/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-07-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 30 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  16. # [00:17] <tantek> in lieu of an email writeup in lieu of a wiki writeup (probably to follow at some point) :
  17. # [00:17] <tantek> While the HTML 4.01 definition of CITE
  18. # [00:17] <tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-CITE
  19. # [00:17] <tantek> "Contains a citation or a reference to other sources"
  20. # [00:17] <tantek> may be too vague,
  21. # [00:17] <tantek> the current HTML5 draft definition:
  22. # [00:17] <tantek> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-cite-element
  23. # [00:17] <tantek> "The cite element represents the title of a work..."
  24. # [00:17] <tantek> "A person's name is not the title of a work ..."
  25. # [00:17] <tantek> is a bit too narrow.
  26. # [00:18] <tantek> The cite element is for *any* kind of source, whether that source is:
  27. # [00:18] <tantek> * the title of a printed work, or
  28. # [00:18] <tantek> * a URL to an online work (should be represented by a nested hyperlink),
  29. # [00:18] <tantek> * or even the name of a person who said something, perhaps outloud in person or in an online chat such as IRC.
  30. # [00:18] <Hixie> why people?
  31. # [00:18] <tantek> Note that I am not advocating allowing marking up the name of an author of a work with cite, but rather, when the source/work is simply speech from an author that is not otherwise part of a work, then it is appropriate to markup the author (and their name or online nickname) as a cite.
  32. # [00:18] <Hixie> using <cite> for names is silly
  33. # [00:18] <Hixie> it's typographically wrong
  34. # [00:18] <Hixie> it's applying semantics where none are needed
  35. # [00:18] <tantek> Hixie, do you have a reference for why/how it is *typographically* wrong?
  36. # [00:19] <Hixie> sure, hold on
  37. # [00:19] <tantek> The precise semantic is that the *person* themsevles is the "other source".
  38. # [00:19] <tantek> when quoting from otherwise untitled/ungrouped speech from that person
  39. # [00:20] <tantek> thus the person themselves is the "other source" (per HTML 4.01 definition)
  40. # [00:20] <tantek> hence the usage of cite to refer to a speaker in such examples is semantically correct
  41. # [00:21] <tantek> (oops sorry about the nearly dup text there)
  42. # [00:23] <tantek> and also note that I am not advocating for general use of <cite> for names.
  43. # [00:26] <tantek> but rather for a very specific use for a person's name (or nickname if appropriate, e.g. for quoting from IRC) saying something which is quoted.
  44. # [00:26] * Quits: Sidnicious (n=Sidney@unaffiliated/sidnicious)
  45. # [00:26] <Hixie> my reference for the typography of names is going to be the chicacgo manual of style. I can't find anything in there that justifies using the same element for a title of a work and a name of a person, ever.
  46. # [00:27] <Hixie> <cite> is not for citations at all in html5
  47. # [00:27] <Hixie> it's just for titles of works
  48. # [00:27] <Hixie> because that's more useful in practice as far as i can tell
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  51. # [00:51] * annevk2 thought the answer to http://twitter.com/johnfoliot/statuses/2918355573 has been long known
  52. # [00:51] * annevk2 wonders what this new wave of fake-ignorance is about
  53. # [00:52] <tantek> Hixie, in practice <cite> is also useful for names of speakers as noted above. E.g. http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2009-05-01
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  56. # [00:53] <Hixie> tantek: how is it useful there?
  57. # [00:53] <Hixie> tantek: just use <dt> and <dialog> for a chat log.
  58. # [00:53] <tantek> the same as knowing what the "source" is for any quottation
  59. # [00:53] <Hixie> knowing what the "source" is for any quotation is not useful, as far as i can tell
  60. # [00:53] <Hixie> sounds useful
  61. # [00:53] <Hixie> but is not actually useful
  62. # [00:54] <tantek> it is useful, in that it provides a mechanism by which it may be possible to determine the validity of the quote
  63. # [00:54] <tantek> often by looking up the source
  64. # [00:54] <Hixie> you don't need an element for that
  65. # [00:54] <tantek> the same usefulness for citing any source
  66. # [00:54] <Hixie> what's the use for the element that can't be done without any element?
  67. # [00:54] <tantek> what is the harm in permitting an existing semantic usage to continue?
  68. # [00:55] <Hixie> that's _exactly_ what the spec is doing
  69. # [00:55] <tantek> I believe there is more weight on the side of keeping an existing practical usage, than dropping it. It doesn't appear to be doing any harm.
  70. # [00:55] <Hixie> the existing semantic usage is people use it for titles
  71. # [00:55] <Hixie> not citations
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  73. # [00:55] <tantek> No the current draft spec is keeping one usage and dropping another.
  74. # [00:57] <tantek> people are using <cite> to refer to "other sources" per HTML 4.01. *one* of those other sources is the title of a work, another is a URL to a work, yet another is the name of a speaker of a quote. all of which are sources.
  75. # [00:58] <tantek> I understand the utility in refining the definition as given in HTML 4.01. However it seems to do more harm than good to ignore one of those existing uses, and disallow another, rather than explicitly allow all three existing uses.
  76. # [00:58] <Hixie> the vast majority of people who are using <cite> for any purpose other than "italics" are using <cite> to mean "title of work", not "cited name"
  77. # [00:59] <Hixie> and there is no good use for using it to mark up cited names that needs an element
  78. # [00:59] <Hixie> using it for names has one harm, it encourages people to use incorrect typography for names
  79. # [00:59] <Hixie> just look at anne's blog
  80. # [00:59] <tantek> Is Anne using it incorrectly?
  81. # [00:59] <Hixie> he's using it as you suggest
  82. # [01:00] <tantek> Hixie, it's not clear that "no good use for it" argument makes any sense, as any use case for the "title of a work" can also be made for the name of a speaker
  83. # [01:01] <Hixie> the only use case for title of work is "makes it italics", which doesn't apply to "name of a speaker"
  84. # [01:01] <tantek> I disagree - another use of the title of a work, and name of a speaker, is to look up said title/name and provide more information
  85. # [01:01] <tantek> about the source
  86. # [01:01] <Hixie> you don't need an element to do that
  87. # [01:02] <tantek> you do - in order to indicate what is the title or name of the speaker, as opposed to nearby text
  88. # [01:02] <Hixie> So if I say "Tantek said that you needed that", you wouldn't know that "Tantek" was a name, because I didn't mark it up?
  89. # [01:03] <Hixie> either i'm dramatically misunderstanding you, or someone gave you semantic web drugs this morning
  90. # [01:03] <tantek> entity discovery/resolution is buggy/unreliable, even in just one language, nevermind internationally.
  91. # [01:03] <annevk2> I stopped using <cite> that way btw
  92. # [01:03] <tantek> with the exception of very well defined text grammar
  93. # [01:03] <Hixie> people have no trouble understanding what is a name and what isn't
  94. # [01:03] <tantek> Hixie - depends on the language
  95. # [01:03] <Hixie> no, it really doesn't
  96. # [01:04] <tantek> and what about names that are not title-cased?
  97. # [01:04] <Hixie> like when i say that tantek said something?
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  99. # [01:04] <tantek> Hixie - right
  100. # [01:04] <Hixie> you have no problem seeing the name there either
  101. # [01:04] <tantek> assuming you have a NLP that processes the sentence at all
  102. # [01:04] <Hixie> if you really, really, truly and honestly really desperately need some sort o machine-readable way to know that something is a name... use hCard
  103. # [01:04] <tantek> is the name "that tantek" or "tantek"
  104. # [01:06] <tantek> it gets more complicated in languages such as German where all nouns are capitalized
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  106. # [01:06] <Hixie> please show me one example of that confusion actually happening, where <cite> would actually have helped.
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  108. # [01:06] <tantek> Hixie - agreed that hCard helps to markup the name of a person and recognize it as such, especially if it has several name components (given, family, suffix etc.)
  109. # [01:07] <tantek> what <cite> does above and beyond that, is to indicate that that person is a *source*
  110. # [01:07] <tantek> which can then be connected to a quotation q through its cite attribute
  111. # [01:07] <Hixie> in html5, <cite> doesn't indicate that the thing is a source
  112. # [01:07] <Hixie> ok come now, nobody ever uses cite=""
  113. # [01:07] <annevk2> the main problem with using <cite> for this is, as I learned after I used it for a while, is that it is typographically incorrect, at least in English, to italicize the name
  114. # [01:07] <Hixie> i've seriously considered dropping cite="" altogether
  115. # [01:08] <Hixie> precisely to stop this kind of argument :-)
  116. # [01:08] <annevk2> Hixie, I use that!
  117. # [01:08] <Hixie> no, you don't. As an author you do, but not as a user.
  118. # [01:08] <Hixie> and as an author i bet it's never done you one iota of good.
  119. # [01:08] <tantek> e.g. <cite id="qs01">tantek</cite> said <q cite="#qs01">which can be connected to a quotation q through its cite attribute</q>
  120. # [01:08] <Hixie> tantek: you don't need any markup whatsoever for that. Just write tantek said "which can be connected to a quotation q through its cite attribute
  121. # [01:08] <Hixie> "
  122. # [01:08] <ttepasse> annevk2, how is that a problem? In a non-CSS-world - but where ist such a thing?
  123. # [01:09] <annevk2> Hixie, I have some script that displays it to the user
  124. # [01:09] <annevk2> ttepasse, cite { font-style:normal } would not be good if it was actually the title of a work
  125. # [01:09] <ttepasse> cite.name?
  126. # [01:09] <annevk2> ttepasse, too much effort?
  127. # [01:10] <Hixie> annevk2: and i'm sure it made you feel great to know that you're doing the semantically right thing, huh
  128. # [01:10] <annevk2> (this is also the problem I have with the role= rather than element advocates; it's just too much typing most of the time to bother)
  129. # [01:11] * ttepasse is a big fan of tab-completion for those things.
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  131. # [01:11] <annevk2> Hixie, yeah and if you kill the feature I'll set up my own rogue cite4all group and make a lot of noise!
  132. # [01:12] <annevk2> ttepasse, my text editor is akin to notepad / <textarea>
  133. # [01:13] <Hixie> so, anyone want to volunteer to write a script that scans the spec to generate these tables? :-) http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#index
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  139. # [01:29] <tantek> Hixie, your point about "don't need any markup ... for that" again depends on NLP/entity-recognition, which as noted, is non-trivial in one language, let alone internationally.
  140. # [01:29] <tantek> Regarding the harm "incorrect typography for names" - I will accept that issue and get back to you with appropriate default style sheet rules.
  141. # [01:29] <Hixie> humans are good at NLP
  142. # [01:29] <Hixie> very good
  143. # [01:30] <tantek> Regarding "show me one example of that confusion actually happening, where <cite> would actually have helped." I will research and provide more examples.
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  146. # [01:31] <tantek> Hixie, semantic markup is for UAs to present better user interfaces though right? If all we needed was to present things for humans, plain text with appropriate whitespace would be sufficient for many/most use cases.
  147. # [01:32] <rubys> Hixie: my experience is otherwise.
  148. # [01:32] <Hixie> tantek: i'm not convinced there's any need for better UI for users to work out who is saying what, to be honest.
  149. # [01:32] <tantek> Anyway - your request for more examples is certainly very reasonable.
  150. # [01:32] <tantek> Hixie, as a sample UI, being able to right-click on a source and get info on it/them.
  151. # [01:33] <Hixie> who does that? that's a dream of Semantic Web people that in my experience "normal" users don't share
  152. # [01:33] <tantek> Indeed in Mozilla (and perhaps Opera?) I believe it was/is possible to right click on a q/blockquote and get the cite attribute(d) source.
  153. # [01:33] <Hixie> rubys: literacy rates might be better in europe :-)
  154. # [01:34] <tantek> from there, when that cite attribute links (through a frag id as shown in the example above) to a <cite> element, then that can provide further information
  155. # [01:34] <Hixie> i encourage you to consider what real problem users are facing would be addressed by this, rather than what theoretical problems might be addressed by this
  156. # [01:35] <Hixie> i've never, ever, ever heard a user say "i wish i could figure out who wrote that quote... maybe if i right-click on it it will highlight the name of the author for me"
  157. # [01:35] <Hixie> i have heard them say things like "i wish i could read my web mail while on a plane without network connectivity"
  158. # [01:36] <tantek> Hixie, one real world usage is Wikipedia, where quotes/assertions are cited, and hyperlinks are used to create a UI from quote/assertion to source etc.
  159. # [01:36] <Hixie> what's wrong with what they do now?
  160. # [01:37] <tantek> nothing, in the same way that <br><br> was sufficient to indicate paragraphs. but now just as we have the <p> element for semantically marking up paragraphs so that we can avoid "hacking" a presentational paragraph, it makes sense to *keep* the cite attribute / cite element to semantically markup citations and sources
  161. # [01:38] <Hixie> <p> gives true styling benefits
  162. # [01:38] <tantek> and "heard them say" is not the best way of interpreting user needs. watching/analyzing user behaviors (e.g. in content publishing) is often better than simply listening to what they say they think they need.
  163. # [01:39] <Hixie> if your proposed variant of <cite> solves real problems, this would change my reaction, but currently i'm not aware of any real problems that would be solved by making <cite> cover citing names of people
  164. # [01:39] <Hixie> tantek: totally agreed re: user needs
  165. # [01:39] <Hixie> tantek: i've never seen a usability study where anything like citations on quoted has come up
  166. # [01:39] <tantek> hence I mentioned content publishing behavior
  167. # [01:40] <Hixie> (and i've seen a lot of them, i'm on google's usability lab access list so that i can keep an eye on this very kind of thing)
  168. # [01:40] <tantek> user studies may be sufficient, but are not necessarily necessary to make such a case
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  173. # [01:46] <tantek> Hixie, while I'm not sure I can necessarily meet your threshold for what you call a "real" problem, I'm fairly certain I can provide real world use cases with examples, and I'll at least do that.
  174. # [01:46] <Hixie> cool, that would certainly help
  175. # [01:48] <tantek> I think with sufficient real world use cases (with examples), at some point the advantage of keeping functionality which is allowed by (the admittedly ambiguously broad) wording of the existing HTML 4.01 spec is greater than the minor advantage of simplification/reduction that you gain by removing/dropping that functionality.
  176. # [01:48] <tantek> I understand that is a judgment call, and that reasonable people can come to different conclusions based on similar facts on such a point.
  177. # [01:48] <tantek> I hope by providing more data I can narrow any such gaps in conclusions at least a bit.
  178. # [01:51] <tantek> And for that matter, let me just say that I do commend your general effort at simplification/reduction, lest that is not clear by the arguments I've made above.
  179. # [01:51] <Hixie> fwiw, what html4 says has no bearing on what html5 says -- i only base the spec on legacy content and legacy UAs, not legacy specs.
  180. # [01:52] <Hixie> and don't worry, i don't take any offence at all from our discussions, i know your heart is in the same place as mine :-)
  181. # [01:53] <tantek> understood. I'm looking at the legacy content part of that, which, often reflects what html4.01 says, especially as interpreted by the broader web design / semantic HTML community.
  182. # [01:53] <Hixie> the broader web design / semantic HTML community is sadly a tiny minority of the wider web :-(
  183. # [01:53] <Hixie> from what i've seen, <cite> is almost always used to mean "italics"
  184. # [01:53] <Hixie> i'm willing to ignore that on the basis that that was never a valid use
  185. # [01:54] <Hixie> never even remotely a valid use
  186. # [01:55] <Hixie> i agree that some people mark up names using <cite>, as well as marking up titles, and some people (me, circa 2004) go out of their way to only mark up citations with <cite>
  187. # [01:55] <Hixie> so there is definitely use to back up all of these options
  188. # [01:55] <Hixie> this leaves the question of what is the most useful use we can put the element to
  189. # [01:56] <Hixie> and my conclusion so far is that the most useful use for <cite> is as an element to allow typographic control over titles, since those are often made italics
  190. # [01:56] <Hixie> and generally, names and titles aren't typeset the same way, so i am reluctant to make the element apply to both
  191. # [01:56] <Hixie> especially since we have so many ways of marking up names already (e.g. hCard, microdata vCard, RDFa vCard, etc)
  192. # [01:57] * nathanhammond_ patiently waits for the conversation about cite to come to a conclusion (2 hours now)
  193. # [01:57] <Hixie> hehe
  194. # [01:58] <Hixie> it's been much longer than 2 hours :-)
  195. # [01:58] <Hixie> we were talking abotu this in like 2005 already
  196. # [01:58] <nathanhammond_> okay, so just two hours today. :)
  197. # [01:58] <Hixie> :-)
  198. # [01:59] <nathanhammond_> at some point I've got a few comments and questions about some of the history management stuff in the spec
  199. # [02:00] <nathanhammond_> better to document it all and send it your way? or just converse here?
  200. # [02:01] <tantek> Hixie - indeed: http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/09/elements-of-xhtml/#slide32
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  202. # [02:03] <Hixie> nathanhammond_: i'm going offline in 2 minutes, but i'll be back in a few hours. If it's comments on problems in the spec, best to send the feedback to the list.
  203. # [02:03] <Hixie> nathanhammond_: if it's just questions about how it works, I can reply when I get back, and IRC is fine. Also, feel free to interrupt ongoing conversations if there is one in progress when you come here. :-)
  204. # [02:04] <nathanhammond_> arrr, it be related to problems
  205. # [02:04] <nathanhammond_> so it'll go to the list
  206. # [02:04] <nathanhammond_> but I'll probably document my concerns on a blog so that I can just hit the highlights on the list
  207. # [02:04] <nathanhammond_> and link for the full conversation
  208. # [02:05] <nathanhammond_> thank you sir.
  209. # [02:06] <Hixie> please send anything you want me to read to the list, so i can reply to it easily
  210. # [02:06] <Hixie> it's hard to reply to blogs in pine :-)
  211. # [02:06] <Hixie> ok gotta go
  212. # [02:06] <Hixie> bbl
  213. # [02:06] <nathanhammond_> true
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  217. # [02:23] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think the "installed apps" thread has not yet led to either a good statement of use cases, or a mechanism that actually has reasonable security characteristics
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  219. # [02:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: but it might be "good" in the sense that there is likely no spec action required
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  224. # [02:46] <othermaciej> annevk: I wonder how the XHTML2 folks plan to continue outside the W3C given the W3C's trademark on "XHTML" and standard document copyright
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  226. # [02:46] <othermaciej> annevk: I guess they'll have to rename it and rewrite the spec from scratch...
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  261. # [04:53] <nathanhammond> Hixie: you've got your email
  262. # [04:54] <nathanhammond> I'll stick around here in case I can help clarify some of what I said.
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  299. # [08:32] <jm2k> If you start a Web Worker on a page but then navigate to another page or domain (in same tab), does the web worker continue to compute?
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  302. # [08:38] <jm2k> eh, no one here :(
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  305. # [08:45] <inimino> jm2k: no, see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-workers/current-work/#the-worker%27s-lifetime
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  315. # [10:08] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  316. # [10:08] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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  322. # [10:21] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  323. # [10:21] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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  349. # [13:06] <zcorpan> Hixie: how does the spec handle document.documentElement.onclick=function(){alert(1)};document.documentElement.onclick=null
  350. # [13:07] <zcorpan> Hixie: the second assignment should cause the first event listener to be removed
  351. # [13:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: but in the spec i only see that a new event listener is to be registered
  352. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: about http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=624
  353. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> from looking through the v.nu code briefly, I think maybe that error message is not generated by v.nu code, but instead by URI-checking code in third-party library code
  354. # [13:33] <annevk> validator.nu should have a URL implementation :)
  355. # [13:34] <zcorpan> yeah i guess v.nu needs to know the URL encoding thing
  356. # [13:34] <gsnedders|work> I guess all URLs have a valid URL representation
  357. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> it may be that Henri's build patches some of the library code already, I don't know
  358. # [13:35] <gsnedders|work> As you can just use a URI
  359. # [13:36] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i guess the simplest path is to update the microsyntaxes wiki page
  360. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah
  361. # [13:38] <zcorpan> done
  362. # [13:48] * gsnedders|work discovers zcorpan is better at spelling than him
  363. # [13:48] <gsnedders|work> (in English, this is)
  364. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: given that the error message has the term "whitespace", I'm wondering if the microsyntax page wording might better be, "Whitespace (spaces) should be escaped as %20."
  365. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> or something
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  368. # [14:04] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: it's a wiki :)
  369. # [14:05] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: well, I was asking for your opinion about whether you think it'd be more clear, or less clear?
  370. # [14:06] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: maybe make it more general and give a specific example... Special characters should be URL-escaped, e.g. %20 for whitespace
  371. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> yeah
  372. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> maybe we could ask dude what he thinks would have been a helpful error message for his case
  373. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> they guy who tweeted about it, I mean
  374. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> *the
  375. # [14:11] <zcorpan> also see http://www.tomleadbetter.co.uk/blog/entry/html5/
  376. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> the _URL-escaped_ part could be a hyperlink
  377. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> anyway, I think in general the way to get better error messages from v.nu is not to mess too much with the code (e.g., jing), but to supplement with refinements to the microsyntax stuff and other stuff in the wiki, and to put more into the code for the assertions-checking phase
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  380. # [14:48] <Philip`> http://h1debate.com/
  381. # [14:48] * Quits: gsnedders|work (n=gsnedder@pat.se.opera.com) ("Adios Intarwebs!")
  382. # [14:48] * Philip` thinks it kind of misses the idea of a debate, vs an opinion poll
  383. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> what the hell
  384. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> I can7t tell what the debate is
  385. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> where's the question?
  386. # [14:50] <Philip`> See the column headings
  387. # [14:50] <annevk> Hixie, I thought of more IANA business
  388. # [14:50] <annevk> re: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090701#l-557
  389. # [14:51] <annevk> the form submission formats
  390. # [14:52] <annevk> application/x-www-form-urlencoded and multipart/form-data
  391. # [14:52] <annevk> (it was brought up in the HTTP WG meeting)
  392. # [14:58] <annevk> application/x-www-form-urlencoded seems to be nowhere defined
  393. # [14:58] <annevk> the other is http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2388
  394. # [15:02] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@pat.se.opera.com)
  395. # [15:03] <annevk> oh duh, HTML5 references rfc2388
  396. # [15:03] <annevk> but application/x-www-form-urlencoded would still need to be defined
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  398. # [15:20] <annevk> sebmarkbage, interesting idea
  399. # [15:23] <sebmarkbage> annevk: yea. Downloading might be specified too. So that no browser downloads the whole archive several times. It should be loaded once for atleast the life time of the document.
  400. # [15:25] * gsnedders fails to find the idea in the logs
  401. # [15:26] <gsnedders> Oh, sebmarkbage = Sebastian Markbåge?
  402. # [15:26] <sebmarkbage> yes
  403. # [15:26] <annevk> life time might be tricky to define
  404. # [15:26] <gsnedders> sebmarkbage: I think HTTP pipelining over comes the majority of issues
  405. # [15:27] <annevk> and you probably want a custom protocol to make it work so you can have fragment identifiers for referenced resources as well
  406. # [15:27] <annevk> gsnedders, yeah
  407. # [15:27] <annevk> gsnedders, though you'd need a new version of that that isn't broken by server implementations :/
  408. # [15:28] <gsnedders> annevk: We do use it sometimes, though, albeit with apparently crazy heuristics to decide whether to enable it
  409. # [15:29] <gsnedders> annevk: What servers actually break with it, nowadays?
  410. # [15:29] <annevk> i know
  411. # [15:29] <annevk> i don't know
  412. # [15:30] <gsnedders> Apparently broken with IIS4 and 5
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  414. # [15:34] <Philip`> I think I remember people saying proxies were a problem for pipelining, more than servers
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  416. # [15:34] <gsnedders> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.infosystems.www.browsers.ms-windows/msg/6766229fd0b610ca?hl=en
  417. # [15:35] <sebmarkbage> yea, it's troublesome for high performance servers too.
  418. # [15:35] <Philip`> which means you can't just ask the server whether it's non-buggy
  419. # [15:35] <sebmarkbage> But there's an additional gain by packaging it all together - You can gzip the content as a single unit.
  420. # [15:37] <gsnedders> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=264354
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  428. # [16:45] <annevk> Why was < in an attribute name made a parse error? It would be non-conforming anyway...
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  433. # [16:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: http://logand.com/sw/wps/index.html
  434. # [16:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: We were joking about doing that a few days ago
  435. # [16:53] <gsnedders> mookid: ^^
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  441. # [17:32] <webben> annevk or annevk2: re http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jul/0872.html and "if we add APIs to <canvas> that make it do the same as SVG"
  442. # [17:32] * Quits: abii (n=macbook@cm27.delta30.maxonline.com.sg)
  443. # [17:32] <webben> it seems that some canvas UI developers don't regard being able to manipulate an accessibility API directly as anything like the same as having to build a DOM
  444. # [17:33] <webben> The guys behind Cappuchino took a close look at ARIA, and largely rejected it on the basis that it requires DOM manipulation.
  445. # [17:33] <annevk> right
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  447. # [17:34] <webben> If there's a role for bolt-ons of this sort, it's likely to back widget systems like Cappuchino.
  448. # [17:34] <annevk> turning <canvas> into a DOM-based model would not make them happy
  449. # [17:34] <webben> I thought Rich was talking about an accessibility API model rather than a DOM model.
  450. # [17:34] <webben> which seems to match what the Cappuchino guys were asking for
  451. # [17:35] <webben> http://rossboucher.com/2009/03/01/limitations-of-the-wai-aria/
  452. # [17:35] <webben> is the post I'm thinking of.
  453. # [17:35] <annevk> thanks
  454. # [17:35] <annevk> Rich was talking about an object model as well as an accessibility API as far as I can tell
  455. # [17:35] <webben> okay
  456. # [17:36] <annevk> but yeah, maybe we do need an API
  457. # [17:36] <webben> I'm not sure of the practical differences between a DOM and accessibility API manipulation (I've not done any desktop GUI programming).
  458. # [17:36] <annevk> I just don't think we should rush into it
  459. # [17:36] <annevk> I don't want another ARIA
  460. # [17:38] <Dashiva> Darxus: Irony, idioms, implications, etc remain in any language
  461. # [17:38] <annevk> webben, btw, "As far as Cappuccino implementation is concerned, there is enough in ARIA that we can significantly enhance the accessibility of Cappuccino, if not 100%."
  462. # [17:38] <webben> annevk: I think that reflects the fact that Cappuchino isn't entirely Canvas.
  463. # [17:39] <webben> there's a lot of divitis and spanitis "controls" in there too.
  464. # [17:39] <webben> so there's already DOM hooks for some things
  465. # [17:39] <annevk> as I said in my latest email, entirely <canvas> is not what <canvas> is meant for
  466. # [17:39] <webben> Sure.
  467. # [17:39] <annevk> it's an indication of other deeper flaws that need fixing
  468. # [17:40] <annevk> and his example of SVG is bogus afaict, since SVG does have a DOM
  469. # [17:40] <annevk> so that leaves Bespin
  470. # [17:40] <webben> yep
  471. # [17:40] <webben> i doubt Bespin will be the last tho.
  472. # [17:42] <annevk> I'll counter with premature optimization
  473. # [17:42] * Quits: tfh (n=tfh@highlandpark.netcraft.com) ("leaving")
  474. # [17:44] <annevk> webben, you have a point though and I hope you keeping dropping by to make them ;) (don't want to be entirely dismissive)
  475. # [17:49] * Parts: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  476. # [17:53] <webben> annevk: will do :)
  477. # [17:56] <annevk> ffs, Pirate Bay is to be banned in the Netherlands
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  480. # [18:02] <Dashiva> annevk: So what? It's going to die as soon as the sale goes through anyhow.
  481. # [18:02] <Lachy> annevk, not to worry, if it gets sold, TPB will be dead in a month anyway
  482. # [18:04] <annevk> it's the principle
  483. # [18:04] <annevk> also, the main guy in charge of the sale apparently quit and there's some rumor over lack of sufficient money
  484. # [18:04] <annevk> in any case, I don't like it that this is possible at all
  485. # [18:04] <annevk> I don't mind the consequences so much
  486. # [18:05] <Lachy> yeah, from what I've read about it, your legal system has been abused by BREIN
  487. # [18:06] <zcorpan> annevk: Element.children is in the IDL in web dom core at least
  488. # [18:11] <annevk> gsnedders, ^^
  489. # [18:11] <annevk> Lachy, BRAIN sucks donkey balls
  490. # [18:11] <annevk> really
  491. # [18:11] <annevk> BREIN*
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  496. # [18:26] * annevk wonders if Leif realizes that </ no longer needs to be escaped because we removed SGML cruft, not because we kept it around...
  497. # [18:28] <annevk> then again, he compares JavaScript and PHP as if they are the same and does not see the logic in treating one as a first-class Web citizen and the other as yet another server-side templating language...
  498. # [18:36] <Dashiva> I have problems taking the proposal seriously myself
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  502. # [18:42] <Darxus> Dashiva: Yes but Lajlan has stuff to indicate what is an irony, idiom, etc..
  503. # [18:43] <Darxus> Lojban, sorry. I keep getting it confused with the spelling of its predecessor.
  504. # [18:44] <Darxus> "pe'a" "marks a construct as figurative (non-literal/metaphorical) speech/text
  505. # [18:44] <Darxus> "
  506. # [18:45] <Philip`> Hooray for "begs the question" vs "raises the question"
  507. # [18:46] <Philip`> particularly when someone actually uses the former correctly (as far as I can tell), and then gets told off for doing so
  508. # [18:55] <Dashiva> Darxus: That's same level
  509. # [18:55] <Dashiva> But you can still use real irony, without the marker
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  515. # [19:10] <annevk> oh crap
  516. # [19:10] <annevk> dates discussion
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  546. # [20:59] <gsnedders_> hmm… -0.01% idle CPU time.
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  552. # [21:06] <sebmarkbage> annevk: About packages. It may be better to supply it as an alternative download for compatibility. <img src="file.jpg" psrc="archive.tgz#file.jpg" /> { background-image: url(file.jpg); background-image: purl(archive.tgz#file.jpg); } I don't think it needs it's own protocol/scheme.
  553. # [21:12] <annevk> well, dunno if they're really needed (see HTTP pipelining which would be much neater) and that syntax does not solve the issue I raised
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  556. # [21:19] <sebmarkbage> annevk: HTTP pipelining needs major fixes to make that viable. Timeout issues for servers, broken servers, broken proxies... And you don't get the added benefit of compressing the traffic as a unit.
  557. # [21:20] <annevk> is that a major benefit?
  558. # [21:20] <sebmarkbage> What issue did you raise? Fragment identifiers? The multipart, tar, etc. already has identifiers.
  559. # [21:20] <annevk> yes, fragment identifiers
  560. # [21:22] <sebmarkbage> On text data, at least, it's a major benefit to compress multiple small parts as a single unit. Hence .tar.gz and not .gz.tar
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  562. # [21:25] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  563. # [21:27] <sebmarkbage> annevk: As I see it, there's nothing in the URI specs that would prevent one from using the fragment to identify a part of a multipart document. Of course it needs to be speced. But there's no need to define an additional protocol or URI scheme.
  564. # [21:32] <sebmarkbage> rfc2854 for text/html, rfc5147 for text/plain, rfcXXXX for multipart/mixed
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  569. # [21:50] <annevk> sebmarkbage, the issue is how I'd use a fragment identifier for the document then
  570. # [21:56] <sebmarkbage> annevk: Well that would depend on the format chosen. application/tar obviously has filenames. multipart/form-data has a name attribute in Content-Disposition. multipart/related has Content-ID...
  571. # [22:02] <Philip`> annevk: Are you able to SSH to Dreamhost? (I get "ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host" whenever I try on hobgoblin)
  572. # [22:05] <annevk> me too
  573. # [22:06] <Philip`> Okay
  574. # [22:08] <annevk> sebmarkbage, then it doesn't work
  575. # [22:09] <annevk> Philip`, not sure why it doesn't work
  576. # [22:10] <annevk> Philip`, if it still doesn't tomorrow I'll ask DreamHost
  577. # [22:10] <annevk> (unless you're in a hurry then I can do it in a few minutes)
  578. # [22:10] <sebmarkbage> annevk, if one format is chosen as a standard for something like psrc, I don't see why. All the parts are already there. All you'd have to do is specify how the fragment part is suppose to be handled for mime type: multipart/x
  579. # [22:11] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81)
  580. # [22:13] <Philip`> annevk: No hurry :-)
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  582. # [22:15] <annevk> sebmarkbage, say for an SVG file I need to use a fragment identifier to get a particular effect; as in /example.svg#view... (forgot the syntax); how do I express that if example.svg is packaged?
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  585. # [22:20] <sebmarkbage> annevk, rfc3986 (generic uri) allows for the possibility of multiple #, so: /archive.tgz#example.svg#view...
  586. # [22:21] <sebmarkbage> if the particular format chosen allows for # in the identifier, I guess it'd be encoded
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  597. # Session Close: Fri Jul 31 00:00:00 2009

The end :)