where in the spec I might look for it.
  657. # [22:26] <ap> atwilson: I don't remember the rules, but the current behavior is a result of many tweaks and fixes - so there's chance that it's correct
  658. # [22:27] <ap> atwilson: sorry, didn't notice where we are :)
  659. # [22:27] <ap> atwilson: I was talking about WebKit
  660. # [22:27] <atwilson> ap: The reason I ask is the WebKit behavior for XHR differs from the WebKit behavior for Workers.
  661. # [22:27] <atwilson> ap: so I wanted to see the actual spec.
  662. # [22:28] <atwilson> ap: (per the recent webkit-dev thread)
  663. # [22:29] <ap> atwilson: like <http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/#origin-and-base-url>?
  664. # [22:29] <ap> atwilson: I think that annevk2 was going to update that though
  665. # [22:30] <atwilson> ap: yes, but I'm not sure how to parse that spec language.
  666. # [22:31] <atwilson> ap: how does one determine 'which is the Document object associated with the Window object for which the XMLHttpRequest interface was created'?
  667. # [22:32] <ap> atwilson: I think we should wait for Anne to weigh in on whether this text in in flux indeed
  668. # [22:32] <atwilson> Just look up the scope chain to find the global scope, and use the Window object associated with that? Because if that's the spec, then we aren't doing that in WebKit.
  669. # [22:32] <atwilson> Agreed. And I'm only using XHR as an example - the same issue applies to Workers.
  670. # [22:33] <atwilson> ap: Worker lifecycle depends on what document a given Worker is associated with, so making sure we associate with the correct Window is important.
  671. # [22:40] <othermaciej_> atwilson: XMLHttpRequest is totally clear on what to do
  672. # [22:41] <othermaciej_> (in my opinion)
  673. # [22:41] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  674. # [22:41] <othermaciej> and I am quite sure WebKit matches the intended spec behavior
  675. # [22:41] <othermaciej> Web Workers is a bit less clear
  676. # [22:41] <othermaciej> the only use of an original Window or Document would be for resolving a relative script URL against a base
  677. # [22:41] <othermaciej> it says to resolve the URL but it's not very clear about the base
  678. # [22:42] <othermaciej> my assumption is it should work like Location, which would mean the calling function's global object's current document is right
  679. # [22:43] <othermaciej> atwilson: the intent of the spec (as I understand it) is that whenever the XMLHttpRequest object is first instantiated by retrieving it from a particular Window object, it should record that Window object's current Document
  680. # [22:44] <othermaciej> WebKit records the Window instead of the Document
  681. # [22:44] <othermaciej> I can't remember if this makes an observable difference
  682. # [22:44] <othermaciej> there is definitely no looking up the scope chain involved
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  684. # [22:48] <ap> othermaciej: I think the difference is that we record the window in constructor, not just in XMLHttpRequest object
  685. # [22:48] <ap> othermaciej: an I think that Anne was going to update the spec in this regard
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  690. # [22:55] <othermaciej> ap: I see, the spec is probably wrong then
  691. # [22:55] <othermaciej> ap: I find its use of "the XMLHttpRequest object" a little confusing
  692. # [22:55] <othermaciej> hard to tell if it means an instance, or the constructor
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  695. # [22:56] <othermaciej> it's "Window object for which the XMLHttpRequest interface object was created" that is unclear I guess
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  701. # [23:08] <atwilson> othermaciej: yeah, if the spec is updated to reflect that the Window is bound to the constructor rather than to any given instance, then the spec is clear (and matches WebKit).
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  703. # [23:09] <zcorpan_> aren't interface objects and constructors different things?
  704. # [23:09] <zcorpan_> window.XMLHttpRequest - interface object
  705. # [23:09] <zcorpan_> new XMLHttpRequest() - constructor
  706. # [23:10] <atwilson> Hixie: Do you have an opinion about how WebWorkers should work (if I pass window.Worker into a child frame, and then the child frame instantiates a Worker using that passed-in constructor, which document object ends up in that Worker's document set)?
  707. # [23:12] <atwilson> zcorpan_: Quite possibly. I'm trying to find out where 'interface object' is defined in the spec now. I can't find that string in the HTML5 spec when I search for it, although it is referenced in the XHR spec.
  708. # [23:12] <zcorpan_> atwilson: it's defined in webidl
  709. # [23:12] <zcorpan_> constructors too
  710. # [23:13] <atwilson> awesome, I'll look there. Thanks for the pointer.
  711. # [23:14] <zcorpan_> (though maybe a constructor is always also an interface object in implementations?)
  712. # [23:16] <zcorpan_> "An ECMAScript implementation supporting these interfaces would have a [[Construct]] property on the Circle interface object which would return a new object that implements the interface."
  713. # [23:17] <atwilson> The XHR spec is much clearer now, since it's clear that the constructor is bound to the originating window (i.e. var f = window.XMLHttpRequest; var xhr = new f(); yields an XHR object bound to the original window, regardless of what context new f() was invoked in)
  714. # [23:20] <atwilson> It sounds like Workers operate differently, though - the owning document seems to be tied to a "script's global scope".
  715. # [23:20] <atwilson> (section 4.5 of the Web Workers spec)
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  721. # [23:25] <zcorpan_> it seems webidl allows [NoInterfaceObject] [Constructor] interface Foo {}
  722. # [23:25] <zcorpan_> which makes no sense in ecmascript
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  727. # [23:43] <Hixie> atwilson: looking at "if I pass window.Worker into a child frame, and then the child frame instantiates a Worker using that passed-in constructor, which document object ends up in that Worker's document set" now...
  728. # [23:46] <Hixie> atwilson: web workers doesn't say how to resolve the argument to the constructor. will fix that now.
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The end :)