/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-07-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 23 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:34] <caden> is there a way to save the current canvas bitmap and then retrieve it, like to reset the background of an animation?
  13. # [00:35] <caden> getImageData, probably?
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  15. # [00:35] <Philip`> caden: You could create a new <canvas> (with createElement) and then drawImage the current one into it, then draw it back later
  16. # [00:35] <Philip`> or use getImageData/putImageData
  17. # [00:36] <Philip`> or use toDataURL/drawImage (except that probably will throw security errors in most browsers if you do it multiple times)
  18. # [00:36] <Philip`> (Copying to a new canvas is probably going to be more efficient than getImageData, if you care about that)
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  20. # [00:38] <caden> can i make that new canvas invisible then?
  21. # [00:39] <caden> right now redrawing the graph between animation frames is the application bottleneck
  22. # [00:39] <caden> i am hoping i can just refresh this snapshot instead of redrawing all the axes and lines and whatnot
  23. # [00:40] <Philip`> Yes - if you do something like "var c = document.createElement('canvas'); c.width = ...; c.height = ...; c.getContext('2d').drawImage(othercanvas, 0, 0)" then the new canvas never gets rendered since it's not added to the document
  24. # [00:43] <caden> i will try it, the get/put did not improve performance
  25. # [00:50] <caden> does this look right to ou for restoring the image? this.snapshotCanvas.getContext('2d').drawImage(this.canvasContext,0,0);
  26. # [00:50] <caden> or is this.canvasContext supposed to be a refernce to an element instead of a context
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  29. # [00:53] <Philip`> caden: The argument to drawImage is the canvas object that you want to copy from
  30. # [00:53] <Philip`> rather than a context
  31. # [00:53] <caden> ok
  32. # [00:53] <caden> thank you!
  33. # [00:53] <caden> it looks like it stores the background as transparent, does that sound right?
  34. # [00:54] <Philip`> Probably - if you're not explicitly drawing over the canvas's background then it'll just be transparent
  35. # [00:54] <caden> cool
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  40. # [01:04] <caden> well, i'm using a very primitive way of profiling, using just getTime() statements, and these indicate that drawImage is much faster than get/put
  41. # [01:05] <caden> although subjectively it doesn't seem faster
  42. # [01:05] <caden> maybe it is just my sucky machine
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  48. # [01:18] <caden> do you ant to see it?
  49. # [01:18] <caden> s/ant/want/
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  53. # [01:23] <shepazu> Hixie: do elements in HTML5 have "default actions"?
  54. # [01:28] <shepazu> ok, I'll try again... anyone, do elements in HTML5 have "default actions"?
  55. # [01:28] <shepazu> or is that nonsense?
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  57. # [01:31] <annevk4> shepazu, they have activation behavior
  58. # [01:32] <annevk4> shepazu, e.g. the activation behavior of <a> is to navigate
  59. # [01:33] <shepazu> annevk4: ok... so, is that the terminology of HTML5, HTML4, both...?
  60. # [01:34] <shepazu> and if link is activated, what events does it produce?
  61. # [01:34] <annevk4> activation behavior is associated with the click event
  62. # [01:34] <shepazu> does it produce a click, or only if it was activated by the mouse?
  63. # [01:34] * shepazu writes a test
  64. # [01:34] <annevk4> always click
  65. # [01:35] <annevk4> anyway, the idea was for DOM3Events to define activation behavior and various related thingies, but bjoern never got around to it so now it's defined in HTML5
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  68. # [01:38] <shepazu> well, I'm actively editing DOM3 Events, so I'll define it there if it needs to be
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  70. # [01:39] <annevk4> cool
  71. # [01:41] <othermaciej> shepazu: I think to support "click" and "DOMActivate" the way other browsers do, for elements that have an activation behavior, clicking needs to dispatch a "click" event whose default action is to dispatch a "DOMActivate" event, whose default action in turn is to perform the activation behavior of the element
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  73. # [01:42] <othermaciej> shepazu: similarly, any activation not driven by the mouse (such as via keyboard or by calling the click() method) needs to dispatch a synthetic "click" event same as above
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  76. # [01:42] <othermaciej> shepazu: if DOM3EV defines all this, then HTML5 could limit itself to stating which elements have activation behavior, and what that behavior is for each one
  77. # [01:42] <othermaciej> (I think)
  78. # [01:43] <annevk4> yeah, that is pretty much how HTML5 does it
  79. # [01:43] <annevk4> I still think we should nuke DOMActivate though
  80. # [01:44] <shepazu> what would change your mind?
  81. # [01:45] <othermaciej> DOMActivate adds code complexity, and it's not clear if it serves a useful purpose
  82. # [01:45] <othermaciej> otoh now that we've implemented it, it's not a huge burden to maintain support
  83. # [01:45] <shepazu> othermaciej: do you think it would be useful for D3E to define it? I guess if it did, I reckon I'd more or less take whatever HTML5 says on it
  84. # [01:46] <shepazu> it would be useful for e.g. SVG, I think
  85. # [01:46] <annevk4> shepazu, a good reason for having it besides click?
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  87. # [01:47] <othermaciej> shepazu: I think it makes sense to define the notion of activation in D3E, because I think all specs with activation behavior would want to do it the same
  88. # [01:48] <shepazu> ok, I'll put that in an upcoming draft, thanks
  89. # [01:48] <othermaciej> annevk4: does Opera support DOMActivate?
  90. # [01:48] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128)
  91. # [01:49] <annevk4> seems like we don't
  92. # [01:50] <annevk4> I filed the original bug for it in 2005 or so and all duplicates were from third-party testers
  93. # [01:50] <othermaciej> I'm wondering how likely it is that any Web content depends on it
  94. # [01:50] <annevk4> given the details I have it seems highly unlikely
  95. # [01:51] <annevk4> apart from some tests here and there
  96. # [01:51] <shepazu> could we find out from MAMA?
  97. # [01:51] <shepazu> or from Google's research?
  98. # [01:52] <annevk4> we can never be really sure, but both Opera and IE not supporting it seems like a good indicator to me
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  100. # [01:54] <othermaciej> despite what Chaals said, I don't see WCAG specifically requiring DOMActivate
  101. # [01:55] <othermaciej> annevk4: it's possible sites could be using it in non-IE code paths and not caring or knowing that they break in Opera, although there doesn't seem much reason to doing it
  102. # [01:55] <Darxus> The head element says it contains "One or more elements of metadata content, of which exactly one is a title element."
  103. # [01:56] <annevk4> othermaciej, I guess
  104. # [01:56] <annevk4> othermaciej, I'd be interested in that code :)
  105. # [01:56] <othermaciej> Is there any SVG content that depends on DOMActivate?
  106. # [01:56] <Darxus> The meta element says it can be contained in the head element. Nowhere does it says anything about number of times. This annoys me. Although I suppose that means >=0.
  107. # [01:56] <othermaciej> (whether Web-published or not?)
  108. # [01:57] <othermaciej> So far it seems like the only hard dependency is XForms, and that doesn't seem like a good enough reason by itself
  109. # [01:58] <othermaciej> SVG 1.2 Tiny seems really vague about what elements will trigger a DOMActivate or what causes this to happen
  110. # [01:58] <Darxus> It'd be fun for gnuplot to have a terminal type of html5canvas.
  111. # [01:59] <Darxus> Actually, has anybody written a SVG / postscript / etc. converter to <canvas> yet?
  112. # [01:59] <othermaciej> it's implied that any rendered element can have activation behavior, the example given is a <circle>
  113. # [01:59] <othermaciej> Dino wrote a basic SVG-to-<canvas> converter long ago
  114. # [02:00] <shepazu> sorry, othermaciej, I was chopping mushrooms
  115. # [02:02] <shepazu> othermaciej: I don't know if any SVG content depends on it... I'm at a loss to find out if it does, other than surveys like MAMA
  116. # [02:03] <annevk4> figuring out if stuff breaks in experimental impl is likely a good solution
  117. # [02:03] <annevk4> again though, also for SVG we have received no bug reports on DOMActivate (apart from a test)
  118. # [02:05] <shepazu> othermaciej: well, if a circle had a DOMActivate event listener, or maybe a SMIL child element element... but other than that, I don't think any element in SVG should have default "activation behavior" than <a>
  119. # [02:05] * shepazu tries to think of what other elements there might be in SVG that have activation behavior...
  120. # [02:07] <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/elementTable.html
  121. # [02:07] <shepazu> maybe <audio> and <video>...
  122. # [02:07] <annevk4> elements are activatable based on their event listeners in SVG? ouch
  123. # [02:08] <annevk4> oh well, I suppose it does not matter much
  124. # [02:10] <shepazu> annevk4: how is it controversial to make an element activateable by putting a "DOMActivate" listener on it? I'm confused...
  125. # [02:11] <shepazu> but would the activation behavior of a multimedia element vary on whether the content was already playing or not? what's the activation behavior of HTML multimedia elements?
  126. # [02:11] <annevk4> shepazu, it seems activation behavior should come from semantics
  127. # [02:12] <othermaciej> shepazu: making an element activatable by putting a "DOMActivate" listener on it would be somewhat weird - an ancestor element with a DOMActivate listener would see the inner element get DOMActivate if and only if the inner element had its own listener
  128. # [02:13] <shepazu> othermaciej: ok
  129. # [02:14] <othermaciej> shepazu: since DOMActivate bubbles, that would be somewhat illogical I think
  130. # [02:14] <othermaciej> also, in general, listeners observe events, but don't observably affect what events get dispatched just by their presence
  131. # [02:14] <shepazu> I'm just grasping at straws on what elements in SVG would have inherent activation behavior... links, multimedia elements, maybe SMIL elements that didn't have explicit @begin values?
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  133. # [02:15] <annevk4> seems like www-svg might be a better place to ask that than #whatwg :)
  134. # [02:15] <othermaciej> you could make the case that every SVG element should be activatable, but it's kind of unclear what forms of non-click activation, if any, would work for something like <circle> or <path>
  135. # [02:15] <othermaciej> and what the activation behavior would be
  136. # [02:15] <Darxus> I just had an HTML5 comprehension breakthrough. The "meta" element is in the "encoding declaration state" when its "http-equiv" attribute has a value of "content-type".
  137. # [02:16] <othermaciej> I could buy the argument that an activation-triggered SMIL animation makes you activatable, although that's a complicated rule
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  139. # [02:16] <othermaciej> I think SVG <a> elements are clearly activatable
  140. # [02:16] <shepazu> yes, <a> is understood
  141. # [02:17] <shepazu> it's not actually a concept that SVG has had to deal with much, since there are so few truly activateable elements, I guess
  142. # [02:18] <shepazu> whereas HTML has quite a few
  143. # [02:18] <Darxus> Contexts in which the "meta" element can be used really should be changed from "If the charset attribute is present, or if the element is in the Encoding declaration state: in a head element." to 'If the charset attribute is present, or if the attribute "http-equiv" is set to "content-type".'
  144. # [02:19] <shepazu> annevk4: are you seriously telling me that I shouldn't try to resolve open questions about improving SVG by asking opinions in #whatwg
  145. # [02:20] <annevk4> I thought this was a question about how SVG works today
  146. # [02:20] <annevk4> because of "would"
  147. # [02:20] <othermaciej> annevk4: I think it's more a question of how it should work per spec, if D3E centrally defines the concept of activation
  148. # [02:21] <othermaciej> but it would also be useful to determine when actual SVG implementations fire DOMActivate events, and if this seems logical
  149. # [02:21] * shepazu looks closer at activation behavior in HTML5, including where it's used
  150. # [02:21] <annevk4> shepazu, also, I included a smiley...
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  152. # [02:24] <othermaciej> HTML5 actually defines that any element that is forced to be keyboard focusable by tabIndex is activatable
  153. # [02:24] <othermaciej> (with an activation behavior that does nothing, unless it would otherwise have an activation behavior)
  154. # [02:24] <shepazu> yeah, just looking at that
  155. # [02:24] <shepazu> ah, ok, thanks, that clarifies it
  156. # [02:25] <othermaciej> and <a>, <label>, <input>, <area>, <command> and <button> may have some built-in activation behavior, depending on circumstances
  157. # [02:26] <othermaciej> oddly, <bb> does not have defined activation behavior
  158. # [02:26] <shepazu> in that case, most SVG elements would have similar behavior for those elements, but still no true activation behavior... maybe it would be more accurate to say that the focusable attribute adds activation behavior
  159. # [02:27] <shepazu> othermaciej: maybe an oversight?
  160. # [02:27] <othermaciej> dunno - I'll send a comment
  161. # [02:28] <shepazu> I don't know the <bb> elements... you know of an example that uses it? the spec seems vague
  162. # [02:30] <othermaciej> it's not implemented or used by anyone yet
  163. # [02:30] <Darxus> Suggested changes to the draft go to the implementors list?
  164. # [02:30] <othermaciej> it's just... buttonish
  165. # [02:31] <annevk4> Darxus, no, to whatwg@whatwg.org
  166. # [02:31] <annevk4> I'm not really sure <bb> makes a lot of sense and the name is confusing
  167. # [02:31] <Darxus> annevk4: Just figured that out, thanks.
  168. # [02:32] <othermaciej> it's foolish to use such a heavily abbreviated name for an element with such a (relatively) obscure purpose
  169. # [02:33] <annevk4> I suggested (on behalf of someone else) <browserbutton>
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  183. # [03:30] <tantekc> annevk4 - I just took a look at http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/bb.html - and assuming that is close to what the <bb> tag currently means in HTML5, I strongly recommend NOT calling that a <browserbutton>
  184. # [03:31] <tantekc> the term "browser button" is already fairly widely used (Google, Technorati, others) as a less jargony replacement for what is otherwise known as a "bookmarklet" or "favelet"
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  186. # [03:31] <tantekc> http://www.google.com/options/buttons.html
  187. # [03:31] <tantekc> http://technorati.com/tools/favelets.html
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  191. # [03:44] <csarven> <bb> sounds pretty close to <input type="button"> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#push-button
  192. # [03:45] <csarven> At least my understanding of it
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  199. # [04:05] <tantek> csarven - in that case, if it's not clear how it's substantially different from <input type="button"> I would be for dropping the feature from the spec.
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  202. # [04:07] <tantek> (dropping <bb> that is)
  203. # [04:07] <csarven> :)
  204. # [04:14] <csarven> http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/input.button.html#input.button still exists, so, probably best that <bb>'s definition is cleared up, otherwise dropped if it had the same intention as <input type="button">
  205. # [04:16] <csarven> Is there a backlog sort of a document for what (and why) makes it into draft? Not particularly in the mood to track this down in the mailing list =)
  206. # [04:18] <tantek> csarven - I don't think I'm ever in the mood to track something down in a mailing list.
  207. # [04:20] <csarven> I don't know how Hixie manages his emails. That requires mad skills and sanity.
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  210. # [04:49] <othermaciej> <bb> is supposed to be a special button for built-in UA functionality that it's generally believed should be restricted to user actions
  211. # [04:49] <othermaciej> so it's somewhat different than <input type="button"> - may have a custom rendering and its behavior is likely different than a normal button
  212. # [04:49] <othermaciej> but I think an element for that particular slice of functionality is overkill
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  215. # [04:54] <tantekc> othermaciej - is there a wiki page where we can vote down elements?
  216. # [04:55] <othermaciej> tantekc: I don't believe there is
  217. # [04:55] <othermaciej> I think the official way to register your displeasure would be by sending mail to the list
  218. # [04:59] <tantekc> I think I'd prefer to unofficially collect more data before making an official statement
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  221. # [05:14] * MikeSmith makes not to remember to tell tantek that another mechanism is to raise an issue at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=HTML%20WG
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  232. # [06:02] <Darxus> Body elements are a lot easier to define than those in the header. I initially assumed the header would be much easier.
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  236. # [06:15] <Darxus> Er, the page ended. The list of elements didn't.
  237. # [06:15] <Darxus> I am thankful for recursion.
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  259. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I have a big favor to ask
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  263. # [08:53] <Philip`> MikeSmith: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/404.html has wrong charset
  264. # [08:55] <Philip`> (Also, multipage pages don't seem to run the broken-link-fixing script, so if e.g. a block moves from one page to another then links to it won't work)
  265. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I (re)disabled the broken-link-fixing script temporarily
  266. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> because, genius that I am, the makefile change I added that enabled it also had the effect of generating a sort of endless cvs commit loop
  267. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> which by the time I stopped it had robotically committed about 80 updates to the draft
  268. # [09:05] * Joins: harig (n=aparan@59.90.71.35)
  269. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> to do it proper, I will need for Hixie to add <body onload="fixBrokenLink()"> to his W3C Overview.html file
  270. # [09:07] <Philip`> Oh, sounds excellent
  271. # [09:07] <Philip`> It's lucky you were using CVS, rather than a fast modern VCS that would have done millions of commits
  272. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> yeah
  273. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> thank god for the inefficiency of cvs
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  275. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> Philip`: OK, I set UTF-8 as the default charset for the directory
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  295. # [10:33] <Philip`> Hmm, a few days ago I attempted to use lang="" properly, for about the first time ever
  296. # [10:34] <Philip`> and now I discover that although my first use was correct, my second use was an accidentally copied <html lang="tr"> onto an English page
  297. # [10:34] * Philip` apologises for polluting the world of metadata
  298. # [10:38] <Lachy> Philip`, nevermind, at least you have found and corrected your mistake, and order has been restored to the web.
  299. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> "the Web is an unkind mistress"
  300. # [10:42] <Philip`> I also completely forgot to add alt text to some images that really should have them (some plain icons, some icons in links) and the validator didn't remind me at all
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  308. # [11:21] <takkaria> MikeSmith: it's the XML people who want to make it an unkind mistress, right now it doesn't really bother with the mistressing part AFAICT
  309. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> it's a fickle mistress, then
  310. # [11:26] <takkaria> I can live with that
  311. # [11:41] * Philip` thinks something is really broken in his monitor, before realising Opera 10 now has a funky background image on error pages
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  313. # [11:56] <Rik|work> arg, http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ is down :(
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  326. # [12:44] <takkaria> hmm
  327. # [12:44] <takkaria> HTTP headers with q values were a really stupid idea
  328. # [12:45] <takkaria> should just have put things in a comma-separated list in order of preference
  329. # [12:46] <Philip`> Is the idea of "preference" not really stupid?
  330. # [12:47] <Philip`> I can't imagine how a browser developer would decide whether they prefer JPEG or PNG, or whether they prefer HTML or XHTML, etc
  331. # [12:47] <Philip`> since it depends on the content, and that depends on the server and the author and not on the browser
  332. # [12:47] <takkaria> I was thinking about Accept-Language myself
  333. # [12:48] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  334. # [12:48] <takkaria> but yeah, asking them to prefer one format over the other is a bit bizarre
  335. # [12:48] <Philip`> In that case it makes more sense, because users are likely to have preferences, and they use their browser to convey those preferences to the server
  336. # [12:49] <Philip`> (for languages)
  337. # [12:49] <takkaria> yeah, but the q-value bit is still nutty
  338. # [12:49] <annevk4> on top of that content negotiation does not really work
  339. # [12:49] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  340. # [12:57] <gsnedders|work> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/185 really does seem suboptimal in WebKit
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  344. # [13:14] <olliej> gsnedders|work: in the nightly?
  345. # [13:16] * Joins: harig (n=aparan@59.90.71.35)
  346. # [13:16] <gsnedders|work> olliej: In Chromium linux nightly at least
  347. # [13:16] <olliej> gsnedders|work: meh
  348. # [13:17] <gsnedders|work> olliej: I can't test Safari here :P
  349. # [13:17] <olliej> gsnedders|work: poor excuse
  350. # [13:17] <olliej> gsnedders|work: there's epiphany-webkit :P
  351. # [13:17] <gsnedders|work> olliej: But that's not in Ubuntu's repos :P
  352. # [13:17] <olliej> gsnedders|work: which uses real webkit :D
  353. # [13:17] <olliej> gsnedders|work: :p
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  355. # [13:18] <gsnedders|work> olliej: Yeah, I know. I'm just trying to think of what does use WebKit+JSC and is in the repos :P
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  358. # [13:26] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/innerhtml.html hangs with the html5 parser
  359. # [13:29] <annevk4> zcorpan, your progress bar is tag abuse
  360. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> gsnedders|work: you can test WebKit nightlies on Linux using Arora
  361. # [13:29] <gsnedders|work> annevk4: It's not zcorpan'S test
  362. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> gsnedders|work: Qt-based .. it's pretty easy to build
  363. # [13:30] <gsnedders|work> MikeSmith: But that means I can't just reply upon package management to update it ever day ;P
  364. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> gsnedders|work: you update it by running "make" and "make install", as God intended
  365. # [13:33] <gsnedders|work> MikeSmith: I guess I could use a cron to update it
  366. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> gsnedders|work: http://code.google.com/p/arora/wiki/source#Building_with_Trunk
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  370. # [13:54] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: You could switch to Gentoo, and then use www-client/arora
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  373. # [14:19] <zcorpan> has anyone pointed out that DOMFocusIn bubbles while focus doesn't?
  374. # [14:20] <othermaciej> zcorpan: I believe it has been mentioned several times
  375. # [14:20] <othermaciej> I don't think that makes for a usefully distinct use case
  376. # [14:21] <annevk4> there's hardly any use case attached to that though, unless you have event handlers
  377. # [14:21] <othermaciej> non-bubbling is the sensible behavior for foucs
  378. # [14:22] <othermaciej> unlike clicks or mouse moves, a child of element X being focused should generally *not* be treated the same as if element X was focused
  379. # [14:23] <othermaciej> (and yes, nested focus is possible and may not even be entirely useless)
  380. # [14:23] <othermaciej> (consider an area that you can keyboard scroll when it has focus, but which contains form controls which can themselves have focus)
  381. # [14:23] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-64-68.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  382. # [14:23] <annevk4> (or the <video> element)
  383. # [14:24] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-8b971edc7629ca05)
  384. # [14:24] <othermaciej> I think the only plausible argument for DOMFocusIn is if content indeed depends on it
  385. # [14:24] <othermaciej> and I think there's no argument whatsoever for standardizing focusin/focusout
  386. # [14:25] <annevk4> yeah
  387. # [14:25] <annevk4> I'm guessing I'm not going to be happy with the solution; similarly namespace support is still included despite nobody really asking for it
  388. # [14:31] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-192-88.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
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  390. # [14:32] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: Ubuntu has Arora packages, just not with WebKit trunk
  391. # [14:41] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p4102-ipbf2903marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  392. # [14:44] <gsnedders|work> Is there anything apart from @import that takes a URL but not as <uri> in CSS
  393. # [14:45] <gsnedders|work> ?
  394. # [14:48] <othermaciej> annevk4: I thought we dropped namespaced event support long ago
  395. # [14:48] <othermaciej> annevk4: is it really still in there?
  396. # [14:49] <othermaciej> I wish the D3E editor's draft was easily googlable
  397. # [14:51] <annevk4> it is still there http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html
  398. # [14:52] <annevk4> and for some reason the editor seems to assume my comments are in bad faith :/
  399. # [14:52] <annevk4> wtf
  400. # [14:58] <zcorpan> annevk4: do we support the namespaced stuff in opera?
  401. # [14:59] <annevk4> jl made an experimental impl once, I don't think it ever landed
  402. # [14:59] <annevk4> you'd have to check with bratell to be sure though
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  411. # [16:02] <gsnedders|work> http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/a-new-way-forward/
  412. # [16:04] <takkaria> uh?
  413. # [16:04] <takkaria> "The single greatest complaint heard from the standards community concerning the development of HTML5 is that it has not allowed for the scientific process.
  414. # [16:06] * annevk4 wonders what "If your company depends on the Internet and can afford to fund just a small fraction of the work above (minimum $8K grant), then please contact him at msporny@digitalbazaar.com." is about
  415. # [16:13] * Joins: Creap (n=Creap@vemod.brg.sgsnet.se)
  416. # [16:14] <takkaria> Manu seems to have missed the point as to why people in the whatwg list can't join the HTMLWG list
  417. # [16:14] <takkaria> *not all people
  418. # [16:15] <takkaria> and the idea that merging mailing lists will suddenly make people happy is a bizarre one
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  421. # [16:18] <takkaria> and again with the "HTML5 has no distributed extensibility" meme
  422. # [16:18] <takkaria> sheesh
  423. # [16:21] * gsnedders|work reminds himself that replying to that is not a productive use of his time
  424. # [16:22] <takkaria> a fair bit of that makes some interesting proposals
  425. # [16:22] <gsnedders|work> Mostly ones that have been made before, though
  426. # [16:22] <takkaria> but things like "Better, more precise accessibility language for HTML5." do kind of make me want to scream
  427. # [16:23] <takkaria> and saying that the scientific process is being disregarded whilst also saying experts don't get to dictate what happend next
  428. # [16:23] <takkaria> but yeah, responding to this isn't a good use of time
  429. # [16:24] * takkaria goes back to work
  430. # [16:26] <gsnedders|work> I'll reply to it later, probably
  431. # [16:26] * gsnedders|work creates a lynx -dump copy of that file to reply to
  432. # [16:29] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  433. # [16:30] <Lachy> "HTML5 is currently a walled garden that must be opened to the greater standards community in order to ensure a stable framework for the future of the Web." -- http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/a-new-way-forward/
  434. # [16:31] <Lachy> It's ironic that HTML5 has the most open development process compared with any previous HTML spec.
  435. # [16:31] <takkaria> no, see, 1000 people on a mailing list isn't open enough
  436. # [16:31] <takkaria> we need to open it to the experts. :)
  437. # [16:33] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip144.unival.com)
  438. # [16:35] <Lachy> "In a CTC process, as used at the W3C, consensus should be reached before an editor changes a document." - we would never get anything done with that process
  439. # [16:35] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-166-254-27.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  440. # [16:36] <Lachy> we'd get more criticism from people complaining about how the spec has stalled if we adopted a process like that
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  442. # [16:37] <takkaria> he doesn't suggest we move to a CTC model
  443. # [16:38] <takkaria> just that we magic up more committers
  444. # [16:38] <gsnedders|work> Lachy: Well, we can't publish until we have consensus, and I think in terms of time taken there's no difference between getting consensus on changes first and getting consensus after
  445. # [16:43] <annevk4> the HTML5 editor model is not that weird actually
  446. # [16:43] <annevk4> the CSS WG and WebApps WG are also using it
  447. # [16:43] <annevk4> those groups do make group decisions a bit more often than the HTML WG
  448. # [16:43] <Lachy> "it is difficult to tell which parts of the specification are at which level of maturity without deep knowledge of the history of the document" - Now he's just blatently ignoring the status markers we've had for over a year
  449. # [16:44] <annevk4> he might be reading the W3C edition
  450. # [16:44] <Lachy> annevk4, those groups are also smaller and don't have such large and diverse communities forming around them
  451. # [16:45] <annevk4> I'm not sure I'd say that about CSS, but the community there has arguably less of a say
  452. # [16:46] * gsnedders|work wonders why HTML 5 and CSS 3 doesn't
  453. # [16:55] <Lachy> "The issue is that there are currently no proposals for distributed extensibility in HTML5 " - now that's just a blatant lie. He knows full well that the microdata section is in the spec for that. He may not like it as it is, but lying about it not being there doesn't help
  454. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> annevk4: I guess we should try to get the annotations added to the W3C version also
  455. # [17:00] <Darxus> It confused me for a few days that the status markers shown in the demo video weren't in the W3C version, because I wasn't looking at the WHATWG version.
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  457. # [17:08] <zcorpan> demo video?
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  481. # [18:24] <vs-hs> whatwg?
  482. # [18:24] <vs-hs> thelinx: :D
  483. # [18:25] <Lachy> vs-hs, what?
  484. # [18:25] <vs-hs> Lachy: No idea
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  488. # [18:55] <Darxus> The spec has not been written primarilfy for validator implimentors.
  489. # [18:57] <gsnedders|work> The spec hasn't been written primarily for anyone
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  491. # [18:59] <Darxus> The "Contexts in which this element may be used" and "Content model" have very different wording cosidering that they directly correspond to each other.
  492. # [19:00] <Darxus> Maybe change "Contexts in which this element may be used" to "Content models in which this element may be used"
  493. # [19:02] <Darxus> I should just write a parser that converts http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ to schema :P
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  496. # [19:09] <Darxus> <define name="phrasing_content"></define name="phrasing_content"> is invalid xml? :(
  497. # [19:09] <Philip`> Only start tags have attributes
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  499. # [19:10] <gsnedders|work> Darxus: It's invalid in SGML and HTML too.
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  501. # [19:11] <Darxus> Lame.
  502. # [19:11] <Darxus> I just prefer it over
  503. # [19:11] <Darxus> <define name="phrasing_conent">
  504. # [19:12] <Darxus> </define> <!-- end of phrasing_conent -->
  505. # [19:12] <takkaria> most people use indentation. :)
  506. # [19:12] <Darxus> Yeah, but this is for a case where the <define> is several pages long, so I'm not really sure which one I'm adding to without something like the above.
  507. # [19:13] <Darxus> Well, phrasing_contenet isn't that big, but flow_content is.
  508. # [19:13] <Philip`> <phrasing_content>...</phrasing_content>
  509. # [19:13] <Darxus> Philip`: I'd rather more closely follow relax ng.
  510. # [19:14] <gsnedders|work> Darxus: Why not use RelaxNG?
  511. # [19:14] <Darxus> Is xml 1.0 sgml conformant? To make </define name=""> valid xml, would I need to also update the sgml standard?
  512. # [19:14] <gsnedders|work> Darxus: And why not http://syntax.whattf.org/?
  513. # [19:14] <Darxus> gsnedders|work: Because it is not capable of specifying HTML5 to the HTML5 validator conformance requirements.
  514. # [19:14] <gsnedders|work> Darxus: XML 1.0 is a subset of SGML.
  515. # [19:15] <Darxus> gsnedders|work: That sounds like a yes.
  516. # [19:15] <gsnedders|work> Darxus: Sure, but do we need another schema language?
  517. # [19:15] <Darxus> gsnedders|work: If there isn't one that can sufficiently specify HTML5, I think so.
  518. # [19:15] <gsnedders|work> Darxus: Is RelaxNG with Schematron not enough?
  519. # [19:15] <Darxus> gsnedders|work: Yes.
  520. # [19:15] <gsnedders|work> Darxus: In what way?
  521. # [19:16] <Darxus> gsnedders|work: While Henry's thesis index is loading... one example was validating the layout of a table element.
  522. # [19:17] <Darxus> HTML5 requires that a table have, for example, no cells overlapping. No existing schema language can specify that. Henry implimented the requriement in java.
  523. # [19:17] <gsnedders|work> *Henri
  524. # [19:17] <gsnedders|work> Schematron should be able to check that though, I think. hsivonen's point is that you can't do it in any schema language, but Schematron isn't; a schema language.
  525. # [19:18] <Philip`> s/;//
  526. # [19:18] * gsnedders|work doesn't entirely like this keyboard
  527. # [19:19] <Darxus> gsnedders|work: So why, when he was using both relax ng, and schematron, did he impliment some rules in java?
  528. # [19:19] <gsnedders|work> Darxus: Performance.
  529. # [19:19] <Darxus> And... schematron isn't a schema language?
  530. # [19:20] <gsnedders|work> I wouldn't call rule-based validation a schema
  531. # [19:20] <gsnedders|work> But yes, I guess technically it is
  532. # [19:21] <gsnedders|work> Ah, some of the data types can't be expressed in Relax NG apparently
  533. # [19:21] <Darxus> I believe schematron is not capable of sufficiently specifying HTML5. If I am incorrect, I would love to know.
  534. # [19:23] <takkaria> Darxus: you're inventing a schema language so you can write a validator that takes that schema language and uses it?
  535. # [19:23] <gsnedders|work> According to the intro of hsivonen's thesis, it is possible to check everything apart from some data types using RelaxNG+Schematron
  536. # [19:23] <Darxus> Schematron.com's header totally needs to be an svg.
  537. # [19:23] <Darxus> takkaria: That's my plan.
  538. # [19:24] <Darxus> I make no claims at being qualified to impliment this plan, but it entertains me.
  539. # [19:24] <gsnedders|work> Darxus: What do you gain by using a custom schema language to writing it all in code yourself?
  540. # [19:24] <Darxus> gsnedders|work: The ability to then write schemas for other things in that language.
  541. # [19:25] <Darxus> http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2007/01/diagram_comparing_schema_langu.html - ven-ish diagram of schema language capabilities.
  542. # [19:25] * Joins: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  543. # [19:25] <Philip`> Hopefully nothing else in the world is as crazy as HTML5 and needing the same kind of schema language features
  544. # [19:25] <gsnedders|work> Darxus: What do you gain by being able to express data type restrictions in a schema?
  545. # [19:25] <Darxus> It seems like there should be a schema language that contains all of them plus the ability to validate HTML5.
  546. # [19:25] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: Atom Syndication Format can't be expressed in any either, AFAIK
  547. # [19:25] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: Actually, that's untrue.
  548. # [19:26] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: It isn't expressed fully by the included RelaxNG schema.
  549. # [19:26] <Darxus> gsnedders|work: Also, hopefully it would make it easier to update an HTML5 validator for HTML5.1.
  550. # [19:26] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: But you can express it fully if you combine that with Schematron
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  552. # [19:26] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: I assume it doesn't need the ability to e.g. express table constraints, though
  553. # [19:26] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: But that still doesn't limit atom:updated, atom:published, etc. to being valid dates
  554. # [19:27] <gsnedders|work> Oooo! Tests have finished running!
  555. # [19:27] * gsnedders|work goes back to work
  556. # [19:28] <inimino> Darxus: what happens if HTML5.1 adds new conformance criteria that are inexpressible in the new language?
  557. # [19:28] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: You need to write more tests, so you can spend more time on IRC waiting for them to finish
  558. # [19:28] <Darxus> inimino: Then I extend the new language.
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  561. # [19:38] <Darxus> A machine readable version of the HTML5 spec would be much more difficult if it were not for recursion.
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  580. # [20:45] <ap> Hixie: is the idea of using Upgrade header for WebSocket based on something web servers can do today? We're adding test infrastructure for WebSocket now, and I wonder if we can make it work inside Apache easily
  581. # [20:48] <gsnedders|work> ap: I think I heard someone talking about an Apache module for it
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  585. # [20:50] <ap> gsnedders|work: googling suggests more like "venting about the lack of thereof", http://www.pmsenthilkumar.blogspot.com/2009/07/apaches-html5-websocket-conundrum.html :)
  586. # [20:51] * jwalden needs to get around to writing a websocket server
  587. # [20:51] <gsnedders|work> ap: I mean about actually writing one themselves :)
  588. # [20:52] <ap> jwalden: we have an initial version at https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=27490 - not integrated with Apache in any way, though
  589. # [20:53] <jwalden> ap: I think the initial plan is for me to hack our web server enough to be able to implement the parsing, although it would also be lax and accept HTTP-style constructs that aren't also websocket
  590. # [20:53] <jwalden> eventually want something super-strict to throw out ill-formed inputs, tho
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  596. # [21:26] <Darxus> Hah, HTML5 can't be valid XML because it doesn't allow associating a DTD. Which is required for valid XML.
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  599. # [21:29] <ttepass-> Darxus, <!DOCTYPE html> is a valid doctype declaration per XML, isn't it?
  600. # [21:31] <Darxus> ttepass-: It is a valid doctype, but XML is not valid if it does not specify (and validate with) a DTD.
  601. # [21:31] <takkaria> it's still wellformed, though, and you can still validate it. :)
  602. # [21:32] <ttepass-> Ah: ?Note that it is possible to construct a well-formed document containing a doctypedecl that neither points to an external subset nor contains an internal subset.?
  603. # [21:32] <Darxus> "The XML Recommendation says that an XML document is 'valid' if it has an associated document type declaration and if the document complies with the constraints expressed in it."
  604. # [21:33] <Darxus> takkaria: Yes you can validate it against another schema but that still, apparently, makes it invalid xml.
  605. # [21:33] <takkaria> it doesn't make it invalid
  606. # [21:33] <Darxus> Quote from http://perl-xml.sourceforge.net/faq/ section 6.
  607. # [21:33] <takkaria> it just means that it's neither valid nor invalid
  608. # [21:33] <Darxus> I'm looking for the wording in the XML Recommendation.
  609. # [21:34] <ttepass-> Darxus, section 2.8:
  610. # [21:34] <ttepass-> [Definition: An XML document is valid if it has an associated document type declaration and if the document complies with the constraints expressed in it.]
  611. # [21:35] <Darxus> "An XML document is valid if it has an associated document type declaration and if the document complies with the constraints expressed in it" - http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/ section 2.8
  612. # [21:35] <Darxus> Yeah...
  613. # [21:35] <Darxus> I interpret that as meaning that it is invalid without specifying a DTD.
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  615. # [21:37] <takkaria> I think you're misinterpreting
  616. # [21:38] <takkaria> it would be silly to make documents without a DTD invalid, since having a DTD is optional
  617. # [21:40] <Philip`> Is there any reason to prefer <html dir=rtl> over/under <style>html { direction: rtl }</style> ?
  618. # [21:40] <Darxus> Wow, validator.w3.org won't do just xml?
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  620. # [21:42] * maikmerten is now known as maik|afk
  621. # [21:43] <annevk2> Philip`, style sheets are optional
  622. # [21:44] <ttepass-> Non-CSS-user agents one would think. Like a search engine which want's to display the first n sentences and needs directionality for display.
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  624. # [21:45] <cying> dear whatwg
  625. # [21:45] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-197-9.bredband.comhem.se)
  626. # [21:45] <cying> when a video element is appended to the DOM, should it trigger a load event?
  627. # [21:47] <gsnedders> cying: A load event on what?
  628. # [21:47] <cying> gsnedders: on the video element
  629. # [21:47] <gsnedders> cying: That'll fire once the video is loaded, no?
  630. # [21:47] <cying> http://satine.org/research/webkit/tests/video-events.html
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  632. # [21:48] <Rik|work> cying: how does it behave on firefox ?
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  634. # [21:48] <cying> Rik|work: ah i should try that
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  642. # [22:34] <Darxus> Parse::Simple is upsetting me: "Entity 'lt' not defined".
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  644. # Session Close: Fri Jul 24 00:00:00 2009

The end :)