/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-08-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 01 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:05] <gsnedders_> annevk: Happy birthday (provided Facebook is honest)!
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  5. # [00:13] <virtuelv> gsnedders_: http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/08/birthday
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  7. # [00:13] <gsnedders_> Then I guess Facebook is honest.
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  9. # [00:14] <ezyang> Whoo, happy birthday annevk!
  10. # [00:19] <hober> http://pbfcomics.com/archive_b/PBF032-Todays_My_Birthday.gif
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  17. # [01:03] <Darxus> Div's suck for page layout.
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  28. # [01:39] <tfh> anyone know if "origin" values, which make an appearance in the Web Sockets draft, are fully defined by http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-origin-02, or elsewhere?
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  30. # [01:50] <Hixie> yeah that's where they're supposed to be defined
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  32. # [01:50] <Hixie> tfh: if there's a problem either with websockets or abarth's origin draft, here's a good place to ask about it before mailing the lists
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  42. # [02:36] <tfh> Hixie: thanks
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  56. # [03:57] <Darxus> How do you feel about me doing two column page layouts using the table element, where each column is a language? With a thead containing <img src="languageflag.svg" alt="language" title="language" /> ?
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  58. # [03:57] <Darxus> Is that sufficiently tabular?
  59. # [03:58] <Darxus> To qualify as HTML5 conformant?
  60. # [04:02] <Darxus> Seems like it would probably be easier to read with a screen reader than a bunch of <div style="float: left;">'s.
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  77. # [05:02] <jwalden> wait, I'm older than annevk? what the heck, why did I think otherwise? :-\
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  79. # [05:09] <Darxus> /clear
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  89. # [06:02] <Hixie> man i've really no idea what's going on in the htmlwg these days
  90. # [06:02] <Hixie> i feel like i missed something about 2 weeks ago and i've been confused ever since
  91. # [06:09] <tantek> Hixie - I believe that was around the time I joined as an invited expert, or maybe that was only a week ago. Probably just a coincidence.
  92. # [06:10] <Hixie> hah
  93. # [06:19] <tantek> apologies for any disturbances I may have inadvertently caused.
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  95. # [06:39] <othermaciej> things I learned today: Sam has no tolerance for procedural games
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  97. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> tantek has a caused a disturbance in the Force
  98. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> I think to balance it out will require some human sacrifice
  99. # [06:43] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: do you personally think your document is ready to be published as WD by the way?
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  102. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: no, I don't. I suppose I should send a message to the list to make that clear.
  103. # [06:44] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: probably! Sam did ask
  104. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> OK
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  106. # [07:07] <othermaciej> I'm really curious if Manu is actually planning to propose DOM changes as part of his HTML5+RDF thing
  107. # [07:07] <othermaciej> that would certainly raise the stakes
  108. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> yeah, definitely would
  109. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: so I just sent a reply to the list, cc'ed you and Sam
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  111. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> I doesn't seem to have shown up on the list yet, afaict
  112. # [07:12] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I saw it (maybe from the Cc)
  113. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> OK
  114. # [07:14] <othermaciej> I still don't like the basic multiple drafts idea, but Sam seems to be administering it in a fairly ad-hoc fashion
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  143. # [10:09] <annevk> thanks gsnedders, ezyang :)
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  145. # [10:19] <GPHemsley> what happened to the width attribute on <col>?
  146. # [10:19] <annevk> CSS
  147. # [10:19] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-col-width
  148. # [10:21] * GPHemsley cires at one-page links ;_;
  149. # [10:22] <Hixie> you can just add multipage/ into the URL :-)
  150. # [10:22] <Hixie> it'll autoredirect you to the right place
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  152. # [10:22] <GPHemsley> oh, that's nice of it :)
  153. # [10:23] <GPHemsley> so is style="width: N%;" the same?
  154. # [10:25] <Hixie> style="" is allowed in HTML5, but generally i would recommend using an external style sheet
  155. # [10:26] <GPHemsley> I'm questioning whether that CSS will give me the same output
  156. # [10:26] <annevk> did you try?
  157. # [10:26] <GPHemsley> no :)
  158. # [10:28] <GPHemsley> could someone remind me what the current standing is with regard to closing empty elements with the trailing slash?
  159. # [10:29] <GPHemsley> (i.e., e.g. <img />)
  160. # [10:29] <othermaciej_> GPHemsley: I think the only difference would be cascade order
  161. # [10:30] <GPHemsley> ?
  162. # [10:30] <othermaciej_> (between using the width="" attribute and either inline style or a stylesheet rule)
  163. # [10:30] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  164. # [10:30] <GPHemsley> ah
  165. # [10:31] <othermaciej> for void elements, it's allowed but not required to use the trailing slash syntax
  166. # [10:31] <othermaciej> you can't use that syntax for elements that aren't labeled as "void elements" though, even if they happen to be empty
  167. # [10:31] <othermaciej> so <div /> for example is not kosher, in the text/html serialization
  168. # [10:31] <GPHemsley> am I gonna get complaints about NET-enabled start tags, though?
  169. # [10:31] <GPHemsley> or whatever that dumb error is
  170. # [10:32] <othermaciej> not in HTML5
  171. # [10:32] <GPHemsley> ok
  172. # [10:32] <GPHemsley> so logic prevails for a change :)
  173. # [10:33] * Hixie points at the topic
  174. # [10:33] <GPHemsley> hah
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  176. # [10:33] <othermaciej> the original illogic was allowing sending of XHTML with text/thml MIME type
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  179. # [10:35] <othermaciej> or alternately you could say it was illogical to keep specifying HTML as an SGML application
  180. # [10:36] <GPHemsley> but I can keep text/html and <void />, right?
  181. # [10:36] <GPHemsley> in HTML5
  182. # [10:38] <othermaciej> yes
  183. # [10:38] <GPHemsley> OK, then I'm happy :)
  184. # [10:38] <GPHemsley> <3 Hixie for fixing the web
  185. # [10:38] <othermaciej> I don't think Hixie is terribly proud of this particular detail in the spec :-)
  186. # [10:39] <Hixie> i hate the /> crap :-)
  187. # [10:39] <Hixie> i wish people wouldn't ever use /> in text/html :-)
  188. # [10:39] <GPHemsley> oh... but that's because you follow the topic ;)
  189. # [10:39] <GPHemsley> I think it makes much more sense to note the beginning and end of every tag
  190. # [10:39] <GPHemsley> then nothing can run away
  191. # [10:40] <Hixie> unfortunately, unlike what some people on public-html seem to think, i don't get my way when i'm wrong :-(
  192. # [10:40] <GPHemsley> heh
  193. # [10:41] <GPHemsley> for the record, it does appear that the col width and CSS width are the same, thankfully :)
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  197. # [10:46] <GPHemsley> well... the index is rather useless ATM...
  198. # [10:48] <GPHemsley> good to see &apos; defined, too :)
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  200. # [10:49] <GPHemsley> hmm... comments still aren't allowed to have -- ?
  201. # [10:51] <zcorpan> GPHemsley: right. it has weird behavior in old browsers that implement sgml-style comments, and also you wouldn't be able to convert it to xml
  202. # [10:51] <GPHemsley> ah, OK
  203. # [10:51] <zcorpan> annevk: grattis
  204. # [10:52] * GPHemsley wonders why the numbered lists don't use different numbering systems, to avoid phrases like "step 2 in these inner steps"
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  207. # [10:56] <Hixie> GPHemsley: these days i name the steps
  208. # [10:56] <Hixie> GPHemsley: any remaining cases of "jump to step 2" or stuff like that is just old text i haven't updated recently
  209. # [10:57] <GPHemsley> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#determining-the-character-encoding
  210. # [11:03] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Also, any word on this? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7150
  211. # [11:04] <Hixie> when i get to it, i'll comment on the bug :-)
  212. # [11:05] <GPHemsley> heh, OK :P
  213. # [11:16] <zcorpan> GPHemsley: hixie has said in email before that examples intentionally vary as to not give a perception that one coding style is discouraged or anything
  214. # [11:16] <GPHemsley> oh, really?
  215. # [11:16] <GPHemsley> that's too bad...
  216. # [11:17] <zcorpan> some examples use unquoted attributes, some omit tags, etc
  217. # [11:17] <zcorpan> why is it too bad?
  218. # [11:18] <GPHemsley> because I prefer consistency and unambiguity (e.g. lowercase elements and quoted attributes)
  219. # [11:21] <zcorpan> other people may prefer typing less markup that isn't needed
  220. # [11:21] <Hixie> uppercase elements and unquoted attributes aren't ambiguous
  221. # [11:22] <Hixie> and consistency gives the perception that other coding styles are discouraged
  222. # [11:22] <zcorpan> or holding down the shift button for all three keystrokes in "<P>"
  223. # [11:22] <GPHemsley> Hixie: well, that would be my intention ;)
  224. # [11:23] <zcorpan> um, i meant "</P>"
  225. # [11:23] <Hixie> well, if we're going to be consistent, i vote for uppercase element names, no />s ever, no quotes around attributes unless absolutely necessary, and all omittable tags always omitted
  226. # [11:23] <zcorpan> on swedish keyboard layout you have to hold shift for the slash and >
  227. # [11:23] <GPHemsley> ah
  228. # [11:23] <krijnh> Holding down shift for </P> creates a PI! We need PIs in HTML5!
  229. # [11:23] <krijnh> OMG, why aren't PIs allowed, grmbl grmbl
  230. # [11:24] <Hixie> what would a PI be allowed for
  231. # [11:24] <zcorpan> php!
  232. # [11:24] <krijnh> For PHP, I want to validate my PHP as HTML!
  233. # [11:24] <Hixie> wouldn't PHP use... PHP, rather than HTML?
  234. # [11:24] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@98.210.154.133)
  235. # [11:24] <GPHemsley> Hey, I'm just talking about my personal opinion here.
  236. # [11:24] <krijnh> You guys are taking away my ability to validate my PHP, you suck!
  237. # [11:24] <Hixie> GPHemsley: right, but where the spec allows multiple things, the spec doesn't have an opinion :-)
  238. # [11:24] <krijnh> Okay, enough for today :)
  239. # [11:25] <Hixie> i think Turing took that ability away
  240. # [11:25] <Hixie> but anyway
  241. # [11:25] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Right. I get that. I'm content to drop the issue. :)
  242. # [11:25] <krijnh> Heh
  243. # [11:25] <krijnh> (Do people mailing this stuff to the list know they are wasting so much of other peoples time?)
  244. # [11:26] <takkaria> no
  245. # [11:26] <GPHemsley> As long as the spec lets me do it my way, I'm good.
  246. # [11:26] <takkaria> because leif wants to validate his HTML as PHP. :)
  247. # [11:26] <krijnh> (When I'm reading this stuff on my phone I'm really not that happy with being subscribed to the list :()
  248. # [11:26] <Hixie> krijnh: i'm sure they're trying to do the right thing
  249. # [11:26] <takkaria> er, his PHP as HTML
  250. # [11:26] <GPHemsley> And, in case it's not already obvious, I don't read the mailing list. :)
  251. # [11:26] <Hixie> can't say i blame you
  252. # [11:26] <GPHemsley> heh
  253. # [11:27] <krijnh> I wish I wasn't as addicted to it :)
  254. # [11:27] * zcorpan would like a filter that marks all non-technical emails as read
  255. # [11:28] <zcorpan> i have developed such a filter in my brain, but it takes more time than i'd like
  256. # [11:28] <zcorpan> and sometimes it doesn't work and i read silly emails anyway
  257. # [11:28] <krijnh> At least you get payed for it :)
  258. # [11:29] <GPHemsley> BTW, I got flack from people on the Wordpress forum for attempting to nest <em> tags, as allowed by HTML5.
  259. # [11:29] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  260. # [11:30] <GPHemsley> Wordpress didn't like that, and decided to close the first <em> tag before the second one
  261. # [11:30] <GPHemsley> And it bugs me when people (well, machines) mess with my HTML without my permission
  262. # [11:34] <krijnh> http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/07/31/html-4-considered-harmful/ oh noes!
  263. # [11:38] <Philip`> http://blog.whatwg.org/ - <p style="display: none"> <a href="http://childrenscenter.boisestate.edu/CFIDE/gettingstarted/refusion.php?p=sildenafil-rezeptfrei">viagra rezeptfrei</a>
  264. # [11:38] <Philip`> I don't think cleaning up the templates every few days is a great way to go
  265. # [11:38] <krijnh> Philip`: that's Microdata :)
  266. # [11:38] <Hixie> i thought lachy had fixed it
  267. # [11:38] <Philip`> He had
  268. # [11:39] <Philip`> but presumably nobody has fixed the actual vulnerability yet
  269. # [11:39] <Hixie> oh
  270. # [11:39] <Hixie> i thought that's what he'd fixed
  271. # [11:39] <Philip`> or the server's more deeply infected, or something
  272. # [11:39] <Philip`> Evidently it's not fixed :-)
  273. # [11:40] <Hixie> clearly
  274. # [11:43] * Joins: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@200.84-49-121.nextgentel.com)
  275. # [11:44] <Philip`> It's lucky that these people never want to actually cause any direct harm and e.g. delete all the site's content, they just want to spam search engines
  276. # [11:47] <annevk> zcorpan, Swedish?
  277. # [11:47] <annevk> Google says yes; bedankt :)
  278. # [11:47] <Hixie> Philip`: i have backups of the database, but yes
  279. # [11:47] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@U0dec.u.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  280. # [11:47] <krijnh> 23 pas, jonkie
  281. # [11:48] <annevk> mag nog steeds ongestraft flamen :p
  282. # [11:48] <krijnh> Ja, dat je daar mee weg komt, wow :)
  283. # [11:49] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  284. # [11:49] <Hixie> i thought lachy was going to set the perms so nothing was writable or something
  285. # [11:53] <GPHemsley> what's the deal with the accesskey attribute?
  286. # [11:54] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  287. # [11:55] <Hixie> is there a deal?
  288. # [11:56] <GPHemsley> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/ says it's absent
  289. # [11:56] <Hixie> then that document is wrong :-)
  290. # [11:56] <GPHemsley> that's what I thought
  291. # [11:57] <krijnh> Somebody should submit a new document, so we can have a poll about it
  292. # [11:58] <krijnh> Okay, I will write some text.
  293. # [11:58] <annevk> GPHemsley, refresh
  294. # [11:58] <GPHemsley> annevk: :)
  295. # [11:59] <annevk> would "Gordon Hemsley" be ok for the acknowledgments section?
  296. # [11:59] <GPHemsley> I prefer Gordon P. Hemsley
  297. # [11:59] <annevk> k
  298. # [12:00] <annevk> refresh
  299. # [12:00] <krijnh> I formally object to this refreshing stuff!
  300. # [12:00] <GPHemsley> ^_^
  301. # [12:02] <GPHemsley> annevk: Happy Birthday, BTW. :)
  302. # [12:09] <annevk> Hixie, btw, when you changed property to itemprop you did not change the order of global attributes so they're no longer a-z now
  303. # [12:09] <annevk> GPHemsley, ta
  304. # [12:12] <gsnedders_> Hixie: Lachy did set the perms like that…
  305. # [12:13] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  306. # [12:14] <Hixie> annevk: file a bug using the new box :-)
  307. # [12:15] <Philip`> Did Lachy set the permissions in such a way that the attacker can't simply switch them back?
  308. # [12:16] * Philip` hopes the attacker only has complete access to the machine under the web server's username
  309. # [12:17] <annevk> Hixie, where should I file bugs to suggest that the form is cleared after a bug has been filed?
  310. # [12:17] <Hixie> to file that bug, after you file a bug, click on the field and press Ctrl+A
  311. # [12:17] <Hixie> Cmd+A on mac
  312. # [12:17] <gsnedders_> :P
  313. # [12:18] <annevk> mwaha
  314. # [12:18] <annevk> also, it does not seem to accurately track what I'm looking at
  315. # [12:18] <Philip`> Clearing it would prevent accidentally double-clicking on the submit button
  316. # [12:18] <annevk> I first have to click the screen or something...
  317. # [12:20] <krijnh> annevk: html4-difference still mentions the eventsource element
  318. # [12:20] <krijnh> differences even
  319. # [12:21] <gsnedders_> Hixie: Useful answer re the spam in #wordpress: talk to your host
  320. # [12:21] <Hixie> gsnedders_: my host is lachy :-)
  321. # [12:21] <gsnedders_> :P
  322. # [12:21] <GPHemsley> Yeah, those Wordpress people are always very helpful
  323. # [12:22] <krijnh> annevk: also key words is one word, I think
  324. # [12:23] <GPHemsley> krijnh: I agree, but they're using it consistently as two
  325. # [12:23] <GPHemsley> in the main spec, too
  326. # [12:23] <krijnh> HTML 5 itself uses "2.4.3 Keywords and enumerated attributes"
  327. # [12:23] <GPHemsley> ...except there
  328. # [12:25] <gsnedders_> Hixie: Now apparently Apache is at fault
  329. # [12:26] * gsnedders_ sighs
  330. # [12:27] * gsnedders_ sighs
  331. # [12:27] <GPHemsley> Is the official HTML5 validator w3.org's or validator.nu's?
  332. # [12:27] * GPHemsley pats gsnedders_ on the back
  333. # [12:27] <Hixie> there is no official HTML5 validator
  334. # [12:27] <Hixie> and hopefully there will never be one
  335. # [12:27] <krijnh> annevk: <img border> and <script language> are not allowed, according to html5.validator.nu
  336. # [12:28] <GPHemsley> Hixie: recommended, perhaps?
  337. # [12:28] <gsnedders_> Hixie: Could I possibly get SSH access to the blog at least?
  338. # [12:28] <Hixie> gsnedders_: hm?
  339. # [12:28] <Hixie> gsnedders_: it's under lachy's account
  340. # [12:28] <gsnedders_> Hixie: Ah
  341. # [12:28] <annevk> krijnh, bug in validator.nu
  342. # [12:28] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Or, last resort, your preference? :)
  343. # [12:28] <gsnedders_> Hixie: So the answer is ask Lachy? :P
  344. # [12:28] <annevk> krijnh, fixed the other nits
  345. # [12:28] <Hixie> gsnedders_: yes
  346. # [12:28] <krijnh> annevk: ah, okay
  347. # [12:28] <gsnedders_> Lachy: ping
  348. # [12:28] <Hixie> GPHemsley: valkidator.whatwg.org
  349. # [12:28] <gsnedders_> Where has Lachy been anyway?
  350. # [12:30] <Hixie> dunno
  351. # [12:30] <Hixie> but i'm going to bed
  352. # [12:30] <Hixie> nn
  353. # [12:30] <gsnedders_> nighty
  354. # [12:34] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@li30-216.members.linode.com) ("leaving")
  355. # [12:34] <krijnh> annevk: die puntjes zijn geen acknowledgment waard imho..
  356. # [12:35] <zcorpan> Hixie: have you seen http://projectcerbera.com/do#html ?
  357. # [12:36] <annevk> krijnh, net als Hixie voeg ik een naam toe voor elke wijziging die ik maak dankzij feedback van die persoon
  358. # [12:37] <krijnh> Ow okay
  359. # [12:37] <annevk> hoeft er ook niemand te bepalen wat belangrijk is of niet
  360. # [12:37] <krijnh> True
  361. # [12:38] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("Ex-Chat")
  362. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> is there a way in CSS to make the list number markers in <ol> lists right-aligned instead of left-aligned?
  363. # [12:41] <takkaria> flip the rtl setting, and then flip it back again for its il children?
  364. # [12:41] <takkaria> *li
  365. # [12:41] <takkaria> though maybe they're ill too, I really have no idea
  366. # [12:42] <takkaria> oh, I think I totally misunderstood you there
  367. # [12:42] <takkaria> nevermind
  368. # [12:44] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@li30-216.members.linode.com)
  369. # [12:47] * gsnedders_ shudders at the thought of that, knowing some browsers don't cope with it well
  370. # [12:48] <jmb> I guess you could do something with ol li::marker { text-align: right; }, assuming anything actually implements that :)
  371. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> takkaria, jmb : thanks
  372. # [12:49] <krijnh> li { direction: rtl; unicode-bidi: embed; text-align: left; }
  373. # [12:49] <krijnh> Works great :)
  374. # [12:49] <krijnh> Even without the unicode-bidi: embed;
  375. # [12:52] <Lachy> gsnedders_, send me a public key
  376. # [12:53] <gsnedders_> Lachy: What's your email?
  377. # [12:53] <Lachy> surely it's in your address book?
  378. # [12:53] <krijnh> Don't you guys work at the same company?
  379. # [12:53] <Lachy> lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au
  380. # [12:53] <gsnedders_> Lachy: Probably
  381. # [12:54] <gsnedders_> krijnh: Shhh
  382. # [12:54] <Lachy> gsnedders_, after I've added it, log in using: ssh lhunt@blog.whatwg.org
  383. # [12:54] * gsnedders_ can claim to be Lachy!
  384. # [12:55] <gsnedders_> Lachy: sending
  385. # [12:55] <gsnedders_> Lachy: sent
  386. # [12:58] <annevk> Lachy, I forwarded you some information on a better skin
  387. # [12:58] <annevk> Lachy, let me know if I can help
  388. # [12:58] <annevk> Lachy, getting rid of the default would be great
  389. # [12:59] <annevk> Lachy, I think we should make some changes to the template pages as well; I can do that too if I get access
  390. # [13:01] <Lachy> gsnedders_, done.
  391. # [13:01] <Lachy> annevk, send a public key
  392. # [13:02] <annevk> I've no idea where I stored my public key...
  393. # [13:03] <annevk> maybe this is best done later
  394. # [13:03] <gsnedders_> ~/.ssh?
  395. # [13:03] <Lachy> just send a copy of your authorized_keys file that you have on dreamhost
  396. # [13:03] <annevk> I should clean up a little
  397. # [13:03] <Lachy> or you should be able to extract your public key from your private key file, if you know the right command
  398. # [13:04] <Lachy> I think it's the openssl rsa or rsautl command
  399. # [13:04] <gsnedders_> Why on earth is there a fly flying around here when windows are so wide open?
  400. # [13:05] <Lachy> gsnedders_, having the windows open would explain how it came in
  401. # [13:06] <gsnedders_> Indeed, but it's doing amazingly well at failing to leave
  402. # [13:06] * gsnedders_ hears a thud behind him and sees a corpse drop
  403. # [13:07] <Lachy> gsnedders_, did the fly win or lose?
  404. # [13:07] <gsnedders_> Well, I guess it would say it lost, if it were alive to say so
  405. # [13:11] <Lachy> gsnedders_, what did you want access to the blog for anyway?
  406. # [13:16] <Lachy> I really don't understand how the hacker got into the templates again. I definitely changed the file permissions for the template to be -r--r--r--
  407. # [13:16] <Lachy> but now they're -rw-r--r--
  408. # [13:20] <gsnedders_> Lachy: Try and see if I can work out how they did again
  409. # [13:21] <Lachy> gsnedders_, ok. I'll just restore a copy of our original templates, which had a few modificiations like showing the author and stuff
  410. # [13:25] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
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  413. # [13:28] <Lachy> what the hell? When I try to delete the hacked template directory, I get permission denied errors, despite me being the owner of the files and having write permission set
  414. # [13:28] <gsnedders_> Lachy: where?
  415. # [13:30] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@adsl-75-36-158-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  416. # [13:30] <Lachy> oh, nevermind. The directory itself didn't have write permission set
  417. # [13:30] <Lachy> I thought I'd looked at that ealier and it did.
  418. # [13:36] <Lachy> I have now restored the original, slightly modified, template and set the permissions to -r--r--r-- and dr-xr-xr-x for everything in there
  419. # [13:37] <Lachy> and I have created a complete backup copy in the themes directory
  420. # [13:38] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-67-180-85-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  421. # [13:39] <Lachy> I wonder if it's possible for the permissions to be changed by some code in PHP, and whether wordpress does that for any reason
  422. # [13:40] <Lachy> if it does, that could be how we got hacked again
  423. # [13:46] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-67-180-85-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  424. # [14:07] * Disconnected
  425. # [14:07] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  426. # [14:07] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  427. # [14:07] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  428. # [14:07] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  429. # [14:12] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  430. # [14:12] <Lachy> actually, it looks like I do have access to the logs in ~/logs/
  431. # [14:12] <Lachy> didn't realise that was there
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  438. # [16:22] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  439. # [16:22] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  440. # [16:48] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@a91-156-62-135.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  441. # [16:58] <Philip`> "Your PeopleSoft connection has expired. For increased security on this site, connections are expired after 60 minutes of inactivity. Your PeopleSoft session has expired. Close all browser windows before logging in again. If this is your only active PeopleSoft session, click the Sign In link to sign in again. <a href=...>Sign in to PeopleSoft</a>"
  442. # [16:58] <Philip`> Glad to see the PeopleSoft people aren't passing up an opportunity to make me aware of their software
  443. # [17:00] <takkaria> oh, yeah, PeopleSoft's stuff is awesome
  444. # [17:01] <takkaria> manchester uni's instance of their student software has "In the interests of performance and efficiency, this website supports the Western European Character Set (ISO 8859/1)" written by the login box
  445. # [17:02] <gsnedders_> takkaria: But I want to pay in €!
  446. # [17:02] <Philip`> I bet you wouldn't dare entering any non-ASCII characters, though
  447. # [17:03] <jcranmer> no, everyone should pay in ¤!
  448. # [17:04] <Dashiva> Yeah, UTF-8 is such a performance hog
  449. # [17:04] <gsnedders_> Hmm, we should use U+FFFF for our own WHAT currency
  450. # [17:04] <Dashiva> Use U+FFFD instead, easier to "fix" payments then
  451. # [17:06] <gsnedders_> Dashiva: But where's the fun in using a character you can send over XML?
  452. # [17:08] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Fun is sacrificed for profit
  453. # [17:08] <Philip`> I want no part in any regime that sacrifices fun
  454. # [17:10] <Dashiva> You can buy fun with the profits
  455. # [17:11] <Philip`> What's the exchange rate between money and happiness?
  456. # [17:12] <Dashiva> Depends on the currency
  457. # [17:12] <Dashiva> (of the happiness)
  458. # [17:13] <Philip`> Do it in Standard Happiness Units, and then I can easily convert it to any other scale
  459. # [17:15] <Dashiva> Well, if the person accepts happiness in Ham Sandwich Equivalents, the exchange rate is quite favorable
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  481. # [20:25] <gsnedders_> If you have an object in ECMAScript and iterate over it with for … in, what happens if you add stuff to the object?
  482. # [20:25] <Dashiva> You mean introduce a new property inside the loop?
  483. # [20:25] <gsnedders_> Yeah
  484. # [20:26] <gsnedders_> Does it iterate over a copy, or does it iterate over the variable, and hence loop infinitely?
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  486. # [20:26] <takkaria> most languages say that behaviour is undefined for that case I believe
  487. # [20:27] <gsnedders_> According to ECMAScript 5 it copies
  488. # [20:27] <Dashiva> Yeah, it's up to the implementation
  489. # [20:27] * Joins: ChrisWilson (n=cwilso@nat/microsoft/x-xfrlpfmaekdogewk)
  490. # [20:28] <Dashiva> ES3 says that deleted properties must not be visited, and added properties may be visited.
  491. # [20:29] <gsnedders_> "If new properties are added to the object being enumerated during enumeration, the newly added properties are guaranteed not to be visited in the active enumeration. "
  492. # [20:29] <gsnedders_> (ES5)
  493. # [20:30] <Dashiva> What if you add a property to the object's prototype?
  494. # [20:30] <Dashiva> And what if you change the prototype chain during enumeration?
  495. # [20:31] <gsnedders_> That has no effect
  496. # [20:31] <gsnedders_> You effectively copy the object at the start of evaluating the loop
  497. # [20:32] <inimino> AIUI the set of properties to be visited is fixed at the start and only deletions will affect it
  498. # [20:33] <Dashiva> So if you change the prototype, you'll end up visiting several properties that don't actually exist?
  499. # [20:35] <gsnedders_> Hmm, I'm not sure
  500. # [20:35] * gsnedders_ isn't an ES guy, damnit
  501. # [20:35] <inimino> I'm not sure about that
  502. # [20:35] <Dashiva> Anyone have a link to the latest ES5 draft?
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  504. # [20:36] <inimino> mutating the prototype would work the same as mutating the object
  505. # [20:36] <gsnedders_> Dashiva: http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/drafts/tc39-2009-025.pdf
  506. # [20:36] <gsnedders_> Dashiva: Page 85/86, section 12.6.4
  507. # [20:36] <gsnedders_> Dashiva: Search for "for-in"
  508. # [20:36] <Dashiva> Not mutating the prototype, but replacing the prototype object entirely by mutating the [[Prototype]]
  509. # [20:37] <inimino> Dashiva: that's not even allowed for in ES3
  510. # [20:37] <inimino> (and I don't think that changed in ES5 though I might be wrong)
  511. # [20:37] <Dashiva> But it's implicitly allowed in ES5
  512. # [20:37] <Dashiva> Not in the language itself, but it nods to implementations allowing it in extensions
  513. # [20:38] <inimino> oh, right, the catchall extension thing
  514. # [20:40] <Dashiva> Wow, nice change in the wording. :)
  515. # [20:41] <ttepasse> Uhm. Why are there ? as bullet points in the ES5 document?
  516. # [20:41] <Dashiva> ES3 says "the newly added properties are not guaranteed to be visited" and ES5 is "the newly added properties are guaranteed not to be visited"
  517. # [20:41] <Dashiva> Just moved the not :)
  518. # [20:43] <Dashiva> ttepasse: Where? I see bullets here
  519. # [20:45] <ttepasse> Every list: http://tepasse.org/tmp/i-heart-es5
  520. # [20:47] <inimino> heh
  521. # [20:48] <inimino> it looks fine in evince, probably some kind of font issue
  522. # [20:48] <ttepasse> A font issue in a pdf?
  523. # [20:49] <inimino> sure, PDFs can use fonts without embedding them
  524. # [20:49] <inimino> then if the renderer picks the wrong font, you get something like that
  525. # [20:50] <inimino> it's a shame that ES isn't specified in a first-class Web format
  526. # [20:50] <Dashiva> It's better this way than the wiki mess that preceded it :P
  527. # [20:51] <inimino> the wiki was a mess sure
  528. # [20:51] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@65-78-4-195.c3-0.ned-ubr1.sbo-ned.ma.cable.rcn.com)
  529. # [20:52] <inimino> but mostly because the process is opaque and most of the relevant information was hidden at any given time
  530. # [20:52] <inimino> like "oh yeah, that stuff on the wiki is totally obsolete, but we can't show the current status of anything because our process is broken"
  531. # [21:02] <gsnedders_> Oh yay. Nothing matches the spec at all for script@type
  532. # [21:05] <gsnedders_> Dashiva: You still have BTS access?
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The end :)