/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-07-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jul 18 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:07] <Hixie> wow, talk about preaching to the choir http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jul/0127.html
  6. # [00:07] <Hixie> steven pemberton is now lecuring _me_ on the "real world" and following what browsers do
  7. # [00:07] <Hixie> how the world has changed
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  28. # [01:12] <othermaciej> Hixie: amusing
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  134. # [12:31] * gsnedders is tempted to do more work on HTTP parsing
  135. # [12:39] <gsnedders> Is it sensible to use ABNF but state that alternations must be matched from left to right?
  136. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: yeah, I think it would be. as long as you made that clear in the spec
  137. # [12:41] <gsnedders> It means I don't end up with things like: ( [ ":" *LWS ] 1*header-content-nc [ *LWS ":" ] / 1*":" / 1*header-content-nc 1*LWS ":" *LWS header-content [ *( header-content / LWS ) header-content ] ) *LWS
  138. # [12:41] <gsnedders> That was an attempt to give everything that doesn't match another rule :)
  139. # [12:42] <Philip`> If the order of matching is important, that sounds like a fundamental shift from the usual notion of a language grammar
  140. # [12:43] <gsnedders> *( %x00-09 / %x0B-FF ) LF is a lot simpler :)
  141. # [12:43] <Philip`> (since normally grammars just define a set of matching strings, and it's irrelevant how you matched it)
  142. # [12:44] <gsnedders> The URI spec relies upon such a restraint though
  143. # [12:45] <Philip`> It sort of sounds like you want to define a new type of alternative, such that "Rule1 / Rule2" matches if Rule1 matches or else if Rule1 doesn't match and Rule2 does match
  144. # [12:46] <Philip`> but that matches exactly the same as the normal type of alternative
  145. # [12:46] <Philip`> so I may be misunderstanding what you want
  146. # [12:46] <gsnedders> Peh. If anyone complains I'll just say that RFC 3986 and 3987 (URI and IRI respectively) do this too.
  147. # [12:46] <Philip`> s/exactly the same/exactly the same set of strings/
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  149. # [12:47] <Philip`> I suppose it makes more sense if you have an unambiguous grammar and you're interested in which rules match
  150. # [12:48] <gsnedders> Is there any way to easily work out a rule that represents everything that doesn't match another rule?
  151. # [12:48] <Philip`> in which case it seems like the 'correct' thing to do would be to define an AABNF which adds a new unambiguating-alternative rule
  152. # [12:49] <Philip`> because then it would be well defined and unambiguous and everything
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  154. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> dammit
  155. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> Philip`: help me out please
  156. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> File "tools/spec-splitter.py", line 64, in ?
  157. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> parser = etree.HTMLParser(encoding='utf-8', recover=False)
  158. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> TypeError: 'encoding' is an invalid keyword argument for this function
  159. # [12:50] <Philip`> gsnedders: I don't think it is
  160. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> Philip`: missing python module?
  161. # [12:51] <gsnedders> Philip`: ?
  162. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> or a not-up-to-date one?
  163. # [12:53] <Philip`> gsnedders: ...but I could be wrong
  164. # [12:53] <Philip`> s/it is/there is/
  165. # [12:53] <gsnedders> Oh, there is.
  166. # [12:54] <gsnedders> That makes a lot more sense.
  167. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> Philip`: my lxml too old, maybe?
  168. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> nm
  169. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> I'll run it from another host where I can actually make the sure packages are up to date
  170. # [13:08] <Philip`> gsnedders: Hmm, I'm probably wrong, but I don't know why
  171. # [13:09] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I think it requires lxml 2.0
  172. # [13:09] <Philip`> but that's the only version issue I know of
  173. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yep, I think so. and I updating to 2.0 on the host I was trying this on would be too much of a PITA, so I'll just run it from my own server
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  208. # [17:36] <inimino> gsnedders: what you describe is basically a PEG
  209. # [17:37] <gsnedders> a PEG?
  210. # [17:37] <inimino> rather than BNF
  211. # [17:38] * gsnedders points out he isn't a compsci guy
  212. # [17:38] <takkaria> gsnedders: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsing_expression_grammar
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  216. # [17:51] <gsnedders> inimino: I do, however, need something formally defined to enough of an extent to use in a spec.
  217. # [17:53] <inimino> PEGs are quite formally defined, but if the protocol is byte-oriented you might want to use the ABNF notation for terminals anyway
  218. # [17:53] <inimino> it's fairly common to treat ABNF this way and there are even some parser generators that treat ABNF like something it's not
  219. # [17:54] <inimino> technically it's impossible to generate an efficient parser from an ABNF since they can be ambiguous
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  222. # [18:00] <gsnedders> inimino: Yeah, right, I know.
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  260. # [21:15] <guyzmo> hi
  261. # [21:16] <guyzmo> I'm parsing an html page with html5lib, and I get troubles when I want to get contents
  262. # [21:16] <guyzmo> like when I'm in an anchor element, shall I use toxml() to get the XXX part of : "<a>XXX</a>" ?
  263. # [21:16] <guyzmo> (haven't found any other way)
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  273. # [22:18] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Why does section 11 of the HTML5 spec use the XHTML namespace while defining style for HTML5-only elements?
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  275. # [22:26] <Philip`> GPHemsley: All HTML5 elements are parsed into the XHTML namespace
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  278. # [22:44] <GPHemsley> Philip`: Oh. Is that implicit?
  279. # [22:45] <Philip`> GPHemsley: It's explicit in the spec that that happens, but the markup doesn't have to have any xmlns attributes or anything
  280. # [22:45] <GPHemsley> k
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  291. # [23:23] <GPHemsley> What's the difference between <embed> and <object>? Is one favored over the other?
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  293. # [23:28] <jcranmer> <embed> is specifically plugin related, IIRC
  294. # [23:28] <jcranmer> that is, I'm pretty sure an image/*-in-embed wouldn't work
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  300. # Session Close: Sun Jul 19 00:00:00 2009

The end :)