/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 29 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  31. # [02:52] <annodomini> Are there any features in HTML5 (other than the different parsing rules) that are currently available only in the HTML syntax and not in the XHTML syntax?
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  36. # [03:12] <MikeSmith> annodomini: lack of support for content from arbitrary namespaces
  37. # [03:20] <annodomini> MikeSmith: That's a feature missing from the HTML syntax, right? I'm wondering if I'll be missing anything (other than HTML parsing, and IE compatibility) if I use XHTML.
  38. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> annodomini: lack of support for content from arbitrary namespaces could be considered an actual feature, not a missing feature
  39. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> annodomini: anyway, no, you're not going to be missing anything
  40. # [03:22] <annodomini> Ah, now I see.
  41. # [03:23] <MikeSmith> but a big caveat is that if you are dynamically aggregating content from other places, you need to be very careful to make sure that content doesn't contain any well-formedness errors
  42. # [03:24] <annodomini> Right, that's why I mentioned the HTML parser.
  43. # [03:28] <Hixie> annodomini: <noscript>
  44. # [03:28] <Hixie> annodomini: maybe a few others
  45. # [03:28] <Hixie> annodomini: <svg> and <mathml> without the namespace stuff
  46. # [03:30] <annodomini> Hixie: Sure, you're going to have to use namespaces if you're using XML. I'm curious why <noscript> isn't supported?
  47. # [03:31] <Hixie> <noscript> is implemented as a weird parsing hack
  48. # [03:31] <Hixie> the parser actually acts differently for script-enabled browsers vs script-disabled
  49. # [03:31] <heycam> document.write() is another one
  50. # [03:31] <Hixie> which we can't do in xml
  51. # [03:31] <Hixie> yep, document.write() doesn't work in xml either
  52. # [03:32] <annodomini> Hmm. OK, so there's a non-trivial set of functionality that's not available in the XHTML syntax. Good to know.
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  54. # [03:34] <Hixie> nothing good is missing :-)
  55. # [03:42] <annodomini> I'm basically wondering if I want to use XSLT to generate HTML5, if I should be trying to use XML output or HTML output.
  56. # [03:42] <annodomini> If it's just parser hacks like <noscript> and document.write(), I can probably work with XML.
  57. # [03:43] <Hixie> i'd suggest not using xslt, but xml output should be good if you do want to use it (not sure how it works with IE though)
  58. # [03:44] <annodomini> Why would you recommend against xslt? I'm just looking into it now, so I'm curious what the disadvantages are.
  59. # [03:45] <Hixie> i'm just biased against it because i get a headache when i try to use it :-)
  60. # [03:45] <heycam> i heartily recommend xslt!
  61. # [03:45] <heycam> xslt2, that is. xslt1 is slightly painful.
  62. # [03:46] <annodomini> (according to my googling, you can cram xhtml through IE if you lie about its mime type and leave off the XML processing instruction because it triggers quirks mode)
  63. # [03:47] <annodomini> Hixie: Ah, OK. I'll decide on whether it hurts my head once I use it a bit more. At a quick glance it looks fairly reasonable for using as a basic template system; I wouldn't want to use it for much more than that.
  64. # [03:48] <Hixie> i tried to use it to turn an xml file of numbers into an html file of slightly different numbers and that didn't go well
  65. # [03:48] <Hixie> that probably soured my opinion of it
  66. # [03:48] <Hixie> though generally speaking i'm scared of anything that's turing complete using angle brackets in the basic syntax
  67. # [03:48] <Hixie> e.g. also C++ templates :-)
  68. # [03:52] <annodomini> heycam: What are the benefits of xslt2?
  69. # [03:52] <annodomini> And do the browsers support it? I'm using browser xslt support for quickly testing thing out.
  70. # [03:52] <heycam> annodomini, two that i find useful are being able to define your own functions with <xsl:function>
  71. # [03:53] <heycam> and being able to tunnel template parameters
  72. # [03:53] <heycam> so you don't need to explicitly pass them in
  73. # [03:53] <heycam> i don't think any browsers support xslt2
  74. # [03:53] <heycam> i just use saxon for offline document processing
  75. # [03:53] <MikeSmith> lack of document.write() support in XHTML is a feature
  76. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> support for document.write() in HTML is a bug
  77. # [03:55] <annodomini> Yeah, I don't mind losing that.
  78. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> annodomini: fwiw, I use XSLT1 for generating HTML for some things. It is painful in places, but I guess I've learned what the limitations and problems are and how to deal with them.
  79. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> I've been too lazy to learn XSLT2
  80. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> when I have time, I plan to learn it by stealing from XSLT2 work that heycam did recently for generating the SVG spec
  81. # [03:59] <annodomini> I'm looking at it only as a basic template system, and not anything fancy, so I think I'll stick with XSLT1 for now.
  82. # [04:00] <heycam> annodomini, when you get to the point where you're writing recursive templates to step through strings a character at a time to do some simple string manipulation, that's when you know it's time to upgrade to xslt2
  83. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> yeah
  84. # [04:00] <annodomini> Right. Sounds good.
  85. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> limitations on string manipulation in XSLT1 is a joke
  86. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> though there are some EXSLT things that most XSLT processors
  87. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> extensions that make some things easier
  88. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie: does the spec define where escaping text spans are allowed?
  89. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> are they only allowed in CDATA and RCDATA elements?
  90. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> or are they allowed in normal elements and foreign elements?
  91. # [04:11] <MikeSmith> hmm, I guess the answer is that anything that might look like any escaping text span in normal elements or foreign elements is actually a comment
  92. # [04:12] <MikeSmith> and that anything that looks like a comment in CDATA or RCDATA contents is actually an escaping text span
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  95. # [04:24] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I think it's a mistake to use the term "CDATA elements" in the spec
  96. # [04:24] <MikeSmith> It would be worthwhile to try to come up with some better term
  97. # [04:24] <Hixie> file a bug if you come up with a better term :-)
  98. # [04:24] <Hixie> afk
  99. # [04:25] <MikeSmith> OK
  100. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> (problem with the word "CDATA" is that SGML jackasses managed to ensure that there would forever be ambiguity and confusion around it - http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/cdata.html)
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  105. # [05:36] <Dashiva> Is it just me, or is Shelley sounding kinda like a conspiracy theorist lately...
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  132. # [07:48] <annevk2> fwiw, UTF-8+names is not an actual encoding
  133. # [07:48] <annevk2> why did it end up in the spec?
  134. # [07:49] <hsivonen> feed autodetection is just a blog post, too :-)
  135. # [07:50] <hsivonen> but UTF-8+names definitely shoudln't be in any spec
  136. # [07:50] <hsivonen> having variants of UTF-8 around is evil
  137. # [07:50] <hsivonen> like CESU-8
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  139. # [07:54] <Dashiva> If they're going to move it into unicode, doesn't it make sense to use the unicode names?
  140. # [07:56] <hsivonen> whose "they" and is UTF-8+names anything but a blog post that went nowhere?
  141. # [07:56] <Dashiva> Apparently there's an i-d
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  149. # [08:24] <Philip`> Dashiva: There's a thing written with xml2rfc and linked from a blog post, but that seems to be about it
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  166. # [09:37] <takkaria> all these debates about data on htmlwg remind me of a line from Stephen Colbert
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  168. # [09:39] <takkaria> "Statistics are just collections of facts, facts about the real world, and as we all know, reality has a liberal bias"
  169. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> heh
  170. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> brilliant
  171. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> takkaria: you quoted that wrong
  172. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> [[
  173. # [09:40] <takkaria> I'm sure I did, I couldn't find an accurate quote online
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  175. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> takkaria: no, not that
  176. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> [[
  177. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> Statistics are just collections of "facts", "facts" about the real world, and as we all know, "reality" has a liberal bias.
  178. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> ]]
  179. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> never forget your scare quotes, grasshopper
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  181. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> have you learned nothing for your Shaolin training?
  182. # [09:42] <takkaria> no :'(
  183. # [09:42] <takkaria> it is pretty bad when people making serious arguments start reminding me of Colbert, though
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  185. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> takkaria: well, arguments of partisans from both/all sides remind me of Colbert sometimes
  186. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> or Beckett
  187. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> and everybody gets their turn to abuse the scare quotes
  188. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> that's the great fun of them
  189. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> scare quotes discriminate against no one
  190. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> they welcome all of us to use the freely and liberally when they suit or purposes or agenda
  191. # [09:46] <Philip`> As long as nobody dares use unbalanced quotes, I'm happy
  192. # [09:48] <Philip`> Hmph, Google retiring Page Creator will break some of my canvas tests :-(
  193. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> Philip`: that makes me think, I dispense with using scare quotes at all, and just say at the end of each message, (scare quotes implied)
  194. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> that leaves it up to reader to insert them where necessary
  195. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> adds some interactivity
  196. # [09:49] <Philip`> Adds some "interactivity", eh?
  197. # [09:50] <Philip`> Wow, you're right
  198. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> you got it, man
  199. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> we're starting a new trend
  200. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> #whatwg innovating, as usual (scare quotes implied)
  201. # [09:51] * takkaria grins
  202. # [09:51] * takkaria grins (sscare quotes implied)
  203. # [09:51] <takkaria> yeah, I prefer the latter
  204. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> heh
  205. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> on that note, I got to drop off
  206. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> back later
  207. # [09:51] <Dashiva> "takkaria" grins
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  222. # [10:37] <takkaria> Dashiva: how Zen
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  227. # [10:59] <jgraham> BTW I had a look at the mozilla layout table detection code and it is really really simple but hard to implement outside a browser because it requires access to computed style
  228. # [10:59] <jgraham> I supsect it is not that effective but it would be interesting to test
  229. # [10:59] <takkaria> heh, Shelley is brilliant
  230. # [11:01] <Philip`> jgraham: That also makes it hard to execute on a large sample of pages, because you need to have downloaded all the stylesheets too, so you can only really run it live and not on pre-downloaded sets of pages
  231. # [11:02] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes, I know
  232. # [11:05] <Philip`> takkaria: Because of some specific quote, or just in general?
  233. # [11:06] <takkaria> "However, perhaps if there were more people involved in both the effort and the decision process, you wouldn't have to resort to such trickery. Because this form of trickery will not succeed.", amongst others
  234. # [11:06] <Philip`> s/quote/email or blog post or blog comment or Twittering/
  235. # [11:06] <takkaria> and the brilliant accusations of Hixie having a bias against experts
  236. # [11:07] <Hixie> i couldn't work out what she meant by trickery, that came out of left field for me
  237. # [11:07] <takkaria> I would love to know what Shelley's mental caricature of Hixie is
  238. # [11:08] <Philip`> takkaria: Ah, okay - I didn't bother reading any emails in that thread that were longer than my screen
  239. # [11:08] <takkaria> Hixie: I can't figure it out either, maybe she's accusing you of tricking people into thinking you're unbiased or something?
  240. # [11:09] <takkaria> but it won't succeed, so you shouldn't bother trying
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  246. # [11:11] <Dashiva> Sometimes I get curious about what would happen if Hixie said "Okay, whatever" and stopped editing the W3C version. It's a shame we can't spawn a parallel universe to see the outcome without having to suffer it ourselves.
  247. # [11:12] * Joins: cyberpear (n=james@fedora/cyberpear)
  248. # [11:14] <takkaria> Nick Levinson is also an eternal source of amusement
  249. # [11:15] <takkaria> I think he must just not quite grok how the web works
  250. # [11:16] <Dashiva> Does he realize that downloading a web page to view it is already copying the contents? We're pirates just by using browsers.
  251. # [11:19] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  252. # [11:20] <takkaria> there's a FOX News clip I saw where there's a congressman talking about his effort to make 2010 the "Year of the Bible". there's a bit in it where he talks about the government "stealing our children's futures" by the way we're dealing with the recession, and I couldn't help thinking "it's alright, they'll find new ones on piratebay"
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  255. # [11:30] <Philip`> Fortunately human population numbers are increasing, so if we steal from future generations then we'll each get a significant benefit and the costs will be much more diluted by the time future generations have to pay for them
  256. # [11:31] <jgraham> Philip`: Aren't populations only increasing in poor areas of the world?
  257. # [11:31] <jgraham> s/only/mainly/ I guess
  258. # [11:31] <Philip`> Also, standards of living increase over time, so we're stealing from the rich (i.e. future people) and giving to the poor (i.e. us)
  259. # [11:32] <takkaria> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F25hYD5vs_4 it's quite a brilliant little clip actually
  260. # [11:32] <Philip`> jgraham: That's a bonus, since those people will end up paying a larger share of the costs instead of our children
  261. # [11:32] <takkaria> he tries to sell making 2010 year of the bible as "it's all about freedom, really"
  262. # [11:33] * Joins: remysharp (n=remyshar@remysharp.plus.com)
  263. # [11:33] <Dashiva> Freedom to follow rules
  264. # [11:35] <takkaria> he even lets himself go on a mini-rant about the state taking all of our money and private property at teh end, proper republican stuff
  265. # [11:35] <takkaria> and presumably our children's futures, too
  266. # [11:36] <Philip`> Does everyone on American TV always shout, or is it just bad audio balancing in that clip?
  267. # [11:36] <takkaria> on Fox, they generally shout
  268. # [11:37] <Dashiva> Is anything Nick wrote in this last post on-topic?
  269. # [11:38] <remysharp> hi there, regarding the implementation status popup on the spec page - are the implementation statuses maintained, i.e. updated regularly?
  270. # [11:38] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121.74.138.213)
  271. # [11:38] <remysharp> I'm specifically looking at DnD - my tests have it working in Firefox 3.5 *only* - and not webkit as the docs suggest
  272. # [11:40] <Philip`> remysharp: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/appleapplications/conceptual/safarijsprogtopics/Tasks/DragAndDrop.html makes it sound like it's implemented in WebKit
  273. # [11:43] <remysharp> Looks aren't everything ;-)
  274. # [11:43] <remysharp> s/look/sound/
  275. # [11:43] <remysharp> darnit - anyway.
  276. # [11:44] <remysharp> no - it doesn't work for love nor money when I've tried it.
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  278. # [11:44] <Rik`> remysharp: webkit implements DnD pretty much like IE
  279. # [11:44] <remysharp> and I believe I've tried taking fairly tiny steps
  280. # [11:45] <Rik`> remysharp: http://www.whatwg.org/demos/2008-sept/dnd/dnd.html
  281. # [11:48] <remysharp> right, that's perfect - thanks. I need to compare against what and where I got my code from...
  282. # [11:48] <remysharp> thanks!
  283. # [12:03] <remysharp> sorry Rik` one last thing - I've just been testing now, and finding that I can't drag a div (which is the source of all my problems!) is that outlined in the specs, and I've just missed it?
  284. # [12:04] <Rik`> in webkit you'll have to use -webkit-user-drag: element
  285. # [12:05] <remysharp> good lord. okay, thanks - perfect - that cracked it
  286. # [12:06] <remysharp> native DnD is suppose to ease the burden of having pure JS solutions, but having to jump though random hoops like that (via webkit) just make it harder :-(
  287. # [12:06] <Rik`> this is a recent API
  288. # [12:07] <remysharp> yeah, I guess that's fair enough.
  289. # [12:07] <remysharp> one more question if you don't mind?
  290. # [12:08] <remysharp> I couldn't get the DnD to start in Firefox unless I specifically used dataTransfer.setData - is it a requirement that /something/ should be including in the drag
  291. # [12:08] <remysharp> ?
  292. # [12:09] <Rik`> i don't know
  293. # [12:09] <remysharp> I meant more from the spec pov - or same answer? :-)
  294. # [12:09] <Rik`> the mozilla documentation is pretty complete normally
  295. # [12:09] <Rik`> I just played with that on friday which is why I have some answers :)
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  310. # [13:10] <Hixie> ok, content models should be easier to navigate now
  311. # [13:10] <Hixie> because the category definitions have the list of elements that aply
  312. # [13:10] <Hixie> apply
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  314. # [13:15] <Lachy> Hixie, it would be easier to have a table of all elements that indicated which categories each is in
  315. # [13:15] <Hixie> we'll have that later too
  316. # [13:15] <Lachy> I had planned to make a table for that
  317. # [13:15] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#index
  318. # [13:15] <Lachy> ok
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  323. # [13:37] <takkaria> hmm, abarth's sniffing draft doesn't define behaviour for application/octet-stream
  324. # [13:38] <gavin_> is that ever sniffed?
  325. # [13:38] <gavin_> I thought that was consistently ignored by all sniffers
  326. # [13:39] <takkaria> not by Opera, it seems
  327. # [13:39] <takkaria> and IE's docs say that it tries to determine whether it's text or binary and does stuff based on that
  328. # [13:41] <takkaria> it certainly seems that it's worth sniffing some application/octet-stream stuff, like video or audio, just so the UA knows what app to hand it off to
  329. # [13:41] <Lachy> http://html5doctor.com/
  330. # [13:44] * ap|away is now known as ap
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  332. # [14:26] <Lachy> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1055214/is-there-a-way-to-make-html5-video-fullscreen
  333. # [14:27] <Lachy> it's a shame we don't have an API to make full screen videos
  334. # [14:27] <Lachy> IMHO, the arguments against doing so are bogus, since Flash can already do it
  335. # [14:29] <Philip`> Do the arguments include the argument that you could take a screenshot of a browser then put it in <video> then make it fullscreen and spoof the browser chrome?
  336. # [14:29] <Lachy> although, it's entirely possible for browsers to provide their own full screen UI
  337. # [14:30] <Philip`> At least Flash has a popup message saying to press Escape to leave fullscreen mode, or whatever it says
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  339. # [14:30] <Philip`> (though irritatingly my keyboard's volume keys also cause it to leave fullscreen mode)
  340. # [14:30] <Lachy> sure, and there's no reason a browser couldn't do something similar
  341. # [14:31] <Lachy> a browser would likeliy have to show video controls when the mouse moves anyway, which makes it even more difficult for such an attack to be successful
  342. # [14:31] <roc> there are clever ways to neutralize that popup message
  343. # [14:31] <Lachy> roc, how?
  344. # [14:32] <roc> I can't find the link
  345. # [14:33] <Lachy> if it is possible, it seems like it would have to be a bug in Flash
  346. # [14:33] <roc> basically you display a lot of messages on the screen that look just like Flash's one
  347. # [14:33] <roc> the user is totally confused and doesn't know which one to read
  348. # [14:33] <roc> then it all goes away and you carry on
  349. # [14:34] <gavin_> it's a bug in humans ;)
  350. # [14:34] <roc> I do think we should support fullscreen video
  351. # [14:35] <roc> but I think it shouldn't be under script control
  352. # [14:35] <Philip`> You could show some text saying "Close your eyes for five seconds, then open them again for a surprise!", then switch to fullscreen while the user's eyes are closed
  353. # [14:35] <Lachy> ok, file a bug with The Human Genome Project to get that fixed.
  354. # [14:36] <roc> alright, sleep time
  355. # [14:36] * roc is now known as rocSleep
  356. # [14:36] <Lachy> Philip`, browsers would have to apply techniques similar to popup blockers, so that a script can't enter full screen without the user clicking
  357. # [14:36] <Lachy> (or some other user interaction)
  358. # [14:37] <Philip`> You could show some text saying "Close your eyes, click your mouse, wait five seconds, then open your eyes again for a surprise!", then switch to fullscreen while the user's eyes are closed
  359. # [14:37] <Lachy> browsers should of course provide their own native full screen UI, such as double clicking the video or selecting full screen from the context menu
  360. # [14:38] <Lachy> but then the user would probably move their mouse, see the video controls and realise that it's a video.
  361. # [14:39] <Lachy> Also, the attacker would have a hard time mimicking a user's individual desktop to to fool the user that easily
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  363. # [14:41] <Lachy> basically, until someone can deomonstrate a practical attack vector that isn't simply hypothesising about ludicrous scenarious, I won't believe it's a serious issue
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  366. # [14:45] <Lachy> also, the attack has to have some benefit. Simply being able to show something on a user's screen isn't really useful, unless it could somehow be used to, e.g., steal passwords or gain unauthorised access
  367. # [14:46] <rocSleep> I sympathize with that point of view. However, there have been several cases of people saying that, and then going ahead and standardizing behaviour which everyone ends up depending on, and then those ludicrous scenarios become reality
  368. # [14:46] <rocSleep> :visited-based history sniffing for example
  369. # [14:47] <Philip`> I'd guess a useful fullscreen mode would need to allow pages to supply custom controls, for the same reasons that non-fullscreen <video> allows custom controls
  370. # [14:47] <Lachy> rocSleep, not doing something because of some unproven hypothetical attack vectors that don't accually allow an attacker to do anything is silly
  371. # [14:47] <Philip`> in which case you could use the custom controls to interact with the fooled user
  372. # [14:47] <Lachy> Philip`, no custom controls on full screen video
  373. # [14:48] <Philip`> Lachy: That makes it much less useful
  374. # [14:48] <Lachy> that would be a silly and unnecessary thing to allow
  375. # [14:48] <gavin_> I don't think fullscreen video would need to allow custom controls to be useful
  376. # [14:48] <Lachy> no it doesn't
  377. # [14:48] <Philip`> Why would it be more silly and unnecessary than on non-fullscreen videos?
  378. # [14:48] <Lachy> when a user goes full screen, the browser's native controls should be sufficient
  379. # [14:48] <gavin_> and I don't think a custom-control-less fullscreen would be "must less useful"
  380. # [14:49] <gavin_> just like I don't think custom-control-less normal <video> isn't "must less useful"
  381. # [14:49] <Lachy> because custom controls generally need to integrate with the page design. But in full screen mode, the rest of the page isn't visible, so that
  382. # [14:49] <Lachy> isn't as necessary
  383. # [14:50] <Lachy> it would also be much more a much more difficult thing to do, since you'd have to somehow allow the user to overlay HTML content on top of the full screen video, which is outside of the normal browser viewport
  384. # [14:51] <Lachy> s/the user/the author/
  385. # [14:52] <gavin_> bah, how did I manage to type "must" intead of "much" twice?
  386. # [14:53] <Philip`> So if e.g. the BBC iPlayer wants to have a button to enable display of subtitles, and wants to switch from Flash to <video>, it will no longer be able to do that?
  387. # [14:53] <Philip`> (...in fullscreen mode)
  388. # [14:53] <Lachy> hmm, I didn't notice. I read "much" in both cases anyway :-)
  389. # [14:54] <gavin_> perhaps not
  390. # [14:54] <gavin_> but that doesn't mean that the feature is "much less useful"
  391. # [14:54] <Lachy> the browser would have to provide UI for enabling subtitles
  392. # [14:54] <gavin_> only that it doesn't address that specific use case
  393. # [14:54] <Philip`> Well, "less useful" then :-)
  394. # [14:54] <Lachy> Philip`, can you send me a link to a iplayer video with subtitles so that I can see how it works?
  395. # [14:54] <Philip`> Lachy: Not unless you have a UK IP address
  396. # [14:55] * Lachy connects to a UK based VPN to bypass the regional restrictions
  397. # [14:55] <Philip`> Ah
  398. # [14:55] <Philip`> Lachy: Try e.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00lkmth/Top_Gear_Series_13_Episode_2_(new_series)/ and then play and wait a few seconds until the actual programme starts
  399. # [14:56] <Philip`> and then look for the "S" button
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  418. # [15:48] <jgraham> I wonder if it is OK to make new years resolutions in June?
  419. # [15:49] <jmb> sure. just define a year as the period of time running from one June to the next
  420. # [15:49] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  421. # [15:49] <Philip`> The start of the year is entirely arbitrary, so it's just as good to pick any other time
  422. # [15:50] <Philip`> The length of the year isn't so arbitrary, given the planet we live on - you might be considered weird if you intend your resolution to last for a Martian year instead
  423. # [15:53] <jgraham> The length of the year seems irrelevant since new year's resolutions are defined to start at a time and theoretically last forever but in practice generaly last a few days
  424. # [15:56] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  425. # [15:56] <Philip`> But Wikipedia says "While the traditional time to make New Year's resolutions is New Year's Day, it is perfectly acceptable to wait until late January, or even early February to make these goals." so presumably June is unacceptable
  426. # [15:56] * Quits: cyberpear (n=james@fedora/cyberpear) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  427. # [15:58] <jgraham> Oh. well that's no use
  428. # [15:58] <Phae> you could lump it in with general "spring cleaning" type jobs.
  429. # [16:00] * gsnedders hopes he has a working computer now
  430. # [16:01] <Philip`> gsnedders: Your presence here suggests that you do
  431. # [16:04] <Philip`> "Thank you for your past interest in VMware. As part of our routine scheduled maintenance, we will be removing email addresses and associated subscription information from our marketing database for contacts who have not updated their profile and/or subscription preferences within the last 6 months."
  432. # [16:04] <Philip`> That's probably the first time I've ever seen a company intentionally reduce the reach of their email marketing
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  436. # [16:14] <Lachy> jgraham, the financial year ends at the end of June in some countries, so you could do a New Financial Year's Resolution
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  446. # [16:26] <gsnedders> What's a sane PDF reader for Ubuntu?
  447. # [16:27] <hsivonen> the bundled one
  448. # [16:28] <Philip`> cat and the PDF file format specification
  449. # [16:31] <Lachy> LOL
  450. # [16:33] <jgraham> It seems like the PDF specification is only avaliable as a PDF, which presents a bootstrapping problem
  451. # [16:33] <Philip`> That's not a problem - you can use Acrobat Reader to print the PDF specification
  452. # [16:34] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  453. # [16:34] <Philip`> then use the printed spec and cat as a more sane PDF reader
  454. # [16:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: That's no different to HTML, but I think PDF claims to be logical.
  455. # [16:36] <Lachy> gsnedders, at least with HTML specifications, you can read HTML 2.0, implement that, which then allows you to read HTML 3.2 and 4.01, and after implementing those, you can implement HTML5, throw out your previous work on HTML 2.0, 3.2 and 4.01, and you're all done
  456. # [16:37] <gsnedders> Lachy: Or you could just download the PDF version of HTML 5 to start with
  457. # [16:38] <Lachy> but you first need to find the link to the PDF version, which is linked from the HTML version
  458. # [16:38] <gsnedders> Lachy: HTML can be read well enough as a text format though
  459. # [16:38] <Philip`> Someone should print out a copy of the HTML5 spec, then drop it in a trench on a building site, so that a future generation's equivalent of Time Team will dig it up even if there's been an intervening collapse of civilisation and loss of digital information
  460. # [16:39] <gsnedders> Under the rubble, preferably.
  461. # [16:39] <Lachy> you're assuming the person attempting to read the specification is familiar with some form of HTML, and won't be frightened away by all that markup
  462. # [16:42] <Dashiva> Also, if they don't have a browser, they probably don't have internet access to the PDF version either
  463. # [16:44] <Lachy> Dashiva, wget
  464. # [16:44] <Philip`> Dashiva: gopher
  465. # [16:44] <Lachy> Philip`, is the spec even available through the gopher protocol?
  466. # [16:45] <Dashiva> Lachy: If they can wget the spec, they can wget a browser
  467. # [16:45] <Philip`> Lachy: Don't know; if not, someone should set up a server for it
  468. # [16:46] <hsivonen> wonders if Workers address the threading use cases of Google Native Client
  469. # [16:46] <Lachy> Philip`, it depends if someone can create some market demand for such a service
  470. # [16:46] * hsivonen wonders...
  471. # [16:47] <Philip`> Lachy: It doesn't need any market demand, it just needs someone sufficiently bored and strange to set it up
  472. # [16:48] <Lachy> Philip`, someone like you, perhaps?
  473. # [16:48] <Philip`> Dashiva: Maybe they're using an IP-over-SMS protocol and will be bankrupt before they manage to download an entire browser, but would just about be able to download the HTML5 spec
  474. # [16:48] <Philip`> Lachy: I'm not sufficiently bored at the moment
  475. # [16:50] <Lachy> I wonder if anyone has implemented an IP-over-SMS service yet?
  476. # [16:52] <Lachy> I wonder if anyone would be bored enough to manually type in the bytes on their phone to construct an IP packet that is itself divided into 160 byte sequences?
  477. # [16:53] <Philip`> You could build a device out of Lego to press the buttons for you automatically
  478. # [16:53] <Dashiva> Surely you'd want to use base64 instead :)
  479. # [16:53] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  480. # [16:55] <Philip`> Depends on whether you want to optimise bandwidth usage or data entry time
  481. # [16:56] <Lachy> Philip`, given the limitations of character entry on common mobile devices, encoding the entire packet as base64 might be the only viable option
  482. # [16:56] <Philip`> e.g. it'd probably be much quicker to turn off predictive typing and use base10, but you'd have to send more messages
  483. # [16:57] <Lachy> well, not the only viable option, since you could conceivably create your own encoding scheme
  484. # [16:57] <Philip`> I don't think my phone's dictionary contains SGVsbG8gd29ybGQ= so it would complain a lot when I tried to type it in
  485. # [16:57] <Lachy> but that would be a silly waste of time (unlike the rest of this project)
  486. # [16:58] <Dashiva> How about just sending one SMS per byte, having the message contain the byte value as a number 0-255?
  487. # [16:58] <Dashiva> Then you could have jumbo SMSes where you type more than one number in each SMS, separated by non-digits
  488. # [16:59] <Philip`> SMSs are a bit unreliable so you'd probably have to add sequence numbers and ACKs
  489. # [16:59] <Philip`> else the higher layers aren't going to cope very well with all the packet corruption
  490. # [17:01] <Lachy> Dashiva, once you have IP, you can then use TCP for that
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  492. # [17:01] <Philip`> You need each SMS to contain the octet, the sequence number, and a SHA512 HMAC to ensure integrity, and then it'll be fine
  493. # [17:02] <Dashiva> And the ACK?
  494. # [17:02] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  495. # [17:03] <Lachy> you could get away with just the sequence number. Adding all the rest would take up too much of each message's 160 byte sequence
  496. # [17:04] <Philip`> Lachy: SMS probably loses more than one message out of every ~1500, and TCP won't recover from 100% packet loss, so you need some layer 2 error-correction mechanism
  497. # [17:05] <Lachy> if you get a 100% packet loss, then the connection would simply timeout and you could assume transmission failure
  498. # [17:05] <Philip`> Also, TCP won't help at all with UDP applications like real-time games and Skype
  499. # [17:05] <Lachy> SMS-over-IP isn't designed for real time applications
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  501. # [17:06] <Philip`> Lachy: If transmission failure is pretty much guaranteed, it's a bit of a rubbish protocol
  502. # [17:06] <Dashiva> You could do a regular call and use voice software to read out the bytes
  503. # [17:06] <Lachy> oops, IP over SMS
  504. # [17:06] <Philip`> so we ought to design it to work around those problems
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  506. # [17:07] <Philip`> Dashiva: Good thinking - the voice channel should be much more reliable than SMS
  507. # [17:07] <Lachy> I'd love it if someone wrote an April Fools RFC for this protocol :-)
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  509. # [17:08] <takkaria> mm, Skype-over-IP-over-SMS would be beautiful
  510. # [17:09] <Lachy> hey, you could use Twitter for multicasting
  511. # [17:09] <gavin_> I imagine most SMS traffic ends up being sent over an IP network at some point
  512. # [17:09] <Lachy> but then you'd be restricted to 140 character sequences
  513. # [17:09] <gavin_> so really it's IP-over-SMS-over-IP
  514. # [17:11] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1145-ipbf7105marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  515. # [17:11] <Philip`> Mmm, IP-over-Twitter
  516. # [17:12] <gsnedders> takkaria: You're upstairs, right?
  517. # [17:12] <takkaria> gsnedders: yeah
  518. # [17:13] <hsivonen> We should move TPAC to Sweden
  519. # [17:13] <Lachy> IP-over-twitter would be the same as IP-over-SMS, except that the IP-over-twitter protocol would need to specify a way to detect and strip the username from the beginning of each message
  520. # [17:14] <Philip`> Presumably IP-over-SMS and IP-over-Twitter would be able to interoperate, using Twitter's SMS features
  521. # [17:14] * hsivonen notes that twitter applies the length limit by UTF-16 (or characters?) while SMS applies it by bytes
  522. # [17:15] <hsivonen> so twitter gives you 140 characters even if you use stuff that's not in the original GSM encoding and turns SMS into an 80-code unit UTF-16 message
  523. # [17:15] * hsivonen wonders how twitter's gateway deals with that
  524. # [17:16] <Dashiva> Splits into two messages? :)
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  527. # [17:18] <Philip`> Truncates? Crashes?
  528. # [17:19] <Lachy> someone should test it. I don't have Twitter sending me SMSs, so i can't
  529. # [17:20] <Philip`> Apparently SMS does "160 7-bit characters, 140 8-bit characters, or 70 16-bit characters"
  530. # [17:21] <Philip`> (since it's 140 octets)
  531. # [17:21] <Philip`> (according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS#Message_size)
  532. # [17:22] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Twitter applies NFC, then limits by number of codepoints used.
  533. # [17:22] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@535573A4.cable.casema.nl)
  534. # [17:22] <gsnedders> (or at least did a few months ago when I got bored and tried to work it out)
  535. # [17:24] <Lachy> well, if we're encoding the message as Base64, then normalising to NFC won't actually affect the message anyway
  536. # [17:24] * Joins: arun_ (n=arun@cpe-68-173-35-78.nyc.res.rr.com)
  537. # [17:25] <Philip`> The SMS spec says it's "UCS-2" and references ISO/IEC 10646
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  539. # [17:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: what's the 8-bit encoding?
  540. # [17:26] <takkaria> can someone with IE8 go to http://takkaria.org/tests/octet-stream/ and see if hitting 'Start' does anything?
  541. # [17:26] <Philip`> and doesn't give any details on e.g. how surrogates should be handled
  542. # [17:26] <hsivonen> the 160 char thing works with accented Western European chars
  543. # [17:26] <Philip`> hsivonen: "8 bit data is user defined"
  544. # [17:27] <hsivonen> ah.
  545. # [17:27] <Philip`> hsivonen: "Character table: User Specific"
  546. # [17:27] <hsivonen> Russian goes the 16 bit path
  547. # [17:27] <takkaria> yeah, it kinda relies on different phones using the same charsets
  548. # [17:27] <hsivonen> which is why it pays off to use ad hoc Romanizations of Russian
  549. # [17:27] <Lachy> I would assume the defacto standard would probably be Windows-1252
  550. # [17:27] <Lachy> at least in Western markets
  551. # [17:27] <hsivonen> Lachy: I wouldn't assume so
  552. # [17:28] <Philip`> The table in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS#GSM shows the 7-bit characters
  553. # [17:28] <hsivonen> GSM had a crazy legacy of its own
  554. # [17:28] <Philip`> 8-bit sounds like it's for data (e.g. sending photos), not text
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  556. # [17:29] <Philip`> They've got a whole two bits for identifying the character encoding, so they could expand it with an extra choice in the future
  557. # [17:29] <Lachy> wow, I always thought SMS just used ASCII
  558. # [17:30] <hsivonen> Lachy: it was invented by people who had accented use cases
  559. # [17:31] <Philip`> The 7-bit thing also has escape codes to shift into a different character set, with three currently defined (Turkish, Spanish, Portugese)
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  562. # [17:35] <Philip`> If you use the single shift mechanism, then sending 0x1B 0x?? will look up the second byte in the character table for the message's language (defined in a header field)
  563. # [17:36] <Philip`> or there's another mode which uses a language-specific table by default, and I think uses 0x1B to escape to the standard 7-bit table
  564. # [17:37] <Philip`> This system does sound somewhat evolved, i.e. an accumulation of hacks
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  569. # [17:42] * Philip` was looking at http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/archive/23_series/23.038/23038-820.zip via ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/html-info/23038.htm via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS#cite_note-3GPP_23.038-25
  570. # [17:46] <hsivonen> hmm. I guess if Google Native Client takes off, it'll further cement the position of x86 instructions as the universal byte code that future CPUs need to implement
  571. # [17:47] * hsivonen wonders how GCC & Native Client compares to javac & HotSpot
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  574. # [17:49] <Philip`> It's particularly bad if people use NaCl to do computation-intensive work (which is its main purpose) using SSE/SSE2/etc
  575. # [17:49] <Philip`> because they're probably not much fun to emulate efficiently on a different CPU architecture
  576. # [17:51] <hsivonen> are there autovectorizers for any non-vector languages and do they work?
  577. # [17:51] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@vp-c-67.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  578. # [17:52] <Philip`> The Intel C++ Compiler can autovectorise loops
  579. # [17:52] <Philip`> and sometimes it works
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  582. # [17:53] <Philip`> http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/vectorization-with-the-intel-compilers-part-i/
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  585. # [17:56] <Philip`> (As far as I'm aware, anyone who actually cares about vectorisation in C++ will use explicit SIMD intrinsics (or write assembly code) because compilers are rarely magic enough)
  586. # [17:58] <hsivonen> ok
  587. # [18:00] <Philip`> Hmm, apparently GCC has -ftree-vectorize
  588. # [18:01] <Philip`> which apparently works for C and C++ and Fortran and Java etc
  589. # [18:03] <Philip`> (to a limited, buggy extent)
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  592. # [18:06] <takkaria> gsnedders: I'm no longer upstairs
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  644. # [20:42] <gavin_> Lachy: http://www.bunnyhero.org/2008/05/10/scaring-people-with-fullscreen/ fwiw
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  647. # [20:55] <Lachy> gavin_, as I expected, a totally ineffective and useless attack
  648. # [20:56] <Lachy> since the "Press ESC..." message appears right in the middle of the screen, it's the most visible
  649. # [20:56] <gavin_> I couldn't find it the first two times I tried
  650. # [20:56] <gavin_> (was looking at the center)
  651. # [20:56] <Lachy> granted, the demo isn't the best since it uses jibberish for the other text, making them easy to ignore
  652. # [20:57] <Lachy> I don't know how it's possible to miss, it's so obvious
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  654. # [20:58] <Lachy> also, the way I suggested implementing full screen mode in browsers would make that attack virtually ineffective, since pressing any keys would reveal the browser's native video controls
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  660. # [21:23] <Midler> gavin_: i couldnt find it either
  661. # [21:23] <Midler> however
  662. # [21:24] <Midler> making a random white & black dots (lika ants war on tv)
  663. # [21:24] <Midler> might make it harder to find
  664. # [21:27] <Midler> does html5 support webforms 2.0?
  665. # [21:28] <Lachy> wow, Midler, I really don't get how it's even remotely difficult to see. It might be harder if the text boxes contained readable information
  666. # [21:28] <Midler> not me asking
  667. # [21:28] <Midler> I dont even know what it is
  668. # [21:28] <Lachy> Midler, webforms 2 stuff was integrated into HTML5 already
  669. # [21:28] <Midler> ok
  670. # [21:29] <Lachy> basically, it's all the form controls and attributes, like <input>, <select>, <textarea>, and their associated APIs
  671. # [21:29] <Midler> aha
  672. # [21:29] <Midler> well, iam a kind of a newbie =)
  673. # [21:30] <Midler> therefore i hang around in here, hope to learn something
  674. # [21:30] <Midler> =)
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  677. # [21:44] <Midler> Lachy: was it webforms that was shown in the google tech talk video?
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  680. # [21:51] <Lachy> Midler, if it was about new form controls in HTML5, yes
  681. # [21:51] <Midler> ok
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  712. # [22:56] <takkaria> so, Firefox doesn't sniff application/octet-stream, Safari 4 apparently only sniffs application/octet-stream files which look like HTML, and Opera sniffs lots of thigs sent as application/octet-stream depending on file extension
  713. # [22:57] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@nat/mozilla/x-031275505d3a1a9b)
  714. # [23:06] <takkaria> I'm pretty sure sniffing application/octet-stream as text/html is a potential security hole, actually
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  717. # [23:07] <Lachy> what does IE do?
  718. # [23:07] <takkaria> no idea, I've not got any way to run it ATM
  719. # [23:07] <Lachy> ok
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  721. # [23:07] <takkaria> you could run http://takkaria.org/tests/octet-stream/ if you wanted
  722. # [23:08] <takkaria> I assume it will work on IE, I don't think I use anything it can't handle
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  737. # Session Close: Tue Jun 30 00:00:00 2009

The end :)