/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-30 / end

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  49. # [03:46] <heycam> did the Location interface have stringification requirements that were removed? or am i misremembering?
  50. # [03:47] <heycam> i thought i remembered the interface having [Stringifies=href] on it
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  61. # [05:08] <shepazu> does the case-insensitivity extend to attribute values, or just element and attribute names?
  62. # [05:09] <heycam> shepazu, which case-insensitivity?
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  64. # [05:11] <heycam> i don't think in general the case of attribute values is changed: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#attribute-value-%28double-quoted%29-state
  65. # [05:12] <heycam> when parsing
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  68. # [05:19] <shepazu> ok, thanks, heycam
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  87. # [07:02] <othermaciej> Hixie is a brave man
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  89. # [07:32] <hober> indeed. I can't imagine going near the codec discussion
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  92. # [07:46] <shepazu> Hixie: is heycam correct that attribute values are not parsed in a case-insensitive manner?
  93. # [07:48] <shepazu> (to unwind that a bit: my understanding is that attribute values, unlike element and attribute names, are left as the case they are encountered, and not matched to different values in the DOM)
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  98. # [08:00] <Hixie> shepazu: correct -- iirc the only processing the parser does on attribute values (other than finding their delimiters) is &entity; expansion
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  100. # [08:05] <shepazu> Hixie: ok, good... I was worried for a moment about path commands (relative and absolute)
  101. # [08:07] <shepazu> now, what implications does that have on things like <text text-anchor="miDDle"/> ? will that be "error-corrected", somehow permitted as is, or fail?
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  105. # [08:21] <heycam> shepazu, afaict, that's purely within our (svg's) purview
  106. # [08:25] <shepazu> heycam: then that opens up a question we should be addressing, no?
  107. # [08:25] <heycam> yeah i think it would be good to talk about that
  108. # [08:26] <Hixie> shepazu: same as in XML.
  109. # [08:26] <heycam> especially for consistency with style="text-anchor: miDDle", which is allowed i think
  110. # [08:26] <shepazu> heycam: the one place it really matters, IIRC, is path@d
  111. # [08:27] <shepazu> oh, and anyplace where an @id is referenced
  112. # [08:27] <Hixie> personally I would encourage you to keep as much as possible case-sensitive as you can
  113. # [08:27] <Hixie> but that if you do have anything case-insensitive, you make it work the same in XML as in text/html
  114. # [08:28] <shepazu> Hixie: we would certainly do the latter
  115. # [08:28] <Hixie> but that's just me :-)
  116. # [08:28] <shepazu> you've argued for case-insensitivity for element and attribute names... this seems a bit inconsistent
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  171. # [11:37] <takkaria> gsnedders: have you written content-type sniffing tests for abarth's draft? someone said you might have done
  172. # [11:39] <gsnedders> takkaria: I started playing around with ome but never got anywhere really
  173. # [11:39] <gsnedders> takkaria: gimme a min
  174. # [11:40] <gsnedders> takkaria: Ah, http://gsnedders.html5.org/tests/content-type.php is what I have
  175. # [11:41] <gsnedders> heh. Opera 10b thinks i'm on a slow network.
  176. # [11:43] <takkaria> gsnedders: hm useful, is the source for that around anywhere?
  177. # [11:43] <gsnedders> no
  178. # [11:43] <takkaria> ok :)
  179. # [11:43] * gsnedders can grab it if you want
  180. # [11:44] <takkaria> no, don't worry, it was more out of curiosity than anything
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  182. # [11:45] <gsnedders> takkaria: http://gsnedders.html5.org/tests/ct.tgz
  183. # [11:46] <takkaria> gsnedders: ta
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  188. # [12:35] <virtuelv> Hixie: do you have anything written on Channel messaging yet? or are there requirements available anywhere?
  189. # [12:42] <Hixie> virtuelv: Channel messaging?
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  194. # [12:55] <gsnedders> takkaria: yt?
  195. # [12:55] <takkaria> gsnedders: yup
  196. # [12:56] <gsnedders> takkaria: Had lunch?
  197. # [12:56] <takkaria> nope :)
  198. # [12:56] <gsnedders> takkaria: Want to go and get lunch? :)
  199. # [12:56] * gsnedders uh, forgot to bring lunch
  200. # [12:57] <takkaria> ah
  201. # [12:57] <takkaria> I have curry to reheat
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  203. # [12:57] <gsnedders> (and everyone around here has had lunch)
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  215. # [14:04] <virtuelv> Hixie: yes
  216. # [14:04] <virtuelv> 8.1 Event definitions
  217. # [14:04] <virtuelv> Messages in server-sent events, Web sockets, cross-document messaging, and channel messaging use the message event.
  218. # [14:05] <virtuelv> the link to channel messaging points to a description not yet written
  219. # [14:10] <virtuelv> I'm having a hard time understanding where this fits into anything
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  222. # [14:15] <virtuelv> and is there any particular reason step six in the description uses Window instead of WindowProxy?
  223. # [14:15] <virtuelv> «Queue a task to dispatch the event created in the previous step at the Window object on which the method was invoked. The task source for this task is the posted message task source.»
  224. # [14:16] <virtuelv> ah, nevermind that last one
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  227. # [14:22] <gsnedders> What's a good hex editor?
  228. # [14:22] <jgraham> gsnedders: I don't know what a good one is but ghexedit or something is a hex editor
  229. # [14:23] <jgraham> Oh it's called ghex
  230. # [14:25] <Philip`> I used to like Biew
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  235. # [14:38] * jgraham notes that not having ready access to windows makes testing jas harder
  236. # [14:38] <jgraham> *JAWS
  237. # [14:38] * Joins: VeXocide (i=vexocide@toad.stack.nl)
  238. # [14:39] * Philip` wonders how hard it can be to get access to Windows
  239. # [14:40] <takkaria> jgraham: I think there should be some vmware images around on the network somewhere, if that's any use
  240. # [14:40] * Joins: tyoshino (n=tyoshino@220.109.219.244)
  241. # [14:40] <Philip`> It's not like you're trying to get access to a SunOS 4 machine or something
  242. # [14:40] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@92.37.73.115) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  243. # [14:42] <jgraham> takkaria: Well I have windowws 7 in Virtualbox but I don't think it likes my audio. Plus I don't really want to spend my weekends in the office
  244. # [14:43] <virtuelv> gsnedders: you could also have a look at Bless as a hex editor
  245. # [14:43] <virtuelv> (and since we're on such tools, presumably in a Gnome environment - Meld is by far the nicest diff viewer)
  246. # [14:44] <takkaria> you say 'meld', I say 'less' :)
  247. # [14:48] <Philip`> gsnedders: If the file you want to hex edit is actually executable code, then http://www.hex-rays.com/idapro/ is great
  248. # [14:48] <gsnedders> Philip`: It is not
  249. # [14:48] * iugrina is now known as brale
  250. # [14:48] <Philip`> gsnedders: Then you should find some executable code and use IDA on that
  251. # [14:48] * brale is now known as iugrina
  252. # [14:52] * Philip` wishes Google hadn't decided to start looking all ugly with a wide margin around the search results page
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  277. # [17:38] <Philip`> http://everything2.com/title/W3C - "There is not a single browser on the market that complys with all W3C standards, not even Microsoft Internet Explorer."
  278. # [17:38] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-7162b9e2eed0e1bb)
  279. # [17:38] <Philip`> (Thu Nov 02 2000 at 2:39:22)
  280. # [17:38] <Philip`> The first part of that sentence is still true, but I can't imagine anyone nowadays saying the second part
  281. # [17:39] <Philip`> I guess things haven't really changed that much, they've just shuffled around a bit
  282. # [17:46] <tantek> It may not be possible for any single implementation of anything to comply with all W3C standards - have you seen how many there are? http://www.w3.org/TR/
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  293. # [18:12] <takkaria> things which suck: when your internet connection will only show you your broadband company's activation page and it's all in swedish
  294. # [18:15] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-226.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  295. # [18:15] <Philip`> All you need to do is activate the internet connection and then put the page through Google Translate to see what it said
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  301. # [18:43] <Midler> takkaria: U want help with swedish?
  302. # [18:43] <Midler> Or is it way to late?
  303. # [18:43] <takkaria> I've sorted it now
  304. # [18:44] <Midler> In that way, Sweden is just like poland and other countries
  305. # [18:44] <Midler> U have ascii characters that u've never used...almost
  306. # [18:44] <Midler> =)
  307. # [18:44] <takkaria> my swedish is picking up rapidly
  308. # [18:44] <takkaria> but that's what happens when you sit and translate things word-by-word
  309. # [18:45] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de)
  310. # [18:45] <Midler> :D
  311. # [18:45] <Midler> why not using google translate or something similar?
  312. # [18:46] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  313. # [18:48] <takkaria> I have time on my hands, and a swedish-english dictionary
  314. # [18:49] <takkaria> if I'm in sweden for twelve weeks, I might as well use all the opportunities I can to learn the language
  315. # [18:49] <Midler> oh, thats a long time
  316. # [18:49] * Quits: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  317. # [18:50] <takkaria> I'm going to have a go at reading the paper in a bit
  318. # [18:51] <Midler> I guess comics might be an easy way to start. Seing their expressions makes it easier to understand what they say...i guess
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  322. # [19:08] <remysharp> is there anyone here that knows a bit about the offline apps/manifest?
  323. # [19:09] <remysharp> I've got this url in Firefox (from what I can tell, RC3 == final release): http://html5demos.com/offlineapp - allow it to store and refresh I get a content encoding issue -
  324. # [19:10] <remysharp> does this look like a bug to do with FF or is this something I've done wrong?
  325. # [19:10] <remysharp> the manifest is being served under the right mime type (or should be - I did change it)
  326. # [19:10] * remysharp works fine in Safari 4 + iPhone version.
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  332. # [19:34] <beowulf> remysharp: i have the same problem
  333. # [19:34] <remysharp> cool - then it's not just me
  334. # [19:34] <remysharp> or - you've got same issue on my url or your own test?
  335. # [19:35] <beowulf> remysharp: when i try a hello world with a manifest I get a Content Encoding Error with ff3.5
  336. # [19:35] <beowulf> remysharp: http://www.carisenda.com/sandbox/storage/
  337. # [19:35] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  338. # [19:35] <remysharp> aye - cool - then it's a bug
  339. # [19:36] <remysharp> great. damn, that's some badass functionality and it doesn't work in FF :-(
  340. # [19:36] <beowulf> well, it would appear to be worse than doesn't work, it prevents you from using it
  341. # [19:36] <remysharp> Is that you then, beowulf == Stephen ? \o. hi if so!
  342. # [19:37] <beowulf> unless we've both done something stupid :)
  343. # [19:37] <beowulf> remysharp: hi! :)
  344. # [19:39] <remysharp> :)
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  346. # [19:39] <beowulf> remysharp: it seems to work ok in ff 3.05
  347. # [19:39] <beowulf> 3.0.5
  348. # [19:40] <remysharp> then it's definitely a regression bug.
  349. # [19:40] <remysharp> perfect, that's what I needed.
  350. # [19:40] <remysharp> thanks!
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  352. # [19:41] * beowulf checks his logs...
  353. # [19:42] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-40-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  354. # [19:42] <beowulf> ah, it asked me if it was ok to store stuff but doesn't look at the manifest
  355. # [19:43] <remysharp> my server logs do when I'm checking it
  356. # [19:43] <remysharp> or do you mean FF3.0.5?
  357. # [19:43] <beowulf> yeah, i'm trying 3.05 (which confused me by asking if it was ok to store stuff offline)
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  360. # [19:48] <ttepasse> Is it just me or is whatwg.org down?
  361. # [19:49] <ezyang> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/whatwg.org
  362. # [19:49] <ttepasse> thanks.
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  364. # [19:51] <Midler> ezyang: Now i just need to remember that DNS name...
  365. # [19:51] <Midler> :P
  366. # [19:51] <beowulf> remysharp: does your server use mod_deflate?
  367. # [19:51] <remysharp> nope
  368. # [19:51] <remysharp> but it does use gzip
  369. # [19:51] <ezyang> http://lmgtfy.com/
  370. # [19:52] <ezyang> ;-)
  371. # [19:52] <Midler> hahaha
  372. # [19:52] <Midler> well, my brain only has place for a byte
  373. # [19:52] <Midler> oops to low
  374. # [19:53] <Midler> 16bytes
  375. # [19:53] <Midler> i dont count .com
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  403. # [21:04] <Philip`> How boring, Yahoo fixed their iso-2022-kr XSS vulnerability quickly :-(
  404. # [21:04] * Philip` wonders how many other sites are vulnerable to the same issue
  405. # [21:04] <ezyang> linky?
  406. # [21:05] <Philip`> ezyang: http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%EC%84%9E%E8%81%BD%E9%9D%91%E5%AD%83%EC%88%8D%E8%A8%8A%E6%98%B1%E7%A9%BF%E5%88%B7%E5%A5%84%E5%89%94%EA%B5%89%EB%82%91%EC%84%9E%E6%98%8C%E4%BE%84%E5%BE%9E%EC%97%86&ei=UTF-8&eo=iso-2022-kr
  407. # [21:05] <Philip`> in Chrome
  408. # [21:05] <Philip`> before today
  409. # [21:05] <ezyang> holy crap long url
  410. # [21:05] <Philip`> Safer than pasting Unicode into IRC :-)
  411. # [21:06] <ezyang> my irc client doesn't actually make it easy for me to open that :-(
  412. # [21:06] <ezyang> (the url marches off the side of my terminal)
  413. # [21:06] <Philip`> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090630#l-406
  414. # [21:06] <ezyang> sweet
  415. # [21:07] * Joins: dglazkov__ (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-dac19dd0bb6f1b85)
  416. # [21:07] <ezyang> So, what does the text "do"?
  417. # [21:07] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-7162b9e2eed0e1bb) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  418. # [21:08] <Philip`> $ echo '섞聽靑孃숍訊昱穿刷奄剔굉낑섞昌侄從없' | iconv -t iso-2022-kr
  419. # [21:08] <Philip`> )C</title><script>alert(123)</script>x
  420. # [21:08] <ezyang> whoa :-P
  421. # [21:09] <ezyang> Ok, so this only affects sites that let you set the page's output encoding
  422. # [21:09] <Philip`> so Yahoo encodes the text into that string of bytes, and Chrome doesn't support iso-2022-kr so it decodes as iso-8859-1 (or utf-8 or something) and executes the script
  423. # [21:09] <Philip`> (All other browsers do support iso-2022-kr, as far as I can tell)
  424. # [21:09] <ezyang> That's... a chrome bug
  425. # [21:10] <ezyang> Also, I still don't understand why search engines let you twiddle the output encoding
  426. # [21:10] <Philip`> It's not a bug for a browser to not support a relatively obscure encoding
  427. # [21:11] <Philip`> Even if it did, you might be able to find aliases that are supported by a server but not by the browser
  428. # [21:11] <Philip`> Twiddling the output encoding does seem like a pretty stupid idea
  429. # [21:11] <Philip`> but Google and Yahoo both allow it, so I guess they've got reasons
  430. # [21:12] <Philip`> Ultraseek allows it too, and didn't even forbid EBCDIC when I last tried it, so you can XSS it that way too
  431. # [21:12] <ezyang> So, the only good reason is accessibility
  432. # [21:13] <ezyang> For those pauvre browsers that don't support UTF-8
  433. # [21:13] <ezyang> Search engines like Google have a weird notion of what accessible needs to be
  434. # [21:14] <ezyang> I wonder what UTF-8 penetration is these days
  435. # [21:15] <Philip`> It doesn't help those browsers unless the users intentionally follow a link with the query parameter that sets the output encoding
  436. # [21:15] <ezyang> I thought that Google would do tricky user agent detection?
  437. # [21:20] <Philip`> If it was doing that, why would it put the output encoding in the query parameter instead of doing the tricky user agent detection when serving the results page?
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  446. # [22:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: Can't get a external HD shipped to SE from amazon.co.uk :P
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  460. # [22:40] <eighty4> gsnedders: buy one from dustinhome, I bet they're way better then crapy amazon
  461. # [22:48] <gsnedders> eighty4: And several hundred kronor more expensive
  462. # [22:49] <eighty4> so :)
  463. # [22:52] <eighty4> not several
  464. # [22:52] <gsnedders> several with what I need to buy :)
  465. # [22:53] <eighty4> ok
  466. # [22:53] <eighty4> I'm thinking of buying this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-Spin-Point-Internal-Drive/dp/B000XZ5JBW/ref=sr_1_19?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1246394761&sr=1-19 from dusinhome
  467. # [22:53] <gsnedders> Amazon isn't the place to buy internal HDs :)
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  469. # [22:54] <eighty4> costs 865 sek from amazon and 895 from dusin
  470. # [22:58] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Why not buy it, you know, from somewhere in Sweden?
  471. # [22:58] <gsnedders> Dashiva: It costs more?
  472. # [22:58] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Also, the Swedish websites are, uh, in Swedish.
  473. # [23:01] <Dashiva> I'm pretty sure Samsung Spin Point is the same :P
  474. # [23:02] <gsnedders> Dashiva: But actually buying stuff is more challenging :P
  475. # [23:02] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  476. # [23:02] <Dashiva> And surely you aren't the person to back away from a good challenge
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  480. # [23:04] <Dashiva> Why must people insist on using obviously flawed analogies?
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  485. # [23:06] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Where's the fun in coherent analogies?
  486. # [23:06] <Dashiva> I was thinking maybe the goal of an analogy was communication, not fun :)
  487. # [23:07] <gsnedders> Dashiva: You misguided bugger
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  499. # [23:31] <Sirisian> I'm confused. whatwg is linked from the W3C site, but what is it?
  500. # [23:31] <Sirisian> Just a group of developers?
  501. # [23:31] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_is_the_WHATWG.3F
  502. # [23:31] <Sirisian> oh nvm
  503. # [23:31] <Sirisian> yeah just saw it
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  505. # [23:31] <Sirisian> it's also on the main site. I didn't scroll down
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  509. # [23:37] <Sirisian> Something I noticed. I've been looking through the Editor's Draft for the HTML 5 stuff. It has a section for the context menus and it says "When an element's context menu is requested [...] the UA must fire a simple event called contextmenu that bubbles and is cancelable at the element for which the menu was requested." I was going to post in the forum with a long post, but why isn't this extended to mouse up and mouse down
  510. # [23:37] <Sirisian> to set a standard for preventDefault for like middle click events by the browser. (Making a standard that says it should be "cancelable").
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  512. # [23:38] <Hixie> there is another spec to handle the actual user interaction events
  513. # [23:38] <Hixie> like mousedown and mouseup
  514. # [23:38] <Hixie> separate from html5
  515. # [23:38] <Hixie> (it applies to things like svg also)
  516. # [23:38] <Hixie> that spec hasn't been written yet though
  517. # [23:38] <Sirisian> You mean for how browsers should react and work with them?
  518. # [23:38] <Hixie> yeah
  519. # [23:38] <Sirisian> oh is there a link? I must have missed it
  520. # [23:38] <Hixie> and how they should be cancelable and stuff
  521. # [23:38] <Hixie> it doesn't exist yet
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  524. # [23:40] <Sirisian> oh that's why. Well that's good to here. Right now FF and IE have methods to allow a web developer to fully take over the mouse. I've been looking forward for a while when that idea is passed onto other browsers. Thanks for the response.
  525. # [23:40] <Sirisian> hear*
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  532. # Session Close: Wed Jul 01 00:00:00 2009

The end :)