/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-07-01 / end

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  16. # [00:26] <roc> I find it unfathomable that in 2009 people still argue that HTML5 should have draconian parsing
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  18. # [00:31] <othermaciej> wait, what? who?
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  24. # [00:58] <roc> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6777#c13
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  139. # [09:08] <hsivonen> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1038191/google-homepage-not-valid-html/1044778#1044778
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  147. # [09:41] <Lachy> depending on how the page is built, I'm quite sure the performance of google could actually be improved by adopting a more standards based approach
  148. # [09:41] <othermaciej> I feel guilty for posting on the codec thread
  149. # [09:41] <othermaciej> I should have known better
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  151. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I can't see what part of your message somebody could reasonably take issue with.
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  153. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> I think the hardware concern is a major concern
  154. # [09:43] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I was just hoping that I wouldn't extend the flamewar
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  157. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: if you didn't post on the thread at all, your silence would be interpreted as a clear indication that you are indeed part of the conspiracy
  158. # [09:50] <othermaciej> obviously
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  160. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> I think it's high time I added some H.264 and Theora stuff to my wisdom generator
  161. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> heh. looking at it now, I see that I already had the "the MP/LA Expert Group" in there
  162. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> under the category "seemingly-benign-pawns"
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  164. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> ok, now with even more wisdom: http://logopoeia.com/wisdom/
  165. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> well, slightly more
  166. # [10:06] <annevk2> first hit: "the divine principle of time inequality is encoded in Anne van Kesteren's weblog."
  167. # [10:06] <annevk2> though reading further it also says "the divine principle of time inequality is encoded in the Nag Hammadi Library"
  168. # [10:07] <annevk2> "Eminent thinkers throughout history (Roy Fielding, etc.) agree that the divine principle of time inequality is the transcendental principle behind all creation" :p
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  176. # [10:18] <hsivonen> is any spec responsible for XMLSerializer?
  177. # [10:21] <annevk2> nope
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  179. # [10:23] <hsivonen> :-( there should be
  180. # [10:24] <hsivonen> It turns out that MySpace uses it on HTML DOMs and makes expectations
  181. # [10:24] <othermaciej> maybe XMLSerializer and DOMParser can be snuck into Web DOM Core
  182. # [10:24] <othermaciej> what expectations do they have?
  183. # [10:26] <hsivonen> othermaciej: they expect no generated namespace declarations
  184. # [10:26] <othermaciej> where do they depend on that?
  185. # [10:27] <othermaciej> I think Safari would generate namespace declarations and so violate their expectation
  186. # [10:27] <hsivonen> they except h=h.replace(/<html>|<\/html>|<html\/>/gi,"") to zap the root element tags
  187. # [10:27] <hsivonen> when updating status/mood
  188. # [10:29] <othermaciej> you're making it sound like their way to do status updates is a Rube Goldberg device
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  193. # [10:33] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it is
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  205. # [11:18] <roc> if we want an good baseline video codec
  206. # [11:18] <roc> and the barrier is the choices made by device manufacturers and their hardware suppliers
  207. # [11:18] <roc> and their decisions are purely economic
  208. # [11:19] <hsivonen> how varied are the DSPs used in contemporary handhelds?
  209. # [11:19] <roc> then the only practical way forward is to encourage the proliferation of content in an unencumbered codec, to tip that economic balance
  210. # [11:20] <roc> so it seems to me that everyone who's interested in having a good baseline video codec should be encouraging that
  211. # [11:21] <roc> including by supporting Theora wherever the device constraints do not apply
  212. # [11:23] <roc> hsivonen: a lot are using these OMAP chips, but a lot aren't
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  214. # [11:24] <hsivonen> just wondering if writing for a Nokia shipped TI chip results in any portability to whatever Apple uses in iPhone
  215. # [11:24] <roc> I believe the answer is no
  216. # [11:25] <hsivonen> ok :-(
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  222. # [11:50] <annevk2> oh hey, gsnedders just invaded my inbox via our bug tracking software
  223. # [11:50] <annevk2> welcome!
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  226. # [11:53] <roc> annevk2: I already made your point about vendor consensus!
  227. # [11:54] <roc> therefore it's a good one :-)
  228. # [11:54] <hsivonen> is Web DOM Core a W3C deliverable already?
  229. # [11:55] <gsnedders> annevk2: mwhaha?
  230. # [11:57] <annevk2> roc, teaches me to read the whole thread first (over and over again...) :)
  231. # [11:57] <roc> this is why gmail is superior
  232. # [11:59] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-3ceb00065822ccb5)
  233. # [12:00] * hsivonen hasn't read the whole thread but points out that Nokia ships Flash on Maemo
  234. # [12:00] * hsivonen wonders what *that* does to battery life when watching YouTube
  235. # [12:00] <hsivonen> I guess I should measure
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  239. # [12:29] <annevk2> roc, congrats btw on Firefox 3.5, haven't tried the official release yet, but it sure seems like a great product
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  242. # [12:39] <roc> thanks
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  244. # [12:42] <roc> but 3.6prealpha1 is what the cool kids are using these days :-)
  245. # [12:43] <annevk2> so I hear, with a certain pref turned on rather than off :)
  246. # [12:44] <takkaria> roc: what exciting stuff is planned for firefox.next?
  247. # [12:46] <roc> Henri's HTML5 parser is on trunk, I assume that's what Anne was referring to
  248. # [12:46] <roc> hopefully we'll turn it on for FF.next
  249. # [12:47] <roc> well, I'm sure we'll turn it on, the question is whether we'll turn it off after we see what it does to the Web :-)
  250. # [12:47] <takkaria> hehe
  251. # [12:47] <roc> multiple backgrounds is already on trunk
  252. # [12:47] <takkaria> is there anyone looking at webforms stuff?
  253. # [12:48] <roc> someone is looking at file upload
  254. # [12:48] <roc> I'm not sure what that plan is
  255. # [12:49] <roc> Jonas is working on XBL2, I suspect we may try to build new web forms stuff on top of that
  256. # [12:49] <roc> <video poster> is on trunk
  257. # [12:49] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  258. # [12:49] <hsivonen> fun. text-indent makes WebKit indent the video controller
  259. # [12:49] <hsivonen> in both Chrome and Safari
  260. # [12:50] <roc> lots of other stuff is going on
  261. # [12:52] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like Cortado doesn't work right in IE with two instances on the same page :-(
  262. # [12:52] <takkaria> roc: sounds cool, I should start reading the mozilla planet again sometime
  263. # [12:53] <hsivonen> hmm. maybe I should try to get my blog feed on planet so that I could advertise the HTML5 parser once the Windows crasher patch and comment end bang state are in
  264. # [12:57] <hsivonen> how are Xiph Cortado and Wikimedia Cortado related? I suspect the Wikimedia Cortado worked better than the Xiph one in IE.
  265. # [12:58] <hsivonen> I think it's important to promote Ogg-only video also for IE, so that people don't need to use royalty-encumbered fallback formats, but it seems Cortado isn't quite ready for prime time
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  271. # [13:34] <Lachy> has anyone researched the h.264 patents to find out when they're all due to expire, which would make h.264 royalty free?
  272. # [13:34] <Lachy> I checked the MPEG-LA patent list earlier, but they only mention the expiration dates for the few that already expired. The others just list patent numbers
  273. # [13:36] <gsnedders> Seeming the first draft was 1999, I would guess no earlier than 17 years after that
  274. # [13:36] <gsnedders> The final draft was 2003, so potentially 2020
  275. # [13:36] <hsivonen> hey, that's before 2022 :-)
  276. # [13:36] <gsnedders> :)
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  278. # [13:37] <roc> the problem is that there will be an H.265 or whatever
  279. # [13:37] <roc> hsivonen: yes, you should definitely be on planet.mozilla.org
  280. # [13:38] <Lachy> roc, are you just speculating about h.265, or is there already work in progress?
  281. # [13:38] <roc> I'm speculating
  282. # [13:38] <gsnedders> Lachy: "under study for potential development" according to wikipedia
  283. # [13:38] <hsivonen> has On2 said anything about why they made the VP3 stuff free but not VP6?
  284. # [13:38] <roc> why wouldn't there be?
  285. # [13:39] * hsivonen wonders if On2 will provide nicely packaged Theora encoding solutions
  286. # [13:39] <Lachy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.265
  287. # [13:40] <Lachy> gsnedders, I thought the patent term was 20 years, not 17
  288. # [13:40] <gsnedders> Lachy: It depends on country. Don't expect me to remember the max :)
  289. # [13:42] <Lachy> "Patents must be granted in all "fields of technology," although exceptions for certain public interests are allowed (Art. 27.2 and 27.3 [1]) and must be enforceable for at least 20 years (Art 33)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIPS#The_requirements_of_TRIPS
  290. # [13:42] <Lachy> so that applies to all countries that have agreed with TRIPS
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  293. # [14:03] <hsivonen> quick black-box poking suggests the XMLSerializer in WebKit is already an HTML serializer when applied to HTML
  294. # [14:05] <hsivonen> what's the right mailing list for XMLSerializer? www-dom?
  295. # [14:07] <Lachy> I don't see how www-dom would be relevant
  296. # [14:07] <hsivonen> what ARIA cases is chaals referring to here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009AprJun/0009.html ?
  297. # [14:09] <Lachy> no idea. Unfortunately, he's not around for me to ask him
  298. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about XMLSerializer, lacking any better place, I'd say public-webapps,
  299. # [14:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok.
  300. # [14:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: btw, I ran the V.nu deployment script yesterday
  301. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: cool
  302. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> I'll see if I can get the W3C instance synced up too
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  312. # [14:56] <Lachy> Hixie, is QUOTA_EXCEEDED_ERR used in webstorage defined as a constant anywhere for DOMException?
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  317. # [15:05] <Lachy> does anyone here working on WebKit know if you enforce any disk quota limits for localStorage and sessionStorage?
  318. # [15:06] <Lachy> I just tried testing it with an infinite loop that keeps storing data until it throws an exception, but it just kept going
  319. # [15:07] * Joins: zdobersek1 (n=zan@92.37.69.27)
  320. # [15:08] <Rik|work> Lachy: I've seen bugs to fix that
  321. # [15:08] <Rik|work> don't know if they're closed or not
  322. # [15:10] <Rik|work> Lachy: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22765
  323. # [15:10] <Rik|work> and https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26155
  324. # [15:11] <Lachy> Rik|work, ok. I'd recommend also setting a quota for sessionStorage
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  337. # [15:43] <gsnedders> annevk2: yt?
  338. # [15:43] <gsnedders> annevk2: What's "ouch" about http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-DOM-Level-3-Core-20040407/core.html#baseURIs-Considerations?
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  344. # [15:59] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like Daily Motion has some borked browser sniffing
  345. # [16:00] <hsivonen> Telling me to install Firefox in order to see video without proprietary plug-ins
  346. # [16:00] <hsivonen> when I'm using Firefox
  347. # [16:00] <annevk2> gsnedders, liveness
  348. # [16:01] <hsivonen> oops. I've overridden my User-Agent string
  349. # [16:01] <gsnedders> annevk2: Ah, OK. So nothing more.
  350. # [16:01] <annevk2> maybe
  351. # [16:01] <gsnedders> Heh. Opera's the only browser that ever treats it as live, though we have bugs.
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  353. # [16:04] <annevk2> hsivonen, willing to write the spec for XMLSerializer and DOMParser?
  354. # [16:05] <hsivonen> annevk2: can't volunteer right now :-(
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  357. # [16:20] <gsnedders> href in the DOM on HTMLAnchorElement doesn't give the absolute URL, right? The only way to get that is to recompose the decomposition attributes?
  358. # [16:24] <jgraham> gsnedders: It gives the absolute URL
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  360. # [16:27] <gsnedders> The spec says that it reflects the content attribute though…
  361. # [16:27] <gsnedders> Hixie?
  362. # [16:28] <annevk2> gsnedders, yes, but it reflects a URL value
  363. # [16:28] <annevk2> gsnedders, see the definition of reflect
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  366. # [16:31] <gsnedders> annevk2: Ah, right. I need to actually read beyond the note
  367. # [16:31] <jgraham> annevk2: The definition of reflect could be improved to note that there are special cases wwhere the behaviour is more complex
  368. # [16:33] <annevk2> hmm, that's just an introductory note, it doesn't define anything
  369. # [16:34] <annevk2> but euh, I'm not the editor :)
  370. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> attribute [ReflectURL] DOMString src;
  371. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> [[
  372. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> This indicates that the src DOM attribute reflects a content attribute
  373. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> named src, but that the result is a completed URL, not the raw
  374. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> attribute value:
  375. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> ]]
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  377. # [16:37] <annevk2> I'd think you want [Reflect=URL]
  378. # [16:38] <annevk2> 'cause all "reflect" thingies have something in common, but some have specific types
  379. # [16:39] <annevk2> (e.g. they all create a new content attribute if none exists)
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  381. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> annevk2: I guess they didn't do it that way maybe because of [Reflect=URL] would imply there's a content attribute named "URL"
  382. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> because they're also doing, attribute [Reflect=class] DOMString className;
  383. # [16:47] <annevk2> I see
  384. # [16:48] <gsnedders> annevk2: Is there any spec which says http://t/imported/annevk/xml/xml-base/004.xht should pass?
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  452. # [18:51] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
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  457. # [18:55] <Philip`> Is Perl installed on OS X by default?
  458. # [18:56] <Philip`> Hmm, sounds like it is
  459. # [18:58] * Philip` wonders why somebody gets a "perl: No match." error
  460. # [18:58] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.119.214.153.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  461. # [18:59] <Philip`> Oh, it's because they're using csh and writing "[...]" on the command line
  462. # [19:03] <Hixie> Lachy: web dom core iirc
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  470. # [19:25] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: yt?
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  490. # [19:59] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I'm here now
  491. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> for a while at least
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  504. # [20:20] <jgraham> MikeSmith and gsnedders are like star crossed lovers
  505. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> heh
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  510. # [21:02] * gsnedders wonders where he can buy a birthday card, and what he should get as a present.
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  513. # [21:04] <Philip`> gsnedders: A birthday card shop
  514. # [21:04] <gsnedders> Philip`: Located where in Linköping, at what address?
  515. # [21:04] <Philip`> gsnedders: A tea towel
  516. # [21:04] <takkaria> gsnedders: make your own
  517. # [21:04] <Philip`> gsnedders: I don't know - walk around and look for one that has thousands of birthday cards in the front window
  518. # [21:04] <gsnedders> takkaria: Me!?
  519. # [21:05] <gsnedders> takkaria: Do I look creative?
  520. # [21:05] <takkaria> if you write code, you're at least somewhat creative
  521. # [21:05] <gsnedders> Do I look as if I have artist capabilities?
  522. # [21:05] * Parts: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-197-137.bredband.comhem.se)
  523. # [21:07] * takkaria shrugs
  524. # [21:09] <takkaria> looks can be and often are deceiving
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  528. # [21:24] <jgraham> gsnBokia sells some cards if you don't fancy DIYing it
  529. # [21:24] <jgraham> Oh he left. That's why tab did nothing
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  557. # [22:54] <Hixie> WebSocket ports and schemes; text/html and application/xhtml+xml; text/cache-manifest; text/event-stream; application/microdata+json and application/microdata+bibtex
  558. # [22:54] <Hixie> anything else need registering with IANA?
  559. # [22:56] <annevk2> text/javascript update?
  560. # [22:57] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.16.148)
  561. # [22:58] <annevk2> someone needs to finish http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-scheme
  562. # [22:59] <annevk2> ideally the character encoding stuff would be fixed at the IETF/IANA/Unicode-level
  563. # [23:02] <annevk2> rel values needs some more coordination prolly
  564. # [23:04] <annevk2> is text/uri-list defined?
  565. # [23:05] <annevk2> only as experimental in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2483 afaict
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  568. # [23:07] <Hixie> i think i'll leave those for now
  569. # [23:07] <Hixie> but yeah
  570. # [23:07] <Hixie> thanks
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  589. # Session Close: Thu Jul 02 00:00:00 2009

The end :)