/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-07-12 / end

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  36. # [05:39] * Hixie tries to work out why photobooth won't start if you have no physical monitor plugged in
  37. # [05:39] <jacobolus> anyone know exactly which browsers treat --!> as a comment end?
  38. # [05:39] <Hixie> and why if you start it while a monitor is plugged in, and then take the monitor out, the preview window goes white, but you can still take pictures
  39. # [05:40] * jacobolus noticed hsivonen's note that his parser doesn't do it yet, but that apparently it's supported elsewhere
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  45. # [06:32] <MikeSmith> jacobolus: hsivonen raised and HTML WG bugzilla bug for that, did you see it?
  46. # [06:32] <MikeSmith> I think he has a link to a mozilla bug report
  47. # [06:32] * MikeSmith goes looking
  48. # [06:33] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7089
  49. # [06:33] <MikeSmith> Gecko bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=502984
  50. # [06:33] <MikeSmith> Site: http://www.erc.gov.ph/
  51. # [06:35] <jacobolus> MikeSmith: so do all major browsers support that?
  52. # [06:35] <jacobolus> i.e. close the comment when they see --!>
  53. # [06:36] <jacobolus> (I guess I could test out a bunch of them.... but I thought someone might know)
  54. # [06:37] <MikeSmith> jacobolus: I don't know myself. I guess the way to be sure is to test it and see what you get
  55. # [06:37] <jacobolus> ok
  56. # [06:37] <MikeSmith> but based on hsivonen comments there, it seems like that do
  57. # [06:37] <MikeSmith> *they do
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  59. # [06:43] <jacobolus> FF 2&3, & Safari 4 do, but Opera doesn't seem to
  60. # [06:43] <jacobolus> maybe I should file an opera bug
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  62. # [06:45] <jacobolus> (though they probably know this, w/ annevk &c. paying attention)
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  64. # [07:00] <jacobolus> oh wow, the opera behavior is odd indeed
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  66. # [07:00] <jacobolus> if it only finds --!>, then it treats it as a comment ending
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  68. # [07:00] <jacobolus> but if there's --> anywhere later, it'll use that as the end of the comment
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  70. # [07:01] <jacobolus> swallowing anything in between
  71. # [07:01] <jacobolus> so adding a comment way down the page completely changes rendering
  72. # [07:01] <jacobolus> I guess I will file that bug
  73. # [07:09] <jacobolus> for any opera devs here, bug 258698
  74. # [07:15] <jacobolus> example html that causes this behavior in latest Opera 10 preview: http://pastie.textmate.org/542877
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  77. # [07:38] <jacobolus> (hsivonen/Hixie: you might be interested in that... dunno)
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  96. # [09:16] <Philip`> jacobolus: If I remember correctly, if it reaches EOF with an unclosed comment then it re-parses and closes the comment on the first >, or something like that
  97. # [09:17] <jacobolus> huh. well I can put in multiple 'fake' comments and they work fine
  98. # [09:17] <jacobolus> but as soon as I add a real one, even way down the page, they all break
  99. # [09:17] <jacobolus> you could be right that that's the behavior. I'll test a bit
  100. # [09:18] <jacobolus> Philip`: huh, you seem to be right
  101. # [09:18] <jacobolus> so they probably already had this as a bug
  102. # [09:19] <jacobolus> sadly, the database is closed...
  103. # [09:21] <jacobolus> yeah, it seems to eat everything up to the first > it finds, if it can't find a -->
  104. # [09:21] <jacobolus> which means that it tends to eat some opening tag
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  145. # [16:40] <jgraham> http://detexify.kirelabs.org/classify.html
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  147. # [16:44] <gsnedders> jgraham: cool
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  156. # [18:07] <gsnedders> takkaria: yt?
  157. # [18:08] <takkaria> gsnedders: sort of
  158. # [18:08] <gsnedders> takkaria: How long did it take to get to Roxen?
  159. # [18:08] <takkaria> hmm
  160. # [18:09] <gsnedders> (and back)
  161. # [18:09] <takkaria> maybe two hours there, one hour back
  162. # [18:09] <gsnedders> hmm, so I could go today
  163. # [18:09] <takkaria> I stopped and took photos lots though
  164. # [18:09] * gsnedders heads off
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  167. # [18:18] * gsnedders looks out of window one final time and sees huge dark clouds towards Roxen…
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  172. # [18:26] <gsnedders_> Just getting cloudier and cloudier
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  179. # [18:55] <jgraham> So I am wondering about implementing the new table character data stuff in html5lib
  180. # [18:55] <Philip`> Sounds like a good idea to me
  181. # [18:56] <jgraham> It seems like it might be nice to return all character data from the tokenizer together rather than special casing whitespace in some circumstances
  182. # [18:56] <jgraham> So all the logic about whitespce being special would be on the treebuilder side
  183. # [18:57] <jgraham> But I'm not sure if this is just crazy talk or not
  184. # [18:58] * jgraham wonders what hsivonen does
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  191. # [19:47] <Simetrical> So <!doctype html> actually triggers different behavior from old doctypes, it seems?
  192. # [19:47] <Simetrical> That's . . . bad?
  193. # [19:47] <Philip`> Simetrical: Depends which old doctypes you mean
  194. # [19:47] <Simetrical> Well, I'm working on switching Wikipedia from XHTML 1.0 Transitional to HTML 5.
  195. # [19:48] <Simetrical> When I switch the doctype, rendering breaks.
  196. # [19:48] <Simetrical> That will make things *much* more complicated.
  197. # [19:48] <Simetrical> I had thought that the doctype was chosen specifically so it would trigger standards mode in all browsers, but it seems that's not quite the case.
  198. # [19:48] <Simetrical> Hmm.
  199. # [19:48] <Philip`> Simetrical: If I'm reading the table on http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ properly, XHTML 1.0 Transitional is "Almost Standards"
  200. # [19:48] <Simetrical> Yeah, I just read that too.
  201. # [19:48] <Philip`> (and <!doctype html> is "Standards")
  202. # [19:49] <Simetrical> Okay, I'm going to have to come up with a test case here.
  203. # [19:49] <Simetrical> Because I'm seeing the rendering break in Chrome.
  204. # [19:49] <Simetrical> I'll figure out what's going on.
  205. # [19:49] <Philip`> Hopefully there shouldn't be that many differences between almost-standards and standards
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  207. # [19:49] * Philip` doesn't remember exactly what the differences are, though
  208. # [19:49] <Simetrical> Oh, I see.
  209. # [19:50] <Simetrical> Hmm.
  210. # [19:50] <Philip`> Oh, http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ already talks about Almost Standards
  211. # [19:50] <Simetrical> Current MediaWiki doctype: <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
  212. # [19:50] <Philip`> "which implements the vertical sizing of table cells traditionally and not rigorously according to the CSS2 specification"
  213. # [19:51] <Simetrical> It looks like the doctype change is switching three browsers from "almost standards" to "standards".
  214. # [19:51] <Simetrical> Specifically including . . . all recent browsers.
  215. # [19:51] <Philip`> That sounds correct
  216. # [19:52] <Simetrical> So more changes will be required to ensure that pages continue to render correctly.
  217. # [19:52] <Simetrical> Ugh. Okay.
  218. # [19:52] <Philip`> Sounds like image-in-table is about the only difference
  219. # [19:53] <Philip`> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Images%2c_Tables%2c_and_Mysterious_Gaps etc
  220. # [19:53] <Simetrical> We have some of those, I guess, but that's not the difference I'm seeing.
  221. # [19:53] <Philip`> Hmm, what difference are you seeing?
  222. # [19:54] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-98-248-43-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  223. # [19:54] <Philip`> or maybe it's better to wait for a test case :-)
  224. # [19:54] <Simetrical> Well, look at any page of Wikipedia in the default skin. The whole nav bar thing on the left below the logo gets pushed down below the end of the page in Chrome 3 with an HTML 5 doctype.
  225. # [19:56] * Quits: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  226. # [19:59] <Philip`> Hmm, same in Safari 4.0
  227. # [20:02] <Simetrical> But not Firefox 3.5.
  228. # [20:04] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-87-102-93-219.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  229. # [20:04] <Philip`> Nor Opera
  230. # [20:05] <Philip`> Might be some kind of WebKit bug
  231. # [20:05] <Simetrical> If it breaks the site for all Safari users, that means we can't switch the doctype right now.
  232. # [20:05] <Simetrical> I'm trying to make a minimal test case.
  233. # [20:07] <Philip`> There's approximately zero benefit in changing the doctype, so it doesn't seem worth hurting users
  234. # [20:07] <Philip`> though I suppose it's nice to make browsers do Standards instead of Almost Standards
  235. # [20:08] <Simetrical> Well, the idea is to actually deploy valid HTML 5, which means switching the doctype.
  236. # [20:08] <Simetrical> My understanding is that the point of the HTML 5 doctype is to make sure that old content will work.
  237. # [20:09] <Philip`> I think the point is to make old content work the same as if it used an old Standards mode doctype (e.g. XHTML Strict), and also to be as short as possible
  238. # [20:10] <Simetrical> Aha.
  239. # [20:10] <Simetrical> You know, it might be WebKit-specific JavaScript hacks in MediaWiki itself.
  240. # [20:10] <Philip`> If there wasn't quirks mode, then HTML5 would probably have no doctype at all
  241. # [20:10] <Simetrical> Yes, agreed.
  242. # [20:10] <Philip`> Hmm, that's possible
  243. # [20:10] <Simetrical> Okay, bingo.
  244. # [20:11] <Simetrical> wikibits.js is the problem.
  245. # [20:11] * Philip` has tried playing with the CSS briefly and couldn't see what the problem was
  246. # [20:11] <Simetrical> I just started removing chunks of the head and body.
  247. # [20:11] <Simetrical> When I removed the script tags the problem stopped.
  248. # [20:11] <Philip`> Hooray for browser sniffing :-)
  249. # [20:11] <Simetrical> Yeah. :(
  250. # [20:14] <Simetrical> I'm not sure it's the browser sniffing . . .
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  254. # [20:18] <Simetrical> Bingo, KHTMLFixes.css.
  255. # [20:19] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z9132.z.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  256. # [20:24] <Philip`> Excellent, IE silently rejects EOT fonts if the Font Family Name is not a prefix of the Full Font Name
  257. # [20:25] <Philip`> (even though an equivalent font works perfectly well in the rest of Windows)
  258. # [20:25] <Philip`> s/font/TTF font/
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  261. # [20:56] <Simetrical> Okay, Wikipedia HTML 5 deployment back on track.
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  266. # [21:07] <Simetrical> Serving a five-year-old CSS fix for KHTML to modern WebKit development versions = epic fail.
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  293. # Session Close: Mon Jul 13 00:00:00 2009

The end :)