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- # Session Start: Fri Jul 24 00:00:00 2009
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [00:42] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
- # [00:42] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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- # [02:44] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
- # [02:44] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
- # [02:58] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
- # [03:00] <MikeSmith> other than html5lib parse.py and xmllint, anybody know of command-line tools that can take HTML and output well-formed XHTML/XML from it?
- # [03:01] <heycam> MikeSmith, "and" has very low precedence
- # [03:01] <heycam> but operates the same as "&&"
- # [03:01] <MikeSmith> heycam: I see
- # [03:02] <heycam> it's intended to string whole statements together
- # [03:02] <MikeSmith> so for my case it doesn't matter, because there are just two parts of the expression
- # [03:02] <MikeSmith> - if ($File->{Opt}->{FB}->{Charset}) { # charset fallback mode
- # [03:02] <MikeSmith> + if ($File->{Opt}->{FB}->{Charset} and $File->{DOCTYPE} ne "HTML5") { # charset fallback mode
- # [03:03] <heycam> yeah shouldn't matter
- # [03:03] <heycam> though i'd go with && stylistically there
- # [03:03] * MikeSmith didn't test that and just hopes that's actually correct perl syntax
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- # [03:03] <MikeSmith> heycam: OK
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- # [03:04] <MikeSmith> nessy, heycam : guess it's gotten pretty cold down there?
- # [03:04] <MikeSmith> Tokyo like a steam bath the last couple days
- # [03:04] <heycam> yeah, though yesterday and today have seen a bit of sun
- # [03:04] <heycam> (here in melb at least)
- # [03:04] <MikeSmith> heycam: you missing that 45 degree summer yet?
- # [03:05] <heycam> hah yep, i could do with a baking
- # [03:05] <MikeSmith> I hope I can get back to melbourne sometime soon
- # [03:05] <MikeSmith> and Hobart
- # [03:05] <MikeSmith> and other places
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- # [03:06] <MikeSmith> we should have some WG f2f in Hobart
- # [03:07] <heycam> sounds good to me. sitting outside, summertime in salamanca place...
- # [03:07] <MikeSmith> yeah
- # [03:07] * MikeSmith wonders if BeautifulSoup has a command-line tool bundled
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- # [03:28] <Darxus> MikeSmith: Ohh, what are you doing with that bit of code?
- # [03:31] <MikeSmith> Darxus: making the HTML5 facet of validator.w3.org not incorrectly check and warn about missing encoding info that's not actually missing
- # [03:32] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7135
- # [03:32] <Darxus> Cool.
- # [03:34] <Darxus> MikeSmith: That's based on validator.nu, right? Will you be sending him patches?
- # [03:36] <MikeSmith> Darxus: the cause is not in the v.nu code, but instead the validator.w3.org perl cgi thing
- # [03:36] <MikeSmith> different maintainer
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- # [03:55] <MikeSmith> Darxus: if you have perl chops and interest in helping with the W3C validator, I think your help would be welcom
- # [03:55] <MikeSmith> *welcome
- # [03:56] <MikeSmith> same goes for v.nu, though that's mostly Java code, with some python wrapper stuff
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- # [04:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie: when you have a minute, about that big favor I need..
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- # [04:01] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i need to have dinner, and i'm still finishing up e-mail backlog from the past few days
- # [04:02] <MikeSmith> OK
- # [04:02] <MikeSmith> no rush
- # [04:02] <Hixie> but i'll be online later tonight and ready to go on all cylinders
- # [04:02] <MikeSmith> cool
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- # [04:08] <MikeSmith> all right, finally some solid science
- # [04:08] <MikeSmith> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=mindless-collectives-rational-decision-making
- # [04:08] <Darxus> MikeSmith: I.. am working on validation. In a... less sane way. :)
- # [04:08] <Darxus> Thanks.
- # [04:17] <tantek> MikeSmith - note that scientificamerican article studies (and thus concludes) about ant colonies picking from one of a few artificial nests as potential homes.
- # [04:17] <tantek> not something I would generalize to humans, nor to anything that requires anything more than a simple economic multiple choice question/answer, e.g. design, innovation etc.
- # [04:18] <tantek> or even art for that matter.
- # [04:18] <MikeSmith> tantek: yeah, I was forwarding it in the same spirit in which Bil Corry posted it (on the whatwg list)
- # [04:19] <tantek> I'd like to see a study on how many people errantly draw overgeneralized conclusions from the title of an article rather than read it for its actual limited contents / claims.
- # [04:22] <tantek> s/title/headline
- # [04:22] <MikeSmith> I find it more fun to just assume overgeneralized conclusions and pretend it has some relevance
- # [04:22] <MikeSmith> greater entertainment value there
- # [04:23] <tantek> I wonder if there is a name for the phenomenon of people errantly drawing overgeneralized conclusions from the headline of an article.
- # [04:23] <MikeSmith> I bet there is.
- # [04:24] <MikeSmith> I wish that I had studied sociology more in university, rather than just making fun of the people who were wasting their time studying it.
- # [04:25] <MikeSmith> I learned more about whatever field of study it is that most closely relates to interactions of people in distributed discussions.
- # [04:26] <MikeSmith> s/I learned/Or learned/
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- # [04:30] <MikeSmith> the last paragraph of the article has a really nice sentence: "You might do better with a strategically limited set of information."
- # [04:31] <MikeSmith> "strategically limiting your set of information" sounds like a great euphemism for narrow-mindedness and dogmatism
- # [04:31] <tantek> the key is focus
- # [04:32] <Darxus> I have, so far, managed to ignore that "new way forward" thing.
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- # [04:35] <MikeSmith> New Way Forward seems like it would be a great name of the fascist political party I'm trying to get started.
- # [04:36] <MikeSmith> I was considering the Actually Backward Looking, Reactionary Fear-Mongering Party
- # [04:37] <MikeSmith> but New Way Forward is shorter
- # [04:38] <tantek> MikeSmith, re: focus, see also, Paradox of Choice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_theory#Paradox_of_choice
- # [04:39] <tantek> (and re: New Way Forward, I think Sam Ruby's response handled that thread quite well)
- # [04:41] <MikeSmith> tantek: yeah, I think in general Sam's handling discussions on the public-html list really well
- # [04:41] <tantek> and as far as that phenomenon is concerned, lacking a better (or previous) name, I'm going to call it "headline fixation" - borrowing from (and a special case of) target fixation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_fixation
- # [04:42] <Darxus> Heh.
- # [04:42] <MikeSmith> tantek: especially as far as helping to guide people toward taking specific action to get a resolution
- # [04:42] <MikeSmith> I like "headline fixation"
- # [04:44] <MikeSmith> tantek: so about Paradox of Choice, I guess I should have studied game theory more. instead of, say, differential equations (which I have zero use for now)
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- # [05:36] <Darxus> I think I may have found a bug in XML::Twig :/
- # [05:38] * Hixie writes an essay on feature strings being useless
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- # [08:23] * Mrmil cannot find a usage of a regular expression that changes html tags (and attributes but without values) from uppercase to lowercase
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- # [08:38] <Hixie> MikeSmith: here now
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- # [08:40] <MikeSmith> Hixie: sorry, I was out for a bit too. but now I got to pack up and leave again shortly to head to Yokohama for a while. I'll ping you again after I get on the train
- # [08:40] <MikeSmith> hopefully I can get a seat
- # [08:40] <Hixie> k
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- # [09:00] <zcorpan> http://johndyer.name/post/2009/07/21/HTML5-XHTML5-Validation-Schema-for-Visual-Studio-2008.aspx
- # [09:01] <Hixie> neat
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- # [09:18] <shepazu> Hixie: what are the main points you think I should touch on in my presentation on HTML to an XML audience?
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- # [09:18] <shepazu> or anyone, really
- # [09:21] <Hixie> hmm
- # [09:21] <Hixie> depends on the audience, mostly. are these developers, standards-heads, managers..?
- # [09:22] <tantek> shepazu - there's such a thing as an XML audience? do they stop listening as soon as you make the first grammatical error in your speech? 1/2 ;)
- # [09:24] <shepazu> tantek: I think they will stop listening to me long before that :)
- # [09:26] <shepazu> Hixie: I think the audience will largely be from the DocBook/DITA/XSLT DTP sector
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- # [09:26] <shepazu> I've spoken at this conference before, though it had a different name... probably the same crowd
- # [09:27] <shepazu> there are some developers in the audience, too
- # [09:27] <shepazu> http://www.aboveandbeyondlearning.com/xmlspeakerpres.html
- # [09:27] <Hixie> hm wow, i don't know much about that crowd
- # [09:28] <Hixie> i guess things to hit on:
- # [09:28] <Hixie> XHTML5 is a pure-XML dialect, so it can work with the whole XML pipeline
- # [09:28] <Hixie> namespaces, can be used with schema languages, etc
- # [09:28] <shepazu> right, got that
- # [09:29] <Hixie> what else, hm
- # [09:29] <shepazu> I'm going to talk about the misconceptions about XHTML (serving it as text/html, etc)
- # [09:29] <shepazu> how HTML5 clarifies that
- # [09:30] <Hixie> yeah, that might be useful. using the mime types to define what the processing is, rather than the doctypes, etc
- # [09:30] <shepazu> yes, got that
- # [09:30] <Hixie> hsivonen would probably tell you to mention that you can fit text/html parsers onto the front end of an XML pipeline and it's actually compatible
- # [09:30] <Hixie> so that you can treat text/html as XML for the purposes of XML processing
- # [09:30] <shepazu> (mind you, this is 1.5 hours, so I can ramble quite a lot
- # [09:31] <Hixie> and same on the output side
- # [09:31] <Hixie> if you have any authors in the crowd, i find the biggest wows come from demoing <input type=date> and <input type=color>
- # [09:31] <Hixie> ironically
- # [09:31] <Hixie> (and then <canvas>)
- # [09:31] <shepazu> are there any print-specific things about HTML5 that might interest them (or even new stuff from CSS)?
- # [09:32] <Hixie> hmm...
- # [09:32] <Hixie> can't think of any off-hand
- # [09:32] <Hixie> <section> might be of interest to the DocBook crowd
- # [09:32] <Hixie> and the rest of the new sectioning elements might either make them laugh or scare them or, if we're lucky, interest them
- # [09:32] <shepazu> ah, interesting tip about input types, I'll definitely include that, I think people interested in document flows would be interested in input validation and enforcement
- # [09:33] <shepazu> yes, good point
- # [09:33] <shepazu> any good demos/synopsis of the sectioning elements?
- # [09:34] <shepazu> also, are there any good resources that tell which things are implemented in which browsers?
- # [09:34] <Hixie> http://html5gallery.com/ has a number of sites using the new elements that actually look pretty
- # [09:34] <Hixie> unlike anything i could ever do
- # [09:35] <Hixie> #html5gallery on twitter if you want to reach out to them
- # [09:35] <Hixie> er, s/#/@/
- # [09:35] <Hixie> as for what's implemented where, i gotta admit to not knowing what's shipped, i have enough trouble tracking the trunk builds. but there's a wiki page about that, let me see...
- # [09:35] <shepazu> tantek: with an HTML5, should I expect that the microphone would correct any grammatical errors before they hear them?
- # [09:35] <Hixie> shepazu: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Implementations_in_Web_browsers
- # [09:35] <Hixie> dunno how accurate it is
- # [09:36] <Hixie> but it might help
- # [09:36] <shepazu> s/HTML5/HTML5 audience/
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- # [09:36] <tantek> shepazu, depends if you speak into the microphone labeled "text/html" or the one labeled "application/xhtml+xml"
- # [09:36] <Hixie> shepazu: last year i gave this terrible talk that might give you some ideas http://www.whatwg.org/demos/2008-sept/
- # [09:37] <shepazu> is anyone besides FF/henri implementing the parser stuff? I think that will be of interest to XML people
- # [09:37] <shepazu> I don't know if my presentation will be videoed, but if so, I'll share it along
- # [09:38] <shepazu> and of course I'll put the slides up, for other folks who might want to stripmine them for any content
- # [09:38] <Hixie> there's a bunch of parser implementations, dunno how many of them have XML backends
- # [09:39] <Hixie> html5lib has at least a python build, i think there's php and ruby builds too, dunno how up to date
- # [09:39] <shepazu> I'm specifically thinking of major browsers
- # [09:39] <Hixie> there's a c implementation that iirc takkaria is working on
- # [09:39] <Hixie> of the "major" browsers currently only mozilla is doing anything
- # [09:39] <Hixie> the others are watching with amused interest, i think :-)
- # [09:40] <Hixie> one of those "wow, you're brave. let's see how it goes with you before we try _that_ trick."
- # [09:40] <shepazu> with the idea of text/html parsers plugged into XML pipelines, are there any production-quality systems I can mention?
- # [09:40] <Hixie> (mozilla had the most to gain from replacing the parser of the major browsers, i think)
- # [09:40] <Hixie> (except maybe IE)
- # [09:40] <Hixie> (but IE also has the most to lose, so...)
- # [09:41] <Hixie> shepazu: henri's is production-quality as i understand it, at least for Java environments
- # [09:41] <shepazu> I think that the Moz implementation feedback will be pretty valuable
- # [09:41] <Hixie> not sure what the state of other impls is
- # [09:41] <shepazu> Hixie: and is that available from Validator.nu?
- # [09:41] <Hixie> i think so, not sure
- # [09:41] * shepazu looks
- # [09:43] <shepazu> I think this will definitely be a "tools" crowd
- # [09:43] <shepazu> you think henri will be around this weekend?
- # [09:43] <shepazu> henri's a very tooly guy
- # [09:44] <Hixie> dunno, i've been offline for a few days so i'm not sure where everyone is
- # [09:44] <shepazu> I should probably throw in statistics about the relative use of HTML and XHTML
- # [09:44] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
- # [09:44] <Hixie> depends if you want to depress them or not :-P
- # [09:44] <shepazu> well... they need some tough love :)
- # [09:45] <shepazu> btw, Hixie, I'm not ignoring your request for better wording of events in DOM3 Events, though I've not done much on that... I will probably get to it around the middle of next month
- # [09:46] <Hixie> cool
- # [09:46] <Hixie> no rush on that front from my side
- # [09:46] <Hixie> what's the news on mutation events?
- # [09:46] <shepazu> well... here's my opinion on it
- # [09:47] <shepazu> I think they should be deprecated (and the current draft does that) but I only want to deprecate them in favor of something else that solves the use cases (hopefully better)
- # [09:47] <shepazu> you probably saw the ideas about a non-event-based API for detecting changes
- # [09:47] <Hixie> yeah
- # [09:48] <shepazu> so, I'm hoping we can get that going before D3E goes to CR
- # [09:48] <Hixie> cool, ok
- # [09:48] <shepazu> so I can point to it, and say, do this instead
- # [09:48] <Hixie> i'll probably keep html5 silent about mutation events into last call, then, and argue that i'm just waiting for d3e before addressing that. sounds good.
- # [09:49] <Hixie> how about user interaction events like clicks and mouseover and keydown and stuff; do we have anyone working on a solid spec for that?
- # [09:49] <Philip`> shepazu: You should do a graphical demonstration of relative use of HTML of XHTML - take a picture like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wembley_enggermatch.jpg and the players represent application/xhtml+xml and the crowd represents text/html
- # [09:49] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
- # [09:49] <shepazu> I'm particularly worried about ARIA's use of Mutation Events, since that is the one instance where you need a fast, responsive interface... where they don't have multiple streams of feedback telling them that they did or did not accomplish their task
- # [09:49] <Philip`> (That matches the numbers from MAMA, I think)
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- # [09:50] <Hixie> shepazu: send them last call comments, they're in last call now iirc. still got a chance to get them to fix it. :-)
- # [09:50] <shepazu> Hixie: already done, and I've already explained my concerns and possible ways forward with them
- # [09:50] <Hixie> cool
- # [09:51] <shepazu> I don't think they like the idea now, but they will...
- # [09:51] <Hixie> heh
- # [09:51] <shepazu> Hixie: I believe that the UI events are going to be in D3E... they are now, and I have plans to explicate them... why, you think they should be split out?
- # [09:52] <shepazu> Philip`: heh... that's pretty good
- # [09:52] <Hixie> i don't mean the events themselves so much as the prose that defines how when the mouse moves past the edge of a CSS block you fire mouseout then mouseenter, them mousemove as it moves, them mousedown as the first button goes down, etc
- # [09:52] <Hixie> the real nitty gritty
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- # [09:52] <Hixie> i might just be out of date with what d3e says
- # [09:52] <Hixie> last i checked it just listed the events with vague descriptions of when they fired
- # [09:53] <shepazu> Hixie: yes, I'd intended on including that, along with diagrams of sequences
- # [09:53] <Hixie> but that was a while back
- # [09:53] <Hixie> ok
- # [09:53] <Hixie> cool
- # [09:53] <shepazu> where can I get the MAMA numbers... I'd like some hard figures
- # [09:53] <Philip`> shepazu: http://devfiles.myopera.com/articles/554/mamaurlset-mimehistogram.htm
- # [09:53] <Philip`> via http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-http-headers/
- # [09:54] <shepazu> Hixie: this was my first very rough pass at better prose: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-event-click
- # [09:56] <shepazu> I plan to have expository sections that describe mousedown/mouseup/click/dblclick, mousemove/mouseover/mousemove/mouseout, keydown/keypress/keyup/textInput, etc...
- # [09:56] <shepazu> with shiny diagrams
- # [09:56] <shepazu> breakdowns of related event flows
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- # [09:57] <Hixie> shepazu: looks like a good step in the right direction. not sure i like the "may"s, they seem overly vague (e.g. the one about mousedown and mouseup -- seems like that should be defined more precisely), but i haven't done the research to really tell you what it should say, so i dunno
- # [09:57] <shepazu> ah, yeah, and I did add mouseenter and mouseleave
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- # [09:57] <shepazu> yeah, still rough, I'll get more precise
- # [09:58] <shepazu> I've got a good team of folks doing research for me
- # [09:58] <Hixie> cool
- # [09:58] <shepazu> Jacob, the intern at MS, is really great, too bad he'll be leaving next month :(
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- # [09:59] <shepazu> but Olli, Dan, Travis, and others are all kicking ass
- # [09:59] <Hixie> i don't want to minimise their work, but don't underestimate the value of personal experience with this stuff :-)
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- # [10:00] <shepazu> oh, I'm also doing my own tests, but... you know, hours in the day
- # [10:01] <Hixie> been there! :-)
- # [10:01] <Philip`> Switch to a 25-hour day, and then you'll have more time
- # [10:01] <shepazu> they also think of things I never would have, and develop methodologies that let me just check the work rather than do it all myself
- # [10:01] <Philip`> (Well, more time per day)
- # [10:01] <shepazu> Philip`: many thanks for the pointers!
- # [10:02] <shepazu> Philip`: any thoughts yourself on what would interest you in such a presentation?
- # [10:03] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-55-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
- # [10:03] <Philip`> shepazu: I don't think I've got any useful thoughts - I tend not to find presentations interesting at all :-)
- # [10:05] <shepazu> heh
- # [10:09] <shepazu> thanks for the help and pointers, Hixie
- # [10:09] <Hixie> np
- # [10:09] <Hixie> wish i could help more, but i'm not really good with the PR stuff :-/
- # [10:09] <Hixie> i hate giving talks and demos and stuff like that
- # [10:10] <shepazu> I now need to create/find good summaries of the sectioning stuff, and steal a demo of <input type=foo>
- # [10:10] <Hixie> type=date in particular, and type=color if anyone's implemented it yet
- # [10:10] <Hixie> the others don't get quite so the wow as type=color
- # [10:10] <Hixie> i dunno why
- # [10:11] <shepazu> I get petrified when giving presentations, which is odd since I'm normally extroverted and outspoken
- # [10:11] <Hixie> i've always thought type=range was the coolest addition in the <input types>
- # [10:11] <Hixie> huh, that's weird. oddly once i'm up there i'm fine, i just hate the before and the after.
- # [10:11] <Hixie> the preparation, the not knowing if what i will say or have said was even remotely interesting
- # [10:12] <shepazu> that's how I am when I'm acting (I'm fine once I'm up there), but not presentations
- # [10:12] <Hixie> huh
- # [10:12] <Hixie> maybe make the presentations into acts :-)
- # [10:12] <shepazu> that might be it... plays are scripted, and rehearsed... maybe I just need to be more disciplined about my prep
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- # [10:13] <Hixie> rehearsal for talks help immensely
- # [10:13] <Hixie> though you feel like quite the tool rehearsing a talk
- # [10:13] <Hixie> or at least, i do
- # [10:13] <shepazu> anyway, I'm only ever a bit player on stage, but in presentations, all eyes are on me
- # [10:13] <Hixie> could be that too
- # [10:14] <shepazu> yes, I feel like an idiot rehearsing talks... I'm like, "well, I know all this already!"
- # [10:16] <Philip`> shepazu: Just remember that most people's eyes are on their laptops rather than you, and you won't feel so much pressure
- # [10:16] <shepazu> Philip`: true :)
- # [10:17] <shepazu> oh, Hixie, which parts of HTML5 come from XHTML2... is it just some of the sectioning elements?
- # [10:18] <Hixie> "come from" may be overstating it, but areas where xhtml2 influenced the html5 design include:
- # [10:18] <Hixie> <section>/<h1>
- # [10:18] <Hixie> <nav>
- # [10:18] <Hixie> xforms in general influenced a lot of the webforms 2 additions
- # [10:18] <Hixie> rdfa influenced microdata a lot
- # [10:19] <Hixie> <a href=""> being allowed around flow (blocks) was a response of sorts to xhtml2's href=""-everywhere idea
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- # [10:20] <shepazu> what about xforms was reflected in wf2?
- # [10:20] <shepazu> the data typing...
- # [10:20] <Hixie> almost all the original wf2 features were basically trying to demonstrate that xforms could be done in text/html
- # [10:21] <Hixie> so the new controls, the client-side validation
- # [10:21] <Hixie> some of them didn't make it into html5 proper -- we junked the repetition model, the <select> and <form> autofill
- # [10:21] <Hixie> various other things
- # [10:22] <Hixie> in all these cases, xhtml2, xforms, etc, were but some of many other sources of input, which is why i'm being guarded about saying "come from" as such
- # [10:22] <Hixie> i don't mean to minimise their impact on html5
- # [10:22] <shepazu> sure, I was just being loose with my wording
- # [10:24] <shepazu> I think I heard that there was more of a direct integration of some XHTML2 (the core language) stuff into HTML5
- # [10:24] <Hixie> not really. the most direct integration was <section>/<h> which became <section>/<h1>
- # [10:24] <Hixie> i think
- # [10:25] <Hixie> it was so long ago that i may have forgotten some key aspect of xhtml2 that forms the basis of all of html5 :-)
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- # [10:30] <shepazu> heh
- # [10:30] <shepazu> well, surely it's the distributed extensibility :)
- # [10:30] <Hixie> nah, we have both forms of that that xhtml2 had, i think
- # [10:31] <Hixie> at least we have the namespaces and the annotation extensions (through microdata)
- # [10:31] <Hixie> xhtml2 may have had some m12n extension mechanism that i didn't understand
- # [10:31] <Hixie> in which case we don't have that
- # [10:31] <Hixie> from what shane says there's some key part of that that is important in a way i don't follow
- # [10:32] <Philip`> HTML5 has lots of distributed extensibility - you can describe a feature in an email or blog post or comment or tweet or anything, anywhere on the internet, and Hixie will see it and if it's good then he'll extend the spec to include it
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- # [10:35] <Philip`> Hixie: I imagined (based on little understanding) the importance was that m12n specified a specific mechanism for specifying a language that's based on XHTML, whereas the HTML5 approach is that you can write your own spec and normatively reference HTML5 (and then get implementers and users to adopt your new spec) and there's no guidance as to how to do that easily or cleanly or safely
- # [10:37] * Philip` wonders if that's anywhere even vaguely near correct
- # [10:37] <Hixie> if that is correct, then it sounds like the kind of extensibility mechanism that we want to avoid... but then again, i apparently missed the memo on extensibility being key to world peace or whatever it is that makes everyone so eager to have it these days
- # [10:37] <MikeSmith> shepazu: fwiw, there's a list here that I was drafting for something else
- # [10:38] <MikeSmith> http://people.w3.org/mike/html5/implementations.txt
- # [10:39] <MikeSmith> some of it is not accurate as far as the browser details
- # [10:39] <MikeSmith> probably
- # [10:39] <MikeSmith> I mean the implementation status part
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- # [10:40] <MikeSmith> I would think XML-oriented/doc people would be as much interested in that as anybody else would be
- # [10:43] <shepazu> MikeSmith: cool, thanks!
- # [10:44] <MikeSmith> shepazu: and I got a few different sets of slides -
- # [10:44] <MikeSmith> http://www.slideshare.net/sideshowbarker/presentations
- # [10:44] <MikeSmith> again, fwiw
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- # [10:45] <shepazu> sweet
- # [10:45] <shepazu> MikeSmith: you know of any good examples of input types?
- # [10:45] <MikeSmith> note that for Slideshare stuff, if you scroll down, it gives you the text
- # [10:45] <shepazu> oh, nice.
- # [10:45] <MikeSmith> shepazu: Hixie got some demos
- # [10:46] <MikeSmith> http://www.slideshare.net/sideshowbarker/html5-and-xhtml2 might be relevant for this talk
- # [10:50] <MikeSmith> shepazu: note that I have a video clip of Doug Crockford in that presentation, but think it doesn't play there
- # [10:50] <MikeSmith> it's him saying, "I've discovered that most of the world's body of JavaScript programs is crap."
- # [10:52] <Lachy> I don't understand JF's claim that accessibility experts were not consulted on accessibility issues in the spec. If the WAI PFWG and all those accessibility advocates who've mailed the list with their feedback don't count, then I'm not sure what would.
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- # [10:53] <Lachy> perhaps he's confusing consultation with acceptance-without-debate
- # [10:54] <shepazu> MikeSmith: I need to get my ass to bed, but if you could scare up a nice demo of the input types and email me, I'd be much obliged
- # [10:56] <MikeSmith> shepazu: http://www.whatwg.org/demos/2008-sept/
- # [10:56] <MikeSmith> and there is stuff at html5demos.com
- # [10:57] <MikeSmith> hmm, or maybe not
- # [10:57] <MikeSmith> http://html5demos.com/
- # [10:57] <MikeSmith> (not fo the <input> stuff)
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- # [11:15] <olliej> MikeSmith: i believe safari 4 supports offline notification
- # [11:15] <olliej> MikeSmith: it's kind of necessary for the app cache
- # [11:15] <olliej> :D
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- # [11:29] <MikeSmith> olliej: thanks -- added Safari there
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- # [12:15] <annevk4> oops
- # [12:16] <annevk4> my initial email was correct :/
- # [12:16] <annevk4> just elementFromPoint + offsets would do the trick
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- # [12:36] * annevk4 wonders if Manu at this point is just spreading FUD or doesn't know better
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- # [13:09] <gsnedders|work> "The following HTML elements have varying levels of special parsing rules: address, area, article, aside, base, basefont, bgsound, blockquote, body, br, center, col, colgroup, command, datagrid, dd, details, dialog, dir, div, dl, dt, embed, fieldset, figure, footer, form, frame, frameset, h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, head, header, hgroup, hr, iframe, img, input, isindex, li, link, listing, menu, meta, nav, noembed, noframes, noscript, ol, p, param,
- # [13:09] <gsnedders|work> plaintext, pre, script, section, select, spacer, style, tbody, textarea, tfoot, thead, title, tr, ul, and wbr."
- # [13:09] <gsnedders|work> That really does say it all.
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- # [13:52] <annevk4> I wonder if anyone notices the small contradiction in my latest email
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- # [13:58] <zcorpan> annevk2: your latest email doesn't make any sense
- # [13:59] <annevk4> that's too bad
- # [13:59] <annevk4> I was trying to say something useful
- # [14:00] <annevk4> zcorpan, having read it again, what do you mean?
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- # [14:10] <zcorpan> annevk2: you're saying that ultimately, lots of people have the final say
- # [14:12] <annevk4> if they're unanimous
- # [14:12] <annevk4> or close to
- # [14:12] <annevk4> witness axis from HTML4
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- # [15:03] <Lachy> http://hey-it.com/download.html
- # [15:04] <Lachy> --> "Wanna get laid? Fuck IE6!" :-)
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- # [15:08] <Mrmil> Amen.
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- # [15:51] <gsnedders|work> Why am I so hungry today!?
- # [16:01] <Lachy> gsnedders|work, have you eaten anything? That's usually the problem when I ask myself that question.
- # [16:02] <gsnedders|work> Lachy: I had my normal, large, lunch.
- # [16:07] * gsnedders|work is tempted to go into town and buy a second large lunch
- # [16:08] <gsnedders|work> I guess it must be the lack of fika :P
- # [16:15] <Lachy> what's fika?
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- # [17:17] <annevk2> why is the author of posts on the WHATWG blog hidden nowadays?
- # [17:19] <gsnedders|work> annevk2: Because we reverted to the default Kubrick theme
- # [17:19] <Philip`> Why does the WHATWG blog say <p style="display: none"> <a href="http://beowulf.ulakbim.gov.tr/dokuman/bin.php?p=once-upon-a-time-in-the-west">download full movie once upon a time in the west</a> ... ?
- # [17:19] <Philip`> I'm sure that's not in the default theme
- # [17:19] <annevk2> didn't ben once made a design?
- # [17:19] <gsnedders|work> Dunno
- # [17:20] <annevk2> Philip`, we've been haaked?
- # [17:20] <Philip`> annevk2: Yes
- # [17:20] <gsnedders|work> Again?
- # [17:20] <Philip`> annevk2: (again)
- # [17:20] <annevk2> good times
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- # [17:20] <annevk2> i hope we make backups of data
- # [17:23] <svl> wordpress 2.8.2 fixed a very commonly used vulnerability which allowed such ad injection. Since whatwg is still on 2.8.1, I'd suggest upgrading.
- # [17:24] * Philip` wonders (again) how hard can it be to write secure blog software
- # [17:25] <svl> (And then change all the passwords of everyone who has access, since I believe this particular one worked by stealing that.)
- # [17:26] <gsnedders|work> How can they steal passwords? Upon logging in?
- # [17:26] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: Have you looked at the mess that is WP's codebase?
- # [17:27] * gsnedders|work votes for moving the blog to Habari :P
- # [17:27] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: I haven't
- # [17:27] * inimino has looked, sadly
- # [17:27] * inimino suggests using anything that is not WP
- # [17:27] * gsnedders|work isn't on the PMC of Habari or anything
- # [17:27] <gsnedders|work> Use Habari!
- # [17:27] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: That just changes the question to how hard can it be to write blog secure that isn't such a mess that it can't be secured :-)
- # [17:28] <Philip`> Uh
- # [17:28] <Philip`> s/secure//
- # [17:28] <Philip`> No
- # [17:28] <Philip`> s/secure/software/
- # [17:28] <Philip`> Close enough
- # [17:28] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: Almost all PHP is a mess though.
- # [17:28] <gsnedders|work> :P
- # [17:29] * Philip` looked at the IPB forum software once, after it got hacked, and saw a nice little bit of code where it sanitised an IP address and had at least two blatant bugs
- # [17:29] <svl> gsnedders|work: comments when displayed in the admin area allowed for xss. So either they stole the cookie at that point (most probable), or they redirected one of the people with access to a phishing site showing a login form.
- # [17:29] <svl> gsnedders|work: Almost all everything is a mess. :)
- # [17:29] <Philip`> (It was doing some substitution using an incorrect regexp, and then discarding the result anyway)
- # [17:30] <gsnedders|work> svl: But if they stole the cookie that's useless once it times out
- # [17:30] <gsnedders|work> And I doubt they're that quick
- # [17:31] <svl> gsnedders|work: I assume it'd be fully automated.
- # [17:31] <svl> This wasn't targetting whatwg specifically - just any wordpress blog that could be found
- # [17:31] <gsnedders|work> svl: I guess. But how would it then change a theme?
- # [17:31] <gsnedders|work> svl: I know, I've seen this before.
- # [17:31] <gsnedders|work> svl: On WHATWG blog you can't change it in the admin panel as the web server doesn't have write access to the templates
- # [17:32] <svl> Ah. Then I don't know.
- # [17:32] <svl> I've only browsed casualyl over the information about this particular strain of attacks.
- # [17:34] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Set up Habari on blog2.whatwg.org and import the WP posts and then everybody should be happy to move :-)
- # [17:34] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: But I can't do that :P
- # [17:35] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Why not?
- # [17:35] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: How can I upload Habari? :P
- # [17:35] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Use a WP vulnerability to give yourself admin access to the machine
- # [17:35] <Philip`> or ask Hixie or whatever
- # [17:35] <gsnedders|work> :D
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- # [18:02] <Darxus> The http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/xhtml-faq#ie Microsoft compatability recommendation (application/xml + XSLT) causes all browsers to parse the document as XML, make a copy with content-type text/html, and then parse it as html??
- # [18:07] <Philip`> Darxus: Probably something crazy like that
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- # [18:24] <Darxus> Philip`: Thanks. That is worse than just serving it all as text/html. (While I'm still insisting on believing that serving as *xml is somehow better.)
- # [18:24] <Darxus> Well, worse than everything else you might do.
- # [18:27] * Philip` doesn't understand what the code is actually doing, which seems like a good reason to simply serve HTML as text/html and not have to worry
- # [18:31] <inimino> that does seem quite a bit worse than just serving it as text/html
- # [18:31] <inimino> yuck
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- # [18:32] <Darxus> Yeah.
- # [18:33] <Darxus> I strongly prefer serving MSIE agents text/html and everybody else application/xhtml+xml.
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- # [18:33] <Philip`> thus making the page more fragile and less efficient for all non-IE users :-p
- # [18:34] <Darxus> Philip`: I don't see how it's less efficient.
- # [18:34] <Darxus> And I think by "more fragile" you mean that it must always be well formed, I'm quite happy with that.
- # [18:34] <Darxus> And... I'm actually not giving IE users any advantage at all....
- # [18:36] <Philip`> Darxus: Until recently Firefox didn't even do incremental rendering for XHTML (while it did for HTML); I don't know what differences there are nowadays, but the HTML codepath is likely to have been much more heavily optimised
- # [18:39] <Darxus> Philip`: So what's the reason for the xml variant of html5?
- # [18:41] <Lachy> Darxus, because there are a lot of people that want to use XHTML, and it does have some advantages over HTML, depending on the use case
- # [18:42] <Darxus> What advantages?
- # [18:42] <Darxus> Is this in the spec?
- # [18:42] <Lachy> particularly if you want to do a lot of mixed namespace stuff, like embed RDFa or XBL or some other language that isn't (or won't) be natively supported in HTML
- # [18:42] <Philip`> Darxus: Being fragile hurts non-IE users because of things like http://annevankesteren.nl/2005/11/draconian
- # [18:44] <Lachy> it also has a lot of advantages as an authoring format, for use on the back end of a CMS, such as being able to integrate with XML tool chains more easily (though you can do that to some extent with HTML too)
- # [18:46] <Darxus> Philip`: I am entirely comfortable with that situation.
- # [18:47] <Darxus> Woohoo! http://www.chaosreigns.com/code/dxschema/output.txt This is so unimpressive, but feels like an accomplishment to me. Doing the most basic element nesting verification. Haven't defined all elements yet.
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- # [18:52] <Philip`> http://www.chaosreigns.com/code/dxschema/ - "XML parsing failed: syntax error (Line: 1, Character: 0)" - that's not very friendly :-(
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- # [19:00] <Darxus> Philip`: It is not yet intended for public consumption.
- # [19:00] <Darxus> It's just random notes, without a single bit of the required markup.
- # [19:01] <Darxus> Also not linked from anywhere.
- # [19:02] <Darxus> It's awesome that HTML5 says the value of the src attribute of the img element can be an svg.
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- # [19:05] <Darxus> It requires an awful lot of reading to determin if there are any cases where an img is not required to have an alt attribute.
- # [19:07] <Darxus> Ugh, there is one. I object.
- # [19:07] <Darxus> "Images whose contents are not known". Not only is it okay for the alt to be empty, it may be omitted.
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- # [19:08] <Darxus> "If an img element is being used for purposes other than showing an image, e.g. as part of a service to count page views" That's pretty ridiculous to say without suggesting any alternatives.
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- # [19:19] <Darxus> I've been waiting for the embed element for years.
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- # [21:39] <Darxus> It is unfortunate that a canvas can't have resolution-independant dimensions.
- # [21:39] <Philip`> What do you mean by that?
- # [21:40] <Philip`> You can say e.g. <canvas width=300> and it'll be the same independent of the internal resolution
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- # [21:42] <Philip`> (I'm not suggesting you're wrong, just that I don't understand exactly what you mean, and I don't like not understanding :-) )
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- # [21:52] <Darxus> "Contexts in which this element may be used:
- # [21:52] <Darxus> Where embedded content is expected."
- # [21:52] <Darxus> Where is embeded content expected? I can't find a definition.
- # [21:53] <Darxus> Philip`: I want <canvas width="100%" height="100%">.
- # [21:53] <Darxus> However, I recognize that's... probably not going to happen in 5.0.
- # [21:55] <Darxus> I'm thinking it's expected anywhere phrasing content is, obviously with stated exceptions.
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- # [22:00] <Darxus> 03:54PM -!- Irssi: Pasting 498 lines to #whatwg. Press Ctrl-K if you wish to do this or Ctrl-C to cancel.
- # [22:00] <Darxus> Yay irssi.
- # [22:00] <Darxus> Boo chrome alpha (but it's okay because it's an alpha).
- # [22:00] <Darxus> Here we go: "As a general rule, elements whose content model allows any flow content should have either at least one descendant text node that is not inter-element whitespace, or at least one descendant element node that is embedded content."
- # [22:03] <Darxus> Embedded content is allowed in both phrasing and flow content.
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- # [22:05] <Philip`> Darxus: What would the canvas do when you resize the page?
- # [22:05] <Darxus> Philip`: Change size.
- # [22:05] <Darxus> I understand that it would be more difficult to impliment, which is why I don't expect
- # [22:06] <Darxus> it in 5.0.
- # [22:06] <Philip`> If you want it to stretch the existing pixels, you could do <canvas width="500" height="500" style="width: 100%; height: 100%">
- # [22:06] <Philip`> (or whatever the appropriate CSS is)
- # [22:06] <Philip`> and it'll be equivalent to a 500*n by 500*n image being scaled to 100%
- # [22:07] <Philip`> (where n is typically 1, but might be higher on high-res displays)
- # [22:08] <Darxus> Yes, but I don't want to do that.
- # [22:08] <Hixie> woo
- # [22:08] <Hixie> ok
- # [22:08] <Hixie> people can now file a bug from within the spec itself
- # [22:08] <Darxus> I can zoom in and out of a playing youtube video in firefox, scaling the content of a canvas should be... doable.
- # [22:09] <Philip`> Hixie: What do we do if there's a bug in the code that files bugs?
- # [22:09] <Hixie> tell me
- # [22:11] <Philip`> Oh, that's much less exciting than the infinite series of automatic bug filing mechanisms I was imagining
- # [22:11] <Hixie> :-P
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- # [22:30] <Philip`> Hmm, Gmail moved a message from Google into the spam folder
- # [22:31] * Philip` would have thought they'd have exceptions to avoid that kind of thing
- # [22:35] <annevk4> I once got a recruiter email from Google and it had "(THIS IS NOT SPAM)" or some such in the subject line :)
- # [22:36] <Darxus> Um. Are there any HTML5/XML pages other than the one I made?
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- # [22:39] <sebmarkbage> annevk4: There was some talk a while back about removing getOverrideStyle and standardizing runtimeStyle. What ever happened to that? Died out?
- # [22:40] <annevk4> I decided I did not have the time to actually work on the full CSSOM
- # [22:40] <Lachy> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/07/microsoft-caves-to-eu-pressure-will-offer-browser-ballot.ars
- # [22:40] <annevk4> I thought it was much simpler than it actually is
- # [22:41] <sebmarkbage> I see. Yea, and it does have quite a few problems.
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- # [22:42] <annevk4> the CSSOM is vastly underdefined yes :(
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- # [22:43] <Philip`> "the European Union's preferred solution for bowser competition"
- # [22:44] <Philip`> Mario?
- # [22:47] <Darxus> Lachy: Awesome.
- # [22:47] <gsnedders> Philip`: Opera own a copy of that, that wouldn't be impartial.
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- # [23:58] <Hixie> ok which tool filed the "test" bug
- # [23:58] <Hixie> after all the effort i went to to only file sensible bugs during development
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- # Session Close: Sat Jul 25 00:00:00 2009
The end :)
