/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-08-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 21 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Man, that sucks.
  4. # [00:01] <JonathanNeal> Hey TabAtkins, how are you doin'?
  5. # [00:01] <JonathanNeal> Don't let it get'cha down! :-D
  6. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> Doing good, JonathanNeal.
  7. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> Rewriting part of an intranet CMS because it's sucky and hard to navigate now that we have a lot of items in it.
  8. # [00:03] <JonathanNeal> Oh that's no fun, just rewriting the frontend or the backend or both?
  9. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> Just the front-end. That back-end is just fine. A touch crufty, but not enough to worry about.
  10. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> And it is fun! I get to stretch my information architect muscles. ^_^
  11. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> Also, now, fixing a bug that I just discovered in my permissions manager.
  12. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> Damn namespaces.
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  15. # [00:15] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, most of the chatty folks here seem to be devs of one kind or another, that include you?
  16. # [00:16] <JonathanNeal> of w3 or whatwg, I mean.
  17. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Nah, I'm just webmaster for my company, and general webdev on the side.
  18. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> I don't do any work on browsers or anything like that.
  19. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> But I do like participating in the evolution of the languages that I use.
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  23. # [00:25] <annevk2> hsivonen, http://bugzilla.validator.nu/ is broken
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  26. # [00:36] <nessy> midnight there ....
  27. # [00:37] <annevk2> same timezone then :)
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  49. # [01:33] <othermaciej> is there a reliable standard way to tell if a document is an HTML document or an XML document
  50. # [01:33] <othermaciej> ?
  51. # [01:34] <Lachy> othermaciej, with javascript?
  52. # [01:36] <Lachy> I've done that before. There's a technique that involves something like (document.createElement("html").tagName == "HTML") returns true for HTML, false for XHTML
  53. # [01:36] <othermaciej> Lachy: I was hoping for something more elegant (and more importantly more efficient)
  54. # [01:37] <Lachy> this is another function I've used before:
  55. # [01:37] <Lachy> var isHTML = (function() {
  56. # [01:37] <Lachy> var htmlElement = document.getElementsByTagName("html").item(0);
  57. # [01:37] <Lachy> if (htmlElement) {
  58. # [01:37] <Lachy> return (htmlElement.tagName == "HTML");
  59. # [01:37] <Lachy> } else {
  60. # [01:37] <Lachy> return false;
  61. # [01:37] <Lachy> }
  62. # [01:37] <Lachy> })();
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  64. # [01:39] <Dashiva> document.documentElement.tagName == 'HTML'
  65. # [01:40] <Dashiva> Shouldn't that do the job?
  66. # [01:40] <Lachy> Dashiva, yeah
  67. # [01:40] * jwalden_ marvels at the complexities being proposed as an alternative to websocket
  68. # [01:40] * jwalden_ is now known as jwalden
  69. # [01:40] <Lachy> I think there was a reason I did the more complicated method, but I can't remember what it was
  70. # [01:40] <Rik`_> Dashiva: XHTML documents would return true ?
  71. # [01:41] <Lachy> Rik`_, no because it's a case sensitive comparison
  72. # [01:41] <othermaciej> Lachy: I'll see if making a local variable is viable - I'm not sure, because I think the code in question is processing nodes from other documents
  73. # [01:41] <Rik`_> Lachy: ok, I can create a document with HTML as the root node
  74. # [01:42] <Lachy> Rik`_, oh, yeah, that was the reason. By doing getElementsByTagName("html"); it ensures that no <HTML> elements in XML would be returned
  75. # [01:43] <Lachy> but the shorthand that Dashiva used would be reliable enough for most cases
  76. # [01:43] <Dashiva> Ah, right
  77. # [01:44] <Dashiva> You never know what some crazed XML user might decide to do
  78. # [01:44] <Dashiva> But I'd then prefer maciej's way, I think
  79. # [01:44] <Dashiva> document.createElement('html').tagName == 'HTML'
  80. # [01:44] <Lachy> that was also mine!
  81. # [01:44] <Dashiva> Oh
  82. # [01:44] <Dashiva> Right
  83. # [01:45] <Dashiva> You win again!
  84. # [01:45] <Lachy> but it's less efficient since it needs to create a whole new element
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  86. # [01:45] <Lachy> in fact, the code above isn't very efficient either since it has to invoke a function
  87. # [01:45] <Dashiva> That seems like an exceedingly premature optimization, given that it's done once per page
  88. # [01:47] <Lachy> yeah, I settled with the function since it was designed to execute only once, so the efficiency problem wasn't too bad
  89. # [01:47] <heycam> othermaciej, how about: var isHTML = true; try { document.write('') } catch (e) { isHTML = false; }
  90. # [01:47] <Lachy> there were a whole lot more less efficient things in that old script
  91. # [01:47] <othermaciej> heycam: HTML5 will allow document.write in XML documents, also that will erase the document
  92. # [01:48] <heycam> won't work if the document's finished parsing i suppose
  93. # [01:48] <heycam> yeah
  94. # [01:48] <heycam> othermaciej, oh will it?
  95. # [01:48] <heycam> but not currently right
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  97. # [01:48] <othermaciej> if the document has finished parsing, document.write() will implicitly document.open()
  98. # [01:49] <heycam> "oh will it?" => will html5 allow document.write in XML documents?
  99. # [01:49] <Lachy> The document.write(...) method must act as follows:
  100. # [01:49] <Lachy> 1.
  101. # [01:49] <Lachy> If the method was invoked on an XML document, throw an INVALID_ACCESS_ERR exception and abort these steps.
  102. # [01:49] <heycam> wonder how easy that is to do with a standard sax parser
  103. # [01:49] <Lachy> so, no. document.write() cannot be used in XML
  104. # [01:50] <othermaciej> Lachy: ah, I thought it was going to be allowed
  105. # [01:50] <othermaciej> I must be confused or out of date
  106. # [01:50] <Dashiva> innerHTML and friends will, though
  107. # [01:50] <Lachy> othermaciej, you're out of date. There was a time it was considered, but it turned out to be unworkable
  108. # [01:51] <Lachy> which is good, IMHO. document.write() needs to die
  109. # [01:51] <heycam> Lachy, we should replace it with document.ungetc() instead :)
  110. # [01:52] <Lachy> brilliant! Just what we need, more functions that mess directly with the input stream
  111. # [01:53] <othermaciej> if we're going to expose all the wonders of stdio, we can't forget gets()
  112. # [01:54] <heycam> heh yes that's a must
  113. # [01:54] <Lachy> let's just let authors write their own javascript based parsers that can handle the whole input stream themselves
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  192. # [06:11] <othermaciej> good evening everyone
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  203. # [06:40] <othermaciej> so what's the deal with http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/48 (quotes and <q>)?
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  210. # [07:09] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: did that not got resolved by the spec changing to say that UAs should generate quotation marks for <q> ?
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  212. # [07:10] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: yes, it did
  213. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> it seems like that issue can be closed
  214. # [07:11] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: yes, I'm going to propose that
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  217. # [07:19] <othermaciej> I'm not sure what the status on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/63 is
  218. # [07:20] <othermaciej> I guess it's not complete
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  224. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I think issue 63 can be closed out as being no longer an issue for the HTML5 spec itself.
  225. # [07:30] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: the HTML5 spec currently specifically says to send an Origin header and what its exact contents should be - it doesn't defer to Adam Barth's draft afaict
  226. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I seem to remember that the HTML5 spec sorta defined the contents of the Origin header inline
  227. # [07:32] * MikeSmith goes to look
  228. # [07:32] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: yes, I think maybe it still does
  229. # [07:32] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I think Hixie plans to update it for the Sec-From draft or something
  230. # [07:32] <othermaciej> anyway, it's not a gimme like the others I'm gonna suggest
  231. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> yeah, maybe not
  232. # [07:34] <Hixie> for Origin/Sec-From I'm waiting for instructions from abarth
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  235. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> as far as that goes, it seems to me that since the HTTPbis WG and others at IETF have made it clear that it's not welcome at the IETF, the most viable option remaining seems to be spec'ing it in the WebApps WG
  236. # [07:39] <othermaciej> did they object to Sec-From?
  237. # [07:39] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@user-64-9-237-60.googlewifi.com)
  238. # [07:40] <othermaciej> I know they didn't like Origin
  239. # [07:40] <othermaciej> anyway
  240. # [07:43] * Quits: ap (n=ap@c-24-130-131-182.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  241. # [07:44] <othermaciej> I am about to suggest closing the following (one per email, yay): http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/48 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/51 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/53 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/56
  242. # [07:45] <othermaciej> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/60 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/61 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/64 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/66 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/75
  243. # [07:50] * Joins: JonathanNeal (n=Jonathan@76-219-69-134.lightspeed.breaca.sbcglobal.net)
  244. # [07:50] <JonathanNeal> Hi all!
  245. # [07:50] <othermaciej> hi
  246. # [07:51] <JonathanNeal> How are you doing, othermaciej?
  247. # [07:52] <othermaciej> JonathanNeal: not bad
  248. # [07:52] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  249. # [07:52] <othermaciej> just sent another round of proposed issue closures
  250. # [07:52] <JonathanNeal> Are you another developer, or another type-of html5 spec writer?
  251. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I don't know if there was ever any discussion about sec-from with the HTTP Wg or IETF
  252. # [07:53] <JonathanNeal> Cool, I admit, I'm very new to html5 elements, aria, all the new stuff, which is why I'm hanging around here, hoping to learn and get feedback as I figure it out (hopefully).
  253. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: but I would expect it would meet pretty much the same reception
  254. # [07:53] <othermaciej> JonathanNeal: I'm a browser engine developer (on WebKit), and W3C HTML WG self-appointed petty bureaucrat
  255. # [07:54] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: one complaint about Origin was that it just replicated Referer, but Sec-From carries more information
  256. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah, but another complaint was the whole "CSRF is not a problem for the Web" thing, so it's very hard to imagine getting support for them if they can't even agree about the importance of the problem that it's meant to address
  257. # [07:56] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: anyway, I agree we will have to go forum shopping if the HTTPbis WG is not enthusiastic about it
  258. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> yeah
  259. # [07:56] <JonathanNeal> othermaciej, that's awesome. I'm a lacky developer for Liferay who got a voice in moving our new site and a lot of our core product (which is a web-based portal) to the HTML5 doctype. I'm hoping to make it much more than just a doctype change, but to take advantage of some of the new elements and recommended semantics.
  260. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: is Liferay the opposite of a death ray?
  261. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> (I bet you get asked that question a lot)
  262. # [08:00] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith, yes, actually, we are the opposite of a Deathray.
  263. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: excellent. you guys should commission a sci-fi movie where a mad scientist builds a liferay instead of a deathray.
  264. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> except I guess it would have to then be a perfectly-sane scientist building it
  265. # [08:03] <JonathanNeal> Don't let the wikipedia entry fool you. We may specialize in professional open-source portals, but that's just a front for our giant Liferay, intended to create entire planets!
  266. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> heh
  267. # [08:05] <annevk2> MikeSmith, i'll make the draft ready for pub on monday, just so you know
  268. # [08:06] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@user-64-9-237-60.googlewifi.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  269. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> annevk2: yeah, I assumed you were on top of it already
  270. # [08:06] <JonathanNeal> Then we will shot the draft with our Liferay, and that's what we call "adoption"
  271. # [08:07] <annevk2> MikeSmith, I'm going MIA for a few days :)
  272. # [08:07] <JonathanNeal> annevk2, you work on the html5 document?
  273. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> annevk2: oh, OK. I hope it's something fun
  274. # [08:07] * Joins: annevk3 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
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  277. # [08:12] <MikeSmith> can somebody remind me how to get web-apps-tracker to show more revisions than just what it shows by default?
  278. # [08:13] <JonathanNeal> May I ask, MikeSmith, what is a web-apps-tracker?
  279. # [08:13] * Joins: aboodman_ (n=aboodman@98.210.196.233)
  280. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
  281. # [08:14] <annevk2> MikeSmith, should be :)
  282. # [08:14] <annevk2> JonathanNeal, not really, I edit html5-diff
  283. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'm befuddled as to why some revisions don't have the Validators flag set
  284. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=3626&to=3627
  285. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> "Drop cite= from <section> and <article>"
  286. # [08:17] <Hixie> the annotations are about 80% accurate
  287. # [08:17] * aboodman_ is now known as aboodman2
  288. # [08:17] <Hixie> i often write the commit messages without paying much attention
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  290. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> Hixie: OK, that's less befuddling
  291. # [08:18] <Hixie> here's some irony
  292. # [08:18] <Hixie> i recently discovered that a bunch of my whatwg mail has been caught in my spam filters
  293. # [08:18] <Hixie> it's almost all mail from googlers...
  294. # [08:18] <Hixie> (and gmail is my spam filter)
  295. # [08:19] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith, okay I get it, it helps you track the progress of html5?
  296. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: yeah
  297. # [08:19] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-67-164-14-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  298. # [08:19] <annevk2> Hixie, presumably goog spams a lot :)
  299. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> Hixie: sounds like it's time you considered another mail provider
  300. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> maybe hotmail
  301. # [08:20] <annevk2> Hixie, the job hunter email from google also carried "THIS IS NOT SPAM" or some such in the subject line...
  302. # [08:21] <annevk2> (not sure job hunter is the right word here, oh well, I should leave)
  303. # [08:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: what's up with http://bugzilla.validator.nu/ ?
  304. # [08:22] <JonathanNeal> What's the difference between bugzilla validator and html5 validator?
  305. # [08:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: hmm. looks like some Ubuntu unsmoothness
  306. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I wanted to file a bug for http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7265
  307. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> plus some other stuff
  308. # [08:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, I'll put my sysadmin hat on right now
  309. # [08:24] <hsivonen> sorry about the trouble
  310. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> thanks
  311. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> no problem man. I know you got a lot on your plate
  312. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: one is a bug-tracking system for the validator, and the other is the actual validator
  313. # [08:28] <hsivonen> so, I have a backup of the bug database. no problem there
  314. # [08:28] <hsivonen> but the Ubuntu packages have managed to break the Bugzilla cgis
  315. # [08:29] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith, okay I get it. And that validator always says valid html5 + aria something, does that have to do with the new role attributes, for accessibility?
  316. # [08:29] <hsivonen> JonathanNeal: yes
  317. # [08:30] <hsivonen> JonathanNeal: it says "HTML5 + ARIA" as opposed to just "HTML5", because the HTML5 spec doesn't quite yet import ARIA officially
  318. # [08:30] <Hixie> i'm actually working on that right now
  319. # [08:33] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@user-64-9-237-60.googlewifi.com)
  320. # [08:36] <JonathanNeal> The role IDs as attributes themselves seem pretty backwards compatible with IE, from what I saw in the docs, am I right?
  321. # [08:36] <hsivonen> JonathanNeal: in the sense that they are gracefully ignored by old IE, yes
  322. # [08:37] <hsivonen> JonathanNeal: the aria-foo properties hit the ariaFoo bug in IE < 8, IIRC
  323. # [08:38] <hsivonen> JonathanNeal: also, due to selector limitations in old IE, you can't trigger styles on states and properties the way envisioned
  324. # [08:38] <hsivonen> huh. Ubuntu has uninstalled the bugzilla package!
  325. # [08:38] * Joins: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  326. # [08:38] <JonathanNeal> Not without some js hacks, but when it comes to those tags, are they intended to be read by old ie, or the accessibility reader?
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  329. # [08:39] <hsivonen> argh. packages.ubuntu.com is down
  330. # [08:39] <hsivonen> grr
  331. # [08:42] <hsivonen> hmm. there's a separate bugzilla3 package now
  332. # [08:42] <hsivonen> I wonder if it can pick up the DB
  333. # [08:43] * Quits: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Client Quit)
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  335. # [08:44] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to know if the Right Thing happens if I have config files for package 'bugzilla' in place and install package 'bugzilla3'?
  336. # [08:44] <hsivonen> maybe I should just stick to the ancient version...
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  340. # [08:52] <Hixie> Lachy: yt?
  341. # [08:52] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-35-123.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  345. # [09:08] <JonathanNeal> I've been using <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=utf-8" />, but someone said it could be shorter. When I tried the shorter one that they gave me, it failed validation. Do you guys know anything about this?
  346. # [09:08] * Joins: foolip (n=philip@h-63-95.A163.priv.bahnhof.se)
  347. # [09:08] <hsivonen> <meta charset="utf-8"> should validate. does it not?
  348. # [09:09] <JonathanNeal> I'll try it right now.
  349. # [09:10] <JonathanNeal> hsivonen, thanks that worked!
  350. # [09:11] * Joins: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  351. # [09:11] <JonathanNeal> It gave me a warning about it though, it said "No Character Encoding Found! Falling back to UTF-8."
  352. # [09:11] <hsivonen> JonathanNeal: which validator?
  353. # [09:12] <foolip> Has anyone managed to use the spec annotation system in Gnome? Alt+double left click is supposed to be the shortcut, but alt+left click drags the window...
  354. # [09:12] <JonathanNeal> validator.w3.org, does that make me bad?
  355. # [09:12] <hsivonen> JonathanNeal: validator.w3.org has a bit legacy Perl layer between your stuff and the HTML5 validator
  356. # [09:12] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@user-64-9-237-60.googlewifi.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  358. # [09:12] <hsivonen> JonathanNeal: what you are seeing is the Perl layer being HTML5-unaware
  359. # [09:13] <hsivonen> JonathanNeal: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5992
  360. # [09:14] <JonathanNeal> And how long does something like that usually take to get ammended or fixed?
  361. # [09:14] <hsivonen> JonathanNeal: unpredictable
  362. # [09:15] <hsivonen> JonathanNeal: MikeSmith would have better guesses
  363. # [09:15] <JonathanNeal> I liked what someone just wrote in another channel: "The nice thing about the web is you can use technologies that aren't standard yet, and the chances of future browsers breaking it is the same as if they were standardized."
  364. # [09:17] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-62-130.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  365. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: the maintainer of the Perl layer of the W3C validator has a fix in the works for the issue
  366. # [09:19] <JonathanNeal> So MikeSmith, did I already ask what you do too?
  367. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> maybe
  368. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> I couple people have reported that problem
  369. # [09:20] <JonathanNeal> Well, if neither of us remember for certain, what is it that you do then?
  370. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> I made a patch for it but my patch just makes the Perl layer completely skip doing any encoding check for HTML5 documents
  371. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: what is it that I do?
  372. # [09:23] <JonathanNeal> Yea, like "I work on the html5 project", or for whatwg, or you know, you tell me.
  373. # [09:24] <JonathanNeal> For instance, I make the thing that stops the Deathray.
  374. # [09:25] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@dan75-7-88-166-184-59.fbx.proxad.net)
  375. # [09:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what was the problem with your patch? failing with UTF-16?
  376. # [09:26] <othermaciej> betting pool: will the HTML WG issue tracker have more than 30 issues 2 weeks from now, or fewer?
  377. # [09:28] <JonathanNeal> According to google, you might write the html5 markup language. Hmm, see that's fun.
  378. # [09:29] <hsivonen> oh joy. It seems bugzilla doesn't upgrade its database schema automatically: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/
  379. # [09:29] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  380. # [09:29] * Quits: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@98.210.196.233)
  381. # [09:31] <hsivonen> it's alive! (but CSS-naked)
  382. # [09:33] <JonathanNeal> Well, anyway, sorry if I offended you.
  383. # [09:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: bugzilla is back. thanks for the heads-up
  384. # [09:39] * Joins: drry (n=drry@ct91.opt2.point.ne.jp)
  385. # [09:42] * Quits: foolip (n=philip@h-63-95.A163.priv.bahnhof.se) ("Ex-Chat")
  386. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no problem with my patch except that it worked around the problem by having the perl layer not do any encoding check at all for HTML5 docs. But Ville told me he has a fix in the works for the perl layer such that it actually parses <meta charset="foo"> as expected
  387. # [09:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I see
  388. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: big thanks for fixing the bugzilla
  389. # [09:45] * MikeSmith prepares to embark on a bug-filing frenzy
  390. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: UI looks fancier
  391. # [09:46] <othermaciej> Hixie: I don't look forward to having to encourage Larry to update IRIbis
  392. # [09:46] <othermaciej> (maybe Sam can do that)
  393. # [09:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Ubuntu pulled the 'bugzilla' package. this is 'bugzilla3'
  394. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> ah
  395. # [09:47] <hsivonen> would have been nice of them to have some apt hook automate the upgrade...
  396. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> I'm surprised it doesn't
  397. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: my official title is "Special Missions Subsection Junior Interim Floor Manager"
  398. # [09:48] <Hixie> othermaciej: well until he does, i'm pointing to danc's doc, and if that doesn't progress either, i'm stuffing it all back into html5.
  399. # [09:49] <othermaciej> Hixie: I don't personally have a problem with that
  400. # [09:49] <hsivonen> I'm surprised Micah Dubinko's Distributed Extensibility proposal hasn't made it to public-html
  401. # [09:50] <othermaciej> Hixie: do you remember what the subject line may have been on your last comments to Larry? I'm having trouble finding the email
  402. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: did Micah respond yet to your xml-dev message?
  403. # [09:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no
  404. # [09:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I got warnocked
  405. # [09:50] <hsivonen> and the whole thread died there
  406. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> I think Micah was away at the Balisage conference
  407. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> along with other XML folk
  408. # [09:51] <hsivonen> Balisage ended on Aug 14
  409. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> well, I chat with Micah sometimes. So I'll bug him about it
  410. # [09:52] * hsivonen assumes the proceedings of Balisage are in English
  411. # [09:54] <Hixie> othermaciej: http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.LNX.4.62.0907281952410.3189@hixie.dreamhostps.com
  412. # [09:55] <othermaciej> Hixie: thanks!
  413. # [09:56] <Hixie> there's a couple of other issues that have come up, too
  414. # [09:56] <Hixie> it seems the \ handling was dropped in larry's draft
  415. # [09:57] <Hixie> and we need to make sure that IRIs can be absolute URLs (right now the algorithm as defined makes only ASCII strings "absolute")
  416. # [09:59] <othermaciej> I think the latter of those is in your email
  417. # [09:59] <othermaciej> I don't remember if \ was
  418. # [09:59] <othermaciej> do you have emails for any other issues that have come up? I'm composing a nag email to Larry.
  419. # [10:00] <othermaciej> hsivonen: is it appropriate to obsolete a full media type registration in favor of a provisional registration?
  420. # [10:00] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I would think that's only appropriate once HTML5's registration becomes a final registration, which I believe happens at the PR transition or something like that
  421. # [10:01] <hsivonen> othermaciej: right, but if we need a one-sentence RFC at that time, it might be a good idea to put it on whatever IETF track it needs to be on as a draft
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  423. # [10:02] <othermaciej> hsivonen: makes sense to me - I don't know how these things work
  424. # [10:02] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  425. # [10:03] <othermaciej> hsivonen: apparently an RFC can be declared "Historic" without there being a superseding RFC: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2026.txt
  426. # [10:03] <othermaciej> (section 4.2.4)
  427. # [10:03] * Joins: vvv (n=vvv@mediawiki/VasilievVV)
  428. # [10:03] <hsivonen> othermaciej: ok. I guess that solves the problem
  429. # [10:04] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  430. # [10:04] <othermaciej> hsivonen: 6.4 describes the procedure - it requires an IESG action apparently
  431. # [10:07] * Joins: foolip (n=philip@pat.se.opera.com)
  432. # [10:09] <othermaciej> Hixie: I sent a nag note to Larry - feel free to follow up linking emails with other critical feedback, or if you point me to them I can do so
  433. # [10:18] <othermaciej> Hixie: would some term like "HTML URL" be acceptable, to disambiguate from the standard-official flavor of URL? (I agree URI/IRI/LEIRI are full of fail and confusion)
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  435. # [10:22] <Hixie> othermaciej: there's nothing HTML-specific about these
  436. # [10:22] <othermaciej> Hixie: I could suggest "Web URL" but I am not sure that would make anyone happy
  437. # [10:23] <Hixie> i'm not saying "bla bla Web URL" every time i need to refer to a URL
  438. # [10:24] <Hixie> these "URLs" have the same relationship to the URI/IRI specs as HTML5 does to HTML4
  439. # [10:24] <othermaciej> hopefully few enough people care about this that the terminology issue can just go away
  440. # [10:24] <Hixie> they're not some sort of browser thing or whatever
  441. # [10:24] <Hixie> hopefully
  442. # [10:24] <Hixie> anyway, bed time
  443. # [10:24] <Hixie> nn
  444. # [10:24] <othermaciej> good night!
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  448. # [10:38] <othermaciej> I'm off to bed myself, goodnight folks
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  450. # [10:41] <hsivonen> http://camp.woothemes.com/2009/08/29-designers-developers-have-their-say-on-html5-css3/ is interesting
  451. # [10:41] <hsivonen> I'm surprised how much they like the new structural elements
  452. # [10:42] <hsivonen> Despite the dislike on ALA
  453. # [10:43] <jgraham> hsivonen: It doesn't seem that surprising (ALA notwithstanding). They are people who work at the markup level a lot. Things that help make their markup more understandable/easier to maintain have tangible benefits for them
  454. # [10:44] <jgraham> Not to mention the "Now with Extra Semantic Goodness (TM)" factor
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  458. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> jgraham: please take a look at http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/status.html and let me know if that's what you had in mind
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  461. # [11:11] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I don't see any change...
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  465. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I think you might to to force-reload to bypass your cache
  466. # [11:34] * jgraham tries the gambit of switching browser
  467. # [11:35] <jgraham> Oh yeah, that looks perfect
  468. # [11:35] <jgraham> Thanks!
  469. # [11:38] <jgraham> (does it work for anyone else in Opera? Maybe we have an xslt bug...)
  470. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I think I had the same problem with it in other browsers
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  473. # [11:53] <Lachy> the code readability improvements with the new structural elements was one of the many reasons we went with those, instead of using <div role="..."> for everthing. It's good to see we were right about that.
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  487. # [13:17] <foolip> does anyone have a good resource or test cases for how xmlns:prefix is handled in text/html?
  488. # [13:18] <foolip> am I correct to assume that it doesn't affect rendering but only some subtleties about the namespace in which that attribute ends up in?
  489. # [13:18] <hsivonen> foolip: there are some demos in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/
  490. # [13:18] <hsivonen> foolip: look for "xmlns"
  491. # [13:19] <hsivonen> foolip: it doesn't affect anything outside SVG and MathML subtrees
  492. # [13:19] <hsivonen> foolip: xmlns:link is special in SVG and MathML subtrees
  493. # [13:20] <hsivonen> but otherwise, xmlns:prefix becomes a no-namespace attribute with local name "xmlns:prefix" and that's it
  494. # [13:20] <foolip> doesn't sound like a serious issue
  495. # [13:20] <hsivonen> foolip: issue for what?
  496. # [13:21] <foolip> so from a scripts point of view the only difference is getAttribute("xmlns:prefix") or getAttributeNS("http://that/xmlns/namespace", "xmlns:prefix") depending on text/html or application/xhtml+xml namespace?
  497. # [13:21] <hsivonen> foolip: no.
  498. # [13:22] <hsivonen> if you use stuff like lookupNamespaceURI, xmlns:prefix attributes in text/html don't participate
  499. # [13:22] <hsivonen> but in application/xhtml+xml they do
  500. # [13:23] <hsivonen> basically, in text/html xmlns:prefix is garbage and isn't senstive to anything that http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace attributes are sensitive to
  501. # [13:23] <hsivonen> furthermore, no-namespace attribute with colons in them can't be serialized as XML
  502. # [13:24] <foolip> ah, so for text/html you'd have to traverse parent nodes looking for "xmlns:*" attributes and emulate the behavior?
  503. # [13:24] <hsivonen> foolip: yes
  504. # [13:25] <hsivonen> basically, you can't use any DOM Level 2 or Level 3 features consistently across text/html and application/xhtml+xml with xmlns:prefix
  505. # [13:25] <foolip> can a script know if it's in XML DOM or HTML DOM?
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  508. # [13:25] <hsivonen> foolip: yes
  509. # [13:26] <hsivonen> foolip: createElement("div").tagName == "DIV"
  510. # [13:26] <foolip> as you might guess, this is all in relation to RDFa and I'm trying to understand precisely what the problems are beyond "namespace don't work"
  511. # [13:26] <hsivonen> I guessed
  512. # [13:26] <foolip> ah right, that would work
  513. # [13:26] <hsivonen> foolip: the party line at the RDF-in-XHTML-TF is that you should only use DOM Level 1 when dealing with RDFa
  514. # [13:27] <foolip> hsivonen: but getAttribute("xmlns:prefix") wouldn't work in XML would it?
  515. # [13:27] <hsivonen> which isn't a great way to sweep the issue under the rug in browser-internal APIs that are more like Level 2
  516. # [13:27] <foolip> the attribute itself isn't in the null namespace?
  517. # [13:27] <hsivonen> foolip: IIRC, it does in browser impls
  518. # [13:28] <foolip> hmm, I never quite understood the gory details of getAttribute/getAttributeNS, need to experiment
  519. # [13:28] <foolip> gsnedders, you mentioned that IE does wonky with : in attribute names, do you have any more information on this?
  520. # [13:29] <foolip> +things
  521. # [13:29] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like I don't have a demo for getAttribute in XHTML
  522. # [13:30] <hsivonen> foolip: anyway, this is an "here be dragons" area, and it's a terrible idea that RDFa went poking at it
  523. # [13:31] <gsnedders|work> foolip: It's specifically xmlns:* it's whacky on. Dunno much more detail myself.
  524. # [13:31] <foolip> right, but I'm trying to get a more precise understanding about the nature of these dragons
  525. # [13:31] <jgraham> Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
  526. # [13:32] <hsivonen> foolip: remember to test getAttibute with parser-inserted attributes, setAttribute-inserted and setAttributeNS-inserted
  527. # [13:33] <hsivonen> I guess setAttributeNode, too if you want really evil tests
  528. # [13:40] <foolip> hsivonen: thanks for the tips, it'll be a fun weekend with this :)
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  530. # [13:55] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if I've sent spec feedback about document.written charset meta
  531. # [14:03] <hsivonen> hmm. bugzilla.validator.nu switched from English to German...
  532. # [14:05] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: are you using a browser that broadcasts German as the preferred language?
  533. # [14:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: nope
  534. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> though I think I have my Minefield set to Japanese as preferred
  535. # [14:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. then it's picking it from your browser
  536. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> hmm, that's weird
  537. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> it's not showing me anything in German
  538. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> nor Japanese
  539. # [14:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it seems it thinks that "Site Default" email language is now German
  540. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> hmm, maybe it's picking it up from my KDE environment
  541. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> some secret KDE feature to promote the German language more widely
  542. # [14:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I fixed it
  543. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> OK
  544. # [14:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think it was because de sorts to the top of the list in de, en, fr
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  546. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> ah
  547. # [14:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oops. look like I omitted a "not" when I meant to say it is not picking the default from your browser
  548. # [14:09] <hsivonen> sorry
  549. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> and I was looking forward to learning German by using bugzilla
  550. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> so much for that plan..
  551. # [14:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: you can still tweak personal prefs!
  552. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> OK, in that case I think I'll choose to use it to learn Finnish instead
  553. # [14:13] <hsivonen> sorry, only de, en, fr available
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  556. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: where's v.nu checking the format of the <time> element? in the htmlparser and xmlparser code?
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  558. # [14:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: attribute is in datatype lib
  559. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> yeah, I knew the attribute was
  560. # [14:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: element content is under non-schema somewhere implemented as a SAX holder for a datatype
  561. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> OK
  562. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so, as far I can tell, it doesn't allow any element content, e.g., <time><i>2008</i></time> -- it only allows character data.
  563. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> right?
  564. # [14:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: hmm. that's not how I read the spec back when I implemented checking
  565. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> maybe the spec changed since
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  567. # [14:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: if <time><i>2008</i></time> weren't allowed, the holder thing would be unnecessary
  568. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> well, the spec currently says that it's the textContent of the element
  569. # [14:41] <MikeSmith> erp
  570. # [14:41] <MikeSmith> maybe my mistake
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  572. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> damn
  573. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: sorry for the noise
  574. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> my mistake
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  584. # [15:31] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: I guess you know that HTML 5 parser sometimes gives adjacent text nodes?
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  586. # [15:32] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: by design based on Philip`'s spec feedback, right?
  587. # [15:33] <hsivonen> looks like the xmlns:prefix discussion triggered a flurry of tweets...
  588. # [15:33] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/shelleypowers
  589. # [15:33] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: Uh, no idea
  590. # [15:36] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: <b>Test</i>Test should still give one text node, no?
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  592. # [15:37] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  593. # [15:37] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: why?
  594. # [15:37] * Quits: ccklaus (n=chatzill@pc154-c716.uibk.ac.at) (Remote closed the connection)
  595. # [15:37] <gsnedders|work> (Or am I missing which feedback you meant?)
  596. # [15:38] <hsivonen> hmm. that one might be a bug per spec
  597. # [15:38] <gsnedders|work> That is a bug per spec, as there is no node inserted by the parser between those two character tokens
  598. # [15:39] <gsnedders|work> FWIW: http://gsnedders.html5.org/html5lib-tests/runner.html
  599. # [15:40] <gsnedders|work> (Which works more cross-browser than http://html5.org/parsing-tests/testrunner.htm for me)
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  606. # [15:48] <zcorpan> <audio style=display:inline>hello</audio>
  607. # [15:49] <zcorpan> maybe audio should be display:none !important in the ua style sheet (like noscript)?
  608. # [15:50] <zcorpan> audio:not([controls]) that is
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  618. # [16:13] <zcorpan> what's the use case for createImageData(imagedata) again?
  619. # [16:13] <zcorpan> afaict it's just convenience for createImageData(imagedata.width, imagedata.height)
  620. # [16:14] <foolip> with some added confusion (hey this might a copy constructor!)
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  624. # [16:25] <TabAtkins> I wonder if these are the sorts of rules that make the guys building CSS engines wince for their performance:
  625. # [16:25] <TabAtkins> #faqs-by-section input.lang-chooser.en-US:checked ~ dl ul.entries > li:not(.en-us)
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  627. # [16:29] <zcorpan> could have been worse; at least you used a child selector
  628. # [16:32] <TabAtkins> True.
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  640. # [16:56] <jgraham> So there are rumors of a document containg all the IDL from all web specs. Does anyone know where it is? Or is there some other way of finding out a comprehensive list of all objects that should implement a given interface
  641. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> I think I asked about this before, but I'll ask again - I got a request for a German-speaking presenter to speak at an event in Berlin on September 14
  642. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> presentation about HTML5
  643. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> any recommendations?
  644. # [17:04] <gsnedders|work> Coincidently, I may happen to be in Berlin then. I do not, however, speak German. (Nor, for that matter, am I any good at presenting in any language.)
  645. # [17:04] <myakura> I got a request, too. On Oct 29 in Tokyo, though.
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  647. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> gsnedders|work: just wing it
  648. # [17:06] <gsnedders|work> MikeSmith: No
  649. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> you can learn german by setting your bugzilla locale preferences to "de"
  650. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> it's that simple
  651. # [17:06] <TabAtkins> I have it on good authority that if you just sound like a monster screaming into a staticky walkietalkie while underwater, German people will understand you.
  652. # [17:07] <jgraham> That's Danish
  653. # [17:08] * jgraham wonders if WebIDL will be updated to use ES5 terminology
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  661. # [17:08] <TabAtkins> Interesting.
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  668. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> if you ever get a chance to hear a Norwegian person imitating a Danish person, I recommend grabbing that chance
  669. # [17:09] <TabAtkins> Hehe, k.
  670. # [17:12] <Dashiva> Why wait?
  671. # [17:12] <Dashiva> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk
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  676. # [17:17] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: hahaha
  677. # [17:17] <jcranmer> knowing neither Danish nor Norwegian
  678. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> myakura: what is the October event?
  679. # [17:17] <jcranmer> I can honestly say that what I got out of it was "Norwegians poking fun at Danes"
  680. # [17:17] <TabAtkins> I also got "people over there talk funny".
  681. # [17:18] <myakura> @MikeSmith: the one in Ginza, CSS Nite
  682. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> ah
  683. # [17:18] <TabAtkins> But I said it to myself in a thick Texan drawl, so I don't think I really get much from that.
  684. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> myakura: so you going to do it?
  685. # [17:20] <Philip`> jgraham: You can't disturb me much when I'm not actually looking at IRC for 23 hours
  686. # [17:20] <jgraham> Philip`: I could hunt you down and disturb you
  687. # [17:21] <jgraham> I just chose not to
  688. # [17:21] <jcranmer> I guess a good US analogue is Southerners poking fun at Harvard graduates
  689. # [17:21] <Philip`> jgraham: I guess there's some buffering and you'd need to flush it, perhaps by closing the thingy, or something, I don't know really
  690. # [17:21] <jcranmer> "I go to Hahvahd, so I can't say an ah'
  691. # [17:21] * Philip` goes away again
  692. # [17:21] <myakura> MikeSmith: yeah
  693. # [17:21] * gsnedders|work wonders where away is, in case he needs to track Philip`down
  694. # [17:21] <Philip`> Oh, if paul_irish reads IRC logs then he should probably email comments to me
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  696. # [17:22] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Spain
  697. # [17:22] <gsnedders|work> Dammit, jgraham was right!
  698. # [17:22] <gsnedders|work> (I have secret communication channels with jgraham, obviously.)
  699. # [17:23] <TabAtkins> jcranmer: Yeah, that's probably right.
  700. # [17:23] <jgraham> jcranmer: It seems quite common in scandinavia to be bemused by Danish pronounciation. It seems like it is actually quite odd and not _just_ people taking the piss for other people taking differntley
  701. # [17:23] <TabAtkins> jcranmer: Though we like making fun of people from Minnesota more. They talk *really* funny.
  702. # [17:23] <jcranmer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hahvahd... that actually redirects to Harvard
  703. # [17:23] <jgraham> e.g. apparently the language is changing so fast that you can identify when expats left denmark from their voice alone
  704. # [17:24] <TabAtkins> jcranmer: *awesome*
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  706. # [17:24] * pmuellr_ is now known as pmuellr
  707. # [17:25] <jcranmer> the biggest thing I know about those people is that they call soda "pop"
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  709. # [17:26] <TabAtkins> They have an "ae"/"ah" swap somewhat ("I'll get a baeg of bahgels"), and stretch their "o" into a long "oo". "I'm from Minnesooota."
  710. # [17:27] <TabAtkins> I spent a few weeks touring Europe with a group of minnesotans. Much hilarity ensued.
  711. # [17:27] <TabAtkins> Unfortunately for them I'm from Houston, which homogenizes my accent into basically American Standard with a touch of drawl.
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  730. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> anybody having trouble now getting the whatwg version of the spec to load
  731. # [18:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes.
  732. # [18:20] <hsivonen> did Acid3 get slashdotted again or something?
  733. # [18:23] <Dashiva> More like dreamhost is up to their old tricks, I'd guess
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  737. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: I think it's Loki taking revenge. He got PO'ed because we were making fun of Norskis who make fun of Danes
  738. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> Is Loki from Iceland? or from Denmark? or just generally Scandinavian?
  739. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> does Finland have gods?
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  743. # [18:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes. Ukko and Akka at least
  744. # [18:36] * MikeSmith searches
  745. # [18:37] <hsivonen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukko
  746. # [18:37] <hsivonen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akka_%28Spirit%29
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  748. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: Ilmarinen sounds cooler
  749. # [18:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, ukko means an old man these days
  750. # [18:40] <hsivonen> and akka an old woman (with a derogatory connotation)
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  752. # [18:54] <foolip> hmm, whatwg.org down?
  753. # [18:59] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: Scandinavia was more or less one culture back then, yeah
  754. # [18:59] <Dashiva> Finland always has to be different, though
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  797. # [21:24] <abarth> is whatwg.org down?
  798. # [21:24] <abarth> i can't seem to load the web site
  799. # [21:25] <tantek> I can't load it either but this site claims whatwg.org is up: http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/whatwg.com
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  801. # [21:27] <Dashiva> tantek: That's .com
  802. # [21:27] <gavin_> down for me too
  803. # [21:27] <Dashiva> It claims whatwg.org is down :)
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  806. # [21:27] <abarth> ha
  807. # [21:27] <abarth> that site is great!
  808. # [21:28] <abarth> i like how it defaults to google.com
  809. # [21:28] <annodomini> I can ping it, but can't get it to respond to HTTP
  810. # [21:29] <annodomini> http://www.dreamhoststatus.com/2009/08/21/some-unexpected-private-server-downtime/
  811. # [21:29] <annodomini> Possibly relevant?
  812. # [21:31] <tantek> ah, good catch Dashiva
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  833. # [22:33] <nikola_tesla> I've got a question relating to <canvas>: Essentially, is there any clever trick to use that can allow click events to pass through transparent portions of a canvas element? Similar to the way SVG works?
  834. # [22:35] <nikola_tesla> I have a project that uses <canvas> to draw some overlay elements on screen that are absolutely positioned, many on top of each other. The canvas dimensinos overlay on areas that are transparent, leaving the user to think they can access the underlying overlay. This doesn't happen obviously.
  835. # [22:36] <nikola_tesla> I was thinking about maybe creating some kind of transparent event layer over the entire screen to simulate this, but that sounds kind of dumb. Alternatively I guess my only last option is to move to SVG.
  836. # [22:36] <nikola_tesla> any thoughts would be appreciated.
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  841. # [22:50] <nikola_tesla> Sorry if this is the wrong forum, I was directed here. But if this is the proper place for such discussion and you have an idea, please email me at robotsu@gmail.com
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  850. # [23:21] <Hixie> i wonder how the yahoo/bing thing affects searchmonkey
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  859. # [23:38] <Lachy_> Hixie, I was speaking to a collegue today who had an interesting, though not entirely convincing, proposal for a <pdf> element...
  860. # [23:38] <Hixie> Lachy_: can you stick a google2569a0eb653e4cf1.html file at the root of the blog.whatwg.org domain?
  861. # [23:38] <Lachy_> His use case was for being able to embed PDF documents in web pages, and having native support in the browsers.
  862. # [23:38] <Hixie> i'm trying to register the site in the google webmaster tools console
  863. # [23:39] <Lachy_> like what http://www.scribd.com/ is doing, but without flash
  864. # [23:39] <Lachy_> Hixie, ok, will do it now
  865. # [23:39] <Hixie> isn't "iframe" enough to do that?
  866. # [23:39] <Lachy_> just an empty file with that name?
  867. # [23:39] <Hixie> yeah
  868. # [23:39] <Lachy_> that's what I told him
  869. # [23:39] <Hixie> i mean, safari seems to do it fine...
  870. # [23:39] <Lachy_> yeah, I know, that was also mentioned. I was just passing along the discussion, in case he decides to present it anyway
  871. # [23:40] <Hixie> k
  872. # [23:40] <Lachy_> http://blog.whatwg.org/google2569a0eb653e4cf1.html
  873. # [23:41] <Lachy_> I also questioned him about whether or not an API for controlling the PDF was essential, similar to <video>, but he just seemed to say yes without being able to explain why
  874. # [23:42] <Hixie> heh
  875. # [23:42] <Hixie> thanks Lachy_
  876. # [23:43] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  877. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> Man, iframes never occur to me for things like embedding PDFs.
  878. # [23:44] <Lachy> TabAtkins, I think the problem with using iframes now is that most browsers lack native support for PDF
  879. # [23:45] <Lachy> and, IIRC, results in a save as dialog as soon as the page tries to load
  880. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but most people have an acceptable plugin already installed (in a crazy world where the adobe plugin is 'acceptable').
  881. # [23:45] <Hixie> ok i resubmitted the blog for the index
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  883. # [23:47] * Quits: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81) (Remote closed the connection)
  884. # [23:47] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  885. # [23:48] <Lachy> TabAtkins, most Mac users wouldn't have the Adobe viewer installed, since Preview.app works just fine for most needs
  886. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> how do mac users handle a normal pdf link?
  887. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> Does Preview.app intercept those or something?
  888. # [23:48] <Lachy> depends on the browser
  889. # [23:48] <Lachy> Safari just opens it within the browser itself,
  890. # [23:49] <Lachy> Firefox and Opera offer to download the file or open with the default app
  891. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> K.
  892. # Session Close: Sat Aug 22 00:00:00 2009

The end :)