/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-08-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Aug 16 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:25] <Hixie> great, now i've been dragged into this nonsense debate
  7. # [00:29] <aboodman_mac> Does anyone know with access control what is supposed to happen if you request a cross-origin resource which redirects to a same origin resource, and there is no access control involved?
  8. # [00:29] <aboodman_mac> It looks to me like it should succeed.
  9. # [00:30] <aboodman_mac> I mean via XMLHttpRequest
  10. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Sounds like it should work. The final resource being delivered is same-origin, and so as long as that information is passed along properly it should be ok.
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  13. # [00:55] <Dashiva> Neat, JF answered my question. A bit strange to get the answer to an IRC question on email, but it works. :)
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  15. # [01:04] <JonathanNeal> Hello all!
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  17. # [01:05] <JonathanNeal> I'm a little confused about the proper usage of the "section" and "article" elements. Should either be used as a child of the other, or does it not matter? I see this @ http://www.alistapart.com/d/previewofhtml5/structure-div.gif and then this @ http://media2.smashingmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/images/html5/html5_structure.png
  18. # [01:06] <JonathanNeal> I meant to reference http://www.alistapart.com/d/previewofhtml5/structure-html5.gif from ala.
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  20. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> Either can be used as a child of the other, as appropriate. In many instances, though, <section> will be a child of <article>.
  21. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> Because in many cases <article> will be used to denote the main content of a page.
  22. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> But you can, frex, have something like <article #pagecontent><section .pagesection><article .blogpost><section .sectionofblogpost>...
  23. # [01:18] <JonathanNeal> Taking from w3.org (if that's allowed here), they write "The section element is not a generic container element. When an element is needed for styling purposes or as a convenience for scripting, authors are encouraged to use the div element instead." This is important for me to understand, because I may be upgrading the html of portlets within a portal, so I'm wondering if the portlet as an application should use div'
  24. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Smashing's use is perfectly appropriate, though, if they're only getting down to the actual *article* after having some extra data before/after it.
  25. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Probably should.
  26. # [01:19] <JonathanNeal> Right now I have <div class="portlet"><div class="portlet-topper"><div class="portlet-title">Blog Application</div><div class="portlet-content"><!-- blog application --!></div></div>
  27. # [01:20] <webben_> JonathanNeal: I think looking at the editor's draft portlet should probably use section not div.
  28. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> Rule is: if something should appear in an outline of the page, use <section>/<article>. If it shouldn't, use <div>
  29. # [01:20] <webben_> JonathanNeal: "The section element represents a generic document or application section. A section, in this context, is a thematic grouping of content, typically with a heading, possibly with a footer. Examples of sections would be chapters, the various tabbed pages in a tabbed dialog box, or the numbered sections of a thesis. A Web site's home page could be split into sections for an introduction, news items, contact information."
  30. # [01:20] <webben_> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/semantics.html#the-section-element
  31. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> I'll note that your use of a <div> for the *title* is worrying already.
  32. # [01:21] <webben_> JonathanNeal: So a portal site is split into sections, some of those sections are applications.
  33. # [01:21] <JonathanNeal> Sure, that's how it's been, because portlet's can optionally remove their topper, title,
  34. # [01:22] <JonathanNeal> For instance, the web content display portlet is often configured to skip right into the portlet's content, which is why I was wondering if the html should remain div based, because it has more to do with the structure of the page, but I can also see how it's thematically grouping content.
  35. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> Just use the "outline" rule. You don't have to quibble about semantics then. If you collapse the whole page into an outline, and your bit should show up, use the <section>.
  36. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> So, it's probably the case that the outermost div should be a <section>. The others are probably good as <div>s.
  37. # [01:24] <webben_> JonathanNeal: I guess I'd suggest <section class="portlet"><header><h1>Blog Application</h1></header><!-- content --></section>
  38. # [01:24] <JonathanNeal> Would you then say that <div class="portlet-topper"> could be <header> and <div class="portlet-title"> could be <h1>. From what I've read, sections are recommended to begin new header deliniating.
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  40. # [01:25] <JonathanNeal> Sure, I need to wrap that content so there you would recommend using a DIV? I really appreciate your input on all of this, by the way, all of you.
  41. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> I agree with webben_
  42. # [01:26] <webben_> JonathanNeal: Assuming you need it to be the same for all portlets, can't think of anything else than div off-hand.
  43. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> And yeah, probably just wrap the content with a div. Again, just mentally apply the outline rule.
  44. # [01:27] <JonathanNeal> All right, let me make a pastie of what I've gathered so far from what you've said.
  45. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> But if you can determine that some portlets *are* important enough to do so, consider an <article> or <section> to wrap it instead.
  46. # [01:31] <JonathanNeal> http://pastie.org/585342
  47. # [01:31] <JonathanNeal> The first one labeled "HTML4" is actually what we've been using for some time, I never liked the spans being there alongside the divs.
  48. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> Yes, except you can probably drop most of the classes.
  49. # [01:33] <TabAtkins> Keep the .portlet class, but the others can be targetted just fine with child selectors. ^_^
  50. # [01:33] <TabAtkins> ".portlet > header", ".portlet > header > h1", etc.
  51. # [01:34] <webben_> JonathanNeal: I suspect that may be a menu not a nav: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-nav-element vs. http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#menus ?
  52. # [01:34] <JonathanNeal> Well, we walk the fine corporate line of trying to move towards html5 but keep ie6 compatibility.
  53. # [01:34] <webben_> JonathanNeal: depending on what the contents are.
  54. # [01:34] <JonathanNeal> Right now, most of that can be achieved through CSS, and JS using document.createElement function.
  55. # [01:34] <JonathanNeal> Child selectors aren't available in ie6, unfortunately.
  56. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> Bah, right. I am lucky enough to have been allowed to basically throw IE6 over the bridge at my job.
  57. # [01:35] <webben_> JonathanNeal: How are you selling migration to 5 to the biz?
  58. # [01:35] <JonathanNeal> webben_ by the grace of God.
  59. # [01:35] <webben_> heh
  60. # [01:35] <JonathanNeal> I have no idea how, but they like it.
  61. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> It looks fancy!
  62. # [01:36] <JonathanNeal> They're letting me style our new website using CSS3 almost exclusively, as long as the unCSS3'd ie browsers look good and consistant.
  63. # [01:36] <JonathanNeal> They don't mind letting the new browsers take on the added improvements.
  64. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> Woo, lucky you.
  65. # [01:37] <webben_> JonathanNeal: e.g. rounded corners with CSS3 and square corners for the old?
  66. # [01:37] <JonathanNeal> Exactly.
  67. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> I'm happy I got them to accept the rounded corners issue. That's about it.
  68. # [01:37] <webben_> yeah, rounded corners is about as far as we've got where I work.
  69. # [01:37] <JonathanNeal> Well, ie6+ supports gradients, so IE actually gets the gradients too.
  70. # [01:37] <JonathanNeal> Firefox is the tricky one, I have to calculate the colors for the gradients by using the inset shadow property.
  71. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> Hmm? How are you getting gradienets in ie6?
  72. # [01:38] <webben_> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms532997(VS.85).aspx ?
  73. # [01:38] <JonathanNeal> We have browser selectors out of the box and ie supports gradients using the filter property.
  74. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> Ah, k. I stay away from the filter properties.
  75. # [01:39] <JonathanNeal> Me too, but the end effect let's me get away with a lot without introducing images to the design where they weren't necessary.
  76. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> So far I've dealt with it by using a gradient-generating image script in PHP.
  77. # [01:40] <JonathanNeal> The really, really great thing about this is, if I can convince them to move forward with some of the html5 adoptions in our portal, then our clients will take those html5 adoptions with them too.
  78. # [01:42] <JonathanNeal> Which is why using proper standards is so absolutely important to me.
  79. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> Cool. ^_^
  80. # [01:43] <webben_> JonathanNeal: "inset shadow property": like this? http://markusstange.wordpress.com/ ?
  81. # [01:44] <JonathanNeal> It seems pretty straightforward, so http://pastie.org/585351
  82. # [01:45] <JonathanNeal> I think I'm in good graces because I wrote this ( http://tiny.cc/JTlyy and http://tiny.cc/KyH4B ) a day after someone asked if we could support mobile
  83. # [01:45] <webben_> JonathanNeal: class="portlet seamless" would make more sense to me. ... it's still a portlet, even if it's borderless
  84. # [01:46] <webben_> or class="portlet portlet-seamless" if .portlet.seamless is going to cause a world of ie6-inflected pain.
  85. # [01:46] <JonathanNeal> ie6 has limited support of css chaining but I'm aware of how most of it needs to work.
  86. # [01:46] <JonathanNeal> yea, adding the portlet class to them both makes sense, webben_
  87. # [01:47] <webben_> if it is seamless, tho, why do you need a div inside the seamless section?
  88. # [01:47] <TabAtkins> Ooh, shiny: http://tests.themasta.com/blogstuff/boxshadowselect.html
  89. # [01:47] <webben_> TabAtkins: Is that shiny for Fx?
  90. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  91. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> It's all -moz-box-shadow
  92. # [01:48] <webben_> very nice
  93. # [01:48] <JonathanNeal> Our shiny is shiny in ie6+, firefox, and safari
  94. # [01:48] <JonathanNeal> which includes any other trident / gecko / webkit browsers, obviously.
  95. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> Sure, just put -webkit-box-shadow, and some IE filters on it.
  96. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> Definitely reproducible.
  97. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> Note: I didn't make that. It's from the blog that webben_ linked to.
  98. # [01:49] <webben_> I guess one could use SVG data URIs for extra-http-request-less gradients in opera
  99. # [01:50] <TabAtkins> Man, that's *two* technologies I don't know how to use.
  100. # [01:51] <JonathanNeal> We used -moz-box-shadow as the secondary solution to -webkit-gradient and Microsoft.Gradient
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  102. # [01:51] <JonathanNeal> For example @ http://pastie.org/585353
  103. # [01:54] <TabAtkins> Ah, cool, php can help write data uris for me.
  104. # [01:55] <JonathanNeal> So now I have http://pastie.org/585355
  105. # [01:55] <TabAtkins> I approve.
  106. # [01:56] <webben_> Tick! ;)
  107. # [01:57] <webben_> JonathanNeal: altho note my note about menu
  108. # [01:57] <JonathanNeal> Okay, the next big beast to tackle of the portal's page container.
  109. # [01:58] <JonathanNeal> I thought menu was gone in HTML5.
  110. # [01:58] <webben_> still here afaik
  111. # [01:58] <JonathanNeal> So, when would it be proper to use nav versus menu and vice versa?
  112. # [01:59] <webben_> nav = site links ; menu = commands
  113. # [02:00] <webben_> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/semantics.html#the-nav-element vs http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/interactive-elements.html#menus
  114. # [02:00] <webben_> "control panel" sounds to me like commands/toolbar
  115. # [02:00] <webben_> so menu
  116. # [02:01] <TabAtkins> Hmm, I didn't realize that <menu> was meant to be used for in-page markup. Cool.
  117. # [02:01] <webben_> other lists of links ... ul or ol I guess.
  118. # [02:01] <TabAtkins> btw: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/#menus for the multipage version
  119. # [02:02] <JonathanNeal> I see what you mean.
  120. # [02:02] <TabAtkins> I need to really read and digest that section soon.
  121. # [02:03] <TabAtkins> For now: grocery store, to prepare for tomorrow's grilling party.
  122. # [02:04] <JonathanNeal> Why seamless versus borderless-container
  123. # [02:04] <JonathanNeal> because of the meaning?
  124. # [02:06] <webben_> i guess various reasons
  125. # [02:06] <webben_> shorter, more abstract
  126. # [02:07] <webben_> "container" seems redundant
  127. # [02:07] <webben_> it's a section so... it's going to be a container
  128. # [02:07] * Parts: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
  129. # [02:08] <webben_> JonathanNeal: also http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-0.html#attr-iframe-seamless
  130. # [02:12] <JonathanNeal> I see.
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  134. # [02:13] <JonathanNeal> Great, I'm writing all of this up.
  135. # [02:13] <JonathanNeal> Thanks webben_
  136. # [02:14] <webben_> JonathanNeal: yw :)
  137. # [02:17] <JonathanNeal> All right, here's the tougher one.
  138. # [02:18] <JonathanNeal> Any number of portlets can exist in here @ http://pastie.org/585373
  139. # [02:20] <JonathanNeal> I'm curious if a section would replace wrapper, a header would replace banner, an h2 would replace current-community and be moved outside of the h1, both the h1 and the h2 would be wrapped with an hgroup, and a footer would replace footer.
  140. # [02:24] * webben_ is too sleepy to think, but I'm sure one of the other #whatwg will answer eventually (if not just mail the help@ mailing list: http://www.whatwg.org/mailing-list#help )
  141. # [02:28] <JonathanNeal> Should a <nav> ever go inside a <nav> for child pages?
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  145. # [02:47] <JonathanNeal> I'm getting all crazy with this one.
  146. # [02:47] <JonathanNeal> You guys will have to tell me what you think. It's perhaps incorrect.
  147. # [02:49] <JonathanNeal> Here's my latest working copy @ http://pastie.org/585387
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  150. # [03:27] <JonathanNeal> Anyone around?
  151. # [03:34] <jcranmer> no
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  153. # [03:37] <JonathanNeal> I figured as much :-)
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  186. # [06:42] <JonathanNeal> hi all
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  220. # [10:45] <annevk42> aboodman2, aboodman_mac_, answered your question
  221. # [10:45] * aboodman_mac_ is now known as aboodman_mac
  222. # [10:45] <aboodman_mac> annevk42: thanks for replying
  223. # [10:45] <aboodman_mac> looking now
  224. # [10:47] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  225. # [10:49] <aboodman_mac> annevk42: ok, thanks. I am working on this area of webkit now, and want to be sure I don't break anything.
  226. # [10:55] * Philip` wonders how much cardboard he needs to stick underneath his laptop's system board to bend it enough that it will successfully boot
  227. # [10:58] <hsivonen> hmm. http://www.fsf.org/resources/formats/playogg tells people to install VLC which expands the installed base of encumbered codecs, too
  228. # [10:58] <hsivonen> they could tell people to install Firefox, which wouldn't expand the installed base for encumbered-format players
  229. # [11:05] * Quits: Hixie (i=ianh@trivini.no) ("updating config...")
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  235. # [12:37] <annevk42> note to self: make a simple python script instead to generate encoding tests rather than cp 001.htm 00x.htm all the time
  236. # [12:57] <krijnh> http://code.google.com/p/sessionstorage/
  237. # [12:59] * Joins: svl_ (n=me@f051119032.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  238. # [13:26] <Philip`> Hmm, ten thicknesses of card under the PCMCIA slot seems to be sufficient
  239. # [13:36] <Dashiva> You probably even enjoy making it work
  240. # [13:41] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@201.169.34.95.customer.cdi.no) ("Ex-Chat")
  241. # [13:42] <Philip`> I only had to take out 30 screws to reach it
  242. # [13:42] <Philip`> and I put 29 screws back in, which I consider a success
  243. # [13:44] <Hixie> wow, i've got less than 3 days backlog on my main folder of input
  244. # [13:45] <Dashiva> If you run out, you might have to start answering questions when asked.
  245. # [13:45] <Hixie> lots of XXX markers to worry about still
  246. # [13:45] <Hixie> and bugs
  247. # [13:46] <Hixie> (i don't like replying in realtime, i much prefer letting threads settle, since that way i can just look over the whole thread and use the best ideas.)
  248. # [13:46] <Hixie> anywya it's way past my bed time
  249. # [13:46] <Hixie> nn
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  263. # [16:16] <hsivonen> wow. the StuffIt Expander download has become like downloading Real Player
  264. # [16:16] <hsivonen> and worse
  265. # [16:16] <hsivonen> very tacky
  266. # [16:18] * hsivonen archives a old PPC 2005 version of StuffIt Expander and refrains from downloading the new version
  267. # [16:23] * gsnedders has an old 68k version somewhere
  268. # [16:27] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@123.225.27.189)
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  271. # [16:41] <hsivonen> I got tired of .zip files getting assigned to StuffIt Expander, which launches Rosetta
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  273. # [17:05] <Lachy> hsivonen, couldn't you just change the default application for .zip files, without having to remove StuffIt Expander?
  274. # [17:06] <Lachy> Select any zip file, change the default app and click Change All...
  275. # [17:06] <hsivonen> Lachy: apparently not
  276. # [17:07] <Lachy> (I know it's made slightly complicated by the stupidity of Macs sometimes relying on invisible metadata for choosing default apps)
  277. # [17:07] <hsivonen> Lachy: I've gone through the usual steps in both Finder and Firefox
  278. # [17:08] <hsivonen> Lachy: but there's something somewhere that makes Firefox write the HFS creator code for StuffIt expander onto zip files
  279. # [17:08] <hsivonen> or so I suspect
  280. # [17:09] <hsivonen> could be some very, very legacy setting migrated a dozen times somewhere in the bowels of Carbon in the parts that came from Internet Config
  281. # [17:09] <hsivonen> or something like that
  282. # [17:09] <Lachy> yeah, that's what it's called. The way the creator code is used has to be one of the most annoying design flaws I dislike about macs
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  304. # [21:25] * hsivonen wonders what the messages sent, replies gotten stats divided by time on the list would look like now
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  340. # Session Close: Mon Aug 17 00:00:00 2009

The end :)