/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-07-20 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 20 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:14] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-201-53.bredband.comhem.se)
  4. # [00:14] * Joins: taf2_ (n=taf2@98.218.77.43)
  5. # [00:16] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  6. # [00:27] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  7. # [00:32] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  8. # [00:50] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  9. # [00:51] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  10. # [00:51] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  11. # [01:12] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  12. # [01:19] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  13. # [01:26] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@204.14.154.228)
  14. # [01:26] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@204.14.154.228) (Remote closed the connection)
  15. # [01:32] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@203-217-69-213.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  16. # [01:53] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  17. # [01:54] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  18. # [01:54] * Quits: remy (n=remyshar@remysharp.plus.com) ("Gotta shoot - "peeyaow"")
  19. # [02:00] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  20. # [02:08] * Joins: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@c-98-247-143-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  21. # [02:21] * Quits: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-114-136.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  22. # [02:22] * Joins: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@p5B016F77.dip.t-dialin.net)
  23. # [02:24] * Joins: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-114-136.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  24. # [02:26] * Joins: erikvvold (n=erikvvol@96.49.192.204)
  25. # [02:31] * Quits: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B0159E8.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  26. # [02:35] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  27. # [02:36] * Joins: dave_levin__ (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  28. # [02:41] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  29. # [02:42] * dave_levin__ is now known as dave_levin
  30. # [02:53] * Quits: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  31. # [03:27] * Quits: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@c-98-247-143-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  32. # [03:45] * Joins: webesayz (n=lists@19.36.121.70.cfl.res.rr.com)
  33. # [03:45] <webesayz> Hello
  34. # [03:46] * webesayz is now known as amites1
  35. # [03:47] <amites1> anyone here work with the python version of html5lib?? I'm working on debugging an error with processSpaceCharacters and would appreciate any advice
  36. # [03:48] <Lachy> amites1, jgraham and annevk do, but they're not here at this time of night.
  37. # [03:49] <Lachy> amites1, gsnedders|work or Philip` too may be able to help though
  38. # [03:51] <amites1> doesn't seem like any of them are on right now
  39. # [03:52] <amites1> I appreciate your looking out
  40. # [03:52] <Lachy> amites1, they'll most likely be here within about 5 or 6 hours when they wake up
  41. # [03:53] <amites1> *Grin* if I don't have it figured out by then
  42. # [03:53] <amites1> changed servers and upgraded a couple things, everything but PDF generation went smooth
  43. # [04:24] * Quits: taf2_ (n=taf2@98.218.77.43)
  44. # [04:24] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  45. # [04:28] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  46. # [04:54] * takkaria giggles a bit at the WAI procedure thread
  47. # [05:08] * Quits: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@p5B016F77.dip.t-dialin.net) ("?Q")
  48. # [05:11] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  49. # [05:21] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  50. # [05:22] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  51. # [05:25] * Joins: webesayz (n=lists@19.36.121.70.cfl.res.rr.com)
  52. # [05:31] * Quits: amites1 (n=lists@19.36.121.70.cfl.res.rr.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  53. # [05:45] <Hixie> does python have the equivalent of the C-like ?: operator?
  54. # [05:50] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  55. # [06:02] * Quits: webesayz (n=lists@19.36.121.70.cfl.res.rr.com)
  56. # [06:02] * Joins: amites1 (n=lists@19.36.121.70.cfl.res.rr.com)
  57. # [06:02] <gavin_> Hixie: http://marc-abramowitz.com/archives/2008/05/18/python-ternary-operator/
  58. # [06:07] <Hixie> thanks!
  59. # [06:23] * Quits: ray (i=ray@ipv6.the.ug) ("Changing server")
  60. # [06:23] * Joins: ray (i=ray@drong.notacat.org)
  61. # [06:30] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  62. # [07:13] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) ("leaving")
  63. # [07:13] * Joins: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  64. # [07:16] * Quits: roc (n=roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  65. # [07:37] * Joins: jchris (n=jchris@couchdb/developer/jchris)
  66. # [07:37] * Quits: jchris (n=jchris@couchdb/developer/jchris)
  67. # [07:40] * Joins: macinjosh (n=Adium@c-67-190-101-115.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  68. # [07:41] * Parts: macinjosh (n=Adium@c-67-190-101-115.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  69. # [07:42] * Joins: macinjosh (n=Adium@c-67-190-101-115.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  70. # [07:43] * Parts: macinjosh (n=Adium@c-67-190-101-115.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  71. # [07:48] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p2024-ipbf6410marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  72. # [07:50] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-128-252.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  73. # [07:50] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-193-66.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  74. # [08:14] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  75. # [08:36] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  76. # [08:41] * Quits: amites1 (n=lists@19.36.121.70.cfl.res.rr.com)
  77. # [08:47] * Joins: jchris (n=jchris@couchdb/developer/jchris)
  78. # [08:55] * Joins: pesla (n=retep@80.101.187.43)
  79. # [09:01] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@203-217-69-213.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  80. # [09:05] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  81. # [09:09] * Quits: jchris (n=jchris@couchdb/developer/jchris)
  82. # [09:31] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-128-252.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  83. # [09:35] * Joins: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  84. # [09:36] <Lachy> I can't see what exactly in the proposed procedure that we're not doing, beyond the fact that we haven't yet reached a mutually agreeable solution
  85. # [09:37] <Lachy> and that won't happen as long as the WAI PFWG continues to do nothing but push for one specific solution, without accepting or working with any alternatives
  86. # [09:38] * Joins: kristallpirat (n=kristall@c-base/crew/kristall)
  87. # [09:59] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p2024-ipbf6410marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  88. # [10:02] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  89. # [10:03] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@p2101-ipbf204hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  90. # [10:03] * Joins: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@p4149-ipbf2803hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp)
  91. # [10:07] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  92. # [10:14] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  93. # [10:36] <gsnedders|work> Lachy: I'm probably not a good person to speak to about html5lib for future reference
  94. # [10:47] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  95. # [11:00] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@203-217-69-213.dyn.iinet.net.au) (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  96. # [11:00] * Quits: gsnedders|work (n=gsnedder@88.131.66.80) (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  97. # [11:00] * Quits: theanxy (n=wzajac@student.agh.edu.pl) (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  98. # [11:01] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@203-217-69-213.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  99. # [11:01] * Joins: gsnedders|work (n=gsnedder@88.131.66.80)
  100. # [11:01] * Joins: theanxy (n=wzajac@student.agh.edu.pl)
  101. # [11:07] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  102. # [11:10] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  103. # [11:10] * Joins: svl (n=me@86.87.68.167)
  104. # [11:12] * Parts: chrismat (n=chris@isvedel.math.uu.se) ("Leaving")
  105. # [11:17] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-fcabc4f435fcdca3)
  106. # [11:38] <roc> I can't stand everyone in public_html being politely dishonest to one another
  107. # [11:46] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-62-12.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  108. # [11:54] <Hixie> i'm trying to be politely honest
  109. # [11:55] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  110. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> Hixie: sometimes it's not possible to be both polite and honest at the same time
  111. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> and you need to make a choice
  112. # [11:59] <Hixie> i usually shut up in those cases
  113. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> me too
  114. # [12:05] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p2024-ipbf6410marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  115. # [12:10] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  116. # [12:27] * Joins: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-97-242.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  117. # [12:28] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-62-12.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Nick collision from services.)
  118. # [12:28] * billyjackass is now known as MikeSmith
  119. # [12:28] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-ae16d79178b0ed7b)
  120. # [12:32] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  121. # [12:42] <othermaciej> roc: I'm considering being honestly impolite
  122. # [12:42] <othermaciej> but it seems like it would be a waste of time and energy in this case
  123. # [12:45] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B0165EE.dip.t-dialin.net)
  124. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I recommend you going with your instincts there.
  125. # [12:47] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: sometimes being honestly impolite is useful
  126. # [12:48] <roc> it doesn't work too well online unfortunately
  127. # [12:50] <Lachy> othermaciej, if you were to be honestly impolite on the mailing list, what would you say?
  128. # [12:50] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  129. # [12:50] <Lachy> or rather, what point would you want to make?
  130. # [12:50] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
  131. # [12:51] <othermaciej> Lachy, given the people who love to read our logs and send creepy emails about them, that would amount to a cowardly way to post to the list
  132. # [12:51] <Philip`> You could say it in our secret IRC channel instead
  133. # [12:51] <Lachy> --> #whatwg-cabal
  134. # [12:52] <othermaciej> Philip`: how do you know I haven't?
  135. # [12:52] <Lachy> shh, don't tell anyone!
  136. # [12:55] <Hixie> if you guys do set up a secret cabal list could you please log it so that i can find your discussions when i do google searches for relevant discussion?
  137. # [12:57] <othermaciej> can't you use Google's abusive monopolistic control of the internet to just log all the traffic anyway?
  138. # [12:58] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-ae16d79178b0ed7b) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  139. # [12:59] <Philip`> We could set up the list on Google Wave, so Hixie can use the secret wiretap backdoor to track and analyse the discussions
  140. # [13:02] <Lachy> we need a way to allow robots to index the content, but to keep it secret, a way to block unwanted humans from heading it.
  141. # [13:02] <Lachy> and we don't yet have a Human Exclusions Protocol (humans.txt)
  142. # [13:02] <Hixie> i'm going to go to bed before your conspiracy theories get me in trouble
  143. # [13:02] <Hixie> nn :-)
  144. # [13:05] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  145. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> Lachy: you need to run with that Human Exclusion Protocol idea. do an IETF Internet draft
  146. # [13:07] <Lachy> MikeSmith, I was just thinking about an April Fools RFC for that :-)
  147. # [13:07] <dbaron> Would it apply if Koko the Gorilla starts using a Web browser?
  148. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> heh
  149. # [13:09] <Lachy> Human-Agent: Mike*
  150. # [13:09] <Lachy> Disallow: /
  151. # [13:09] <gsnedders|work> MikeSmith: Quick, change to billyjackass!
  152. # [13:14] * Quits: wakaba (n=wakaba@104.225.100.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) ("Leaving...")
  153. # [13:19] <othermaciej> hmm, reading some blog posts for the past few weeks it seems like a remarkable number of people really had faith in XHMTML2
  154. # [13:20] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@104.225.100.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  155. # [13:27] <mookid> is it going to be possible for javascript to render other formats like PDF in html5?
  156. # [13:28] <gsnedders|work> mookid: I guess the main issue with that is lack of a binary data type
  157. # [13:28] <mookid> hmm
  158. # [13:28] <mookid> ok
  159. # [13:28] <mookid> frustrating because the only option right now is to popup a new window
  160. # [13:28] <gsnedders|work> mookid: Otherwise, I don't think there's anything stopping you (from converting to either HTML/SVG elements, or rendering onto a canvas)
  161. # [13:28] <mookid> eww that's pretty gnarly
  162. # [13:28] <gsnedders|work> mookid: Not just use object or something?
  163. # [13:29] <gsnedders|work> mookid: Well, how else would you render it with Javascript?
  164. # [13:29] <gsnedders|work> mookid: Am I missing what you meant?
  165. # [13:29] <mookid> situation I'm in - if I make XMLHttpRequest to a pdf document
  166. # [13:29] <mookid> how do I get that rendered?
  167. # [13:30] <gsnedders|work> Convert it to a data URI and set an object's data to it?
  168. # [13:30] <gsnedders|work> Why not just set the object's data to the URL you request with XHR?
  169. # [13:31] <mookid> cos it's got custom headers :P
  170. # [13:31] <gsnedders|work> I was guessing that
  171. # [13:31] <mookid> there is one way that I guess would work - which is to render a flash app and pass the data into that
  172. # [13:31] <gsnedders|work> If it contains any null bytes, be warned that Opera at least truncates responseText at that
  173. # [13:32] <gsnedders|work> Converting it to a data URI should work, though
  174. # [13:32] <mookid> yeah XMLHttpRequest is pretty bad
  175. # [13:32] <mookid> are there any plans to update/fix that?
  176. # [13:32] <mookid> can we at least drop the XML infront of it?
  177. # [13:33] <gsnedders|work> The null issue? I guess the answer is I can't comment on that.
  178. # [13:33] <gsnedders|work> We can't really drop the XML in the name because thousands of sites rely upon it being there
  179. # [13:33] <gsnedders|work> Http is equally misleading, as you can make FTP requests too in theory
  180. # [13:33] <gsnedders|work> (or any other scheme)
  181. # [13:33] <mookid> can't you just change it and make the old name a pointer?
  182. # [13:33] <gsnedders|work> Yes, but is it worthwhile changing that?
  183. # [13:34] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  184. # [13:34] <mookid> well I think it can be improved anyway
  185. # [13:34] <mookid> the spec could be more vigorous wrt the HTTP spec
  186. # [13:35] <gsnedders|work> We're gonna have to keep backwards compat with XHR forever, more or less, so adding an alias doesn't help.
  187. # [13:35] <gsnedders|work> Vigorous in what way?
  188. # [13:35] <mookid> 3xx forwards are very bad right now in XHR
  189. # [13:35] <mookid> + the object could be structured in a more intuitive fashion
  190. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> http://cloudofdata.com/2009/07/does-linked-data-need-rdf/
  191. # [13:36] <mookid> nah it doesnt
  192. # [13:36] <mookid> :P
  193. # [13:36] <gsnedders|work> mookid: That can't really be changed for backwards compat. reasons
  194. # [13:36] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  195. # [13:36] <mookid> gsnedders|work: ok so is there room to create a new client library?
  196. # [13:37] <gsnedders|work> mookid: I doubt it'll be added at a browser level (on grounds that XHR already exists)
  197. # [13:38] <gsnedders|work> mookid: What's your issue with redirects?
  198. # [13:38] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  199. # [13:38] <mookid> well they're inconsistent and the object makes it very hard to get a handle on what's actually going on
  200. # [13:38] <mookid> the implementations are inconsistent
  201. # [13:39] <gsnedders|work> That's an implementation issue, and all are moving towards the current WD
  202. # [13:39] <gsnedders|work> Actually, I expect the current ED
  203. # [13:40] <mookid> maybe I'm not up enough on XHR but redirects follows are automated for some 3xx codes right?
  204. # [13:40] <gsnedders|work> For "HTTP redirects"
  205. # [13:44] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-193-66.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  206. # [13:44] <mookid> scariest idea ever
  207. # [13:45] <mookid> give your javascript sandbox namespaces a URI
  208. # [13:45] <mookid> then I can give an object a data URI
  209. # [13:47] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-6ae0634d7672a151)
  210. # [13:47] <mookid> so essentially what you're saying is I can't use XHR response data to render a PDF?
  211. # [13:47] <gsnedders|work> huh?
  212. # [13:48] <mookid> nvm =)
  213. # [13:48] <mookid> having an accept header attribute would make my life a lot easier.. ;D
  214. # [13:49] <gsnedders|work> Take the responseText, encode as base64, then add before that data:application/pdf;base64,
  215. # [13:49] <gsnedders|work> How does that not work?
  216. # [13:49] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  217. # [13:49] <mookid> what do you do with that from there though?
  218. # [13:50] <mookid> I can't render it or make it available to save to disk in a browser sandbox
  219. # [13:50] <gsnedders|work> var obj = document.createElement("object"); obj.data = foobar;
  220. # [13:50] <gsnedders|work> Then add the obj and if there is a PDF plugin installed, it'll render.
  221. # [13:50] <gsnedders|work> *add the obj to the tree somewhere
  222. # [13:50] <mookid> oh right hmm lol
  223. # [13:51] <mookid> I'm sure I read somewhere you can't do that
  224. # [13:51] <mookid> is that new?
  225. # [13:52] <gsnedders|work> No, but I'm pretty certain that should work
  226. # [13:52] <gsnedders|work> If it doesn't, you've hit browser bugs
  227. # [13:52] <mookid> sound, cheers
  228. # [13:52] <gsnedders|work> There may be some other way that I haven't thought off, though.
  229. # [13:52] <gsnedders|work> Do PDFs contain null bytes often?
  230. # [13:53] <mookid> haven't looked into that yet
  231. # [13:53] <gsnedders|work> As I say, any containing null bytes will fail in Opera
  232. # [13:53] * Joins: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@p5B0147DA.dip.t-dialin.net)
  233. # [13:54] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  234. # [13:54] <mookid> ok bear with me here - if the browser has no plugin installed - there's no way to provide a save to disk dialogue box?
  235. # [13:55] * Joins: T-- (n=ttepas--@p5B01545B.dip.t-dialin.net)
  236. # [13:59] <mookid> MikeSmith: was that link for me?
  237. # [14:02] <gsnedders|work> mookid: What the browser does in that case is implementation dependant behaviour.
  238. # [14:02] <gsnedders|work> mookid: But there's no way to force a browser to provide a save dialogue without running in a privileged state
  239. # [14:03] * Quits: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B0165EE.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  240. # [14:03] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B015B03.dip.t-dialin.net)
  241. # [14:03] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-9e8c37fa2bb2ea78)
  242. # [14:16] * Quits: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@p5B0147DA.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  243. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> mookid: what link?
  244. # [14:21] <mookid> the RDF one
  245. # [14:22] <mookid> RDF vs. LinkedData
  246. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> nope
  247. # [14:22] <mookid> k
  248. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> that was for all us, for our collective edification
  249. # [14:22] <mookid> sweet
  250. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> mookid: you have an interest in linked data?
  251. # [14:22] <mookid> Hmmm - I'd like to say yes
  252. # [14:22] <mookid> but honestly I'm not realy qualified to say that
  253. # [14:23] <mookid> I know REST and I'm working on a layered platform
  254. # [14:23] <mookid> but I'm not using RDF
  255. # [14:23] <mookid> so that article sounds good to me
  256. # [14:23] * Quits: T-- (n=ttepas--@p5B01545B.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  257. # [14:23] <mookid> granted.. RDF seems like a pretty nice tool for 'fractal' data graphs
  258. # [14:24] <mookid> it's just more cost to my project right now
  259. # [14:24] <mookid> I'm all set up to introduce an additional RDF layer whenever I need :)
  260. # [14:24] <mookid> thanks to URI's and content negotiation
  261. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> sometimes it costs more to add stuff later
  262. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> I don't actually know much about RDF beyond the very basics
  263. # [14:25] * gsnedders|work still isn't sure using URIs to identify things is entirely sensible
  264. # [14:25] <gsnedders|work> I mean, what URI do I use for my grandmother?
  265. # [14:25] <mookid> ...
  266. # [14:26] <mookid> there's a joke there somwhere
  267. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> btw, a note while I'm thinking about it: If somebody ever does do XML5, it should relax the restriction that comments can't contain "--"
  268. # [14:26] * gsnedders|work still thinks XML5 should be a strict subset of XML 1.0 4th edition
  269. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> along with all other "backwards compatible with SGML" constraints
  270. # [14:27] <mookid> gsnedders|work: it's all to do with how you actually define a Resource
  271. # [14:27] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  272. # [14:27] * MikeSmith is reminded that he meant to open a bug about the phrase "backwards compatible" in the spec intro
  273. # [14:28] <mookid> MikeSmith: if I wanted to introduce RDF to my system I'd only have to add another layer of RDF representations ontop of my existing URIs
  274. # [14:29] <mookid> and I can do that easily with Accept/Content-Type headers
  275. # [14:29] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: What do you mean by "strict subset"? (All well-formed XML1 documents must parse to the same DOM when using the XML5 algorithm? That sounds more like a superset to me)
  276. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> can a Resource just be a particular stream of data transmitted over TCP/IP?
  277. # [14:29] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: I mean in terms of document conformance.
  278. # [14:30] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: But yes, the parsing should be a superset, and conforming a subset
  279. # [14:30] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: So all conforming XML5 documents should also be conforming XML1 documents, but not the other way around?
  280. # [14:30] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: Yeah.
  281. # [14:30] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: Because DOCTYPE is evil.
  282. # [14:30] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Okay, makes sense
  283. # [14:31] <mookid> gsnedders|work: why do you say that?
  284. # [14:31] <Philip`> I suppose my main complaint with XML is not that draconian error handling is bad, but that it's too complex to follow the rules in practice
  285. # [14:32] <mookid> MikeSmith: technically, yes - if you were logging TCP/IP traffic you could give each packet a URI
  286. # [14:32] <mookid> but the actual data trasmitted is a representation
  287. # [14:33] <Philip`> e.g. properly-nested tags and quoted attributes are pretty easy, and the pain is in the complex character requirements and the forbidden sequences like "]]>" and "--"
  288. # [14:33] <Philip`> (and in doctypes)
  289. # [14:34] <mookid> could you use JSON?
  290. # [14:34] * gsnedders|work notes XHTML, Atom, and RSS are not JSON, so for most people using XML the answer is no.\
  291. # [14:35] <mookid> I mean use JSON for HTML5
  292. # [14:35] <gsnedders|work> If you define a JSON serialization of a DOM, sure.
  293. # [14:35] <mookid> well isn't it better suited than XML?~
  294. # [14:36] <mookid> I thought there's an issue with XML in terms of what you can actually assume about the data from the order/tag heirarchy
  295. # [14:37] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-170-249-152.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  296. # [14:37] <mookid> there must be most of that work already done within apps like firebug..?
  297. # [14:38] <Philip`> Someone should modify something like http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/sexp.html to work with JSON
  298. # [14:38] <mookid> :)
  299. # [14:38] <mookid> Kris Zyp is/was working on JSON-Schema and json references
  300. # [14:39] <mookid> where schema's all linked together and could reference one another /themselves
  301. # [14:39] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@131.246.227.215)
  302. # [14:40] <mookid> I dunno exctly how fruity the DOM is but I would imagine you can break it down quite neatly
  303. # [14:44] * Quits: erikvvold (n=erikvvol@96.49.192.204) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  304. # [14:45] <gsnedders|work> Anyone from Mozilla around?
  305. # [14:45] <gsnedders|work> Or anyone with a clue of how to report a bug in Gecko?
  306. # [14:45] * Joins: erikvvold (n=erikvvol@96.49.192.204)
  307. # [14:45] <gsnedders|work> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/page.cgi?id=broken-website.html says to go through the Help menu, but I don't have a "Report Broken Web Site" in the nightly I have.
  308. # [14:46] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Just use Bugzilla normally, and file a bug with a test case?
  309. # [14:46] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: You aren't allowed to do that nowadays.
  310. # [14:46] <gsnedders|work> Oh well, their problem.
  311. # [14:46] <Philip`> Uh, not allowed to file bugs?
  312. # [14:47] <gsnedders|work> "IMPORTANT: if the problem is with a broken web page, you need to report it a different way."
  313. # [14:47] <gsnedders|work> So seeming you're not.
  314. # [14:48] <Philip`> That sounds like it's meant for bug reports like "I visited Yahoo Mail and it doesn't work"
  315. # [14:49] * gsnedders|work grumbles
  316. # [14:49] <Philip`> and I'd hope you have more detail and a minimised test case and then you could file a proper bug :-)
  317. # [14:49] <gsnedders|work> I'm reporting one of their tests is broken (and so is their behaviour that passes it)
  318. # [14:52] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Then just fill out the bug form and put all the relevant details in it
  319. # [14:55] * gsnedders|work finds through one really obscure bit of the spec that the tests are right, and he is wrong.
  320. # [15:01] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  321. # [15:03] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  322. # [15:04] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  323. # [15:20] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-170-249-152.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  324. # [15:25] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  325. # [15:26] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p2024-ipbf6410marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  326. # [15:33] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  327. # [15:55] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  328. # [16:07] * Joins: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@p5B014911.dip.t-dialin.net)
  329. # [16:11] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p2180-ipbf411marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  330. # [16:13] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=merten@vp-c-68.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  331. # [16:20] * Joins: coopy (n=pernilss@rrcs-24-153-219-82.sw.biz.rr.com)
  332. # [16:21] * Joins: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@c-98-247-143-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  333. # [16:27] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  334. # [16:31] * Quits: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B015B03.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  335. # [16:34] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip170.unival.com)
  336. # [16:37] * Parts: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  337. # [16:57] * Quits: coopy (n=pernilss@rrcs-24-153-219-82.sw.biz.rr.com)
  338. # [17:03] * Quits: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-114-136.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  339. # [17:08] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-97-242.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  340. # [17:10] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  341. # [17:16] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  342. # [17:18] * Joins: poe (n=poe@unaffiliated/xerox)
  343. # [17:31] * Quits: kristallpirat (n=kristall@c-base/crew/kristall) ("Wünsche weiterhin guten Flug")
  344. # [17:32] * Joins: jchris (n=jchris@couchdb/developer/jchris)
  345. # [17:37] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  346. # [17:41] * Joins: hallvors (n=hallvord@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  347. # [17:41] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-d24c8875a614b885)
  348. # [17:43] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@17.226.23.106)
  349. # [17:44] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  350. # [17:51] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@17.226.23.106)
  351. # [18:08] * Joins: mat_t_ (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-005ea9d31edd6f6b)
  352. # [18:08] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-fcabc4f435fcdca3) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  353. # [18:08] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=merten@vp-c-68.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  354. # [18:10] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  355. # [18:11] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@80.101.187.43) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  356. # [18:12] <hallvors> why doesn't the spec allow multi-letter accesskey values?
  357. # [18:12] * Joins: ap (n=ap@nat/apple/x-263463b766fddae2)
  358. # [18:20] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-d24c8875a614b885)
  359. # [18:21] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-4e95eb064d31362b)
  360. # [18:21] * Quits: jchris (n=jchris@couchdb/developer/jchris)
  361. # [18:23] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  362. # [18:23] * Quits: mat_t_ (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-005ea9d31edd6f6b) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  363. # [18:24] * Joins: adactio (n=adactio@host86-132-125-223.range86-132.btcentralplus.com)
  364. # [18:40] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  365. # [18:43] * Joins: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  366. # [18:43] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1) (Client Quit)
  367. # [18:43] * dave_levin_ is now known as dave_levin
  368. # [18:50] * Quits: sebmarkbage (n=miranda@h-6-72.A146.priv.bahnhof.se) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  369. # [18:52] * Joins: heycam` (n=cam@124-168-121-49.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  370. # [18:52] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-e2babba71e7a4f56)
  371. # [18:56] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-160-174.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  372. # [18:58] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s5590d015.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  373. # [19:02] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@203-217-69-213.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  374. # [19:03] * Quits: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  375. # [19:04] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  376. # [19:13] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p2180-ipbf411marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  377. # [19:21] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.161)
  378. # [19:24] * Quits: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@c-98-247-143-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  379. # [19:24] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-41327bd1378176b3)
  380. # [19:30] * Parts: adactio (n=adactio@host86-132-125-223.range86-132.btcentralplus.com)
  381. # [19:30] * Joins: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@c-98-247-143-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  382. # [19:32] * Joins: sebmarkbage (n=miranda@h-6-72.A146.priv.bahnhof.se)
  383. # [19:32] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-193-191.bredband.comhem.se)
  384. # [19:39] * Joins: T-- (n=ttepas--@p5B014912.dip.t-dialin.net)
  385. # [19:41] * Quits: svl (n=me@86.87.68.167) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  386. # [19:44] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  387. # [19:45] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B0178AE.dip.t-dialin.net)
  388. # [19:47] * Joins: franksalim (n=frank@216.239.45.19)
  389. # [19:49] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.117.77.99.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  390. # [19:51] * Quits: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@p5B014911.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  391. # [19:51] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@131.246.227.215) ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.6a1pre/20090720032759]")
  392. # [19:52] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Zadff.z.pppool.de)
  393. # [19:52] * Quits: franksalim (n=frank@216.239.45.19) ("Leaving")
  394. # [19:53] * Quits: T-- (n=ttepas--@p5B014912.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  395. # [19:55] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  396. # [19:57] * archtech is now known as archtec2
  397. # [19:59] * Joins: jorlow (n=jorlow@nat/google/x-95e4095e8c939143)
  398. # [20:05] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-4e95eb064d31362b) (Remote closed the connection)
  399. # [20:09] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-6ae0634d7672a151) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  400. # [20:09] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de)
  401. # [20:12] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de) (Client Quit)
  402. # [20:22] * Quits: hallvors (n=hallvord@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  403. # [20:31] * Joins: yshin (n=yshin@72.14.227.1)
  404. # [20:36] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-29b95fe8a0cde4dc)
  405. # [20:54] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-170-249-152.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  406. # [21:02] * Quits: archtec2 (n=stanv@83.228.56.37) (No route to host)
  407. # [21:25] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  408. # [21:33] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  409. # [21:40] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  410. # [21:42] * Quits: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-9e8c37fa2bb2ea78) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  411. # [21:42] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-6ed601c86fd88224)
  412. # [21:44] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-160-174.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  413. # [21:48] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  414. # [22:01] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  415. # [22:04] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-193-66.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  416. # [22:05] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-e2babba71e7a4f56)
  417. # [22:07] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  418. # [22:09] * Quits: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-6ed601c86fd88224) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  419. # [22:11] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Zadff.z.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  420. # [22:14] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-4eb2ba0d447a5e20)
  421. # [22:22] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-193-66.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  422. # [22:23] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  423. # [22:27] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  424. # [22:35] * Joins: roc (n=roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  425. # [22:36] <Darxus> I'm having a surprisingly difficult time finding XHTML 1.0 and HTML 5 test suites.
  426. # [22:39] <takkaria> what would an XHTML1 test suite test?
  427. # [22:39] <jcranmer> HTML 3.2, obviously
  428. # [22:40] <takkaria> I mean, I wasn't aware there were many testable things in XHTML1
  429. # [22:45] * Joins: taf2_ (n=taf2@38.99.201.242)
  430. # [22:47] <Philip`> takkaria: I assume it normatively includes HTML4, so you could test all of HTML4's conformance requirements
  431. # [22:47] <takkaria> I was just trying to find thoser but it looks like w3.org is having problems
  432. # [22:48] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
  433. # [22:50] * aroben|afk is now known as aroben
  434. # [22:51] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-8-69.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  435. # [22:52] <Darxus> takkaria: Browser conformance.
  436. # [22:56] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  437. # [22:58] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
  438. # [23:01] <Darxus> There seems to be no good statistics on how well browsers support XHTML 1.0, and as that is the last standard to support text/html, and IE doesn't support application/xhtml+xml, and it was released 9 years ago, I think that it qualifies as the most important current standard. And I think there should be better browser support statistics on current standards.
  439. # [23:02] <jcranmer> XHTML is predominantly treated as HTML 4.0-serialized-as-XML
  440. # [23:02] <jcranmer> (from my experience)
  441. # [23:03] * Quits: taf2_ (n=taf2@38.99.201.242)
  442. # [23:04] <Darxus> jcranmer: So you would expect browser conformance to be the same between HTML4 and XHTML 1.0?
  443. # [23:08] <Lachy> Darxus, XHTML as text/html is, as far as the browser is concerned, simply HTML.
  444. # [23:09] <Darxus> Lachy: Thank you.
  445. # [23:12] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-170-249-152.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  446. # [23:12] * Quits: sbublava (n=stephan@77.117.77.99.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  447. # [23:19] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.150)
  448. # [23:19] * aroben|afk is now known as aroben
  449. # [23:23] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  450. # [23:25] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-8-69.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  451. # [23:29] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-8-69.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  452. # [23:30] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  453. # [23:44] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@user-0ce2gjn.cable.mindspring.com)
  454. # [23:48] * Joins: sylvaing (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-ce8ef7f84d3ec5b9)
  455. # [23:49] * Quits: sylvaing (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-ce8ef7f84d3ec5b9) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  456. # [23:52] * Quits: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@user-0ce2gjn.cable.mindspring.com)
  457. # [23:53] * Joins: taf2_ (n=taf2@98.218.77.43)
  458. # [23:57] * Joins: sylvaing (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-97472d3acb627a98)
  459. # [23:59] * Quits: sylvaing (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-97472d3acb627a98) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  460. # Session Close: Tue Jul 21 00:00:00 2009

The end :)