/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-08-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Aug 30 00:00:01 2009
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  18. # [01:51] <Hixie> jgraham: could you make the annotation script output the ISSUE- marker annotations in a stable order? it keeps flipflopping with each checkin.
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  20. # [02:27] <ttepasse> If <blockquote> contains either a <header> or <footer> ??are these quoted content or the usual metainformational content about the quoted content?
  21. # [02:29] <Hixie> quoted content
  22. # [02:29] <Hixie> everything in <blockquote> is quoted
  23. # [02:30] <ttepasse> Sad. I just fell in love with this construct:
  24. # [02:30] <ttepasse> <blockquote> <p> content <p> content <p> content <footer>cited from <cite>Foo Declaration of Bar Baz</cite></footer></blockquote>
  25. # [02:31] <Hixie> just use <blockquote> <p> content <p> content <p> content</blockquote><p>cited from <cite>Foo Declaration of Bar Baz</cite></p>
  26. # [02:32] <Hixie> or use <figure>, once <legend> is better supported in browsers
  27. # [02:32] <Hixie> <figure><blockquote> <p> content <p> content <p> content </blockquote><legend>cited from <cite>Foo Declaration of Bar Baz</cite></legend></figure>
  28. # [02:33] <ttepasse> I don't count on <legend> ;)
  29. # [02:33] <Hixie> not yet, indeed
  30. # [02:34] <ray> just don't make any web pages until 2022
  31. # [02:34] <ttepasse> That's my plan. I'm waiting von CSS 3 Template Layout.
  32. # [02:35] <ttepasse> Ok. There goes another class into my stylesheet.
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  63. # [06:26] <SQELee> I'm a newcomer so please forgive my blunders. I'm Lee Copeland of Software Quality Engineering (www.sqe.com). One of my roles there is managing technical editor for the Better Software magazine (www.BetterSoftware.com). I'm always looking for new articles and authors. I thought an article on HTML5 would be of interest to our readers. If you're interested in writing, or know someone who would, please contact me -- lee@sqe.com. Best to all.
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  90. # [09:43] <gavin__> darn, hixie replied to my spec feedback message before it reached 2 years old :)
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  93. # [10:04] * gavin files https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=28832 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=513541
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  123. # [13:29] <annevk3> maybe we should just drop support for the HTTP Link header
  124. # [13:30] <annevk3> it's not really that useful and the new proposal is making it vastly more complex
  125. # [13:31] <annevk3> way too complex to justify spending all the effort on it getting it right
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  179. # [21:18] <Hixie> annevk3: send comments
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  182. # [21:39] <annevk3> yeah I should do that
  183. # [21:40] <annevk3> I've been tempted to make that comment a few times, but I'm not sure how to put it after I've already done a more constructive review
  184. # [21:41] <annevk3> overall I just get the feeling that the marginal benefit of the Link header is not worth all the effort, especially since there are alternatives
  185. # [21:44] <Hixie> personally i rather like the link header, it's the registry i'm not sure about
  186. # [21:49] <annevk3> the concept is sort of nice, but UI for most link values has failed pretty badly
  187. # [21:49] <annevk3> also for <link>
  188. # [21:50] <annevk3> and <link> had its decade and didn't really deliver apart from rel=alternate combined with some feed sniffing
  189. # [21:50] <Hixie> oh i wouldn't have many rel values, indeed
  190. # [21:50] <Hixie> but rel=stylesheet, for instance
  191. # [21:51] <Hixie> is useful in a Link header
  192. # [21:51] <annevk3> it's a nice gimmick :)
  193. # [21:51] <annevk3> and confuses the heck out of people too
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  195. # [21:52] <annevk3> got quite a bit of email when I initially announced http://id.annevankesteren.nl/
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  197. # [21:53] <Hixie> oh?
  198. # [21:53] <annevk3> i guess the other neat bit is styling text/plain resources thanks to their page load processing model
  199. # [21:53] <Hixie> i was just thinking that
  200. # [21:53] <Hixie> i've actually done that
  201. # [21:53] <Hixie> even applied XBL bindings to text/plain
  202. # [21:54] <Hixie> i bet Mark didn't mention that in his security considerations section...
  203. # [21:54] <annevk3> yeah, but text/plain is quite close to proprietary formats
  204. # [21:54] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  205. # [21:55] <annevk3> there's no semantics for headings etc. they're quite visually oriented files usually
  206. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> Proprietary ASCII art?
  207. # [21:55] <Hixie> there's no semantics, sure
  208. # [21:55] <Hixie> it's plain text
  209. # [21:55] <Hixie> that doesn't mean it proprietary :-)
  210. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> There's no semantics in PNG either.
  211. # [21:55] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@125.175.251.212.customer.cdi.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  212. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> Or most formats anyone uses, actually. HTML is an odd duck.
  213. # [21:58] <annevk3> Hixie, fair enough; I guess my point was that I don't think it's a good exchange format
  214. # [21:58] <Hixie> it's not especially great
  215. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> It's fine for some things. Like, say, source code.
  216. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> . . . well, you could serve that with the MIME type of the source code, really.
  217. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> It's widely used for e-mail.
  218. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> I dunno, it works. No need to be complicated if you don't need it.
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  222. # [22:06] <jcranmer> hmm
  223. # [22:06] <jcranmer> somehow, it seems to me that everyone except HTML users can get by without much formalized semantics
  224. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> And HTML users do too, since HTML authors almost never actually write proper semantic HTML.
  225. # [22:17] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@88.115.164.40) (Remote closed the connection)
  226. # [22:19] <jcranmer> yet a lot of people seem to strongly desire semantic HTML
  227. # [22:19] <Lachy> annevk3, why does http://id.annevankesteren.nl/ have two almost identical Link headers?
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  232. # [22:41] <tantek> AryehGregor, that's incorrect, modern web designers have been authoring semantic HTML for years. It's been state of the art since early 2000s. See archives of simplebits.com for example. And look for "semantic XHTML" as well as "semantic HTML".
  233. # [22:42] <AryehGregor> tantek, I didn't say modern web designers haven't been authoring semantic HTML for years. But in practice, the large majority of HTML that gets served is not what I'd call semantic HTML.
  234. # [22:42] <AryehGregor> Most HTML authors neither know nor care much about semantic HTML.
  235. # [22:42] <tantek> "almost never" is an incorrect characterization
  236. # [22:43] <AryehGregor> An overstatement, perhaps. Substitute "most HTML authors don't actually write proper semantic HTML" if you like.
  237. # [22:43] <tantek> HTML is a very easy technology to get started with, thus it is expected that there's far more beginners. eventually the ones that do it more adopt semantic HTML.
  238. # [22:44] <tantek> and all the top books in the field cover semantic HTML
  239. # [22:44] <AryehGregor> Then why is http://www.google.com/ heavily presentational?
  240. # [22:44] <tantek> e.g. Jeffrey Zeldman's Designing with Web Standards etc.
  241. # [22:44] <tantek> google.com isn't heavily anything
  242. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> People who do stuff like write books or hang out in #whatwg know all about semantic HTML, and might care too. That doesn't mean the average HTML author does.
  243. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> I would say this is pretty presentational: <body bgcolor=#ffffff text=#000000 link=#0000cc vlink=#551a8b alink=#ff0000 onload="document.f.q.focus();if(document.images)new Image().src='/images/nav_logo6.png'" topmargin=3 marginheight=3>
  244. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> That uses presentational attributes I never even knew existed.
  245. # [22:46] <tantek> and one example does not an average make ;)
  246. # [22:46] <tantek> google tends to be more backend focused
  247. # [22:46] <AryehGregor> You said "eventually the ones that do it more adopt semantic HTML", without qualification. Since the authors of the Google home page probably work with HTML a fair bit, I think it's a legitimate counterexample.
  248. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> What I see in HTML is a tremendous amount of evangelism by standards cognoscenti, which is largely ignored by authors. With, of course, notable exceptions, no dispute there.
  249. # [22:47] <tantek> Aryeh - google.com home page is an edgecase. to see how the authors at Google code (and parse) check out their work on Rich Snippets
  250. # [22:47] <tantek> it's all about semantic HTML
  251. # [22:47] <tantek> and microformats
  252. # [22:48] <tantek> so yes, even at Google, the state of the art is semantic HTML + microformats
  253. # [22:48] <tantek> and moving more and more in that direction
  254. # [22:48] <tantek> Google Maps supports hCards
  255. # [22:48] <tantek> etc. etc.
  256. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> tantek: Are you still a more-or-less active editor in the CSSWG?
  257. # [22:48] <tantek> TabAtkins - was less, moving towards becoming more again.
  258. # [22:48] <AryehGregor> Well, I'd put microformats in a different category from things like using <h1> instead of <font size=5><b>.
  259. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> kk. Was wondering if UI was permanently orphaned.
  260. # [22:49] <tantek> focusing on wrapping up 1.0.1 versions of microformats specs that take into account numerous resolved issues and errata.
  261. # [22:49] <tantek> (which of course will obsolete all the "predefined vocabulary" stuff in HTML5)
  262. # [22:49] <tantek> (which should be dropped anyway from HTML5 anyway)
  263. # [22:49] <tantek> TabAtkins - nope, UI is in CR, steadily gaining implementations.
  264. # [22:49] <tantek> to exit CR there needs to be two interoperable implementations of every feature
  265. # [22:50] <tantek> CSS WG is pretty hard core about real world interop requirements
  266. # [22:50] <tantek> bbiab
  267. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Cool. Aryeh and I have been tossing things back and forth that would be covered by that module, so I wanted to make sure they had a possibility of being addressed. ^_^
  268. # [22:50] * Joins: vvv (n=vvv@mediawiki/VasilievVV)
  269. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> I guess new features aren't really likely in CR.
  270. # [22:51] <AryehGregor> s/\./?/
  271. # [22:51] <tantek> right - new features would go in a new version
  272. # [22:51] <ttepasse> Tantek, the german hobbyist/amateur-forum I frequent has a small core of semantic (X)HTML using regulars but a very high percentage of presentational HTML and obtrusive Javascript. There are days when I think table layouts have never died.
  273. # [22:51] <AryehGregor> They haven't . . .
  274. # [22:51] <tantek> definitely send CSS3 UI feedback and suggestions for future versions to www-style@w3.org
  275. # [22:51] <tantek> (and feel free to cc tantek at cs stanford edu) - it might take me a while to look at them, but I'm collecting.
  276. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> I've got two threads titled with [css3-ui], and may send another one soon. As long as you're collecting, I'm happy.
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  282. # [23:29] <GPHemsley> Hmm.... the W3C validator validates language tags...?
  283. # [23:36] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@12.140.254.34)
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  285. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> I idly wondered what it would be like for a HTML author to learn how to write HTML from the HTML 5 spec. I recalled that I learned how to play Magic: the Gathering from the 80-page Comprehensive Rules, and wondered if something similar was possible. I converted the spec to PDF to see how many pages it would be printed.
  286. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> 867.
  287. # [23:39] <GPHemsley> yike
  288. # [23:39] <GPHemsley> s
  289. # [23:40] <jcranmer> PDF is 1300 pages or so
  290. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> Probably depends on font size and so on. I got 867 when I tried in Firefox just now.
  291. # [23:40] <GPHemsley> AryehGregor: What if you eliminated the DOM-related stuff and just stuck to the elements and attributes?
  292. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> I didn't try the author version.
  293. # [23:40] <jcranmer> OOXML is a few thousand pages
  294. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> . . . I've apparently reviewed 447 pages of the HTML 5 spec. It totally doesn't feel like I've done that much work.
  295. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> (Well, I skipped some parts, like nearly all of <canvas>. But still.)
  296. # [23:45] * Quits: annevk3 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  297. # [23:47] <jgraham> The PDF is 935 pages of A4 or 991 pages of letter. It is linked from the top of the WHATWG spec so you don't have to generate your own
  298. # [23:47] <AryehGregor> Oh, there's an official one. How convenient.
  299. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> Well, same ballpark.
  300. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> Firefox only took five or ten minutes to generate mine. :)
  301. # [23:48] <jgraham> Er, those numbers are out by a couple because I didn't reach the end of the acknowledgements
  302. # [23:48] <jgraham> iirc the official ones are made with prince which is actually pretty reasonable at typesetting PDFs from HTML
  303. # [23:49] <jgraham> traditionally not a browser strong point
  304. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Heh, I taught myself M:tG from the full rulebook too. ^_^
  305. # [23:55] <Hixie> i think i might shrink the font on the official PDFs.
  306. # [23:55] <Hixie> i was looking at them earlier and the font is 16px, which i like for screen, but is a bit big for paper
  307. # [23:55] <Hixie> also maybe we should make the page number references superscripts or something
  308. # [23:58] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  309. # [23:58] <jgraham> Hixie: I just fixed the sort order of issue markers
  310. # [23:59] <Hixie> thanks
  311. # [23:59] <jgraham> Should always be ascending numerical order now, anything else is a bug
  312. # [23:59] <Hixie> thanks
  313. # Session Close: Mon Aug 31 00:00:00 2009

The end :)