/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-07-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 13 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  38. # [04:32] <MikeSmith> http://svwebbuilder.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/html-5-the-future-is-now/
  39. # [04:32] <MikeSmith> "The WebSocket JavaScript API provides the equivalent of a desktop style TCP connection, limited to text-based payloads for now, because JavaScript does not yet have a byte or ByteArray type."
  40. # [04:32] <MikeSmith> I thought Javascript does actually have a byte type
  41. # [04:34] <doublec> nope
  42. # [04:34] <doublec> arrays of numbers is what you need to do for byte arrays
  43. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> I see
  44. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> What's the rationale for it not having a byte type?
  45. # [04:35] <othermaciej> array of numbers and improper string are the two ways of doing it
  46. # [04:36] <othermaciej> there is no rationale, just hasn't been done yet
  47. # [04:36] <othermaciej> (although I don't think there is really a good strawman spec before the ECMAScript committee yet for a type to hold binary data)
  48. # [04:36] <othermaciej> array of numbers is much much much less efficient than a proper ByteArray could be
  49. # [04:37] <MikeSmith> I guess it'll be especially limiting in the case of WebSocket-based apps
  50. # [04:37] <doublec> yes
  51. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> "The WebSocket wire protocol itself can represent either binary or text payloads, so languages other than JavaScript that do have a binary representation can choose to send binary data to a WebSocket server in the raw, rather than having to encode the binary data as text."
  52. # [04:38] <doublec> I wrote some code to read/process Ogg files from JavaScript and used the improper string approach
  53. # [04:38] <doublec> but it's not cross platform afaik since there's no way to say 'give me binary data' from xmlhttprequest
  54. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> well, seems like we are going to have a much more compelling need for it, once websocket gets supported in browsers
  55. # [04:44] <othermaciej> there is already a pretty compelling need for it
  56. # [04:44] <othermaciej> binary XHR is a pretty big use case
  57. # [04:44] <othermaciej> IMO
  58. # [04:44] <othermaciej> there's no clean way to either upload or retrieve binary data via XHR
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  60. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: so nobody's submitted a spec proposal to the ECMAScript TC yet?
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  62. # [04:51] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: there have been some vague proposals
  63. # [04:51] <othermaciej> maybe I will try to propose something more concrete
  64. # [04:51] <othermaciej> this is the biggest hole in standards development right now IMO
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  66. # [04:55] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: concrete proposal would be great to have
  67. # [04:56] <MikeSmith> I want to be the first to write a VOIP server in Javascript :)
  68. # [04:56] <othermaciej> there's bigger pieces missing there than binary data
  69. # [04:57] <othermaciej> like the ability to play and record raw audio data
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  75. # [05:26] <heycam> Web IDL has arrays now though, so you can have a type octet[]
  76. # [05:27] <heycam> it's not quite the same as the original ES3 ByteArray
  77. # [05:27] <heycam> no constructor
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  79. # [05:31] <othermaciej> that solves the Web IDL side, but not how you represent it in ECMAScript
  80. # [05:32] <heycam> there's http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-array
  81. # [05:32] <heycam> or do you mean something else
  82. # [05:36] <othermaciej> I see, I didn't know about that
  83. # [05:36] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.224.1)
  84. # [05:36] <othermaciej> I will amend my comment to: I don't think that's a very good way to represent binary data in ECMAScript
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  86. # [05:38] <slightlyoff> othermaciej: generally as an objection to some sort of binary array? or the particulars of this outline which doesn't require changes to JS to do it?
  87. # [05:38] <othermaciej> slightlyoff: I think it's a poor design for a type to deal with binary data
  88. # [05:38] <slightlyoff> ah, OK, +1 to that = )
  89. # [05:39] <othermaciej> I think a binary data type should be immutable, like JS strings
  90. # [05:39] <slightlyoff> hrm
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  92. # [05:39] <othermaciej> or maybe have an explicit copy to get a mutable variant
  93. # [05:39] <slightlyoff> I'd prefer that we have a Packed array type
  94. # [05:39] <slightlyoff> and maybe we have fixed and non-fixed variants
  95. # [05:40] <slightlyoff> with ByteArray being a subclass of that
  96. # [05:40] <slightlyoff> (or uses it to mix in)
  97. # [05:41] <slightlyoff> making it immutable seems maybe less important than not needing to accomidate the sparseness
  98. # [05:41] <heycam> othermaciej, is it just the mutability that you think is a poor choice?
  99. # [05:41] <othermaciej> because a key use case is to hold underlying raw data buffers
  100. # [05:42] <slightlyoff> so there are some cases where we'd like to enforce the length that was handed up?
  101. # [05:42] <heycam> there's a concept of read only arrays: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#dfn-read-only-array
  102. # [05:42] <othermaciej> heycam: well, I'm concerned in general about Web IDL minting new types to that extent
  103. # [05:42] <heycam> and fixed length ones too: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#dfn-fixed-length
  104. # [05:42] <slightlyoff> ugg
  105. # [05:43] <slightlyoff> I mean, not bad, but they seem poorly integrated w/ JS as a language
  106. # [05:43] <slightlyoff> (which prolly means JS needs to catch up)
  107. # [05:43] <othermaciej> I think it has a whole lot of concepts that aren't really used by the existing IDL-using specs, and defining them in this way will make things awkward when/if JS can better represent some of these concepts in the language itself
  108. # [05:43] <othermaciej> I have to go soon
  109. # [05:43] <othermaciej> but as a parting note
  110. # [05:44] <heycam> that's a good point, sure
  111. # [05:44] <othermaciej> perhaps programming in Cocoa has spoiled me, but my experience with NSData convinces me that binary data should be its own kind of basic data type, like strings, rather than treating it like a kind of array
  112. # [05:45] <heycam> i've never programmed in cocoa so i don't know what goodness NSData gives you
  113. # [05:45] <heycam> but anyway, please do comment on the list when you get a chance
  114. # [05:45] <slightlyoff> fair enough, but I'd like that discussion to happen vis-a-vie JS rather than WebIDL, which sounds like what you're suggesting too
  115. # [05:45] <othermaciej> it's not really specific goodness, just the clarity
  116. # [05:45] <othermaciej> yeah, I think this is an issue for the ECMAScript group
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  118. # [05:46] <heycam> they don't seem interested in pushing ByteArray right at the moment
  119. # [05:46] <othermaciej> I think Web IDL should maybe trim back some of the more novel inventions
  120. # [05:46] <heycam> and i think we (the platform) need something like that soon
  121. # [05:46] <slightlyoff> they is us....I say we push it = )
  122. # [05:46] <heycam> othermaciej, sure, sometimes i think i get carried away with the novelties
  123. # [05:46] <othermaciej> I will try to do a review with an eye towards that soon
  124. # [05:47] <heycam> great thanks
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  130. # [06:00] <MikeSmith> Hixie: by "input table", I think Simon meant this:
  131. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#input-type-attr-summary
  132. # [06:01] <Hixie> oh
  133. # [06:01] <Hixie> not sure what to do about that
  134. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> yeah, I don't see what can be done about it either
  135. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> no way to fit the width on a normal page
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  137. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> hmm, I guess the headings could be shortened/abbreviated
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  178. # [09:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: seen https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=503632 yet?
  179. # [09:12] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-240-72.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  180. # [09:14] <Hixie> bug in bugzilla?
  181. # [09:14] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  182. # [09:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: sure, but I think it reveals a parser compat issue
  183. # [09:15] <Hixie> i get screwed up output in safari
  184. # [09:16] <zcorpan> hi everybody
  185. # [09:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan!
  186. # [09:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: did you see the XMLSerializer text/html issue yet?
  187. # [09:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: are you planning on working on a spec that covers XMLSerializer?
  188. # [09:16] <zcorpan> i haven't seen anything yet :)
  189. # [09:17] <Hixie> i don't understand what's going on here
  190. # [09:17] <Hixie> why is this breaking safari?
  191. # [09:17] <Hixie> the testcase works as it claims it should in safari
  192. # [09:17] <zcorpan> hsivonen: dunno
  193. # [09:17] <Hixie> oh i guess there might be comments in the source or something?
  194. # [09:17] <Hixie> fundamentally, if we don't have reparsing, which we can't for security reasons, there's not much we can do as far as i can tell
  195. # [09:18] <Hixie> we can't be perfectly backwards compatible with browsers that have the security bug
  196. # [09:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: there is. If you are not in escape
  197. # [09:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: and
  198. # [09:18] <Hixie> without having that bug ourselves
  199. # [09:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: you see ", you open an escape until " that prevents <!-- from starting an escape
  200. # [09:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: likewise for '
  201. # [09:18] <Hixie> say what?
  202. # [09:19] <Hixie> and what if there's a \' in the string?
  203. # [09:19] <Hixie> or if it's in a regexp?
  204. # [09:19] <hsivonen> If you are parsing CDATA and you aren't in a <!-- escape, and you see ", start a new kind of escape until "
  205. # [09:19] <Hixie> that's ridiculously overly complicated
  206. # [09:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: true
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  208. # [09:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: But I think we do need some restrictions on where a <!-- escape can start
  209. # [09:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: some approximation that prevents it from starting within a JS statement or a CSS property
  210. # [09:21] <Hixie> i would much rather remove the entire cdata escaping mechanism nonsense, than try to handle this case.
  211. # [09:22] <Hixie> especially given that as written, the spec actually handles this case in the authoring conformance criteria
  212. # [09:22] <Hixie> i blanch at the thought of explaining even more complicated rules
  213. # [09:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: whether that helps depends on how often this happens in the wild
  214. # [09:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: and whether it appears on high-profile sites
  215. # [09:23] <hsivonen> Do IE, Gecko, WebKit and Opera all parse back and forth in this case?
  216. # [09:23] * om_out is now known as othermaciej
  217. # [09:24] <othermaciej> standards land is a wacky wacky place
  218. # [09:24] <hsivonen> othermaciej: what now?
  219. # [09:24] <jgraham> What is the point of the escaping test span stuff?
  220. # [09:24] <zcorpan> hsivonen: which case is being discussed?
  221. # [09:24] <othermaciej> just everything about it
  222. # [09:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: the point is that <!-- ... </script> ... --> should not end scripts
  223. # [09:25] <hsivonen> zcorpan: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=500937
  224. # [09:25] * zcorpan has 1182 unread emails
  225. # [09:25] <hsivonen> zcorpan: oops. I answered the wrong question
  226. # [09:26] <hsivonen> zcorpan: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=503632
  227. # [09:26] <Hixie> hsivonen: does it?
  228. # [09:26] <jgraham> hsivonen: Is that needed for compat?
  229. # [09:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: does it appear on high-profile sites? I don't know.
  230. # [09:26] <jgraham> zcorpan: Welcome back :)
  231. # [09:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: I believe <!-- ... </script> ... --> is required for compat
  232. # [09:27] <zcorpan> jgraham: thanks
  233. # [09:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: I haven't researched it myself
  234. # [09:28] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'd like to see how far we can go without having to support this case. given that bugzilla is already broken in safari because of it, i have optimism
  235. # [09:28] <Hixie> possibly misplaced optimism
  236. # [09:28] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121.74.142.46)
  237. # [09:28] <Hixie> but optimism nonetheless!
  238. # [09:28] <zcorpan> hsivonen: disabling <!-- in strings won't do much for web compat i think
  239. # [09:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: maybe we should make <!-- have the escaping effect only if it is preceded by:
  240. # [09:28] * jgraham only has pessimism
  241. # [09:28] <hsivonen> 1) only whitespace
  242. # [09:28] <hsivonen> or
  243. # [09:28] <hsivonen> 2) // and then only whitespace
  244. # [09:28] <hsivonen> or
  245. # [09:28] <hsivonen> 3) /* and then only whitespace
  246. # [09:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: there are pages that have <!-- at the end of scripts
  247. # [09:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: and they require the escaping effect?
  248. # [09:30] <jgraham> hsivonen: Equivalent to the cases where ecmascript engines treat <!-- as the start of a comment
  249. # [09:30] <hsivonen> whee! do we need to roll an ES parser into the HTML5 tokenizer?
  250. # [09:30] <Hixie> hsivonen: given the effects on conformance, i'd rather not make any changes unless it is deemed absolutely necessary for compat. (which isn't that high a bar, in practice)
  251. # [09:31] <Hixie> hsivonen: (but is a high enough bar to slow us down here)
  252. # [09:31] * Joins: poe (n=poe@unaffiliated/xerox)
  253. # [09:32] <jgraham> hsivonen: See http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_ECMAScript#HTML_comments for the treatment of <!-- by ecmascript engines
  254. # [09:32] <hsivonen> how hard it would be to make a small state machine that picks up regexp literals from within an EcmaScript program?
  255. # [09:32] <hsivonen> with reasonable probability that is
  256. # [09:32] <hsivonen> not with 100% accuracy
  257. # [09:33] * jgraham is hopeful that you are overcomplicating this
  258. # [09:34] <Lachy_> Hixie, hsivonen, which existing browser requires that <!-- ... </script> ... --> doesn't end scripts? I just tested non-HTML5 parsing Minefield, Safari, and Opera, and they all close it
  259. # [09:34] <Hixie> Lachy_: make sure you have a trailing </script>
  260. # [09:34] <Hixie> Lachy_: so you don't get caught by the reparsing behaviour
  261. # [09:35] * hsivonen wonders who introduced this stuff into browsers in the first place
  262. # [09:35] <hsivonen> not that it matters anymore
  263. # [09:35] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  264. # [09:36] <Lachy> oh, wow. Yeah, my original test was flawed.
  265. # [09:36] <Lachy> that's crazy
  266. # [09:41] <othermaciej> probably Lou Montulli
  267. # [09:41] * Joins: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  268. # [09:41] <othermaciej> or at least, I mentally blame him for anything that is terrible about browsers
  269. # [09:41] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-95-60.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  270. # [09:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: which browser is the "script-created parser" stuff and document.open() modeled on?
  271. # [09:47] <Hixie> a composite sketch of the various browsers
  272. # [09:47] <hsivonen> hmmkay.
  273. # [09:47] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you could have used window.name to store state across form submission in v.nu
  274. # [09:48] <hsivonen> zcorpan: interesting. thanks
  275. # [09:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: I *think* Gecko doesn't have the concept of a script-created parser
  276. # [09:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: in the sense that you could find out later if a parser was script-created
  277. # [09:48] <hsivonen> I guess I should add that!
  278. # [09:49] <Hixie> you can tell without a separate flag
  279. # [09:49] <Hixie> by checking to see if the insertion mode is defined or not
  280. # [09:49] <Hixie> iirc
  281. # [09:50] <zcorpan> hsivonen: they expect reparsing but only break in minor ways
  282. # [09:50] <Hixie> whether it's undefined or whether the nesting level is non-zero, maybe
  283. # [09:50] <Hixie> i forget
  284. # [09:51] <Hixie> oh maybe also the encoding confidence being irrelevant is another way of telling if it's script-created or not
  285. # [09:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: my test for insertion point defined is a bit of a hack
  286. # [09:51] <Hixie> basically the only thing "script-created parser" matters for is whether d.o and d.c do anything
  287. # [09:51] * Joins: malware (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  288. # [09:51] <zcorpan> hmm. i now have 2046 unread emails :(
  289. # [09:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm a bit nervous about trusting that certain invariants hold so that I don't need a dedicated flag
  290. # [09:52] <Hixie> yeah
  291. # [09:52] * zcorpan considers reading the spam and deleting everything else
  292. # [09:52] <jgraham> zcorpan: How did the number increase? Did you unread some mail?
  293. # [09:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: that's why i have a separate flag in the spec :-)
  294. # [09:52] * Quits: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-176-85.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  295. # [09:52] <zcorpan> jgraham: opera didn't download it all at first
  296. # [09:57] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  300. # [10:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: editorial: "not undefined" is not quite nice. "defined" is nicer
  301. # [10:14] <Hixie> defined means something different than not undefined in this context, sadly
  302. # [10:14] <Hixie> or can be interpreted differently, shall we say
  303. # [10:14] <hsivonen> oh
  304. # [10:15] * hsivonen hopes !mParser->IsInsertionPointDefined(key) does the right thing nonetheless
  305. # [10:17] <Hixie> well the point is that in the context of the spec, the insertion mode is always defined, it's just sometimes defined to have the value "undefined"
  306. # [10:18] <Hixie> if you see what i mean
  307. # [10:18] <hsivonen> ok
  308. # [10:19] <hsivonen> fwiw, in order to avoid refactoring the Gecko script execution code, my IsInsertionPointDefined() is quite detached from the spec
  309. # [10:20] <hsivonen> I hope it is black-box equivalent, though
  310. # [10:20] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-99b97fa933e7d443)
  311. # [10:20] <hsivonen> in particular, I think it's quite easy to break it accidentally when implementing async scripts
  312. # [10:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you happen to have a test suite for document.open() and insertion point?
  313. # [10:23] <Hixie> you might find some stuff on hixie.ch either under tests/adhoc/html/parsing or adhoc/dom/level0/ or something
  314. # [10:23] <Hixie> dunno how correct it is though
  315. # [10:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok. thanks
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  318. # [10:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: the vague mention of form submission encoding in the non-UTF-8 case seems good enough for me
  319. # [10:26] <Hixie> k
  320. # [10:28] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  321. # [10:43] <hsivonen> http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/write/004.html doesn't have a pass condition, right?
  322. # [10:43] <hsivonen> ah. demos
  323. # [10:43] * hsivonen *always* misses the text at the bottom of the directory listing
  324. # [10:45] <Hixie> yeah it's not very clear. and i don't always mark up which are demos anyway.
  325. # [10:46] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-172-189.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
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  327. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> sayrer: you there?
  328. # [10:51] <hsivonen> http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/write/005.html just says Kittens! and doesn't stop loading
  329. # [10:53] <hsivonen> oh noes. the failure to load is caused by my upcoming patch. :-(
  330. # [10:56] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@pat.se.opera.com)
  331. # [11:02] * Joins: boblet (n=boblet@124x33x38x101.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  332. # [11:04] <Hixie> is it supposed to lead?
  333. # [11:04] <Hixie> load
  334. # [11:04] <Hixie> (i didn't check the test)
  335. # [11:05] <olliej> hsivonen: i like the idea of a kittens only version myself
  336. # [11:05] <olliej> Hixie: maybe kittens and puppies rather than budgies?
  337. # [11:05] <boblet> hey all
  338. # [11:05] * olliej doesn't particularly like budgies
  339. # [11:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: it finishes loading in Gecko without my upcoming patch and in Safari and in Opera
  340. # [11:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: I didn't test IE yet
  341. # [11:07] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  342. # [11:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: so I assume it should finish loading!
  343. # [11:07] <Hixie> these tests are funny, the server is explicitly inserting pauses
  344. # [11:08] <Hixie> i'm not really sure why that test should finish loading
  345. # [11:08] <Hixie> i mean... there's no EOF as far as I can tell
  346. # [11:09] <olliej> Hixie: timeout perhaps?
  347. # [11:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: ooh! maybe my flush timer just sucks
  348. # [11:09] <Hixie> what if it was running in another frame and some other script poked more text into it?
  349. # [11:09] <Hixie> long after the timeout fired?
  350. # [11:09] <Hixie> i dunno
  351. # [11:09] <Hixie> these tests give me headaches
  352. # [11:10] <hsivonen> me too. at least if I defer lunch due to them any longer
  353. # [11:15] <hsivonen> on a completely different note, I think Theora.org should have a page that authors can link to in order to clue their users in on how to get a Theora-capable browsing setup
  354. # [11:15] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-99b97fa933e7d443) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  355. # [11:15] <hsivonen> the page should be vendor-independent
  356. # [11:16] <hsivonen> currently pointing to Firefox 3.5 and XiphQT for Safari
  357. # [11:16] <hsivonen> and over time adding Opera 10.next and Chrome 3 as those ship
  358. # [11:17] <hsivonen> (I think an association that I'm a member of might find such a page useful, since simply promoting one vendor wouldn't look right for the association)
  359. # [11:17] <boblet> A question regarding the header element; the content model is flow but no header or footer element descendants. That means it could contain a section, but the contained section couldn’t contain a header, right?
  360. # [11:17] <Hixie> right
  361. # [11:17] <boblet> So that means a complex page header (eg containing sections with headers) will need to be a section huh
  362. # [11:18] <Hixie> the nested section could contain <h1>s and <hgroup>s and such like
  363. # [11:18] <Hixie> but it couldn't contain its own <header>
  364. # [11:18] <Hixie> if you have an example of when that might make sense, though, let us know
  365. # [11:18] <Hixie> the idea of restricting it was we couldn't find any case where it made sense, and we found lots of cases where it didn't and we wanted to discourage people misusing it for those cases
  366. # [11:19] <boblet> hmm, ok. It does make sense, I just wanted to check I was understanding it
  367. # [11:20] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@gatea.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  368. # [11:26] <Hixie> i wonder if what i specced about the origin of <img> elements in the case of redirects, data:, javascript:, etc, is true
  369. # [11:27] <Hixie> is the origin of <img> elements only relevant for <canvas>?
  370. # [11:27] <Hixie> or do we use it for anything else?
  371. # [11:30] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-fc0fd362a1f0c310)
  372. # [11:39] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-fc0fd362a1f0c310) ("Leaving")
  373. # [11:46] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-172-189.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  379. # [12:05] <boblet> later all
  380. # [12:05] * Quits: boblet (n=boblet@124x33x38x101.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) ("thxbye")
  381. # [12:07] <hsivonen> wow. in IE8, 005.html fails and gives an MS KB reference
  382. # [12:07] <hsivonen> KB297917
  383. # [12:08] <hsivonen> why don't I get to bail out and point to a KB article on hard stuff?
  384. # [12:09] <Hixie> did it give a url? i can't find that kb on the web
  385. # [12:09] <hsivonen> It didn't
  386. # [12:09] <hsivonen> Google found me a page in Polish
  387. # [12:09] <Hixie> yeah me too
  388. # [12:10] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s5590d015.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  389. # [12:10] <hsivonen> Oops. my typo
  390. # [12:10] <hsivonen> KB927917
  391. # [12:11] <Hixie> it says it doesn't occur in IE8
  392. # [12:11] <hsivonen> Well, I got the number from IE8
  393. # [12:12] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Remote closed the connection)
  394. # [12:12] <Hixie> was it in IE7 mode?
  395. # [12:12] <Hixie> it explicitly says this was an IE7 bug fixed in IE8
  396. # [12:12] <hsivonen> it says <!DOCTYPE HTML>
  397. # [12:12] <Hixie> on that page
  398. # [12:12] <zcorpan> i wonder when js libraries will implement sessionStorage with fallback to window.name
  399. # [12:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: Browser Mode: IE8 Document Mode: IE8 Standards
  400. # [12:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: says IE8
  401. # [12:13] <Hixie> weird
  402. # [12:13] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  403. # [12:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: wouldn't be the first time MSDN isn't quite precise about IE behavior
  404. # [12:14] <Hixie> this is beyond "not quite precise"
  405. # [12:21] <zcorpan> + <p>Authors should not specify a <code
  406. # [12:21] <zcorpan> + title="attr-img-border">border</code> attribute on an
  407. # [12:21] <zcorpan> + <code>img</code> element if its value is the string "<code
  408. # [12:21] <zcorpan> + title="">0</code>".
  409. # [12:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: sounds like border="1" is fine
  410. # [12:21] <Hixie> i've fixed that already
  411. # [12:21] <zcorpan> oh
  412. # [12:21] <zcorpan> ok
  413. # [12:21] <Hixie> :-)
  414. # [12:21] <Hixie> i realised the same thing later when i was editing something else
  415. # [12:21] <Hixie> i was like, wait, wtf am i saying here
  416. # [12:22] <Hixie> it now reads:
  417. # [12:22] <Hixie> Authors should not specify a border attribute on an img element. If the attribute is present, its value must be the string "0". CSS should be used instead.
  418. # [12:23] <hsivonen> this is interesting: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-July/020961.html
  419. # [12:23] <hsivonen> the bit about GStreamer
  420. # [12:27] <othermaciej> I wonder if they are going to end up plugging into system media frameworks + ensuring availability of an Ogg codec set
  421. # [12:27] <Lachy> hsivonen, yeah, I was surprised he mentioned that publicly. We've known about it internally for a while.
  422. # [12:27] * Quits: poe (n=poe@unaffiliated/xerox)
  423. # [12:28] <othermaciej> the part that had me curious was "when using GStreamer" which implies it is used sometimes but not always
  424. # [12:28] <othermaciej> Lachy is probably not free to comment on the matter (but if you are, feel free to enwisen us)
  425. # [12:29] <hsivonen> othermaciej: could be for non-desktop Linux-based deployments
  426. # [12:30] <hsivonen> oh, this is just great. I get different results inside and outside gdb
  427. # [12:30] <hsivonen> or I'm doing something wrong
  428. # [12:31] <hsivonen> No, I'm just confused
  429. # [12:32] <hsivonen> I'm getting different results loading 005.html by navigating to it and loading it by session restore
  430. # [12:35] <Lachy> othermaciej, I haven't been informed about what exactly we can say about this, so I probably shouldn't reveal any more
  431. # [12:35] * Joins: poe (n=poe@151.57.5.250)
  432. # [12:38] * Joins: foolip (n=Philip@pat.se.opera.com)
  433. # [12:39] <foolip> it's been publically known that we use GStreamer internally since OVC
  434. # [12:40] <Hixie> hey, it's philipj
  435. # [12:40] <Hixie> foolip: thanks for all your feedback on the spec so far, it's been great
  436. # [12:40] <foolip> but certainly won't always, on embedded devices as such
  437. # [12:41] <foolip> Hixie, and thank you for editing it :)
  438. # [12:41] <hsivonen> foolip: what about Windows and Mac?
  439. # [12:42] <foolip> well... what specifically about them?
  440. # [12:43] <foolip> how do we guarantee support for our "baseline"?
  441. # [12:43] <hsivonen> foolip: presumably Windows and Mac don't use GStreamer, so what will they use?
  442. # [12:44] <foolip> we'll bundle the decoders we need
  443. # [12:44] <foolip> if that's DirectShow decoders, internal decoders or something else I'm quite sure I shouldn't say yet
  444. # [12:44] <hsivonen> foolip: I see
  445. # [12:45] <foolip> as I mentioned at OVC we've tried doing DirectShow, it kind of works, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone
  446. # [12:47] <foolip> the primary reason to use GStreamer on UNIX is to not have to handle the 10^10 different audio output API:s, not because it can decode theora/vorbis
  447. # [12:49] <foolip> anyway, rest assured that we won't simply use the platform framework in all instances, that way it's impossible (very hard) to get consistent behavior of even the simplest stuff
  448. # [12:57] * Joins: drostie (n=hopkins@wlan-145-94-169-104.wlan.tudelft.nl)
  449. # [13:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: in 005.html, the first document.write should fire when insertion point is not defined, because the act of inserting a script-created script element with src causes the script to run only when src has loaded, right?
  450. # [13:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: so the script shouldn't be running at the appendChild stage anyway?
  451. # [13:04] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-05d42da4b2d4844d) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  452. # [13:04] <hsivonen> hmm. I think my insertion point hack might not be handling all event loop interleavings right
  453. # [13:04] <hsivonen> aaargh
  454. # [13:05] <hsivonen> basically, it seems that I get the wrong results when I think the next script that going to be run from the event loop is one whose load is parser-requested, but a script-inserted script gets run from the event loop
  455. # [13:06] * Joins: drostie_ (n=hopkins@wlan-145-94-171-232.wlan.tudelft.nl)
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  457. # [13:06] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-ae0ae0115cb2f3e0)
  458. # [13:06] <hsivonen> I wonder if it's even possible to get the insertion point stuff right without refactoring how Gecko loads an runs external scripts
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  462. # [13:13] <hsivonen> if it happens that the code I now have is correct per spec, the behavior I get doesn't match any shipped browser
  463. # [13:14] <hsivonen> I'm not sure what I've done exactly
  464. # [13:15] <hsivonen> I get confused by which document JS 'document' points to after document.open()
  465. # [13:16] <hsivonen> specifically, if a script was created by parser 1, then an implied document.open() happened that blew the parser away and then the parser-created script does document.write() I'm not sure if I got insertion points right
  466. # [13:16] * zcorpan agrees with roc about (new Audio()).autobuffer
  467. # [13:17] * Joins: drostie_ (n=hopkins@wlan-145-94-171-232.wlan.tudelft.nl)
  468. # [13:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: if the parser that created a script was aborted by document.open() and then the script does document.write(), where should it write?
  469. # [13:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: into the new script-created parser whose insertion point is always defined?
  470. # [13:17] * Quits: drostie (n=hopkins@wlan-145-94-169-104.wlan.tudelft.nl) (Nick collision from services.)
  471. # [13:18] * drostie_ is now known as drostie
  472. # [13:18] <Hixie> i want to say yes
  473. # [13:18] <Hixie> but i'm too tired to stand by that yes with the full force of my convictions
  474. # [13:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: I see
  475. # [13:18] <hsivonen> I think I'm going to hack on the validator for the rest of the day and sleep on document.write
  476. # [13:19] <hsivonen> it would be awesome to have expected results for 005.html
  477. # [13:19] <Hixie> i'm not 100% sure on what your earlier question means, but it will probably make more sense when i awake in about 10 hours
  478. # [13:19] <Hixie> send me an e-mail asking me to update the tests
  479. # [13:19] <Hixie> and i'll try to do it
  480. # [13:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: OK
  481. # [13:21] * hsivonen wonders if Gecko distinguishes between the HTML5 pending external script concept and script-created external scripts spinning the event loop while waiting for the network to do its thing
  482. # [13:24] <zcorpan> Hixie: does prince support css transforms?
  483. # [13:24] <Hixie> no idea
  484. # [13:24] <Hixie> howcome would know
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  486. # [13:29] <Hixie> ok now i must sleep
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  510. # [15:44] <zcorpan> ooooh
  511. # [15:44] * zcorpan reads the news about the xhtml2 wg
  512. # [15:45] <takkaria> you did have a lot of mail ^_^
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  514. # [15:57] <zcorpan> i wonder why http://www.w3.org/2009/06/xhtml-faq.html doesn't mention microdata or ?style=author
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  516. # [16:03] <zcorpan> Hixie: the spec should use <hgroup>
  517. # [16:03] <Lachy> zcorpan, is today the first time you heard about the XHTML2 being discontinued?
  518. # [16:04] <zcorpan> Lachy: yeah, i've been on vacation
  519. # [16:04] <Lachy> ok
  520. # [16:05] <jgraham> takkaria: So when are you going to become the HTML5 test czar?
  521. # [16:05] * Lachy wonders if you missed any other big news for the past few weeks
  522. # [16:05] <zcorpan> http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/process.py?url=http%3A%2F%2Fw3.org - now with alt="" support!
  523. # [16:06] <zcorpan> Lachy: likely, i still have 1700 unread emails
  524. # [16:06] <jgraham> zcorpan: We came surprisngly close to something that may yet lead to consensus on the @summary issue
  525. # [16:07] <Lachy> jgraham, we did?!
  526. # [16:07] <gsnedders> (Anolis does different stuff with img in the TOC)
  527. # [16:07] <takkaria> jgraham: it's hard to say. I might get round to looking at it around the end of August, I suppose
  528. # [16:08] <Lachy> zcorpan, yeah, but I was also thinking about major world news stuff too. Though I'm going to assume you haven't been completely cut off from civilisation.
  529. # [16:09] <takkaria> the world news can be summed up mostly as "the world is still going to shit, some good things happened too"
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  531. # [16:10] <jgraham> Lachy: The use of should not rather than an implied must not and specific advice about how to do better seemed to bring us closer to agreement than we have been at any point so far, although I may be misreading the situation
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  533. # [16:11] <Lachy> jgraham, I thought the change that made summary conforming but obsolete would make people happy, but there are still a lot of people sustaining their objections
  534. # [16:11] <Lachy> (even though that particular change made me unhappy, I can live with it if I have to)
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  536. # [16:14] <Lachy> takkaria, I don't remember anything good happening recently
  537. # [16:16] <takkaria> someone did a cool bike stunt in London the other night
  538. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> Lachy: good things happening recently: dhyatt starting working on a datagrid implementation for Webkit, Chrome team started on Web Sockets implementation, and there's also a Web Sockets patch for Mozilla that's received some review
  539. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> oh, and Mozilla has hashchange support now too
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  541. # [16:19] <Lachy> takkaria, got a link to a video?
  542. # [16:19] <Lachy> MikeSmith, cool. I didn't know that.
  543. # [16:20] <takkaria> Lachy: Lachy http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8147714.stm
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  545. # [16:22] <Lachy> wow
  546. # [16:23] <gsnedders> takkaria: Got a link that doesn't need Flashy?
  547. # [16:24] <gsnedders> *Flash
  548. # [16:24] <takkaria> no
  549. # [16:26] <Lachy> from the more bad news desk http://science.slashdot.org/story/09/07/13/1330220/NASA-Plans-to-De-Orbit-ISS-in-2016?from=rss
  550. # [16:27] <jgraham> Lachy: That hardly counts as bad news. ISS has been a total disaster
  551. # [16:28] * gsnedders wonders when it's meant to be completed
  552. # [16:28] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well it was /meant/ to be completed years ago
  553. # [16:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: I mean the current meaning. :P
  554. # [16:29] <takkaria> jgraham: I was actually thinking about the html5 testsuite the other day. I guess it would be useful to have it in place by October for LC, and I should have time and energy before then to sort it out
  555. # [16:29] <Lachy> jgraham, in what way?
  556. # [16:29] <takkaria> jgraham: someone else can always do it, though. :)
  557. # [16:31] <jgraham> Lachy: It has taken forever, cost far more money than it was supposed to and done no useful science (whilst taking money that could otherwise be used for science projects)
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  567. # [16:32] <zcorpan> Lachy: i guess i was more exposed to world news during my vacation compared to when i work
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  569. # [16:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: s/science projects/useful science projects/ I assume you mean as it has done some, just not useful ones.
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  574. # [16:34] <jgraham> I think it has done some stuff like "lets do some experiments designed by schoolkids about growing crystals in space"
  575. # [16:34] <jgraham> It may even have done the odd actually valuable thing. But a lot of stuff that was designed to work with the ISS had to be abandoned or reworked as independant missions
  576. # [16:35] <jgraham> So per unit currency it has been an epic failure for science
  577. # [16:35] <Lachy> jgraham, that depends if you consider experiments like this to be useful or not. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaHLwla2WiI In any case, it's pretty cool;
  578. # [16:36] <gsnedders> Lachy: That hardly needs a space station to do, just something in freefall
  579. # [16:36] <gsnedders> A plane in freefall would work as a container for that
  580. # [16:37] <jgraham> I'm not even convinced that it has taught us anything useful about going into space aprt from maybe "don't do it like this"
  581. # [16:37] <Philip`> It has ushered in an era of International cooperation!
  582. # [16:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: But Mongolia isn't involved!
  583. # [16:38] <Lachy> gsnedders, the Zero G company that does flights like that only last about 30 seconds each time, which isn't much for doing experiments.
  584. # [16:38] <gsnedders> Lachy: It depends what experiment you want to do :)
  585. # [16:38] <Phae> those Zero G experiences are expensive. i was looking them up just the other day.
  586. # [16:39] <Lachy> Phae, how much are they?
  587. # [16:39] <jgraham> To the extent that that counts as a science experiment it could be done on the shuttle or something
  588. # [16:40] <Phae> well, once you've got there... http://www.elite-expeditions.co.uk/zgbook.htm
  589. # [16:40] <Philip`> Phae: Probably cheaper than the ISS, though :-)
  590. # [16:40] <Phae> sure
  591. # [16:42] <Lachy> wow, they even charge $195 for the non-flyer package. https://www.gozerog.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=reservations.welcome
  592. # [16:42] <gsnedders> Phae: When NASA owns both such things and the shuttle, I'm sure they'd say it was cheaper in terms of operation costs :)
  593. # [16:42] <Phae> aye
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  595. # [16:43] <Phae> it would be ace, but it's a pretty expensive rollercoaster like experience, i imagine :)
  596. # [16:43] <gsnedders> Phae: I doubt rollercoasters let you fall vertically without being attached to anything at 9.81 m/s :)
  597. # [16:44] <Lachy> I wonder why they cost so much. They're just flying a modified Boeing 727, and surely they aren't that costly to operate
  598. # [16:44] <Phae> yeah, but for such a short period of time
  599. # [16:44] <Phae> by the time you got the hang of it, you'd be onthe floor again
  600. # [16:44] <gsnedders> Lachy: Probably insurance, as flying vertically down is somewhat dangerous. Then you have supply/demand.
  601. # [16:45] <Phae> and there's not a competitive enough number of operators, probably
  602. # [16:45] <Lachy> I think they're the only commercial operators of such flights
  603. # [16:45] <Phae> well, there you go
  604. # [16:45] <jgraham> Lachy: They might well be quite costly to operate given the number of passengers, but it is more about market economics
  605. # [16:45] <jgraham> I was surprised at how cheap they are
  606. # [16:46] <Lachy> jgraham, cheap?!
  607. # [16:46] <gsnedders> Likewise
  608. # [16:46] <jgraham> (for the record ISS cost something like 100 billion euros over its lifetime)
  609. # [16:46] <gsnedders> Lachy: They could quite easily charge 5 times what they do. You get a whole 727 between around 10–15 people or so I guess
  610. # [16:47] <gsnedders> Lachy: And provided they are the only supplier, there is a fair amount of demand, so I expect they could charge more.
  611. # [16:48] <Phae> but still, would you spend 2500 to be weightless for 30 seconds, 15 times?
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  613. # [16:48] <Phae> that's what makes it expensive or not
  614. # [16:49] <jgraham> If I liked that sort of thing and had the cash, sure
  615. # [16:49] <jgraham> It's aimed at people with substantial disposable income
  616. # [16:49] <jgraham> not at people who go to butlins
  617. # [16:49] <gsnedders> Phae: I don't particularly have much interest in it.
  618. # [16:49] <Phae> yeah, so to those people it's cheap
  619. # [16:50] <Phae> if you think you ened to have substantial disposable income to make it worthwhile, ti's not cheap :P
  620. # [16:50] <Phae> it's*
  621. # [16:50] <Phae> need* ugh.
  622. # [16:50] <takkaria> it sounds like one of those things that if you had a lot of money just lying around, you might as well do, really
  623. # [16:50] <Phae> sure
  624. # [16:50] <Phae> i would if i did
  625. # [16:50] <Lachy> jgraham, what is "butlins"?
  626. # [16:50] <Phae> haha
  627. # [16:50] * gsnedders looks behind his sofa
  628. # [16:51] <Phae> butlins is like, cheesy family vacation place. think cold, bored, brits in seaside resorts
  629. # [16:51] <takkaria> also used for festivals sometimes
  630. # [16:52] <gsnedders> Mainly used by those who cannot afford to go abroad, as far as I can tell.
  631. # [16:53] <jgraham> http://www.butlins.com/
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  684. # [19:56] <Philip`> http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2009/07/13/html5rdfa/ (plus page 2)
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  686. # [19:59] <Philip`> Oh, it was already posted to the list
  687. # [20:00] <Lachy> from a quick glance, it seems they're ignoring all the concerns over namespaces, prefixes, CURIEs, etc. Oh well.
  688. # [20:01] <Lachy> although, they have notes about it. So maybe they will do something about it
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  695. # [20:16] <hober> could someone with wiki admin privleges delete http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Hafez
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  697. # [20:17] <Lachy> ok
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  699. # [20:20] <Lachy> done
  700. # [20:20] <Lachy> hober, do you have a wiki account?
  701. # [20:20] <Lachy> I can give you admit privilages if you like
  702. # [20:20] <Lachy> *admin
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  706. # [20:33] <hober> I have an account, I'm User:EdwardOConnor
  707. # [20:33] <hober> sure, thanks
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  730. # [21:46] <jgraham> gsnedders: I just pushed something to html5lib that might make the not putting of html elements in a namespace work
  731. # [21:46] <jgraham> Needs tests though
  732. # [21:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well seeming I'll probably soon move on to making Anolis work with the namespaces (so it works with XHTML too), I'm not entirely sure how relevant it is :)
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  742. # [22:21] <gmiernicki> oi... anyone know if localStorage is accessible via web workers?
  743. # [22:22] <gmiernicki> ive been reading through the forum threads, and got quite confused as most discussions pertain the the browser implementations
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  747. # [22:39] <jgraham> gsnedders: There's no pleasing some people
  748. # [22:39] <gsnedders> jgraham: No, there isn't.
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  760. # [23:24] <gmiernicki> there's no helping people it seems either, sometimes
  761. # [23:24] <gmiernicki> back to google i suppose...
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  767. # [23:33] <Spark^> I need to use a more recent version of html5lib for python than 0.11 as I'm getting infinite recursion problems. Can anyone suggest what reasonably stable version I should check out as the trunk (or the mercurial equivalent term) gives me other errors.
  768. # [23:35] <gsnedders> Spark^: Before jgraham started merging stuff around a month ago.
  769. # [23:36] <gsnedders> Spark^: 759c5bd902 is what I use in places
  770. # [23:38] <Spark^> nothing like me dropping in at the deep end! i like the visualisation of branches in google code, but haven't a clue how i check out a particular revision!
  771. # [23:40] <Spark^> will hg update 759c5bd902
  772. # [23:40] <Spark^> do it?
  773. # [23:41] <Philip`> You probably want "-r 759etc"
  774. # [23:41] <Philip`> but I don't know if you want "update" or not
  775. # [23:43] <Spark^> hmmm, i guess 'invalid syntax' on "byte-compiling build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/html5lib/treewalkers/_base.py to _base.pyc isn't good" :(
  776. # [23:44] <gsnedders> Philip`: update or up
  777. # [23:44] <gsnedders> Spark^: What version of Python?
  778. # [23:44] <Spark^> 2.5
  779. # [23:44] <gsnedders> Can I shrug my shoulders and go to bed?
  780. # [23:45] <Spark^> i should do the same. you've got me a lot further on, so thanks for your help.
  781. # [23:46] <gsnedders> That rev worked today for me
  782. # [23:46] <Spark^> if i could drive google's thingy to show me changes to that file i'd maybe be able to select a revision close by
  783. # [23:46] <Spark^> probably something stupid i'm doing
  784. # [23:46] <Spark^> like, i'm not 100% sure that update or pull worked
  785. # [23:46] <gsnedders> You'll know if it failed.
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  787. # [23:48] <jgraham> Spark^: try latest tip
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  789. # [23:49] * jgraham has to go now
  790. # [23:59] <Spark^> i take it tip == my idea of head
  791. # [23:59] <Spark^> get errors with that
  792. # [23:59] <Spark^> byte-compiling build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/html5lib/treewalkers/_base.py to _base.pyc
  793. # [23:59] <Spark^> File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/html5lib/treewalkers/_base.py", line 40
  794. # [23:59] <Spark^> "data": []}
  795. # [23:59] <Spark^> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
  796. # Session Close: Tue Jul 14 00:00:00 2009

The end :)