/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-07-22 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 22 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:06] * Quits: o2T7 (n=saint@212.225.192.98) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  4. # [00:06] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  5. # [00:06] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  6. # [00:07] * Parts: jcarbaugh (n=jcarbaug@enki.sunlightfoundation.com)
  7. # [00:09] <Philip`> Darxus: It seemed a useful answer, since it was demonstrating that it is indeed possible for a schema language to specify all the rules required for validation
  8. # [00:09] <Philip`> Then you just have to modify it a bit and pick some tradeoffs between schema language complexity and schema complexity and flexibility etc
  9. # [00:10] * Joins: cying_ (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  10. # [00:11] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@p1005-ipbf216hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp) (Connection timed out)
  11. # [00:13] <Darxus> Philip`: Your answer is clearly correct. However, as I said, not useful.
  12. # [00:13] <inimino> schema definition formalisms are arbitrary, you can write one that does anything you like
  13. # [00:14] <inimino> if you don't like the answer, perhaps you should reconsider the question :-)
  14. # [00:14] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-75-61-130-107.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  15. # [00:17] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  16. # [00:19] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@p4149-ipbf2803hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  17. # [00:19] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-75-61-130-107.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  18. # [00:25] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  19. # [00:25] * cying_ is now known as cying
  20. # [00:32] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-193-142.bredband.comhem.se)
  21. # [00:34] * Joins: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@189.84-49-121.nextgentel.com)
  22. # [00:36] * Quits: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@189.84-49-121.nextgentel.com) (Client Quit)
  23. # [00:37] * Joins: jorlow_ (n=jorlow@nat/google/x-64f086d4ad055545)
  24. # [00:38] * Joins: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@189.84-49-121.nextgentel.com)
  25. # [00:40] * Joins: jennb (n=jennb@72.14.227.1)
  26. # [00:41] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-193-142.bredband.comhem.se)
  27. # [00:45] * Joins: caden (n=Caden@c-98-227-95-135.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
  28. # [00:46] <caden> question on canvas: why does settransform clear my canvas bitmap? can i clear the transform matrix without clearing the bitmap
  29. # [00:50] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  30. # [00:52] * Quits: jorlow (n=jorlow@nat/google/x-e1ef13c2fbda77c1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  31. # [00:58] * Joins: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  32. # [01:02] * Quits: jorlow_ (n=jorlow@nat/google/x-64f086d4ad055545)
  33. # [01:05] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  34. # [01:05] <Philip`> caden: It shouldn't do that
  35. # [01:06] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  36. # [01:07] <caden> thanks Philip
  37. # [01:07] <caden> i thought that that was my problem, but i don't really need to reset the transform matrix
  38. # [01:08] <Philip`> caden: Is there some browser in which it does clear the bitmap?
  39. # [01:08] <caden> it turned out i didn't put style position relative in the element
  40. # [01:08] <caden> i was doing some code from this sample drawing program http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/html5-canvas-painting/ and it was always drawing the line about 200 pixesl too low
  41. # [01:09] <caden> i'm using iceweasel-- it's firefox 3.0 compliant, not 3.5 yet
  42. # [01:09] <caden> (the debian firefox)
  43. # [01:10] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  44. # [01:10] <caden> i tried using setTransform and the identity matrix to see if there was a transpose setting from all the previous draws i did
  45. # [01:10] <caden> but that wasn't it
  46. # [01:10] <caden> but it did clear the graph i had drawn on the canvas
  47. # [01:16] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  48. # [01:17] * Joins: jorlow (n=jorlow@nat/google/x-719ed7fa52dc6140)
  49. # [01:19] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@p1005-ipbf216hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp)
  50. # [01:20] * Quits: jorlow (n=jorlow@nat/google/x-719ed7fa52dc6140) (Client Quit)
  51. # [01:21] * Quits: kristallpirat (n=kristall@c-base/crew/kristall) ("Wünsche weiterhin guten Flug")
  52. # [01:33] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@124-168-121-49.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  53. # [01:34] * Joins: jorlow (n=jorlow@nat/google/x-d880c37e7a08ed66)
  54. # [01:34] * johnholdun is now known as johnholdun|afk|o
  55. # [01:34] * johnholdun|afk|o is now known as johnholdun
  56. # [01:34] * Parts: johnholdun (n=johnhold@76.89.118.208)
  57. # [01:38] * Quits: jorlow (n=jorlow@nat/google/x-d880c37e7a08ed66) (Client Quit)
  58. # [01:48] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  59. # [01:48] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  60. # [01:53] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-214-50-234.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  61. # [02:10] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@p1005-ipbf216hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  62. # [02:16] * Quits: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@189.84-49-121.nextgentel.com)
  63. # [02:16] * Joins: taf2_ (n=taf2@98.218.77.43)
  64. # [02:39] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  65. # [02:46] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  66. # [02:58] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  67. # [02:59] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=Snak@216.239.45.19) ("The computer fell asleep")
  68. # [03:00] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  69. # [03:05] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  70. # [03:05] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  71. # [03:08] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  72. # [03:09] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-019e0318eb035dc4)
  73. # [03:09] * Quits: jennb (n=jennb@72.14.227.1)
  74. # [03:16] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  75. # [03:17] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Client Quit)
  76. # [03:17] * Quits: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-ad8123d091046af6) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  77. # [03:17] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  78. # [03:21] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  79. # [03:22] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  80. # [03:26] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  81. # [03:27] * Joins: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  82. # [03:27] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  83. # [03:28] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  84. # [03:33] * Joins: tantekc (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  85. # [03:34] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  86. # [03:34] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  87. # [03:37] * Quits: yshin (n=yshin@72.14.227.1)
  88. # [03:46] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  89. # [03:50] * Quits: o2T7_ (n=saint@212.225.192.98) ("Lost terminal")
  90. # [03:53] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  91. # [03:55] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81)
  92. # [03:59] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-193-142.bredband.comhem.se)
  93. # [04:08] * Quits: tantekc (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  94. # [04:08] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-246-160.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  95. # [04:09] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-246-160.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  96. # [04:20] * Joins: jorlow (n=jorlow@67.218.102.217)
  97. # [04:20] * Joins: jorlow_ (n=jorlow@72.14.224.1)
  98. # [04:22] * Quits: jorlow_ (n=jorlow@72.14.224.1) (Client Quit)
  99. # [04:27] <Darxus> Ack, the link to explain the "this is a 'should' and not a 'must' because it has proven to be impossible" doesn't explain it!
  100. # [04:29] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  101. # [04:34] <Darxus> inimino: I agree that Philip`'s answer was a valid answer to my question, and that I did not ask the right question. However, that does not change the fact that Philip`'s answer was not useful.
  102. # [04:39] <inimino> Darxus: it might have been useful to you, had it caused you to reconsider the question
  103. # [04:39] <inimino> (Usefulness is subjective.)
  104. # [04:40] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-004cc63807144c71) ("over and out")
  105. # [04:41] * Quits: jorlow (n=jorlow@67.218.102.217) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  106. # [04:52] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  107. # [05:02] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  108. # [05:07] <MikeSmith> are there any major browsers that actually put processing instructions from text/html content into the DOM?
  109. # [05:07] <MikeSmith> are processing instructiong in the HTML DOM even defined?
  110. # [05:40] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  111. # [05:41] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  112. # [05:44] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128)
  113. # [05:46] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  114. # [05:47] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda) (Client Quit)
  115. # [05:54] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@c-76-21-1-12.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  116. # [05:56] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128)
  117. # [06:06] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  118. # [06:09] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-246-160.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  119. # [06:10] * Quits: taf2_ (n=taf2@98.218.77.43)
  120. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> ȯ̭̥͈̭ͪa̲͡f̣̝̜̦̳̼̬͗͊̅ͤ
  121. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> COMBINING SEAGULL BELOW
  122. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> one of the best Japanese noise bands
  123. # [06:31] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128)
  124. # [06:37] * ztatic2000 is now known as erikvold
  125. # [06:57] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@c-76-21-1-12.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  126. # [07:12] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-67-180-197-126.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  127. # [07:17] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@c-24-7-88-142.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  128. # [07:24] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-67-180-197-126.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  129. # [07:27] * Quits: ap (n=ap@173-128-235-158.pools.spcsdns.net)
  130. # [07:27] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
  131. # [07:28] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116) (Remote closed the connection)
  132. # [07:41] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@c-24-7-88-142.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  133. # [07:56] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  134. # [08:02] * Joins: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@p5B017C23.dip.t-dialin.net)
  135. # [08:09] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128)
  136. # [08:10] * Quits: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B016EBB.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  137. # [08:10] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@69.181.42.237)
  138. # [08:23] * Joins: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  139. # [08:25] * Joins: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  140. # [08:46] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-246-160.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  141. # [08:55] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  142. # [09:00] * Quits: Yudai (n=Yudai@p929c7b.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp) ("SIGTERM received; exit")
  143. # [09:00] * Joins: Yudai (n=Yudai@p929c7b.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp)
  144. # [09:11] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  145. # [09:13] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  146. # [09:13] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de)
  147. # [09:20] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-221-193.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  148. # [09:40] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  149. # [09:40] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  150. # [09:41] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  151. # [09:44] * Quits: hsivonen (n=hsivonen@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  152. # [09:44] * Joins: hsivonen (n=hsivonen@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi)
  153. # [09:51] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-193-142.bredband.comhem.se)
  154. # [09:54] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  155. # [10:04] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-221-193.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  156. # [10:07] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-121-49.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  157. # [10:32] * Quits: roc (n=roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  158. # [10:37] * Joins: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@189.84-49-121.nextgentel.com)
  159. # [10:47] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-1ade3dd43832c4b5)
  160. # [10:52] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-218-215.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  161. # [10:52] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-218-215.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  162. # [10:59] * Joins: hallvors (n=hallvord@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  163. # [10:59] <hallvors> why doesn't the spec allow multi-letter accesskey values?
  164. # [11:02] <Philip`> hallvors: "For future extensibility, I have also required tokens with more than one character to be ignored for now. We can later add identifiers for various purposes, e.g. accesskey="help" to mean that the user agent's default "help" key should be used, whatever that is."
  165. # [11:02] <Philip`> (http://www.mail-archive.com/whatwg@lists.whatwg.org/msg14673.html)
  166. # [11:03] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  167. # [11:07] * Joins: mstange_ (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de)
  168. # [11:08] * Joins: poe (n=poe@unaffiliated/xerox)
  169. # [11:09] <hallvors> Thanks, Philip`. Rules out using @accesskey for GMail-type "gi" shortcuts, unfortunately. Is that a stronger or weaker use case? Or what about <a accesskey="F1"> - should we go there?
  170. # [11:10] <Philip`> Might want to send feedback to the list - everyone's probably asleep in here :-)
  171. # [11:15] <hallvors> sure. tried to ask the same question on IRC two days ago but I guess that was at the wrong time too :-p
  172. # [11:15] <Lachy> people are usually here at this time of day
  173. # [11:15] <Lachy> maybe they just see you and run
  174. # [11:15] <Lachy> :-)
  175. # [11:16] <hallvors> :-)
  176. # [11:16] <hallvors> perhaps I'll try if public-html is usable for less political issues then.. (though it wouldn't surprise me if someone turned it into a political one)
  177. # [11:16] * hallvors is a scary chatter, apparently
  178. # [11:16] <Lachy> access keys have an impact on accesibility, and so it is very likely to turn into one
  179. # [11:17] <hallvors> does that mean I ought to ask on the whatwg list instead? ;)
  180. # [11:18] <Lachy> no, Chaals prefers that we use public-html
  181. # [11:18] * hallvors thinks politics is a waste of time
  182. # [11:20] <Philip`> You can always post to public-html and then ignore all replies
  183. # [11:22] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  184. # [11:26] <Lachy> why doesn't anyone trim the CC list on that One Vendor, One Veto thread?
  185. # [11:27] <gsnedders|work> Lachy: Because pressing Reply All is simpler
  186. # [11:29] <hallvors> Philip`: I can't make sense of the following quote from the E-mail you linked to: "I have allowed the <command> element to be given an access key, which
  187. # [11:29] <hallvors> allows any scriptable behaviour to be given a keyboard shortcut."
  188. # [11:29] <hallvors> I don't find that in the spec
  189. # [11:30] <hallvors> it looks like the "command" concept is strictly tied to elements (only exposed through element.command properties etc)
  190. # [11:31] <hallvors> ..and I also don't see how the spec makes it possible to do this: "Once a command is defined, other parts of the interface can refer to the same command"
  191. # [11:31] <hallvors> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/interactive-elements.html#concept-command
  192. # [11:31] <hallvors> I'm probably missing something really basic about the command concept..
  193. # [11:34] <Philip`> hallvors: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/interactive-elements.html#the-command ?
  194. # [11:35] <hallvors> that helps! but I still don't see any text about @accesskey being allowed for <command>
  195. # [11:35] <Philip`> Hixie: That section says 'the checkbox" maps to the Checkbox' and is missing a quote and probably a word, though I'm too lazy to send mail about this
  196. # [11:35] * gsnedders|work is now known as gsnedders
  197. # [11:35] <Philip`> hallvors: Maybe it's in the global attributes? (I would look myself but Opera crashes as soon as I clicked the 'global attributes' link :-p )
  198. # [11:35] <hallvors> ah, "Global attributes"
  199. # [11:36] <hallvors> found it now, yes.
  200. # [11:36] * gsnedders is now known as gsnedders|work
  201. # [11:36] <Philip`> s/crashes/crashed/
  202. # [11:42] <hallvors> I'm assuming that the way to link <command> to an actual "scripted behaviour" is through normal event listeners (<command onclick=""> or command.addEventListener('click', ..) ) but I still don't see how other elements can "refer to" a defined command. Say, if I do <menu><command id="c" onclick="foo()"></menu> and want a <button> elsewhere to represent that command, how do I link the <button> element to the <command>?
  203. # [11:45] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  204. # [11:45] <Philip`> hallvors: Why do you want to link a <button> to the <command>?
  205. # [11:45] <Philip`> It seems like the idea is that <command>s just get put into context menus or toolbar menus, and you activate them from there
  206. # [11:46] <Philip`> though it also seems you can do <button onclick=document.getElementById('c').click()> if you want to activate it remotely
  207. # [11:48] <hallvors> I thought that was sort of the point of the spec saying "Once a command is defined, other parts of the interface can refer to the same command".
  208. # [11:49] <hallvors> and it would be a nice convenience if doing document.getElementById('c').setAttribute('disabled', 'disabled') would disable all "associated" <button>/<input> elements.
  209. # [11:49] <hallvors> for example
  210. # [11:50] <hallvors> guess I'm just misunderstanding the "other parts of the interface" sentence
  211. # [11:50] <Philip`> Oh, I didn't know the spec said that
  212. # [11:51] <Philip`> I haven't actually read it
  213. # [11:51] <hallvors> it's in the first blurb on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/interactive-elements.html#concept-command
  214. # [11:51] <Philip`> In fact I didn't even know this whole command thing existed, until twenty minutes ago
  215. # [11:51] <hallvors> it's a new thingy ;)
  216. # [11:51] <Philip`> so I should defer to someone who knows what they're talking about :-)
  217. # [11:52] <hallvors> you've been very helpful though :)
  218. # [12:00] * Joins: annevk4 (n=annevk@5355730F.cable.casema.nl)
  219. # [12:01] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  220. # [12:03] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  221. # [12:08] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-98-248-43-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  222. # [12:09] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-98-248-43-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  223. # [12:11] * Joins: adactio (n=adactio@host86-132-125-223.range86-132.btcentralplus.com)
  224. # [12:17] <Darxus> inimino: It did cause me to recognize the flaw in my question. However, the intent of my original question was sufficiently obvious that there was no use in recognizing the flaw or correcting it.
  225. # [12:19] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-1ade3dd43832c4b5) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  226. # [12:20] * Philip` doesn't understand the intent of the original question
  227. # [12:22] <Philip`> since I don't know how much flexibility you would want the schema language to have, or how much it could be tailored specifically for HTML5
  228. # [12:41] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-59-196.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  229. # [12:46] <gsnedders|work> eighty4: yt?
  230. # [12:48] * annevk4 wonders if it's worth reviewing the RDFa draft given that it contains stuff like "While deprecation of the xmlns: attribute is attempted in HTML5"
  231. # [12:53] * Quits: mstange_ (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.6a1pre/20090717031446]")
  232. # [12:58] * Quits: poe (n=poe@unaffiliated/xerox)
  233. # [13:03] <Lachy> annevk4, it's worth reading to see what they're proposing, but I haven't yet decided if it's worth responding with any feedback since it so clearly ignores all prior feedback about not relying on namespaces
  234. # [13:05] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
  235. # [13:05] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-d4f14db65f060807)
  236. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I notice spec-splitter.py doesn't report filenames of all sections it's generating files for
  237. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> would be nice if it did
  238. # [13:07] * MikeSmith goes to read the code
  239. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> d'oh
  240. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> my bad
  241. # [13:08] * MikeSmith hits himself with the idiot stick
  242. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> bad me
  243. # [13:17] * annevk4 gets to the formal objection thread
  244. # [13:19] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p4125-ipbf1010marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  245. # [13:23] <annevk4> a Chris Wilson summarizes in that thread how I feel about it "The fun conversations always happen when I'm on vacation."
  246. # [13:23] <annevk4> s/a/ah/
  247. # [13:32] <eighty4> gsnedders|work: yes
  248. # [13:34] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  249. # [13:35] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Um, okay
  250. # [13:36] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Does that mean I don't have to understand or respond to your comment? :-)
  251. # [13:40] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  252. # [13:42] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  253. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> Philip`: pretend I nver said it
  254. # [13:43] * Joins: Maurice` (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  255. # [13:49] <takkaria> annevk4: what thread?
  256. # [13:50] <annevk4> on public-html?
  257. # [13:50] <annevk4> and www-archive
  258. # [13:52] <takkaria> ah
  259. # [13:52] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de)
  260. # [13:53] * Quits: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@189.84-49-121.nextgentel.com)
  261. # [13:57] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  262. # [14:00] <Mrmil> What's more appropriate: <section> as main content area with news as <article>'s, or vice versa?
  263. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> Mrmil: I would think vice versa
  264. # [14:03] <annevk4> you probably want just <article> in that scenario
  265. # [14:03] <Mrmil> But what if the main content area contains: some text, shopping assistant, product catalog and list of categories? Can still that be in an article?
  266. # [14:04] <adactio> annevk4: do you mean an <article> with multiple <article>s nested in it?
  267. # [14:04] <annevk4> there's no real wrapper element for the main content area
  268. # [14:04] <Mrmil> ok
  269. # [14:04] <annevk4> some have suggested there should be one though
  270. # [14:04] <annevk4> i.e. <main> or <content> or some such
  271. # [14:04] <adactio> Well, we have <div>.
  272. # [14:05] <Mrmil> Could you look here? http://www.whatwg.org/demos/company-home/ I wonder if it's correct :)
  273. # [14:11] * Joins: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@189.84-49-121.nextgentel.com)
  274. # [14:13] <annevk4> "<q>Development</q>" is not an actual quote
  275. # [14:13] <annevk4> I'm not really sure about all the details of <section> / <article> etc. myself so I won't comment on that :)
  276. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> complete the following list:
  277. # [14:15] <Mrmil> annevk4: Hehe, ok. I saw a tutorial today showing it the other way.
  278. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> text/html parsing algorithm, Window object, innerHTML, document.write
  279. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> no answer is wrong
  280. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> unless the answer is stupid
  281. # [14:15] <adactio> Mrmil: Like many of these semantic questions, it's all a matter of opinion really, isn't it? Personally I might choose to use a <div> where you've used <section id="content"> or I might choose <footer> where you've used <aside> but I don't think there are any black and white answers.
  282. # [14:15] <annevk4> batman
  283. # [14:16] <annevk4> MikeSmith, aah
  284. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> heh
  285. # [14:16] <takkaria> <base href=""> changes
  286. # [14:16] <Mrmil> adactio: I kindof agree, it's hard to decide what markup to use
  287. # [14:17] * eighty4 pokes at gsnedders|work with a djungelvrål
  288. # [14:17] <adactio> Mrmil: we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty. ;-)
  289. # [14:17] <annevk4> adactio, arguably that makes the new elements less useful
  290. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> takkaria: cheers
  291. # [14:18] <adactio> annevk4: not at all, it follows in the tradition of HTML: flexibility with semantic choices empowers the author.
  292. # [14:18] <Mrmil> adactio: hehehe :P
  293. # [14:18] <annevk4> MikeSmith, you're looking for things it helped clarify?
  294. # [14:18] * MikeSmith smiles at "rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty"
  295. # [14:18] <adactio> MikeSmith: that was Douglas Adams, I believe. :-)
  296. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> adactio: aha
  297. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> I should have guessed
  298. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> either that or Mark Pilgrim
  299. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> annevk4: yeah, biggish stuff that's been around in browsers since 1975 or whenever but that was never spec'ed at all til now
  300. # [14:24] <annevk4> window.history / window.location / XMLHttpRequest / <base target>, <a href="x x">, <form> rendering in quirks mode, etc.
  301. # [14:24] <annevk4> activation of nested <a> elements
  302. # [14:24] <annevk4> contenteditable / execCommand() and friends
  303. # [14:26] <takkaria> quirks mode / standards mode generally, really
  304. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> annevk4, takkaria - thanks, adding to my list
  305. # [14:27] <annevk4> takkaria, yeah, I suppose <form> rendering in quirks mode is pretty obscure, but it was one of the things that caused us compat issues :)
  306. # [14:31] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  307. # [14:32] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: Error: Heading cannot be a child of another heading.
  308. # [14:32] <zcorpan> From line 189, column 3; to line 189, column 19
  309. # [14:32] <zcorpan> >↩<h1>↩↩ <h2 id="editing"><span
  310. # [14:33] * Joins: ginger (n=nessy@203-166-254-27.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  311. # [16:33] * Disconnected
  312. # [16:34] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  313. # [16:34] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  314. # [16:34] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  315. # [16:34] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  316. # [16:37] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128)
  317. # [16:39] <annevk4> quite fascinating how blogs make this XHTML 2.0 / HTML5 thing a soap opera
  318. # [16:40] <karlcow> annevk4: drama queen :)
  319. # [16:40] <gsnedders|work> Well, if it's a soap opera, I guess I can ignore it.
  320. # [16:40] * karlcow still thinks that Lachy as a drag queen on a bus singing would be cool
  321. # [16:40] <Philip`> Better than a soap firefox
  322. # [16:40] <Philip`> It wouldn't melt so fast
  323. # [16:41] * karlcow is referring to http://www.dvdverdict.com/images/reviewpics/priscilla1.jpg
  324. # [16:41] <annevk4> karlcow, I feel less and less moved by the ill-informed comments :)
  325. # [16:42] <karlcow> hehe
  326. # [16:42] <karlcow> annevk4: I guess it means that html5 reached a community a bit farther than w3c and whatwg. Somehow… finally the real world.
  327. # [16:45] * Joins: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@70.7.32.192)
  328. # [16:55] * Quits: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@70.7.32.192) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  329. # [16:57] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable150.182-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  330. # [17:00] * Joins: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@70-7-32-192.pools.spcsdns.net)
  331. # [17:01] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  332. # [17:01] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  333. # [17:02] * Parts: annevk4 (n=annevk@5355730F.cable.casema.nl)
  334. # [17:04] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  335. # [17:07] * Parts: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  336. # [17:08] * Joins: annevk4 (n=annevk@5355730F.cable.casema.nl)
  337. # [17:09] <Darxus> Somebody named something "grand unified schema" and it's only useful for biological stuff :(
  338. # [17:10] <ezyang> LDAP!
  339. # [17:12] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip111.unival.com)
  340. # [17:12] <MikeSmith> Philip`: thanks. working now
  341. # [17:13] * Joins: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@p4149-ipbf2803hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp)
  342. # [17:14] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Neato
  343. # [17:15] * Quits: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@189.84-49-121.nextgentel.com)
  344. # [17:18] * gsnedders|work waves
  345. # [17:18] * Quits: hallvors (n=hallvord@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  346. # [17:18] <gsnedders|work> Anyone have a clue about running reftests in Fx?
  347. # [17:18] <gsnedders|work> I'm getting stuff that looks like failures and no output. Something seems wrong.
  348. # [17:19] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Now all that's missing is the equivalent of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/404.html#the-draggable-attribute :-)
  349. # [17:19] <Philip`> (though preferably an equivalent that actually works, instead of having a temporarily broken fragment-links.js)
  350. # [17:20] <Philip`> MikeSmith: (The theory is that that's useful when pages get renamed and a link to an old page gets 404ed)
  351. # [17:24] * Quits: ginger (n=nessy@203-166-254-27.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  352. # [17:24] * Quits: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@70-7-32-192.pools.spcsdns.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  353. # [17:24] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  354. # [17:26] <MikeSmith> Philip`: ok, i can add that too
  355. # [17:27] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-59-196.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  356. # [17:33] * Quits: iugrina (n=iugrina@brale.math.hr) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  357. # [17:33] <mookid> Hello internet friends
  358. # [17:34] <mookid> Philip`: do you have 5 mins to spare me?
  359. # [17:34] <mookid> :>
  360. # [17:38] <Philip`> mookid: Probably not, unless it's about something interesting
  361. # [17:39] <mookid> potentially
  362. # [17:39] <mookid> it's about how browsers treat links and state transitions
  363. # [17:40] <mookid> Are state transitions in HTTP simply the URI/Verb combination, or the entire of the message?
  364. # [17:40] * Joins: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-39259d4e73fc7fce)
  365. # [17:41] <mookid> by message I mean HTTP message headers basically
  366. # [17:43] <Philip`> mookid: I have no idea
  367. # [17:44] <mookid> Does the browser store page history just with the URI and HTTP method?
  368. # [17:45] <gsnedders|work> It depends on the browser; most store cache headers as well, and some title for the page
  369. # [17:46] <mookid> is it feasible they could store the entire request? (minus sensitive headers like Authorization)
  370. # [17:46] <gsnedders|work> No idea
  371. # [17:46] * Joins: iugrina (n=iugrina@brale.math.hr)
  372. # [17:46] <gsnedders|work> I don't know what they store myself, I'm just guessing from my experience of the black box
  373. # [17:47] <mookid> fair enough - where might I get a bit of feedback on that?
  374. # [17:47] <mookid> is there a browser dev channel of some sort?
  375. # [17:47] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  376. # [17:48] <Darxus> XHTML 1.0 does not allow text directly in a body element, but HTML5 does??
  377. # [17:48] <gsnedders|work> XHTML 1.0 Transitional does, Strict does not.
  378. # [17:48] <gsnedders|work> But yes, HTML 5 does.
  379. # [17:49] <mookid> \o/
  380. # [17:49] <gsnedders|work> mookid: Being around here at the right time is probably your best bet
  381. # [17:49] <gsnedders|work> (Don't ask me when right time is though)
  382. # [17:49] <Philip`> mookid: You could look at e.g. Firefox's places.sqlite, which seems to be where it stores the page history information
  383. # [17:49] <Philip`> particularly in the table that's like: CREATE TABLE moz_places (id INTEGER PRIMARY KEY, url LONGVARCHAR, title LONGVARCHAR, rev_host LONGVARCHAR, visit_count INTEGER DEFAULT 0, hidden INTEGER DEFAULT 0 NOT NULL, typed INTEGER DEFAULT 0 NOT NULL, favicon_id INTEGER, frecency INTEGER DEFAULT -1 NOT NULL);
  384. # [17:49] <Philip`> (frecency? Hmm...)
  385. # [17:50] <mookid> :P
  386. # [17:50] <mookid> bloody hippies
  387. # [17:50] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  388. # [17:50] <Philip`> (That's a totally made up word, but apparently someone put it in Wiktionary)
  389. # [17:50] <mookid> ok gsnedders|work thanks for the heads up
  390. # [17:50] <mookid> I read back over a little bit of the stuff in November
  391. # [17:51] <mookid> and I think I got a little hot under the collar because I got accused of being an architecture astronaught or something
  392. # [17:51] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: frecency, like netwerk
  393. # [17:51] <Darxus> gsnedders|work: I am absolutely shocked that HTML5 allows that when XHTML 1.0 strict does not :P However, I never got around to trying to figure out why XHTML 1.0 Strict didn't.
  394. # [17:52] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: And referer
  395. # [17:52] <Darxus> Awesome, HTML5 validator catches overlapping table cells, and XHTML 1.0 Strict doesn't: http://www.chaosreigns.com/code/dxschema/tests/invalidtable.html
  396. # [17:52] <Darxus> It's also pretty cool how chrome renders it.
  397. # [17:52] <Darxus> And firefox.
  398. # [17:53] <mookid> anyway I'm going to try and formulate a more complete case for adding conneg attributes
  399. # [17:54] <mookid> not that I expect it to be taken seriously but just so I don't look like I was causing a fuss for no reason :)
  400. # [17:56] <Darxus> Yeah I've been futilly agravating the whatwg list for a couple days trying to convince them it could be useful to have a standard way to mention the target HTML specification for the document :/
  401. # [17:56] <mookid> to be fair I think there's quite a lot of us asking for stuff
  402. # [17:57] <mookid> so hate me
  403. # [17:57] <mookid> because I hate you
  404. # [17:57] <Darxus> Haha.
  405. # [17:57] <mookid> ?
  406. # [17:57] <mookid> seriously.
  407. # [17:57] <mookid> :D
  408. # [17:57] <Darxus> And I'm not allowed to be amused?
  409. # [17:58] <mookid> was joking
  410. # [17:58] <mookid> although we can have an argument about it if you want
  411. # [17:58] <mookid> since we're both into that kind of thing
  412. # [17:58] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  413. # [17:58] <Darxus> Haha.
  414. # [17:58] <mookid> ?
  415. # [17:58] <Darxus> Have you seen my posts?
  416. # [17:58] <mookid> no
  417. # [17:58] <Darxus> Or are you just basing that belief on what I've said here?
  418. # [17:59] <Darxus> Okay.
  419. # [17:59] <Darxus> Working on it.
  420. # [17:59] <gsnedders|work> Darxus: There have been several hundred emails on that subject already, FWIW
  421. # [18:01] <Darxus> I want a way, specified in HTML5, to state which HTML version I expect a document to conform to.
  422. # [18:02] <Philip`> Darxus: It seems your posts started with a solution (adding a language version identifier to documents) and then tried to describe a problem for it, whereas you might have more success with defining a practical problem and then suggesting and comparing possible solutions (of which a language version identifier might be one, with various pros and cons)
  423. # [18:02] <Darxus> I would be fine with something like either <meta name="html version" content="5"> or <body data-html-version=5>.
  424. # [18:02] <mookid> mmm
  425. # [18:02] <mookid> use an HTTP header
  426. # [18:02] <mookid> -_-
  427. # [18:03] <mookid> or extend the MIME type
  428. # [18:03] <mookid> what is the MIME type for html5?
  429. # [18:03] <mookid> is it just text/html >?
  430. # [18:04] <Darxus> Philip`: I totally agree. My last case was where someone has thousands of HTML5 conformant files and is gradually converting them to HTML5.1. And wants to be able to spider validate his entire site, while ensuring that the old files are still valid HTML5, and the updated files are still valid HTML 5.1.
  431. # [18:04] <Philip`> Yes, text/html
  432. # [18:04] <Darxus> text/html *or* application/xhtml+xml.
  433. # [18:04] <Darxus> Or I think application/xml.
  434. # [18:04] <mookid> don't use anything other than text/html
  435. # [18:04] <mookid> it breaks stuff.
  436. # [18:04] <Darxus> You don't get the full awesomeness of the browser using an xml parser unless you serve it as an xml content type.
  437. # [18:04] <annevk4> Darxus, the idea is that we do not make incompatible changes unless we really need to
  438. # [18:05] <annevk4> Darxus, and if we really need to authors better update their pages too because the feature they're using is harmful in some way
  439. # [18:05] <Darxus> mookid: Grr. Serve text/html to anyone with "MSIE" in their User-Agent, and application/xhtml+xml to everyone else. With the same document.
  440. # [18:05] <gsnedders|work> Darxus: HTML 5 cannot be served as application/xhtml+xml; XHTML 5 can.
  441. # [18:05] <Philip`> Darxus: That just punishes non-IE users, by increasing the chance of them seeing a fatal error instead of your page
  442. # [18:05] <gsnedders|work> Darxus: Have fun if you accept any user input with XML formats.
  443. # [18:05] * Quits: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-39259d4e73fc7fce) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  444. # [18:05] <mookid> Darxus: yeah I know that - but be normal and just use text/html -_-
  445. # [18:06] <annevk4> Darxus, besides what Philip` said, XML parsers are also less optimized than HTML parsers
  446. # [18:06] <Darxus> gsnedders|work: I have not yet fully grasped the differences between the xml and html types.
  447. # [18:06] <Darxus> annevk4: Less optimized? They seem really freaking fast to me.
  448. # [18:06] <mookid> current html isn't valid XML
  449. # [18:06] <annevk4> Darxus, i.e. not all XML parsers have fast paths for known elements to create the appropriate DOM constructs right away
  450. # [18:06] <Darxus> They have the advantage of knowing they are getting a perfectly formed document.
  451. # [18:06] <annevk4> Darxus, in browsers
  452. # [18:06] <annevk4> Darxus, that's not really an advantage
  453. # [18:07] <annevk4> Darxus, have you written parsers?
  454. # [18:07] * annevk4 has
  455. # [18:07] <mookid> sex god
  456. # [18:07] <Darxus> mookid: I looked into specifying the HTML version in the Content-Type, it looks entirely possible, as: Content-Type: text/html; v=5
  457. # [18:07] <mookid> right
  458. # [18:07] <Darxus> annevk4: I have not yet written parsers.
  459. # [18:07] <mookid> what's wrong with that?
  460. # [18:07] <gsnedders|work> Darxus: Knowing something is perfectly formed makes no difference.
  461. # [18:07] <Darxus> What's wrong with what?
  462. # [18:08] <gsnedders|work> mookid, Darxus: What do you gain by it?
  463. # [18:08] <mookid> nothing I'm just giving him a solution
  464. # [18:08] <annevk4> XML also requires more complicated checks on element names and such that require some extra time
  465. # [18:08] * Joins: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-78bff43d0611347b)
  466. # [18:08] <mookid> dont' use html anyway use JSON it works better
  467. # [18:08] <Darxus> mookid: The thing that's wrong with specifying the html version number in the Content-Type is that I want to specify it in the document, so I don't have to keep seperate records are which files are to which spec.
  468. # [18:09] <mookid> you're storing your html in flat file?
  469. # [18:09] <mookid> with no metadata?
  470. # [18:09] * gsnedders|work finds a test case that says, "This page tests something"
  471. # [18:09] <Darxus> mookid: Yes.
  472. # [18:09] <mookid> ewww
  473. # [18:09] <Darxus> Heh.
  474. # [18:09] <Philip`> Storing HTML in files? How antiquated!
  475. # [18:10] <mookid> how's 1994 these days?
  476. # [18:10] <Philip`> You need to be more enterprisey
  477. # [18:10] <Darxus> Maybe I'm wrong about XML vs. HTML, but I thought XML was better. I'll try to remember to look into it.
  478. # [18:10] <gsnedders|work> You need to store everything in a database!
  479. # [18:10] <Darxus> This is my personal web site, it's almost all static html :)
  480. # [18:10] <Darxus> Heh.
  481. # [18:10] <gsnedders|work> You know, just store everything in a single column table with the datatype of BLOB.
  482. # [18:10] <mookid> I said no metadata :/
  483. # [18:10] <gsnedders|work> Because databases are cool.
  484. # [18:11] <gsnedders|work> mookid: I know, I'm just being silly about the whole file thing.
  485. # [18:11] <mookid> :P
  486. # [18:11] <Darxus> So what reason is there to not include a method of specifying the HTML version in the HTML5 spec?
  487. # [18:11] <mookid> RDBMS's are totally unnecessary in the majority of cases
  488. # [18:11] <mookid> it's just lower barrier to entry
  489. # [18:11] <gsnedders|work> mookid: Seriously though, most FS can store little to no metadata
  490. # [18:11] <mookid> apache can do clever thins with metadata though right?
  491. # [18:12] <gsnedders|work> It stores metadata in seperate config files though
  492. # [18:12] <gsnedders|work> Or serializes it into the filename
  493. # [18:12] <mookid> yeah and rules
  494. # [18:12] <mookid> well that's flat files for ya
  495. # [18:12] <mookid> -_-
  496. # [18:13] <mookid> just store the metadata, work out how your rules are going to work, and tack on the version to the content-type header
  497. # [18:14] <mookid> isn't it really inefficient to parse XML instead of just looking at a header?
  498. # [18:14] * gsnedders|work is quite tempted to go and get some food
  499. # [18:15] * Quits: taf2_ (n=taf2@38.99.201.242)
  500. # [18:15] <gsnedders|work> mookid: Parsing MIME types is expensive, though.
  501. # [18:15] <mookid> is it?
  502. # [18:15] <mookid> o.O
  503. # [18:15] <gsnedders|work> What metadata do we want?
  504. # [18:15] <gsnedders|work> If it's something in the prolog, you can just stop parsing XML after that.
  505. # [18:16] <gsnedders|work> mookid: Yes, the format of MIME types is quite complex.
  506. # [18:16] <mookid> meh, you standards people suck.
  507. # [18:16] <gsnedders|work> mookid: Why?
  508. # [18:16] <mookid> that's a joke
  509. # [18:16] <mookid> your brain is much bigger than mine
  510. # [18:16] <mookid> relax
  511. # [18:16] <mookid> :P
  512. # [18:16] * gsnedders|work takes a deep breath
  513. # [18:16] <gsnedders|work> :P
  514. # [18:16] <mookid> ;D
  515. # [18:17] <mookid> still waiting for the right time to ask that question again
  516. # [18:17] <gsnedders|work> Hmm, if I go home now, then I need to work an extra hour and half over for the next two days
  517. # [18:17] <Darxus> Even better: http://www.chaosreigns.com/code/dxschema/tests/invalidtable.html
  518. # [18:18] <gsnedders|work> mookid: The conneg one? Ask it on the mailing list if you want a more diverse set of opinions, and want the proposal to go anywhere
  519. # [18:18] <mookid> can't you just write a script to auto-respond to emails with 'no its not getting included there's no use case' ?
  520. # [18:18] <gsnedders|work> Hmm, I'm not sure whether NLP is up to that :P
  521. # [18:18] <mookid> yeah, it's tricky stuff
  522. # [18:18] <mookid> -_-
  523. # [18:22] <annevk4> mookid, also, conneg is pretty much dead
  524. # [18:24] <Darxus> (invalidly) Overlapping cells with 50% alpha background colors: http://www.chaosreigns.com/code/dxschema/tests/invalidtable.html
  525. # [18:29] <mookid> annevk4: that's because browsers and HTML don't support it - not because there's anything wrong with it
  526. # [18:29] <mookid> it's actually a really good thing for stuff like cache-invalidation mechanisms
  527. # [18:31] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  528. # [18:31] <Darxus> The HTML5 spec is a bit verbose.
  529. # [18:33] <Philip`> Verbose, or detailed?
  530. # [18:34] <Philip`> It says a lot but I think a lot of what it says is necessary
  531. # [18:34] * Quits: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  532. # [18:35] <Darxus> Yeah I don't object.
  533. # [18:35] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Developing_HTML5_derivatives is no longer true (where have header-whatwg and header-w3c gone?)
  534. # [18:37] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-5fcb4c11418883d9)
  535. # [18:42] * Joins: ap (n=ap@nat/apple/x-8f03c60190c64102)
  536. # [18:49] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.116.67.101.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  537. # [18:52] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@89.61.167.21)
  538. # [18:55] <Darxus> "This specification should be read like all other specifications. First, it should be read cover-to-cover, multiple times. Then, it should be read backwards at least once." - HTML5
  539. # [18:59] <Darxus> Ack, attribute values are not all required to be quoted?
  540. # [19:00] <Philip`> They aren't
  541. # [19:00] <Philip`> <input type=checkbox checked> etc
  542. # [19:01] <tantek> Philip' is that for both the HTML and XHTML serializations?
  543. # [19:01] <Lachy> tantek, no
  544. # [19:01] * Quits: sebmarkbage (n=miranda@h-6-72.A146.priv.bahnhof.se) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  545. # [19:02] <tantek> Lachy, good, that's what I thought.
  546. # [19:02] <Philip`> XHTML is just XML and doesn't change any of XML's rules
  547. # [19:02] <Philip`> so there shouldn't be anything to worry about there :-)
  548. # [19:04] <Darxus> Ah, good.
  549. # [19:05] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p4125-ipbf1010marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  550. # [19:07] <Darxus> Why wasn't CSS originally implimented in sgml, and why isn't it now conformant to xml similarly to HTML5/XML?
  551. # [19:07] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-d4f14db65f060807) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  552. # [19:10] <Philip`> Because if the syntax was SGML/XML, it would be incredibly painful to write
  553. # [19:11] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-5811bdbc8aad07d7)
  554. # [19:11] <ttepass-> DSSSL!
  555. # [19:19] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-098-027-052-152.nc.res.rr.com)
  556. # [19:19] * Quits: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-78bff43d0611347b) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  557. # [19:19] * Quits: annevk4 (n=annevk@5355730F.cable.casema.nl) (Remote closed the connection)
  558. # [19:20] * Joins: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-af1f2f69c425c62c)
  559. # [19:20] <Darxus> <css> <definition> <target> <element>div</element> <class>container</class> </target> <attribute> <top>0</top> <left>0</left> <width>100%</width> </attribute> </definition> </css>
  560. # [19:20] <Darxus> Philip`: Point taken.
  561. # [19:20] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37) (No route to host)
  562. # [19:21] <Darxus> Or I guess <attribute top="0" left="0" width="100%">.
  563. # [19:22] <Philip`> <style selector="div.foo" top="0" left="0" width="100%"/>
  564. # [19:22] <Darxus> Wow, thanks. I have much to learn.
  565. # [19:23] <Philip`> if you don't mind using a custom non-XML language for selectors
  566. # [19:23] <Philip`> There's nothing to learn, I just made that up :-)
  567. # [19:23] <Philip`> Don't know how to extend it to handle things like !important
  568. # [19:23] <Darxus> I disagree. It is a much shorter valid xml way of representing the same thiing I typed.
  569. # [19:24] <Darxus> And I want to write a schema language :P
  570. # [19:25] <eighty4> <target><element>div></element>.....<imporance><level>1000</level></importance>....</target>?
  571. # [19:26] * Joins: jennb (n=jennb@72.14.227.1)
  572. # [19:28] <ttepass-> Just a thought: A XML-Version of CSS in Philip's style had a great use of CURIES:
  573. # [19:28] <ttepass-> <style xmlns:svg="http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG" selector="[svg:path] .... />
  574. # [19:28] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  575. # [19:42] <tantek> Darxuz - see http://bytes.com/groups/css/99746-why-css-not-xml
  576. # [19:45] <tantek> and while looking for that, I found:
  577. # [19:45] <tantek> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/xhtml-faq
  578. # [19:46] <tantek> I'm pretty sure I read this long ago in the past, but I thought folks here might find it insightful from a development of HTML/XHTML standpoint.
  579. # [19:47] * Joins: annevk4 (n=annevk@5355730F.cable.casema.nl)
  580. # [19:47] <tantek> even better answer to the "Why is CSS not XML syntax" FAQ:
  581. # [19:47] <tantek> "CSS has its own syntax because readability is very important for a language that is used by nearly as many people as HTML itself. It could have been based on SGML, and originally there were indeed proposals for SGML-based syntaxes (see [Lie99]) and there even existed a US military standard ([FOSI]), but there was never any question that CSS syntax is better. (XML didn't exist at the time, but it wouldn't have helped since it is more verbose than SGML and al
  582. # [19:47] <tantek> from http://www.w3.org/People/Bos/DesignGuide/readability.html
  583. # [19:47] <tantek> by Bert Bos, one of the creators of CSS
  584. # [19:48] <inimino> well put
  585. # [19:49] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-206-128.bredband.comhem.se)
  586. # [19:51] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.246.18.19)
  587. # [19:52] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.246.18.19) (Remote closed the connection)
  588. # [19:53] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-352a52d4c3b0b07d)
  589. # [19:53] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-5811bdbc8aad07d7) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  590. # [19:54] <Darxus> Cool.
  591. # [20:02] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  592. # [20:03] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-098-027-052-152.nc.res.rr.com)
  593. # [20:04] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  594. # [20:05] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.18.19)
  595. # [20:06] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.18.19) (Remote closed the connection)
  596. # [20:07] * Joins: weinig__ (n=weinig@17.246.18.19)
  597. # [20:07] * Quits: weinig__ (n=weinig@17.246.18.19) (Remote closed the connection)
  598. # [20:07] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-352a52d4c3b0b07d) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  599. # [20:07] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-b51315ccb37b7961)
  600. # [20:13] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  601. # [20:25] <Darxus> I was trying to write a schema language without having ever looked at one. I was trying to decide one / zeroorone / zeroormore / oneormore, and one / optional / (default) / required, and then looked up relax ng and discovered it uses a mix.
  602. # [20:37] <Darxus> Hah, there are constraints on W3C Schema that cannot be expressed in it?
  603. # [20:44] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  604. # [20:49] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) ("going back to danbri.org")
  605. # [20:53] * Quits: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  606. # [20:53] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  607. # [20:55] * Quits: shepazutoo (n=schepers@adsl-150-136-216.rmo.bellsouth.net) ("Core Breach")
  608. # [21:00] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  609. # [21:03] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-121-49.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  610. # [21:06] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-88-146.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  611. # [21:09] * Joins: sebmarkbage (n=miranda@h-6-72.A146.priv.bahnhof.se)
  612. # [21:17] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-150-136-216.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  613. # [21:17] * Quits: sbublava (n=stephan@77.116.67.101.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  614. # [21:19] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  615. # [21:20] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  616. # [21:20] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  617. # [21:20] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  618. # [21:31] * Quits: Yudai (n=Yudai@p929c7b.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  619. # [21:31] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.1pre/20090720031503]")
  620. # [21:37] <sebmarkbage> How long does it typically take for a moderator to review a message to the list? My first post hasn't gone through yet. Anxious. :)
  621. # [21:38] <annevk4> which list and are you subscribed to it?
  622. # [21:40] * maikmerten is now known as maik|afk
  623. # [21:41] <sebmarkbage> annevk4: whatwg@whatwg.org and yes
  624. # [21:41] * Joins: Yudai (n=Yudai@p929c7b.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp)
  625. # [21:42] <annevk4> there should be no moderation
  626. # [21:42] <annevk4> if you got a moderation message it means you are not subscribed
  627. # [21:43] <sebmarkbage> that's weird... I recieve the e-mails...
  628. # [21:43] <annevk4> are you sending from the same address as you're receiving? just checking...
  629. # [21:44] <sebmarkbage> yes.
  630. # [21:44] <sebmarkbage> If I send, I get a "Your message to whatwg awaits moderator approval" by whatwg-bounces@lists.whatwg.org
  631. # [21:48] <sebmarkbage> let me just check which e-mail gets the list again just to make sure...
  632. # [21:48] <Philip`> sebmarkbage: The moderators take infinitely long
  633. # [21:48] <Darxus> I found a typo! "A content attribute is said to change value only if its value new value is different" - 2.1.2, DOM trees
  634. # [21:49] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-9955c6ec8bda258a)
  635. # [21:49] <sebmarkbage> Yea, I had subscribed using a different e-mail. typo. thanx.
  636. # [21:50] <Philip`> Darxus: http://www.mail-archive.com/whatwg@lists.whatwg.org/msg16078.html - old news :-p
  637. # [21:52] <Darxus> Damn.
  638. # [21:56] <Darxus> How about "it is possible in this encodings" s/this/these/ ?
  639. # [21:56] <Darxus> 2.1.5 Character encodings
  640. # [22:04] <annevk4> sebmarkbage, seems to work now
  641. # [22:04] <sebmarkbage> yes. Thanks annevk4
  642. # [22:07] <Philip`> Darxus: See same mail as the other typo :-)
  643. # [22:08] <gsnedders> The UK is losing 52 pubs per week! Oh noes!
  644. # [22:08] * Philip` suggests looking behind the sofa
  645. # [22:08] <Philip`> Wait, that's not quite the right concept
  646. # [22:09] * Philip` is mixing up lost coins and Doctor Who watching habits
  647. # [22:09] * gsnedders squints
  648. # [22:10] * Quits: maik|afk (n=maikmert@89.61.167.21) (Remote closed the connection)
  649. # [22:11] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@nat/mozilla/x-707c77af63d55266)
  650. # [22:20] * Joins: erikvvold (n=erikvvol@96.49.192.204)
  651. # [22:28] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  652. # [22:31] * Quits: erikvold (n=erikvvol@96.49.192.204) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  653. # [22:37] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@nat/mozilla/x-707c77af63d55266) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  654. # [22:37] * Joins: dolske_ (n=dolske@nat/mozilla/x-601ce10e2a7930b4)
  655. # [22:39] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.246.18.19)
  656. # [22:46] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.246.18.19) (Remote closed the connection)
  657. # [22:46] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-113a40734cbc6591)
  658. # [22:47] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-b51315ccb37b7961) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  659. # [22:47] * Quits: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-af1f2f69c425c62c) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  660. # [22:49] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  661. # [22:54] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.18.19)
  662. # [22:55] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  663. # [22:55] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  664. # [23:00] * Joins: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-c0ee216e8f2e38f5)
  665. # [23:01] * Quits: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-80a04eb683de2933)
  666. # [23:04] * Quits: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-c0ee216e8f2e38f5) (Client Quit)
  667. # [23:05] * Joins: jennb_ (n=jennb@72.14.227.1)
  668. # [23:06] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@ppp-3-250.glou-b-1.access.uk.tiscali.com)
  669. # [23:07] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.18.19) (Remote closed the connection)
  670. # [23:07] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-f26cddd8efafd4bd)
  671. # [23:07] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-113a40734cbc6591) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  672. # [23:10] * Quits: annevk4 (n=annevk@5355730F.cable.casema.nl) (Remote closed the connection)
  673. # [23:15] * Joins: roc (n=roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  674. # [23:19] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-160-225.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  675. # [23:21] * Quits: jennb (n=jennb@72.14.227.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  676. # [23:21] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128) (Remote closed the connection)
  677. # [23:22] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128)
  678. # [23:22] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@209.133.114.31)
  679. # [23:23] * Joins: slightlyoff_ (n=slightly@72.14.224.1)
  680. # [23:28] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  681. # [23:28] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128) (Remote closed the connection)
  682. # [23:29] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128)
  683. # [23:34] * Quits: slightlyoff_ (n=slightly@72.14.224.1)
  684. # [23:39] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@209.133.114.31) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  685. # [23:41] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@209.133.114.31)
  686. # [23:41] * Joins: slightlyoff_ (n=slightly@72.14.224.1)
  687. # [23:45] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-206-128.bredband.comhem.se)
  688. # [23:53] * Quits: jennb_ (n=jennb@72.14.227.1) (Remote closed the connection)
  689. # [23:54] * Joins: jennb (n=jennb@72.14.227.1)
  690. # [23:55] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@ppp-3-250.glou-b-1.access.uk.tiscali.com) ("Leaving")
  691. # [23:58] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@209.133.114.31) (Connection timed out)
  692. # Session Close: Thu Jul 23 00:00:00 2009

The end :)