/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-07-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jul 14 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Spark^> then when i run my code i get
  4. # [00:00] <Spark^> File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/html5lib/html5parser.py", line 468, in processDoctype
  5. # [00:00] <Spark^> TypeError: insertDoctype() takes exactly 4 arguments (2 given)
  6. # [00:05] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
  7. # [00:15] <Lachy> wow, I just read through that RDFa in HTML draft, and there are so many issues with it
  8. # [00:17] <Lachy> from the last paragraph: "Since CURIE prefix mappings have been specified using xmlns:, and since HTML attribute names are case-insensitive, CURIE prefix names declared using the xmlns:attribute-name pattern xmlns:<PREFIX>="<URI>" should be specified using only lower-case characters. For example, the text "xmlns:" and the text in "<PREFIX>" should be lower-case only. This is to ensure that prefix mappings are interpreted in the same way between HTML (case
  9. # [00:17] <Lachy> -insensitive attribute names) and XHTML (case-sensitive attribute names) document types."
  10. # [00:19] <Lachy> that seems to indicate that there are some unspecified problems when using uppercase, but says nothing about how to handle it. Though, presumably, it doesn't really matter, since the parser lowercases them anyway, and it's only a problem if you are making a polyglot document
  11. # [00:20] <Lachy> it's not really clear if that's what it means though
  12. # [00:22] <Lachy> "If an author is unsure of the final encapsulating DOCTYPE for their markup..." -- what the?
  13. # [00:25] * Hixie tries to understand what happened to the "URLs" stuff in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-duerst-iri-bis
  14. # [00:25] <Hixie> did larry just make invalid URIs conforming?
  15. # [00:25] <Hixie> i'm confused
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  17. # [00:28] <Hixie> man in that algorithm has gotten seriously corrupted since it was in html5
  18. # [00:28] <Hixie> and there are entire sections missing now
  19. # [00:28] <Hixie> sigh
  20. # [00:28] * Hixie adds it to his list of things to e-mail about
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  22. # [00:31] <Lachy> that mail from Larry doesn't have a link to the draft. Where can I find it?
  23. # [00:32] <Hixie> i just posted it
  24. # [00:32] <Hixie> :-)
  25. # [00:33] <Lachy> oh. I didn't read that far back, that's a whole 8 messages back
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  41. # [01:09] <ap> Hixie: any comment on https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26925 ? I'm going to fix it soon, if it's ok spec-wise
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  48. # [01:23] <Hixie> ap: commented. btw can you fix http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/offline/004.html also?
  49. # [01:25] <ap> Hixie: what's the problem with that one? I don't see a distinctive FAIL in Safari 4.0.1 on Mac
  50. # [01:25] <ap> Hixie: btw, the question was not about parsing manifests
  51. # [01:25] <Hixie> if you open it three time, it'll fail in one of the windows
  52. # [01:25] <ap> Hixie: e.g. you go to http://server/app.html#foo, and then to http://server/app.html#bar
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  54. # [01:26] <Hixie> oh
  55. # [01:26] <Hixie> huh
  56. # [01:26] <ap> Hixie: alternatively, you can have manifest#foo in manifest attribute
  57. # [01:26] <Hixie> yeah that's a bug, drop an e-mail? it can just be a link to the bug
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  61. # [01:28] <StationsPatient> aloha, is there a simple way to replace html entities with html5lib in python?
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  88. # [02:53] <Hixie> i swear half the people in the acknowledgements are there because they pointed out that i'd misspelt occurred.
  89. # [02:53] <Hixie> how embarassing
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  91. # [03:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: you should color-code the acknowledgements and do the tag-cloud thing with names in various point sizes
  92. # [03:02] <MikeSmith> or even different fonts
  93. # [03:02] <MikeSmith> comic sans, etc.
  94. # [03:02] <Hixie> hah
  95. # [03:05] <nessy> lol
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  100. # [03:19] <MikeSmith> anybody know if gecko has a Server-Sent Events implementation?
  101. # [03:21] * MikeSmith finds https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338583
  102. # [03:21] <Hixie> heycam: yt?
  103. # [03:21] <heycam> Hixie, yep
  104. # [03:21] <Hixie> heycam: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-unsigned-long
  105. # [03:21] <Hixie> heycam: do you know of any way to prove that implementations are actually using ToUint32() here?
  106. # [03:21] <Hixie> rather than ToInt32() followed by clamping?
  107. # [03:22] * MikeSmith notices Wellington Fernando de Macedo is same developer who's working on the WebSocket implementation
  108. # [03:22] <heycam> clamping how
  109. # [03:22] <Hixie> setting any value < 0 to 0 or something
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  111. # [03:22] <Hixie> i'm trying to work out which attributes are _really_ long and which are _really_ unsigned long
  112. # [03:23] <heycam> apart from testing each one individually to see what happens when you assign or call with a negative number...
  113. # [03:24] <heycam> i guess for some it's not going to be possible to tell
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  115. # [03:26] <Hixie> so, if they really do use ToUint32(), and i set them to -1, their value should be some non-zero positive number right?
  116. # [03:26] <heycam> right
  117. # [03:26] <heycam> 2**32 - 1 i think
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  119. # [03:27] <heycam> hard ones to test would be e.g. HTMLOptionsCollection.length
  120. # [03:27] <heycam> you're likely to run in to memory limits i'd guess
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  122. # [03:30] <Hixie> holy crap, found one -- safari <input size> really works like that
  123. # [03:30] * Hixie tries IE
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  126. # [03:34] <Hixie> interesting, IE throws an exception for numbers < 0
  127. # [03:34] <Hixie> or ignores it
  128. # [03:35] <Hixie> sorry, clamps, not ignores
  129. # [03:35] <Hixie> heycam: how would you feel about changing that algorithm to use ToInt32() and then convert numbers less than 0 to 0 instead of using TUint32?
  130. # [03:36] <heycam> if you can show that that's the common behaviour, sure
  131. # [03:36] <heycam> i think i wrote it that way for consistency with how unsigned integers are handled by ES built in functions, can't remember if i did any/much testing
  132. # [03:40] <Hixie> k
  133. # [03:40] <Hixie> will write tests
  134. # [03:44] <heycam> great
  135. # [03:47] <othermaciej> Hixie, heycam: what we do in many places is convert ToInteger() (to get an integral floating point number) and then filter out NaN and out of range values
  136. # [03:49] <heycam> it would be nice if the conversion behaviour were consistent across all uses of unsigned long / unsigned short
  137. # [03:49] <heycam> othermaciej, do you know if different conversion behaviours for different attributes/operations is needed for compatibility?
  138. # [03:49] <othermaciej> heycam: no idea, we never thoroughly researched this
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  140. # [03:53] <othermaciej> I guess I'm wrong, it looks like we use toInt32 for everything, which seems wrong to me
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  144. # [03:55] <heycam> so infinity/nans get treated as 0
  145. # [03:55] <heycam> ?
  146. # [04:00] <Hixie> heycam: http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/webidl/attributes/001.html
  147. # [04:03] <heycam> interesting
  148. # [04:03] <heycam> so did you find any impls that do ToUint32?
  149. # [04:03] <Hixie> webkit for <input size>
  150. # [04:03] <Hixie> but that's it
  151. # [04:04] <Hixie> however, they all do random other things
  152. # [04:04] <Hixie> there's no consistency that i've found
  153. # [04:04] <heycam> i wonder what it's like for methods that take unsigned longs
  154. # [04:04] <heycam> there might be more consistency there
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  156. # [04:05] <Hixie> well so it turns out that html5 is all self-contradictory about 'long' attributes
  157. # [04:05] <Hixie> which is why i'm worried about those
  158. # [04:05] <Hixie> e.g. it says various contradictory things about what reflects what
  159. # [04:06] <heycam> in terms of whether the reflected properties should clamp or whatever?
  160. # [04:06] <Hixie> i think i may convert everything to signed longs
  161. # [04:06] <Hixie> yeah
  162. # [04:06] <Hixie> it also contradicts itself on how to parse some of the attributes
  163. # [04:07] <heycam> at least if they're signed longs then you can define the conversion for negative values
  164. # [04:07] <heycam> (if you don't care about values >= 2**31)
  165. # [04:08] <Hixie> yeah
  166. # [04:09] <heycam> otoh unsigned longs seem "nicer" in some way
  167. # [04:09] <heycam> in that it would better describe the set of allowed values
  168. # [04:09] <Hixie> yeah
  169. # [04:10] <heycam> if it's safe to make all of these convert in the same way, then i'd rather they be unsigned long and to define the conversion in webidl to be whatever way is decided
  170. # [04:10] <Hixie> that is definitely ok by me
  171. # [04:10] <heycam> the "if it's safe" i don't know about. if they're all doing random other things...
  172. # [04:11] <heycam> i think something other than ToUint32 would be good
  173. # [04:11] <heycam> since it's not exactly intuitive
  174. # [04:11] <Hixie> well right now IE either throws or clamps to zero
  175. # [04:11] <Hixie> i vote for "clamps to zero"
  176. # [04:11] <heycam> and how about for NaN, Infinity, non-Numbers?
  177. # [04:12] <heycam> and non-integer numbers
  178. # [04:12] <Hixie> ToInt32() then clamp to zero
  179. # [04:12] <Hixie> they do all do TInt32() first when they don't throw
  180. # [04:13] <heycam> ok. so we'll never care about values >= 2**31?
  181. # [04:13] <Hixie> not for these i don't think
  182. # [04:13] <Hixie> i haven't tested if they handle big values
  183. # [04:14] <Hixie> but we can always do a TInt64 then clamp on both ends if necessary
  184. # [04:14] <Hixie> ToInt64
  185. # [04:14] <heycam> testing for big values would be good
  186. # [04:14] <heycam> if it doesn't break the test
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  191. # [04:25] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/webidl/attributes/002.html
  192. # [04:25] <Hixie> results are all over the place
  193. # [04:26] <heycam> there's a "defaults to zero" that should be "defaults to one" in the script
  194. # [04:27] <heycam> if they're all over the place, i would like "supports big numbers" to be the one we choose
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  196. # [04:28] <Hixie> fine by me
  197. # [04:30] <othermaciej> what does "supports big numbers" mean?
  198. # [04:30] <othermaciej> bigger than 32-bit?
  199. # [04:30] <heycam> bigger than 31-bit
  200. # [04:30] <heycam> well, numbers that are in an unsigned 32-bit int that aren't in a signed one
  201. # [04:31] <othermaciej> so it means "unsigned 32-bit" then?
  202. # [04:31] <Hixie> it means that the conversion from Number doesn't clamp past 2**31
  203. # [04:32] <Hixie> (test 002 isn't testing signed vs unsigned)
  204. # [04:32] <Hixie> (test 001 does that)
  205. # [04:32] <Hixie> heycam: do you want mail on this?
  206. # [04:33] <heycam> yep that'd be good thanks
  207. # [04:33] <othermaciej> do you have a test for whether conversion clamps at 2^32?
  208. # [04:33] <Hixie> no, but i'll add one
  209. # [04:33] <othermaciej> (also, I should add, a possible weird browser behavior is to wrap around instead of clamping at whatever the limit is; hopefully no browser actually does that)
  210. # [04:34] <Hixie> oh some do
  211. # [04:34] <Hixie> one also just converts 4294967290 to -2**31
  212. # [04:34] <Hixie> in certain cases
  213. # [04:36] <heycam> the wrapping around is what is in webidl currently :)
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  215. # [04:36] <heycam> due to the use of ToUint32
  216. # [04:36] <heycam> ToInt32 would do that too, mind
  217. # [04:38] <Hixie> most browsers wrap around due to the use of ToInt32() at least in some cases
  218. # [04:38] <Hixie> webkit does it the most
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  220. # [04:39] <Hixie> ok nobody seems to support >2**32
  221. # [04:40] <othermaciej> yeah, at one point for WebKit we had the idea of using a different, non-wrapping conversion for signed values
  222. # [04:40] <othermaciej> or for unsigned, whatever
  223. # [04:40] <Hixie> IE is strangely inconsistent on this
  224. # [04:40] <Hixie> like they have different code for each attribute
  225. # [04:40] <Hixie> and it gets copied and pasted around with different changes accumulating
  226. # [04:41] <othermaciej> basically round the floating point double to the nearest integer (in the mathematical sense, not necessarily machine int), then clamp to boundaries and clean up non-finite values, then convert to appropriate machine type
  227. # [04:42] <Hixie> that seems like what webidl should say, imho
  228. # [04:43] <heycam> would cleaning up non-finite values be setting to 0? or, say, make +Infinity into the largest value in the set?
  229. # [04:43] <othermaciej> actually it should probably truncate or floor rather than round to nearest
  230. # [04:43] <othermaciej> but you get the idea
  231. # [04:44] <othermaciej> I would guess NaN should go to 0 and +/- Infinity to min/max values in the range
  232. # [04:45] * heycam brb lunch
  233. # [04:45] <heycam> that sounds reasonable btw
  234. # [04:46] <Hixie> sent mail
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  237. # [04:59] <shepazu> is anything being done about javascript's inability to round?
  238. # [05:01] <Hixie> inability to round?
  239. # [05:02] <Hixie> you mean the way it doesn't follow IEEE rules for rounding?
  240. # [05:02] <shepazu> when trying to round to particular significant digits (like $4,308,543.23, or such), you sometimes get rounding errors
  241. # [05:03] <Hixie> you mean using toFixed()? or something else...?
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  243. # [05:04] <shepazu> Hixie: I should come up with a specific example... I kept running into it when I was doing financial planning software, a while back... I will need to look back at my notes before I can speak intelligently on it
  244. # [05:04] <Hixie> k
  245. # [05:04] <Hixie> oh you might mean the normal base-2 behaviour of floats
  246. # [05:04] <shepazu> of course, there are several IEEE rounding rules
  247. # [05:05] <shepazu> Hixie: I might mean that, I'll have to figure out what you mean :)
  248. # [05:07] * shepazu reads http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_point
  249. # [05:07] <Hixie> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/273371/real-vs-floating-point-vs-money
  250. # [05:07] <Hixie> the ES group was looking at fixing that
  251. # [05:07] <Hixie> dunno if they did or not
  252. # [05:08] <Hixie> (the problem fundamentally isn't JS, it's that you shouldn't use binary floating point numbers for fixed-point maths)
  253. # [05:09] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.246.17.208) (Remote closed the connection)
  254. # [05:09] <shepazu> Hixie, yes, that's the very problem.
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  256. # [05:09] <shepazu> right, but I just want a solution :)
  257. # [05:09] <Hixie> use integers
  258. # [05:09] <Hixie> and divide by 100 everywhere
  259. # [05:09] <Hixie> or 1000, or whatever accuracy you need
  260. # [05:10] <Hixie> s/everywhere/for display/
  261. # [05:10] <shepazu> doesn't always work, if you don't know that accuracy you need
  262. # [05:10] <Hixie> (that's basically all that a decimal type would do)
  263. # [05:10] <Hixie> why wouldn't you know the accuracy you ned?
  264. # [05:10] <Hixie> need
  265. # [05:10] <shepazu> honestly, I should look back at it... I don't recall if I finally found a solution that worked
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  270. # [05:27] <othermaciej> ECMAScript does follow IEEE rounding rules
  271. # [05:27] <othermaciej> there is an ongoing proposal to add a decimal floating point type to ECMAScript
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  274. # [05:35] <shepazu> othermaciej: ok, thanks
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  278. # [06:10] <Hixie> othermaciej: for Math.round() it seems to not use the even-up odd-down rule (or whatever the rule is, i forget the details) but to just go towards the appropriate signed infinity
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  284. # [06:43] <Hixie> (document.all == undefined) && (undefined == undefined) && (document.all != document.all)
  285. # [06:43] <Hixie> true or false?
  286. # [06:44] <gavin_> true
  287. # [06:45] <Hixie> why? :-)
  288. # [06:45] <Hixie> and in what browsers?
  289. # [06:46] <gavin_> because that's what Gecko returns and I'm horribly biased ;)
  290. # [06:46] <Hixie> biased returns false
  291. # [06:46] <Hixie> er
  292. # [06:46] <Hixie> gecko even
  293. # [06:47] <Hixie> returns false
  294. # [06:47] <gavin_> not my gecko
  295. # [06:47] <gavin_> huh, trunk differs from 3.5.x
  296. # [06:47] <Hixie> Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2a1pre) Gecko/20090709 Minefield/3.6a1pre
  297. # [06:47] <Hixie> returns false
  298. # [06:47] <gavin_> 3.5.x returns true
  299. # [06:47] <Hixie> that's ancient history :-)
  300. # [06:47] <Hixie> but that's weird
  301. # [06:48] <Hixie> why would this change
  302. # [06:48] <Hixie> and why would it ever return true?!
  303. # [06:48] <gavin_> I bet it's peterv's fault
  304. # [06:48] <othermaciej> in Safari, it's surprisingly true that document.all != document.all
  305. # [06:49] <othermaciej> I have no idea why
  306. # [06:49] <Hixie> probably a bug with the ==undefined magic
  307. # [06:49] <gavin_> (I suspect https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=482788 changed that behavior)
  308. # [06:49] <othermaciej> document.all == document.all is false
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  315. # [07:05] <ukai> i'm wondering we call "Web Socket", "WebSocket", "web socket" or "web sockets"... cf. https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=27206
  316. # [07:06] <Hixie> "Web Socket" is the name of the technology, WebSocket is the name of the interface, and the other two are informal.
  317. # [07:06] <Hixie> actually "Web Sockets" is the name of the technology, iirc
  318. # [07:06] <ukai> what is the difference between "Web Socket" and "Web Sockets" ?
  319. # [07:06] <Hixie> one is singular and one is plural :-)
  320. # [07:07] <Hixie> looks like i used the plural for the API and the singular for the protocol
  321. # [07:08] <ukai> hmm, which configuration flag name do you recommend to enable the technology?
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  323. # [07:09] <Hixie> *shrug*
  324. # [07:09] <Hixie> doesn't matter :-)
  325. # [07:09] <ukai> ok :-)
  326. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> ukai: I think when speaking about the feature, people just sort of naturally tend to call it "Web Sockets" (plural, with a space)
  327. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> like saying, "Server Sent Events" or whatever
  328. # [07:12] <ukai> ok, i'll use "Web Sockets"
  329. # [07:12] <ukai> thanks!
  330. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> ukai: btw, I'm really looking forward to seeing what you guys get done
  331. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> I mean on the Web Sockets work you're doing
  332. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> 楽しみに
  333. # [07:14] <ukai> you can find the work-in-progress code on http://codereview.chromium.org/155079
  334. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> oh cool
  335. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> thanks man
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  377. # [09:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: did you intend to allow spaces in itemprops?
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  384. # [10:28] <othermaciej> ok, seriously? draconian parsing mode for text/html?
  385. # [10:28] <othermaciej> I can't believe this is an idea that more than one person sees favorably
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  388. # [10:37] <takkaria> arrgj
  389. # [10:38] <takkaria> that's terrible
  390. # [10:41] <takkaria> can't someone just lobby their favourite browsers to include hsivonen's validator or something?
  391. # [10:46] <othermaciej> or, if you want draconian parsing in every browser likely to implement HTML5 within a decade, use XML
  392. # [10:46] <takkaria> that works too
  393. # [10:47] <jgraham> It seems like a silly idea but I assume that from the pov of the spec it would be rather simple; it would force the parser into "bail on first parse error" mode
  394. # [10:48] <takkaria> aye
  395. # [10:48] <takkaria> it does seem to be the kind of thing that should a browser toggle for authors, rather than an author toggle for users
  396. # [10:49] <jgraham> Indeed'
  397. # [10:50] <gsnedders> And then someone will use strict mode, develop with a current browser, try it with a more up to date browser, and find it breaks and blame the new browser.
  398. # [10:52] <jgraham> I thought everyone agreed that the "important financial transation" argument was bunkum
  399. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> r3401 does not affect validators?
  400. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=3400&to=3401
  401. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ↑
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  404. # [11:05] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: It doesn't because the definition of what is valid is above that, and you don't care about parsing rules.
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  406. # [11:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: does it require new error messages?
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  410. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> hsivonen, gsnedders - I wasn't sure if that part of the spec related to integer datatype-checking or not
  411. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> Hixie: could not Web Socket protocol just use port 80?
  412. # [11:18] <Philip`> jgraham: In the context of XML in general, or HTML specifically?
  413. # [11:19] <Philip`> Maybe people will start performing financial transactions over Twitter, and if its response page aborts in the middle of a transaction tweet then you'll be wishing HTML had draconian error handling
  414. # [11:21] <hsivonen> Philip`: hehe. Mr. Safe turns to Twitter
  415. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> Mr Safe?
  416. # [11:23] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  417. # [11:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Mr.+Safe%22+site%3Atbray.org
  418. # [11:23] <jgraham> Philip`: In any context. If you care about errors introduced during transmission, sign the message. If you care about the server sending a complete message add application-specific checking of the message that goes well beyond XML-well-formedness
  419. # [11:25] <jgraham> (in general if you don't trust the server code you have lost anyway afaict because a server that has a bug leading it to cut off a message like <amount>1234</amount> could just as well have a bug that led it to produce <amount>12345</amount>
  420. # [11:25] <jgraham> )
  421. # [11:28] <Philip`> jgraham: What if you care about errors introduced during serialisation (e.g. running out of buffer space and truncating the message), after you've validated the application data and before you've done any transmission?
  422. # [11:29] <Philip`> Oh, I suppose you do something like compute a checksum of the application data (not of the serialisation) and then transmit and check that
  423. # [11:29] <jgraham> For example
  424. # [11:30] <jgraham> Plus make those errors fatal on the server
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  427. # [11:40] <Philip`> "someone will use strict mode, develop with a current browser, try it with a more up to date browser, and find it breaks and blame the new browser." - it sounds like the proposal is that someone will copy-and-paste parsing=strict from wherever, develop in the latest version of IE (which doesn't support the feature), and then their users use a browser in which it fails "in-[their]-face"
  428. # [11:41] <Philip`> so you don't even need to worry about browsers changing over time, because nobody expects IE to ever implement it anyway
  429. # [11:43] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should reply to the strict mode thread
  430. # [11:49] <othermaciej_> I don't think I have anything to add to the strict mode thread except http://tinyurl.com/d5gs7f
  431. # [11:49] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  432. # [11:50] <hsivonen> sigh. someone made a Java impl of the public suffix list stuff but chose to offer it under a GPL-incompatible license
  433. # [11:52] <hsivonen> even though it's a port of a C++ implementation that was GPL-compatible
  434. # [11:54] <Philip`> Could you ask them to change the license?
  435. # [11:57] <hsivonen> I suppose I could
  436. # [11:58] <Philip`> <html parsing=strict parsing=loose> - I wonder if that would be a fatal error
  437. # [11:58] * Philip` supposes it can't be implemented properly without reparsing anyway
  438. # [12:00] <jgraham> Philip`: I assume we would have no reparsing and just use whatever the defined attribute precedence is if it is declared multiple times on the same element
  439. # [12:02] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I agree with your assessment
  440. # [12:03] <Philip`> jgraham: But is the error fatal if it occurs after the fatality attribute has been parsed but before the element with the fatality attribute has been emitted?
  441. # [12:04] <Philip`> Actually, I suppose you could just keep a pointer to the first parse error and then fatalise it once you've found the fatality indicator
  442. # [12:07] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  443. # [12:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: i'd like a plain text version of html5. useful when you want to find something quickly
  444. # [12:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: like http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/html40.txt
  445. # [12:08] <Philip`> zcorpan: links -dump or something like that?
  446. # [12:09] <Philip`> or lynx or whatever it is
  447. # [12:09] <zcorpan> Philip`: yeah
  448. # [12:12] <gsnedders> zcorpan: http://gsnedders.html5.org/html5.txt
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  450. # [12:13] <zcorpan> gsnedders: is it always up to date?
  451. # [12:14] <gsnedders> zcorpan: No, I could set up a cron job to do it though
  452. # [12:14] <zcorpan> gsnedders: thanks!
  453. # [12:15] <zcorpan> 22013 links
  454. # [12:16] <zcorpan> maybe the internal links are a bit useless to print out
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  456. # [12:18] <gsnedders> zcorpan: OK, I set up cron to update it every day now
  457. # [12:19] <zcorpan> gsnedders: thanks
  458. # [12:21] <Philip`> gsnedders: Needs charset
  459. # [12:21] <gsnedders> Philip`: Does it? What?
  460. # [12:23] <Philip`> gsnedders: There's non-ASCII characters like © in html5.txt but no charset specified
  461. # [12:24] <zcorpan> &#50980;&#49437;&#52268; (Channy Yun)
  462. # [12:24] <gsnedders> Yeah, I saw that.
  463. # [12:24] <gsnedders> I guess the problem is at the Lynx end
  464. # [12:28] <gsnedders> Where is DanC's web addresses draft?
  465. # [12:30] <gsnedders> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/href/draft.html is the latest?
  466. # [12:38] <jgraham> It would be nice to get the text in wikipedia-style or markdown format instead
  467. # [12:41] <takkaria> http://milianw.de/projects/markdownify/
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  469. # [12:46] <jgraham> takkaria: There is also http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/html2text/ although I don't reccommend trying the online service with the HTML 5 spec
  470. # [12:47] <jgraham> It seems like it shouldn't be so difficult to implement such a tool based on html5lib but I don't have time, of course
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  473. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> w3mmee
  474. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: might it be conceivable that sometime soon you could have bandwidth for speccing DOMParser and XMLSerializer?
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  477. # [13:07] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: dunno
  478. # [13:11] * gsnedders can't imagine that speccing them would take very long
  479. # [13:12] <zcorpan> i wonder if someone is willing to take over editing of web dom core
  480. # [13:12] <zcorpan> maybe someone from mozilla or apple
  481. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: if we could find someone willing to do that, would you be willing to commit to writing up domparser and xmlserializer?
  482. # [13:15] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: maybe :)
  483. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> OK
  484. # [13:17] * gsnedders wouldn't be entirely against doing it himself
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  486. # [13:21] <hsivonen> I kinda want to spec XMLSerializer and DOMParser, but I expect not to have the bandwidth for the next 6 months even if I otherwise got an OK on doing it
  487. # [13:21] <gsnedders> Why doesn't HTML5's rendering section touch on framespacing?
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  490. # [13:26] <zcorpan> gsnedders: i think because gecko and webkit ignore it
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  494. # [13:26] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/167
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  499. # [13:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: one of the permitted but obsolete doctypes triggers the quirks mode in Mac IE 5. Do you not care?
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  501. # [13:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's the one used on ln.hixie.ch :-)
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  518. # [14:22] <Lachy> hsivonen, Mac IE 5 has been obsolete for years. It's just as irrelevant now as Netscape 4.
  519. # [14:23] <hsivonen> Lachy: I guess it's OK. After all, <!DOCTYPE html> triggers the quirks mode in Netscape 6.0
  520. # [14:23] <Lachy> wow, I didn't know that
  521. # [14:24] <jgraham> Um, Netscape 6 was irrelevant when it was current wasn't it? ;)
  522. # [14:24] <hsivonen> Lachy: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ :-)
  523. # [14:25] <gsnedders> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/168 should produce a U+FFFD element, right?
  524. # [14:25] <Lachy> jgraham, no, Netscape 6 was relevant for a short period around 2002/03 (whenever it was released)
  525. # [14:26] <Lachy> or maybe it was 2001. I can't remember. But I know I used it while I was at Uni.
  526. # [14:26] <jgraham> "relevant" in the sense that it often hung before crashing whereas sometimes it just crashed (I used it too)
  527. # [14:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: don't speak ill of the dead
  528. # [14:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: They're dead, what will they do about it?
  529. # [14:27] <jgraham> ;)
  530. # [14:28] <Lachy> jgraham, relevant in the sense that it was one of the few decent alternatives available during the early years of IE6's monopoly.
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  532. # [14:28] <jgraham> (obviously the work that went in to Netscape 6 eventually led to something rather good. But that release was way way too early)
  533. # [14:28] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Am I right in thinking Fx 3.6 (with HTML5 parser) trims data at U+0000 (and inserts a U+FFFD at the end)?
  534. # [14:29] <Lachy> and by "decent", I mean "available and not IE"
  535. # [14:29] <gsnedders> Lachy: IE5/Mac was decent and was IE :P
  536. # [14:29] <Lachy> gsnedders, IE5/Mac wasn't available on Windows
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  539. # [14:34] <Lachy> hsivonen, are you planning to report HTML5 parse errors through Minefield's error console?
  540. # [14:34] <Lachy> Is that possible to do?
  541. # [14:35] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes, eventually, if it doesn't poison perf and if someone else doesn't override me
  542. # [14:35] <Lachy> cool
  543. # [14:39] <Lachy> hsivonen, will that involve just parse errors, or will it effectively incorporate the HTML5 validator, and report, e.g., content model errors too?
  544. # [14:39] <zcorpan> gsnedders: no, the parser can't create elements that start with U+FFFD
  545. # [14:39] <zcorpan> gsnedders: will be a text node
  546. # [14:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: It's extremely unlikely to get content model errors from C++ code in Gecko
  547. # [14:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: I encourage people to port the above-parser layer of V.nu to JS & Firebug, though
  548. # [14:43] <hsivonen> Lachy: also, it's extremely unlikely that Gecko would whine about per-character parse errors like non-characters
  549. # [14:44] <gsnedders> zcorpan: ah, k
  550. # [14:45] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Because of perf?
  551. # [14:45] <hsivonen> gsnedders: yes
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  553. # [14:52] <hsivonen> would anyone want to suggest wording for the normative warning on @summary?
  554. # [14:53] <Philip`> hsivonen: I suggest ""
  555. # [14:54] <jgraham> hsivonen: I can have a go if you like
  556. # [14:54] * gsnedders puts on fair ground accent, "Come on! Have a go!"
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  559. # [14:55] <takkaria> step right up, everyone's a winner
  560. # [14:55] <jgraham> s/winner/loser/
  561. # [14:55] <takkaria> (scare quotes implied)
  562. # [14:56] <hsivonen> what about border='0'. "Hixie wants YOU to use CSS."? :-)
  563. # [14:56] <gsnedders> hsivonen: s/to use CSS.//
  564. # [14:56] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Maybe keep it in small type, actually
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  566. # [14:59] <hsivonen> Hmm. It's hard to come up with credible warnings for these.
  567. # [15:00] <hsivonen> "id is a more fashionable attribute than name." maybe?
  568. # [15:00] <hsivonen> hmm. actually, that one is easier
  569. # [15:01] <hsivonen> something like "Consider putting an id attribute on the nearest container instead of using <a name>
  570. # [15:01] <jgraham> hsivonen: For name just say "Warning: the name attribute on a elements is obsolete. The id attribute should be used to serve the same purpose"
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  574. # [15:03] <Lachy> "Consider summarising the purpose and structure of the table in the prose surrounding the table, rather than using the summary attribute, to make it available to more people who might find it useful."
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  576. # [15:03] <Dashiva> hsivonen: For border, wouldn't it make sense to say that it becomes messy if you want to style other parts of the table with CSS?
  577. # [15:03] <Lachy> Correction: "Consider summarising the purpose and structure of the table in the surrounding prose, rather than using the summary attribute, to make it available to more people who might find it useful."
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  579. # [15:03] <jgraham> hsivonen: For summary maybe something like "Warning: the summary attribute on tables is obsolete. Authours should instead provide information about the structure of complex tables in a <caption> element or in the surrounding prose usis aria to associate the description with the table (more...)"
  580. # [15:03] <hsivonen> Dashiva: border=0 is for <img>
  581. # [15:03] <hsivonen> Dashiva: to zap the hideous border in IE and Firefox
  582. # [15:04] <hsivonen> Dashiva: from copy-pasted badged
  583. # [15:04] <hsivonen> *badges
  584. # [15:04] <jgraham> where (more...) links to a page with a more detailed discussion of the issue
  585. # [15:04] <jgraham> (in general such pages would be a nice feature if you don't already have them)
  586. # [15:04] <Lachy> "Consider specifying <code>a img, img[usemap] { border: 0; } in CSS instead"
  587. # [15:05] <Dashiva> hsivonen: "Removing the image border in CSS means you don't have to think about it the next time you add an image" :)
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  590. # [15:06] <Lachy> why can't Firefox and IE just remove that hideous border by default?
  591. # [15:07] <Dashiva> Then how will you know if you've visited the image link before? :)
  592. # [15:07] <hsivonen> I guess I should try writing a patch for https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=452915
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  596. # [15:09] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if the rendering section covers this now
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  607. # [15:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: did you intend to make space characters in the name attribute conforming but obsolete?
  608. # [15:29] <hsivonen> weren't spaces in name a problem?
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  614. # [16:35] <takkaria> strict parsing specified in CSS? what?
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  616. # [16:36] <Philip`> I think we should have <script>document.enableStrictParsing(true)</script>
  617. # [16:37] <Philip`> document.write already means there's coupling between the parser and the script engine, so it's a natural place to put it
  618. # [16:37] <jgraham> Philip`: Just writing that caused a dozen heads to explode
  619. # [16:38] <Philip`> Objective achieved!
  620. # [16:38] * Philip` sees someone with User-Agent "Mozilla/5.0 (000000000; 0; 00000 000 00 0 0000; 00000; 00000000) DDDDDDDDDDDDDD DDDDDDDDDDD"
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  655. # [18:28] <Lachy> yay! http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/07/ksplice-is-like-viagra-for-linux-server-uptime.ars
  656. # [18:29] <Lachy> now if only we could apply those techniques to all software updating
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  673. # [19:10] <Spark^> anyone have any good ideas for a stable version of html5lib for python? i did manage to get rid of one error by doing hg update tip rather than hg update (which I assumed would be the same?) but i'm still getting an error at runtime in html5parser.py (processDocType)
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  715. # [20:54] <Lachy__> Now I am completely confused by Leif's CSS based @media proposal for strict HTML parsing. It just makes no sense to me.
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  719. # [20:57] <tantek> Lachy, when did strict HTML parsing ever make sense? (independent of syntax/format)
  720. # [20:58] <Lachy__> tantek, it doesn't
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  725. # [21:01] <hober> Doug's use case could be addressed by a Firefox plugin / lint tool
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  728. # [21:02] <Lachy> hober, that depends on exactly what Doug wants
  729. # [21:02] <Lachy> which isn't clear from his initial proposal
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  731. # [21:04] <hober> I took his use case to be "developer changes markup (served as text/html), hits reload, immediately sees in his browser some indication of parse errors"
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  735. # [21:05] <hober> basically, his first bullet point
  736. # [21:05] <tantek> hober - that use case is better addressed by a text editor that validates markup while you're editing, and flags errors (perhaps after waiting 1-2 seconds after you're done typing)
  737. # [21:05] <hober> totally agreed
  738. # [21:05] <tantek> no need to reload in browser to check validity
  739. # [21:05] <tantek> and much faster to have it in the editor
  740. # [21:05] <hober> [which is why I'm working on that :)]
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  742. # [21:05] <tantek> heck, even use red squiggly lines like spellcheckers
  743. # [21:05] <Lachy> hober, yes, that much is clear, but what's not clear is exactly what he wants to be considered as a parse error
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  745. # [21:06] <hober> Lachy: indeed.
  746. # [21:06] <tantek> to indicate invalid tags, attributes, attribute values
  747. # [21:06] <Lachy> like, does he want unquoted attributes to be considered an error (like XML), or for that to be perfectly fine like it is in normal HTML
  748. # [21:06] <hober> should it yell about a missing (or present) solidus, etc.
  749. # [21:06] * tantek makes a Lazyweb request: Text editor that does HTML validity checking in realtime/inline similar to the way that modern text editors check spelling with red squiggly lines.
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  751. # [21:07] <hober> tantek: assuming you're authoring xhtml5 with nxml-mode in Emacs, and plug in this stuff http://github.com/hober/html5-el/tree/master you've already got that. :)
  752. # [21:08] <hober> the line isn't squiggly, but it is red
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  756. # [21:24] <Philip`> tantek: Text editor validation doesn't help when you're writing code that generates markup dynamically
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  768. # [21:35] <tantek> Philip' - it does for text editors that can open an HTML file via HTTP URL.
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  770. # [21:37] <Philip`> tantek: That seems less convenient than opening the HTTP URL in a web browser (with a valiator extension), and I thought the point was to make it more convenient
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  772. # [21:38] <tantek> Philip` - I can see reasons for each use case.
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  803. # [23:32] <sicking> Hixie, ping
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  807. # [23:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: itemprops? not sure i follow your question.
  808. # [23:54] <Hixie> MikeSmith: you can use any port with websocket, but port 80 is http by default
  809. # [23:54] <Hixie> zcorpan: send mail
  810. # [23:55] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm not especially concerned about MacIE5, no :-)
  811. # [23:55] <hober> Hixie: I think hsivonen's question is about <span item="foo"><span itemprop="bar baz">...</span></span>
  812. # [23:55] <hober> IIRC item foo has two properties, bar and baz
  813. # [23:56] <Hixie> hsivonen: send mail about spaces in name=""
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  815. # [23:56] <Hixie> sicking: pong
  816. # [23:56] <Hixie> hober: if that's what he meant, then yeah, that's two properties... is the spec vague about that?
  817. # [23:57] <sicking> Hixie, so we ran into an minor issue implementing .files on drag-n-drop dataTransfer
  818. # [23:57] <sicking> Hixie, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=503598#c18
  819. # [23:57] <sicking> Hixie, basically, we don't want to expose the files during drags
  820. # [23:57] <sicking> Hixie, but i suspect we want to expose the fact that there are files in there
  821. # [23:58] <Hixie> yeah you should only expose them ondrop
  822. # [23:58] * Hixie looks at the bug
  823. # [23:58] <Hixie> (same applies to all data, not just files)
  824. # [23:59] <Hixie> if you get arun to finish his draft, i'll spec this in the html5 spec immediately
  825. # Session Close: Wed Jul 15 00:00:00 2009

The end :)