/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-27 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Sat Jun 27 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:15] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-195-175.bredband.comhem.se)
  4. # [00:15] * gsnedders waves
  5. # [00:16] <gsnedders> (From Sweden)
  6. # [00:21] <Midler> lol
  7. # [00:21] <Midler> comhem..
  8. # [00:21] <Midler> gsnedders: I can see that
  9. # [00:29] * Joins: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  10. # [00:36] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  11. # [00:37] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@157.130.31.226)
  12. # [00:44] * Joins: jorlow (n=jorlow@nat/google/x-f123f9ffcb7da5ca)
  13. # [00:51] * Joins: cying_ (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  14. # [00:52] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121.74.138.213)
  15. # [00:53] * Quits: cying_ (n=cying@70.90.171.153) (Remote closed the connection)
  16. # [00:53] * Joins: tantekc (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  17. # [00:53] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  18. # [00:53] * Joins: cying_ (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  19. # [00:53] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  20. # [00:53] * cying_ is now known as cying
  21. # [00:54] * Quits: tantekc (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  22. # [00:55] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  23. # [00:59] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-170-139-223.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  24. # [01:05] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-76-102-55-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  25. # [01:07] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) ("Lost terminal")
  26. # [01:14] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-76-102-13-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  27. # [01:15] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-76-102-13-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  28. # [01:16] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-195-175.bredband.comhem.se)
  29. # [01:20] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  30. # [01:32] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-195-175.bredband.comhem.se)
  31. # [01:33] <gsnedders> ergh. I just realized I left jacket on the bus from the airport.
  32. # [01:33] <Midler> less funny
  33. # [01:33] <Midler> try to call the buscompany
  34. # [01:34] <gsnedders> Between 8 and 23
  35. # [01:34] * gsnedders tries the email option :P
  36. # [01:35] <eighty4> not like you'll need it this week :D
  37. # [01:35] <gsnedders> Indeed.
  38. # [01:35] <gsnedders> But the hoodie would be nice as a pillow :p
  39. # [01:35] <eighty4> 28-29* all week
  40. # [01:35] * eighty4 goes *wheee*
  41. # [01:35] <Midler> yea, for once its hot WEEEE
  42. # [01:35] <Midler> =D
  43. # [01:35] <eighty4> you don't have a pillow?
  44. # [01:35] <gsnedders> No
  45. # [01:35] <gsnedders> I only have bed linen at all because I asked James for some yesterday :P
  46. # [01:36] <Midler> eighty4: he has some hair as ive understood it
  47. # [01:36] <eighty4> Midler: and I have to work like crazy all week
  48. # [01:36] <eighty4> gsnedders: you need ikea
  49. # [01:36] <gsnedders> :P
  50. # [01:36] <gsnedders> I think everything else I need is supermarket stuff
  51. # [01:36] <eighty4> ever been to ikea?
  52. # [01:36] <gsnedders> I'll think of more and more stuff tomorrow morning
  53. # [01:36] <gsnedders> Yes
  54. # [01:36] <eighty4> they have everything :)
  55. # [01:37] <gsnedders> eighty4: Really everything in Sweden? :P
  56. # [01:37] <eighty4> everything you need at least
  57. # [01:37] <eighty4> and if you get hungry they have hotdogs for 5kr
  58. # [01:37] <gsnedders> Power for laundry?
  59. # [01:37] <gsnedders> :P
  60. # [01:38] <eighty4> no, but you don't need that. Not really
  61. # [01:39] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81)
  62. # [01:46] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-486b4e1fd57f18a3)
  63. # [01:48] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-195-175.bredband.comhem.se)
  64. # [01:55] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@084202133045.customer.alfanett.no)
  65. # [02:05] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  66. # [02:05] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  67. # [02:06] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  68. # [02:16] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  69. # [02:16] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@user-64-9-238-38.googlewifi.com)
  70. # [02:19] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@user-64-9-238-38.googlewifi.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  71. # [02:24] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  72. # [02:24] * Parts: Midler (n=midler@95.209.1.191.bredband.tre.se) ("Leaving.")
  73. # [02:28] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.16.228)
  74. # [02:28] * Joins: jacobolu_ (n=jacobolu@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  75. # [02:30] * Quits: jacobolu_ (n=jacobolu@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  76. # [02:30] * Joins: jacobolu_ (n=jacobolu@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  77. # [02:34] * Quits: jennb (n=jennb@72.14.227.1)
  78. # [02:46] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.17.13)
  79. # [02:48] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@hdh-1-pt.tunnel.tserv20.hkg1.ipv6.he.net)
  80. # [02:57] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.17.13)
  81. # [03:01] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  82. # [03:05] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-9c7d848aaa27c300) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  83. # [03:05] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  84. # [03:06] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  85. # [03:15] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus
  86. # [03:21] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-a88fc4060c12f7c3)
  87. # [03:24] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@nat/mozilla/x-2be62b94f4a05bd8)
  88. # [03:30] * Parts: atwilson (n=atwilson@74.125.59.1)
  89. # [03:41] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-199-122.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  90. # [03:42] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.17.13)
  91. # [03:55] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@hdh-1-pt.tunnel.tserv20.hkg1.ipv6.he.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  92. # [04:07] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37) (No route to host)
  93. # [04:34] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-40-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  94. # [04:41] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  95. # [05:07] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-5c45ae8f84650f84) ("->home")
  96. # [05:10] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  97. # [05:10] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  98. # [05:11] * Quits: yshin (n=yshin@72.14.227.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  99. # [05:27] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  100. # [05:28] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  101. # [05:43] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  102. # [05:47] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  103. # [05:56] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  104. # [06:16] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  105. # [06:19] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121.74.138.213)
  106. # [06:23] * Quits: jorlow (n=jorlow@nat/google/x-f123f9ffcb7da5ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  107. # [06:34] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1145-ipbf7105marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  108. # [06:57] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-76-102-55-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  109. # [07:06] * Joins: jorlow (n=jorlow@c-67-180-199-19.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  110. # [07:07] * Quits: jorlow (n=jorlow@c-67-180-199-19.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  111. # [07:11] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
  112. # [07:11] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116) (Remote closed the connection)
  113. # [07:19] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@084202133045.customer.alfanett.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  114. # [07:35] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-76-102-55-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  115. # [07:36] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  116. # [07:39] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-98-248-43-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  117. # [07:51] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-98-248-43-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  118. # [07:51] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-98-248-43-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  119. # [08:04] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  120. # [08:18] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-112.dynamic.amis.net)
  121. # [08:27] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  122. # [08:41] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  123. # [08:41] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  124. # [08:53] <Hixie> jesus christ, took an hour and a half for comcast to solve my problem
  125. # [08:53] <Hixie> including them asking for my MAC address _twice_ despite the support call being an IM session WITH A CHAT LOG
  126. # [08:55] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  127. # [09:09] <eighty4> :)
  128. # [09:09] <eighty4> Not surprising
  129. # [09:19] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-193-23.bredband.comhem.se)
  130. # [09:19] <Hixie> not surprising, but still tiresome :-)
  131. # [09:21] * gsnedders waves tiredly
  132. # [09:25] * gsnedders would head out and wonder, but thinks it is too likely he'll get lost
  133. # [09:28] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yt?
  134. # [09:34] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-199-122.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  135. # [09:42] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  136. # [09:53] * gsnedders could do with some breakfast…
  137. # [09:53] * gsnedders is somewhat limited by the emptiness of this flat
  138. # [09:54] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@host86-154-227-105.range86-154.btcentralplus.com)
  139. # [09:56] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  140. # [10:05] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1145-ipbf7105marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  141. # [10:17] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.117.66.67.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  142. # [10:35] * Quits: ray (i=ray@ipv6.the.ug) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  143. # [10:36] * Joins: ray (i=ray@ipv6.the.ug)
  144. # [10:53] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  145. # [11:16] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  146. # [11:16] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  147. # [11:19] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1145-ipbf7105marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  148. # [11:20] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  149. # [11:20] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z80b7.z.pppool.de)
  150. # [11:25] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-193-23.bredband.comhem.se) ("Adios intarwebs.")
  151. # [11:27] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  152. # [11:27] * Joins: cyclist (n=a@sxanth.static.otenet.gr)
  153. # [11:27] <cyclist> what's the status on HTML comment tags?
  154. # [11:28] <cyclist> For example, in a page i was recently it had:
  155. # [11:28] <cyclist> <!-- comment > text <a href=...>
  156. # [11:28] <cyclist> And althought the comment wasn't properly closed with a "-->", the text appeared
  157. # [11:28] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s5590d015.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  158. # [11:32] * Quits: cyclist (n=a@sxanth.static.otenet.gr) (Remote closed the connection)
  159. # [11:34] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-112.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  160. # [11:51] * Quits: sbublava (n=stephan@77.117.66.67.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  161. # [12:05] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-112.dynamic.amis.net)
  162. # [12:29] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  163. # [12:41] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  164. # [12:44] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  165. # [12:53] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  166. # [13:02] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  167. # [13:08] * Joins: ginger_ (n=nessy@124-170-221-253.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  168. # [13:20] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-170-139-223.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  169. # [13:21] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  170. # [13:27] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@x1-6-00-1f-f3-c7-59-a0.k396.webspeed.dk)
  171. # [13:28] <annevk2> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HowToWriteASpec is nice; hopefully someone will use it :)
  172. # [13:49] <Philip`> http://itpastorn.blogspot.com/2009/06/validation-and-doctype-myths-and.html - <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "null" "null"> - oops
  173. # [13:54] <annevk2> ouch, that page argues for using window.open rather than target=_blank
  174. # [14:11] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  175. # [14:18] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z80b7.z.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  176. # [14:18] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  177. # [14:43] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  178. # [14:54] * Quits: annevk2 (n=annevk@x1-6-00-1f-f3-c7-59-a0.k396.webspeed.dk)
  179. # [14:57] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  180. # [16:59] * Disconnected
  181. # [16:59] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  182. # [16:59] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  183. # [16:59] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  184. # [16:59] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  185. # [17:05] * Joins: jacobolu_ (n=jacobolu@c-76-102-55-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  186. # [17:09] * Quits: ginger_ (n=nessy@124-170-221-253.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  187. # [17:14] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s5590d015.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  188. # [17:22] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-193-23.bredband.comhem.se)
  189. # [17:22] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-98-248-43-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  190. # [17:26] * Joins: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  191. # [17:28] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  192. # [17:34] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  193. # [17:45] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-112.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  194. # [17:46] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-112.dynamic.amis.net)
  195. # [17:50] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  196. # [18:14] <takkaria> wow
  197. # [18:14] <takkaria> "Ian, I don't think that it is fair to imply or assert that longdesc and
  198. # [18:14] <takkaria> summary
  199. # [18:14] <takkaria> do not work in practice."
  200. # [18:14] <takkaria> (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jun/0767.html)
  201. # [18:14] <takkaria> I'm not quite sure who it would be unfair to to assert that longdesc doesn't work in practice
  202. # [18:25] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s5590d015.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  203. # [18:28] <webben> takkaria: I guess the argument is: UA vendors are consulted on whether features work. In the case of accessibility features, AT vendors are a key class of UA vendors who should be consulted.
  204. # [18:28] <webben> (it somewhat sidesteps the problematic nature of actually consulting AT vendors)
  205. # [18:29] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  206. # [18:29] <webben> takkaria: The point about many "bad" summary values not being presented to the user in practice could be taken as an example of the benefits of such consultation.
  207. # [18:30] <takkaria> I was more heading at the longdesc bit
  208. # [18:30] * Joins: Wolfman2000 (n=Wolfman2@cpe-065-184-176-090.ec.res.rr.com)
  209. # [18:30] <takkaria> I mean, there is no data anywhere that supports the idea that longdesc is a useful part of the web platform
  210. # [18:30] <webben> The same may be true of longdesc; the longdesc lottery article didn't (IIRC) test or consult as to what longdesc values are or aren't presented to users.
  211. # [18:31] <Wolfman2000> Morning/afternoon. Is there some way to make this page split into smaller sections? Firefox lags in general when this page is opened. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
  212. # [18:31] <webben> (There may be additional problems with the longdesc/summary values /actually/ presented to users, of course.)
  213. # [18:31] <takkaria> Wolfman2000: add multipage/ on the end of the url
  214. # [18:31] <Philip`> Wolfman2000: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
  215. # [18:31] <takkaria> indeed not, but I did some of the original research for that article, and I really don't know how you can conclude that longdesc works in practice
  216. # [18:31] <Wolfman2000> That works. Thanks.
  217. # [18:33] <takkaria> you can't just go around saying "I don't think it's fair to assert that x" when everything speaks for that assertion and nothing against it
  218. # [18:34] <Wolfman2000> Hmm...Safari 4 seems to handle the singlepage/ fine
  219. # [18:34] * webben has never really bought into the evidence brought to bear in that article, but there we go.
  220. # [18:36] <takkaria> I'm just annoyed at people casting aspersions without giving good reasons for casting them
  221. # [18:37] <webben> I think the comment should have acknowledged that AT vendors are at liberty to join the discussion; and that some AT vendors are already present in the discussion.
  222. # [18:38] <takkaria> I think there's also a big difference here between adding new features and evaluating existing features
  223. # [18:38] <takkaria> if we introduce new a11n features, AT vendors should be consulted
  224. # [18:38] <takkaria> but longdesc/summary are about seeing if an existing experiment has given good results or not
  225. # [18:39] <webben> I don't think there's any difference really.
  226. # [18:39] <webben> As we can see from summary, consultation can change one's interpretation of existing features.
  227. # [18:41] <takkaria> Murray's argument just seem to be suggesting to me that the AT people should say what a11n features we should have, and that's that
  228. # [18:43] <webben> takkaria: I'm not sure that is what Murray is arguing.
  229. # [18:43] <takkaria> maybe I'm wilfully misinterpreting given my own biases :)
  230. # [18:44] <webben> takkaria: Seems to me his argument is: if browser vendors are the ultimate arbiters of features, then why are AT arbiters not the ultimate arbiters of a11y features.
  231. # [18:44] <webben> (earlier in the email he rejects the idea that browser vendors can be trusted to get things right for their users)
  232. # [18:44] <takkaria> well, they are
  233. # [18:45] <takkaria> but the AT vendors tend to refuse to take part in the HTMLWG, so there's not much can be done about that...
  234. # [18:45] <webben> some AT vendors.
  235. # [18:45] <webben> there are certainly options for external consultation
  236. # [18:46] <webben> particularly with opensource projects like NVDA and Orca.
  237. # [18:47] <webben> And to some extent that's happening, if perhaps only rather indirectly - I know e.g. jgraham has been chatting with Marco Zehe (Mozilla a11y, ex-Freedom Scientific guy) in here.
  238. # [18:48] <takkaria> mm
  239. # [18:48] <takkaria> I'm just not sure we need AT people to be there to see that longdesc has failed on the web
  240. # [18:50] <webben> Personally, I find the idea of putting a11y features into a box and putting it at the feet of AT vendors as problematic as it would be to exclude the later from discussions of supposedly non-a11y features.
  241. # [18:50] <webben> there's a lot of accessibility that has little to do with AT.
  242. # [18:50] <webben> but is provided by authoring practice or ordinary browser features.
  243. # [18:51] <webben> I think the argument about the utility of "summary" to sighted users (however we choose to judge on that issue) touches directly on that.
  244. # [18:52] <Dashiva> webben: It also reinforces the view of accessibility as a bolt-on thing
  245. # [18:53] <webben> Dashiva: well the idea of "a11y feature" is itself the idea of a bolt-on thing.
  246. # [18:54] <webben> I don't think the notion "a11y features" might be the province of AT vendors adds much bolt-on-ed-ness.
  247. # [18:55] <Dashiva> The idea itself is author bolt-on, but leaving it to AT makes it a vendor bolt-on too.
  248. # [18:55] * Quits: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  249. # [18:55] <webben> I see what you mean.
  250. # [18:56] <Dashiva> Thinking mainly of ARIA, but there might be other cases
  251. # [18:57] <webben> ARIA, whatever its merits, is indeed an example of AT- rather than accessibility-driven design. But then it was basically conceived as a bolt-on to Dojo widgets so that's not surprising.
  252. # [19:27] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  253. # [19:31] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  254. # [20:01] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-193-23.bredband.comhem.se) ("Adios intarwebs.")
  255. # [20:06] * Joins: Midler (n=midler@95.209.74.139.bredband.tre.se)
  256. # [20:20] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-193-23.bredband.comhem.se)
  257. # [20:31] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus
  258. # [20:42] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) ("going back to danbri.org")
  259. # [20:51] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  260. # [20:53] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s5590d015.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  261. # [20:55] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Client Quit)
  262. # [20:57] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  263. # [20:58] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  264. # [21:17] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1145-ipbf7105marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  265. # [21:18] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  266. # [21:26] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  267. # [22:20] * Quits: shikieso1 (n=shiki@220.109.219.244) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  268. # [22:20] * Quits: cyberpear (n=james@fedora/cyberpear) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  269. # [22:20] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@p2101-ipbf204hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  270. # [22:20] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-193-23.bredband.comhem.se) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  271. # [22:20] * Quits: Wolfman2000 (n=Wolfman2@cpe-065-184-176-090.ec.res.rr.com) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  272. # [22:20] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@li30-216.members.linode.com) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  273. # [22:20] * Quits: hsivonen (n=hsivonen@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  274. # [22:20] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  275. # [22:20] * Quits: eighty4 (n=eighty4@eighty4.se) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  276. # [22:20] * Quits: ukai (n=ukai@220.109.219.244) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  277. # [22:20] * Quits: campd_ (n=dave@li5-166.members.linode.com) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  278. # [22:20] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z80b7.z.pppool.de) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  279. # [22:20] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@webvm.net) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  280. # [22:20] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  281. # [22:20] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-58-6.dyn.iinet.net.au) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  282. # [22:20] * Quits: jtcranmer (n=jcranmer@ltsp1.csl.tjhsst.edu) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  283. # [22:20] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  284. # [22:20] * Quits: michaeln (n=michaeln@nat/google/x-649e08c808713584) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  285. # [22:20] * Quits: iugrina (n=iugrina@brale.math.hr) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  286. # [22:20] * Quits: beowulf (i=wiglaf@ps4552.dreamhost.com) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  287. # [22:20] * Quits: VeXocide (i=vexocide@snail.stack.nl) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  288. # [22:20] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-112.dynamic.amis.net) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  289. # [22:20] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  290. # [22:20] * Quits: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  291. # [22:20] * Quits: sicking (n=chatzill@nat/mozilla/x-aaf771634b6ae8af) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  292. # [22:20] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  293. # [22:20] * Quits: Rik|work (n=Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  294. # [22:20] * Quits: Yudai_ (n=Yudai@p929c7b.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  295. # [22:20] * Quits: scherkus (n=scherkus@72.14.227.1) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  296. # [22:20] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  297. # [22:21] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@host86-154-227-105.range86-154.btcentralplus.com) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  298. # [22:21] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@68.49.245.59) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  299. # [22:21] * Quits: drry (n=drry@mc169.opt2.point.ne.jp) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  300. # [22:21] * Quits: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.co.uk) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  301. # [22:21] * Quits: Midler (n=midler@95.209.74.139.bredband.tre.se) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  302. # [22:21] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  303. # [22:21] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@084202133045.customer.alfanett.no) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  304. # [22:21] * Quits: Hixie (i=ianh@trivini.no) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  305. # [22:21] * Quits: hamaji (n=hamaji@220.109.219.244) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  306. # [22:21] * Quits: peritus- (n=peritus@ircbridge.mahner.org) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  307. # [22:21] * Quits: deltab (n=deltab@82-36-30-34.cable.ubr02.smal.blueyonder.co.uk) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  308. # [22:21] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  309. # [22:21] * Quits: tiglionabbit (n=nick@67-207-136-95.slicehost.net) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  310. # [22:21] * Quits: broquaint (i=22a275c5@spc1-brig11-0-0-cust544.asfd.broadband.ntl.com) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  311. # [22:21] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  312. # [22:21] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  313. # [22:21] * Quits: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  314. # [22:21] * Quits: theanxy (n=wzajac@student.agh.edu.pl) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  315. # [22:21] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  316. # [22:21] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-40-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  317. # [22:21] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@m223j.studby.ntnu.no) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  318. # [22:21] * Quits: riven (n=colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  319. # [22:21] * Quits: onar (n=onar@17.226.20.255) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  320. # [22:21] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  321. # [22:21] * Quits: inimino (n=inimino@atekomi.inimino.org) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  322. # [22:21] * Quits: ray (i=ray@ipv6.the.ug) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  323. # [22:21] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-76-102-55-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  324. # [22:21] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  325. # [22:21] * Quits: tyoshino (n=tyoshino@220.109.219.244) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  326. # [22:21] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-150-136-214.rmo.bellsouth.net) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  327. # [22:21] * Quits: jgraham (n=jgraham@web22.webfaction.com) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  328. # [22:21] * Quits: wakaba (n=wakaba@68.63.138.58.dy.bbexcite.jp) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  329. # [22:21] * Quits: othree (n=othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  330. # [22:21] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  331. # [22:21] * Quits: syp_ (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  332. # [22:21] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  333. # [22:21] * Quits: ezyang (n=ezyang@VINEGAR-POT.MIT.EDU) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  334. # [22:21] * Quits: jcranmer (n=jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  335. # [22:26] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Nick collision)
  336. # [22:26] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  337. # [22:26] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  338. # [22:26] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  339. # [22:26] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-193-23.bredband.comhem.se)
  340. # [22:26] * Joins: Midler (n=midler@95.209.74.139.bredband.tre.se)
  341. # [22:26] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  342. # [22:26] * Joins: Wolfman2000 (n=Wolfman2@cpe-065-184-176-090.ec.res.rr.com)
  343. # [22:26] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-112.dynamic.amis.net)
  344. # [22:26] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  345. # [22:26] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-76-102-55-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  346. # [22:26] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z80b7.z.pppool.de)
  347. # [22:26] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@084202133045.customer.alfanett.no)
  348. # [22:26] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  349. # [22:26] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  350. # [22:26] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  351. # [22:26] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  352. # [22:26] * Joins: ray (i=ray@ipv6.the.ug)
  353. # [22:26] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@host86-154-227-105.range86-154.btcentralplus.com)
  354. # [22:26] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  355. # [22:26] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  356. # [22:26] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-40-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  357. # [22:26] * Joins: cyberpear (n=james@fedora/cyberpear)
  358. # [22:26] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@68.49.245.59)
  359. # [22:26] * Joins: inimino (n=inimino@atekomi.inimino.org)
  360. # [22:26] * Joins: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@m223j.studby.ntnu.no)
  361. # [22:26] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-58-6.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  362. # [22:26] * Joins: tiglionabbit (n=nick@67-207-136-95.slicehost.net)
  363. # [22:26] * Joins: eighty4 (n=eighty4@eighty4.se)
  364. # [22:27] * Joins: Hixie (i=ianh@trivini.no)
  365. # [22:27] * Joins: shikieso1 (n=shiki@220.109.219.244)
  366. # [22:27] * Joins: tyoshino (n=tyoshino@220.109.219.244)
  367. # [22:27] * Joins: ukai (n=ukai@220.109.219.244)
  368. # [22:27] * Joins: hamaji (n=hamaji@220.109.219.244)
  369. # [22:27] * Joins: riven (n=colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
  370. # [22:27] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  371. # [22:27] * Joins: iugrina (n=iugrina@brale.math.hr)
  372. # [22:27] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@li30-216.members.linode.com)
  373. # [22:27] * Joins: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@p2101-ipbf204hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp)
  374. # [22:27] * Joins: hsivonen (n=hsivonen@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi)
  375. # [22:27] * Joins: campd_ (n=dave@li5-166.members.linode.com)
  376. # [22:27] * Joins: drry (n=drry@mc169.opt2.point.ne.jp)
  377. # [22:27] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-150-136-214.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  378. # [22:27] * Joins: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  379. # [22:27] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@68.63.138.58.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  380. # [22:27] * Joins: broquaint (i=22a275c5@spc1-brig11-0-0-cust544.asfd.broadband.ntl.com)
  381. # [22:27] * Joins: sicking (n=chatzill@nat/mozilla/x-aaf771634b6ae8af)
  382. # [22:27] * Joins: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.co.uk)
  383. # [22:27] * Joins: michaeln (n=michaeln@nat/google/x-649e08c808713584)
  384. # [22:27] * Joins: jgraham (n=jgraham@web22.webfaction.com)
  385. # [22:27] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  386. # [22:27] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  387. # [22:27] * Joins: othree (n=othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw)
  388. # [22:27] * Joins: jtcranmer (n=jcranmer@ltsp1.csl.tjhsst.edu)
  389. # [22:27] * Joins: peritus- (n=peritus@ircbridge.mahner.org)
  390. # [22:27] * Joins: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  391. # [22:27] * Joins: Rik|work (n=Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net)
  392. # [22:27] * Joins: Yudai_ (n=Yudai@p929c7b.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp)
  393. # [22:27] * Joins: ezyang (n=ezyang@VINEGAR-POT.MIT.EDU)
  394. # [22:27] * Joins: theanxy (n=wzajac@student.agh.edu.pl)
  395. # [22:27] * Joins: onar (n=onar@17.226.20.255)
  396. # [22:27] * Joins: hendry (n=hendry@webvm.net)
  397. # [22:27] * Joins: beowulf (i=wiglaf@ps4552.dreamhost.com)
  398. # [22:27] * Joins: VeXocide (i=vexocide@snail.stack.nl)
  399. # [22:27] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  400. # [22:27] * Joins: deltab (n=deltab@82-36-30-34.cable.ubr02.smal.blueyonder.co.uk)
  401. # [22:27] * Joins: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  402. # [22:27] * Joins: scherkus (n=scherkus@72.14.227.1)
  403. # [22:27] * Joins: syp_ (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch)
  404. # [22:27] * Joins: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
  405. # [22:27] * Joins: jcranmer (n=jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu)
  406. # [22:31] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  407. # [22:44] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  408. # [22:49] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-112.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  409. # [22:55] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z80b7.z.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  410. # [22:58] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  411. # [23:05] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  412. # [23:13] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@host86-154-227-105.range86-154.btcentralplus.com) ("ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  413. # [23:16] * Quits: shikieso1 (n=shiki@220.109.219.244) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  414. # [23:16] * Joins: shikieso1 (n=shiki@220.109.219.244)
  415. # [23:24] * Quits: shikieso1 (n=shiki@220.109.219.244) (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  416. # [23:27] * Joins: shikieso1 (n=shiki@220.109.219.244)
  417. # Session Close: Sun Jun 28 00:00:00 2009

The end :)