/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-07-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jul 19 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:04] <GPHemsley> jcranmer: What about Flash?
  5. # [00:04] * jcranmer doesn't know anything
  6. # [00:04] <GPHemsley> k
  7. # [00:05] <GPHemsley> Strangely, you also cannot style <object>, it seems. It styles the fall-back underneath. :/
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  27. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie: can an unquoted attribute value contain a solidus?
  28. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> ah, I guess it can
  29. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> nm
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  63. # [09:20] <gsnedders> Wow. Lovely weather.
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  66. # [09:56] <Hixie> wasn't the margins on <section> and company zcorpan's idea
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  82. # [14:18] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  83. # [14:18] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  84. # [14:19] <Dashiva> document.getItems() is a pretty generic name, hope it doesn't lead to confusion
  85. # [14:20] <hendry> zcorpan: oh. urm. It's not obvious to me what h1 I should put there on the body root. I'd rather not have anything.
  86. # [14:20] <zcorpan> hendry: you could wrap the <article> around the "Spanish sensibilities" section
  87. # [14:22] <hendry> zcorpan: true
  88. # [14:22] <zcorpan> hendry: "Archives Links" seems like it shouldn't be a heading, maybe <nav>
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  113. # [18:33] <nslater> why does this document talk about MIME types instead of media types:
  114. # [18:34] <nslater> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
  115. # [18:34] <nslater> also, I notice this:
  116. # [18:34] <nslater> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/video.html#media-types
  117. # [18:35] <nslater> which has a section called "media types" and then talkes about MIME types
  118. # [18:37] <nslater> hmm, this also seems to use the two interchangeably:
  119. # [18:37] <nslater> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
  120. # [18:38] <nslater> are these oversights, or is there some specific distinction the working group is intenting to highlight? sorry if I'm missing anything obvious, this is just a drive-by comment after skimming some linked from intertwingly.net
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  124. # [19:14] <ehird> wow — [[That’s where we are with HTML. If we were designing a spec from scratch, it would look much like XHTML 2, which I described elsewhere as “a beautiful specification of philosophical purity that had absolutely no resemblance to the real world”, and which was aborted by the W3C last week.]] — no comment required; it practically satires itself
  125. # [19:21] <gsnedders> nslater: Just editorial inconsistency.
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  134. # [21:21] <Lachy> gsnedders, you're now an admin for the whatwg blog
  135. # [21:21] * gsnedders starts carrying out his plan for world domination
  136. # [21:23] <Lachy> gsnedders, where exactly did that spammer inject that crap into?
  137. # [21:23] <gsnedders> Lachy: footer
  138. # [21:23] <Lachy> in the template?
  139. # [21:24] <Lachy> I'll just restore that from backup
  140. # [21:24] <gsnedders> Lachy: Yeah, the footer.
  141. # [21:24] <gsnedders> Lachy: I could just delete it from the admin panel :P
  142. # [21:25] <Lachy> I can just as easily restore the entire template directory, so we don't miss anything
  143. # [21:28] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  144. # [21:29] <Lachy> crap. The most recent backup has it too. Looks like we were hit a while ago without anyone noticing
  145. # [21:32] <Lachy> I just installed a fresh copy of the default kubrik theme
  146. # [21:34] * Philip` excitingly finds a trivial way to make a .ttf file that crashes Opera on OS X, but seemingly no other browsers and no other OSes
  147. # [21:35] * Philip` wonders where crashes reported via Opera's magical popup error-reporting dialog box go to
  148. # [21:35] <takkaria> the internal BTS
  149. # [21:36] <Lachy> damn, I think the WP-Cache plugin is making it harder to erradicate the spam :-(
  150. # [21:36] <Lachy> I just need to figure out how to force it to invalidate the cache
  151. # [21:38] <Lachy> done
  152. # [21:39] <Philip`> takkaria: Hmm, I guess it's a part of the BTS that I can't see
  153. # [21:40] <takkaria> Philip`: I'm guessing as much, anyway
  154. # [21:40] <Philip`> takkaria: Oh, okay
  155. # [21:41] <gsnedders> takkaria: Where in BTS? I've never seen them.
  156. # [21:41] <gsnedders> I guess Desktop team though anyway
  157. # [21:43] <Lachy> Hixie, I just changed my SSH keys for everything recently. I suppose I could also change the password, but I will have to look up what it is and find out how to change it
  158. # [21:43] <takkaria> gsnedders/Philip`: hm, I may be mistaken then
  159. # [21:47] <Lachy> Hixie, to prevent that from happening again, I made all of the template directories non-writable
  160. # [21:47] <Lachy> so if anyone ever wants to edit the templates, ask me first
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  162. # [22:03] <Hixie> nslater: fixed the "media types" section title; where else are they used interchangeably?
  163. # [22:03] <Hixie> Lachy: thanks, good work
  164. # [22:09] <nslater> Hixie: hey, well just poked around whatever documents I could find in google, and I seem to find both being used. shouldn't "media type" be the one you use? MIME is old, and for email. right?
  165. # [22:11] <nslater> "An Internet media type,[1] originally called a MIME type after MIME and sometimes a Content-type after the name of a header in several protocols whose value is such a type, is a two-part identifier for file formats on the Internet." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_media_type
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  168. # [22:15] <Hixie> nslater: the term "media type" is also used for things like "screen" vs "tv" vs "braille" so it would be confusing to (continue to) call MIME types "media types", so that's why we try to use "MIME types" for those
  169. # [22:16] <Hixie> (MIME types don't really talk about "media" per se so the term "media type" is very misleading)
  170. # [22:20] <nslater> Hixie: that's an interesting point, but at this stage, I think the generally accepted name is media type and it would seem weird to ignore that, especially if that introuces nomenclature discrepencies with the rest of the W3C cannon. is it really that much of an issue? I'm guessing that its meaning can be accurately infered from context. you're not likely to talk about Internet Media Types and @media types in the same sections
  171. # [22:21] <Hixie> nslater: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-source-element talks about media types and MIME types in adjacent normative paragraphs
  172. # [22:21] <nslater> heh, that was quick!
  173. # [22:21] * nslater checks
  174. # [22:22] <Hixie> (though it tries to avoid the term "media type" altogether to reduce confusion for precisely this reason)
  175. # [22:22] <nslater> wow, that document has caused firefox to grey out under gnome!
  176. # [22:23] <Hixie> oh let me send you a link to the multipage version
  177. # [22:23] <Hixie> hold on
  178. # [22:23] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#the-source-element
  179. # [22:25] <nslater> hmm, if "media type" was hyperlinked each time, like I see "media resource" is, would that not help? I'm actually strugling to see the other use of media type in this section. can you give me a bit of text to search for?
  180. # [22:26] <nslater> "The media attribute gives the intended media type of the media resource, to help the user agent determine if this media resource is useful to the user before fetching it. Its value must be a valid media query."
  181. # [22:26] <nslater> .. I think that's the bit
  182. # [22:26] <Hixie> Right, the type attribute is a MIME type, the media attribute is a media query.
  183. # [22:27] <nslater> which could be reworded to "The media attribute gives the intended type of the media resource" maybe? dunno
  184. # [22:27] <Hixie> "media resource"?
  185. # [22:27] <Hixie> it's the media type of the resource
  186. # [22:27] <Hixie> i.e. whether it's intended for screen, or projection, or whatever
  187. # [22:27] <nslater> I just copied that from the document
  188. # [22:28] <Hixie> (the hyperlinking solution would fail in the print copy)
  189. # [22:28] <nslater> "The media attribute gives the intended media type of the media resource"
  190. # [22:28] <nslater> to:
  191. # [22:28] <nslater> "The media attribute gives the intended type of the media resource"
  192. # [22:28] <Hixie> what kind of type?
  193. # [22:28] <Hixie> media type? MIME type? codec type?
  194. # [22:29] <nslater> hmm..
  195. # [22:29] <Hixie> anyway. the long and short of it is the word "media type" is being used to mean, well, the kind of media, and the word MIME type is being used for MIME types
  196. # [22:29] <Hixie> because that avoids the confusion
  197. # [22:29] <Hixie> at least a little
  198. # [22:29] <Hixie> i can mention this explicitly in the terminology section if you like
  199. # [22:29] <nslater> I notice that IANA uses both at the same time, which really helps:
  200. # [22:29] <nslater> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/
  201. # [22:29] <nslater> heh
  202. # [22:29] <nslater> Hixie: yeah, that might be a good idea
  203. # [22:31] <nslater> both these documents use "media type" as a section header fwiw:
  204. # [22:31] <nslater> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/video.html#media-types
  205. # [22:31] <nslater> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
  206. # [22:31] <nslater> there may be more, I didn't check
  207. # [22:31] <Hixie> the TR page is obsolete, don't worry about that
  208. # [22:31] <nslater> sure
  209. # [22:32] <Hixie> the only remaining mention of "media type" in the other one is talking about media types
  210. # [22:32] <Hixie> not mime types
  211. # [22:33] <nslater> okay cool
  212. # [22:35] <nslater> thanks for the feedback too, didn't know if irc was appropriate for minor comments
  213. # [22:37] <Hixie> it's ok, e-mail is preferred if you want it to definitely be responded to :-)
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  215. # [22:39] <nslater> :p
  216. # [22:45] <Philip`> (You might have to wait three years for the response, though)
  217. # [22:46] <Hixie> i think my record is about 4 years
  218. # [22:46] <Hixie> nowadays it tends to be about a month
  219. # [22:49] <Hixie> nslater: ok added a paragraph to the intro section; let me know if it can be improved.
  220. # [22:57] <nslater> Hixie: what URI should I check?
  221. # [22:57] <Hixie> the one you posted
  222. # [22:57] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
  223. # [22:58] <Hixie> bottom of this section: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#resources
  224. # [22:58] <Hixie> (these pages are all just different views on the same document i edit)
  225. # [22:59] <Hixie> (personally i prefer the whatwg one because it has nicer styles and has some scripted aids, but it's all the same content)
  226. # [23:04] <nslater> Hixie: looks good to me
  227. # [23:04] <Hixie> cool
  228. # [23:04] <Hixie> thanks
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  231. # [23:12] * GPHemsley is not under any impression that "MIME type" is an obsolete term
  232. # [23:14] <nslater> GPHemsley: it's not obsolete, but it is (or was originally) specific to email, it's use as co-opted by WebArch has largely been replaced with "Internet media type"
  233. # [23:14] <GPHemsley> I don't think I've ever heard that term before this conversation
  234. # [23:15] <nslater> well, you learn something new every day! ;)
  235. # [23:16] <GPHemsley> :P
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The end :)