/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-08-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 06 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  27. # [01:17] <Hixie> we get some very odd bug reports through the whatwg form
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  29. # [01:23] <Lachy> yes, we know. They were mentioned here earlier
  30. # [01:23] <Lachy> you may have to raise the bar a little for posting through that form to help prevent spam
  31. # [01:23] <Lachy> like requiring people to be logged into the spec annotation system
  32. # [01:23] <Lachy> or forwarding them to bugzilla to complete the bug report
  33. # [01:25] <Lachy> Yay, I hope this now means we can move onto discussing something else for a while
  34. # [01:25] <Dashiva> Yeah, like @alt
  35. # [01:25] <hober> Lachy: exactly the thought I had
  36. # [01:25] <Lachy> no
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  38. # [01:26] <Lachy> I expect we'll get a discussion about longdesc again shortly
  39. # [01:27] <hober> longdesc="" is so bad it almost makes summary="" look useful
  40. # [01:28] <Dashiva> Want to make a bet, Lachy?
  41. # [01:28] <Dashiva> First thread with at least 10 posts, alt or longdesc
  42. # [01:29] <Lachy> Dashiva, as long as you promise not to cheat by sending 9 responses to the first mention of alt :-)
  43. # [01:29] <Dashiva> My reputation would only harm the cause if I did, so no
  44. # [01:30] <Hixie> Lachy: the spec annotation system requires them to have sent feedback already, so that somewhat defeats the point of getting people who haven't sent feedback
  45. # [01:30] <Hixie> Lachy: and i can't redirect them to bugzilla if they haven't got an account yet, which seems likely
  46. # [01:30] <Lachy> Hixie, is the summary attribute explicitly excluded from the table elements' Content Attributes?
  47. # [01:31] <Hixie> yeah, because if we include it it'd have to say something about being discouraged, and we're avoiding saying anything bad about summary="" lest the attribute or its friends be offended
  48. # [01:32] <Lachy> what about letting logged in users have their bugs filed immediately, and others held for moderation (perhaps posted into IRC by a new IRC bot first, and allowing anyone in here to moderate it
  49. # [01:32] <othermaciej> I think you could list it and just link to the section about it at the bottom
  50. # [01:32] <othermaciej> but I don't think it's a big deal either way (at least to me)
  51. # [01:32] <Hixie> Lachy: write me a moderation system and i'll get right on that
  52. # [01:33] <Lachy> but that requires me to do work
  53. # [01:33] <Lachy> but I'll think about it. I'd like to learn how to write an IRC bot one day, and this could give me a good excuse
  54. # [01:34] <Hixie> if you have somewhere to host it, mozbot is a great bot infrastructure that lets you write new modules easily.
  55. # [01:34] <Hixie> and i don't say that just cos i wrote it :-P
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  57. # [01:35] <Lachy> what's it written in?
  58. # [01:35] <Lachy> or what does it require the modules to be written in?
  59. # [01:35] <Hixie> perl and perl
  60. # [01:35] <Lachy> damn.
  61. # [01:36] <Lachy> I will find somewhere to host it
  62. # [01:37] <Lachy> I wonder if my other web host, A Small Orange, will allow me to run IRC bot from there?
  63. # [01:37] <Lachy> IIRC, Dreamhost doesn't allow that
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  66. # [01:40] <Philip`> Do it as a mIRC script
  67. # [01:40] <Lachy> does that mean I would have to be running mIRC?
  68. # [01:42] <Lachy> Hixie, I'm wondering if it might be useful mentioning in the note about summary other kinds of disabilities other than blindness that may affect someone's ability to easily comprehend the table, and for whom a visible summary would help
  69. # [01:43] <Lachy> like people with cognitive disabilities
  70. # [01:44] <Lachy> I'm not sure what to say exactly. It might be better to get advice about this from someone who knows more about different types of disabilities than I do
  71. # [01:44] <Hixie> i'm not touching that text again
  72. # [01:46] <Hixie> sigh, i really feel we're short-changing AT users here
  73. # [01:46] <Hixie> and for such stupid reasons
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  75. # [01:50] <beowulf> i agree
  76. # [01:58] <GPHemsley> Hixie, Lachy: Why not look into the MozBot (or whatever the software's name is)?
  77. # [01:58] <GPHemsley> oh
  78. # [01:58] <GPHemsley> should've finished reading
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  81. # [02:05] <Dashiva> wtf: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7224
  82. # [02:05] <Hixie> ok gotta go
  83. # [02:05] <Hixie> bbl
  84. # [02:06] <beowulf> Lachy: you can run bots on dreamhost ps, i run a supybot from one
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  93. # [02:36] <Lachy> beowulf, http://wiki.dreamhost.com/KB_/_Unix_/_Cron_Jobs_and_Persistent_Processes#What_is_your_persistent_.28background.29_process_policy.3F
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  95. # [02:37] <Lachy> beowulf, I don't pay for dreamhost ps, shared hosting is sufficient for my needs
  96. # [02:39] <othermaciej> I need to write test cases for my <nav> implementation now
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  191. # [08:49] <hsivonen> sigh. Larry poked in-band versioning again.
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  195. # [09:04] <GPHemsley> How come image width/height only allows integer values?
  196. # [09:05] <Dashiva> Because pixels like to pretend they're atomic
  197. # [09:07] <GPHemsley> heh
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  201. # [09:09] <annevk2> Hixie, iput.files needs to be readonly
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  203. # [09:11] <annevk2> Hixie, also, do we really want input.files != input.files?
  204. # [09:11] <zcorpan_> interesting how many on twitter are amazed by the audio&canvas demo
  205. # [09:11] <zcorpan_> i guess we should have made such a demo when opera 9.0 was released
  206. # [09:12] <GPHemsley> it's a good sign, at least
  207. # [09:17] <hsivonen> do I understand correctly that JF wants the spec to prescribe a UI string for validators?
  208. # [09:18] * annevk2 wonders if and if, how, MS Paint is accessible
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  210. # [09:21] <zcorpan_> for a painting app, you probably want to activate the platform's move-cursor-with-keyboard accessibility feature
  211. # [09:23] <zcorpan_> but to be honest, i don't know why anyone would want to paint with the keyboard
  212. # [09:24] <zcorpan_> maybe hardware will solve the painting thing by moving towards touch screens
  213. # [09:25] <Hixie> annevk2: a live input.files seems like it'd get confusing, i thought we were avoiding live apis where we made new ones up
  214. # [09:30] <annevk2> I'd imagine that once the user selects a bunch of files the UA creates a FileList object
  215. # [09:30] <annevk2> then everytime input.files is accessed that is returned until the user makes a new selection
  216. # [09:31] <annevk2> at which point a new object is created
  217. # [09:32] * hsivonen wonders what the normal "Hardware ECC recovered" rates for disks are
  218. # [09:32] * hsivonen also wonders if a ReadyNAS prefers to do RAID reads from disk one
  219. # [09:32] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  220. # [09:32] <hsivonen> I see radically different error recovery counts on the two disks
  221. # [09:35] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@89.127.177.74) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  222. # [09:36] <Hixie> annevk2: i guess we could do that
  223. # [09:37] <Hixie> annevk2: file a bug or send mail or something?
  224. # [09:37] <hsivonen> https://twitter.com/myakura/statuses/3157898371
  225. # [09:38] <Hixie> let them know that the mailing list is the right place to send feedback...
  226. # [09:41] <annevk2> Hixie, also, DataTransfer.files?
  227. # [09:42] <hsivonen> looks like techcrunch missed that Firefox 3.5 is no longer in beta...
  228. # [09:45] <Hixie> annevk2: i'm going down the list, one at a time
  229. # [09:45] <annevk2> techcrunch also called H.264 proprietary
  230. # [09:45] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) (Remote closed the connection)
  231. # [09:46] <annevk2> it's not really informed journalism afaict
  232. # [09:46] <annevk2> for the admittedly few articles I read there
  233. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen, Hixie: the "them" in the case of that tweet is my friend Masataka Yakura
  234. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> I will encourage him to post to the list about it
  235. # [09:48] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@m223j.studby.ntnu.no) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  236. # [09:48] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  237. # [09:53] <hsivonen> annevk2: surely it's informed to call H.264 proprietary in the FSF sense even if not in the ISO sense
  238. # [09:55] * Joins: MadAtWork (n=not_@83.139.194.2)
  239. # [09:56] <hsivonen> what's the problem with simply having <rp> as conforming?
  240. # [09:56] <annevk2> it is conforming
  241. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> the tweet was about <rb>
  242. # [09:57] <hsivonen> oh
  243. # [09:57] <annevk2> I'm thinking it maybe should not be so you do not need to bother about fallback
  244. # [09:57] <annevk2> <ruby> support is mandatory after all
  245. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> "proprietary" seems like a good word to avoid using at all
  246. # [09:58] <hsivonen> annevk2: video is mandatory, too, but we still have fallback for legacy browsers
  247. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> Alan Ginsberg used to make a point of using alternative terms like "unlegal drugs" instead of "illegal drugs"
  248. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> maybe people should just say "unfree" instead of "proprietary"
  249. # [10:01] <MadAtWork> video is something a browser could be unable to support due to platform restraints.
  250. # [10:01] <MadAtWork> ruby sounds like something that even lynx/links can support in a way or another.
  251. # [10:01] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  252. # [10:01] <annevk2> hsivonen, ah yeah, I forgot to mention that the other data point I had was that myakura suggested ruby fallback was very poor
  253. # [10:02] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  254. # [10:07] <hsivonen> MadAtWork: we have a blanket exception for platform limitations anyway
  255. # [10:08] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@bbb72-0-162-219.bendbroadband.com)
  256. # [10:08] <sayrer> annevk2: you have to pay to use h264
  257. # [10:09] <sayrer> annevk2: if they didn't own it, presumably you wouldn't have to pay them
  258. # [10:09] <sayrer> annevk2: so, proprietary
  259. # [10:09] <MadAtWork> My point was that for video, or image, or audio, a fallback is necessary, for ruby or rp it's not that useful.
  260. # [10:09] * Quits: Samer (n=sziadeh@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  261. # [10:10] <annevk2> sayrer, I always thought proprietary/standards-based was separate from RF
  262. # [10:10] <sayrer> annevk2: proprietary is an english word
  263. # [10:10] <sayrer> annevk2: I'm sure SDOs have definitions that suit them
  264. # [10:11] <MadAtWork> proprietary software can be free.
  265. # [10:11] <annevk2> seems I was misinformed
  266. # [10:12] <sayrer> annevk2: well, I'm interested in non-proprietary codecs that one would have to pay for
  267. # [10:13] * Joins: foolip (n=philip@pat.se.opera.com)
  268. # [10:13] <sayrer> but this is just grade school level debate. probably above your average HTML5 argument.
  269. # [10:13] <annevk2> did I do anything wrong?
  270. # [10:13] <sayrer> not lately :)
  271. # [10:14] <sayrer> afaik!
  272. # [10:14] <annevk2> no need to be so rude then
  273. # [10:14] <sayrer> your average --> does not mean Anne van Kesteren's arguments
  274. # [10:14] <sayrer> in case it sounded too personal
  275. # [10:14] <sayrer> apologies
  276. # [10:15] <sayrer> "your average" means something like "the typical" in american english
  277. # [10:15] * Quits: Hixie (i=ianh@trivini.no) (Remote closed the connection)
  278. # [10:19] <Philip`> http://www.on2.com/index.php?594 - "Avoid potential costly royalties associated with open standards."
  279. # [10:19] <Philip`> http://www.on2.com/index.php?308 - "our proprietary On2 Video compression technology"
  280. # [10:20] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-98-248-43-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  281. # [10:20] <jgraham> Philip`: Just tell us what the OED has to say about the matter :)
  282. # [10:20] <Philip`> They seem to use proprietary/open independently of RF status
  283. # [10:20] <sayrer> Philip`: that is funny!
  284. # [10:20] <MadAtWork> sayrer: funny, "your average" doesn't actually refer to the statistic average, more like to the statistic mode :P
  285. # [10:20] <MadAtWork> AH the quirks of the language.
  286. # [10:21] <Philip`> jgraham: Dictionary definitions are boring and pointless :-p
  287. # [10:21] <MadAtWork> Philip`: that "potential costly royalties" puzzled me as well yesterday.
  288. # [10:21] <sayrer> MadAtWork: I am very bad at avoiding idioms of the USA. I get burned quite often!
  289. # [10:21] <jgraham> Philip`: Often they are interesting and useful :)
  290. # [10:22] <sayrer> HTML5 is an open standard
  291. # [10:22] <MadAtWork> sayrer: idioms are part of a human conversation, no need to apologize, but it's still funny how technical term and idiomatic expression mismatch.
  292. # [10:22] <sayrer> "HTML5 is an open standard"
  293. # [10:22] <sayrer> epither or complitment
  294. # [10:23] <sayrer> epithet, even
  295. # [10:23] * Philip` hates it when essays/articles talking about X start with giving a dictionary definition of X, because it just seems incredibly lazy
  296. # [10:23] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  297. # [10:23] <MadAtWork> jgraham: I guess people enjoys spinnging the meaning of words.
  298. # [10:24] <sayrer> HTML5 is an open standard. I will charge everyone the same amount as I license my IPR.
  299. # [10:24] <Philip`> By the way, someone should tell the On2 site designers about the value of meaningful URLs
  300. # [10:24] <sayrer> URLs don't have meaning
  301. # [10:24] <Philip`> They do to humans
  302. # [10:24] <MadAtWork> They don't on their own, but they gain meaning.
  303. # [10:25] <sayrer> maybe to humans who can parse the bizaree bidirectional URL syntax
  304. # [10:25] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@89.127.177.75)
  305. # [10:25] <sayrer> nobody would wish it on their worst enemy. it is an abomination.
  306. # [10:26] <MadAtWork> Hm, to put in image macro terms: "pretty url is pretty".
  307. # [10:26] <MadAtWork> Which stands as a value on its own, of course by pretty I mean readable.
  308. # [10:26] <Philip`> sayrer: You don't need to be an expert to derive more meaning from a hypothetical "http://www.on2.com/on2-video-advantages" than from "http://www.on2.com/index.php?594"
  309. # [10:27] <sayrer> Philip`: dude, people don't even know the difference between the browser UI and the web page
  310. # [10:27] <Philip`> and it would make me much less likely to get mixed up when pasting links into IRC
  311. # [10:27] <hsivonen> index.php?124 is *so* 2002
  312. # [10:28] <sayrer> Philip`: do you get that? people don't understand the different trust one should give the web page and the browser chrome?
  313. # [10:28] <sayrer> it makes most browser nerd arguments seem pretty stupid
  314. # [10:28] <hsivonen> sayrer: yay for EV certs, then
  315. # [10:29] <Philip`> sayrer: I don't care about those people, I only care about me
  316. # [10:29] <sayrer> Philip`: that's what the loser of the argument always says
  317. # [10:29] <sayrer> hsivonen: exactly
  318. # [10:29] <MadAtWork> sayrer: I trust people will eventually grow up being more and more knowledgeable about web stuff?
  319. # [10:29] <sayrer> nope
  320. # [10:30] <hsivonen> MadAtWork: haha
  321. # [10:30] <sayrer> user education doesn't work
  322. # [10:30] <MadAtWork> You have a crystal ball I don't?
  323. # [10:30] <sayrer> it's a hard problem
  324. # [10:30] <MadAtWork> Um, no it's not.
  325. # [10:30] <jgraham> User education is somewhat different from people growing up with someing as a fundamental part of their culture
  326. # [10:30] <sayrer> MadAtWork: show me a study that praises user education
  327. # [10:30] <MadAtWork> It's a hardly addressed problem.
  328. # [10:31] <MadAtWork> sayrer: My 14 yo sister knows more about pcs than my father does.
  329. # [10:31] <Philip`> We could rank people by order of knowledgability of web stuff, and then kill the bottom half, and that'd greatly improve the average
  330. # [10:31] <sayrer> MadAtWork: not sure you have a strong argument here
  331. # [10:32] <sayrer> Philip`: I've been phished
  332. # [10:32] <Philip`> which is probably a similar effect to waiting 40 years
  333. # [10:32] <sayrer> you?
  334. # [10:32] <jgraham> (I don't know if people growing up with the web also grow up understaning the difference between the chrome and the web page though)
  335. # [10:32] <sayrer> jgraham: it is really a very subtle concept
  336. # [10:32] <MadAtWork> Philip`: and somehow at the same time it might relieve some pension fund costs... hmmm...
  337. # [10:34] <MadAtWork> In every company I've been the young people knew the difference, the 30-something sometimes did, 40+ people didn't unless they had a background in cs/it.
  338. # [10:34] <Philip`> Someone should make a web browser which uses primary colours for its chrome and renders all web page content in monochrome, to make the difference clearer
  339. # [10:34] <MadAtWork> The stats are lower if you go around asking what a web browser is.
  340. # [10:34] <sayrer> Philip`: I guess you agree
  341. # [10:35] * Joins: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@m223j.studby.ntnu.no)
  342. # [10:39] * Joins: Samer (n=sziadeh@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  343. # [10:42] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  344. # [10:49] * zcorpan_ notes that networkState might not be NETWORK_LOADING when inspecting it in the onprogress event handler
  345. # [10:50] <zcorpan_> 1. you receive a byte and decide to que a task to fire a progress event
  346. # [10:50] <zcorpan_> 2. you find that the video now has completed loading and set networkState to NETWORK_LOADED
  347. # [10:50] <zcorpan_> 3. the event loop spins and fires the progress event
  348. # [10:51] <zcorpan_> the non-normative event summary table is convenient for writing test cases but might result in inaccurate or wrong tests
  349. # [10:54] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  350. # [10:55] * Joins: Hixie (i=ianh@trivini.no)
  351. # [10:57] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  352. # [11:02] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-204-215.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  353. # [11:02] * Quits: abarth (n=abarth@c-98-210-108-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  354. # [11:09] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-wuiptbqsjbvgboza)
  355. # [11:12] * Joins: leeky (n=leeky@62.121.18.221)
  356. # [11:15] <hsivonen> I'm again annoyed by Google not providing obvious ways to file bugs against their services
  357. # [11:16] <hsivonen> finally found a bug report form
  358. # [11:20] <Philip`> I imagine an obvious easily-findable bug report form would not be very scalable when you have a billion users
  359. # [11:21] <jgraham> Oh I always thought you were supposed to use the HixieBot for bug reports
  360. # [11:21] <hsivonen> maybe having to go through multiple levels of searching in order to file a bug is a bozo filter
  361. # [11:21] <Philip`> I just type bugs into the http://google.com search box, and assume they'll find it when analysing the logs
  362. # [11:22] <MadAtWork> haha
  363. # [11:23] <hsivonen> It's so sad that with all the compute power and face recognition in Street View, YouTube still hasn't as simple image analysis as detecting and autocropping out letterboxing
  364. # [11:24] <roc> Philip`: send your complaints about the NSA the same way
  365. # [11:25] <Philip`> roc: I prefer to send my compaints about the NSA over HTTPS, to make them stand out more to the loggers
  366. # [11:25] <Rik`> isn't the NSA able to collect bugs from our thoughts yet ?
  367. # [11:26] <roc> not as far as you know
  368. # [11:26] <Philip`> Rik`: That's how I complain about Uri Geller
  369. # [11:27] <Hixie> we're definitely going to have to make dataTransfer.types visible during drags
  370. # [11:27] <Hixie> but what should we do about dataTransfer.files?
  371. # [11:28] <roc> I got to use the quadratic formula for work today
  372. # [11:28] <Rik`> (thx wikipedia for giving me a quick hint about uri geller)
  373. # [11:28] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B015F0D.dip.t-dialin.net)
  374. # [11:29] * Parts: leeky (n=leeky@62.121.18.221) ("Leaving...")
  375. # [11:30] <hsivonen> (even more sad that YouTube has a "let's fix this in documentation" fix instead of a silent software fix)
  376. # [11:33] <Philip`> roc: Did you look on Wikipedia to double-check the equation?
  377. # [11:33] * Philip` always does that for things he really ought to know :-(
  378. # [11:33] <roc> I am dreadfully embarrassed to say that I did
  379. # [11:33] <roc> but at least I had remembered it correctly
  380. # [11:33] <Hixie> i didn't remember that even when i was at uni
  381. # [11:34] <Hixie> i just wrote a program for it on my TI-83
  382. # [11:34] <Philip`> (-b+/-sqrt(b^2-4ac))/2a or something?
  383. # [11:34] <roc> correct
  384. # [11:34] <annevk2> Hixie, just on dropping right?
  385. # [11:34] <Philip`> You ought to just work it out from first principles
  386. # [11:34] <annevk2> Hixie, isn't that the case for other data too?
  387. # [11:34] <Hixie> annevk2: for the other data, we can just expose .types
  388. # [11:36] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-201-53.bredband.comhem.se)
  389. # [11:38] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  390. # [11:39] <jgraham> Philip`: I am pleased to find I have not forgotten how to do that already
  391. # [11:40] <Philip`> Unfortunately I have :-/
  392. # [11:42] <jgraham> (the trick is that ax^2 + bx + c = 0 === (x + b/2a)^2 + c/a - (b/2a)^2 = 0
  393. # [11:42] <jgraham> )
  394. # [11:43] <Rik`> jgraham: if a != 0
  395. # [11:44] <jgraham> Rik`: Well yes, but it's not a quadratic if a = 0
  396. # [11:44] <Philip`> You're also assuming 2 != 0
  397. # [11:44] <Philip`> otherwise the answer will be undefined
  398. # [11:45] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  399. # [11:46] <Hixie> annevk2: but i don't know how to do that for .files
  400. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> I notice that http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML claims that <iframe> is a CDATA element. Is that accurate or not? The current spec doesn't indicate it's a CDATA element.
  401. # [11:48] <Philip`> "Lachy [n=Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com] has quit" - it doesn't seem such perfect privacy when http://www.google.com/search?q=%22london.perfect-privacy.com points to Lachy as the fourth search result
  402. # [11:50] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@89.127.177.75) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  403. # [11:50] <Lachy_> LOL
  404. # [11:51] <jgraham> Given their inability to write english sentences, for example "With Perfect Privacy you can anonymize and encrypt your whole Internet", I'm not sure that's a great surprise
  405. # [11:51] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  406. # [11:51] <Philip`> MikeSmith: "A start tag whose tag name is "iframe" ... Follow the generic CDATA element parsing algorithm."
  407. # [11:51] <Philip`> says the tree constructor section
  408. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> Philip`: thanks
  409. # [11:52] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@89.127.177.75)
  410. # [11:53] <Lachy> Philip`, in this case, I still have significant plausible denyability since I'm not the only one using their service
  411. # [11:53] <Lachy> *deniability
  412. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie: seems like the CDATA list in http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/syntax.html#elements-0 should have <iframe> included
  413. # [11:54] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-4fb52bdf589180ff) ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3pre/20090804032127]")
  414. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> want me to file a bug on it?
  415. # [11:55] <Philip`> Lachy: Given the number of search results, there aren't a huge number of other people using their service
  416. # [11:58] * Philip` wonders if you could look at the TCP packets and timings received from the anonymising proxy, and deduce the latency of the user (and thus get some insight into their geographic location)
  417. # [11:59] * Quits: franksalim (n=frank@adsl-75-61-85-210.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  418. # [12:00] * Joins: franksalim (n=frank@adsl-75-61-85-210.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  419. # [12:06] * Quits: Samer (n=sziadeh@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  420. # [12:22] <virtuelv> encrypting the whole Internet
  421. # [12:22] <virtuelv> accidentally
  422. # [12:23] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  423. # [12:24] * gsnedders|work often does that
  424. # [12:26] <virtuelv> http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/6zk5r/i_accidently_a_fleshlight/ ← for those missing the reference
  425. # [12:29] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  426. # [12:29] <Lachy> Philip`, that's probably because most services people use don't publicly publish their access logs where they can get indexed by search engines, unlike IRC
  427. # [12:33] <Lachy> virtuelv, the images in the forum that reddit page links to seem to be unavailable.
  428. # [12:33] * zcorpan notes that .duration might have interop problems especially for files where the audio component and video component have different lengths
  429. # [12:34] <Lachy> virtuelv, what does it mean to "accidentally a fleshlight"? (I know what a fleshlight is, I'm just curious what's being done with it)
  430. # [12:34] <Lachy> well, other than the usual stuff
  431. # [12:37] <virtuelv> Lachy: that's the point of the meme, there is something missing between accidentally and the (whole) fleshlight
  432. # [12:37] <virtuelv> in this case, there is definitely something missing between "your" and "whole internet"
  433. # [12:39] <Lachy> virtuelv, how is that a meme?
  434. # [12:39] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-dplfswyfvnhegqfz)
  435. # [12:40] <Philip`> virtuelv: Why is something missing?
  436. # [12:40] <virtuelv> http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=%22accidentally+the+whole%22&sourceid=opera&num=100&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
  437. # [12:40] <virtuelv> I'm not pointing directly to the top result there
  438. # [12:40] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  439. # [12:40] <Philip`> virtuelv: It seems to make grammatical sense to me
  440. # [12:41] <annevk2> it's tempting to write "Hi Sam, I agree that the wording on summary is sufficient for publication. However, like others I think it needs to be made non-conforming before Last Call."
  441. # [12:41] <virtuelv> Philip`: does the sentence «I accidentally the whole bottle» make sense to you?
  442. # [12:42] <virtuelv> you accidentally WHAT the whole bottle?
  443. # [12:42] <Philip`> virtuelv: anonymize and encrypt it
  444. # [12:42] <jgraham> annevk2: Isn't it just
  445. # [12:43] <annevk2> hm?
  446. # [12:44] <virtuelv> Philip`: I don't have a whole internet anywhere
  447. # [12:45] <jgraham> annevk2: Tempting to write that. It seems there is a tactic of drawing a line in the middle that people will converge on and then trying to slowly move the line toward the previous, unacceptable, position
  448. # [12:46] * Quits: sebmarkbage (n=miranda@h-6-72.A146.priv.bahnhof.se) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  449. # [12:47] <annevk2> yeah, I'm also annoyed with all the overhead these meaningless emails generate
  450. # [12:47] <Lachy> http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/I_accidentally_X
  451. # [12:47] <annevk2> we already know the summary issue is not closed
  452. # [12:47] <annevk2> no need to hear it again from all the naysayers
  453. # [12:48] <jgraham> This "whole internet" thing reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAUyaELfwBo
  454. # [12:48] <Philip`> virtuelv: It doesn't make semantic sense (given that the Internet does not belong to anybody), but that's completely different to not making grammatical sense
  455. # [12:49] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-wuiptbqsjbvgboza) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  456. # [12:52] <jgraham> Philip`: It doesn't make grammatical sense either I think although I'm not sure I can explain the technical reason
  457. # [12:53] <jgraham> But grammer allows for things like countable vs uncountable nouns
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  459. # [12:53] <jgraham> so "I want more waters" is grammatically wrong if you mean "I want more water"
  460. # [12:54] <jgraham> (whereas "I want more emails" is fine because email is countable)
  461. # [12:57] <Lachy> jgraham, that depends if you consider the plural of email to be "email" or "emails"
  462. # [12:58] <Lachy> hmm, I think there are cases where either can be used, and others where only one works.
  463. # [12:58] <Philip`> It could say "anonymize and encrypt your whole intranet", and that would be perfectly fine if e.g. you were a network administrator, and the only difference with Internet is that there's only one Internet
  464. # [12:59] <hsivonen> sigh. still stalled with updating and relauncihng the v.nu system, because I hod forgotten to press a button that makes my DNS changes actually have an effect
  465. # [12:59] <hsivonen> usability++
  466. # [13:00] <jgraham> Philip`: That I think is the critical difference. But I wasn't sure if "singleton" is a concept in grammar
  467. # [13:00] <Philip`> jgraham: If someone made a second Internet, would the sentence magically change from grammatically incorrect to grammatically correct?
  468. # [13:02] <jgraham> Philip`: Maybe. I'm also unclear if it is considered a syntactic error to place a non-owned-item after a possesive or if that is a sematic error
  469. # [13:02] <Lachy> I wonder if that could be considered false advertising, since the IRC messages I posted while I was connected to the VPN are no longer encrypted when others receive them
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  471. # [13:09] * Philip` wonders how many 'anonymising' services are secretly run by government departments
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  473. # [13:26] <Lachy> Philip`, http://www.perfect-privacy.com/faq.html#faq6
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  475. # [13:30] <jgraham> Lachy: It seems like a good way of targetting people with something to hide
  476. # [13:31] <Lachy> yeah, probably.
  477. # [13:31] <Lachy> But I don't use it for illegal activities. I only access legal services through it
  478. # [13:31] <Lachy> like BBC iPlayer and Hulu
  479. # [13:32] <jgraham> That is probably illegal if you are not a UK license payer
  480. # [13:32] <jgraham> (iPlayer)
  481. # [13:33] <hsivonen> I think territorial restrictions on Web sites are antithetical to the Web
  482. # [13:34] * hsivonen is still bitter that Daily Show now blocks visitors by country
  483. # [13:34] <Lachy> that's their fault for not offering an alternative without territorial restrictions, even if users outside the UK had to pay a small fee
  484. # [13:34] <Philip`> UK residents only need a TV license for live video, not prerecorded stuff that's on iPlayer
  485. # [13:34] <hsivonen> also, IMO, everyone anywhere should be able to pay and subscribe to the BBC
  486. # [13:35] <Philip`> I guess that if you're not in the UK then it's just plain copyright infringement, independent of any TV licensing
  487. # [13:35] <Lachy> Philip`, the UK should just make the BBC tax payer funded instead of requring TV licences
  488. # [13:35] <Philip`> That seems very unfair on people who don't watch TV at all
  489. # [13:36] <hsivonen> new legislation in Finland will consider TVless people such oddballs that they can be charged as collateral damage
  490. # [13:36] <jgraham> I would for sure subscribe to the BBC if it were possible. But that would require the BBC to forfeit their ability to sell their shows abroad
  491. # [13:37] <jgraham> Which I assume they don't want to do
  492. # [13:37] <Lachy> jgraham, what's the difference? Either way, theyr'e getting money. What does it matter if it's thorugh subscription fees or DVD sales?
  493. # [13:37] <hsivonen> jgraham: If I don't need to pay for subtitling, why shouldn't I be able to purchase the shows from the BBC directly?
  494. # [13:37] <Philip`> I believe the BBC says the reason it doesn't have (advertisting-supported) non-UK iPlayer access is that it doesn't have the rights for most programmes, and negotiating the rights is a long and complex and ongoing process
  495. # [13:37] <jgraham> Lachy: Not sell as DVDs but sell to other networks
  496. # [13:37] <jgraham> or subsiduries such as BBC America
  497. # [13:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: the concept of regional networks sucks
  498. # [13:38] <Lachy> jgraham, you're making the false assumption that internet distribution would kill TV distribution, which it won't.
  499. # [13:39] <Lachy> that's like saying just because films are available on DVD before they air on free-to-air TV, then TV networks wouldn't buy those films and show them, but that is clearly not the case
  500. # [13:40] <jgraham> Lachy: I'm making the reasonable assumption that offering the shows online reduces their resale value by reducing the market
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  502. # [13:40] * Philip` has noticed the thumbnails on iPlayer for movies are almost always photos of actors in interviews, not images from the film itself, and wonders if that's rights-related
  503. # [13:41] <Lachy> they just need to adapt their business model to the times, rather than simply fight to maintain an old business model designed for last century
  504. # [13:41] <jgraham> hsivonen: Indeed, but it's what we're stuck with for now
  505. # [13:41] <hsivonen> in the case of The Daily Show and Colbert Report, no regional network carries them
  506. # [13:42] <hsivonen> and they don't even sell them to me by episode with DRM infestation on iTunes
  507. # [13:42] <hsivonen> they don't monetize my willingness to pay in any way
  508. # [13:42] <hsivonen> but I guess I'm preaching to the choir here
  509. # [13:44] <Lachy> fwiw, I would quite happily spend the $100/month or so I spend on services that allow me to access content that isn't otherwise available legally in my area on legitimate services if they fixed their business models
  510. # [13:46] <Lachy> actually, it's only about $70
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  513. # [14:17] <hsivonen> I wonder if https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=508075 has ever been a practical problem for Opera
  514. # [14:19] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: Yes
  515. # [14:21] <zcorpan> closing on <body> would be the wrong fix
  516. # [14:21] <zcorpan> the right fix is reparsing
  517. # [14:22] <zcorpan> which is a wontfix :)
  518. # [14:24] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: (Very very very rare, though)
  519. # [14:31] <gsnedders|work> Anyone know about FF plans for outerHTML support?
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  521. # [14:33] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work, zcorpan: ok. thanks
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  526. # [14:51] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if Parallels hung randomly or if Parallels doesn't work properly when the VM hard disk image is on an AFP volume
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  617. # [20:55] <ojan> Hixie: you there?
  618. # [20:56] <ojan> annevk2: or you? i bet you'd know the answer to my question.
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  620. # [20:58] <paul_irish> is there a more appropriate IRC channel for the webfont conversation?
  621. # [20:59] <othermaciej> people have discussed webfonts here
  622. # [20:59] <othermaciej> this isn't necessarily the home base of all people with an interest
  623. # [21:01] <annevk2> ojan, somewhat
  624. # [21:01] <annevk2> are webfonts even discussed over IRC?
  625. # [21:02] <Lachy_> annevk2, not frequently
  626. # [21:02] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  627. # [21:02] <ojan> annevk2: bit of a n00b question...i want to propose an extension to the CSS position property. is www-style the right mailing list?
  628. # [21:02] <annevk2> yeah
  629. # [21:02] <ojan> annevk2: k. thanks.
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  633. # [21:08] * Lachy ponders whether it's worth responding to the summary issue again explaining why I'm not very happy about the compromise, but can accept it for now, at least until I get more evidence
  634. # [21:10] <Lachy> ... probably not, but I should at least write my thoughts down for future reference
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  643. # [21:31] <othermaciej> Lachy: I don't think it would be disruptive to do that
  644. # [21:31] <othermaciej> Lachy: I think it could be constructive
  645. # [21:32] <othermaciej> to show that there are real concessions being made by both sides
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  648. # [21:44] <Dashiva> It's good to see that we're making progress on listening to each other's arguments: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0341.html
  649. # [21:48] <othermaciej> Dashiva: yeah...
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  651. # [21:52] <annevk2> it somewhat worries me that Manu's email does not mention the xmlns namespace issue at all
  652. # [21:52] <annevk2> it has been repeatedly pointed out as at least a potential issue to the RDFa guys
  653. # [21:53] <Philip`> As long as you can hack it with namespace-unaware APIs to work in simple cases, surely it's good enough to rely on as a fundamental part of a technology intended to become ubiquitous and widely deployed
  654. # [21:53] <Dashiva> It's a feature, not an issue
  655. # [21:54] <annevk2> I'm always met with sarscasm here, damn you guys!
  656. # [21:56] <othermaciej> annevk2: what's the xmlns namespace issue?
  657. # [21:56] <annevk2> in XML xmlns is put in a namespace
  658. # [21:56] <annevk2> a special "XMLNS Namespace"
  659. # [21:57] <annevk2> this does not happen in HTML
  660. # [21:57] <Philip`> (except in SVG/MathML in HTML, I think)
  661. # [21:57] <othermaciej> Philip`: my vague recollection is that namespace-unaware APIs are not entirely interoperable for attributes with colons in them in current browsers
  662. # [21:58] <othermaciej> annevk2: I wasn't really clear on why Manu was investigating what happens with xmlns attributes
  663. # [21:58] <othermaciej> annevk2: maybe he misunderstood the real issue
  664. # [21:58] <Philip`> othermaciej: But parsing and getAttribute seems to work, which is apparently good enough for the RDFa people
  665. # [21:59] <othermaciej> you know, it wouldn't be so hard for them to design something that is essentially like RDFa but avoids namespaces so that weirdness in text/html can be avoided
  666. # [21:59] <othermaciej> they would get a lot more traction that way, I think
  667. # [21:59] <Dashiva> Can I call it irony that a technology from XHTML doesn't use the very methods added for it?
  668. # [22:00] <annevk2> othermaciej, yeah I suppose
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  670. # [22:00] <annevk2> othermaciej, I mean if what he just reported was news to him o_O
  671. # [22:00] <Philip`> othermaciej: That'd break compatibility with legacy content that uses xmlns:foo in text/html, though
  672. # [22:00] <Philip`> (and legacy parsers and legacy tutorials etc)
  673. # [22:01] <Dashiva> What's the phrase again? Delay, divert, too late?
  674. # [22:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: Note that we tried to support @xmlns in text/html, IIRC, and had it break tons
  675. # [22:03] <Hixie> othermaciej: microdata is "essentially like rdfa" but avoids the problems with rdfa
  676. # [22:03] * Quits: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-xhczwxvcwkjpnunu)
  677. # [22:03] <Philip`> gsnedders: You might have tried to support it in a stupid way, so that's not evidence that it's impossible to do anything differently to what's done today
  678. # [22:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: Well I didn't work then
  679. # [22:06] <Philip`> gsnedders: (I'm using "you" in the same sense that you used "we")
  680. # [22:07] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-204-215.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  681. # [22:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yes, I know… But it means I know nothing
  682. # [22:07] <Philip`> gsnedders: I've not seen anyone describing what Opera actually tried to implement, and "support @xmlns in text/html" is extremely vague, so there doesn't seem to be enough information to conclude anything
  683. # [22:08] <othermaciej> annevk2: I think it was news to him
  684. # [22:08] <Dashiva> I think they made xmlns:foo be (xmlns, foo) instead of (null, xmlns:foo)
  685. # [22:08] <othermaciej> annevk2: based on earlier private communication with him, he thought there had to be a new spec requirement to require preserving xmlns nodes in the DOM as-is
  686. # [22:09] <annevk2> then he misunderstood the issue
  687. # [22:09] <annevk2> the issue was that xmlns was not put in the correct namespace when it went into the DOM
  688. # [22:09] <annevk2> the other issue of course is that xmlns would mean something completely different in HTML (it would only apply to RDFa)
  689. # [22:09] <Philip`> That's only a problem if there are any practical consequences to it not being put in the correct namespace
  690. # [22:09] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm thinking maybe they could come up with a version that solves the namespace issues, but still have it be close enough to "RDFa in XHTML" that they would be happy to still call it RDFa
  691. # [22:10] <othermaciej> Hixie: maybe that exercise would lead them to conclude that microdata meets their needs, I dunno
  692. # [22:10] <Hixie> seems unlikely
  693. # [22:10] <Philip`> (so I suppose it would be good to demonstrate those practical consequences)
  694. # [22:10] <Hixie> they're never going to make a version that doesn't have prefixes at all
  695. # [22:10] <othermaciej> Hixie: in any case it seems better than completely rejecting all that feedback
  696. # [22:11] <othermaciej> annevk2: maybe you could help him see that he may have misunderstood the issue
  697. # [22:13] <annevk2> mah, you're too good
  698. # [22:14] <annevk2> I just like to bitch about these things and let someone else care, oh well, I'll write it
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  701. # [22:17] <Dashiva> annevk2: You lost that chance when you were the serious one vs Philip earlier
  702. # [22:19] <annevk2> pretty hard to get a break in this channel too :p
  703. # [22:21] * Joins: vs-hs (n=vs-hs@shell.etttretresju.net)
  704. # [22:21] <Dashiva> It's okay, we still love you
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  706. # [22:33] <Hixie> i hope we have a vote on this summary stuff, i really don't like what's in the spec now
  707. # [22:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: Can you fix the the issue you added when fixing the infinite loop?
  708. # [22:35] <Hixie> it's on the pile
  709. # [22:35] <Hixie> is it urgent?
  710. # [22:36] <Hixie> i'm trying to do the file api stuff first
  711. # [22:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: Not really
  712. # [22:36] <Hixie> btw can anyone reproduce http://stanford.edu/~jlebar/moz/screen1.png ?
  713. # [22:37] * Joins: ap (n=ap@nat/apple/x-vmvzcfjfadhmmvuu)
  714. # [22:39] <Philip`> Hixie: Yes
  715. # [22:39] <Philip`> Hixie: e.g. set minimum font size to 16
  716. # [22:39] <Philip`> (in Firefox)
  717. # [22:42] <othermaciej> Hixie: it looks like it may be heading in a direction where it will only be settled by vote
  718. # [22:42] <othermaciej> I'm ok with that as long as Sam actually calls a vote to decide the issue at some point, instead of letting the issue fester forever
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  723. # [23:13] <gsnedders> Hixie: But it'd be nice to have a parsing algorithm that worked :P
  724. # [23:13] <Hixie> gsnedders: i'll get there
  725. # [23:13] <Hixie> Philip`: aah, interesting
  726. # [23:13] <Hixie> Philip`: i wonder how to work around that
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  740. # Session Close: Fri Aug 07 00:00:00 2009

The end :)