/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-08-27 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 27 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> ok my third variant just turned into my second as i fixed problems with it
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> that's no good
  5. # [00:01] <annevk3> the first still seems the most attractive
  6. # [00:05] <annevk3> except for subject="" which should get a name that's more aligned with the rest or vice versa
  7. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> itemparent?
  8. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> Or, no, since it refers to itemprops. itempropsubject! Woo!
  9. # [00:06] <hober> masteritem=""
  10. # [00:07] <Hixie> itemfor=""
  11. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> ...
  12. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> That's the one I like.
  13. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> @itemfor 4 life.
  14. # [00:07] <annevk3> Hixie, ja :)
  15. # [00:08] <Hixie> what should it point back to, though? an id="", or the value of item=""? with item="" replacing itemprop=about?
  16. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> And that's why Hixie writes the specs.
  17. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Surely it can't point back to the item type, can it? It's meant to associate things that aren't DOM children of the @item.
  18. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> And there may be many items of that type on the page.
  19. # [00:08] <annevk3> Hixie, id I think, not every item has an about
  20. # [00:09] <Hixie> sorry, i'm thinking out loud. In the variant I'm doing now, there's no type
  21. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Ok. Well, my vote is cast for @id anyway, just for consistency with @for.
  22. # [00:10] <Hixie> i prefer id="" also
  23. # [00:10] <Hixie> but for these variants let's try something else
  24. # [00:10] <Hixie> that way we can see in the studies which is better
  25. # [00:10] * TabAtkins wishes *so hard* that Template Layout was ready already. He can't bring himself to fake this into a table, and he hates rearranging data just to fit arcane display requirements.
  26. # [00:10] <annevk3> itemrel is also somewhat nicer than itemprop
  27. # [00:11] <annevk3> TabAtkins, feel free to solve all the issues with flexbox so we can implement it and Gecko/WebKit can fix their bugs :)
  28. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> annevk3, maybe I will. Point me to all the issues. ^^;
  29. # [00:12] <annevk3> TabAtkins, the idea is that you figure them out on your own by writing lots of tests etc.
  30. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Hm, k.
  31. # [00:13] <annevk3> TabAtkins, then you edit the spec based on your experience and understanding of the rest of the CSS model
  32. # [00:13] <annevk3> that's how e.g. Hixie wrote the parser algorithm and how I edit the XHR spec
  33. # [00:13] <Hixie> it's a lot of work :-P
  34. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> So, start recoding pages using FF/Safari's implementations, finding where they break, and where the spec simply fails my needs?
  35. # [00:14] <annevk3> TabAtkins, for starters you could figure out the interaction with the box model :)
  36. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Sounds like a project to start this weekend.
  37. # [00:15] <annevk3> TabAtkins, warning though, it's probably too complicated
  38. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> In general, or for me specifically?
  39. # [00:15] <annevk3> for most people, just like the CSS table model still isn't documented
  40. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> kk
  41. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> We'll just have to see if I can aspie something out of it.
  42. # [00:18] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@nat/mozilla/x-tpdeipxtneadronr) ("Leaving")
  43. # [00:18] <Hixie> frankly for flexbox i would start with use cases and invent a new technology from scratch
  44. # [00:18] <Hixie> i don't think flexbox is powerful enough, and i think it's too complicated
  45. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> It would be best to get with someone who's done a good bit of XUL editting.
  46. # [00:19] <annevk3> Hixie, it does have two impl going for it, but I do not know enough about layout I suppose to really know
  47. # [00:20] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/temp now has three variants
  48. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> I've had several cases where flexbox as written would have been very useful, but I won't put it out of possibility that a different design would have served equally well in those cases.
  49. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Wait, though, how'd we get on flexbox anyway? I was talking sexy Template Layout.
  50. # [00:23] <othermaciej> flexbox seems powerful enough to do a lot of the kind of layout native apps like to do, but which is awkward in CSS
  51. # [00:23] <othermaciej> the interface to it is admittedly somewhat awkward
  52. # [00:23] <annevk3> Hixie, what about <x itemrel="foo bar" item> ?
  53. # [00:23] <Hixie> what about it?
  54. # [00:24] <annevk3> Hixie, oh, I guess that's the same as item="foo bar"
  55. # [00:24] <othermaciej> if Template Layout is still ASCII Art Layout, then I think it's kind of lame and not suitable for any application that would have to update the layout dynamically
  56. # [00:24] <Hixie> annevk3: hm?
  57. # [00:24] <othermaciej> (you can't expect apps to do that by making new ASCII art on the fly)
  58. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Yeah, it's no good for dynamic layouts. But it's ridiculously good for pre-known layouts.
  59. # [00:24] <annevk3> Hixie, I thought item="" in 1 was restricted to a single token and that therefore in 3 a similar restriction would have to be placed on itemrel in case item was present...
  60. # [00:25] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (n=blurstof@168.203.117.59) ("Leaving...")
  61. # [00:25] <Hixie> annevk3: oh, yeah, i should mention that explicitly
  62. # [00:26] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: it would be nice to have something clean for pre-known layouts that scales naturally to the dynamic case
  63. # [00:27] <annevk3> Hixie, but basically these are all the same idea, just a slightly different syntax
  64. # [00:27] <annevk3> I personally still like 1, but maybe with some naming inspired by 3
  65. # [00:27] <othermaciej> TabAtkins, annevk3: one annoying problem with flexbox is that it requires you to do layout twice in some cases (hyatt understands the details better than me)
  66. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Yeah, right now you have to make a known template, then nest a different layout mode inside the cell. Either another template, or a flexbox, or somthing else.
  67. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Hmm, I'll ping Hyatt about that.
  68. # [00:27] <annevk3> othermaciej, and there's no 2d-flexbox
  69. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> Man, I have difficulty imagining how that would work.
  70. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> In terms of the current flexbox, at least.
  71. # [00:28] <Hixie> annevk3: more or less, yeah
  72. # [00:28] <annevk3> there was this idea for table-layout:flexbox
  73. # [00:28] <annevk3> but we'd actually have to define table layout first :-o
  74. # [00:29] <othermaciej> annevk3: you can do most things that app-style layouts need with nested horizontal and vertical flexboxes
  75. # [00:29] <othermaciej> (that's basically the main thing Gtk is based on, for instance)
  76. # [00:29] <othermaciej> Cocoa has the spring/strut model instead, which may be easier to understand but which I think is less powerful for adaptive flexible layouts
  77. # [00:30] <othermaciej> but yeah, hyatt has raised the idea of enhancing table layout for 2d grid type cases
  78. # [00:30] <annevk3> as I understand it Gecko has some grid internals as well
  79. # [00:30] <othermaciej> XUL has grid stuff of some kind
  80. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> Is that sort of like what I and other were talking about last time Template Layout was tossed around on the list? I think when the dude brought up Matrix Layout?
  81. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Basically almost floating things to table cells?
  82. # [00:31] <annevk3> that discussion might have gone past me
  83. # [00:31] <annevk3> too much noise on www-style
  84. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Sorry; I tend to generate a lot of noise when I get interested in a topic.
  85. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> And almost treat the list like a chat.
  86. # [00:33] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-192-255.bredband.comhem.se)
  87. # [00:33] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  88. # [00:33] <annevk3> for instance I have not read the gradient email apart from a few of the initial ones by dbaron and dhyatt
  89. # [00:34] * Joins: heycam` (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  90. # [00:38] <gsnedders> LOL @ "This Summer in HTML %"
  91. # [00:38] <gsnedders> *5
  92. # [00:41] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@nat/mozilla/x-lsissduyortrebmh)
  93. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> annevk3: You didn't miss a whole lot, unless you design with gradients a lot and find the exact syntax used for them to be of earth-shaking importance.
  94. # [00:44] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  95. # [00:46] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@216-15-54-105.c3-0.grg-ubr3.lnh-grg.md.cable.rcn.com)
  96. # [00:51] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  97. # [00:52] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  98. # [00:52] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@216.239.45.4)
  99. # [00:52] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  100. # [00:53] * othermaciej was surprised at how many people did find the gradient syntax to be of earth-shaking importance
  101. # [00:54] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153) (Remote closed the connection)
  102. # [00:54] * Joins: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  103. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> Hey, it's just complex and new enough to be interesting, and just simple enough to bikeshed the hell out of.
  104. # [00:58] <Lachy_> Hixie, I really dislike the webdatabase API! The arguments parameter in the executeSql() function is too easy to accidentially omit when you have no need for passing extra arguments, but still want to have success and error callbacks
  105. # [00:58] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com) (Nick collision from services.)
  106. # [00:58] * Quits: ap (n=ap@nat/apple/x-yiyxairzlxjavfij) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  107. # [00:59] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  108. # [00:59] <hober> makes you pine for keyword arguments à la lisp or python
  109. # [00:59] * Joins: ap (n=ap@nat/apple/x-vxhplhpzjfngjtqf)
  110. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> jQuery usually handles that sort of thing by simply letting you omit it, when the argument types allow reliable disambiguation.
  111. # [01:00] <Lachy> in fact, I find the whole API to be overly complex and insane to use and wish we had thrown it out. But oh well, too late now I guess
  112. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> Or just folds them all into an object and names them.
  113. # [01:08] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-pbtnefsqhinepyde)
  114. # [01:10] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-227-106-231.rmo.bellsouth.net) ("Core Breach")
  115. # [01:15] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-192-255.bredband.comhem.se)
  116. # [01:15] * AryehGregor eventually remembers that "object" is JavaScript-speak for "associative array"
  117. # [01:18] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  118. # [01:21] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I'm not sure if that's a totally correct way to think about it - objects also have object-like aspects to them, besides the fact that their set of properties is open-ended
  119. # [01:22] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-227-106-231.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  120. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> Yes, true. But in this context it just means "associative array", pretty much.
  121. # [01:22] <othermaciej> the buzzword "Web OS" makes me want to stab myself in the eye
  122. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> I'm not used to languages with a generic Object type that you can stick random attributes on.
  123. # [01:22] * AryehGregor takes sharp objects away from othermaciej
  124. # [01:23] <tantek> IMHO "Web OS" is a far more palatable (and useful) buzzword than "Object Oriented"
  125. # [01:23] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: isn't basically the same thing true in Python and Ruby?
  126. # [01:23] * Quits: jlebar_ (n=jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-ldgyrpjtbpbzzeak) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  127. # [01:24] <othermaciej> tantek: I like "Web Platform" or "Open Web Platform" or "Standards-Based Web Platform"
  128. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> Python has a dedicated dict type that you'd use for this kind of thing. (If you didn't use named parameters, that is.)
  129. # [01:24] <othermaciej> I don't think "Web OS" means anything
  130. # [01:24] <tantek> othermaciej - good points. "platform" is more correct
  131. # [01:24] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I understand that it has a dict type, but as I understand it Python objects are also dictionaries under the covers
  132. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> I think you could do something like foo = Object(); foo.bar = "baz" and so forth, but I don't think that's possible in any way that's sensible for passing to an argument.
  133. # [01:24] <tantek> the "Web OS" has nothing to do with the typical definition of an "OS"
  134. # [01:25] <tantek> of course the term "Web App" is just as bad, for the same reasons
  135. # [01:25] <tantek> and belies "OS"
  136. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> My problem is I'm not used to object literals, so when you say "pass an object to a function" I think about setting a variable to the object and assigning a bunch of stuff on different lines before passing it.
  137. # [01:25] <tantek> if there are "Web Apps" then surely they must run on a "Web OS"
  138. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> Is Chrome OS a "Web OS"? :)
  139. # [01:25] * Joins: jlebar_ (n=jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-sbakpcsvzuscwhcp)
  140. # [01:26] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: it's a "Cloud OS"
  141. # [01:26] <othermaciej> at least, that's what I read on TechCrunch
  142. # [01:26] <othermaciej> tantek: the way I understand it, applications run on a platform but that platform does not have to be an OS
  143. # [01:27] <othermaciej> for example, Java is a platform (though that's not necessarily the nicest comparison example)
  144. # [01:27] <othermaciej> Python plus its common extensions is arguably a platform of sorts
  145. # [01:27] <othermaciej> Many people think of "LAMP" as a platform, and while the acronym includes an OS, that's the least important bit from the point of view of the apps
  146. # [01:28] <AryehGregor> I'd say the web server is less important than the OS.
  147. # [01:28] <AryehGregor> For LAMP.
  148. # [01:28] <tantek> othermaciej - another good point. there are Java apps, but certainly the notion of a "Java OS" has failed pretty miserably
  149. # [01:28] <AryehGregor> L vs. W affects whether you, e.g., can shell out to Unix utilities and handy things like that.
  150. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> A vs. I vs. L vs. N vs. whatever doesn't really make a noticeable difference to the app author.
  151. # [01:29] <othermaciej> the Web server being Apache lets you implement parts of your app in the form of Apache config rules
  152. # [01:29] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@216-15-54-105.c3-0.grg-ubr3.lnh-grg.md.cable.rcn.com)
  153. # [01:29] <othermaciej> (how much people do that, I dunno)
  154. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> Nobody I've heard of relies on that very heavily.
  155. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> Generally a few rewrites at most.
  156. # [01:30] <othermaciej> Linux vs. FreeBSD vs Mac OS X probably doesn't matter hugely in terms of shell capabilities
  157. # [01:30] <othermaciej> agreed Windows is a different world
  158. # [01:30] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  159. # [01:30] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: sure, but if there are even a few rewrites, you need to "port" that part of your web service to move to a different web server
  160. # [01:30] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  161. # [01:30] <AryehGregor> Usually the rewrites are nonessential, though.
  162. # [01:30] <AryehGregor> I'm not aware of any app that requires them.
  163. # [01:31] <AryehGregor> You just fall back to ugly URLs if the admin can't be bothered to take the extra step on installation.
  164. # [01:31] <AryehGregor> Of course, the same is normally true for use of shell utilities, but that can be a somewhat bigger deal.
  165. # [01:32] <AryehGregor> Certain features of MediaWiki will just fail if diff3 isn't available, for instance.
  166. # [01:32] <AryehGregor> Usually also not a huge deal, but I'd say slightly more. :)
  167. # [01:32] <AryehGregor> P > M > L > A
  168. # [01:33] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3143-ipbf5410marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  169. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> Why are the two parts I dislike the most, the most important and least portable ones? :(
  170. # [01:38] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-pbtnefsqhinepyde)
  171. # [01:38] * Joins: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  172. # [01:39] <Hixie> Lachy: hard to miss that error in testing
  173. # [01:48] * Joins: jorlow (n=jorlow@nat/google/x-hkmoftzszmbbxskw)
  174. # [01:48] * Quits: tndH_ (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) ("ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  175. # [01:55] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  176. # [01:58] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-aaqiwtlrlrxihgdb) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  177. # [02:00] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-214-73-15.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  178. # [02:00] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@nat/google/x-jubuzrwhhyaxyndt)
  179. # [02:04] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.16.249) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  180. # [02:04] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.179)
  181. # [02:05] * Joins: heycam`` (n=cam@124-168-126-30.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  182. # [02:05] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@nat/apple/x-agetgxuhagywgwnx)
  183. # [02:08] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Client Quit)
  184. # [02:08] * Quits: jlebar_ (n=jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-sbakpcsvzuscwhcp) ("Leaving")
  185. # [02:08] * Joins: jlebar (n=jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-ootrnqhxnjevsnjp)
  186. # [02:08] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@207-172-95-170.c3-0.grg-ubr3.lnh-grg.md.cable.rcn.com)
  187. # [02:14] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-62-130.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  188. # [02:15] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@207-172-95-170.c3-0.grg-ubr3.lnh-grg.md.cable.rcn.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  189. # [02:15] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  190. # [02:17] * Quits: jlebar (n=jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-ootrnqhxnjevsnjp) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  191. # [02:26] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
  192. # [02:31] * Quits: ap (n=ap@nat/apple/x-vxhplhpzjfngjtqf)
  193. # [02:33] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@nat/mozilla/x-lsissduyortrebmh) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  194. # [02:34] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-asitbazqigvkuqwl) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  195. # [02:36] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-mhfikmhsuuozjpns)
  196. # [02:38] * Joins: wakaba_0 (n=wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  197. # [02:39] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-htjclrdttjnfyczx) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  198. # [02:45] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-wpximojhjhvlaryt)
  199. # [02:47] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@nat/mozilla/x-sxedvdwvuojrhgzg)
  200. # [02:50] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-28-56.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  201. # [02:54] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@157.22.22.46) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  202. # [02:58] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@17.246.17.226)
  203. # [02:59] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Remote closed the connection)
  204. # [02:59] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@nat/apple/x-wegtnkydekoaxdhi)
  205. # [03:00] * Quits: heycam`` (n=cam@124-168-126-30.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Remote closed the connection)
  206. # [03:00] * heycam` is now known as heycam
  207. # [03:00] * Joins: ray_ (i=ray@drong.notacat.org)
  208. # [03:00] * Quits: ray (i=ray@drong.notacat.org) (Nick collision from services.)
  209. # [03:00] * ray_ is now known as ray
  210. # [03:10] * Joins: tantekc (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  211. # [03:10] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-176-38.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  212. # [03:10] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  213. # [03:10] * Joins: tkent (n=tkent@220.109.219.244)
  214. # [03:14] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  215. # [03:41] * Quits: dpranke (n=Adium@nat/google/x-vywpvojmftxslsui) ("Leaving.")
  216. # [03:53] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.179)
  217. # [03:54] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  218. # [04:00] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  219. # [04:05] * Quits: yutak_home (n=kee@ZD094246.ppp.dion.ne.jp) ("Ex-Chat")
  220. # [04:14] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@nat/mozilla/x-sxedvdwvuojrhgzg) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  221. # [04:21] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-wpximojhjhvlaryt) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  222. # [04:27] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
  223. # [04:29] * Quits: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B015325.dip.t-dialin.net) ("?Q")
  224. # [04:40] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@nat/google/x-jubuzrwhhyaxyndt) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  225. # [04:46] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  226. # [04:49] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
  227. # [04:56] * Quits: jorlow (n=jorlow@nat/google/x-hkmoftzszmbbxskw) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  228. # [04:58] * Quits: tantekc (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  229. # [04:59] * Joins: jorlow (n=jorlow@67.218.107.207)
  230. # [05:19] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
  231. # [05:24] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116) (Client Quit)
  232. # [05:29] * Joins: jorlow___ (n=jorlow@72.14.224.1)
  233. # [05:43] * Quits: jorlow___ (n=jorlow@72.14.224.1)
  234. # [05:50] * Quits: jorlow (n=jorlow@67.218.107.207) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  235. # [05:53] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@lit75-4-88-167-34-190.fbx.proxad.net)
  236. # [05:53] * Joins: jorlow (n=jorlow@67.180.199.19)
  237. # [05:54] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  238. # [05:56] * Joins: miketaylr_ (n=miketayl@user-12hdvhe.cable.mindspring.com)
  239. # [05:59] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-67-180-85-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  240. # [06:11] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@lit75-4-88-167-34-190.fbx.proxad.net)
  241. # [06:28] * Joins: harig_ (n=aparan@59.90.71.35)
  242. # [06:28] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
  243. # [06:47] * Quits: miketaylr_ (n=miketayl@user-12hdvhe.cable.mindspring.com)
  244. # [06:48] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  245. # [06:50] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  246. # [07:03] * Joins: VasilievVV (n=vvv@mediawiki/VasilievVV)
  247. # [07:09] * Quits: vvv (n=vvv@mediawiki/VasilievVV) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  248. # [07:12] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@12.171.44.218)
  249. # [07:14] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-192-255.bredband.comhem.se)
  250. # [07:26] * Joins: cardona507 (n=cardona5@67.180.160.250)
  251. # [07:40] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  252. # [07:47] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@ppp-71-139-9-188.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  253. # [07:52] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
  254. # [07:57] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
  255. # [08:00] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116) (Client Quit)
  256. # [08:02] * Joins: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@77.236.204.8)
  257. # [08:03] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@204.14.154.228)
  258. # [08:03] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@204.14.154.228) (Remote closed the connection)
  259. # [08:09] * Quits: jorlow (n=jorlow@67.180.199.19)
  260. # [08:11] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  261. # [08:13] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  262. # [08:14] * Quits: cardona507 (n=cardona5@67.180.160.250)
  263. # [08:14] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-67-164-14-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  264. # [08:17] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  265. # [08:17] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  266. # [08:19] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-192-255.bredband.comhem.se)
  267. # [08:22] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@rdcg01.wifihubtelecom.net)
  268. # [08:26] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@ip67-152-86-163.z86-152-67.customer.algx.net)
  269. # [08:28] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-192-255.bredband.comhem.se)
  270. # [08:30] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-192-255.bredband.comhem.se) (Client Quit)
  271. # [08:37] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-126-30.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  272. # [08:39] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@ppp-71-139-9-188.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  273. # [08:41] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@rdcg01.wifihubtelecom.net)
  274. # [08:41] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@rdcg01.wifihubtelecom.net)
  275. # [08:51] * Joins: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  276. # [08:51] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-67-180-85-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  277. # [08:52] * Joins: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  278. # [08:55] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-176-38.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  279. # [08:56] * Joins: jacobolu_ (n=jacobolu@adsl-75-36-149-198.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  280. # [09:02] * Quits: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  281. # [09:05] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  282. # [09:07] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@12.171.44.218)
  283. # [09:11] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-67-180-85-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  284. # [09:15] <annevk3> morning
  285. # [09:15] <gsnedders|work> mornin'
  286. # [09:23] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@ip67-152-86-163.z86-152-67.customer.algx.net) ("Leaving")
  287. # [09:26] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-218-31.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  288. # [09:38] <annevk3> hsivonen, Philip`, do you have any data related to encodings?
  289. # [09:39] <gsnedders|work> Philip` does
  290. # [09:40] <annevk3> ah yeah, just found http://philip.html5.org/data/meta-content-type.txt
  291. # [09:40] <gsnedders|work> http://philip.html5.org/data/charsets.html
  292. # [09:41] <annevk3> sweet
  293. # [09:42] <hsivonen> annevk3: what kind of data?
  294. # [09:44] <annevk3> unique encoding labels
  295. # [09:44] <tantek> anybody here have a particular opinions about the microdata predefined vocabularies?
  296. # [09:50] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@rdcg01.wifihubtelecom.net)
  297. # [09:52] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  298. # [09:56] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@rdcg01.wifihubtelecom.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  299. # [09:56] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  300. # [09:56] <annevk3> tantek, I like the idea, but I don't feel strongly either way
  301. # [09:56] <annevk3> hsivonen, actually, I guess ARIA role=heading will influence the eventual document outline
  302. # [09:57] <annevk3> hsivonen, so I think your critique was correct
  303. # [09:58] <tantek> annevk3 - the major issue (with the predefined vocabs) is that they are for the most part a static fork/snapshot of microformats vocabs (hCard and hCalendar), and are very much going to have all the bugs (issues in progress) that a snapshot typically does. and frankly this group/community lacks the direct experience and day-to-day usage to keep up with and properly resolve.
  304. # [09:59] <tantek> (lots of outstanding issues on hCard and hCalendar that have been challenging for *me* to resolve, and I invented them and have been living/breathing them for nearly 5 years now)
  305. # [10:00] <gsnedders|work> What was that downloadable web cache that Philip`was using?
  306. # [10:00] <annevk3> tantek, I thought they were snapshots of vCard and vEvent and such
  307. # [10:00] <tantek> anyway - I'm moving forward with producing hCard and hCalendar 1.0.1 specs which incorporate all issue resolutions, and have UA conformance requirements with similar wording to HTML5 - I can pretty much guarantee these will be both be better and better reflect the reality of web author usage than the "predefined microdata" section in HTML5
  308. # [10:01] <tantek> and will advocate dropping predefined microdata vocabs once hCard 1.0.1 and hCalendar 1.0.1 are published.
  309. # [10:02] <tantek> annevk3 - that's the problem, they were *snapshots*
  310. # [10:02] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@rdcg01.wifihubtelecom.net)
  311. # [10:02] <tantek> and as such, rapidly went out of date
  312. # [10:07] <hsivonen> tantek: I like the idea of having non-dotted-token vocabs for common stuff
  313. # [10:07] <hsivonen> tantek: I'd be OK with microformats.org managing the non-dotted-token vocabs
  314. # [10:08] * Joins: foolip_ (n=philip@pat.se.opera.com)
  315. # [10:08] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  316. # [10:14] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  317. # [10:31] * mpt wonders why the March 2009 mailing list archives are so incomplete
  318. # [10:32] <gsnedders|work> Because completeness is overrated
  319. # [10:32] <mpt> Oh, because I'm looking at the archives for the wrong mailing list, durrrr
  320. # [10:39] * VasilievVV is now known as vvv
  321. # [10:44] <tantek> thanks hsivonen - that's good to know.
  322. # [10:44] <gsnedders|work> Am I right in reading the spec to say that <table><tbody><td>foo will throw a parse error upon the td open tag being processed in the tree constructor?
  323. # [10:44] * tantek returns to fixing bugs in predefined non-dotted-token vocabs.
  324. # [10:47] <annevk3> gsnedders|work, seems like it should
  325. # [10:47] <gsnedders|work> Oh wait, I'm being stupid. Ignore me.
  326. # [10:47] <gsnedders|work> Gah. Too late.
  327. # [10:51] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12)
  328. # [10:56] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  329. # [11:06] * Joins: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  330. # [11:09] * Quits: Creap (n=Creap@vemod.brg.sgsnet.se) (Remote closed the connection)
  331. # [11:11] * Joins: Creap (n=Creap@vemod.brg.sgsnet.se)
  332. # [11:21] * Quits: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  333. # [11:27] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus
  334. # [11:28] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@gatea.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  335. # [11:29] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-cqotbabysldddasi)
  336. # [11:33] * Joins: danbri_ (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  337. # [11:34] * Joins: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  338. # [11:41] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  339. # [11:41] * danbri_ is now known as danbri
  340. # [11:47] * Quits: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  341. # [11:52] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-105-125.customers.d1-online.com)
  342. # [11:55] * Joins: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  343. # [12:02] * Joins: adactio (n=adactio@host86-156-238-27.range86-156.btcentralplus.com)
  344. # [12:12] <Creap> in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tabular-data.html#attr-th-scope that example, couldn't you say that Legs and Tails are also th's, for their corresponding row?
  345. # [12:15] <annevk3> in the actual table they are <th>
  346. # [12:15] <annevk3> just not in the example markup
  347. # [12:15] * annevk3 files a bug
  348. # [12:16] <takkaria> annevk3: I sent feedback on removing device-* from media queries, don't know when it'll arrive on list
  349. # [12:17] <annevk3> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Aug/0585.html
  350. # [12:17] <takkaria> oh, I was looking at the July archives, oops
  351. # [12:17] <annevk3> Creap, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7440
  352. # [12:18] <Creap> thanks
  353. # [12:19] * Creap is now known as jacobrask
  354. # [12:24] * Quits: vvv (n=vvv@mediawiki/VasilievVV) ("KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3410, sources date: 20090703, built on: 2009/08/12 22:29:13 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/")
  355. # [12:32] * Joins: vvv (n=kvirc@mediawiki/VasilievVV)
  356. # [12:36] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-105-125.customers.d1-online.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  357. # [12:48] * Quits: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  358. # [12:52] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-218-31.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  359. # [12:53] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-105-125.customers.d1-online.com)
  360. # [13:10] * Joins: hobertoAtWork2 (n=hobertoa@198.45.18.20)
  361. # [13:12] * Quits: hobertoAtWork (n=hobertoa@gw1.mcgraw-hill.com) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  362. # [13:14] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-bdgpzlzwogigofkh)
  363. # [13:18] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3143-ipbf5410marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  364. # [13:24] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  365. # [13:25] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-cqotbabysldddasi) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  366. # [13:28] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-bdgpzlzwogigofkh) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  367. # [13:32] * Quits: harig_ (n=aparan@59.90.71.35) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  368. # [13:39] * Joins: danbri_ (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  369. # [13:45] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  370. # [13:45] * danbri_ is now known as danbri
  371. # [13:47] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@203-214-73-15.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  372. # [13:47] <jgraham> Is it defined somewhere what happens if I do Object.prototype.__defineGetter__("document", function() {return "foo"})?
  373. # [13:49] <Dashiva> Not in a single place
  374. # [13:50] <jcranmer> the proton streams get crossed
  375. # [13:50] <Dashiva> But what is the alternate behavior you're wondering about, jgraham?
  376. # [13:50] <jgraham> Dashiva: OK, well afaik __defineGetter__ isn't specified anywhere. But assuming it wasw, is there any wat to tell from a spec what will happen if I do the above and access window.document?
  377. # [13:51] <jgraham> i.e. whether I would get "foo" or a [HTMLDocument]
  378. # [13:52] <Dashiva> Oh, I see what you mean
  379. # [13:53] <Dashiva> window doesn't have a regular prototype chain
  380. # [13:54] <Dashiva> And in any case, window's own properties would be checked before reaching Object
  381. # [13:54] <jgraham> Hmm, true
  382. # [13:56] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
  383. # [13:57] * jcranmer is now known as jncranmer|away
  384. # [13:59] <Dashiva> Now, if you tried doing that on e.g. Document with documentElement, I think it would depend on whether documentElement is ReadOnly or not
  385. # [14:05] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: http://www.dotnetdotcom.org/ ?
  386. # [14:05] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: Ah, yeah, thx
  387. # [14:05] <jgraham> Dashiva: That was what I was thinking. So I started investigating…
  388. # [14:07] <Dashiva> Now, DOM 3 Core says documentElement is ReadOnly
  389. # [14:09] * Quits: wakaba_0 (n=wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  390. # [14:16] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  391. # [14:25] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  392. # [14:30] * jncranmer|away is now known as jcranmer
  393. # [14:36] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) ("going back to danbri.org")
  394. # [14:39] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-105-125.customers.d1-online.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  395. # [14:44] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-105-125.customers.d1-online.com)
  396. # [14:52] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (n=blurstof@168.203.117.59)
  397. # [14:55] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  398. # [15:05] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247)
  399. # [15:09] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@64.30.3.122)
  400. # [15:16] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-sioqbkpsginuranf)
  401. # [15:18] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  402. # [15:19] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  403. # [15:21] * Joins: harig (n=aparan@59.90.71.35)
  404. # [15:21] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@64.222.189.25)
  405. # [15:22] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda) (Client Quit)
  406. # [15:27] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  407. # [15:30] * Quits: vvv (n=kvirc@mediawiki/VasilievVV) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  408. # [15:41] * Joins: vvv (n=kvirc@mediawiki/VasilievVV)
  409. # [15:49] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@129.33.49.251)
  410. # [15:49] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  411. # [15:52] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  412. # [15:53] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@130.189.179.215)
  413. # [16:00] * Quits: Rik|work (n=Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net)
  414. # [16:09] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
  415. # [16:23] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-67-164-14-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  416. # [16:23] * Quits: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  417. # [16:25] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  418. # [16:26] * Joins: Rik|work (n=Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net)
  419. # [16:27] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
  420. # [16:46] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-sgudqrnuchxnxjqe)
  421. # [16:47] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-sioqbkpsginuranf) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  422. # [16:48] * Parts: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@77.236.204.8)
  423. # [16:49] * Joins: shepazutoo (n=schepers@adsl-221-74-58.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  424. # [16:59] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  425. # [17:00] <eighty4> gsnedders|work: pong?
  426. # [17:00] <gsnedders|work> eighty4: pong
  427. # [17:00] <eighty4> *ping
  428. # [17:00] <eighty4> gsnedders|work: valla 18.00?
  429. # [17:01] <gsnedders|work> eighty4: yeah
  430. # [17:01] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  431. # [17:02] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  432. # [17:02] <eighty4> good good
  433. # [17:03] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@12.171.44.248)
  434. # [17:03] <eighty4> but don't expect any wonders, I'm way to tired for that.
  435. # [17:04] <gsnedders|work> :)
  436. # [17:05] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-227-106-231.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  437. # [17:07] * Quits: pablof (n=palbo@pat-tdc.opera.com) (":qa!")
  438. # [17:07] * Quits: Rik|work (n=Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net)
  439. # [17:08] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-sgudqrnuchxnxjqe) (Client Quit)
  440. # [17:10] * Joins: pablof (n=palbo@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  441. # [17:10] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  442. # [17:12] * Joins: cardona507 (n=cardona5@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  443. # [17:21] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-mgupyaumfepdhxqp)
  444. # [17:33] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-meijjvyexnrtjawa)
  445. # [17:34] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  446. # [17:40] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3143-ipbf5410marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  447. # [17:40] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-105-125.customers.d1-online.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  448. # [17:40] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-105-125.customers.d1-online.com)
  449. # [17:42] <eighty4> gsnedders|work: still there?
  450. # [17:42] <gsnedders|work> eighty4: yes
  451. # [17:42] <eighty4> you're so not going to make it in time :)
  452. # [17:42] <gsnedders|work> eighty4: I'm so getting a lift :)
  453. # [17:42] <eighty4> pff
  454. # [17:42] <gsnedders|work> eighty4: You going from Ryd?
  455. # [17:42] <eighty4> yeah
  456. # [17:42] <gsnedders|work> That helps :)
  457. # [17:43] <eighty4> ?
  458. # [17:43] <gsnedders|work> Well, it is closer :)
  459. # [17:43] <eighty4> right
  460. # [17:43] <eighty4> but you should see my bike
  461. # [17:43] <eighty4> or well... you'll see my bike
  462. # [17:44] * eighty4 s so hating that opera rounds % and that ie don't support display:table-row
  463. # [17:44] <TabAtkins> God, I know. Makes it difficult as hell at times.
  464. # [17:44] <gsnedders|work> IE8 supports display:table-row, no?
  465. # [17:45] <TabAtkins> Yes, but that's not something you can depend on for a widely-deployed page.
  466. # [17:46] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p7237-ipbf704marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  467. # [17:46] * TabAtkins really wishes for a display:table-row-start value that would make a table-cell, but in a new row.
  468. # [17:46] * Quits: pablof (n=palbo@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  469. # [17:46] <TabAtkins> There's no reason I should have to wrap this stuff in a container just to make it multi-line.
  470. # [17:47] <gsnedders|work> Manipulating tables through DOM is horrible
  471. # [17:49] <TabAtkins> is there something special about tables that makes it bad, or is just dealing with the DOM?
  472. # [17:51] <gsnedders|work> Tables are just especially bad
  473. # [17:52] <eighty4> and now my server is playing with me :(
  474. # [17:52] <eighty4> http://play.broken8.se/box/index.php ffs
  475. # [17:59] <eighty4> there we go. I so want that to work in ie
  476. # [17:59] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@D-128-208-133-191.dhcp4.washington.edu)
  477. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> Possibly solution: pop some jQuery in a conditional comment that fakes it. This requires saying "screw you" to IE<8 users who have scripting turned off, but screw them.
  478. # [18:00] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@157.22.22.46)
  479. # [18:02] <cardona507> thats cool eighty4 - is it javascript? or php?
  480. # [18:03] <cardona507> ic now
  481. # [18:04] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-12-101.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  482. # [18:09] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@12.171.44.248)
  483. # [18:13] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@nat/apple/x-czaohwrjmtwhlejy)
  484. # [18:15] * Quits: foolip_ (n=philip@pat.se.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  485. # [18:16] * Joins: Rik|work (n=Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net)
  486. # [18:16] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-105-125.customers.d1-online.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  487. # [18:17] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-105-125.customers.d1-online.com)
  488. # [18:21] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  489. # [18:22] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@nat/mozilla/x-gqpjnvvxwduxiqiu)
  490. # [18:22] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  491. # [18:29] * Quits: Phae (n=phaeness@gatea.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  492. # [18:34] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.179)
  493. # [18:35] * Quits: harig (n=aparan@59.90.71.35) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  494. # [18:38] <Philip`> "... unless maybe the user has a terabyte of free disk space" - pfah, who *doesn't* have a terabyte of disk space these days?
  495. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> I have less than 200 GB free right now. :(
  496. # [18:39] * Quits: jacobrask (n=Creap@vemod.brg.sgsnet.se) ("nu fkt")
  497. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> i have 40gb free.
  498. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> this laptop's old, and i regularly fill it with movies.
  499. # [18:44] <AryehGregor> One of the servers I'm root on has over a terabyte free.
  500. # [18:44] <AryehGregor> But that's not really usual on home desktops yet. :)
  501. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> nod. 500gb is fairly common for new computers, or higher-end slightly older computers.
  502. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> but 1tb or more isn't common yet unless you've added the space yourself.
  503. # [18:46] <AryehGregor> 500 GB total is common, 500 GB free isn't so common. Not after a while's use, anyway.
  504. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> I have over 500 GB total here.
  505. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> ok, yeah
  506. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> . . . actually, right now it's about exactly 500 GB total, since I'm using my second disk for RAID 1.
  507. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> next birthday: new computer, so I'm not relying on a 5-year old laptop for all my personal computing.
  508. # [18:48] * Quits: cardona507 (n=cardona5@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  509. # [18:49] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.246.16.249)
  510. # [18:49] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.246.16.249) (Remote closed the connection)
  511. # [18:50] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.179) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  512. # [18:50] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-12-101.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  513. # [18:50] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-8-212.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  514. # [18:52] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Zbc73.z.pppool.de)
  515. # [18:52] <Philip`> 1TB disks cost about 20% more than 500GB disks when I last checked
  516. # [18:52] <Philip`> (They were external disks, though, so I suppose they have higher fixed costs)
  517. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but assuming equal quality, you're reducing your mean time to failure by consolidating
  518. # [18:53] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.119.55.165.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  519. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> Obviously, assuming you're RAID0ing the 500gb disks
  520. # [18:55] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.16.249)
  521. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> If you care about MTBF, why are you using RAID 0?
  522. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> Er, MTTF, whatever.
  523. # [18:57] * Joins: smoofles (n=smoofles@91.128.98.7)
  524. # [18:57] <smoofles> oy
  525. # [18:58] <smoofles> where can one ask about features for html 5, or rather just bounce an idea – is this channel ok?
  526. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> Clearly you wouldn't, is the point. ^_^ But if you're doing a better RAID, you're losing some disks.
  527. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> smoofles: yup
  528. # [18:59] <smoofles> cools, I was wondering if it would make sense to have the video tag support an alt attribute
  529. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> So for a simple RAID1, you're paying a 50% premium. More expensive than the 1tb disk, but more reliable too.
  530. # [18:59] <smoofles> that would hold the url for an alternatively-encoded video file
  531. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> smoofles, that's what <source> is for, surely?
  532. # [18:59] <smoofles> oh
  533. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> For that case, use <source> children elements rather than the @src attribute.
  534. # [19:00] <smoofles> aah, didn't know about the <source> one
  535. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> no problem
  536. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> Works for <audio> too.
  537. # [19:00] <smoofles> coolio
  538. # [19:00] <smoofles> I read over the source elements stuff
  539. # [19:01] <smoofles> good, that basically settles the codec discussion for me, thanks :)
  540. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> Yup. Still annoying that you have to provide two files, but at least it works.
  541. # [19:02] * Joins: ap_ (n=ap@nat/apple/x-npplcyjjnjkfiqne)
  542. # [19:03] <smoofles> yeah, well, on a lot of the sites people provide more versions anyway, everything from swf, mov, avi, mp4, etc
  543. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  544. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> Someday, though. Someday...
  545. # [19:04] * Joins: jorlow (n=jorlow@nat/google/x-ibogltbddrpavkgi)
  546. # [19:06] <smoofles> I guess 10 years from now it will be just a couple of thousand jpg files and an mp3, sort of like Apple's "http streaming" idea, since bandwidth will increase that much – problem solved :P
  547. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> haha, that'll work.
  548. # [19:08] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-105-125.customers.d1-online.com) (Connection timed out)
  549. # [19:08] * Joins: jlebar (n=jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-zkkiumtwjggvrgni)
  550. # [19:09] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@157.22.22.46) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  551. # [19:10] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.16.249)
  552. # [19:11] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.16.249)
  553. # [19:14] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  554. # [19:14] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.246.16.249)
  555. # [19:14] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.246.16.249) (Client Quit)
  556. # [19:15] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.246.16.249)
  557. # [19:16] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.16.249) (Connection reset by peer)
  558. # [19:16] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  559. # [19:18] * Joins: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  560. # [19:18] <jorlow> oops.....one of the test shell unit tests is going to go red from 24612
  561. # [19:18] <jorlow> i'll have a fix in soon
  562. # [19:18] <AryehGregor> . . . is that meant for #chromium?
  563. # [19:19] <jorlow> :-) sorry
  564. # [19:19] * AryehGregor used to have #chromium where he now has #whatwg on his screen, so was confused for a second there
  565. # [19:24] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Zbc73.z.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  566. # [19:25] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  567. # [19:25] * Joins: cardona507 (n=cardona5@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  568. # [19:26] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  569. # [19:28] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p7237-ipbf704marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  570. # [19:29] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  571. # [19:31] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@83.252.193.59)
  572. # [19:32] <zcorpan_> annevk2: html5-differences could point out in the abstract that it also lists changes between published html5 drafts
  573. # [19:34] * Parts: smoofles (n=smoofles@91.128.98.7)
  574. # [19:36] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12) (Remote closed the connection)
  575. # [19:41] * Quits: sbublava (n=stephan@77.119.55.165.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  576. # [19:47] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@125.175.251.212.customer.cdi.no)
  577. # [19:47] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  578. # [19:52] * Quits: adactio (n=adactio@host86-156-238-27.range86-156.btcentralplus.com)
  579. # [19:52] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.16.249)
  580. # [19:53] * ap_ is now known as ap
  581. # [19:54] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  582. # [19:59] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.16.249)
  583. # [20:01] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  584. # [20:05] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-126-30.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  585. # [20:06] * Joins: ap__ (n=ap@17.244.24.195)
  586. # [20:06] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.16.249) (Remote closed the connection)
  587. # [20:07] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.179)
  588. # [20:07] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-109-187.customers.d1-online.com)
  589. # [20:07] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@210-84-56-211.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  590. # [20:08] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-109-187.customers.d1-online.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  591. # [20:15] * Quits: ap (n=ap@nat/apple/x-npplcyjjnjkfiqne) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  592. # [20:16] <zcorpan_> annevk2: "The address element is now scoped by the new concept of sectioning." - could be changed to say that it's scoped to nearest ancestor article element (or body)
  593. # [20:18] <Lachy> is anyone here familiar with SQL?
  594. # [20:19] <mpilgrim> Lachy: i am
  595. # [20:19] <mpilgrim> though it's been a while
  596. # [20:19] <AryehGregor> Lachy, you mean like the formal standard, or some SQL-based RDBMS in practice?
  597. # [20:19] <Lachy> I'm need to write a test for webdatabase that inserts multiple rows, but I don't know how to construct an INSERT statement that can actually insert more than 1 row
  598. # [20:19] <Lachy> AryehGregor, SQLite specifically
  599. # [20:19] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure that's possible in a RDBMS-independent way.
  600. # [20:19] <AryehGregor> In MySQL you can just do INSERT INTO foo (x,y,z) VALUES (1, 2, 3), (4, 5, 6), ...;
  601. # [20:20] <Lachy> I don't care if it's RDBMS-independent. I just need to test our implementation that uses SQLite
  602. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> Couldn't you just do multiple INSERT statements?
  603. # [20:21] * Joins: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  604. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> It looks like in SQLite, the only way to do it is: INSERT INTO foo (x, y, z) SELECT * FROM (SELECT 1, 2, 3 UNION ALL SELECT 4, 5, 6 UNION ALL ...);
  605. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> At least according to a quick Google search.
  606. # [20:21] * Quits: cardona507 (n=cardona5@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  607. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> The usual way is probably just multiple INSERTs.
  608. # [20:21] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  609. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> The "S" part of "SQL" is kind of a misnomer. :D
  610. # [20:22] <Lachy> no, because I'm trying to test the resultSet.rowsAffected API, which means I need to do it within a single executeSql statement, rather than several
  611. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> Then you should be able to use a subquery. INSERT INTO foo (x, y, z) SELECT * FROM (SELECT 1, 2, 3 UNION ALL SELECT 4, 5, 6 UNION ALL ...);
  612. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> Alternatively, if it's not actually possible, you don't have to test it. :)
  613. # [20:23] <Lachy> I will try that soon
  614. # [20:24] * Quits: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Client Quit)
  615. # [20:25] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-109-187.customers.d1-online.com)
  616. # [20:26] <eighty4> TabAtkins: yeah I know. I could just rewrite it to do float:left for ie<8 since those handles % more or less correctly imo
  617. # [20:26] * zcorpan_ blinked at "ie<8" without actually reading the whole line
  618. # [20:27] * zcorpan_ misread it as "ie<3"
  619. # [20:27] <eighty4> zcorpan_: definitely not :)
  620. # [20:28] <eighty4> is it wrong that I'm more concerned about getting stuff to work in opera then in ie6 and 7?
  621. # [20:28] <zcorpan_> nope ;)
  622. # [20:28] <eighty4> good
  623. # [20:30] <zcorpan_> maybe you'd get a different answer from someone who doesn't work at opera
  624. # [20:30] <eighty4> ;)
  625. # [20:30] <eighty4> it's not like I have any visitors anyway :D
  626. # [20:31] <eighty4> but you really should fix how opera handles %
  627. # [20:31] <zcorpan_> i'm not sure what we do wrong with %
  628. # [20:33] * ap__ is now known as ap
  629. # [20:33] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@83.252.192.255)
  630. # [20:34] <eighty4> you're rounding it up :)
  631. # [20:35] <eighty4> or if it was down
  632. # [20:35] <eighty4> 12.456% gets 13 or if it was 12
  633. # [20:36] * gsnedders rounds everything down
  634. # [20:37] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: We always round down in CSS
  635. # [20:37] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: Also, foolip kept trying to find you.
  636. # [20:37] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: ok
  637. # [20:38] <zcorpan_> i guess we have a bug already?
  638. # [20:38] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  639. # [20:39] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@157.22.22.46)
  640. # [20:39] * Quits: jianli (n=jianli@72.14.227.1)
  641. # [20:39] * virtuelv misread ie<8 as ie is less than boobies
  642. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> Firefox I know tries to round intelligently, so frex 8 floating boxes set to 12.5% width always take up exactly 1 line.
  643. # [20:39] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/219
  644. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> I don't know if they use heuristics to tell when they should round up/down or what.
  645. # [20:39] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: Dunno. What we do is fine per spec, because rounding is undefined.
  646. # [20:40] <Hixie> you shouldn't round
  647. # [20:40] <virtuelv> Hixie: I assume you should do sub-pixel positioning, then?
  648. # [20:40] <Hixie> yes
  649. # [20:41] <Hixie> possibly with render-time snap-to-grid
  650. # [20:41] <Hixie> but there shouldn't be any cumulative rounding error
  651. # [20:41] <gsnedders> We fail a lot of the Mozilla rounding reftests because of rounding differences
  652. # [20:41] <Hixie> i filed a bug on opera needing to do subpixel layout about 3 decades ago
  653. # [20:41] <gsnedders> Though as far as I could tell, our behaviour is mostly fine per spec, just different.
  654. # [20:42] <zcorpan_> 3 decades?
  655. # [20:42] * gsnedders tries to remember if Hixie has even been alive for three decades
  656. # [20:43] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  657. # [20:44] * Quits: jlebar (n=jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-zkkiumtwjggvrgni) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  658. # [20:44] <zcorpan_> it would be slightly better if we rounded down just one pixel
  659. # [20:44] * Joins: jlebar (n=jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-vaovdnlxgpxlingn)
  660. # [20:44] <zcorpan_> but now we round 0.9% to 0%
  661. # [20:44] <gsnedders> Yeah, right
  662. # [20:44] <eighty4> I should file that "bug" I found.... still not sure it's actually a bug
  663. # [20:44] * gsnedders finds a site compat bug on the Flickr Pro "place order" page
  664. # [20:44] <eighty4> 0.9% could be 100px
  665. # [20:44] * gsnedders guesses about the cause
  666. # [20:45] <TabAtkins> zcorpan_: Really? That's, um, quite bad.
  667. # [20:45] <zcorpan_> indeed
  668. # [20:45] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: YA RLY
  669. # [20:45] <TabAtkins> Even on standard resolutions that's 10px or more. >_<
  670. # [20:45] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: ORLY?
  671. # [20:48] * zcorpan_ finds CORE-1006
  672. # [20:48] <mpilgrim> "CW: I still plan on being involved but probably less than in the past." <-- I honestly don't see how that's possible
  673. # [20:49] * gsnedders laughs at the number of duplicates
  674. # [20:49] <mpilgrim> (from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1331.html )
  675. # [20:52] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: You going to be in tomorrow?
  676. # [20:53] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: yes
  677. # [20:56] <gsnedders> Then I'll speak to you about this then
  678. # [20:58] * Quits: scherkus (n=scherkus@72.14.227.1) ("lol")
  679. # [21:02] * Quits: miketaylr (n=mtaylor@38.117.156.163)
  680. # [21:15] <Hixie> jgraham: the spec gen script is hanging when doing the w3c version
  681. # [21:16] <Hixie> which i think means it's hanging doing the annotations
  682. # [21:16] <eighty4> would this be considered a bug? http://play.broken8.se/opera_bug/ watch it in ff browsers and then opera. Try to remove overflow: hidden on #content.
  683. # [21:17] <Hixie> ok that could possibly be because my server went down
  684. # [21:17] <Hixie> wtf
  685. # [21:22] <gsnedders> eighty4: Oh, that issue again… WebKit does what Opera does, and I think that is right
  686. # [21:23] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  687. # [21:23] <zcorpan_> Hixie: maybe we should allow <object> to have an open-ended set of attributes, like <embed>
  688. # [21:23] <zcorpan_> Hixie: as a shorthand for <param ...>
  689. # [21:23] <eighty4> gsnedders: yeah, I never did anything about it last time
  690. # [21:23] <gsnedders> eighty4: overflow:hidden is odd though
  691. # [21:24] <eighty4> gsnedders: but why would the display property change how margin and float works?
  692. # [21:24] <gsnedders> It shouldn't,.
  693. # [21:25] <eighty4> yet it does :)
  694. # [21:26] <gsnedders> I didn't say it did not :)
  695. # [21:26] <eighty4> i.e. a bug?
  696. # [21:28] <gsnedders> Yeah
  697. # [21:28] <gsnedders> W
  698. # [21:28] <gsnedders> *Which behaviour is right is debatable, I think
  699. # [21:28] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/220 another opera bug i stumbled upon yesterday
  700. # [21:29] <gsnedders> We have quite a few bugs with button, though
  701. # [21:29] <zcorpan_> seems display:list-item on parent/ancestor triggers it
  702. # [21:31] <Hixie> zcorpan_: why?
  703. # [21:32] <Hixie> jgraham: regen script is indeed hanging on the w3c copy for some reason
  704. # [21:32] <zcorpan_> Hixie: because browsers support it and it's a lot shorter in markup
  705. # [21:33] * Joins: dpranke (n=Adium@nat/google/x-rdrsqjguknwelnwe)
  706. # [21:33] <zcorpan_> Hixie: authors have to choose between short markup and no fallback (embed) and verbose markup with fallback (object)
  707. # [21:33] <Hixie> zcorpan_: *shrug*
  708. # [21:33] <Hixie> zcorpan_: they shouldn't do either
  709. # [21:34] <zcorpan_> because plugins are evil?
  710. # [21:35] * Quits: ap (n=ap@17.244.24.195)
  711. # [21:36] <Hixie> well i dunno about "evil", but certainly they're not to be encouraged
  712. # [21:36] <Hixie> what with being media-specific, platform-specific, even browser-specific
  713. # [21:36] <Hixie> and proprietary
  714. # [21:39] <jgraham> Hixie: Oh
  715. # [21:39] <jgraham> I will have a look
  716. # [21:40] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@nat/mozilla/x-gqpjnvvxwduxiqiu) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  717. # [21:43] <annevk3> zii.com looks interesting
  718. # [21:45] <zcorpan_> Hixie: "The id attribute represents its element's unique identifier (ID)." - not sure why <a name> is much different
  719. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> annevk3: Huh, interesting. An android phone with multi-touch, cool.
  720. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> And a free phone with purchase of the SDK.
  721. # [21:46] <Hixie> zcorpan_: woah, that's bogus.
  722. # [21:47] * zcorpan_ sees that lang="" uses the word "specifies" instead of "represents"
  723. # [21:48] <annevk3> Hixie, represents is used all the time for various things
  724. # [21:48] <annevk3> Hixie, e.g. also for the cookie attribute
  725. # [21:48] <Hixie> file bugs
  726. # [21:49] <annevk3> well I don't really care
  727. # [21:49] <Hixie> (especially if it's the hyperlinked "represents")
  728. # [21:49] <Hixie> (cos that makes no sense)
  729. # [21:49] <annevk3> it's not linked
  730. # [21:49] <Hixie> ok well then it's basically a meaningless statement
  731. # [21:49] <Hixie> just fluff
  732. # [21:49] <Hixie> and certainly not a definition of any kind
  733. # [21:50] * zcorpan_ filed a bug
  734. # [21:51] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@nat/mozilla/x-qejegwiokemmghfv)
  735. # [21:52] <zcorpan_> maybe you should replace all non-normative sentences in the spec with "Fluff fluff fluff..."
  736. # [21:52] * Joins: jmb^ (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  737. # [21:52] <Dashiva> zcorpan_: Normative spec view
  738. # [21:53] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: Or, "This is filler text."
  739. # [21:54] <zcorpan_> Hixie: "An error occured while submitting your comment. Please let ian@hixie.ch know."
  740. # [21:54] * Quits: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk) (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  741. # [21:54] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@p4149-ipbf2803hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp) (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  742. # [21:56] * zcorpan_ tries again
  743. # [21:56] * Joins: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@p4149-ipbf2803hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp)
  744. # [22:00] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@83.252.193.59)
  745. # [22:06] * Joins: sebastiandeutsch (n=sebastia@116.190.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt)
  746. # [22:09] <sebastiandeutsch> Don't know if I'm right here. Can I ask a technical canvas question? Is it possible to instanciate a canvas, then draw on it and the blit it (drawImage) on another canvas?
  747. # [22:10] * Joins: ap (n=ap@nat/apple/x-cndflpfnoqbioddv)
  748. # [22:11] * Joins: Creap (n=Creap@vemod.brg.sgsnet.se)
  749. # [22:12] * Parts: sebastiandeutsch (n=sebastia@116.190.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt)
  750. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> sebastiandeutsch: You *should* be able to pull the data from the first canvas with getImageData, then blit it over with putImageData on the second.
  751. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> Haven't used <canvas> directly, but the spec seems to say that's how you'd do it.
  752. # [22:16] <jgraham> Hixie: Clearly the annotations script is broken but I'm not quite sure why
  753. # [22:16] <TabAtkins> Goddammit, people have no patience. Dude left after *2* minutes of me reading the spec for him.
  754. # [22:21] <annevk3> he prolly figured out drawImage worked fine
  755. # [22:22] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-uybeisupmrmgbmto)
  756. # [22:23] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  757. # [22:24] * Joins: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  758. # [22:24] <jgraham> Hmm maybe it is just that w3c.org is being really slow
  759. # [22:24] <jgraham> s/w3c/w3/
  760. # [22:25] <jgraham> I guess I should make a cache of the data somehow and use the cached values if the requests take too long
  761. # [22:25] <jgraham> But not this evening
  762. # [22:33] * Quits: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@129.33.49.251)
  763. # [22:45] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-109-187.customers.d1-online.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  764. # [22:47] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-214-73-15.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  765. # [22:53] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  766. # [22:55] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@203-214-73-15.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("Leaving")
  767. # [22:58] * Joins: miketaylr (n=mtaylor@38.117.156.163)
  768. # [22:59] <Philip`> sebastiandeutsch: I guess you'll never read this but you can just use drawImage to draw one canvas onto another
  769. # [23:02] * Joins: jwalden_ (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-kowkyhfgndzspfdg)
  770. # [23:02] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@pool-173-67-103-206.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  771. # [23:03] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@83.252.192.255)
  772. # [23:03] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B014D2D.dip.t-dialin.net)
  773. # [23:04] * TabAtkins is having fun rolling his own security system (industry-standard encryption, but homebrew system for employing it), but wonders if it's sufficient.
  774. # [23:05] * Joins: VasilievVV (n=kvirc@cdma-92-36-33-26.msk.skylink.ru)
  775. # [23:06] * Quits: vvv (n=kvirc@mediawiki/VasilievVV) (Nick collision from services.)
  776. # [23:06] * VasilievVV is now known as vvv
  777. # [23:09] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-uybeisupmrmgbmto) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  778. # [23:09] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@17.246.19.32)
  779. # [23:09] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Remote closed the connection)
  780. # [23:09] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@nat/apple/x-lgrcfgbbjewfjsmg)
  781. # [23:18] * Joins: ap__ (n=ap@17.246.19.164)
  782. # [23:19] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  783. # [23:19] * Quits: ap (n=ap@nat/apple/x-cndflpfnoqbioddv) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  784. # [23:24] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  785. # [23:24] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@17.246.19.32)
  786. # [23:29] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@nat/mozilla/x-qejegwiokemmghfv) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  787. # [23:32] * Quits: ap__ (n=ap@17.246.19.164) (Remote closed the connection)
  788. # [23:32] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  789. # [23:32] * Joins: ap (n=ap@nat/apple/x-dftkbxvstsstsovg)
  790. # [23:36] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Remote closed the connection)
  791. # [23:36] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@nat/apple/x-jcqzckikivkwftck)
  792. # [23:36] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@125.175.251.212.customer.cdi.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  793. # [23:55] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@157.22.22.46) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  794. # [23:55] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-109-171.customers.d1-online.com)
  795. # Session Close: Fri Aug 28 00:00:00 2009

The end :)