/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-08-04 / end

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  14. # [00:33] <annevk2> oh mattur is awesome
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  16. # [00:33] <annevk2> http://www.alistapart.com/comments/tohellwithwcag2/#10
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  18. # [00:37] <Dashiva> ... is that authentic?
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  41. # [01:42] <hober> hahahahaha.
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  47. # [02:28] <Lachy_> from the article: "The whole thing is supposed to be of help to deaf-blind people, who were never surveyed for their preferences, an action I recommended to WAI at a face-to-face meeting in 2003. Nor was any user testing carried out. (That’s all I can tell from published evidence, anyway. I sent e-mail inquiries to deaf-blind organizations in several countries asking if they’d been surveyed or had any opinions, with no response.)"
  48. # [02:29] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  49. # [02:30] <Lachy> that certainly helps to put the whole issue in perspectice, if they have a history of doing no research
  50. # [02:30] <Lachy> *perspective
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  69. # [04:02] <hober> indeed.
  70. # [04:02] <Dashiva> The poll appears
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  80. # [04:45] <Dashiva> Shelley's links are interesting, considering summary has been rejected DH5 (maybe even DH6) over and over and over...
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  83. # [04:56] <karlcow> Dashiva: You meant "The poll dancing appears."
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  87. # [05:06] <Dashiva> Also interesting that Roy thinks summary will be required by government when existing government advice actually discourages it...
  88. # [05:06] <Hixie> that government advice was cited by the wai as an example of why we had to keep summary=""
  89. # [05:06] <Hixie> i'd never seen it before then
  90. # [05:07] <Hixie> i think the wai may have assumed i don't read links they sent me
  91. # [05:07] <Hixie> especially long documents like that
  92. # [05:07] <Dashiva> Maybe someone should link it to Roy too, then
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  98. # [05:42] <karlcow> Dashiva: Do you have a list of where it is discouraged? and where it is encouraged? (government wise)
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  102. # [05:46] <Dashiva> karlcow: The one mentioned earlier is at http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(i) -- scroll one paragraph up
  103. # [05:50] <karlcow> http://www.coi.gov.uk/guidance.php?page=137
  104. # [05:51] <karlcow> recommends http://webaim.org/techniques/tables/data.php
  105. # [05:51] <karlcow> which says http://webaim.org/techniques/tables/data.php#summaries
  106. # [05:51] <karlcow> so UK seems to say follow wcag
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  108. # [05:52] <karlcow> from http://www.coi.gov.uk/guidance.php?page=188
  109. # [05:52] <Dashiva> It's a shame, that summary there would be useful for us poor normal folks too
  110. # [05:52] <karlcow> troll
  111. # [05:54] <Dashiva> Hah
  112. # [05:55] <Dashiva> That's one of the points that's been made so many times. Summaries often contain non-structural information that's useful to all users, not just disabled ones
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  114. # [05:56] <karlcow> French Gov recommends WCAG 2.0 un WCAG 1.0 http://www.references.modernisation.gouv.fr/rgaa-accessibilite
  115. # [05:56] <mpilgrim> everyone says to follow wcag
  116. # [05:56] <mpilgrim> wcag is wrong
  117. # [05:58] <Dashiva> It's easy to think that way if you're stuck in handicap parking analogies, I suppose. There you have to steal spaces from normal users.
  118. # [05:58] <Dashiva> But information can be made available for everyone, so let's not be mean.
  119. # [05:58] <Dashiva> And now, for my next trick, I will not be late for my flight. *poof* :)
  120. # [05:59] <mpilgrim> not only is it wrong, but the people who wrote it are unwilling to listen to criticism on how it is wrong
  121. # [06:00] <mpilgrim> this has been amply demonstrated for many years
  122. # [06:00] <mpilgrim> most recently (though by no means exclusively) by their refusal to respond to hixie's direct feedback
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  124. # [06:01] <karlcow> Canada too http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/clf2-nsi2/clfs-nnsi/clfs-nnsi-2-fra.asp
  125. # [06:01] <mpilgrim> where it is not wrong, it is merely inadequate
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  127. # [06:01] <mpilgrim> (c.f. their techniques document on using the image @alt attribute)
  128. # [06:01] <mpilgrim> (which cites a grand total of 2 examples, both trivial)
  129. # [06:02] <karlcow> mpilgrim: I was just trying to see if Dashiva's assertion was true or not "[23:01] <Dashiva> Also interesting that Roy thinks summary will be required by government when existing government advice actually discourages it..."
  130. # [06:02] <mpilgrim> major changes were made from wcag 1
  131. # [06:02] <mpilgrim> at the behest of major stakeholders like ibm
  132. # [06:02] <mpilgrim> e.g. pages requiring javascript are now a-ok
  133. # [06:03] <mpilgrim> (technically the priority level was dropped from 1 to 2 or some such nonsense. i forget how they phrased it.)
  134. # [06:03] <mpilgrim> it was EXTREMELY IMPORTANT for ibm that wcag 2 change this requirement
  135. # [06:03] <mpilgrim> since they have major "web" products like lotus workplace which are entirely javascript
  136. # [06:03] <karlcow> :) a big co influencing a spec… hmmm how surprising… that would be really the first time… never seen that in html 5. <sacarsm/>
  137. # [06:04] <mpilgrim> (i put "web" in scare quotes since there's nothing "webby" about them except that they happen to run in some browsers)
  138. # [06:04] <mpilgrim> my point is, that's the kind of "feedback" that went into wcag 2
  139. # [06:04] <mpilgrim> not anything lofty like john (and now sam (and now roy)) seem to assume
  140. # [06:04] <mpilgrim> research?
  141. # [06:04] <mpilgrim> user testing?
  142. # [06:04] <mpilgrim> seriously?
  143. # [06:04] <mpilgrim> don't make me laugh
  144. # [06:05] <karlcow> making you laugh… now, that would be vulgar :) I beg not.
  145. # [06:05] <mpilgrim> i guarantee you there was ZERO discussion of the summary attribute
  146. # [06:05] <mpilgrim> it was just a given
  147. # [06:05] <mpilgrim> somebody had a bad idea in like 1997 or 1998
  148. # [06:05] <mpilgrim> to add a summary attribute to tables
  149. # [06:06] <mpilgrim> they got it into the spec, in a wave of "let's make html more accessible" guilt
  150. # [06:06] <mpilgrim> from there, it got laundered through WAI and WCAG
  151. # [06:06] <mpilgrim> and now it's a highly polished turd being offered up and the be-all and end-all of accessibility techniques
  152. # [06:06] <mpilgrim> and no one is allowed to question it because it came from "experts"
  153. # [06:06] <mpilgrim> who *surely* must have researched it at least a little bit
  154. # [06:07] <mpilgrim> instead of just regurgitating the same bad advice for 10 years
  155. # [06:08] <mpilgrim> and people wonder why accessibility is such a clusterfuck
  156. # [06:09] <karlcow> and in clusterfuck, there is cluster. yeeehaaa
  157. # [06:09] <mpilgrim> ignore *!*@*.la-grange.net
  158. # [06:10] <karlcow> arf
  159. # [06:10] <mpilgrim> meanwhile, i'm shocked - SHOCKED! - to discover that roy fielding thinks that appeals to authority are a valid part of technical discourse
  160. # [06:11] <mpilgrim> truly shocked
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  162. # [06:13] <mpilgrim> "sampling is irrelevant within the context of HTML that is required by law or regulation to be accessible to sight-impaired users."
  163. # [06:13] <mpilgrim> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0136.html
  164. # [06:14] <mpilgrim> you can't argue with logic like that!
  165. # [06:24] <mpilgrim> heh
  166. # [06:24] <mpilgrim> re-reading "to hell with wcag 2" 3 years later is great fun
  167. # [06:25] <mpilgrim> i remember this complaint when it was made: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2006AprJun/0184.html
  168. # [06:26] <mpilgrim> w/followup here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2006AprJun/0397.html
  169. # [06:26] <karlcow> hmm a survey for accessibility http://archive.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/e-government/resources/eaccessibility/content.asp
  170. # [06:26] <mpilgrim> and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2006JulSep/0000.html
  171. # [06:27] <mpilgrim> i met her (well, was briefly introduced) once at csun
  172. # [06:27] <mpilgrim> remarkable woman
  173. # [06:27] <mpilgrim> can't remember her own phone number
  174. # [06:28] <mpilgrim> (or so i was told)
  175. # [06:28] <mpilgrim> but contributes to complex standards for years on end
  176. # [06:30] <mpilgrim> of course, wcag 2 is still incomprehensible to people with cognitive disabilities
  177. # [06:31] <mpilgrim> and still says nothing useful about how to make your own content accessible to such an audience
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  181. # [07:27] <Hixie> anyone got any suggested UI for how to indicate that the changes have been saved once you click "save" on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/edit-section.html?section=the-code-element ?
  182. # [07:30] <Hixie> hm, nevermind
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  184. # [07:42] <aboodman> Hixie: I can't be bothered to comment on the list, but I think that having a way to reach all browsing contexts in the same origin is probably also a security hole.
  185. # [07:42] <aboodman> even if we had background pages (which i like fwiw), we couldn't allow them to just reach all origins, there'd have to be a mechanism where pages opt inot being part of the set.
  186. # [07:43] <aboodman> sorry, I mean that we couldn't allow them to just reach all contexts in the same origin.
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  190. # [07:56] <mpilgrim> http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-html40-970917/struct/tables.html#h-12.1.1
  191. # [07:56] <mpilgrim> "The TABLE element contains all other elements that specify caption, rows, content, and formatting. Authors should use the title attribute to provide a summary of the table for non-visual user agents, covering its purpose and structure."
  192. # [07:56] <mpilgrim> "Note. A new attribute for the table summary is needed because the caption for visual users is generally insufficient. The title attribute is inappropriate because browsers render this as a "tool tip" which is limited to a single line of text. In some user agents, long lines are clipped."
  193. # [07:57] <mpilgrim> this is the sum total of the "research" done on the table summary attribute
  194. # [07:58] <mpilgrim> the summary attribute first appeared in the 1997-09-17 working draft of html 4
  195. # [07:58] <mpilgrim> it is not present in the previous draft from 1997-07-08 ( http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-html40-970708/ )
  196. # [07:59] <mpilgrim> i can find no discussion of it in the www-html mailing list archives for 1997
  197. # [07:59] <mpilgrim> or 1996, for that matter
  198. # [08:00] <mpilgrim> it was invented because browsers clipped tooltips
  199. # [08:01] <mpilgrim> if browsers had supported multiline tooltips, we never would have had a summary attribute
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  202. # [08:04] <hober> I'm completely shocked. Oh, wait.
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  206. # [08:12] <mpilgrim> quote of the day (from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/1997Jul/0066.html ): "Deprecating a tag doesn't make it obsolete right away, but clearly indicates that there is a 'better' (or at least, more consistent) way of doing things. Any deprecated elements in HTML4.0 won't be obsolete until HTML5.0, probably - and even then they may still be included."
  207. # [08:12] <mpilgrim> and the followup ( from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/1997Jul/0068.html ): "Nobody ever said that deprecated elements will no longer be supported by browser vendors. For sure I've never heard anybody part of the HTML WG say something like this. Quite on the contrary!"
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  211. # [08:25] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'm preparing validator.nu for a system update and reboot. I'll deal with microsyntaxes when it reboots. html5.validator.nu will follow if everything goes well.
  212. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: there are a couple of other minor fixes I checked in since the last v.nu deployment. Just schema tweaks, and tested
  213. # [08:29] <hsivonen> is the Kronos stuff something anyone can GET without cookies or HTTP auth?
  214. # [08:29] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-244-132.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  215. # [08:30] * hsivonen is annoyed at a WG Note from the WAI being treated as normative over REC track process
  216. # [08:33] * eighty4_ is now known as eighty4
  217. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> it's kind of surprising to know it is just a Note
  218. # [08:34] <hsivonen> annevk2: as far as I can tell, the XML Core WG didn't agree with i18n but added a well-formedness-neutral document conformance req that has no effect on processor behavior
  219. # [08:35] * Quits: mpilgrim (n=pilgrim@ip-64-139-15-210.dsl.sca.megapath.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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  221. # [08:37] <hsivonen> someone should make a scientific analysis of who actually practices the handling-people bible on public-html
  222. # [08:42] <annevk2> hsivonen, I mean that i18n agreed with the compromise
  223. # [08:42] <annevk2> meant*
  224. # [08:44] <hsivonen> annevk2: ok
  225. # [08:45] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: OK. I'll do a full redeployment after reboot
  226. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: while you're at it, quick question -
  227. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=631
  228. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> the current datatype-checking code doesn't make sure that the value of the iframe name attribute is more than one character
  229. # [08:46] <hsivonen> (I'll wait until DNS updates before I start the updatie process)
  230. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: but the spec says, "A valid browsing context name is any string with at least one
  231. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> character that does not start with a U+005F LOW LINE character."
  232. # [08:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: looks like a genuine bug
  233. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> OK, I'll make a patch for it
  234. # [08:47] <hsivonen> in the datatype lib that is
  235. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> yeah, i'll take a look
  236. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> one other open one that came up recently was this:
  237. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> Bug#: 591
  238. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> Product:
  239. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> Component:
  240. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> Status: NEW
  241. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> Resolution:
  242. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> Assigned To: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi>
  243. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> Hardware:
  244. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> oops
  245. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=591
  246. # [08:49] <annevk2> IETF process is apparently not very shiny: http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/?p=1346&cpage=1#comment-206483
  247. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: need to also report an error if an XML document that has a <meta charset='utf-8'/> is not actually encoded in UTF-8.
  248. # [08:50] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-67-180-85-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  249. # [08:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think what's needed is an extension to the ValidationContext API (a ValidationContext2 interface on the same object) that allows datatypes acquire the Locator object
  250. # [08:50] <hsivonen> then the Locator object should implement Locator2 which, IIRC, exposes the encoding
  251. # [08:51] <hsivonen> and then the parsers need to implement Locator2
  252. # [08:51] <hsivonen> and then datatyping that is sensitive to the encoding becomes possible
  253. # [08:51] <hsivonen> there's an open Jing bug about this
  254. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  255. # [08:52] <hsivonen> Foo2 interfaces suck, but they are the most compatible way of doing this without breaking the use of the datatype lib with old versions of Jing and MSV
  256. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> I see
  257. # [08:52] <hsivonen> Foo2 feels COMtaminated
  258. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> heh
  259. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so for now, maybe one thing worth considering is to add an Info message saying, "<meta charset="utf-8"/> found in XML document. Make sure your document is actually encoded in UTF-8."
  260. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> or a Warning
  261. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> can't add it in the assertions-checking code because of the problem of schematron only being able to emit errors
  262. # [08:56] * Joins: jacobolu_ (n=jacobolu@adsl-76-202-196-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  263. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> not if you want to keep the Java assertions code in sync with the assertions.sch file
  264. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hmm, maybe it's something I could add to the proposed warnings.sch
  265. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> oh
  266. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> can't do that either because I have no way of knowing at the point it the document is XML or text/html
  267. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> 困った
  268. # [08:59] <hsivonen> I guess I could simply implement what I said above on the V.nu branch of Jing and not wait for the trunk
  269. # [08:59] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  270. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, I looked at the build stuff in the jing trunk for generating the gcj binary
  271. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> I don't know who came up with that stuff, but it seems way overcomplicated
  272. # [09:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the Java build process for Jing trunk is complicated, too
  273. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> well, the gcj thing has the additional disadvantage of being broken
  274. # [09:03] <hsivonen> woohoo! Locator2 is in JDK 5
  275. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> well, that's a bright spot, at least
  276. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: anyway, that gcj build uses hard-coded path names all over the place, and the paths it's pointing to seem to have moved since the time the build setup was written
  277. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> the gcj/dist file
  278. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> It's just a shell script
  279. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> I don't know if that's some kind of standard RPM thing or what, but it's just absolutely arcane
  280. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> in contrast to the build setup for the debian trang package
  281. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> which just uses a simple Makefile
  282. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so, anyway, what I'm getting at is, I'm going to try to make a non-broken gcj build for jing
  283. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> and if I can get it to work, I'll send a patch and if it looks OK, maybe you can talk with James and George about committing it to the trunk in place of that thing that's there now
  284. # [09:09] <hsivonen> seems like a good plan
  285. # [09:11] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-67-180-85-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  286. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> OK
  287. # [09:12] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
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  291. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=114
  292. # [09:20] <annevk2> reading the June thread again on summary (the "PF Response") it strikes me that the PFWG never even emailed their comment to the HTML WG mailing list
  293. # [09:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: looks good, although I'd do s/character/character long/ in the message
  294. # [09:23] <annevk2> and there's stuff like http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Jul/0055.html o_O
  295. # [09:24] <annevk2> was there ever an official reply to the points Hixie made?
  296. # [09:30] * Quits: jacobolu_ (n=jacobolu@adsl-76-202-196-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  297. # [09:33] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@89.127.177.74)
  298. # [09:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I checked in the Locator2 stuff to the validator-nu branch of jing-trang and to the XML parser
  299. # [09:40] <hsivonen> I didn't add support to the HTML parser yet
  300. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: excellent
  301. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> I checked in the browsing-context-name fix, with your wording change
  302. # [09:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
  303. # [09:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I just made isContextDependent on AbstractDatatype non-final, too
  304. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I guess I should check out the validator-nu branch instead of the trunk
  305. # [09:48] * Quits: Rik`_ (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  306. # [09:51] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121.74.154.139)
  307. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so what's the effect of the isContextDependent change?
  308. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> I don't actually know what isContextDependent is for
  309. # [09:53] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@89.127.177.74) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  310. # [09:53] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-196-118.bredband.comhem.se)
  311. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> ah
  312. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> org.relaxng.datatype thing
  313. # [09:58] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@89.127.177.74)
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  318. # [10:31] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.LNX.4.62.0908040517440.6420@hixie.dreamhostps.com is your second reply to the same email.
  319. # [10:32] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  320. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> annevk2: not sure if it's worth noting in the diff doc, but the restriction in HTML5 that the target attribute and iframe name attribute must be at least one character is a change vs HTML4
  321. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> in HTML4, it's just CDATA, with no further restrictions stated in the spec
  322. # [10:33] <annevk2> we made a lot of those things more strict
  323. # [10:34] <annevk2> (and some more loose, e.g. id)
  324. # [10:35] <annevk2> e.g. accept-charset was CDATA in HTML4
  325. # [10:35] <annevk2> should I note it is now actually usefully checked?
  326. # [10:35] <annevk2> it seemed too much effort
  327. # [10:39] <Dashiva> Would anyone specify an empty name for any reason other than spec lawyering?
  328. # [10:39] <hsivonen> one would think someone in California had figured out how to protect disk against minor earthquakes
  329. # [10:39] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Multiple redundant data centers :P
  330. # [10:40] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I have deduntant disks, but these artificial earthquakes affect both disks at the same time
  331. # [10:40] <hsivonen> getting multilocation personal data centers is expensive
  332. # [10:40] <Dashiva> I don't recall the exact value, but it's something like at least 300 miles apart from each other
  333. # [10:42] <hsivonen> I can't think of any home-grown solutions that both absorb shocks properly and don't have extra vibrations afterwards
  334. # [10:43] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
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  336. # [10:44] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@89.127.177.75) (Client Quit)
  337. # [10:44] <hsivonen> https://twitter.com/roessler/statuses/3120872586
  338. # [10:45] <annevk2> that quote never gets old, does it? :)
  339. # [10:48] <Dashiva> There was an ALA article about "unwebbable" content a while ago. One of the examples [in a comment] was poetry, which "In fact, this is text that deliberately defies conventions and structure."
  340. # [10:49] <Dashiva> Doesn't that imply adding syntax for poetry is by definition an impossible task?
  341. # [10:49] <Philip`> You could use unconventional, unstructured syntax
  342. # [10:50] <Philip`> Or you could say your syntax defies defiance of conventions and structure
  343. # [10:50] <Dashiva> But when you put it into a spec, you're a sellout
  344. # [10:50] <Dashiva> Nobody will want your syntax anymore
  345. # [10:51] <hsivonen> is the original text of http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/a-new-way-forward/ archived somewhere?
  346. # [10:52] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@89.127.177.75)
  347. # [10:53] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: I have a copy on my HD
  348. # [10:53] <hsivonen> the "About the Author" bit is interesting
  349. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> annevk2: it's probably not worth the effort to list them individually, but maybe adding a general statement that "a number of attributes values now how further restrictions; for example, some values that were allowed to be empty in HTML4 are not allowed to be empty in HTML5, ..."
  350. # [10:57] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-wqvooabqcykwjwct)
  351. # [11:00] <zcorpan> i wonder if manu will get financial support from companies that depend on the internet
  352. # [11:01] <hsivonen> hmm. "Problem: No Way for Experts to Contribute in a Meaningful Way"
  353. # [11:02] <annevk2> interesting, the intent of accesskey in HTML5 was to take a single character
  354. # [11:02] <annevk2> it takes CDATA instead though to sucky DTDs
  355. # [11:03] <jgraham> I think that when you are making a serious document posting links to last week and (less so) the CSS Squirrel does not advance your credibility
  356. # [11:03] <jgraham> s/advance/help/
  357. # [11:03] <hsivonen> it seems to me that the problems manu mentions are either non-problems in my opinion or problems that already have solutions
  358. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> annevk2: I'm confused by " the intent of accesskey in HTML5 was to take a single character"
  359. # [11:06] <Philip`> s/5/4/?
  360. # [11:06] <annevk2> yeah, 4
  361. # [11:07] <annevk2> and also s/though/due/
  362. # [11:07] <jgraham> hsivonen: Without reading the documet in detail it seems to me to be a curious mix of process issues and specific technical issues that Manu feels strongly about
  363. # [11:16] <hsivonen> jgraham: there's also a certain 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' flavor to it (given certain assumed enmities)
  364. # [11:29] * Joins: adactio (n=adactio@host86-132-125-223.range86-132.btcentralplus.com)
  365. # [11:38] <jgraham> http://www.goer.org/Journal/2009/08/the_zen_of_structured_data.html
  366. # [11:40] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should get into the captioning threads and explain how things at Mozilla turned out the way they did
  367. # [11:41] * annevk42 would like info on captioning
  368. # [11:42] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
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  371. # [11:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: request for stats about equals sign in unquoted attribute values noted
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  375. # [12:17] <Dashiva> last week gets a small plus for "pigs headednessess"
  376. # [12:24] <Philip`> +0.1, perhaps?
  377. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so I realize now that v.nu schema and datatype library have have both a "positive integer" and "non-negative integer" datatype
  378. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> but the spec has only "non-negative integer"
  379. # [12:27] <Philip`> Does it have something like "non-zero non-negative integer"?
  380. # [12:27] <Philip`> (which is basically positive, for people who aren't sure what positive means)
  381. # [12:28] <Dashiva> Yeah, I remember that being wrangled out :)
  382. # [12:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: IIRC, the spec has places where a non-negative integer isn't allowed to be zzero
  383. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  384. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> I'll look more closely
  385. # [12:29] <hsivonen> IIRC, Hixie doesn't trust readers to understand what a positive integer is
  386. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> heh
  387. # [12:30] <Dashiva> "Roman era integer"
  388. # [12:31] <gsnedders|work> Dashiva: Can you mark "Roman era" up with a time element so I know what you mean?
  389. # [12:31] <jgraham> We should call them "optimistic integers"
  390. # [12:32] <Dashiva> gsnedders|work: It's before 1592 (or whenever it was)
  391. # [12:32] <Philip`> Do what proper mathematicians do, and use ℕ instead of fuzzy words like "integer", so there's no ambiguity
  392. # [12:32] <annevk2> MikeSmith, DOM attributes can be limited to only positive non-zero numbers :)
  393. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> annevk2: yeah, I saw that in the spec, but in this case was just referring to restrictions on content attributes.
  394. # [12:32] <annevk2> conformance on attributes seems to be phrased like "valid non-negative integer greater than zero"
  395. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> yeah
  396. # [12:33] <Dashiva> Makes me wonder why we bother with the non-negative part
  397. # [12:33] <zcorpan> Dashiva: use the comment box in the spec
  398. # [12:33] <gsnedders|work> Because you might have a negative integer greater than zero.
  399. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> annevk2: in the v.nu schema, it's actually a different datatype. which makes sense
  400. # [12:34] <zcorpan> -1 > 0
  401. # [12:34] <gsnedders|work> A really-complex number.
  402. # [12:34] <Dashiva> zcorpan: The barrier of entry is too high (I'd have to load the spec)
  403. # [12:34] <jgraham> zero is an integer, just not a positive integer
  404. # [12:34] <gsnedders|work> (Because complex numbers aren't enough)
  405. # [12:34] <zcorpan> Dashiva: load the multipage version
  406. # [12:34] <jgraham> zcorpan: You getting t-shirts made?
  407. # [12:34] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan: That means starting a web browser.
  408. # [12:34] <Dashiva> zcorpan: It still requires me to switch to a browser
  409. # [12:35] <zcorpan> Dashiva: use opera for irc, then you don't need to switch to another app
  410. # [12:35] <Dashiva> How about... no
  411. # [12:36] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: (Actually they are enough for most purposes, which is why we still use complex numbers instead of anything fancier)
  412. # [12:36] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan: But I'd still have to change tab!
  413. # [12:36] <jgraham> Dashiva: use curl
  414. # [12:36] <Dashiva> I'm using IRC
  415. # [12:36] * gsnedders|work notes he is somewhat amused that three of the people in this conversation are in one room
  416. # [12:36] <zcorpan> maybe we should have an irc bot for filing spec comments
  417. # [12:36] <Dashiva> One of you young'uns with this newfangled 'superhighway' stuff can submit for me
  418. # [12:36] * Dashiva waves cane
  419. # [12:37] <annevk2> MikeSmith, yeah, maybe file a bug?
  420. # [12:37] <Philip`> Dashiva: I could paste the spec in a /msg to you
  421. # [12:37] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: I'm in one room too
  422. # [12:37] <Dashiva> Philip`: How do I request external resources in /msg?
  423. # [12:37] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@89.127.177.75) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  424. # [12:37] <zcorpan> Hixie: please write an irc bot for filing spec comments so that people don't have to load the spec to file comments
  425. # [12:37] <annevk2> MikeSmith, I'd agree that having all the _actual_ datatypes together makes more sense than just having a subset and another set defined in prose
  426. # [12:37] <gsnedders|work> Dashiva: You pipe it, from curl.
  427. # [12:37] <Philip`> Dashiva: You don't, you just ask the person you're messaging to paste it to you
  428. # [12:38] <jgraham> hhttp
  429. # [12:38] <Dashiva> Besides, I don't like parsing javascript in my head unless I really have to
  430. # [12:38] <zcorpan> Dashiva: you mean you like it when you really have to?
  431. # [12:38] <Dashiva> Yeah
  432. # [12:39] <Dashiva> It makes me feel useful and accomplished
  433. # [12:39] * hsivonen reaches the thread about making unquoted attributes non-conforming
  434. # [12:39] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@89.127.177.75)
  435. # [12:39] <Dashiva> First year I interned at Opera we got a tiny meeting room for our office since there were no free offices
  436. # [12:40] <Dashiva> One day we come in and find a<!--b&&c-->d on the whiteboard and some scribbled comments about "Does this work?"
  437. # [12:40] <Dashiva> Tarquin had decided to outsource :)
  438. # [12:41] <gsnedders|work> Dashiva: Serves you right for interning at Opera!
  439. # [12:41] <gsnedders|work> Oh, wait…
  440. # [12:41] <Dashiva> It's actually valid JS. Pretty useless, but valid!
  441. # [12:42] <jgraham> Yeah it is
  442. # [12:42] <jgraham> Also it won't be treated as a comment
  443. # [12:43] <jgraham> but <!--b&&c-->d will be
  444. # [12:44] <jgraham> Oh wait, it will be treated as a
  445. # [12:44] <jgraham> as zcorpan just pointed out to me
  446. # [12:44] <Dashiva> Yah
  447. # [12:44] <jgraham> (I was confusing the behaviour of <!-- and -->(
  448. # [12:44] <Dashiva> Silly old bear
  449. # [12:44] <jgraham> s/(/)/
  450. # [12:45] <gsnedders|work> But he's such a lovable old bear, with his long greying hair!
  451. # [12:45] <Dashiva> You need to escape your (, jgraham
  452. # [12:45] <jgraham> Dashiva: Not in magic IRC regexp syntax I don't
  453. # [12:45] <zcorpan> ")I was confusing the behaviour of <!-- and -->("?
  454. # [12:46] <Dashiva> zcorpan: Magical IRC regexp matches from the end
  455. # [12:46] <jgraham> Magical irc regexp matches whatever makes the most sense
  456. # [12:46] <gsnedders|work> No, Magical IRC regexp does exactly what you intend it to.
  457. # [12:46] <Dashiva> Not even magical IRC regexp is that powerful
  458. # [12:47] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: Not quite otherwise s/// would work for anything
  459. # [12:47] <zcorpan> jgraham: see topic
  460. # [12:47] <gsnedders|work> That doesn't work, because it throws E_EMPTY
  461. # [12:47] <gsnedders|work> (for the first argument)
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  464. # [12:56] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Not in any proper regexp implementation, i.e. Perl's
  465. # [12:56] <gsnedders|work> You mean there are other proper regexp implementations?
  466. # [12:56] <Dashiva> Javascript's!
  467. # [12:59] <jgraham> Javascript does indeed allow empty regexps
  468. # [13:02] <Dashiva> (But not as a literal, since it's treated as a comment)
  469. # [13:05] <Philip`> It just matches all the distinct substrings with length zero, which seems like a perfectly natural and sensible thing to do
  470. # [13:05] <jgraham> (Unless you express it as /(?:)/ which is semantically an empty regexp if not syntactically)
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  544. # [13:29] * gsnedders|work finds, "I will buy lunch for whomever fixes floats so that they work properly." — Hixie, Bugzilla, 2001-04-29
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  573. # [13:30] <gsnedders|work> (Status: NEW)
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  603. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thinking about the microsyntaxes scraping.. the fact that getting those messages current depends stopping and restarting v.nu seems to really cry out for actual API to grab those in real time, and then some kind of simple DB instead
  604. # [13:39] <MikeSmith> the technical limitations of wikis seem like a big deficiency in this case
  605. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> or maybe there's some wiki that's capable of storing content as names and values in a db
  606. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> while still providing a wiki interface
  607. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> what happened to Google Base?
  608. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> or maybe there are other things like that around now
  609. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> or DabbleDB
  610. # [13:45] <annevk2> I believe that if someone writes the software we'll take it
  611. # [13:45] <annevk2> but note that having it on the wiki has advantages; e.g. spam control, accounts are sorted out, etc.
  612. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> annevk2: I understand all that. But I'd really think there'd be an simple online DB with those same features and almost the same ease of use as a wiki, but with a real rest API for retrieving data from it.
  613. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> I guess to me the lack of the network API is the real issue
  614. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> I guess it would be possible to have some kind of thing that scrapes the wiki in real time and exposes an API
  615. # [13:49] <annevk2> that's an interesting idea
  616. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> but that would really seem suboptimal to me at least
  617. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> though I guess in this case it's a very small amount of data and the scraping would be very quick
  618. # [13:49] <annevk2> maybe, but wiki's have solved a lot of problems
  619. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> no argument from me there
  620. # [13:50] <annevk2> accounts, accountability, easy editing, etc.
  621. # [13:50] <annevk2> cronjob that scrapes and exposes a friendly API sounds good to me
  622. # [13:50] <annevk2> (you'd cache the scraped data)
  623. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> annevk2: yeah, I guess I'll write one unless somebody else beats me to it
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  625. # [13:56] <jgraham> Surely putting a wiki-like interface on a key-value document store would not be hard
  626. # [13:57] <jgraham> In fact something like the admin interface to couch-db is already quite close to what you want I think
  627. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> I guess dabbleDB and Google Base may be too
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  630. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> the other great thing about wikis is having the change history available, and the record of accountability (as annevk2 pointed out)
  631. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> so whatever other mechanism should provide that at least
  632. # [14:00] <gsnedders|work> git! hg!
  633. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> the tools will (en)s(l)ave use
  634. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> *us
  635. # [14:02] <Philip`> Surely you could make a user-editable database with two lines of Ruby/Rails code?
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  637. # [14:03] <Philip`> (or Python/Django or whatever)
  638. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> Philip`: Surely somebody else must have done that already for me so that I don't have to.
  639. # [14:04] <jgraham> Which two lines?
  640. # [14:04] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: import and print
  641. # [14:04] <jgraham> those are statements, not lines
  642. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> anyway, it's not just having the DB, it's having all the Wiki UI stuff on top of it
  643. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> change history, etc.
  644. # [14:05] <MikeSmith> and Ogg Theora videos.
  645. # [14:06] <jgraham> Change history seems like the big one
  646. # [14:06] <Philip`> jgraham: The ones in the tutorial screencasts where you make a user-editable database with two lines of code using the user-editable database scaffolding which conveniently happens to have been written already for precisely this purpose, I guess
  647. # [14:06] <jgraham> Because I guess most k-v stores are designed to be efficient rather than to keep records
  648. # [14:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'd rather deal with rel registry before optimizing microsyntax stuff
  649. # [14:08] * hsivonen is still waiting for DNS for validator.nu to update
  650. # [14:08] <hsivonen> I guess I should defer the system update until tomorrow when DNS must have updated
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  652. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> jgraham: you know, for me at least, it really is all about the API. I'd think whatever Wiki could easily have some kind of standard markup for indicating a string on the page that's a key, and whatever chunk of text is its associated value
  653. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> and then the Wiki's own backend could expose an API for that
  654. # [14:12] <gsnedders|work> We should use RDF for that.
  655. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> hmm, maybe I'll shut up for now
  656. # [14:12] <jgraham> MikeSmith: The reason I was thinking about couchdb is that the API is really the main thing
  657. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> what's the backend on the whatwg wiki?
  658. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> jgraham: OK
  659. # [14:12] <jgraham> The store just serves json
  660. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> I see
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  662. # [14:13] <jgraham> The problem is I don't know how easy it is to add versioning to that
  663. # [14:13] <hsivonen> for the rel registry, it could be a GETtable text/plain resource with one registered token on each line and LF line breaks
  664. # [14:13] <jgraham> (well I guess it is rather easy to do it manually by adding a version key to each document)
  665. # [14:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: what kind of versioning?
  666. # [14:14] <hsivonen> I was thinking of an append-only registry
  667. # [14:14] <jgraham> hsivonen: MikeSmith seems to want wiki-like history which imp[lies storing multiple versions (or diffs or something)
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  678. # [14:20] <virtuelv> WTF!? https://twitter.com/WHATWG/status/3122997127
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  687. # [14:21] <jgraham> virtuelv: http://www.whatwg.org/#updater
  688. # [14:22] <jgraham> (look down the page)
  689. # [14:22] <virtuelv> ah
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  691. # [14:26] <annevk2> I wonder what happens if I say that everyone can update the twitter account from http://www.whatwg.org/#updater from @whatwg
  692. # [14:27] <annevk2> Guess it's better to wait for Hixie to be around since I think he's the only one with the login details
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  694. # [14:29] <annevk2> oh well
  695. # [14:36] <hsivonen> I love how Kyle Weems complains about attacking people (in http://www.cssquirrel.com/2009/07/09/comic-update-manners-after-the-xhtmlacolypse/) and then goes on to publish a comic like http://www.cssquirrel.com/comic/?comic=30
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  697. # [14:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: that doesn't really seem like a personal attack
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  699. # [14:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: but I guess the vicious online comic is the equivalent of a nasty e-mail comment that ends with a smiley :)
  700. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> I personally just wish that Kyle would into his comics put more depictions of real violence, with some nudity thrown in now and then
  701. # [14:41] <MikeSmith> or even some sex. I think it was Einstein who said "there are few things in the world that are funnier than depictions of cartoon characters having sex."
  702. # [14:45] <hsivonen> there were already references to "snogging"
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  704. # [14:50] <gsnedders|work> OK, where's the drugs and rock and roll?
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  706. # [14:52] <jgraham> Couchdb already has revision tracking it seems
  707. # [14:52] <Creap> hi. a pure decorational image or illustration would not fit to be marked up within a figure, right?
  708. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> kyle gets points for the violence in that latest one, at least
  709. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hmm, there no longer seems to be "percent" datatype referenced by the schema
  710. # [14:55] * MikeSmith investigates
  711. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> hmm, I guess that's been gone for a long while
  712. # [14:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I can't remember what it was used for
  713. # [14:56] * MikeSmith does Shift-v jjjd
  714. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> Creap: yeah
  715. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> jgraham: so something based on CouchDB would seem like a good way to go.
  716. # [14:57] <Creap> 'yeah' as in.. figure is not for decorational images?
  717. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> we could build something to meet our own needs, and then productize it
  718. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> Creap: right, not for decoration
  719. # [14:58] * riven` is now known as riven
  720. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> figure, in my estimation, is for something that you or somebody else might possibly want to reference by its title
  721. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> see Figure 1.2 at <url>
  722. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> jgraham: time to turn a profit off the work on tools associated with html5
  723. # [15:03] <hsivonen> oh. now I'm no longer the only one allegedly having personal preferences against RDFa
  724. # [15:04] <jgraham> hsivonen: Pointer?
  725. # [15:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://www.w3.org/mid/4A72916B.5020407@digitalbazaar.com
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  790. # [15:38] <Philip`> jgraham: I think I read somewhere that CouchDB happily throws away old revisions when you're compacting the database, which doesn't sound good when you want a reliable version control system
  791. # [15:42] <jgraham> Philip`: Ah. Well I guess you would have to build a seperate version control layer then :(
  792. # [15:44] <jgraham> (or you could just use something totally different like a hg backend that stored json files assuming that querying wasn't a priority)
  793. # [15:52] <pablof> there doesn't seem to be that much interest for that other from toy wikis apparently
  794. # [15:52] <pablof> http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COUCHDB-69
  795. # [15:52] <pablof> *other than
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  803. # [16:13] <nate_> hey guys, just out of curiosity, what's with the open-access Twitter account?
  804. # [16:13] <gsnedders|work> IIRC, someone thought it was a good idea.
  805. # [16:14] <nate_> hm
  806. # [16:14] <gsnedders|work> And in general it has been
  807. # [16:14] <nate_> well, it looks like you're getting a lot of off-color comments
  808. # [16:14] <nate_> or just generally dumb stuff like "HXTML"
  809. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> nate_: we are sending those, not getting them
  810. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> you can join the fun too
  811. # [16:15] <nate_> oh, hah
  812. # [16:15] <nate_> well, okay
  813. # [16:15] <nate_> I guess it wasn't clear to a lot of people (myself included :-P) that it was a joke
  814. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> nate_: seriously, the only person with access to turn it off is asleep at the moment
  815. # [16:15] <gsnedders|work> nate_: Also, be warned: don't take everything in here seriously.
  816. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> nate_: my joking about it is the joke
  817. # [16:15] <gsnedders|work> nate_: Especially not that asshole who goes by the name of Mike
  818. # [16:16] <miketaylr> i quite enjoyed this tweet: The HXTML 2.0 spec has been finalized with only one tag which is <text>.
  819. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> nate_: that potential for it being abused is of course not a joke
  820. # [16:16] <nate_> gsnedders|work: IMO, anyone with a name like "Mike" cannot be trusted
  821. # [16:16] <gsnedders|work> Nah, we need to pave the cowpaths and go for <plaintext>
  822. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> nate_: or at least not a funny joke
  823. # [16:16] <gsnedders|work> That's nice and simple to parse.
  824. # [16:16] <miketaylr> lol
  825. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> or at least not an intentionally funny joke
  826. # [16:17] <gsnedders|work> (Everything from <plaintext> to EOF is just a single text node)
  827. # [16:17] <gsnedders|work> (It makes parsing simple.)
  828. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> it is kind of an unintentionally funny joke
  829. # [16:17] <gsnedders|work> (It was, of course, marked obsolete in the first ever draft spec for HTML, and still exists in HTML 5)
  830. # [16:17] <gsnedders|work> (In the parsing rules, at least)
  831. # [16:18] <gsnedders|work> I mean, sometimes I just get the urge, and just have to tweet about my cat.
  832. # [16:18] <gsnedders|work> She's called BetterAstrophy.
  833. # [16:18] <annevk2> <plaintext> was the solution to media types before you could do Content-Type:text/plain
  834. # [16:18] <annevk2> in retrospect I think it would have been better
  835. # [16:25] <beowulf> i go on holiday for a month and come back to find even longer threads on @summary and twitter running amok
  836. # [16:25] <beowulf> is there no end to the depths you all will sink!
  837. # [16:26] <nate_> ...no?
  838. # [16:26] <Lachy> http://twitter.com/WHATWG/status/3124785323 :-D
  839. # [16:26] <nate_> I dunno, it seems like a fun experiment
  840. # [16:26] <nate_> how deep *can* we sink??
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  842. # [16:27] <nate_> woohoo!
  843. # [16:29] * jgraham wonders how many of the people abusing the status updater are libertarians
  844. # [16:30] <gsnedders|work> I was under the impression, from what I read on the internet, that everything wrong is the fault of the liberals.
  845. # [16:31] * Joins: taf2_ (n=taf2@98.218.77.43)
  846. # [16:31] <jgraham> Isn't there a difference between a liberal and a libertarian?
  847. # [16:32] <gsnedders|work> Yes, there is.
  848. # [16:32] <gsnedders|work> What I read on the internet was it was the liberals fault, and that liberterians are what makes this country so great.
  849. # [16:33] <beowulf> i abused the twitter status, i do not feature on the liberal side of the political compass though
  850. # [16:33] <beowulf> i say abused, i think it's important that people buy viagra
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  852. # [16:34] <gsnedders|work> Are we going to have to get "I abused @WHATWG" t-shirts
  853. # [16:34] <miketaylr> I'll take a size M
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  856. # [16:36] <Lachy> beowulf, did you really tweet about viagra on @whatwg?
  857. # [16:36] <gsnedders|work> Someone did.
  858. # [16:36] * gsnedders|work glares
  859. # [16:36] <miketaylr> the twitter status is about to hit critical mass a la reply-all 'stop hitting reply-all'
  860. # [16:37] <svl> The follower count is going into freefall
  861. # [16:38] <Lachy> does anyone know why there is a sudden increase in the spam levels on it?
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  863. # [16:38] <svl> It'll have been posted on some message board somewhere.
  864. # [16:39] <gsnedders|work> Lachy: Because once people started spamming it it will have become self-evident it was open too
  865. # [16:39] <beowulf> Lachy: annevk2 mentioned on here that it's open to anyone, which appears in the logs
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  867. # [16:40] <gsnedders|work> beowulf: It's been mentioned many times before
  868. # [16:40] <beowulf> gsnedders|work: well then i've no idea why it took off today
  869. # [16:41] <gsnedders|work> I think the correct solution is that Hixie should be awake 24/7 to police it.
  870. # [16:41] <beowulf> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090804#l-691
  871. # [16:41] <Lachy> yeah, the number of followers has dropped by a few hundred already
  872. # [16:41] <Lachy> a few minutes ago, it was over 1600. Now it's 1288
  873. # [16:43] <jgraham> I love the way that people think it was an oversight rather than a decision
  874. # [16:44] <gsnedders|work> We probably should have made the barrier to entry a bit higher, because it was almost inevitable this would happen sometime
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  876. # [16:45] <alexmace> #fail
  877. # [16:45] * svl loves that the bandaid 'fix' actually works.
  878. # [16:46] <jim_c> gsnedders|work: What's the story with the Twitter account?
  879. # [16:46] <gsnedders|work> svl: The "ok stop it"?
  880. # [16:46] * gsnedders|work wonders why people assume he knows
  881. # [16:47] <gsnedders|work> jim_c: A while ago there was a decision made to make the Twitter account open, knowing it could potentially be used for spam, but thinking being open would all-in-all be more useful
  882. # [16:47] <Lachy> svl, what's the bandaid fix?
  883. # [16:47] <jim_c> gsnedders|work: I see. That assumes that people who use the internet act like adults. Unfortunately, that's not how it is.
  884. # [16:47] * Philip` wonders how long Hixie will keep believing that anonymous free-for-all editing is a good idea
  885. # [16:47] <gsnedders|work> I don't think anyone expected to get a large number of spam tweets all at once, just once or twice occasionally
  886. # [16:48] <svl> Ah, nothing. I missed the difference between a link to #updater and triggering that manually.
  887. # [16:48] <svl> Thought with six minutes of silence that a change had been made to the homepage to make this just a tiny bit harder
  888. # [16:49] <Lachy> my tweet didn't get posted :-(
  889. # [16:49] * Joins: takoratta (n=takoratt@p4071-ipbf6301marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  890. # [16:49] <gsnedders|work> Lachy: Did you check the checkbox? :P
  891. # [16:49] <Lachy> I don't see a checkbox
  892. # [16:49] <gsnedders|work> There's a checkbox that says "I have something useful to say" you have to check
  893. # [16:50] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-201-53.bredband.comhem.se)
  894. # [16:50] <alexmace> gsnedders|work: Not anymore there isn't
  895. # [16:50] <Lachy> If I disable styles, it shows up
  896. # [16:51] <gsnedders|work> Reloading there still is
  897. # [16:51] <alexmace> Seems naive at best to have an open form that updates a twitter account
  898. # [16:51] <gsnedders|work> Oh, only from http://www.whatwg.org/#updater
  899. # [16:51] <gsnedders|work> So it's only required if you have JS disabled
  900. # [16:52] <gavin_> alexmace: obscurity was a suitable countermeasure, until now
  901. # [16:53] <alexmace> gavin_: That isn't a countermeasure
  902. # [16:53] * Parts: jim_c (n=correia@c-98-217-142-52.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
  903. # [16:53] <gavin_> there was no problem in practice
  904. # [16:53] <beowulf> no kittens were harmed
  905. # [16:54] <Lachy> might be useful to have some kind of moderation on the system
  906. # [16:54] <alexmace> Hey, stay in denial if you lie
  907. # [16:54] <alexmace> like
  908. # [16:54] <gavin_> I'm not in denial...
  909. # [16:54] <gavin_> there is a problem now, sure
  910. # [16:54] * jgraham decides not to point out that at some level obscurity is the root of all security
  911. # [16:54] <Philip`> alexmace: It's only naive if you consider a short-lived period of spam on a Twitter account to be a real problem
  912. # [16:54] <alexmace> no exposure of a problem != no problem
  913. # [16:54] <gavin_> your definition of problem is strange
  914. # [16:54] <gsnedders|work> alexmace: Being _open_ was a feature. It wasn't a problem.
  915. # [16:55] <alexmace> Being open isn't a problem
  916. # [16:55] <gavin_> is it a problem that a piano might fall on my head today?
  917. # [16:55] <alexmace> being careless is
  918. # [16:55] <gsnedders|work> OK, so it got abused one or twice a month… That was considered acceptable for being open.
  919. # [16:55] <alexmace> Anyway, it's disabled somewhere. Even with the box checked it isn't updating anymore
  920. # [16:56] <gsnedders|work> alexmace: It's not careless. I think everyone around when it was decided for it to be open knew the risk.
  921. # [16:56] <Philip`> Does Twitter have some limit on post frequency/quantity?
  922. # [16:56] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  923. # [16:56] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: Through the API yes.
  924. # [16:56] <gavin_> Philip`: I don't think you can reasonably argue that it isn't a problem :)
  925. # [16:56] <gavin_> it may not be a problem worth "fixing"...
  926. # [16:57] <gsnedders|work> alexmace: How do you propose to keep it open while making it impossible to spam?
  927. # [16:59] <alexmace> I think a better question would be "what is the purpose of the account?" and go from there rather than trying to band aid it
  928. # [16:59] <Philip`> gavin_: Well, it's a problem whose sole effect is to reduce the value of the WHATWG Twitter feed, which seems like a pretty limited problem to me :-)
  929. # [16:59] <Lachy> it doesn't seem like a huge problem. After only an hours worth of spam, it seems to have died down now. Seems people get over their stupidity quicker than I thought.
  930. # [16:59] <Philip`> ...although I suppose it also has the effect of irritating a thousand people
  931. # [16:59] <gsnedders|work> alexmace: The purpose of the account is provide updates relating to anything relating to HTML 5.
  932. # [17:00] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Why does it need to be open? (I've never noticed anyone use it for serious purposes, other than the automatic commit notifications)
  933. # [17:00] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-201-53.bredband.comhem.se)
  934. # [17:00] <Lachy> anyone know how many followers it had before the spam started?
  935. # [17:00] <Lachy> I wonder if we just set a record for the most unsubscribed in the shortest amount of time
  936. # [17:00] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: There's been things like HTML 5 getting landed in mozilla-central, HTML 5 outliner, and other things posted to it. I don't watch it that closely.
  937. # [17:01] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: But yeah, it is mainly commits
  938. # [17:03] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  939. # [17:05] * Parts: nate_ (n=nate@68.83.183.192)
  940. # [17:06] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-201-53.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  941. # [17:06] <Philip`> Lachy: Try looking in search engine caches
  942. # [17:07] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  943. # [17:08] <Philip`> I think Hixie should publish the web server password on the WHATWG front page, so anyone can go in and fix the Twitter script even while he's asleep
  944. # [17:09] <Lachy> from google cache 8 hours ago, 1,315 followers
  945. # [17:09] <Lachy> so we only lost about 50
  946. # [17:10] <Philip`> But you said a few minutes ago "a few minutes ago, it was over 1600"
  947. # [17:10] <gsnedders|work> Lies, damned lies and statistics!
  948. # [17:10] <beowulf> http://twittercounter.com/whatwg/all
  949. # [17:11] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-imvjkvykcvyuafdg)
  950. # [17:11] * Quits: archtech (n=sv@83.228.56.37)
  951. # [17:12] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@71-218-60-163.hlrn.qwest.net) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  952. # [17:12] <beowulf> i hit manual update on that, which changed the results to show a loss of 61
  953. # [17:13] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/session)
  954. # [17:15] <alexmace> gsnedders|work: I'd look at something like hashtags instead
  955. # [17:15] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@adsl-76-202-196-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  956. # [17:15] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-201-53.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  957. # [17:15] <alexmace> At least then you can see the accounts that are posting the info rather than being completely anonymous as it is now
  958. # [17:20] * Joins: krijn (i=8d5d17ee@gateway/web/freenode/x-urjehbqwuwbabhxf)
  959. # [17:23] <Lachy> Philip`, It looks like I remembered wrongly. That must have been the number of tweets, not the number of followers
  960. # [17:23] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  961. # [17:24] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  962. # [17:29] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.118.248.251.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  963. # [17:30] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  964. # [17:31] * Joins: leeky (n=leeky@62.121.18.221)
  965. # [17:31] * Quits: abii (n=macbook@cm27.delta30.maxonline.com.sg)
  966. # [17:32] * Joins: MadAtWork2 (n=not_@83.139.194.2)
  967. # [17:32] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("Leaving")
  968. # [17:32] <MadAtWork2> what the hell is going on with twitter?
  969. # [17:32] <leeky> Afternoon! Anyone here able to remove that rather silly "post to @whatwg on Twitter" form on your home page?
  970. # [17:32] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com)
  971. # [17:33] * Joins: Samer (n=sziadeh@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  972. # [17:34] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@71-218-60-163.hlrn.qwest.net)
  973. # [17:35] * krijn thinks we need the gatekeeper for that :)
  974. # [17:36] * Joins: ap_ (n=ap@nat/apple/x-llacaswgmtlrfmgc)
  975. # [17:36] <MadAtWork2> Can I set up a bot here that says "what the hell is going on with twitter" every minute or so?
  976. # [17:37] <Philip`> That would achieve nothing
  977. # [17:37] <Philip`> Also, it seems kind of obvious what's going on with Twitter
  978. # [17:37] <jgraham> It seems like Twitter is more or less working like normal
  979. # [17:37] <Dashiva> Oh no, UTF-32 is now the only acceptable encoding
  980. # [17:37] <MadAtWork2> I was being facetious, and I don't really know what was going on.
  981. # [17:38] * gsnedders|work sighs
  982. # [17:38] <gsnedders|work> Teenagers…
  983. # [17:39] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  984. # [17:39] <gsnedders|work> Oh well, at least there's a Monty Python reference
  985. # [17:40] <Lachy> we just need to increase the signal to noise ratio on twitter. For every spam tweet someone posts, we should immediately post 2 more useful tweets
  986. # [17:40] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  987. # [17:40] <MadAtWork2> I mean, beside getting a lot of stupid spam from people I don't care about, what's the point of that?
  988. # [17:40] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@71-218-60-163.hlrn.qwest.net) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  989. # [17:41] <Dashiva> Lachy: Can they be the same useful tweet?
  990. # [17:41] <Lachy> no
  991. # [17:41] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@71-218-60-163.hlrn.qwest.net)
  992. # [17:42] <gsnedders|work> Dashiva: Suffix a number, then they aren't the same
  993. # [17:43] <Lachy> "Trapped in twitter factory, send help!"
  994. # [17:43] <Lachy> :-D
  995. # [17:43] <MadAtWork2> Seriously, what's the point of opening access to that account?
  996. # [17:43] * Quits: takoratta (n=takoratt@p4071-ipbf6301marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  997. # [17:44] <Lachy> MadAtWork2, as a matter of policy, everything in the whatwg has open access
  998. # [17:44] <Lachy> just like the blog, wiki and mailing list
  999. # [17:44] <jgraham> MadAtWork2: The point was to allow anyone to twitter on the subject of HTML 5. For a long while that has worked acceptably well. Right now people are not so interested in HTML5
  1000. # [17:45] * Parts: krijn (i=8d5d17ee@gateway/web/freenode/x-urjehbqwuwbabhxf)
  1001. # [17:45] <MadAtWork2> Hmm.
  1002. # [17:45] <MadAtWork2> Can't we have 2 resources? an open one and an official announcement one?
  1003. # [17:45] <Lachy> it might be worth closing public access until a more moderated system can be developed
  1004. # [17:45] <MadAtWork2> aka one I can safely ignore and one I can follow?
  1005. # [17:45] <alexmace> Seems some have confused open access with anonymous access
  1006. # [17:46] * Quits: leeky (n=leeky@62.121.18.221) ("Leaving...")
  1007. # [17:46] <Lachy> maybe we should tie it to the blog somehow. That seems to work. Spammers regularly try to post rubbish articles, but a few of us sensible people have moderator access
  1008. # [17:47] <Dashiva> It's not like we have much more control on the IRC channel :)
  1009. # [17:47] <gsnedders|work> Lachy: Or spec annotation
  1010. # [17:47] <jgraham> alexmace: It is far from clear that the access is anonymous
  1011. # [17:47] <Lachy> yeah
  1012. # [17:47] <jgraham> Hixie has all the logs
  1013. # [17:47] <Lachy> jgraham, Hixie only gets IP addresses, and that doesn't really help for a distributed attack like this appears tob e
  1014. # [17:47] <Lachy> *to be
  1015. # [17:48] <alexmace> Good luck matching IP addresses to people then
  1016. # [17:48] <MadAtWork2> Mostly because I can use an http proxy with relative ease...
  1017. # [17:48] <jgraham> Lachy: Sure but it's hardly anonymous.
  1018. # [17:48] <alexmace> It is effectively anonymous
  1019. # [17:49] <jgraham> Only if people take additional steps to protect their anonmnymity. It's no more or less anonymous than wikipedia for example
  1020. # [17:49] <jgraham> And the lack of anomnimity there has had interesting ramifications in the past
  1021. # [17:50] <MadAtWork2> It's not about that, it's about what gets on the "front page".
  1022. # [17:50] <MadAtWork2> Wikipedia has an article and a history page, but the history page is hardly what people checks first.
  1023. # [17:50] <alexmace> Continue going on about other issues if you like
  1024. # [17:50] <MadAtWork2> The noise is kept at bay.
  1025. # [17:50] <Samer> lol hi
  1026. # [17:50] <Samer> are we talking about the twitter issue
  1027. # [17:50] <alexmace> Just ignore the problem
  1028. # [17:50] <Samer> xD
  1029. # [17:50] <alexmace> Then it'll go away
  1030. # [17:50] <Samer> i'm reading the tweets
  1031. # [17:50] <Samer> they're hillarious
  1032. # [17:50] <MadAtWork2> In this case the amount of sensible information that gets through is nil.
  1033. # [17:51] <alexmace> Yup
  1034. # [17:51] <alexmace> MadAtWork2: It's "open" though
  1035. # [17:51] <MadAtWork2> Tweeting AS WHATWG and tweeting TO WHATWG are two different things.
  1036. # [17:51] <takkaria> ok, the experiment has failed, it's not that exciting really
  1037. # [17:51] * Joins: cgriego (n=cgriego@rrcs-24-173-70-117.sw.biz.rr.com)
  1038. # [17:51] <Lachy> jgraham, you try finding out who owns a given IP address! In most countries, it will probalby take a good reason and a court order (or be a member of the RIAA lobby group)
  1039. # [17:51] * Quits: aschmitz (n=andy@adsl-70-131-33-182.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) ("Leaving")
  1040. # [17:52] <Samer> maybe if you leave it for long enough it'll die
  1041. # [17:52] <MadAtWork2> If you want something open, make a page that collects posts to @WHATWG from different accounts.
  1042. # [17:52] <Samer> we like things complicated
  1043. # [17:52] <Lachy> at most, all we can do is block an IP address from posting, but that wouldn't do much for the one-time hit and run attacks like this
  1044. # [17:52] <Samer> :)
  1045. # [17:52] <jgraham> Lachy: Which is a good thing but hardly the same as being anonymous
  1046. # [17:52] <MadAtWork2> Or even go as far as making a new twitter account reposting everything sent to @WHATWG
  1047. # [17:53] <Samer> have you tried changing the twitter password
  1048. # [17:53] <jgraham> and more general information is trivial e.g. "that person posting from the white house made a racist comment"
  1049. # [17:53] <Lachy> jgraham, then there's also people who go thorugh anonymising VPNs, or are using public terminals
  1050. # [17:53] <MadAtWork2> jgraham: which translates to "Obama hates america" for Fox News.
  1051. # [17:53] <MadAtWork2> Someone apparently DOES benefit.
  1052. # [17:54] <jgraham> MadAtWork2: ?
  1053. # [17:54] <jgraham> I think you are agreeing with me
  1054. # [17:54] <Samer> hhow did this start btw
  1055. # [17:54] <MadAtWork2> In a way.
  1056. # [17:54] <MadAtWork2> Speaking of html5 tho.
  1057. # [17:54] * Parts: eric_carlson (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-imvjkvykcvyuafdg)
  1058. # [17:54] <MadAtWork2> We have header and footer, what is the middle thing?
  1059. # [17:54] <MadAtWork2> Article? Div?
  1060. # [17:54] <MadAtWork2> Nothing?
  1061. # [17:55] <jgraham> MadAtWork2: That's an oversimplification but <section> or <article> depending on what you mean
  1062. # [17:56] <MadAtWork2> jgraham: I'm starting a new webapp, and I'm creating a login page, I have a header I have a footer, and I have a login box, I'm trying to see what would uncle html5 suggest to use in this case.
  1063. # [17:56] <jgraham> Lachy: I know that you can take some measures to cover your tracks, but in practice many people don't bother and find that actions that they took believing that they would be free of consequences are not actually as anonymous and as free of consequences as they had assumed
  1064. # [17:56] * Joins: archtech (n=sv@83.228.56.37)
  1065. # [17:57] <jgraham> MadAtWork2: Does it have a header? Probably <section> if it does
  1066. # [17:57] <jgraham> Otherwise maybe <div>. Depends why you want it
  1067. # [17:58] <MadAtWork2> The login box has a header but it's a legend for a fieldset.
  1068. # [17:58] <Lachy> jgraham, O
  1069. # [17:58] <Lachy> oops
  1070. # [17:58] <MadAtWork2> so I have page header fieldset with login stuff and page footer.
  1071. # [17:58] <MadAtWork2> I am trying to understand if I am to wrap the fieldset around a div, a section or what.
  1072. # [17:59] <MadAtWork2> I'm starving for real world examples of html5. :/
  1073. # [17:59] <Samer> i think it stopped
  1074. # [17:59] <jgraham> MadAtWork2: It sounds like it might be <section> and maybe you could move the fieldset label to a <h1> or so
  1075. # [18:00] <Lachy> I'm not disputing the fact that most people don't have total anonynimity on the net in all cases, but for all practical purposes in the case of the whatwg status updater, they do, because we have absolutely no way of finding out who's who just from an IP address
  1076. # [18:00] <MadAtWork2> jgraham: Hm, you may be right.
  1077. # [18:01] <MadAtWork2> Still I dream of the day when these questions will be easily answered.
  1078. # [18:01] <alexmace> Samer: Probably run out of API requests for the hour
  1079. # [18:01] <Samer> oh lol
  1080. # [18:01] <Samer> why is the update box on the front page?
  1081. # [18:02] <alexmace> Which obviously makes it entirely useless for posting useful information
  1082. # [18:02] <alexmace> "openness"
  1083. # [18:02] <Samer> i mean instead of logging to whatwg.org just go to twitter.com to update
  1084. # [18:02] <alexmace> Any discussion of finding people by IP address is just fiddling while Rome burns
  1085. # [18:03] <Samer> at least people aren't going crazy on the wiki :)
  1086. # [18:04] <MadAtWork2> Again, a bot that reposts what is posted to @WHATWG would solve everything.
  1087. # [18:04] <MadAtWork2> Open and accountable.
  1088. # [18:04] <MadAtWork2> It also may or may not improve your manliness.
  1089. # [18:05] <svl> ooh, we just _gained_ a follower. Saw it go from 1200 to 1201
  1090. # [18:05] * Quits: taf2_ (n=taf2@98.218.77.43)
  1091. # [18:06] <alexmace> MadAtWork2: Sounds like a good solution to me though
  1092. # [18:06] <alexmace> Not that anyone seems interested
  1093. # [18:06] <MadAtWork2> I should tweet it.
  1094. # [18:06] <Philip`> It's not like anyone can actually do anything
  1095. # [18:13] <jgraham> Philip`: We could try DOSing the WHATWG server
  1096. # [18:13] <alexmace> So who can do something about it?
  1097. # [18:14] <jgraham> alexmace: Hixie
  1098. # [18:14] <alexmace> and that's it?
  1099. # [18:15] <gavin_> this is what happens when your server administration isn't Open!
  1100. # [18:16] <annevk2> it was a nice experiment while it lasted
  1101. # [18:16] <annevk2> the blog got abused way more quickly
  1102. # [18:18] <MadAtWork2> haha
  1103. # [18:18] * Parts: cgriego (n=cgriego@rrcs-24-173-70-117.sw.biz.rr.com)
  1104. # [18:18] <jgraham> annevk2: It might still work if you just made it possible for a few people to shut the account down if it was being abused at a given time
  1105. # [18:18] <jgraham> Otherwise you would need to have a moderation system
  1106. # [18:18] <Dashiva> Like, say, anyone on IRC
  1107. # [18:20] <annevk2> jgraham, if we give a few people login details we can simply delete tweets
  1108. # [18:20] <Philip`> Make a bot that posts each prospective Tweet into IRC, and if nobody says "twitbot: shut up" within a minute then it gets posted to Twitter
  1109. # [18:20] <annevk2> that'd work too
  1110. # [18:20] <Dashiva> Philip`: "Shut up, you twit"
  1111. # [18:21] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.41.241) (Remote closed the connection)
  1112. # [18:22] <Philip`> Got to be careful not to make a mistake like http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8176194.stm when talking about Twitter
  1113. # [18:23] <alexmace> Posting it to IRC wouldn't work
  1114. # [18:23] <alexmace> How would the bot know which you were talking about
  1115. # [18:23] <alexmace> if they're coming in so quickly that the API usage is being used up every hour you'd just get a torrent coming in
  1116. # [18:23] <gavin_> hmm, does the bbc typically publish "swear words"?
  1117. # [18:24] <gavin_> would they print "fuck"?
  1118. # [18:24] <Philip`> alexmace: It would know you're talking about anything sent in the past minute
  1119. # [18:24] <alexmace> Philip`: whatever, it's a poor solution
  1120. # [18:25] <Philip`> gavin_: Judging by that article, they only print it in direct quotes
  1121. # [18:25] <Philip`> gavin_: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7481715.stm
  1122. # [18:25] <MadAtWork2> Philip`: I'm going to call humbug on that.
  1123. # [18:26] <MadAtWork2> Seriously.
  1124. # [18:27] <gavin_> Philip`: interesting
  1125. # [18:28] <Philip`> gavin_: Not really relevant but a search points at section 2 of http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/delivery/edguidance.shtml
  1126. # [18:28] <gavin_> interesting set of examples
  1127. # [18:29] <Philip`> Oh, section 3 is more fun
  1128. # [18:29] <gavin_> I would have thought "Jesus fucking Christ" is redundant, given the inclusion of "fuck"
  1129. # [18:29] <GPHemsley> Are you guys aware that @WHATWG is being spammed?
  1130. # [18:29] <alexmace> \o/
  1131. # [18:29] <GPHemsley> Hmm... guessing yes
  1132. # [18:30] <GPHemsley> Let me know when you fix it, so I can re-follow
  1133. # [18:34] <alexmace> GPHemsley: Only one man can fix it
  1134. # [18:34] <GPHemsley> Oh, Hixie's MIA?
  1135. # [18:35] <alexmace> Mmm, I love the smell of a dichotomy just before home time
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  1142. # [18:45] <annevk2> GPHemsley, just asleep
  1143. # [18:45] <GPHemsley> annevk2: Well, who knows where he might be while he's sleeping. ;)
  1144. # [18:46] <GPHemsley> (In dream world, to clarify.)
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  1147. # [18:55] <annevk2> nice, DanC calls out bogus WAI tactics
  1148. # [18:55] <annevk2> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Aug/0006.html
  1149. # [18:55] <annevk2> would make a good addition to markp's post
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  1163. # [19:57] * webben wishes the discussion of "WCAG" on public-html would clearly (and properly) distinguish between W3C Recommendations and WAI Notes.
  1164. # [19:59] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-ipitrffidnihcnzh)
  1165. # [20:07] <annevk2> maybe say so?
  1166. # [20:13] <webben> annevk2: I've just mentioned it to Sam on the other channel though I suspect he may be afk.
  1167. # [20:14] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  1168. # [20:18] <virtuelv> someone mind removing that open whatwg-poster?
  1169. # [20:18] <virtuelv> I'm not particularily fond of having my twitter frontpage filled with expletives
  1170. # [20:18] <virtuelv> this is the internet. You _can't_ have nice things
  1171. # [20:18] <virtuelv> right now, it's spewing racist expletives, evn
  1172. # [20:19] <virtuelv> Hixie: ↑↑↑↑
  1173. # [20:20] <hober> :(
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  1175. # [20:21] <annevk2> worked fine for a couple of years
  1176. # [20:21] <annevk2> :/
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  1178. # [20:24] <virtuelv> annevk2: it worked, because no-one noticed
  1179. # [20:24] <virtuelv> in other words, it worked by pure chance
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  1181. # [20:25] <virtuelv> either way, I'm unfollowing it for now
  1182. # [20:26] <factoryjoe> wow, there's some bad stuff on twitter.com/whatwg
  1183. # [20:26] <virtuelv> factoryjoe: noted already
  1184. # [20:26] <gavin_> maybe that should be put in the topic
  1185. # [20:26] <annevk2> that'd be logical
  1186. # [20:26] <factoryjoe> sorry, thought it might be redundant to point that out
  1187. # [20:27] <annevk2> no worries
  1188. # [20:27] <factoryjoe> anonymity + internet = greater fuckwad
  1189. # [20:27] <factoryjoe> is that an experiment?
  1190. # [20:28] <annevk2> we had this on for a couple of years
  1191. # [20:28] <factoryjoe> ah, i see it's been going on for awhile.
  1192. # [20:28] <factoryjoe> the twitter thing?
  1193. # [20:28] <annevk2> YEAH
  1194. # [20:28] <annevk2> oops
  1195. # [20:29] <annevk2> has been on the frontpage pretty much since we got a twitter account
  1196. # [20:30] <factoryjoe> oh
  1197. # [20:30] <factoryjoe> is there a desire to ... uh ... stop it from happening?
  1198. # [20:30] <factoryjoe> or is the idea just to let it play out?
  1199. # [20:31] <virtuelv> my bet is that twitter would suspend the account long before it plays out
  1200. # [20:31] <annevk2> currently only Hixie can fix it
  1201. # [20:31] <factoryjoe> true
  1202. # [20:31] <factoryjoe> good point
  1203. # [20:31] <virtuelv> doesn't even he have a phone these days?
  1204. # [20:31] <factoryjoe> it's probably against the TOS to let anyone post to your account
  1205. # [20:32] <ezyang> Hm. Does anyone have access to the src code of the script?
  1206. # [20:32] <ezyang> I'd imagine that has the credentials.
  1207. # [20:34] <Hixie> sigh, i tried putting up a message on the form saying that people should be nice, but that didn't work
  1208. # [20:34] <Hixie> i guess we'll have to password-protect it
  1209. # [20:35] <Hixie> that's so sad
  1210. # [20:35] <annevk2> can we easily delete all the crap?
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  1212. # [20:35] <factoryjoe> Hixie: the content is pretty offensive... and it'll be associated with the account out of context
  1213. # [20:35] <factoryjoe> it is too bad
  1214. # [20:35] <factoryjoe> how long was it there w/o abuse?
  1215. # [20:35] <virtuelv> Hixie: I see you never passed the "Greater Internet Fuckwad theory" exam?
  1216. # [20:36] <virtuelv> factoryjoe: two years?
  1217. # [20:36] <factoryjoe> amazing
  1218. # [20:37] <Hixie> factoryjoe: years at least
  1219. # [20:38] <Hixie> several people knew the old password, fwiw, but i guess y'all forgot what it was :-)
  1220. # [20:38] <Hixie> anyway i changed the password
  1221. # [20:38] <Hixie> so it's no longer "WHATWG" which is what it used to be :-P
  1222. # [20:38] <Hixie> since i figure if people are going to abuse the form, eventually one will try to guess the password too
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  1225. # [20:39] <virtuelv> Hixie: you might also want to delete the tweets?
  1226. # [20:39] <Hixie> yeah yeah, i'll get to it
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  1229. # [20:40] <smedero> fyi, there's no easy way on twitter to mass delete tweets from my memory but somewhat had written a greasemonkey script to do it.
  1230. # [20:40] <smedero> s/somewhat/someone/
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  1232. # [20:43] <Hixie> aaah
  1233. # [20:43] <Hixie> don't delete tweets that aren't offensive
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  1236. # [20:45] <Hixie> jgraham: your /msgs to me are coming up blank -- did you get my message to you?
  1237. # [20:46] * Joins: mpilgrim__ (n=mark@216.239.45.19)
  1238. # [20:46] <jgraham> Hixie: No, try resending. Seems to be a client problem that may have sorted itself out
  1239. # [20:46] * mpilgrim is now known as Guest44142
  1240. # [20:46] <Hixie> k
  1241. # [20:47] * mpilgrim__ is now known as mpilgrim
  1242. # [20:47] <Hixie> mpilgrim: i'm in slice btw
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  1244. # [20:48] <factoryjoe> also, hixie, you may want to tweet once more that "the experiment is over. we'll be cleaning up this account momentarily."
  1245. # [20:49] <Hixie> i don't think additional tweets are going to make anyone particularly happier
  1246. # [20:49] <Hixie> people will just realise things are better when they don't get spammed
  1247. # [20:49] <miketaylr> agreed.
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  1249. # [20:50] <factoryjoe> well, ok. some acknowledge might help people feel better that no more spam is forthcoming
  1250. # [20:51] <Hixie> i expect that no more spam being forthcoming will make people feel better than spam telling them that no more spam is forthcoming
  1251. # [20:51] <Hixie> it's like getting confirmation messages from spamming lists when you unsubscribe -- just irritates more
  1252. # [20:52] <gavin_> if the confirmation is credible, it actually helps, I think
  1253. # [20:52] <factoryjoe> i'm with gavin_, but it's up to you
  1254. # [20:52] <gavin_> (rarely the case with email spam, granted - think twitterspam is different))
  1255. # [20:52] <factoryjoe> FWIW, i unfollowed
  1256. # [20:53] <miketaylr> a compromise might be to state something in the profile bio..."now, with 100% less spam!"
  1257. # [20:53] <factoryjoe> if you admit the issue and reassure people, they might come back, but that might not be important to you
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  1259. # [20:53] <factoryjoe> anywho
  1260. # [20:54] <annevk2> i agree that we should say something
  1261. # [20:54] <annevk2> anyone a proposal?
  1262. # [20:56] <annevk2> "Apologies. Letting everyone update @WHATWG from whatwg.org worked for years, but after today we have taken it offline."
  1263. # [20:56] <annevk2> ?
  1264. # [20:57] <Hixie> let's not say anything for now
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  1268. # [20:57] <Hixie> if it's still not abused in a few hours we'll post something
  1269. # [20:59] <jgraham> othermaciej: I have heard that the kind of structural information that blind users like would also be helpful to people with some cognitive disabilities although I don't know if that is really true
  1270. # [21:00] <othermaciej> jgraham: I don't personally know the details of what is useful to different handicap groups - I would expect there is a lot of overlap, perhaps not 100%
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  1276. # [21:04] <jgraham> othermaciej: Indeed. I was just making the point that your example of information that may not be needed by sighted users may, in fact, be needed by some sighted users
  1277. # [21:04] * Parts: tclineks (n=tclineks@adsl-75-39-130-99.dsl.tpkaks.sbcglobal.net)
  1278. # [21:05] <othermaciej> jgraham: I think I qualified it enough that I feel ok with the way I stated it
  1279. # [21:05] <othermaciej> "Describing the structure of the table, if it is easy to grasp visually, may not be useful to everyone."
  1280. # [21:05] <jgraham> othermaciej: Fair enough. It wasn't really a critisism
  1281. # [21:05] <othermaciej> If it's not easy to grasp visually, then it's quite likely that cognitively disabled users (or indeed everyone) could use the info
  1282. # [21:06] <othermaciej> and even after that qualification, I said "may"
  1283. # [21:06] <othermaciej> cause it's probably a judgment call at that point
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  1285. # [21:06] <jgraham> I am just somewhat wary of the disabled===blind trap
  1286. # [21:07] <jgraham> In any case it seems like a rather sensible proposal but not too far from what is in the spec today
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  1294. # [21:22] <jwalden> annevk42: fyi, I have some feedback on Opera's implementation of the CSS 3 background-size property in this post: https://developer.mozilla.org/web-tech/2009/08/04/background-images-no-longer-restricted-to-original-size-explore-the-space-with-background-size/
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  1298. # [21:33] <Lachy> I wonder what Shelley's objection is to othermaciej's compromise
  1299. # [21:34] <othermaciej> she elaborated at some more length in a later message
  1300. # [21:34] <Lachy> oh, haven't received that yet
  1301. # [21:35] <jgraham> jwalden: Interesting
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  1306. # [21:39] <jwalden> I also have, if I remember right, perhaps forty or fifty reftests of background-size and related properties that I should eventually bundle up somehow and post on www-style
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  1308. # [21:41] <jwalden> all of them in http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/reftests/backgrounds/ from http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/88e95d638b35 if anyone really wants them *right now*, as opposed to when I get around to zipping them up and making them presentable
  1309. # [21:42] <jwalden> (i.e. s/-moz-// mostly, also pulling out a few that are engine-specific)
  1310. # [21:45] <takkaria> I'm reading a book called Bad Science at the moment, all about evidence-based methology and such
  1311. # [21:45] <takkaria> really quite a contrast to public-html
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  1314. # [21:54] <Dashiva> takkaria: Does it cover good cop / bad cop bargaining? :)
  1315. # [21:55] <takkaria> sadly not
  1316. # [21:55] <jgraham> takkaria: I read one ofthe author's columns in the Guardian recently and it didn't seem that great
  1317. # [21:55] <takkaria> jgraham: I think that to people who are trained in actual scienific disciplines, it's not that interesting
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  1319. # [21:56] <jgraham> It was on the subject of organic food and made reasonable criticisms of a Soil Association press release that claimed that a report saying organic food provided no health benefits was bogus
  1320. # [21:57] <takkaria> ah, yeah, the book's like that but more in-depth and will a lot of depth on general scientific methology
  1321. # [21:57] <jgraham> But seemed to go futrther and claim that organic food in general has no benefits
  1322. # [21:58] * ap_ is now known as ap
  1323. # [21:58] <jgraham> (rather than possibly just not having the one benefit that the press release was focusing on)
  1324. # [21:59] <jgraham> (which made me think that he probably had some preconcieved idea that organic food is pure hype)
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  1326. # [22:00] <jgraham> (which is the problem with putting ourself on a high pedestal and just being critical of other people; you leave yourself open to the same criticisms)
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  1329. # [22:07] <Hixie> ok well i think we got rid of the particularly nasty twitters
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  1332. # [22:15] <Hixie> ok i posted on the whatwg twitter feed
  1333. # [22:15] <Hixie> if anyone wants to know the password, let me know
  1334. # [22:15] <Hixie> (it's not the same as the whatwg account password, for those who know that)
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  1336. # [22:17] <Hixie> oh and for those of you who do have the account password -- if anyone abuses it somehow again, just change the password and let me know
  1337. # [22:17] <Hixie> and if you want to know the account password, let me know, i can give that to you too
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  1341. # [22:30] <takkaria> jgraham: hm, I didn't read him as saying it had no benefits, just that if it does have benefits, they are not health benefits
  1342. # [22:30] <takkaria> jgraham: and he chided the Soil Assoc. a bit for not making that clearer
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  1363. # [23:23] <othermaciej> jgraham: well, I thought it was sensible, but I'm starting to lose faith in my ability to get buy-in on a compromise
  1364. # [23:27] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-201-53.bredband.comhem.se)
  1365. # [23:28] <Lachy> othermaciej, if we go with your proposal, then I'll have to concede a lot more than it seems others are even remotely willing, which isn't really fair.
  1366. # [23:29] <othermaciej> Lachy: if people on the other side are not willing to concede anything, then I assume they will not support my proposal at all
  1367. # [23:29] <othermaciej> I'm not going to push it if it doesn't have significant buy-in from both sides
  1368. # [23:30] <othermaciej> like I said, I don't want to ask either side to concede 100% of their position in exchange for nothing
  1369. # [23:31] <Lachy> well, it seems with your proposal, I'll have to concede 99% of what I want. The only remaining thing being the validator warning for using it.
  1370. # [23:32] * Quits: Samer (n=sziadeh@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  1371. # [23:32] * Quits: takoratta (n=takoratt@p2086-ipbf3102marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  1372. # [23:32] <othermaciej> the validator warning, plus strong advice to use text that is visible in all media when appropriate, which is likely the vast majority of the time
  1373. # [23:32] <Lachy> I can live with that, though obviously I'm not thrilled about it.
  1374. # [23:32] <Lachy> oh, yeah, that too. Make that 95%
  1375. # [23:33] <othermaciej> (plus hopefully support to change WCAG2 to be more aligned with this point of view)
  1376. # [23:33] <Lachy> even if we do accept this now, I'd still like to leave it open for modification in the future based on new evidence, as always
  1377. # [23:34] <othermaciej> My rough estimation is that my proposal is probably right on the edge of what people on either side might remotely be willing to accept
  1378. # [23:34] * Joins: Samer (n=sziadeh@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  1379. # [23:35] <Lachy> btw, I'm currently working on a way that will hopefully give us new evidence to work with
  1380. # [23:35] <othermaciej> so if it doesn't work, we probably just have to vote to decide between people's actual more extreme positions
  1381. # [23:35] <Lachy> and if my expectations of the results are met, then it should debunk a lot of the claims about how the new proposals don't "offer the same functionality" as summary=""
  1382. # [23:36] <Hixie> so... redirects in websocket
  1383. # [23:36] * Hixie ponders how to make that work
  1384. # [23:36] <Lachy> Hixie, are you changing the subject?
  1385. # [23:36] <Hixie> no, i haven't been worrying about summary at all today :-)
  1386. # [23:37] <Hixie> please feel free to continue talking about summary :-)
  1387. # [23:37] * Hixie is just thinking out loud because the next e-mail on his pile is about websockets
  1388. # [23:37] <Lachy> no, that's all I've been talking about for ages.
  1389. # [23:37] <Lachy> about *summary
  1390. # [23:53] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-244-132.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  1391. # [23:53] <Lachy> Hixie, in the interest of getting the publication of a Working Draft for the heartbeat requirement out of the way and decoupling the resolution of the summary issue from that process, would you be willing to agree to a short term compromise solution, leaving the group to continue debating the details of othermaciej's proposal?
  1392. # [23:53] <Hixie> what's the compromise?
  1393. # [23:54] <Hixie> (i've not yet read the 50+ e-mails on the topic)
  1394. # [23:54] <Lachy> that's ok, I haven't emailed this to the group yet
  1395. # [23:55] <othermaciej> Lachy: I am curious what your study is
  1396. # [23:55] <othermaciej> Hixie: I made a proposal for what I think is a compromise (not sure if that's what Lachy has in mind)
  1397. # [23:55] <Lachy> specifically, remove summary from the Obsolete but Conforming features list, and add a big note to The table Element section stating that there has been a proposal to include the summary attribute as conforming, but the issue is not yet decided
  1398. # [23:55] <othermaciej> Ah, I see he means something different
  1399. # [23:55] <Hixie> remove summary="" altogether? i'm certainly very happy to remove summary altogether, yes
  1400. # [23:55] <Lachy> so that avoid's John's controversial changes of making summary fully conforming now
  1401. # [23:56] <Hixie> that's what i've been askin for forever
  1402. # [23:56] <Lachy> yeah, but the difference is the class="XXX" note in the table section that makes it clear the issue is still unresolved
  1403. # [23:56] <othermaciej> Lachy: you might want to see if John Foliot would buy into that as removing his objection to publishing a WD
  1404. # [23:56] <Hixie> we already have an XXX
  1405. # [23:57] * Quits: annevk2 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  1406. # [23:57] <Hixie> i'm pretty sure john would object completely to having summary="" be obsolete
  1407. # [23:57] <Lachy> yeah, but John is objecting to that since summary is still listed as obsolete, despite the issue still being unresolved
  1408. # [23:57] <Hixie> since wai requires use of summary="" in one of their non-normative techniques notes
  1409. # [23:57] <Hixie> i thought that's what you were proposing too, making it obsolete completely, not even conforming
  1410. # [23:57] <Lachy> I'm not proposing to make it fully obsolete, nor fully conforming. Just a note to say that its in limbo right now
  1411. # [23:58] <othermaciej> Lachy is proposing removing all mention of it other than an XXX note that the issue is open
  1412. # [23:58] <othermaciej> (for the next WD only)
  1413. # [23:58] <Lachy> othermaciej, yes, exactly
  1414. # [23:58] <Hixie> i don't really care what the next WD says at all
  1415. # [23:58] <Hixie> the WDs are obsolete before we publish them
  1416. # [23:58] <othermaciej> me neither
  1417. # [23:58] <Lachy> nor do I. I just want the WD published and out of the way so we can meet the heartbeat requirement and move on
  1418. # [23:59] <Lachy> it seems rather silly to hold up publication based on an orthogonal issue
  1419. # [23:59] <Hixie> we can just publish your doc as a fpwd to satisfy the process, if process is what you care about
  1420. # Session Close: Wed Aug 05 00:00:00 2009

The end :)