/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-07-09 / end

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  20. # [02:48] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  21. # [02:48] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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  46. # [04:40] <ezyang> I think I have more complaining hsivonen to do again :-)
  47. # [04:41] <ezyang> Oh hey, no, it looks like Hixie just didn't label the appropriate commits
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  49. # [04:47] <ezyang> No... I totally can yell at him ^_^
  50. # [04:47] <ezyang> I'm pretty sure the spec doesn't deal with </x x x> yet
  51. # [04:53] <ezyang> nvm again
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  84. # [07:06] <ezyang> I'm confused... does that mean that we can have naughty characters in our HTML5 documents?
  85. # [07:07] <ezyang> Huh, I guess so
  86. # [07:11] <ezyang> Oh god, 105 test-cases to fix
  87. # [07:13] <ezyang> Ruh oh... can't actually express \u10FFFF in JSOn
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  90. # [07:17] <ezyang> Haha, whoo surrogates
  91. # [07:18] <ezyang> numericEntities: aggh
  92. # [07:18] <ezyang> I wonder where the script we used to generate this was
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  107. # [08:36] <ezyang> wtf &#18446744073709551681;
  108. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> ezyang: you testing surrogate handling?
  109. # [08:39] <ezyang> Uhh, sort of
  110. # [08:39] <ezyang> So Hixie landed a change to the spec which implies that crazy stuff like that should get passed through without harm
  111. # [08:39] <ezyang> But that doesn't have any legal surrogates...
  112. # [08:42] <ezyang> I think I should send him mail about this
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  114. # [08:46] <hsivonen> ezyang: aside from lone surrogates, the weirdo characters that can now be used as numeric references were already available if you used them as UTF-8 in the raw stream
  115. # [08:47] <ezyang> UTF-8 doesn't even have a mechanism for building something that long...
  116. # [08:47] <hsivonen> ezyang: what were you about to complain to me about?
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  118. # [08:48] <ezyang> It was my fault; after double checking with the spec all of your changes were correct.
  119. # [08:48] <hsivonen> ezyang: UTF-8 can build code points until 0x10FFFF just fine
  120. # [08:48] <hsivonen> ok
  121. # [08:48] <ezyang> On an unrelated note, have you looked at r3374?
  122. # [08:48] <hsivonen> of the spec?
  123. # [08:48] <ezyang> Yeah
  124. # [08:48] * hsivonen looks
  125. # [08:49] <hsivonen> ezyang: the changes to the Windows-1252 table are questionable, but I'm not sure if they are what existing browsers do
  126. # [08:50] <hsivonen> "If the number is in the range 0x0001 to 0x0008" ... "error" is good
  127. # [08:51] <hsivonen> so, the C1 range stuff I'd have to double-check, but the rest is good
  128. # [08:54] <hsivonen> what's the right way to convert a single-character string to the number corresponding to the code point in JS_
  129. # [08:54] <hsivonen> ?
  130. # [08:57] <hsivonen> charCodeAt
  131. # [08:59] <hsivonen> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/159
  132. # [09:00] <hsivonen> have to wait for Windows to boot to have a verdict...
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  134. # [09:06] <ezyang> hsivonen: The interesting bit is how error handling changed
  135. # [09:07] <ezyang> Instead of replacing it with U+FFFD, we pass it through.
  136. # [09:07] <ezyang> This results in hilarity with large numeric entities
  137. # [09:07] <hsivonen> ezyang: larger than 0x10FFFF?
  138. # [09:07] <ezyang> yep
  139. # [09:07] <Philip`> ezyang: I think numericEntities.test and unicodeChars.test were generated by me with a Perl script that I might have not uploaded anywhere
  140. # [09:08] <hsivonen> oh. those should still becode U+FFFD
  141. # [09:08] <ezyang> Yep
  142. # [09:08] <hsivonen> if the spec now says otherwise, it's a bug
  143. # [09:08] <ezyang> I wrote a script to convert them, so don't worry about it
  144. # [09:08] <ezyang> Well, Hixie very deliberately changed it to match browser behavior
  145. # [09:08] <hsivonen> ezyang: what's browser behavior for > 0x10FFFF?
  146. # [09:08] <ezyang> Firefox simply ignores the character
  147. # [09:09] <hsivonen> that's not good
  148. # [09:09] <ezyang> Don't have access to other browsers at the moment
  149. # [09:09] <Hixie> oops, i thought i'd already made > 10FFFF get not parsed as a charref
  150. # [09:09] <Philip`> I thought Firefox wrapped values larger than 2^32
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  152. # [09:09] <ezyang> I could have missed that cluedump
  153. # [09:09] <Hixie> webkit treats &#x110000; as &amp;#x110000;
  154. # [09:09] <hsivonen> not great, either
  155. # [09:10] <ezyang> Hixie: I dropped you mail about it, ftr
  156. # [09:10] <hsivonen> hrm. my test case isn't working in IE at all
  157. # [09:10] <Hixie> thanks
  158. # [09:11] <ezyang> It's way past my bedtime. Let me know what we decide :-)
  159. # [09:11] <Hixie> it's on my pile
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  161. # [09:11] <Hixie> my latency is about a month right now
  162. # [09:12] <hsivonen> how do I get the DOMString out of a text node in IE?
  163. # [09:12] <hsivonen> it's been a long time since I've written IE workaround JS
  164. # [09:12] <Hixie> .data
  165. # [09:12] <hsivonen> thanks
  166. # [09:13] <hsivonen> no, that's not it
  167. # [09:13] <hsivonen> nodeValue is supposed to be a prop on the object...
  168. # [09:13] <hsivonen> hmm. does IE go crazy if a node value contains a bad character?
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  170. # [09:14] <hsivonen> nope. that's not the reason
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  172. # [09:15] <hsivonen> something is going badly wrong in my testing in IE
  173. # [09:15] <hsivonen> I feel clueless
  174. # [09:18] <hsivonen> anyway, whatever IE does, it's not mapping the unmapped characters of Windows-1252 C1 range to U+FFFD
  175. # [09:19] <Hixie> .data definitely gets you the text out of Text node in IE last i checked
  176. # [09:19] <hsivonen> Opinions on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=503210 for Web DOM Core?
  177. # [09:20] <Hixie> re bug, no opinion. what's the use case?
  178. # [09:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm failing to get even innerHTML out of an element or .length out of a text node in Live DOM Viewer in IE
  179. # [09:20] <Hixie> have you tried with just regular text?
  180. # [09:20] <Hixie> maybe their serialiser is barfing
  181. # [09:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: serializing any DOM as a JS script that recreates the DOM
  182. # [09:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: I tried with 'a'
  183. # [09:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: same result, which is weird
  184. # [09:21] <Hixie> what's the use case for serializing any DOM as a JS script that recreates the DOM?
  185. # [09:21] <Hixie> odd
  186. # [09:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: fuzzing
  187. # [09:21] <Hixie> so testing? not a platform feature?
  188. # [09:21] <Hixie> does the innerHTML part of the live dom viewer itself work?
  189. # [09:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes
  190. # [09:22] <Hixie> then i dunno what's going on
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  193. # [09:27] <Hixie> hsivonen: did you implement the spec or webkit behaviour for table taint in the html5.parser?
  194. # [09:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: WebKit behavior
  195. # [09:33] <Hixie> anything to report?
  196. # [09:33] <hsivonen> nothing regarading Web compat regarding taint to report
  197. # [09:33] <jgraham> hsivonen: which version of IE?
  198. # [09:34] <hsivonen> the only problems have been with Gecko-only test suites
  199. # [09:34] <hsivonen> the only taint problems that is
  200. # [09:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: IE8 on Windows XP SP3
  201. # [09:34] <jgraham> hsivonen: AFAICT IE8 is broken in the live dom viewer
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  203. # [09:34] <jgraham> At least for me on windows 7
  204. # [09:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, it's broken in a really subtle way
  205. # [09:35] <hsivonen> because I can w() the text node object
  206. # [09:35] <Hixie> hsivonen:
  207. # [09:35] <Hixie> er
  208. # [09:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: k
  209. # [09:35] <jgraham> hsivonen: oh. Well the whole w() function is broken for me
  210. # [09:35] <Hixie> i guess i'll make <table><b>do</b> <b>do</b> do <b>do</b> <b>do</b></table> parse as "dodo do dodo" instead of "do do do do do" tomorrow then
  211. # [09:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: nice
  212. # [09:36] <Hixie> not really, but it's hard to argue with your points :-)
  213. # [09:36] <Hixie> the list of things in html5 i disagree with is growing quite long
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  224. # [10:10] <Mrmil> Hi, imagine a category tree structure and you are to select a category for your article, how would you do that? <select> with nested <optgroup>s seems to be an interesting idea but you cannot select XYZ category marked up with label="XYZ category" because it is, well, a label. I looked into the archives, saw some mails about it, but the spec is silent about this...
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  230. # [10:34] <Philip`> Mrmil: <select>/<option> with indentation of the option text to indicate nesting?
  231. # [10:34] <Philip`> (That doesn't seem very nice but I guess it sort of works)
  232. # [10:39] <Mrmil> Philip`: Yeah, we're currently using that, but I don't think it's too accessible. If the optgroup mechanism was capable of doing it, it would be awesome
  233. # [10:50] * Philip` wonders if something like <details><legend><input type=radio>Category</legend><details><legend><input type=radio>Sub-category</legend><input type=radio>Sub-sub-category</details></details> would be appropriate semantics
  234. # [10:50] <Philip`> (plus some <label>s or whatever)
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  240. # [11:07] <Mrmil> looks quite interesting...
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  242. # [11:15] * hsivonen wonders if "slut" in Shane's blog URL triggered the "courtesy preview" on tinyarro.ws
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  248. # [11:37] <hsivonen> http://blog.halindrome.com/2009/07/w3c-you-ignorant-slut.html?showComment=1247069810064#c2703275792180082243
  249. # [11:39] <takkaria> Shane seems to think that walled garden
  250. # [11:39] <takkaria> +s are worth supporting explicitly
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  252. # [11:41] <Philip`> and presumably worth supporting as first-class citizens of the language, rather than using <div class> and data-* attributes or similar extensibility mechanisms
  253. # [11:44] <jgraham> I'm not sure I take people seriously who come out with statements like "[HTML 5 is a] bloated monstrosity that already kills the battery on your phone"
  254. # [11:45] <takkaria> I'm not sure I take people seriously who answer "why modularise a spec?" with "because modularisation itself is the benefit"
  255. # [11:46] <takkaria> though I guess the answer was also "because of the mindset behind it", but that seems to be to be someone who aims for theoretical purity and would probably be unsuited to actually editing HTML5 in a way that wasn't theoretically pure
  256. # [11:47] * hsivonen finds https://www.psd2html.com/order-now.html ISO 9001-certified.
  257. # [11:47] <Philip`> jgraham: Seems to be a strange and not entirely coherent mixture of complaining about the size of the language and complaining about the size of the single-page specification
  258. # [11:48] <othermaciej> oh, I saw that post and I didn't notice that was Shane McCarron's blog
  259. # [11:48] <Philip`> hsivonen: Someone should tell them they're allowed to write more than one line of code per <script>
  260. # [11:50] <Philip`> takkaria: It sounds to me like the mindset is about allowing extensibility, not about theoretical purity
  261. # [11:51] * hsivonen notes it was jax from Opera who brought up phone batteries
  262. # [11:51] <takkaria> you could split HTML5 up into multiple modules and not have any more extension points than you have now, though
  263. # [11:52] <hsivonen> takkaria: or you could have prescribed extension points as in XHTML M12N but the wrong points
  264. # [11:52] <hsivonen> (see XHTML MP)
  265. # [11:52] * Philip` wonders who jax is, then finds http://my.opera.com/jax/blog/2009/07/07/an-xhtml-2-far
  266. # [11:54] <Philip`> takkaria: Indeed, which is why the important thing is the mindset behind M12N (of providing well-defined extensibility points that are on an equal footing to the HTML markup itself) and not the mechanism of splitting the spec into modules
  267. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> Philip`: jax is Jonny Axelsson
  268. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> Opera employee
  269. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> or former one now, maybe
  270. # [11:56] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I figured that out after finding his blog :-)
  271. # [11:57] <hsivonen> former?
  272. # [11:57] * MikeSmith hasn't read the blog yet
  273. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm not sure if he still works for Opera
  274. # [11:57] * hsivonen sees "now that I don't work for Opera anymore"
  275. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> hadn't heard much about/for him for a long time
  276. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> about/from
  277. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> I wonder who he does work for
  278. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> he was living in Prague still, I think
  279. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> is living in Praque, has been for a few years now
  280. # [12:03] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  281. # [12:05] <Lachy> JohnResig, yt?
  282. # [12:05] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0D%0A.a%20%7B%20-o-link%3A%20attr(href)%3B%20-o-link-source%3A%20next%3B%20%7D%0D%0A.b%20%7B%20-o-link%3A%20attr(href)%3B%20-o-link-source%3A%20current%3B%20%7D%0D%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%20class%3D%22a%22%20href%3D%22javascript%3Aalert(1)%22%3EClick%20me%0D%0A%3Cp%20class%3D%22b%22%20href%3D%22javascript%3Aalert(2)%22%3EClick%20me%0D%0A
  283. # [12:05] <Philip`> Uh, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/160
  284. # [12:05] <Philip`> I never knew Opera did that
  285. # [12:05] <Lachy> JohnResig, I'm just wondering if you've had a chance to work on the selectors api test suite yet.
  286. # [12:07] <Lachy> Philip`, what does -o-link-source do?
  287. # [12:08] * jgraham guesses it sets rel or something
  288. # [12:08] <othermaciej> I can report that, of the bits of HTML5 we have implemented so far, none seem to be particularly bad for phone battery
  289. # [12:08] <Philip`> Lachy: It makes the element into a link, using the -o-link of the current or next element (or something like that)
  290. # [12:09] <Philip`> (In that example, both lines use the href from the second line)
  291. # [12:09] <Lachy> ok
  292. # [12:10] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe 'next' chooses the next element (in tree order) that has -o-link
  293. # [12:11] <Philip`> so you could e.g. say <td style=-o-link-source:next><img src><a href=... style=-o-link:attr(href)>...</a></td> or whatever
  294. # [12:11] <Philip`> (to make the whole cell into a link)
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  452. # [12:22] * gsnedders thinks he ought to set up some wiki for himself
  453. # [12:22] <gsnedders> But I already treat my blog like a wiki in a lot of ways
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  455. # [12:24] <Philip`> gsnedders: Do you have edit wars with yourself?
  456. # [12:24] <gsnedders> Philip`: Rarely, just constantly building upon what I wrote earlier
  457. # [12:26] <Philip`> gsnedders: Do you mindlessly vandalise your pages?
  458. # [12:27] <Philip`> It's not sounding much like a wiki at all
  459. # [12:28] <jgraham> Philip`: Have you /read/ gsnedders poetry?
  460. # [12:30] <Philip`> jgraham: No :-p
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  469. # [12:33] <gsnedders> jgraham: in parts I agree with the mindless. I'm not sure whether it's really vandalism though.
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  478. # [12:39] <jgraham> I like to think of it as mindless vandalism of the mind
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  482. # [12:40] <gsnedders> Oh, but my mind was already mindlessly vandalised before writing them.
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  501. # [13:51] <hsivonen> grr. why have my GWT Eclipse launch configs become unlauchable...
  502. # [13:52] <JohnResig> Lachy: hey, I haven't had a chance yet - I've needed to finish up some other things before moving on to that
  503. # [13:52] <JohnResig> Lachy: it's on my list, hoping to tackle it very soon
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  505. # [13:54] <Lachy> ok
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  509. # [13:56] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to know how to make Eclipse re-acknowledge the ".launch" file name extension?
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  517. # [14:02] <hsivonen> Safari with <!-- a -- !> is interesting
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  519. # [14:03] <pesla> hsivonen, i *think* you can just assign file associations in General -> Editors -> File Associations
  520. # [14:06] <hsivonen> heh. IE8 has the same comment buffer trimming strategy I implemented as opposed to what Hixie specced, except they haven't been careful enough with edge cases to hide the impl. details
  521. # [14:06] * pauld_ is now known as pauld
  522. # [14:06] <hsivonen> Upon >, they trim the accumulated buffer by two from the end
  523. # [14:07] <hsivonen> pesla: can't find a way to associate it with launching as opposed to an editor :-(
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  528. # [14:35] <hsivonen> aargh. I broke livedom.validator.nu
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  535. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> wow. Glazman blog rendering prked in latest Minefield
  536. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> http://www.glazman.org/weblog/
  537. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> on Linux at least, in my environment
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  539. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> sayrer: you awake?
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  543. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> in my minefield, glazou looks like this:
  544. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> http://people.w3.org/mike/gecko/glazou.png
  545. # [15:10] <jgraham> MikeSmith: WFM using a recentish build with html5.enable
  546. # [15:10] <jgraham> on linux
  547. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> OK
  548. # [15:11] <jgraham> Oh, my build seems to be way more out of date than I thought
  549. # [15:11] <jgraham> (2009-07-03)
  550. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> this is with very latest minefield -- today or yesterday
  551. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> and same thing with html5.enabled false
  552. # [15:21] <Lachy> jgraham, doesn't Minefield do automatic updates for you every day?
  553. # [15:22] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I see the problem - the text is yucky and un-antialiased :-(
  554. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> Lachy: you can turn that auto-update thing off
  555. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> Philip`: good eye!
  556. # [15:22] <Lachy> MikeSmith, ok. Why would you, though?
  557. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> Lachy: because it's stupid?
  558. # [15:23] <Lachy> is that a question or a statement?
  559. # [15:23] <jgraham> Lachy: It offers to upgrade every day but I often ignore it
  560. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> Lachy: are you asking or making a suggestion?
  561. # [15:24] <jgraham> Are we playing questions?
  562. # [15:24] <Lachy> Mine automatically downloads the updates and installs them whenever I restart.
  563. # [15:24] * gsnedders tries to write Ruby
  564. # [15:25] <Philip`> gsnedders: Which kind of Ruby?
  565. # [15:25] <Lachy> gsnedders, that's a very short word to write, but well done. You succeeded.
  566. # [15:26] <jgraham> Didn't Lachy just lose?
  567. # [15:26] <gsnedders> ph
  568. # [15:26] <gsnedders> Philip`: The shiny one
  569. # [15:26] <Lachy> jgraham, we were playing a game?
  570. # [15:27] <Philip`> gsnedders: Animal, vegetable, or mineral?
  571. # [15:27] <Lachy> Philip`, Animal
  572. # [15:28] <gsnedders> Philip`: The shiny one.
  573. # [15:29] <Philip`> So gsnedders is writing a Ruby that is a shiny animal?
  574. # [15:29] <gsnedders> Yes.
  575. # [15:29] <gsnedders> (And I'm saying that just because Hixie can't, because he says he never lies)
  576. # [15:30] <jgraham> Couldn't that be a lie?
  577. # [15:36] <gsnedders> Hah! No wonder he's doing so well at controlling the future of the intarwebs!
  578. # [15:47] <eighty4> is <b> and <i> actually going to be left in html5?
  579. # [15:52] <jgraham> Why wouldn't they be?
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  581. # [15:54] <eighty4> seems they is all ready represented by <strong> for example. And it doesn't seem to be a good example for when to use them. Or why would the specs say this: "In the previous example, the correct element to use would have been strong, not b."?
  582. # [15:54] * Joins: svl (n=me@86.87.68.167)
  583. # [15:55] <eighty4> uhm... nevermind that quote :)
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  587. # [16:08] <Lachy> eighty4, http://lachy.id.au/log/2007/05/b-and-i
  588. # [16:09] <eighty4> Lachy: thanks :D
  589. # [16:14] <eighty4> Lachy: but given there definition how is the names of them motivated? <aside>, <article> and so on describes their intended use. How does <b> describe it's use? Or isn't that important?
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  591. # [16:16] <beowulf> eighty4: how does b not describe it's intended use?
  592. # [16:16] <eighty4> Sorry if I'm bringing up already discussed stuff. Haven't read up on my html5 :/
  593. # [16:21] <jgraham> So I have a problem. I have a test harness which loads testcases into an iframe. It is not impossible that those testcases will cause infinite loops or other bad behaviour so it would be nice to be able to set a timeout and kill the script if the timeout is reached
  594. # [16:22] <jgraham> Howwever this doesn't seem to be easy; the event loop seems to prioritise running the existing script above anything else.
  595. # [16:22] <jgraham> (run to completion I guess)
  596. # [16:22] <Lachy> eighty4, b is intended for use cases which are commenly represented typographically in bold text, but for which no specific semantic element exists
  597. # [16:23] <Lachy> eighty4, it would be unreasonable to have to create separate semantic elements to individually cover each of those cases, when it wouldn't gain any benefit over using the generic element
  598. # [16:23] <jgraham> Is there some way I force the source of the iframe to change before the testcase script has finished running?
  599. # [16:23] <Lachy> similarly for the i element
  600. # [16:23] <eighty4> beowulf: from what I understand it's not intended to represent bold text but rather like Lachy just wrote "text usually written in bold"
  601. # [16:23] <jgraham> (or close the window with the iframe in or delete the iframe or something, as long as it causes the script to die)
  602. # [16:24] <Lachy> eighty4, the names are retained for backwards compatibility reasons. It's best not to read too much into just the name of the element. It's the definition that matters mose
  603. # [16:25] <eighty4> Lachy: that explanation was good :) Not sure I'm agreeing with you but still.
  604. # [16:25] <takkaria> jgraham: I'm guessing that setTimeout() isn't being your friend
  605. # [16:25] <Lachy> jgraham, I don't know of any way to achieve that, unless perhaps setting the iframe's window.location to a new page interrupts any scripts running within the iframe
  606. # [16:25] <eighty4> Lachy: I got that backward compatiblility reason :) Just not a big fan of that either.
  607. # [16:26] <Lachy> eighty4, it's really just a matter of being pragmatic over theoretical purity
  608. # [16:26] <jgraham> Lachy: setting the <iframe>.src doesn't
  609. # [16:26] <eighty4> Lachy: have nothing to do today and haven't been reading much about html5 so I'm catching up.
  610. # [16:26] <eighty4> I'm not intending to start an argument
  611. # [16:26] <Lachy> jgraham, what about iframe.contentWindow.location?
  612. # [16:27] <jgraham> Lachy: OK I will try it
  613. # [16:27] <Lachy> eighty4, no worries. You've been much more pleasant and understanding than the person I debated this with over twitter 2 days ago
  614. # [16:28] <eighty4> Lachy: I'm not really bothered with html5 having it, but I can imagine it being missused.
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  616. # [16:28] <Lachy> indeed. It will be.
  617. # [16:29] <takkaria> I'm not sure it makes any difference if it's "misused"
  618. # [16:29] <takkaria> the idea that <strong> is more accessible than <b> in any way is a red herring
  619. # [16:30] <eighty4> takkaria: but <b> will still give bold text I assume?
  620. # [16:30] <takkaria> well, yeah
  621. # [16:30] <takkaria> just like <strong> does
  622. # [16:30] <eighty4> true
  623. # [16:30] <takkaria> they are equivalent on the vast mojority of pages
  624. # [16:30] <takkaria> except those select few which change default styling for either
  625. # [16:31] * jgraham mutters about how badly designed the 'this' semantics are in javascript
  626. # [16:32] <jgraham> Hmm, deleting the iframe seems to work well
  627. # [16:32] <eighty4> takkaria: but still, <strong> have semantic meaning while <b> doesn't. From what I understand
  628. # [16:32] <takkaria> they both have meaning
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  630. # [16:33] <eighty4> * just not as clear semantic meaning then :)
  631. # [16:33] <takkaria> I'm not sure <strong> has a particularly clear meaning either
  632. # [16:33] <eighty4> it have a better meaning for me at least. But that doesn't really say anything
  633. # [16:34] <takkaria> they're basically synonyms, discussing which one is "better" seems to be a waste of everyone's time
  634. # [16:34] <takkaria> I seem to have acquired a stronger view on this than I used to have. :)
  635. # [16:35] <beowulf> i've developed the strong view that it just doesn't matter
  636. # [16:35] <eighty4> takkaria: I'm doing my best on wasting my time on meanless stuff right now. Third day on my "time off"
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  638. # [16:38] <takkaria> I really wish people had never used the word "semantic" in conjunction with the web, "meaning" is much less opaque and you couldn't get consturctions like "semantic meaning"
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  640. # [16:40] <eighty4> But I'll stop bothering you now
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  642. # [16:41] <Lachy> eighty4, without <i>, which element would you use to mark up a ship name, which is conventionally rendered in italics?
  643. # [16:43] <eighty4> Lachy: <title>, <name> or something similar. But yes. It would be a challange to figure out what that element should be named
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  645. # [16:43] <Lachy> so you're advocating creating a new element for each case like that?
  646. # [16:43] <Lachy> even though there are potentially dozens of such cases?
  647. # [16:43] <eighty4> no, not really. Haven thought about it that much
  648. # [16:44] <eighty4> It just feels like there should be a better name for <i> then i
  649. # [16:44] <eighty4> but I guess there isn't
  650. # [16:44] <takkaria> a better name for representating traditioanlly italicised text than "italic"? :)
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  652. # [16:45] <eighty4> it seems there should ba a name for the italic "meaning"
  653. # [16:45] <eighty4> *should be
  654. # [16:46] * eighty4 doesn't like his new espresso.
  655. # [16:46] <eighty4> I should buy new
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  659. # [16:52] <Lachy> Reading Shelly's latest on www-archive, it seems she prefers to work under the assumption that Microsoft isn't acting in good faith and has convinced her self that they're going to object to everything as soon as we try to go to LC
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  730. # [20:50] <takkaria> I really wish people would stop referring to HTML5 as "the spec to build a browser"
  731. # [20:51] <sicking> takkaria, indeed, it's not just for browsers
  732. # [20:51] <sicking> and you need a lot more to build a browser, like http and css
  733. # [20:51] <takkaria> given that I refer to it fairly often when writing JS, I think it's a wholly inaccurate title given only to rile people
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  737. # [20:57] <aja> hsivonen: ping
  738. # [21:02] <gsnedders> takkaria: But do you understand the event loop?
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  740. # [21:02] <gsnedders> Does anyone (apart from H) understand the event loop!?
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  748. # [21:07] <aja> hsivonen: are you aware of any remaining gecko figure/legend issues with new parser? i'm looking into 1...perhaps just some default stylesheet additions needed still
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  794. # [23:24] <ezyang> I'm kind of curious to know if anyone is using php html5lib
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  796. # [23:27] <Philip`> ezyang: Add some code to it that pings a URL whenever someone runs the library
  797. # [23:27] <ezyang> Har har har :-P
  798. # [23:27] <Philip`> That's what the Python one does
  799. # [23:28] <ezyang> Wait, are you serious?
  800. # [23:28] <ezyang> That's not actually acceptable.
  801. # [23:28] * Philip` is rarely serious :-)
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  806. # [23:31] * Hixie reads the htmlwg minutes and wonders if maybe it could be a prerequisite that people who ask for changes to html5 actually read it first
  807. # [23:32] <Hixie> or at least the relevant sections
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  811. # [23:38] <Lachy> Hixie, which points in the telcon minutes are you referring to?
  812. # [23:40] <cying> Hixie: what fun would that be?
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  819. # Session Close: Fri Jul 10 00:00:00 2009

The end :)