/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-08-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 07 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:26] <gsnedders> Aahhh! My ears!
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  12. # [00:26] <gsnedders> The noise!
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  17. # [00:39] <Hixie> sicking: yt?
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  19. # [00:39] <sicking> Hixie, pong
  20. # [00:40] <Hixie> when i first specced localStorage, it supported arbitrary structured data
  21. # [00:40] <Hixie> but mozilla wanted it to be only strings instead
  22. # [00:40] <Hixie> now that Files are being introduced, i've got a request from mozilla to allow localStorage to include File or DOMString
  23. # [00:40] <Hixie> would it make sense to just allow any structured data again?
  24. # [00:40] <sicking> bet you didn't see that one coming, did'ya ;)
  25. # [00:41] <Hixie> maybe using the "structured clone" concept? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#safe-passing-of-structured-data
  26. # [00:41] <sicking> we aim to be unpredictable, never know where you have us. Like Ninjas we are
  27. # [00:41] <Hixie> hah
  28. # [00:41] <sicking> Hixie, hmm.. i would be for that yeah
  29. # [00:42] <sicking> Hixie, i'll have to check with the people that worked with localStorage, but IMHO it makes a lot of sense
  30. # [00:42] <Hixie> k
  31. # [00:42] <Hixie> that means being able to store File, FileList, FileData, RegExps, ImageData, etc
  32. # [00:43] <Hixie> as well as any combination of Object or Array that doesn't have loops in it
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  37. # [00:59] <sicking> Hixie, sounds good, though a lot of work
  38. # [00:59] <sicking> Hixie, But I think it's the right thing to do
  39. # [01:00] <Hixie> k
  40. # [01:00] <sicking> RegExps was actually the only thing that stuck out there when i first looked at the HTML spec
  41. # [01:00] <sicking> but i guess they can be serialized
  42. # [01:01] <Hixie> if you can serialise ImageData and FileList, serialising RegExp will be a cake walk
  43. # [01:01] <sicking> yeah, i guess
  44. # [01:01] <sicking> well.. except if they have callback functions
  45. # [01:02] <Hixie> it only clones the pattern and flags
  46. # [01:02] <Hixie> "Return a newly constructed RegExp object with the same pattern and flags as input."
  47. # [01:02] <Hixie> even lastIndex isn't copied
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  50. # [01:09] <sicking> Hixie, so there's one problem
  51. # [01:09] <Hixie> what happens if the underlying file goes away?
  52. # [01:09] <sicking> there's that too
  53. # [01:09] <sicking> but
  54. # [01:10] <sicking> Hixie, storing files means doing IO on the main thread
  55. # [01:10] <sicking> Hixie, something that we're trying not to do
  56. # [01:10] <sicking> Hixie, hmm.. actually
  57. # [01:10] <Hixie> Storage is async to disk
  58. # [01:10] <Hixie> it's only sync to RAM
  59. # [01:11] <sicking> not sure that sqlite is able to do it that way
  60. # [01:11] <sicking> didn't sound like it
  61. # [01:11] <Hixie> oh, you use sqlite as the backend? interesting
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  64. # [01:12] <sicking> but actually the File object is just a reference, we wouldn't need to read the actual data, so I think it's fine
  65. # [01:12] <sicking> ImageData is another cup of tea though, since it has sync accessors
  66. # [01:13] <sicking> But File should be fine
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  68. # [01:17] <sicking> so sounds like we're fine with everything but ImageData
  69. # [01:18] <Hixie> how do you handle ImageData with postMessage()?
  70. # [01:18] <sicking> maybe we can create a way to convert File to/from ImageData to allow people to store ImageData
  71. # [01:18] <sicking> we don't
  72. # [01:18] <sicking> for postMessage we only do JSON right now
  73. # [01:18] <sicking> and only to workers
  74. # [01:19] <Hixie> let me rephrase... how do you intend to handle ImageData with postMessage()? :-)
  75. # [01:19] <sicking> not sure if anyone was aware of it until a few days ago when i looked at the structured clone spec
  76. # [01:19] <Hixie> ah
  77. # [01:19] <sicking> also all the postMessage we have today are wholly in-memory
  78. # [01:20] <sicking> so no IO problems
  79. # [01:20] <Hixie> there's a strong desire from people to be able to do heavy-duty image manipulation on background workers
  80. # [01:20] <sicking> agreed
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  84. # [01:20] <Hixie> and i figure once you work out a way to do ImageData cloning efficiently with postMessage(), you can just use the same technique for Storage
  85. # [01:21] <sicking> it's not the cloning part that's the problem. It's the storing it to disk
  86. # [01:21] <sicking> which you don't need for postMessage
  87. # [01:21] <sicking> but do need for pushState/localStorage
  88. # [01:21] <Hixie> can't you just keep the ImageData in RAM, give it a unique ID, store a unique ID to the database, and then in the background store the image data to a separate table with that ID?
  89. # [01:22] <sicking> not when reading
  90. # [01:22] <Hixie> i mean it's not trivial, but it doesn't seem that hard
  91. # [01:22] <Hixie> oh, reading is interesting, yes
  92. # [01:22] <Hixie> hmm
  93. # [01:22] <sicking> btw, i expect apple to feel the same way on this
  94. # [01:22] <Hixie> yeah reading ImageData from disk is a problem
  95. # [01:22] <Hixie> no disgreement there
  96. # [01:22] <Hixie> hmm
  97. # [01:23] <sicking> a possibility is to have two types of structured-clone
  98. # [01:23] <sicking> one for postMessage and one for other things
  99. # [01:23] <sicking> sort of sucks though
  100. # [01:23] <Hixie> so pushState() isn't a problem here, because the popstate event is async
  101. # [01:24] <sicking> sort of yeah, though i'd be a little worried about poor UI if the popstate event is delayed by a long time
  102. # [01:24] <Hixie> i'll make Storage fail if it contains an ImageData object, for now, until we can figure out some solution
  103. # [01:25] <sicking> sounds good
  104. # [01:25] <sicking> i'm not sure how much of structured clone we'll do for next release
  105. # [01:25] <sicking> we might just stick to JSON
  106. # [01:25] <Hixie> yeah well all of this is rather pie in the sky, i'll be the first to admit
  107. # [01:25] <sicking> as we're basically branching any day for FF3.6
  108. # [01:25] <sicking> hah
  109. # [01:25] <Hixie> i don't expect this stuff in browsers any time soon
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  111. # [01:26] <Hixie> should it throw or convert to null when you pass it an ImageData? (DOM nodes and raw CanvasPixelArrays convert to null)
  112. # [01:26] <Hixie> (Error objects and loops throw)
  113. # [01:27] <sicking> hmm.. what's the reason not to throw for DOM nodes and other host objects?
  114. # [01:27] <Hixie> i think that was so that we could support it later
  115. # [01:27] <Hixie> which would argue for this to convert to null
  116. # [01:28] <sicking> ah, hm
  117. # [01:28] * sicking ponders
  118. # [01:28] <Hixie> the idea being that one day people would postMessage something like { 'text version of the data', DOMNodeOfTheData }
  119. # [01:28] <Hixie> and the worker would look at the DOM node and say "oh that's null, must be an old browser, i'll use the text"
  120. # [01:28] <Hixie> instead of the script having to test and resend just text
  121. # [01:28] <sicking> not sure which is best actually
  122. # [01:29] <Hixie> not really sure. i really need a minion to note down the reasoning behind every checkin :-)
  123. # [01:29] <sicking> given that it might be slow to get the text version
  124. # [01:29] <sicking> maybe i'm thinking too much about perf though
  125. # [01:29] <Hixie> this is onl ever used in situations where perf sucks anyway
  126. # [01:29] <Hixie> cross-thread, I/O, etc
  127. # [01:29] <sicking> i guess there's some truth to that
  128. # [01:30] <sicking> not sure if we'll ever do DOM nodes though
  129. # [01:30] <Hixie> yeah
  130. # [01:30] <sicking> given how much of them can't be serialized
  131. # [01:30] <Hixie> me either
  132. # [01:30] <Hixie> i guess i'll throw for ImageData for now.
  133. # [01:30] <Hixie> it's easier to spec. :-)
  134. # [01:30] <Hixie> we can work out whether to change the nulls to throwing later
  135. # [01:30] <sicking> heh
  136. # [01:31] <sicking> people can just convert ImageData to a JS object instead :)
  137. # [01:31] <sicking> { "0,0
  138. # [01:31] <Hixie> that'll be even more painful performance-wise :-/
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  140. # [01:31] <sicking> ": [0, 255, 0], ... }
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  142. # [01:32] <sicking> i know, just kidding. though i'm sure someone will do it
  143. # [01:32] <sicking> but as long as slow operations look slow then IMHO we're good
  144. # [01:32] <Hixie> yeah
  145. # [01:32] <Hixie> or at least if not good, not so bad
  146. # [01:32] <sicking> right
  147. # [01:33] <sicking> btw, did you test that IE executes DOM inserted scripts out-of-order?
  148. # [01:33] <Hixie> off-hand i have no idea
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  150. # [01:33] <sicking> ok, testing now
  151. # [01:34] <Hixie> IE's script execution model is wacked
  152. # [01:34] <Hixie> (who would have thought innerHTML could affect it, e.g.)
  153. # [01:34] <sicking> i had a recollection that they executed scripts syncronously when you set .src
  154. # [01:34] <Hixie> i'm considering just making defer="" on <script> just be ignored, btw, and removing the crap around innerHTML
  155. # [01:34] <sicking> i think we should just use the Firefox model
  156. # [01:34] <Hixie> sicking: i'm sure whatever they do cannot be summarised in one sentence.
  157. # [01:35] <sicking> henris suggestion is basically what we do internally
  158. # [01:35] <Hixie> henri's suggestion scares me
  159. # [01:35] <Hixie> it makes the parsing even more complex in ways that are very subtle and hard to get right
  160. # [01:35] <sicking> it's not a huge deal implementation-wise
  161. # [01:35] <sicking> at least it wasn't for us
  162. # [01:35] <Hixie> you didn't have to follow a spec
  163. # [01:35] <sicking> just check if there are pending scripts when you reach the end of the stream
  164. # [01:35] <Hixie> what if i end up speccing something that is subtly different?
  165. # [01:36] <sicking> you already are :)
  166. # [01:36] <Hixie> i just hate the idea of being able to hit EOF multiple times
  167. # [01:36] <sicking> everywhere :)
  168. # [01:36] <sicking> no, just one EOF
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  170. # [01:36] <sicking> but we'd remove the implication that end-of-stream => EOF
  171. # [01:36] <sicking> (network stream that is)
  172. # [01:39] <Hixie> that's just weird and confusing
  173. # [01:39] <Hixie> i'd have to have two different kinds of EOF tokens in the tokeniser?
  174. # [01:40] <Hixie> one for scripts and one for document.write()?
  175. # [01:40] <Hixie> er, document.close)
  176. # [01:40] <Hixie> (
  177. # [01:43] * sicking ponders
  178. # [01:45] <sicking> technically no
  179. # [01:45] <sicking> Any of these would work:
  180. # [01:45] <sicking> 1. Two types of EOF
  181. # [01:45] <sicking> 2. Allowing EOF to go through the tokenizer twice
  182. # [01:46] <sicking> 3. Start a new tokenizer after the first EOF
  183. # [01:46] <Hixie> you've just listed three of my worst nightmares
  184. # [01:46] <sicking> 4. Reset/Restart the same tokenizer after the first EOF
  185. # [01:46] <Hixie> four of my worst nightmares...
  186. # [01:46] <sicking> really? you have poor imagination ;)
  187. # [01:46] <sicking> the localStorage situation is much worse IMHO
  188. # [01:47] <Hixie> the storage mutex?
  189. # [01:47] <sicking> yeah
  190. # [01:47] <sicking> it's teh suxxorz
  191. # [01:47] <Hixie> yeah that's pretty horrific too
  192. # [01:47] <Hixie> but i don't see a way around it
  193. # [01:47] <sicking> and the general way that invalid markup is handled
  194. # [01:47] <Hixie> with the <script> thing, just not supporting <script defer> (no src) seems like a solution that solves the problems that were found
  195. # [01:48] <sicking> you sure there are no external scripts with defer that does .write?
  196. # [01:48] <sicking> i would certainly expect there to be
  197. # [01:48] <Hixie> if there are, they're highly unreliable in IE
  198. # [01:48] <sicking> how so? a .innerHTML flushes them
  199. # [01:49] <Hixie> .innerHTML throws them out altogether if they're not loaded yet
  200. # [01:49] <sicking> not in my testing
  201. # [01:49] <Hixie> you didn't test well enough
  202. # [01:49] <Hixie> :-)
  203. # [01:49] <sicking> well, i can give a testcase where it doesn't throw them out. So seems your testing isn't good enough :)
  204. # [01:49] <sicking> though maybe it only works locally?
  205. # [01:50] <sicking> i can test
  206. # [01:50] <sicking> once i've tested this out-of-order thing
  207. # [01:50] <Hixie> make sure it's not cached
  208. # [01:51] <Hixie> file:// is sync in IE, i think
  209. # [01:51] <Hixie> i'm trying to find my tests
  210. # [01:51] <sicking> it's not sync, but it might change things i agree
  211. # [01:54] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/script-defer-write/
  212. # [01:55] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/script-defer-write/001.html in particular
  213. # [01:55] <sicking> why does http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/script-defer-write/fail.js give me an "internal error" page?
  214. # [01:55] <Hixie> cos i suck
  215. # [01:56] <sicking> as does reset.js
  216. # [01:56] <Hixie> try now
  217. # [01:56] <sicking> is there a delay on those?
  218. # [01:56] <Hixie> in IE, yes
  219. # [01:56] <Hixie> er
  220. # [01:56] <Hixie> yes
  221. # [01:57] <Hixie> every .js file in that directory takes 2 seconds to generate
  222. # [01:57] <Hixie> hm
  223. # [01:58] <Hixie> maybe my testing sucked
  224. # [01:58] <Hixie> no, it seems it was right
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  226. # [01:59] <sicking> i mean, i'd love to not have to do this double-EOF thing
  227. # [01:59] <Hixie> compare http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/script-defer-write/001.html to http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/script-defer-write/008.html
  228. # [01:59] <Hixie> IE throws away the script on 001
  229. # [01:59] <Hixie> and on 008 it wipes the document
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  231. # [02:00] <sicking> yup
  232. # [02:00] <sicking> hum hum
  233. # [02:00] <sicking> well, lets put it in the spec
  234. # [02:01] <sicking> we'll find out when we try to implement it
  235. # [02:01] <Hixie> just removing defer="" with no src="", you mean?
  236. # [02:01] <sicking> so the plan is to ignore the 'defer' attribute on inline scripts, right?
  237. # [02:01] <Hixie> yeah
  238. # [02:01] <sicking> sounds good
  239. # [02:01] <Hixie> ok
  240. # [02:02] <sicking> i'll just have to fight you on the DOM-inserted scripts execution order... for now
  241. # [02:02] <sicking> and no magic at all on innerHTML, right?
  242. # [02:02] <sicking> no nuking of pending defered scripts a'la IE
  243. # [02:02] <Hixie> right
  244. # [02:03] * sicking ponders
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  246. # [02:04] <sicking> lets just hope that people don't come to depend on the FF3.5 behavior
  247. # [02:04] <sicking> of .write working in deferred async scripts
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  250. # [02:09] <Hixie> ok, afk for a while. bbiab.
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  443. # [03:54] <Dashiva> The thread about <script /> reminds me of when Opera was implementing canvas support
  444. # [03:54] <Dashiva> Lots of the early canvas content was of course using <canvas />
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  491. # [07:41] <Hixie> ok
  492. # [07:41] <Hixie> i've sent in the registrations for the two WebSocket ports, the two WebSocket schemes, and the WebSocket HTTP Upgrade keyword.
  493. # [07:41] <Hixie> what's next.
  494. # [07:42] <Hixie> MIME types: text/html; application/xhtml+xml; text/cache-manifest; text/event-stream; application/microdata+json
  495. # [07:42] <Hixie> i wonder how we register those
  496. # [07:47] <othermaciej> hey Hixie
  497. # [07:47] <Hixie> looks like http://www.w3.org/2002/06/registering-mediatype.html is how i do it
  498. # [07:47] <Hixie> hey othermaciej
  499. # [07:47] <othermaciej> do you think anyone in that HyBi group (or whatever it's called) is going to try to interfere with the WebSocket protocol?
  500. # [07:48] <othermaciej> (asking since it's under active implementation for both Chrome and Safari)
  501. # [07:48] <Hixie> i can almost guarantee that someone will try, yes
  502. # [07:48] <sicking> Hixie, do application/file too while you're at it. No idea if that'll fly though
  503. # [07:48] <Hixie> it's also under active implementation for gecko
  504. # [07:48] <Hixie> sicking: noted
  505. # [07:48] <othermaciej> I'm wondering how solid the commitment to "rough consensus and running code" will be
  506. # [07:48] <sicking> Hixie, might be worth posting to the HTMLWG about that one. Seems to be more people there with opinion on mimetypes
  507. # [07:49] <othermaciej> maybe should make sure interested implementors are on the committe
  508. # [07:49] <sicking> Hixie, not sure if dataTransfer.types really qualify as mimetypes though
  509. # [07:50] <sicking> othermaciej, btw, our plan is to land it preffed off for now I think
  510. # [07:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: did you see the recent stuff about BWTP?
  511. # [07:50] <othermaciej> Hixie: I saw a big flood of email, but I could not tell what it was or if I needed to care about it
  512. # [07:50] <sicking> othermaciej, in order to gather feedback but still be prepared to change implementation in case spec changes
  513. # [07:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: there was a recent e-mail (today i think) asking for review of BWTP
  514. # [07:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: my opinion is that BWTP is orders of magnitude more complex than we're looking for
  515. # [07:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: but obviously if the browser vendors prefer it to the websocket approach, i'd be happy to just drop websockets in favour of BWTP
  516. # [07:52] <sicking> does it do multiplexit? It's the main feature i'm lacking from websocket
  517. # [07:52] <Hixie> yes
  518. # [07:52] <Hixie> http://bwtp.wikidot.com/main:rational
  519. # [07:52] <Hixie> http://bwtp.wikidot.com/main:proposal
  520. # [07:52] <othermaciej> sicking: we'll probably turn it on for testing on WebKit trunk, but I will suggest that maybe we should avoid anyone shipping it in production until the standards story is settled
  521. # [07:53] <Hixie> (i have no idea how it is proposed that BWTP work at the API level)
  522. # [07:53] <othermaciej> (though I think Safari and Chrome can still get away with shipping stuff without locking it in beyond changing, this API has little value til there is vendor consensus)
  523. # [07:53] <othermaciej> Hixie: I did just see the review request on whatwg@
  524. # [07:54] <othermaciej> Hixie: I guess now would be a really good time to review it since the WebKit implementation is at a fairly early stage, but we've prototyped enough to have a picture of how the WebSocket protocol would work and what the likely issues are
  525. # [07:54] <othermaciej> I also really need to give File API a close reading now that Arun has posted the new draft he suggested I should wait for
  526. # [07:54] <sicking> actually, my main-main concern is getting through proxies
  527. # [07:54] <othermaciej> sicking: WebSocket's proxy story is fine, afaict
  528. # [07:55] <othermaciej> sicking: you just use CONNECT, and that works even on port 80
  529. # [07:55] <sicking> othermaciej, apparently many proxies block CONNECT to non-443 ports
  530. # [07:55] <sicking> othermaciej, squid being one of them
  531. # [07:55] <othermaciej> sicking: Darin Fisher claimed otherwise to me
  532. # [07:55] <roc> I was told that by default Apache proxies block connect to ports other than 443
  533. # [07:55] <othermaciej> or rather, that he deployed a product depending on this (Google Web Accelerator) and it was not an issue in practice
  534. # [07:55] <othermaciej> but I have not done anything to verify for myself
  535. # [07:56] <roc> Darin Fisher deployed Google Web Accelerator?
  536. # [07:56] <othermaciej> well, he works for Google
  537. # [07:56] <othermaciej> and that's what he worked on before Chrome
  538. # [07:56] <othermaciej> is what I mean
  539. # [07:56] <roc> urm
  540. # [07:56] <Hixie> there's not much you can do other than fall back to encrypted WebSocket over TLS if there's a proxy futzing with the connection or blocking anything but port 443
  541. # [07:56] <othermaciej> and I don't even know if it was him personally
  542. # [07:57] <sicking> Hixie, technically you can probably do non-SSL to 443 as well
  543. # [07:57] <Hixie> sicking: yeah, indeed
  544. # [07:57] <othermaciej> anyway - I'm not sure if there is a good answer for non-443 if CONNECT won't fly
  545. # [07:57] <sicking> Hixie, but we might want to consider defaulting to 443 if this really is a problem
  546. # [07:57] <Hixie> in what sense?
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  548. # [07:58] <sicking> othermaciej, indeed. Only thing i can think of is to default to port 443
  549. # [07:58] <Hixie> surely you just use whatever port the author says to use
  550. # [07:58] <sicking> sure, but use 443 if no port was specified
  551. # [07:58] <othermaciej> non-SSL over 443 seems like a plausible way to avoid the problem for the non-SSL case I guess
  552. # [07:58] <Hixie> instead of 815?
  553. # [07:58] <sicking> right
  554. # [07:58] <othermaciej> I bet the IETF would have a cow over that
  555. # [07:58] <Hixie> the ietf would -- yeah exactly
  556. # [07:58] <sicking> yup :)
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  558. # [07:58] <sicking> we can do it on an API level maybe :)
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  560. # [07:59] <Hixie> i don't think it's a problem to have authors just throw :443 in there initially
  561. # [07:59] <Hixie> on the long run proxies will adapt
  562. # [07:59] <roc> personally I think it's ok to depend on TLS
  563. # [07:59] <Hixie> (very long run)
  564. # [07:59] <roc> I dunno, it looks like we'll *never* get HTTP pipelining to work
  565. # [07:59] * sicking would love to put more pressure on crappy proxies. To solve pipelineing as well
  566. # [07:59] <othermaciej> roc, sicking: I guess I should ask Darin F to give more details as to why he thought CONNECT over port 80 is fine, and how he reconciles that with the squid and apache default config
  567. # [08:00] <sicking> roc, fennec ships with pipelineing turned on by default
  568. # [08:00] * roc whistles
  569. # [08:00] <othermaciej> it's easier to get away with pipelining on mobile
  570. # [08:00] <roc> I guess that's a positive move, not because it proves pipelining works, but because it puts pressure on the proxy world
  571. # [08:01] <sicking> othermaciej, it'd be great to hear what darin has to say. cc me and jduell@mozilla.com, and roc if he wants to
  572. # [08:01] <othermaciej> because carrier proxies are more reliably (and testably!) sane than random intranet proxies
  573. # [08:01] <Hixie> cc me, too, if you send mail about websocket
  574. # [08:01] <sicking> othermaciej, and wfernandom2004@gmail.com since he's the one writing our impl
  575. # [08:02] <othermaciej> I'll Cc if I end up asking by email, or email results if I end up asking more directly
  576. # [08:02] <sicking> sounds great
  577. # [08:02] <sicking> roc, exactly
  578. # [08:02] <sicking> roc, apparently Operas approach is to simply try it, and when it fails re-do the GET
  579. # [08:02] <roc> I thought the problem was that we couldn't detect failure reliably
  580. # [08:03] <sicking> roc, which sounds to me like it's not *that* common that it fails given how bad re-doing GET could be
  581. # [08:03] <roc> gotta run
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  588. # [08:24] <hsivonen> othermaciej: relying on namespace-unaware APIs pretty much means it's less likely that browser engine developers would bother supporting RDFa natively, since it would need RDFa-specific hacks on thee c`++ side
  589. # [08:25] <hsivonen> seems like a bad idea to desin language features that are known to be unfriendly to browser-internal interfaces
  590. # [08:25] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I'm sure as heck not going to try to implement native RDFa using namespace-unaware DOM APIs in C++...
  591. # [08:25] <othermaciej> otoh there is not much demand right now for browser-native RDFa implementation in general
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  594. # [08:30] <othermaciej> Hixie: it looks a fair bit more complicated than WebSocket - hard to tell which of the extra fluff is genuinely beneficial
  595. # [08:33] <othermaciej> seems like nearly all of it could be done at the application level with WS, it is not clear how many of the features give serious benefit from native support in the protocol
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  597. # [08:39] <hsivonen> Hixie, sicking: just one HTML5 EOF needed. but the emptying of the parser's internal buffer doesn't automatically mean EOF
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  600. # [08:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think making script execution block on network sucks horribly compared to what I suggested about deferring EOF emission based on pending scripts
  601. # [08:41] <sicking> hsivonen, if we go with the gecko solution, you still need to send something through the tokenizer in order to get it to end the current token though, right?
  602. # [08:41] <sicking> hsivonen, i think a better solution is to remove support for defer on inline scripts though
  603. # [08:42] <sicking> hsivonen, if we do that then document.write might not be a problem any more
  604. # [08:42] <sicking> hsivonen, given how weirdly document.write in deferred external scripts work in IE
  605. # [08:45] <hsivonen> sicking: if there's a partial tag token, it gets killed anyway, but getting deferred EOF right when the off-the-main-thread tokenizer has a partial comment pending would suck
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  607. # [08:45] <hsivonen> yeah, removing defer on inline scripts makes sense
  608. # [08:45] <sicking> i might be able to get that landed tomorrow
  609. # [08:46] <sicking> if so we'd be able to get feedback on this in the 3.6 cycle
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  611. # [08:46] <hsivonen> great
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  613. # [08:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: I certainly don't want the tokenizer to process EOF more than once. I want to have the decision to push the EOF to the tokenizer in the IO driver
  614. # [08:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: that doesn't exist in the spec but that is highly useful
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  630. # [09:27] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/1997JulSep/0387.html
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  638. # [09:55] <Lachy> hsivonen, 1997-09-12 seems to be the date that summary first appeared in an HTML4 editor's draft. http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/9709/WD-html40-970912/struct/tables.html#h-12.1.1
  639. # [09:55] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/1997JulSep/0675.html
  640. # [09:57] <Lachy> but there appears to have been absolutely no public discussion of it
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  646. # [10:09] <Hixie> sicking: application/file is wrong, but i think we can probably just make the type be "files" or something like that (without a slash)
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  649. # [10:15] <hsivonen> Lachy: I was able to find no discussion at all.
  650. # [10:16] <Lachy> I couldn't either
  651. # [10:16] <hsivonen> which leaves 3 options: unminuted voice discussion, discussion on a WAI list that I didn't search or an editor putting it in without discussion
  652. # [10:17] <hsivonen> anyway, considering how little it was discussed on the record, the current attachment to it is rather disproportionate
  653. # [10:18] <hsivonen> of course, it's possible that the greatest hits get created by accident :-)
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  655. # [10:21] <Lachy> I'm sure it isn't the first time a feature was added to HTML4 without any discussion
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  658. # [10:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: seen https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=508075 ?
  659. # [10:28] <Hixie> i have now
  660. # [10:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: any opinion?
  661. # [10:29] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/199
  662. # [10:29] <Hixie> we're not doing reparsing.
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  665. # [10:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: hmm. indeed, that case suggests that WebKit reparses
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  667. # [10:32] <Hixie> wtf does "interoperability considerations" mean in a mime type registration
  668. # [10:32] <Hixie> should i put "implementors are encouraged to implement the damn spec exactly as written"?
  669. # [10:32] <hsivonen> hehe
  670. # [10:33] <hsivonen> surely there's an RFC defining the procedure?
  671. # [10:33] <Hixie> that would be http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4288.txt
  672. # [10:33] <Hixie> please point to the section of that RFC that defines wtf "interoperability considerations" are
  673. # [10:34] <Lachy> Hixie, why was the Storage interface changed to accept structured data instead of just DOMStrings?
  674. # [10:34] <Hixie> Lachy: to allow File objects to be stored
  675. # [10:34] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: See in 4.5
  676. # [10:34] <Hixie> gsnedders|work: what does that section mean?
  677. # [10:35] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: I guess problems with interoperability with the specification of current implementations?
  678. # [10:35] <Hixie> i have to list all the bugs?
  679. # [10:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: 4.5 implies the considerations are a list of known bugs
  680. # [10:35] <Hixie> if so, i think i can push out last call another year or two
  681. # [10:35] <Hixie> i could just link to the bugzillas
  682. # [10:35] <Lachy> Hixie, do you mean these objects? http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileUpload/publish/FileAPI.html
  683. # [10:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: Just link to bugzilla
  684. # [10:36] <Hixie> Lachy: yes
  685. # [10:36] <hsivonen> s
  686. # [10:37] <Hixie> t?
  687. # [10:37] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5577.txt is one of teh latest RFCs to be published with a media type registration
  688. # [10:38] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: Which does nothing like what was said above
  689. # [10:38] <Hixie> good times
  690. # [10:40] <Hixie> i'd like to point out that the MIME type registration procedures still haven't caught up with apple's UTI work
  691. # [10:43] <gsnedders|work> UTI?
  692. # [10:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=504941 is alarming and sad
  693. # [10:43] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@89.127.177.75) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  694. # [10:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: yup
  695. # [10:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: unsurprising, though
  696. # [10:44] <hsivonen> I wonder whose idea it was to add support for that case to IE or Netscape in the first place...
  697. # [10:44] <hsivonen> not that it matters anymore
  698. # [10:45] <gsnedders|work> I guess it's more likely Netscape or Mosaic
  699. # [10:46] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  700. # [10:46] <hsivonen> maybe I should go read the Netscape 5 HTML parser some time
  701. # [10:46] <hsivonen> I expect it to be rather ad hoc
  702. # [10:48] <hsivonen> does Acid3 exist as individual test cases?
  703. # [10:51] <hsivonen> what was the trick for seeing the Acid3 error console?
  704. # [10:51] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@gatea.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  705. # [10:53] <Hixie> click the A
  706. # [10:53] <Hixie> or shift click or something
  707. # [10:54] * Hixie blinks at the idea of writing a "security considerations" section for text/html
  708. # [10:55] <hsivonen> whoa. acid3 test #71 fails for an interesting reason: Test 71 failed: doc.open is not a function
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  711. # [10:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks. Is there a .zip for easily testing and editing Acid3 locally?
  712. # [10:58] <Hixie> try acid3.acidtests.org/acid3-2009-06-19.tar.gz
  713. # [10:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
  714. # [11:00] <hsivonen> wow. AFP doesn't pass Acid3
  715. # [11:00] <hsivonen> tar: support-a.png.404: Cannot hard link to `support-c.png': Operation not supported
  716. # [11:00] <Hixie> AFP?
  717. # [11:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: Apple Filing Protocol
  718. # [11:01] <Hixie> hah
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  721. # [11:02] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: Why are some of your old adhoc tests so evil? :P
  722. # [11:02] <MadAtWork> I'd say: "It's a dirty job but someone has to do it"
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  725. # [11:22] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: What version of OS X/AFP? Hard links are supported with Leopard as client and server, AFAIK
  726. # [11:23] * Quits: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  727. # [11:24] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#iana-considerations
  728. # [11:34] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: Leopard client. ReadyNAS server.
  729. # [11:35] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: I guess no server support, and I guess it uses something based on Netatalk, which doesn't support it
  730. # [11:35] <gsnedders|work> (Hardlinks are the reason TM requires a Leopard server for AFP)
  731. # [11:36] <Philip`> Why does it show the status annotation box for "#the-marquee-element-0" in the margin when I'm looking at #iana-considerations?
  732. # [11:36] <hsivonen> I wanted to use NFS, but the NFS mounts on Leopard die often and randomly
  733. # [11:38] <Philip`> Hixie: "Cache manifests begin with the US-ASCII string ..." - no they don't, they begin with a UTF-8 string
  734. # [11:39] <hsivonen> what does Change Controller mean?
  735. # [11:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: looks good
  736. # [11:40] <hsivonen> when a W3C document supercedes an RFC for registration, how does this appear on tools.ietf.org?
  737. # [11:41] <hsivonen> Do you also need to submit a short RFC that points to the W3C doc?
  738. # [11:42] * hsivonen isn't aware of the details of the IETF—W3C collaboration arrangement
  739. # [11:43] <Hixie> Philip`: "CACHE MANIFEST" is a US-ASCII string
  740. # [11:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: no idea about the answers to your questions
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  743. # [11:49] <Hixie> ok, i've filled in the remaining MIME type registration sections
  744. # [11:50] <MadAtWork> Hixie: will the october deadline be met
  745. # [11:50] <MadAtWork> ?
  746. # [11:51] <Hixie> by whom?
  747. # [11:51] <Philip`> Hixie: It seems unnecessarily confusing to talk about substrings in one character encoding in a document with a different character encoding
  748. # [11:51] <MadAtWork> You I guess.
  749. # [11:51] <Hixie> i am on track to get the spec ready for last call by october, yes.
  750. # [11:52] <MadAtWork> Sweet.
  751. # [11:52] <Hixie> Philip`: fixed
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  754. # [11:59] <Hixie> anyone (annevk2?) want to volunteer to register all the IANA encoding synonyms we've learnt about?
  755. # [11:59] <Hixie> i'm worried that i'll burn out if i have to push through any more of these registrations
  756. # [11:59] <Hixie> i'm already up to 9
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  758. # [12:08] <Hixie> nn
  759. # [12:08] <Hixie> (someone volunteer while i'm sleeping!)
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  795. # [15:49] <mwic> hey guys, i'm playing w/HTML 5 and my video tag works great on localhost, but on my (A2Hosting) public host it prompts download... where do I start?
  796. # [15:51] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@89.127.177.75)
  797. # [15:52] <hsivonen> mwic: check your server's mime type config for .ogg, .ogv and .oga
  798. # [15:52] <hsivonen> should be application/ogg, video/ogg and audio/ogg
  799. # [15:54] <mwic> well, this is a budget host; is that something i could likely edit in .htaccess? Or should i use a different (dedicated) machine for this?
  800. # [15:55] <hsivonen> mwic: .htaccess should be enough
  801. # [15:55] <rubys> look here for examples of AddType: http://search.cpan.org/~lds/Apache-MP3-4.00/MP3.pm
  802. # [15:56] <rubys> (use the mime types hsivonen suggested instead though)
  803. # [15:56] <hsivonen> AddType application/ogg ogg
  804. # [15:56] <hsivonen> AddType video/ogg ogv
  805. # [15:56] <hsivonen> AddType audio/ogg oga
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  807. # [15:57] <rubys> http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/?p=1159
  808. # [15:58] * hsivonen isn't a fan of ogv, oga and ogx
  809. # [15:58] <hsivonen> esp. when XiphQT still output .ogg instead of .ogv
  810. # [15:58] * rubys notes that Apple isn't a fan of ogg <ducks/>
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  812. # [16:00] <annevk2> rubys, they're looking into it it seems
  813. # [16:00] <annevk2> Hixie, maybe when I feel better :/
  814. # [16:00] <hsivonen> what container and audio does Flash accept for VP6 video?
  815. # [16:00] <rubys> you have new news on this? That would be most excellent!
  816. # [16:01] <annevk2> rubys, did you see the emails from Maciej to the theora list?
  817. # [16:01] <annevk2> that's what I meant
  818. # [16:01] <rubys> no
  819. # [16:01] <rubys> url?
  820. # [16:01] <annevk2> hmm
  821. # [16:02] <rubys> http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/theora/2009-July/002415.html ?
  822. # [16:02] <annevk2> yeah
  823. # [16:03] <rubys> I'm also intrigued by http://www.betanews.com/article/Future-of-open-Web-video-may-change-with-Google-acquisition-of-On2/1249481107
  824. # [16:03] <hsivonen> flv and MP3?
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  826. # [16:04] <annevk2> rubys, I think everyone is, too bad there will be no details until Q4
  827. # [16:04] * annevk2 goes back to doing nothing
  828. # [16:05] * hsivonen can think of 3 reasons for Google acquiring On2
  829. # [16:05] * gsnedders|work was asked whether annevk2 was around at the moment
  830. # [16:05] <gsnedders|work> earlier
  831. # [16:05] * gsnedders|work guesses the answer is yes, then :P
  832. # [16:05] <mwic> :( hsivonen i added those lines and no improvement
  833. # [16:06] <rubys> is the url on your host public?
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  835. # [16:06] <gsnedders|work> "if the first letter is in fact a digit" — surely that never applies, as it isn't the first letter if it's a digit!
  836. # [16:07] * rubys points at the topic
  837. # [16:07] <mwic> rubys, if you mean me yes, and as it turns out the public one works
  838. # [16:08] <mwic> http://thislandok.twoclick.org/
  839. # [16:08] <gsnedders|work> rubys: CSS doesn't claim to be illogical though
  840. # [16:09] <mwic> i was using a /etc/hosts entry to access the same site, and it still fails there.. wonder why
  841. # [16:09] <hsivonen> mwic: works for me in Minefield
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  843. # [16:09] <hsivonen> mwic: maybe you fixed the problem but have the old versions cached
  844. # [16:10] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  845. # [16:10] <hsivonen> mwic: updating the mime types doesn't properly update cache controls in apache
  846. # [16:10] <hsivonen> that is, if the resources are cacheable and you change the server config, apache behaves as if the resources didn't change
  847. # [16:10] <mwic> hm
  848. # [16:10] <hsivonen> s/resources/resource representations/
  849. # [16:12] <mwic> yep, looks like cached junk.. accessing on a different machine worked great
  850. # [16:12] <mwic> thxmuch
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  870. # [18:15] <Lachy> http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/08/webgl-standard-to-bring-3d-web-without-browser-plugins.ars
  871. # [18:16] <Philip`> Old news :-p
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  873. # [18:17] <Lachy> it's only a day old, and I didn't notice it yesterday
  874. # [18:19] <Philip`> http://www.khronos.org/news/press/releases/khronos-webgl-initiative-hardware-accelerated-3d-graphics-internet/ - three days
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  878. # [18:37] <Lachy> did you really know about it 3 days ago though?
  879. # [18:38] <Philip`> Yes
  880. # [18:38] <MadAtWork> Prove it.
  881. # [18:38] <MadAtWork> (Sorry, couldn't resist a pathos dense situation)
  882. # [18:39] <Lachy> MadAtWork, what is a pathos dense situation?
  883. # [18:39] <Philip`> Actually four - http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090803#l-872
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  887. # [18:58] <MadAtWork> One with a large amount of pathos in a small space?
  888. # [18:58] <Philip`> It could equally well be a small amount of pathos in a tiny space
  889. # [18:59] <MadAtWork> Yes. Or a gargantuan amount of pathos in a very large space.
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  892. # [19:11] <Dashiva> This one made me smile: "The big difference is that for the web you only have 2 strings while TCP/IP has an infinite number of 16 bit integers."
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  939. # [20:55] <ezyang> I think something's fishy with the infinite loop fix.
  940. # [20:56] <ezyang> Namely, "in select" insertion mode, "If the stack of open elements does not have an element in table scope with the same tag name as the token, ignore the token."
  941. # [20:56] <ezyang> Shouldn't that be checking for a "select" in table context?
  942. # [20:57] <ezyang> Actually, I'm not sure what to think
  943. # [20:57] <ezyang> At the very least, <input> is an input element, so it should never be "in scope"
  944. # [20:59] <ezyang> s/input element/empty element/
  945. # [21:01] <ezyang> Also, I generally see the "If the stack of open elements does not have an element in table scope with the same tag name as the token" talisman when a close tag is encountered...
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  948. # [21:11] * abarth is now known as abarth|lunch
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  951. # [21:23] <Hixie> ezyang: yeah gsnedders|work already sent a mail saying it was buggy
  952. # [21:23] <ezyang> savvy
  953. # [21:23] <ezyang> I think the fix might be just to replace "current token" with "select"
  954. # [21:24] <Hixie> i'll look at it when i get to his e-mail
  955. # [21:24] <Hixie> probably a week or so
  956. # [21:24] <ezyang> :-)
  957. # [21:27] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@201.169.34.95.customer.cdi.no)
  958. # [21:27] <virtuelv> Hixie: yt?
  959. # [21:27] <Hixie> yes
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  961. # [21:27] <virtuelv> I've got a question re http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/mixed/lineheight3.html
  962. # [21:28] <virtuelv> the first test pattern actually has grey lines between glyphs in all browsers I've tested in
  963. # [21:28] <virtuelv> is the correct rendering dependent on having anti-aliasing disabled, or are these genuine bugs?
  964. # [21:29] <Hixie> it's a very minor bug with the antialiasing code
  965. # [21:29] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@89.127.177.74)
  966. # [21:30] <virtuelv> how?
  967. # [21:30] <virtuelv> (Enforcing anti-aliasing to happenn in some specific way, on a subpixel level is dangerous, patent-wise, fwiw)
  968. # [21:30] <Hixie> how what?
  969. # [21:31] <virtuelv> I'm wondering how one can consider different anti-aliasing in different implementations to be a bug
  970. # [21:31] <Hixie> that's not what i'm considering a bug
  971. # [21:32] <Hixie> the bug is that if you have two exactly square glyphs exactly aligned horizontally and vertically with no space between them, you shouldn't see a seam
  972. # [21:32] <Hixie> that you don't see a seam horizontally but do see a seam vertically is a bug
  973. # [21:32] <Hixie> a very minor one
  974. # [21:32] <Hixie> but a bug nonetheless
  975. # [21:33] <virtuelv> ah
  976. # [21:33] <virtuelv> either way, when viewing the actual tests, browsers have far worse problems, I see
  977. # [21:34] <Hixie> yeah
  978. # [21:34] <Hixie> dunno how accurate that test is anymore
  979. # [21:34] <Hixie> i wasn't expecting to see errors
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  982. # [21:39] <virtuelv> Yeah. I was just loading some random page to check if Ahem had been correctly installed
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  987. # [22:06] <Hixie> o_O at larry's e-mail
  988. # [22:07] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.246.18.83)
  989. # [22:09] <Philip`> Clearly you're discriminating against people who don't have an email address
  990. # [22:09] <Hixie> actually those are discriminated against because of my policy of only being willing to pay for working group members
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  992. # [22:09] <Lachy> what the hell? Would anyone seriously Hixie to be so unapproachable that sending him a private mail is simply out of the question?
  993. # [22:10] <Hixie> (since you have to have an e-mail address to join)
  994. # [22:10] <Lachy> s/seriously/seriously consider/
  995. # [22:10] <Lachy> Philip`, Google has a postal address, I'm sure they'd accept snail mail :-)
  996. # [22:11] <Hixie> tis true
  997. # [22:11] <Hixie> c/o Ian Hickson; Google, Inc.; 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway; Mountain View 94043 CA; USA
  998. # [22:11] * Lachy wonders if anyone has sent or will ever send HTML5 feedback by snail mail?
  999. # [22:12] <Philip`> Print a copy of the spec, highlight all the errors in red pen, then mail it to Hixie
  1000. # [22:12] <Hixie> that's probably what microsoft'll do
  1001. # [22:12] <Hixie> they like to print specs out
  1002. # [22:12] <Dashiva> Don't forget to take a picture on a wooden table and scan it and stuff
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  1005. # [22:15] <Hixie> aw, sicking, i'm touched
  1006. # [22:15] <Hixie> thanks for the support :-)
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  1010. # [22:25] <Dashiva> public-html is just teeming with good spirits and cooperation
  1011. # [22:25] <Dashiva> enough to make even hardened veterans misty-eyed
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  1013. # [22:34] <Hixie> right, lunch
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  1018. # [22:43] <syp_> Hixie: hi, does the spec mentions if classList should work on non-HTML nodes?
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  1036. # [23:31] <Xanthir> Say I wanted to hack full support for, say, <input type=date> into a page via js. A non-supporting browser treats that to <input type=text>. Is there any way for me to stop this, or at least recognize that it was originally type=date?
  1037. # [23:31] <Lachy> Hixie, looks like Microsoft did choose to send e-mail instead of snail mail after all. :-)
  1038. # [23:35] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@nat/mozilla/x-rpllcecorrtzgops)
  1039. # [23:36] <Philip`> Xanthir: Use getAttribute('type') to access the original DOM attribute value, perhaps?
  1040. # [23:36] <Xanthir> Hmm, lemme try that. (Sorry, I pretty much avoided JS before jQuery, and so am mostly clueless when it comes to actually using the DOM APIs as written.)
  1041. # [23:37] <gsnedders> DOM--
  1042. # [23:39] <Xanthir> Ooh, yes, that works well.
  1043. # [23:40] <Xanthir> Now, next question. I know getters and setters are part of some level of ecma. Are they usable in any browser?
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  1045. # [23:41] <Xanthir> Nm - Resig answers this for me.
  1046. # [23:41] <Xanthir> Answer: all latest browsers except IE.
  1047. # [23:42] <gsnedders> IE8 supports them
  1048. # [23:43] <Xanthir> Excellent. That blog post was a bit old.
  1049. # [23:43] <Xanthir> That means I can write in proper support for the new inputs.
  1050. # [23:44] <Hixie> syp_: it's only defined on HTML nodes; what happens on non-HTML nodes isn't in HTML's purview
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  1053. # [23:44] <Philip`> Xanthir: A script that implements HTML5 feature support in old non-supporting browsers would probably be much more useful if it supported IEs older than IE8
  1054. # [23:45] <Xanthir> Oh, indeed, but I can write a lesser form of support for those. Without setters I simply can't implement the html5 spec properly.
  1055. # [23:45] <Xanthir> Also: this is for fun. There's already a webforms2 library around, though I have no idea how good it is.
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  1057. # [23:47] <Philip`> (I suppose there's also the issue that even if everyone used IE8, a large majority of pages will be processed with the IE7 engine instead)
  1058. # [23:48] <Xanthir> True, but if you're using html5 features, you're probably going to make sure your page is read as ie8 as well as you can.
  1059. # [23:48] * cying is now known as AppleConspiracy
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  1061. # [23:49] * AppleConspiracy is now known as cying
  1062. # [23:49] <Philip`> I guess most people will be completely unaware of it, and will try using <input type=date> and a workaround script and it will fail and they'll have no idea why
  1063. # [23:50] <Philip`> until someone tells them to change their doctype, and maybe unpress the compatibility button, and maybe remove themselves from the blacklist, and maybe fix their HTTP headers and meta elements
  1064. # [23:50] <Xanthir> Well, it'll fail in that they can't play with the value properly. It'll still produce a datepicker and submit properly.
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  1068. # Session Close: Sat Aug 08 00:00:00 2009

The end :)