/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-07-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jul 25 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:06] <Hixie> anyone remember or have a pointer to the new cookie work?
  7. # [00:08] <Hixie> found it https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/http-state
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  10. # [00:13] <Darxus> It's interesting that both head and body tags may be omitted.
  11. # [00:15] <deltab> yes, only <title> and </title> are required by HTML 4
  12. # [00:15] <Darxus> Oh, wow, I didn't realize this was the case in 4 as well.
  13. # [00:15] * gsnedders thought the body element was required in HTML 4 too, although the tags can be omitted
  14. # [00:16] <gsnedders> Darxus: html, head, and body have always been omittable tags.
  15. # [00:16] <Darxus> Wow.
  16. # [00:16] <deltab> tbody too
  17. # [00:17] <Hixie> we didn't add any new omittable tags except </rt> and </rp> iirc
  18. # [00:17] <tantek> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"><title>hello world</title><p>This is a really simple valid HTML 4.01 document</p>
  19. # [00:17] <gsnedders> s#</p>##
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  21. # [00:23] <deltab> there's some spam hidden at the bottom of http://blog.whatwg.org/quality-assurance-tools-for-html5
  22. # [00:23] <gsnedders> We know.
  23. # [00:25] <Darxus> Can those tags be omitted in xhtml too?
  24. # [00:26] <gsnedders> No
  25. # [00:26] <Darxus> Okay, thanks.
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  27. # [00:26] <Darxus> Was hard to tell from the doc.
  28. # [00:37] <deltab> xml doesn't allow any tags to be omitted
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  30. # [00:39] <Philip`> So I'm not allowed to write <p>Hello</p> in XML, because I've omitted the <i> tags and <b> tags etc? :-)
  31. # [00:39] <gsnedders> But there's an infinite number of possible tags!
  32. # [00:39] <deltab> you don't have any b or i elements there, so you don't need their tags
  33. # [00:39] <Philip`> I suppose the accurate thing to say is that XML will not create any elements unless you explicitly give their tags
  34. # [00:40] <gsnedders> deltab: Then that's "any tags for whose elements exist", not "any tags"
  35. # [00:40] <deltab> if you have an element, you must have either a start tag and an end tag, or an empty-element tag
  36. # [00:40] <gsnedders> deltab: Both myself and Philip` are well aware of this.
  37. # [00:40] <Philip`> XHTML makes it more fun because you can omit the <tbody>/</tbody> tags
  38. # [00:40] <deltab> I should hope so :-) it's for darxus
  39. # [00:41] <gsnedders> And then get something which you can't serialize in HTML!
  40. # [00:41] <Philip`> (which also omits the corresponding element, as a side effect)
  41. # [00:41] <Philip`> so the concept of "omit" gets a little bit fuzzy when comparing HTML and XHTML
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  110. # [08:03] <Darxus> I don't like the two syntaxes being referred to as HTML5 and XHTML5. It makes it completely unclear whether I'm talking about the full HTML5 spec, or the html syntax of it. I prefer HTML5/HTML / HTML5/XML.
  111. # [08:03] <Hixie> just call them "XHTML5" and "text/html"
  112. # [08:05] <Darxus> No :P
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  115. # [09:12] <gsnedders> Call them "a" and "b"
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  126. # [10:09] <ray> anything but slashes, please
  127. # [10:13] * Hixie gives ray some parentheses
  128. # [10:13] <Hixie> these ok?
  129. # [10:13] <annevk2> http://imgur.com/DzZdf.jpg :)
  130. # [10:14] <annevk2> (from markp)
  131. # [10:16] <Hixie> gotta love how the ap press release uses the word "microformat" to describe what they're going to do
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  133. # [10:35] <olliej> yo gsnedders
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  137. # [10:49] <Lachy> Hixie, where is the AP press release you're referring to?
  138. # [10:49] <Hixie> http://www.ap.org/pages/about/pressreleases/pr_072309a.html
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  141. # [10:53] <Philip`> Why is "microformat" inappropriate?
  142. # [10:53] <Philip`> http://www.ap.org/media/images/APnewsregistry.jpg mentions hNews which is http://www.valueaddednews.org/technical/techspec which is seemingly intended as a microformat
  143. # [10:54] <Hixie> read the first paragraph of that page
  144. # [10:54] <Hixie> "It is not a formal microformat specification. It is intended that this draft specification will enter the microformats process, but in the meantime it should be considered a poshformat."
  145. # [10:55] <tantek> Hixie - yes - that shows a considerable amount of knowledge/sensitivity to the microformats process.
  146. # [10:55] <Hixie> the valueaddednews.org page does, indeed
  147. # [10:55] <Hixie> the ap press release, not so much
  148. # [10:55] <tantek> press releases typically are not particularly good with details
  149. # [10:56] <tantek> Mark Ng who worked on the hNews brainstorm is going to be at microformatsDevCamp this weekend btw. http://tr.im/ufCE
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  151. # [10:58] <tantek> the features in hNews brainstorm will be considered for hAtom 0.2
  152. # [10:59] <Lachy> I don't understand how they expect to use a microformat to protect anything
  153. # [10:59] <tantek> Lachy - I'm not sure about any kind of "protection" in that context either, but I do think if an organization wants to pursue better semantic markup, that's a good thing.
  154. # [10:59] <Lachy> unless they also intend to get some government regulation to force software to implement it and impose restrictions somehow
  155. # [11:01] <tantek> I think some of this work may also help drive the completion of the licensing microformat that is in development, which allows licensing specific portions of content via links (similar to rel-license).
  156. # [11:02] <tantek> As I mentioned to Hixie earlier in this channel (days ago?) it's likely to be fairly straightforward, similar to the licensing predefined vocab, without any of the undesirable combinatorial complexity of the ccREL schema/model.
  157. # [11:02] <Lachy> http://www.ap.org/media/images/APnewsregistry.jpg - there's apparently also some tracking beacon. Not sure how that could possibly work in practice
  158. # [11:04] <tantek> I don't know of any beacon in the hNews brainstorm and I don't understand how it's supposed to work so I'm not going to speculate on that. The beacon mentioned does not seem to have anything to do with semantic markup.
  159. # [11:04] <tantek> (so it doesn't seem worth worrying about vis-a-vis evaluating the hNews brainstorm)
  160. # [11:05] <tantek> I'm not sure how (from that jpg) '"the sends signals back to the news registry" - e.g. signals using what protocols etc.
  161. # [11:06] <Lachy> yeah, I guess we'll have to wait for more technical details to arise
  162. # [11:07] <tantek> well, as I said, due to the apparent orthogonality of the technologies, I'm going to move forward with evaluating hNews on its own semantic markup merits, regardless of any protocol layer changes that related proposals may seek, and leave those to other technical discussions.
  163. # [11:07] <Philip`> <img src="http://tracking.ap.org/?article=412385" alt=""> - easy :-)
  164. # [11:08] <Lachy> Philip`, the tracking beacon is somehow supposed to track reuse of the content, so they must be assuming that whatever they include will somehow also be copied along with their content
  165. # [11:08] <Lachy> which is a flawed assumption
  166. # [11:09] <Lachy> unless they only care about services that syndicate their entire rss/atom feed verbatim
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  171. # [12:11] <shepazu> it's going to use @ping :)
  172. # [12:15] <Hixie> i wonder why http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2009Jul/0197.html was sent in a member-only forum given the public nature of the referenced group
  173. # [12:15] <Hixie> same with other e-mails around the same time
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  175. # [12:31] <gsnedders> 'lo olliej
  176. # [12:34] <olliej> gsnedders: looks to be an interesting GP this weekend
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  178. # [13:04] <othermaciej> well, I decided to be honestly impolite after all
  179. # [13:17] <gsnedders> olliej: Sadly, being in Sweden, and without a TV, I have no means of knowing :(
  180. # [13:18] <olliej> :-(
  181. # [13:18] <olliej> othermaciej: ?
  182. # [13:18] <othermaciej> on public-html
  183. # [13:20] * olliej doesn't follow that list
  184. # [13:24] <Philip`> olliej: You're missing out on so much excitement
  185. # [13:24] <olliej> ...
  186. # [13:24] <gsnedders> s/much/little/
  187. # [13:25] <olliej> mailing lists tend to aggravate me more than excite me
  188. # [13:25] * olliej is not particularly tolerant of stupidity, idiocy, dogmatic arguments, etc
  189. # [13:28] <Philip`> olliej: Yet you spend all day on IRC? :-)
  190. # [13:28] <gsnedders> olliej: Do you think free practice times for this weekend are real?
  191. # [13:30] <olliej> gsnedders: tricky
  192. # [13:31] <gsnedders> olliej: Hmm, looking at the German GP free practice times I guess they aren't
  193. # [13:31] <olliej> gsnedders: i'd like to know the amount of fuel in in hamilton's car
  194. # [13:31] <olliej> gsnedders: the mp4-24 is vastly improved now
  195. # [13:32] <gsnedders> olliej: I'm guessing nothing. To be top of the times at free practice for two races in a row and not have very good race perf. still…
  196. # [13:32] <olliej> gsnedders: hamiltons times in germany were screwed by a flat in the first corner
  197. # [13:32] <gsnedders> heh. Reminds me of Schumacher's final race
  198. # [13:32] <olliej> i missed that :-(
  199. # [13:32] <gsnedders> (and _that_ was an impressive drive by him)
  200. # [13:33] <gsnedders> I think it was on a restart after SC on about lap 3, him and Fisi came together, giving him a flat
  201. # [13:33] <olliej> bugger
  202. # [13:33] <gsnedders> So, one whole very slow lap round Interlagos, and long pit stop, put him around 70 seconds down from Massa, in the lead
  203. # [13:33] <gsnedders> (a lap is around 83 seconds)
  204. # [13:34] <gsnedders> He came fouth.
  205. # [13:34] <gsnedders> *forth
  206. # [13:34] <gsnedders> (70 seconds down and last)
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  209. # [13:39] <gsnedders> olliej: Oh, it was on lap 8
  210. # [13:39] <gsnedders> (of 71)
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  212. # [13:42] <olliej> gsnedders: err
  213. # [13:42] <olliej> gsnedders: did you just incorrect your spelling?
  214. # [13:42] <gsnedders> No, both were wrong
  215. # [13:42] <gsnedders> *fourth
  216. # [13:42] <gsnedders> But forth is at least a word, unlike fouth :P
  217. # [13:43] <olliej> heh
  218. # [13:43] <olliej> fail :D
  219. # [13:44] <svl> Couldn't you as author of the original word just normatively declare it to be equal to "fourth"?
  220. # [13:45] <Philip`> In that case I, as the reader of the word, will normatively declare it to be interpreted as "seventh"
  221. # [13:45] <gsnedders> fouth son of a fouth son?
  222. # [13:47] <Philip`> Yes, who turns out to actually be a daughter, causing all sorts of confusion
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  224. # [13:51] <olliej> clearly we need a committee and working group to define an acceptable definition of fouth
  225. # [13:51] <gsnedders> olliej: a public or private WG?
  226. # [13:52] <olliej> gsnedders: it needs to be public
  227. # [13:52] <olliej> gsnedders: so we can get input from the wider web community
  228. # [13:57] <svl> Shouldn't we reach out to established experts on all things fouth?
  229. # [13:58] <olliej> indeed we should
  230. # [14:01] <Lachy> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fouth
  231. # [14:02] <gsnedders> Ah, we need to get Tom Kuhns involved then.
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  239. # [15:01] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
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  250. # [16:56] <Darxus> "Note: The Adobe SVG Viewer recommends that you use the EMBED tag when embedding SVG in HTML pages! However, if you want to create valid XHTML, you cannot use <embed> - The <embed> tag is not listed in any HTML specification." - http://www.w3schools.com/svg/svg_inhtml.asp it would be nice to get HTML5 mentioned in that paragraph.
  251. # [17:00] * Joins: deltab (n=deltab@82-36-30-34.cable.ubr02.smal.blueyonder.co.uk)
  252. # [17:06] <poe> Darxus: I find that w3schools is quite unreliable in general.
  253. # [17:17] <jcranmer> I prefer just going to specs myself these days
  254. # [17:17] <jcranmer> MDC is helpful sometimes, though
  255. # [17:17] <jcranmer> I forgot that XSLT has some functions that XPath doesn't have
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  259. # [17:22] <takkaria> HTML5 is acutally a pretty good reference for a lot of stuf
  260. # [17:22] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  261. # [17:29] <annevk4> if you read spec :)
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  273. # [19:55] <Darxus> The spec is kind of hard to read if you're not trying to find full browser implimentation details.
  274. # [19:56] <gsnedders> Darxus: See alternate style sheets
  275. # [19:57] <Darxus> gsnedders: I do not understand. I wasn't actually complaining about the spec, just responding to takkaria / annevk2.
  276. # [19:58] <Darxus> Validators happen, browser implimentors clearly need more help :)
  277. # [19:58] <gsnedders> It's still true and makes it easier to read
  278. # [19:59] <Darxus> What's true?
  279. # [20:00] <Philip`> Darxus: Everything that's not false
  280. # [20:00] <takkaria> Darxus: if you're actually coding javascript, though, you need implementation details to make sure your code works right
  281. # [20:00] <Philip`> unless you're a constructivist, I suppose
  282. # [20:00] <takkaria> Philip`: hm, constructionism
  283. # [20:00] <takkaria> d'oh
  284. # [20:00] <inimino> Darxus: there is an 'author view' style sheet that hides some parts of the spec
  285. # [20:01] <Darxus> inimino: I have not noticed that.
  286. # [20:01] * gsnedders blinks
  287. # [20:01] <gsnedders> ChrisWilson? In #whatwg? What's the world coming to?
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  289. # [20:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: What about things that cannot be proven, and hence are neither true nor false?
  290. # [20:03] <inimino> things that cannot be proven are neither true nor false?
  291. # [20:03] <Philip`> I think it depends on whether you believe in the law of the excluded middle
  292. # [20:03] <Darxus> Nothing can be proven, not even your own existence.
  293. # [20:03] <inimino> I don't think so
  294. # [20:04] <inimino> lots of things that are either true or false cannot be /proven/
  295. # [20:04] <Darxus> I'm lacking motivation to do the validation steps after basic nesting :/
  296. # [20:04] <inimino> for example, every historical fact
  297. # [20:04] * Philip` was replying mostly to gsnedders
  298. # [20:06] * Philip` only cares about cares about real proof, like in maths, not about anything fuzzy like history :-p
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  300. # [20:07] <Darxus> I figure valadation works out to: basic nesting, conditional nesting (including sequence / required elements), and value type enforcement.
  301. # [20:07] <Darxus> Sounds pretty simple. Still.
  302. # [20:07] <Philip`> and many people consider it axiomatic that everything is either true or false, in which case the things gsnedders asked about don't exist
  303. # [20:07] <Darxus> I hate the word "maths".
  304. # [20:08] <Philip`> (regardless of whether everything can be proved)
  305. # [20:09] <inimino> Philip`: ah, but "things that cannot be proven" is what gsnedders asked about
  306. # [20:10] <gsnedders> inimino: It is still possible that those things are either true or false
  307. # [20:10] <gsnedders> inimino: It's just we can't prove it
  308. # [20:10] <Philip`> inimino: They are a subset of things, and if all things are either true or false, then the things in the subset are too
  309. # [20:10] <inimino> gsnedders: agreed
  310. # [20:11] <inimino> Philip`: yes, surely
  311. # [20:13] <inimino> (I think most people will agree that "colorless green ideas sleep furiously" is neither true nor false, though)
  312. # [20:15] <Darxus> inimino: Did you just make that quote up?
  313. # [20:16] <inimino> Darxus: no, it's from Chomsky
  314. # [20:16] <Darxus> Good.
  315. # [20:16] * Philip` only cares about proper stuff like maths, so he's not interested in sleeping ideas unless they're expressed in formal logic :-p
  316. # [20:16] <Darxus> I still hate the word "maths".
  317. # [20:17] <Philip`> What word would you prefer?
  318. # [20:19] <Darxus> Philip`: "math".
  319. # [20:20] <Philip`> Darxus: Urgh
  320. # [20:21] <takkaria> bloody americans
  321. # [20:21] <gsnedders> But mathematics is plural, so why should the abbreviation be singular?
  322. # [20:21] <takkaria> (scare quotes implied)
  323. # [20:21] * gsnedders heads off
  324. # [20:22] <Darxus> Does the "s" in "mathematics" actually imply plural?
  325. # [20:23] <Dashiva> It's a mass noun
  326. # [20:23] <Darxus> I don't know what a mass noun is.
  327. # [20:24] <Philip`> It's like "kilogram"
  328. # [20:24] <gsnedders> LOL
  329. # [20:24] <gsnedders> A mass noun is uncoutable
  330. # [20:24] <gsnedders> *uncountable
  331. # [20:24] <inimino> it's like "water" or "sand"
  332. # [20:24] <Darxus> gsnedders: So the "s" doesn't imply plural?
  333. # [20:25] <inimino> you don't have waters or sands, (except poetically)
  334. # [20:25] <gsnedders> Darxus: correct
  335. # [20:25] <Darxus> Sweet. I am victorious.
  336. # [20:26] * inimino notes that the topic goes double if people are going to try to reason about English
  337. # [20:27] <gsnedders> heh
  338. # [20:27] <gsnedders> "Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!
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  342. # [20:31] <Dashiva> Even without a sense of logic we can still apply reasoning rules mechanically
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  345. # [20:42] <Darxus> "Element h1 is not allowed in element body (note: schema is not yet completed)." Heh.
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  352. # [21:20] <Darxus> Checking attribute values against a perl regex now works.
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The end :)