/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-09-02 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Sep 02 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <Lachy> Binarytales, link?
# [00:01] <Binarytales> it might be down... it was one of _why's creation... i'll check
# [00:01] <Lachy> Binarytales, is that the one about Ruby?
# [00:01] <Binarytales> yeah
# [00:02] <TabAtkins> Basically, the current spec text is *completely* about related-but-tangential content within an article, *not* sidebars. If it ever suggested that it was to be used for sidebars, that implication is long gone now.
# [00:02] <Lachy> ok, I'm aware of it, though I haven't read it and can't recall any examples of asides from it
# [00:02] <Lachy> TabAtkins, I know. That's a major problem with the spec
# [00:03] <TabAtkins> But we like it how it is. ^_^
# [00:03] <Lachy> I don't know what happened to the stuff about sidebars. I'm sure it used to be in there, and it should still e
# [00:03] <Lachy> *be
# [00:03] <TabAtkins> Can you check commits on a particular section?
# [00:03] <Lachy> I think that's difficult
# [00:04] <TabAtkins> I think so too.
# [00:04] <Lachy> though if you know how to use SVN, feel free to try
# [00:04] <TabAtkins> You'd probably want to jump through the diffs until you ran into a change.
# [00:04] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I may try after work.
# [00:04] <Binarytales> Okay here is another example http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2009/04/making_time_saf.html
# [00:04] <Binarytales> about two thirds of the way down there is an explanation of when Dionysuis think Christ was born
# [00:05] <Binarytales> that would be marked up as an <aside>
# [00:05] <Lachy> Binarytales, hmm, yeah, I guess
# [00:06] <TabAtkins> Yup. That's the use of <aside> that I'm angling for, that's currently spec-supported.
# [00:06] <Lachy> well, we still need sidebars restored in some way
# [00:06] <Lachy> or just be stuck with <section>
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> The only thing wrong with <section> is that sidebars *are* so common that it probably falls under the same justification as header/footer
# [00:08] <Lachy> it kind of sucks to overload the element with two distinct purposes, and it would also suck to have to introduce two separate elements to address each case
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> Plus, it would invalidate Hixie's rule of main content being "anything that's not header/footer/aside/nav"
# [00:08] <Hixie> what _are_ y'all talking about
# [00:09] <Binarytales> Lachy - can you show a use case where us would need a <sidebar> that isn't already served by a current element?
# [00:09] <Lachy> Hixie, <aside>
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# [00:09] <Lachy> Hixie, the fact that it can be used for tangentially related content, and for page sidebars
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# [00:10] <Lachy> Binarytales, it avoids the need to have to use id="sidebar" or class="sidebar" (or equivalent)
# [00:10] <Hixie> "tangentially related content" is semantic-speak for "sidebar"
# [00:11] <TabAtkins> BinaryTales: nod to Lachy. It falls under the same justification as <header> and <footer> - they're *so* common that they can be justified.
# [00:11] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I disagree. ^_^ Plus so do lots of other people, apparently.
# [00:11] <TabAtkins> pullquote is tangentially related content. A digression is tangentially related content. A blogroll is *not*. It's just a sidebar.
# [00:12] <Lachy> Hixie, as we're discussing, there are two different types of tangentially related content. There's the page side bar, much like you find in, say, the left colum of wikipedia, and there's the kind that Binarytales pointed out in the quirksmode article
# [00:13] <Hixie> a blogroll is tangentially related content
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# [00:13] <Hixie> Lachy: one is tangentially related to an <article>, and the other to the <body>
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# [00:14] <Lachy> Hixie, either way, the spec needs to be fixed to a) make it clear that such sidebars are a form of tangentially related content, or b) find an alternative solution
# [00:14] <Hixie> in what world could a blog's blogroll not be considered related to the blog?
# [00:15] <TabAtkins> In the world where you'll still have to use a class to differentiate the two for styling?
# [00:15] <TabAtkins> All my "tangent" asides can probably be styled the same, while my sidebar will be completely different.
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# [00:16] <Hixie> sure
# [00:16] <Hixie> article > aside vs body > aside
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# [00:18] <Hixie> in the HTML5 spec, there are many classes of <aside>s -- .example, .note, .warning, .XXX, the issue markers on the side, the inline issue markers that jgraham inserts, etc
# [00:18] <Hixie> they all have different styles
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# [00:18] <TabAtkins> Yeah, all those are fine asides.
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# [00:18] <TabAtkins> If you do want sidebars to be <aside>, then you've *got* to edit the spec. The current examples give a *completely* different impression of the purpose of the element.
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# [00:20] <Lachy> Hixie, it seems like authors are trying to find and expect to see a clear distinction between elements used for overall page structure, and elements used for smaller sub-sections
# [00:20] <TabAtkins> Lachy's got it.
# [00:20] <Lachy> so the spec needs to address that issue in some way.
# [00:20] <Hixie> if you want more examples, or different examples, file a bug
# [00:20] <Binarytales> i think its a context problem with the whole spec itself. nearly all the examples are from the context of a particular set of data. and blog post, an article, etc. There is a lack of example and clarity for the context of the greater context, the whole webpage itself
# [00:21] <TabAtkins> There's already 20 or so emails on the subject. ^_^
# [00:21] <Lachy> I'm not sure if examples would address the entire issue, though it would help
# [00:21] <Hixie> if there's e-mails, that works too :-)
# [00:21] <TabAtkins> The Superfriends got a lot of discussion moving.
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# [00:22] <Lachy> Hixie, I will think about it and get back to you with, hopefully, a concrete way to address the issue
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# [00:23] <Lachy> TabAtkins, yeah, the "Superfriends" had some very good, constructive feedback, although some bits are a little misguided
# [00:23] <Binarytales> this is fascinating stuff but alas The Wire is on....
# [00:23] * Hixie hasn't seen any mail about their feedback
# [00:23] <Hixie> did they send that in?
# [00:23] <Lachy> but I find it somewhat disturbing that they called themselves the "superfriends"
# [00:23] <Hixie> or did my spam filters catch it again
# [00:23] <TabAtkins> Hixie: It's been linked.
# [00:23] <Lachy> Shelley sent it
# [00:23] <Binarytales> http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/
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# [00:24] <TabAtkins> "HTML5 feedback from prominent designers" and "Implementor feedback on new elements in HTML5"
# [00:24] <TabAtkins> both started yesterday.
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# [00:24] <Hixie> HTML5 feedback from prominent designers was apple's feedback, no?
# [00:24] <TabAtkins> Though the latter was actually started by Maciej.
# [00:24] <Hixie> er wait
# [00:25] <Hixie> the other one was i mean
# [00:25] <Lachy> Hixie, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1473.html
# [00:25] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but the superfriends stuff got included into the whole discussion.
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# [00:26] <Hixie> oh, i see, there was no actual feedback in those e-mails except for lachy's e-mail
# [00:26] <Hixie> that's why it didn't get logged
# [00:27] <Lachy> Hixie, don't you count e-mails that link to actual feedback, like Shelley's did? Or do you log those pages elsewhere?
# [00:28] <Hixie> i didn't save that one because i'm expecting them to actually send the feedback
# [00:28] <Hixie> and it's far easier for me to deal with e-mails with feedback than with e-mails with links to feedback
# [00:28] <Hixie> since otherwise i have to dig up their e-mail addresses, etc
# [00:28] <Lachy> ah, ok
# [00:29] <Lachy> I didn't think they would repeat themselves in an e-mail, especially now that the link has already been sent
# [00:30] <Hixie> they said they would
# [00:31] <Hixie> so...
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# [00:35] <othermaciej> I think they are planning to post some feedback in email
# [00:35] <othermaciej> but it seems worth reading in any case
# [00:38] <TabAtkins> I think it would be worthwhile to explicitly talk about the distinction between page-structure and section-content, and then state that some elements (like <aside>) fill both roles.
# [00:39] <TabAtkins> Just a quick mention would work; a sentence or so stating that explicitly in <aside>, and again perhaps in <footer> (though the semantics of footer are still utterly inappropriate for the intended structural role, unlike <aside>).
# [00:41] <TabAtkins> I'll write up some example text and email it tonight.
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# [00:55] <TabAtkins> Okay, question: Say I have a sidebar composed of a site-nav, a blogroll, and a favorite quote. The first is obviously a <nav>, the latter two are <aside>s. However, I need to wrap the whole thing in a container to get it to sit on the side properly. This container should be a <div>, right?
# [00:55] <hober> no, I think the sidebar itself is the <aside>, and it contains a <nav> and some other stuff
# [00:56] <Hixie> <aside> <nav> </nav> <section> </section> <blockquote> </blockquote> </aside>
# [00:56] <hober> the blogroll is a <ul> I imagine
# [00:57] <TabAtkins> All right. If I *didn't* need to wrap them together (or explicitly need to *not* wrap them together), would the latter two be <aside>s by themselves?
# [00:58] <hober> that would be one way to do it, sure.
# [00:58] <TabAtkins> And is the meaning of <nav> changed by being wrapped in an <aside>?
# [00:58] <TabAtkins> As opposed to putting a <nav> in a <header> or <footer>, that is.
# [00:59] <hober> AFAICT the meaning of <nav> wouldn't change, no
# [01:00] <hober> Nothing in #the-nav-element suggests that the semantics of <nav> change based on parentage
# [01:00] <TabAtkins> I'm just making sure that it's acceptable to have a bare <nav> acting as a sidebar without <aside>.
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# [01:00] <hober> if the only thing your sidebar contains is navigation, then that sounds like a fine use of <nav>
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# [01:02] <TabAtkins> Kk. I've got no particular problem with this, it's just that when an element is stated as "being for sidebars", I need to make sure that it's not *required* for sidebars.
# [01:02] <Hixie> i think your problem here is that you are trying to design your markup around your presentation
# [01:02] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I'm actually trying to discover to what extent I can *not* do that.
# [01:02] <Hixie> you should write your markup with no CSS at all, and then only once you're completely happy with the markup without styles, open your css file in a text editor :-)
# [01:02] <TabAtkins> So then I can suggest spec edits to make it clear to others.
# [01:03] <TabAtkins> That's precisely what I already do. ^_^
# [01:03] <Hixie> good :-)
# [01:04] <TabAtkins> Dude, you and tantek were my gods when I started webcoding. You guys were the first blogs I stumbled across that made sense.
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# [01:05] <TabAtkins> So, would it be *acceptable* to have <div><nav /><aside .blogroll /><aside><blockquote /></aside></div>? Just trying to ascertain the flexibility that is intended here.
# [01:06] <hober> now that pubdate="" is on <time>, I think it would make more sense if it applied to the nearest ancestor <article> element, or <body> if there is no such ancestor
# [01:07] <TabAtkins> It already applies to the nearest ancestor <article>. Applying it to <body> is definitely needed, though, as <body> implies the semantics of <article>.
# [01:07] <hober> I'm imagining a page that is just a document, where <body> is the sectioning element that represents the entire document. there's no need to add an <article> descendent that contains all descendents of <body>...
# [01:07] <TabAtkins> hober: yeah
# [01:08] <hober> I guess I'll write an email
# [01:09] * TabAtkins really wishes he had figured out this <base> business a long time ago, before he started running into difficulties with content moving between paths.
# [01:11] <Hixie> TabAtkins: if you find yourself needing <div>, then you're not doing markup before style. :-P
# [01:11] <TabAtkins> Hixie: The issue is needing to adjust markup *after* styling fails due to limitations in CSS.
# [01:11] <Hixie> ah
# [01:11] <TabAtkins> When Template Layout is reliably present I'll be happy. ^_^
# [01:12] <TabAtkins> Yeah, so given an initial design where I have a <nav> and two <aside>s, is it okay to just <div>-wrap them to make them display properly, or do I *need* to <aside>-wrap them instead, and peel off the <aside>s wrapping the individual blocks.
# [01:13] <hober> sent (re pubdate="")
# [01:13] <Hixie> TabAtkins: if you're adding elements purely for styling purposes, you should use <div>
# [01:13] <Hixie> that's what <div> is for
# [01:14] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I know, just making sure that, even though there's an element *for* sidebars, it's still cool to collect things into a sidebar without it.
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# [01:14] <TabAtkins> I have tiny niggling inconsistencies in my brain that I'm ironing out right now.
# [01:15] <hober> well, you should always use the element with the closest semantic to your need
# [01:15] <ttepasse> The <main>-proposal got shot down, isn't it?
# [01:15] <tantek> but not *over* semantic
# [01:15] <TabAtkins> At least for now, yeah, ttepasse.
# [01:15] <hober> tantek: indeed
# [01:16] <TabAtkins> hober: I think tantek captured the point behind my questions. ^_^
# [01:16] <tantek> TabAtkins - I don't like <main> either, but could have settled for <shead>, <sbody>, <sfoot>
# [01:16] <TabAtkins> ttepasse: main content is anything that's not <header>/<footer>/<nav>/<aside>
# [01:16] <tantek> TabAtkins - I *guarantee* that most web devs will just end up creating a <div class="content"> or something similar to go between <header> and <footer>
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# [01:17] <tantek> it such a well established markup pattern
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# [01:17] <ttepasse> ?anything that's not <header>, etc.? is not easily adressable by JS oder CSS.
# [01:17] <TabAtkins> I do it about 50/50 depending on whether I have styling ned for it.
# [01:17] <tantek> in fact, I doubt you would find many class="header" and class="footer" on a page without an intervening class="content" or class="main" etc. (s/class/id as apropos)
# [01:18] <TabAtkins> ttepasse: Yeah, I know. But it's sensical to ATs, frex.
# [01:18] <tantek> good point ttepasse
# [01:18] <ttepasse> ATs, frex?
# [01:18] * krijn joins the discussion
# [01:18] <TabAtkins> AT = accessibility, um, I forget what the T is for. Frex = for example.
# [01:18] <krijn> What's it about?
# [01:18] <tantek> accessibility tools perhaps
# [01:18] <TabAtkins> krijn: Pancakes or waffles: which is better?
# [01:18] <krijn> Pancakes!
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# [01:19] <TabAtkins> Good, you and I will flank the infidels.
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# [01:19] <krijn> I agree a <main> or <content> thingy would be handy
# [01:19] <TabAtkins> Hahahahahaha Myakura.
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# [01:19] <krijn> Now see what you've done :)
# [01:19] <tantek> TabAtkins - is that some sort of subconscious circle vs square preference? or perhaps flat (pancake) vs cellular (waffle)
# [01:20] <TabAtkins> I use a <div .main/.middle/.content/.block> for the non-foo stuff whenever I need it for a CSS or JS hook, yeah.
# [01:20] <krijn> Me too
# [01:20] <TabAtkins> It's about a genital vs oral preference. Freud was all over this.
# [01:20] * tantek prefers waffles because they are better structured to contain maple syrup in the cells.
# [01:20] <krijn> Waffles remind me of tables
# [01:20] <hober> yes, because the whole purpose of them is to deliver maple syrup (non-sarcastic)
# [01:21] <krijn> And tables are evil, it seems
# [01:21] <tantek> krijn HTML tables are simply misunderstood ;)
# [01:21] <krijn> No, they are evil
# [01:21] <hober> krijn: fortunately, maple syrup is tabular data
# [01:21] <krijn> According to authors at least :)
# [01:21] <hober> so marking it up in a waffle is approprate
# [01:21] <krijn> So, concluding, we need a <waffle> tag
# [01:22] <TabAtkins> I support this proposal.
# [01:22] <krijn> Can we overrule Hixie without discussion already?
# [01:22] <krijn> Or are we still not there yet?
# [01:22] * TabAtkins delivers his breakfast over the wire.
# [01:22] <TabAtkins> Let's vote.
# [01:22] <TabAtkins> Aye for <waffle>, nay for <hixie>.
# [01:22] <krijn> Aye
# [01:22] <krijn> For the record, beer and aye saying don't match
# [01:23] <TabAtkins> A <hixie> element ridicules your use of presentational markup. It's like <audio> but demeaning.
# [01:23] <beowulf> someone say waffles?
# [01:24] <TabAtkins> Yes, how do waffles relate to the struggle to evangelize semantic markup, and the difficulties contained in keeping your fingers from getting sticky when using <td>s.
# [01:26] * Hixie checks the air ducts for contaminants
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# [01:26] <ttepasse> I hope <hixie> has a textual fallback.
# [01:26] <krijn> Oh look, contaminants!
# [01:26] <krijn> :)
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# [01:28] <krijn> Btw, the biggest liquor store in the Netherlands now uses HTML5 for their website \o/
# [01:29] <TabAtkins> Woo! \o/
# [01:29] <krijn> In case anybody was waiting for that information
# [01:29] <krijn> Thanks everybody in here for making that happen :)
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# [01:34] <krijn> And before I get to emotional, nn everybody
# [01:34] <TabAtkins> later
# [01:34] <krijn> o.
# [01:35] <krijn> o/
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# [01:35] <ttepasse> Why are there such strong restriction for permissible aria roles on some elements?
# [01:35] <ttepasse> By my reading I can't do <table role="grid main"> or am I wrong?
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# [01:40] <TabAtkins> Where's that section again? I can never remember the name of it so I can't find it in the TOC.
# [01:41] <ttepasse> 3.2.6
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# [01:44] <TabAtkins> Hmm, so you're saying that the table itself is the main content all by itself?
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# [01:46] <ttepasse> Yes. Think about a better markuped webserver directory listing. There may be additional stuff like a logo and navigation but the main content is the listing of files and directories.
# [01:46] <Hixie> send mail if you think the restrictions should be relaxed
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# [01:48] <tantek> TabAtkins - the obv use case for a <table> being the main content all by itself is a CSV file that's been transcoded into an HTML <table>
# [01:48] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I was thinking something like that.
# [01:48] <Hixie> can a role="" take two values btw? i thought it could only take one.
# [01:49] <TabAtkins> Well, we've got a use-case for such right here.
# [01:49] <ttepasse> /xhtml-role/ has even an example with two, so yes.
# [01:49] <TabAtkins> A combination of a type and landmark role.
# [01:49] <tantek> in fact, I wouldn't mind seeing a <csv> ... </csv> element that acted like a <pre> except 1. parsed for the comma separation and implied columns accordingly, and 2. provided a DOM similar to <table> for accessing all the rows and columns.
# [01:49] <TabAtkins> ...
# [01:50] <TabAtkins> I must code support for this tonight.
# [01:50] <Hixie> i wonder what the UA conformance criteria are for two roles
# [01:50] <tantek> This would rapidly accelerate the "webification" of the numerous CSV files out there (more and more being published due to OpenGov and OpenScience) efforts
# [01:50] <Hixie> i don't understand what it would mean
# [01:52] <hober> ttepasse: keep in mind that aria's role="" isn't the same attribute as the xhtml2wg role attribute spec
# [01:52] <tantek> hober, thank goodness.
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# [01:52] <ttepasse> Oh it is?
# [01:52] <hober> tantek: :) srsly people, we already got one (class="")
# [01:52] <ttepasse> There should be a "/TR/ for dummies" tutorial.
# [01:54] <ttepasse> Hixie, http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wai-aria-implementation-20090224/#mapping_role
# [01:55] * tantek adds <csv> to the list of (perhaps crazy) proposals he has to write up for HTML5.
# [01:55] <Hixie> ok so basically they allow it and then immediately say it's pointless
# [01:55] <Hixie> good work
# [01:56] <tantek> Hixie, of course, there's nothing like that in the HTML5 spec, <cough>img border="0"</cough>
# [01:56] <tantek> ;)
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# [01:59] <ttepasse> ?Because landmarks do not generally have mappings in platform accessibility APIs, they may occur anywhere within the role string without affecting how the first widget role is exposed.? ... sounds like my <table role="grid main"> is not so pointless but makes me wonder what landmarks are for. Custom UI in UAs?
# [01:59] <Hixie> tantek: blame hsivonen, i hate that as much
# [02:00] <tantek> Hixie - is there "blame" markup in the HTML5 spec? Kind of like blame in CVS...
# [02:01] <Hixie> svn blame blames me for everything, but at least one of the checkin comments says "blame: hs" :-)
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# [02:03] <Hixie> btw, tantek, any idea when zeldman and co are sending their feedback in?
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# [02:05] <Hixie> tantekc: btw, any idea when zeldman and co are sending their feedback in?
# [02:05] <tantekc> Hixie, I believe we are all taking bits and pieces of http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/ and emailing them in - hence the "we are optimistic that the official channels provided by the working group will offer a sufficient and fair hearing of our concerns"
# [02:05] <tantekc> Hixie, I believe we are all taking bits and pieces of http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/ and emailing them in - hence the "we are optimistic that the official channels provided by the working group will offer a sufficient and fair hearing of our concerns"
# [02:05] <Hixie> k
# [02:06] <Hixie> any idea what the time frame on that is?
# [02:06] <tantekc> As you know, I prefer to document things on the web first, and then email in URLs.
# [02:06] <tantekc> timeframe: as soon as possible
# [02:06] <Hixie> if you could mail in text, that would make my life much easier, fwiw
# [02:06] <tantekc> ok I will mention that you prefer plain text email
# [02:06] <Hixie> thanks
# [02:07] <tantekc> Hixie, have you documented your Communication Preferences anywhere online? E.g. http://tr.im/comms
# [02:07] <tantekc> if you have, please give me the URL and I will happily link to it
# [02:07] <Hixie> tantekc: "Comments are very welcome, please send them to whatwg@whatwg.org. Thank you."
# [02:07] <Hixie> (top of the spec)
# [02:07] <tantekc> I meant in general, your personal prefs.
# [02:08] <tantekc> because obviously you eventually look at bugs filed, blog posts, blog post comments etc.
# [02:08] <tantekc> (perhaps not guaranteed, but that seems to be the emergent behavior)
# [02:08] <Hixie> oh you mean in general? no, no preferred communication style.
# [02:09] <Hixie> i have an antipreference for phone communication and anything involving burning gasoline or going through TSA checkpoints
# [02:09] <tantekc> so the only communication preference you have has to do with the HTML5 project
# [02:09] <Hixie> yeah
# [02:09] <Hixie> well, i mean, my preferences are specific to whatever i'm doing
# [02:09] <tantekc> you've written up a scathing deconstruction of telcons for example (most of which I agree with)
# [02:09] <Hixie> (i have a preference for HTML5, simply because there are certain things that are easier to dealing with)
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# [02:09] <Hixie> i wrote an e-mail recently... let's see
# [02:10] <tantekc> anyway - it might be useful to see them in an ordered list
# [02:10] <tantekc> with perhaps a threshold for, -- below this point I will avoid these forms of communication --
# [02:10] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jun/0616.html
# [02:10] <tantekc> and then you can list phone, f2f, flying etc.
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# [02:11] <tantekc> yeah that one - I read it.
# [02:11] <tantekc> a good write up
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# [02:11] <Hixie> e-mail, irc, jabber, aim, msn, yahoo messenger; twitter, blogs; forums i have to register for; meetings. I don't have a phone.
# [02:11] <Hixie> where ";" indicates a threshold, so all things between ; are equally ok
# [02:12] <TabAtkins> tantekc: http://www.xanthir.com/etc/csv.html
# [02:12] <tantekc> anyway - g2g, but just wanted say thanks Hixie for already fixing a bunch of stuff in HTML5 that Zeldman et al gave feedback on (e.g. the "HTML5" vs. "HTML 5" inconsistency) - pretty much all that feedback was a consensus result of the "HTML5 Super Friends"
# [02:12] <TabAtkins> Not perfect yet - I need to copy over all attributes of the original <csv> element - but still, working!
# [02:13] <tantekc> TabAtkins - WHOA! that is super cool
# [02:13] <TabAtkins> Super easy. ^_^
# [02:13] <tantekc> I might wrap the <csv> in a <pre> for backward compat display
# [02:14] <TabAtkins> Would be fine - you sorta expect csvs to be fixed-width anyway.
# [02:14] <tantekc> right
# [02:14] <tantekc> or maybe just use a style sheet
# [02:14] <tantekc> csv {whitespace:pre}
# [02:14] <tantekc> that ought to do it
# [02:14] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that'd work.
# [02:15] <tantekc> TabAtkins - want to collaborate on a joint <csv> proposal submission for HTML5?
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# [02:15] <tantekc> like I said, g2g now, but I can start drafting something based on the above
# [02:15] <TabAtkins> Note - that would make the original CSV, and presumably a native CSV, look pre, but wouldn't affect the js-shim csv.
# [02:15] <TabAtkins> Sure, tantekc.
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# [02:17] <tantekc> scientists will *love* <csv> for easily publishing data sets on the web
# [02:17] <tantekc> this is going to be a big enabler for open science on today's web. (my current thoughts: http://tr.im/openscience )
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# [02:17] <TabAtkins> Heh, cool.
# [02:21] <TabAtkins> So, how do I iterate through a DOM Node's attributes?
# [02:21] <TabAtkins> node.namedNodeMap()?
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# [02:24] <othermaciej> node.attributes
# [02:25] <othermaciej> (or really, element.attributes)
# [02:25] <TabAtkins> Since I program in jQuery, not js, does that return an array? Or some exotic DOM structure? If the latter, how do I iterate through it?
# [02:26] <Binarytales> i think it's an array
# [02:26] <TabAtkins> It looks like it at least acts like one. $.each() can handle anything with .length
# [02:27] <othermaciej> it's a NamedNodeMap; I don
# [02:27] <othermaciej> 't know about jQuery details
# [02:27] * TabAtkins is testing
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# [02:30] <TabAtkins> All right, got it. Yeah, $.each() handles it fine.
# [02:32] <TabAtkins> Though I should probably translate this to plain DOM...
# [02:33] <TabAtkins> I need to go look at what jQuery actually does for each of these functions so I can back-translate.
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# [02:43] <TabAtkins> Hrm, does IE treat linebreaks funny? I'm trying to do a .split("\n"), but it's a no-go in IE. Perhaps auto-translating to \r\n?
# [02:43] <TabAtkins> Context: textContent of an unknown element, hacked into recognition with the document.createElement shim.
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# [02:44] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: That sounds familiar, but I can't say more than that.
# [02:44] <TabAtkins> Hm, doesn't seem to help.
# [02:44] <GPHemsley> :P
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# [02:44] <GPHemsley> hey hey!
# [02:44] <TabAtkins> Not you. ^_^ Changing to .split("\r\n") doesn't help.
# [02:45] <GPHemsley> oh, heh
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# [02:56] <TabAtkins> Okay, IE does newline normalization immediately, unless it has white-space:pre.
# [02:56] <TabAtkins> So I got the newlines, now I'm just trying to figure out how to split by them...
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# [03:10] <dpranke> hixie / anyone : is there a reason why <select>, <input type="range">, and <input type="number"> don't support the "readonly" attribute?
# [03:10] <Hixie> type=number does
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# [03:11] <Hixie> <select>, <input type=range>, <input type=radio>, <button>, etc, don't, because they're not text fields.
# [03:12] <dpranke> you're right about number, sorry, I read too fast.
# [03:15] <dpranke> what's the difference between disabled and readonly? It looks like disabled is readonly plus the control doesn't receive events? Why have readonly be able to receive events?
# [03:15] <dpranke> or is there some other useful difference between disabled and readonly?
# [03:16] <Hixie> the point of readonly is to allow users to copy the text from the control
# [03:16] <TabAtkins> OMG, finally got IE to recognize a newline and split on it. The <csv> proposal marches on!
# [03:17] <dpranke> ah. okay. does it make sense to add a clarifying note to that effect to the spec, or is this common knowledge?
# [03:17] <Hixie> it's basic UI design :-)
# [03:19] <dpranke> ok, thanks!
# [03:22] * jcranmer marvels at how much space The Great Codec Wars took up in his WHATWG folder
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# [03:29] <Hixie> oh dear, othermaciej is now being dragged into actually running these meetings
# [03:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: I can live with running 1/3 of them or so
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# [03:29] <othermaciej> but yes, that was part of the cost, along with my soul
# [03:29] <Hixie> nothing says we _must_ have telecons
# [03:30] <othermaciej> I'm not going to propose canceling telecons, at least not right now
# [03:30] <Hixie> in fact our charter, rather than requiring one a week, says that we're not allowed to have _more_ than one a week
# [03:30] <Hixie> and says they should only be as needed
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# [03:30] <Hixie> it's your time :-)
# [03:30] <Hixie> you spend it as you think best :-)
# [03:30] <othermaciej> I think some of the people who attend get value out of it, and I'm willing to spend an hour of my time to give them that value
# [03:31] <othermaciej> particularly if it helps some of those people also get involved by email
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# [03:44] <othermaciej> this is kind of sad, but I'm actually proud of the way I formatted the agenda email
# [03:46] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103?changelog
# [03:47] <rubys> that action was assigned to Lachlan... but he never responded to emails checking for status.
# [03:47] <rubys> 2009-01-29 17:54:35: Owner changed to 'Lachlan Hunt' [Dan Connolly]
# [03:47] <rubys> 2009-05-07 16:10:37: Owner changed to 'Julian Reschke' [Dan Connolly]
# [03:48] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/75 is already closed
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# [04:00] <othermaciej> rubys: I'll just make those adjustments in-flight rather than confusing people by changing the agenda
# [04:00] <othermaciej> rubys: thanks!
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# [07:39] <cardona507> is there a firefox extension similar to codeburner (the firebug plug-in) for html 5?
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# [08:17] <hsivonen> looks like we have a new case of adding attributes in JS to work around validators: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1145880/can-autocapitalize-be-turned-off-with-javascript-in-mobile-safari
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# [09:18] <Lachy> dammit, why did apple feel the need to create more proprietary attributes for autocapitalize and autocorrect?!
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# [09:30] <Hixie> did printers get slower? i could have sworn that 20 years ago laserjets were printing at least as fast as the ones i'm seeing on HP's site today, and they warmed up faster at that.
# [09:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: the high end probably hasn't gotten slower but a lower end got introduced and people started bying those
# [09:31] <Hixie> where do you find the high end?
# [09:32] <Hixie> i can't even find a single 802.11x printer on HP's site
# [09:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: at Kinko's
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# [09:32] <Hixie> (laserjet printer, that is)
# [09:32] <Hixie> heh
# [09:32] <Hixie> i mean to buy :-)
# [09:33] <hsivonen> hmm. I don't know if HP has exited the high end market and left it to Xerox and Canon
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# [09:33] <hsivonen> (I don't know where to buy those)
# [09:33] <Hixie> "First color page in less than 16 seconds" $3199.99
# [09:33] <Hixie> 16 seconds?!
# [09:34] <Hixie> (HP Color LaserJet 5550dn Printer )
# [09:34] <annevk2> is that including boot-time or so?
# [09:34] <annevk2> and 3200 for a printer is a lot
# [09:35] <Hixie> yes and yes
# [09:35] <Hixie> for $3199.99 i expect my printer to be printing before i ask it to
# [09:37] * annevk2 has a EUR 80 (or less, don't really remember) black/white-laserjet that he almost never needs
# [09:38] <Lachy> I gave up on owning a printer. My old, affordable, inkjet printers kept drying out cause I don't print frequently enough, and when I do, I just do it at the office
# [09:39] <Hixie> yeah this isn't for me
# [09:39] <Hixie> i haven't printed in like a decade
# [09:41] <Hixie> what are the quality printer manufacturers these days? is HP still it?
# [09:41] <Lachy> Hixie, is it intended for personal use by whoever you're getting it for, or office use?
# [09:41] <Hixie> what's the difference?
# [09:42] <Lachy> different feature requirements
# [09:42] <annevk2> Hixie, canon is also ok, not sure about laserjet
# [09:43] <Lachy> like, an office printer would probably need an ethernet connection and be optimised for network setup, whereas personal use might not need that
# [09:44] <annevk2> for network setup you could always buy one of those apple thingies
# [09:44] <annevk2> with a usb-in
# [09:44] <Hixie> the requirements are: high quality (laser jet), network printer using 802.11g or n, color, automatic double-sided printing, fast per page and fast from cold.
# [09:44] <Hixie> and reliable.
# [09:44] <Lachy> annevk2, the Airport Extreme or possibly Airport Express
# [09:44] <Hixie> i'd rather it have built in networking
# [09:46] <Hixie> HP doesn't have a printer that meets those requirements.
# [09:46] <annevk2> i've no experience at all with such beasts
# [09:46] <Hixie> at least not according to their site.
# [09:46] <Lachy> Hixie, so just printing, and no need for scanner/copier/fax functions?
# [09:46] <annevk2> my printer is in the closet and I take it out every couple of months to print some stupid expense report
# [09:46] <Hixie> right
# [09:48] <Lachy> Hixie, http://www.brother-usa.com/Printer/ModelDetail.aspx?ProductID=HL4070CDW
# [09:49] <Hixie> looks interesting
# [09:49] <Lachy> still 17 seconds for first print though
# [09:49] <Lachy> for colour
# [09:49] <Philip`> annevk2: You should use a commercial printing service for that, and then charge it on expenses
# [09:50] <Hixie> yeah, still slow though
# [09:50] <Hixie> both starting up and printing
# [09:50] <Lachy> you consider 21ppm slow?
# [09:51] <Lachy> that's 1 page every 3 seconds
# [09:52] <Hixie> that's not faster than 20 years ago
# [09:52] <annevk2> Philip`, I'll ask for your advice next time :)
# [09:52] <Hixie> so yes, i consider that slow
# [09:52] <annevk2> Philip`, meanwhile, charset stats? :)
# [09:52] <Lachy> so how many pages per minute are you expecting?
# [09:52] <annevk2> Hixie, is this how you remember 20 years ago?
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# [09:52] <Hixie> annevk2: :-P
# [09:52] <Philip`> Does anybody give double-sided printing speeds?
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# [09:53] * hsivonen only has a printer for paper-based accounting use cases
# [09:54] * Philip` presumes 21ppm is one-sided, because all printers he's seen do double-sided make the paper go backwards and forwards lots of times before popping out and it takes forever
# [09:54] <hsivonen> though when it exists, it can occasionally be used for printing train tickets
# [09:55] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, agreed
# [09:55] <Lachy> http://www.office.xerox.com/printers/color-printers/phaser-7760/enus.html
# [09:56] <Lachy> 35ppm for colour
# [09:56] <Lachy> 45ppm for black
# [09:56] <Lachy> "First-page-out time as fast as 9 seconds for color"
# [09:57] <Lachy> Is that fast enough?
# [09:57] <annevk2> no wifi though
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# [09:58] <Lachy> yeah, but I was only searching for speed to see if it was possible to find anything at all fast enough for Hixie
# [09:58] <Hixie> Lachy: hmm, that's better than i've seen so far
# [09:59] <Lachy> Hixie, "With print speeds of up to 35 pages per minute for colour and 45 ppm for black and white and a first-page-out time of nine seconds for colour, the Phaser is considered one of the fastest printers in its class. " -- http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-158653373.html
# [09:59] <jgraham> Maybe there is a limit to how fast you can physically pull paper through a printer without bad side effects
# [10:01] <jgraham> Anyway we had some Xerox phaser thing when I was doing my PhD and it seemed OK. It got used a lot and didn't break down often or anything
# [10:01] <Hixie> cool
# [10:02] <Hixie> good to know what the top of the line is, at least
# [10:02] <jgraham> Colour reprodution was pretty poor. Dunno how fast it was or anything
# [10:02] <hsivonen> are there color lasers whose color reproduction doesn't suck?
# [10:02] * hsivonen thought color lasers were for printing powerpoint slides
# [10:03] <hsivonen> and ad bureaus and the like used slower and more expensive non-laser stuff
# [10:03] <jgraham> In this case they were for printing science papers where relative colour tends to be more important than absolute colour
# [10:03] <jgraham> s/they were/it was/
# [10:03] <Hixie> yeah if you want to do something where colour really matters, you do ink jets, i think
# [10:04] <Hixie> but then if i'm printing photos, i'm gonna be using a photo printing shop
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# [10:04] <hsivonen> are wax printers still on the market?
# [10:05] <Hixie> is that "solid ink"?
# [10:05] <jgraham> 9we were very licky to have a good colour printer at all; it was only because my group had seperate funding from the rest of the department. The department colour laserjet _really_ sucked)
# [10:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: could be. I don't know.
# [10:06] <jgraham> s/9/(/ and s/licky/lucky/
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# [10:41] <Mrmil> I hate IE
# [10:42] <krijnh> High five!
# [10:43] <Mrmil> Highway to Hell
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# [11:12] <hsivonen> I'm puzzled. With my latest HTML5 parser refactoring, jquery on http://webtrendmap.com/craigmod/161/ dies due to document.body being null
# [11:12] <hsivonen> I wonder how that can happen
# [11:12] <gsnedders> Because there's a bug.
# [11:12] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Script in <head> before body is created?
# [11:13] <hsivonen> Dashiva: jquery is in head, yes
# [11:13] <hsivonen> Dashiva: but it works without the HTML5 parser refactoring
# [11:13] <hsivonen> I wonder if I've accidentally caused onload or DOMContentLoaded to fire prematurely or something like that
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# [11:16] <gsnedders> I think you should never fire them.
# [11:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: You miss Philip`?
# [11:18] <gsnedders> Huh?
# [11:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: No, it's my Swedish Mummy, Daddy, and Nanny I miss :P
# [11:18] <jgraham> Well you have started filling in the "useless suggestions" role
# [11:18] <gsnedders> I've always done that quite a bit, though.
# [11:20] <hsivonen> sigh. I have a crash, too.
# [11:20] <hsivonen> how hard can it be to move some code around?
# [11:21] <gsnedders> Very.
# [11:21] <hsivonen> refcounting is a house of cards
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# [11:23] <hsivonen> apparently moving code around is fairly easy, but splitting one refcounted object into many is a can of worms
# [11:23] <annevk2> xmlns issue still unadressed
# [11:24] <annevk2> are these people just incompetent at XML namespaces while happily using them?
# [11:24] <gsnedders> annevk2: Then I guess we can free it
# [11:24] <hsivonen> annevk2: in the RDFa draft?
# [11:24] <annevk2> yes
# [11:24] <Philip`> gsnedders: You don't miss me? :-(
# [11:24] <gsnedders> Philip`: Sorry, but jgraham just means so much more to me.
# [11:24] <annevk2> it has been raised like a bazillion times
# [11:25] <annevk2> my last email on this subject never had a reply I think
# [11:25] <annevk2> I think they just don't get it
# [11:25] <Philip`> Their response to http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-in-html-issues#Script-based_modification_of_DOM (further down that page) seems to miss the issue with that example
# [11:25] <annevk2> I guess if you don't get XML namespaces they look all nice and dandy :)
# [11:25] <hsivonen> annevk2: usually, if one "gets" namespaces, one wants to avoid them
# [11:25] * Philip` should probably look at this again some time, and try to clarify what still seems to be a problem
# [11:25] <annevk2> right :)
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# [11:30] <annevk2> ah, othermaciej raised the issue as well and manu didn't get it
# [11:31] <annevk2> he in fact simply snipped that comment from othermaciej's review
# [11:31] <othermaciej> did he?
# [11:31] <othermaciej> I thought he replied to that point (and I replied back)
# [11:32] <othermaciej> it also looks like he pasted my comments about xmlns in text/html into the wiki
# [11:32] <annevk2> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0082.html in 4.3 your point about the DOM being different is no longer there
# [11:32] <othermaciej> it is here though: http://rdfa.info/wiki/Html5-rdfa-wd-issues#4.2_Invalid_XMLLiteral_values
# [11:33] <othermaciej> er
# [11:33] <othermaciej> not in the 4.2 section
# [11:33] <othermaciej> but you know what I mean
# [11:33] <othermaciej> he only directly replied to a few of my points and recorded the rest on the wiki
# [11:33] <annevk2> i see
# [11:34] <othermaciej> if you look at my further email, what XHTML+RDFa says about prefix binding is broken even for XML
# [11:34] <annevk2> his reply still shows misunderstanding of the issue but I guess they're working on that then...
# [11:35] <annevk2> i love it that such crap comes from the same people who claim XML is easy
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# [11:37] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I suspect RDFa is layered on top of XML 1.0--not on top of XML 1.0 + Namespaces
# [11:38] <othermaciej> hsivonen: does that negate the error I pointed out in its rules about prefix bindings?
# [11:38] <hsivonen> othermaciej: which is a pretty fundamental layering violation but gets an applause, because it looks like it's layered on top of Namespaces
# [11:38] <othermaciej> (I don't think it does)
# [11:39] <annevk2> hsivonen, that cannot be for real
# [11:39] <annevk2> hsivonen, RDFa also references XMLNS
# [11:39] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I think what you said stands
# [11:40] <othermaciej> RDFa cites XMLNS, I am not sure what aspect makes it layered on top of XML 1.0
# [11:40] <hsivonen> annevk2: I guess I need to look up an email from Mark Birbeck
# [11:41] <othermaciej> the text I cited does seem to be treating XML namespace declarations as just ordinary attributes, but that seems to be just a symptom of its generally wrong use of terminology
# [11:41] <Philip`> hsivonen: I thought the idea is it's layered on XHTML (1.1 or Modularization or something), which is layered on Namespaces to some extent
# [11:42] <Philip`> (though not to a particularly well defined extent)
# [11:42] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/mid/4A291657.9020805@cam.ac.uk
# [11:42] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I think it's a symptom of not layering the spec over Namespace but using xmlns as a trompe-l’œil
# [11:43] <othermaciej> it would probably make more sense for it to cite Namespaces in XML for namespace scoping instead of having its own rule for how to do it
# [11:43] <Philip`> It might partly come from viewing XML documents as strings which follow a certain grammar, instead of as a DOM/Infoset-like tree
# [11:43] <annevk2> hsivonen, ah yeah, it does do that
# [11:43] <othermaciej> although that would mean more work to define how it works in text/html
# [11:44] <Philip`> (The XML spec itself seems to be designed from the string viewpoint)
# [11:44] <annevk2> Philip`, which is weird at least for <?xml encoding="..."
# [11:45] <hsivonen> annevk2: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0109.html
# [11:45] <othermaciej> anyway, I'm glad Manu put forth a technical proposal this time instead of a procedural one, even if it seems like it needs work
# [11:46] <hsivonen> gotta go to lunch
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# [11:47] <hsivonen> just got Snow Leopard in the mail. I wonder if I should wait until 10.6.1 before I install...
# [11:47] <othermaciej> it seems like they could just use the "Namespaces in XML" definition of namespace prefixes in scope, even if they use the prefixes for non-namespace reasons
# [11:48] <othermaciej> 10.6.0 is better than the average 10.n.0
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# [11:49] <othermaciej> it seems like HTML+RDFa needs to make @rev and various other attributes conforming
# [11:50] <Philip`> It probably needs to do something similar to what's in http://philip.html5.org/docs/rdfa/
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# [11:51] <Philip`> (except probably without copying-and-pasting the RDFa-in-XHTML processing model, because duplication is bad)
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# [11:51] <Philip`> (and the issues with e.g. precisely defined attribute parsing apply to XHTML as much as to HTML)
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# [11:56] <othermaciej> Philip`: that draft looks much more precise, despite its unfinished state
# [11:56] <othermaciej> Philip`: might be good to point out that draft on the list
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# [11:57] <Philip`> I wonder if I should try rewriting it to remove the duplication of the processing model, since that seemed to be the main objection to it
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# [11:59] * Philip` could probably attempt that this afternoon
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# [12:03] <othermaciej> Philip`: if you have the time to pursue it, then I would encourage you to pursue that and post the draft
# [12:03] <alkarin> greetings everybody
# [12:03] * alkarin posts: http://kunter.posterous.com/html-5-super-concerns
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# [12:13] <beowulf> is it worth saying that <dialog> should allow <li> rather that <dt><dd>, or if no <dialog> then the old advice of using <dl> for dialog should be updated to allow <li>?
# [12:14] <annevk2> it's prolly better to start from scratch if you want to do something different
# [12:14] <alkarin> unless one of us not planning to unleash a chat server or a walky-talky page, I think most designer will straight pass this dialog idea.
# [12:14] <annevk2> because it's unclear what use cases everyone has in mind
# [12:14] <alkarin> : concurs.
# [12:14] <beowulf> annevk2: my use case is krijnh's logs
# [12:15] <annevk2> i think just like for footnotes the spec should just give a few ideas on how you can mark such things up
# [12:15] <alkarin> if we are to avoid DIV tags because they are regarded as unambigious, then we'll need to have a hundred more
# [12:15] <annevk2> instead of dedicating an element to it
# [12:16] <annevk2> or like tag clouds
# [12:16] <beowulf> annevk2: sounds fair
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# [12:25] <erlehmann> beowulf, can you tell me again how several people saying the same thing could be conveyed with ordered lists ?
# [12:25] <erlehmann> beowulf, also got around to researching the alledged small screen rendering issues ?
# [12:26] <erlehmann> annevk2, i was thinking footnotes were <aside> ?
# [12:28] <erlehmann> i'll probably style them as small inline text or expandable inline container (with :hover and :focus) as long as CSS hasn't footnote / endnote capabilities
# [12:33] <annevk2> erlehmann, not always
# [12:38] <erlehmann> annevk2, can you clarify the other possibilities ?
# [12:40] <annevk2> see spec
# [12:43] <beowulf> erlehmann: surely i only need to tell you once, then you accept or deny my claim
# [12:44] <erlehmann> beowulf, curse your sudden and inevitable dialog-hate :D
# [12:45] <beowulf> erlehmann: i no longer work for dotmobi so getting access to the test suite isn't easy, but as i recall default styling on dd's creates an indent that makes viewing content difficult due to the shortened measure.
# [12:45] <erlehmann> oh, its that
# [12:45] <erlehmann> but its only default styiling
# [12:46] <beowulf> that's all some mobile have
# [12:46] <beowulf> mobiles
# [12:46] <erlehmann> o.0
# [12:46] <beowulf> i did say low end
# [12:46] <erlehmann> then speak to mobile browser vendors ?
# [12:47] <beowulf> lol
# [12:47] <erlehmann> i must admit, i have not heard of the low-end you are talking about. i tried WAP and went straight to smartfones that CAN do CSS
# [12:47] <beowulf> cool
# [12:47] <erlehmann> but bad default styling is not something to be said against an element, but against an implementation, amiwrong?
# [12:48] <beowulf> i did say this wasn't a big issue with dt/dd in dialog
# [12:48] <beowulf> a corner case i'd say
# [12:48] <beowulf> a corner of a corner case
# [12:49] <erlehmann> so whats the big issue then ? chatlogs surely are markup-able in <dialog>s
# [12:50] <erlehmann> maybe the timestamp thingy needs more consideration. <time> elements in dialogs seem nice
# [12:50] <beowulf> the issue for me is it's not clear how you'd mark up a join, away, part, quit, disconnect, netsplit, nickchange, status change, etc in a dt/dd
# [12:50] <erlehmann> besides, i can envision an XML transform to convert an XMPP stream into <dialog>
# [12:51] <beowulf> but i don't think anyone cares enough about dialog, so... :)
# [12:51] <erlehmann> beowulf, i believe you are looking for something completely different than anyone else. <dialog> seems to be a natural conversation
# [12:51] <erlehmann> like, a play
# [12:51] <erlehmann> OH ROMEO
# [12:51] <erlehmann> etc.
# [12:51] <beowulf> exeunt
# [12:52] <beowulf> romeo and juliet in dt/dd would be horrible
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# [12:53] <Binarytales> could you not just do <dialog><dt class"joins"><time>12:46</time>Dave</dt>..... or <dialog><time>12:46</time><span class="action">joined</span>Dave</dt>
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# [12:53] <Binarytales> there are too many different "actions" to give them a special attribute or tag
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# [12:54] <erlehmann> Binarytales, i would break from the dialog and describe the actions in a simple paragraph
# [12:55] <erlehmann> maybe <p> inside <dialog> should be allowed ?
# [12:56] <Binarytales> yeah that would make sense, especially for longer things like stage directions for plays or describing non dialougue souns or actions in transcriptts
# [12:56] <Binarytales> IRC always turns my typing to mush :(
# [12:57] <erlehmann> i'll type a mail to the list
# [12:58] <beowulf> <section item id=dialog>...</section>
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# [13:00] <Binarytales> I'm guessing the same rules apply to dialouge that do to dl so that if multiple people say the same thing at the same time then you could use multiple dt for the same dd
# [13:00] <hsivonen> <dialog> is doing great at stopping permathreads...
# [13:01] <Binarytales> oh..... "Zero or more pairs of one dt element followed by one dd element."
# [13:01] <Binarytales> i think that should be the same as a dl
# [13:01] <Binarytales> "Zero or more groups each consisting of one or more dt elements followed by one or more dd elements."
# [13:02] <Binarytales> then if <p> was allowed you should be able to do <dt>Dave</dt><dd>Hmmm....</dd><p>he goes to the window</p><dd>I hadn't though of that</dd>
# [13:07] <Binarytales> I also think that dt's in dialogue should be allowed the datetime attribute
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# [13:13] <Hixie> I simply cannot find a full duplex, wifi-enabled, mac-compatible, color printer with a good consumables story and that isn't really slow for under $2000.
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# [13:14] <jgraham> Hixie: What is your use case that requires > 20ppm but is used infrequently enough that cold start up time is a major issue?
# [13:14] <Hixie> it doesn't have to be > 20ppm really
# [13:14] <Hixie> the use case is me not tearing my hair out if i want to print something
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# [13:15] <Hixie> i expect my hardware to do what i tell it to, when i tell it
# [13:15] <Hixie> not three minutes later
# [13:15] <Hixie> some of these printers have multi-minute boot times
# [13:15] <Hixie> my fricking _computers_ don't take that long to boot
# [13:15] <annevk2> I thought it was not for you? :)
# [13:16] <Hixie> it isn't, but i know who's going to end up doing the drafting for the work that does get printed
# [13:16] <Hixie> :-)
# [13:17] <Hixie> the Brother HL 4070CDW is the only one that matches the criteria on paper for under $2000, but it apparently does a horrible job of consumables
# [13:17] <Hixie> it literally has a page count after which it just claims the toner is empty
# [13:17] <Hixie> rather than actually caring about whether there really is toner left
# [13:17] <annevk2> i'm sure people hacked that :)
# [13:18] <Hixie> i shouldn't need to hack my printer to make it work right
# [13:18] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if my Brother laser printer does that. I've never had to change the toner
# [13:18] <Dashiva> What if you drop wifi-enabled?
# [13:19] <hsivonen> isn't hacking a toner cartridge a DMCA violation these days or something?
# [13:19] <Hixie> if i drop wifi-enabled, there's a number of printers, such as the Phaser 8560/DN, that look rather nice
# [13:19] <Hixie> but wifi-enabled without an external dongle is not something i want to drop
# [13:20] <Hixie> the Canon Color imageRUNNER LBP5975 looks pretty nice and has (optional) built-in wifi, but it costs about $3000.
# [13:20] <annevk2> don't you have an Apple router of some sorts with usb-in?
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# [13:20] * annevk2 thought everyone had an Airport Express these days
# [13:20] <Hixie> the room i'm putting this in has no networking at all
# [13:20] <hsivonen> I learned recently that sometimes it pays to accept external dongles even though they suck
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# [13:21] <Dashiva> Still, a dongle seems preferable to $1000 or more in extra price
# [13:21] <annevk2> airport express just requires electricity
# [13:21] <Hixie> (and i honestly do not believe that the airport extreme with a usb port on the back is going to work that well)
# [13:21] <hsivonen> my parents bought a silly expensive TV in order to have a built-in DVR
# [13:21] <Hixie> (e.g. can i print from linux to an airport extreme?)
# [13:21] <annevk2> Hixie, you don't need extreme
# [13:21] <jgraham> It seems like an external router might be worth it for a saving of $1000
# [13:21] <hsivonen> after hardware and firmware upgrades they returned it
# [13:21] <fupp> where can I find docs on the treewalker in html5lib?
# [13:21] <Hixie> s/airport extreme/airport express/, sorry
# [13:21] <hsivonen> because the firmware upgrade to make parts of it work regressed more essential features
# [13:21] <annevk2> Hixie, I've never tried that, but I think there are ways to make it work for Linux
# [13:21] <Dashiva> Let printers be printers and TVs be TVs :)
# [13:22] <Hixie> annevk2: my willingless to spend time making things work is minimal
# [13:22] <Hixie> annevk2: i expect to plug the printer into a power outlet, and be able to print.
# [13:22] <jgraham> fupp: If there aren't any on the wiki page (http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/ ) they probably don't exist
# [13:22] <jgraham> There should be some there though
# [13:23] <jgraham> Hixie: Ah, I see you really haven't used a printer for 10 years
# [13:23] <fupp> jgraham: there was a small example, but only how to create the treewalker, I didn't find anything about what method it has
# [13:23] <jgraham> fupp: It's an iterator. So you can do for item in tw: print item
# [13:23] <Hixie> jgraham: it seems to work that way at work, with the network printers there
# [13:23] <jgraham> Hixie: I assume google has sysadmins and stuff
# [13:24] <Hixie> well, if the printer comes with a sysadmin in the box that's fine too
# [13:24] <fupp> jgraham: okay, thanks
# [13:24] <jgraham> I guess you need to pay a lot more to get that :)
# [13:25] <annevk2> might be illegal too
# [13:25] <fupp> is there a way to use filters like with the DOM2 TreeWalker?
# [13:26] <Lachy_> Hixie, an ethernet enabled network printer plugged into a port on a wireless router (as opposed to a USB printer plugged into an airport express) that is configured to extend your existing network would probably suit your needs
# [13:27] <jgraham> fupp: There are a few filters provided, you can look at them. You don't need a specific api because you can just use a generator function
# [13:27] <Hixie> Lachy_: yeah, though then i need to add yet another router to the network
# [13:27] <jgraham> function filter(node): yield node is the identity filter
# [13:27] <Hixie> my home network is complicated enough already that i had to draw a network map to figure it out
# [13:28] <Lachy_> Hixie, that's not really much of a problem if it's just set up in bridge mode
# [13:29] <Lachy_> I have 3 routers in my home network
# [13:29] * Hixie wonders what the difference is between a "HP Jetdirect ew2400 External Wireless Print Server" and a "HP Wireless G USB Print Server" is
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# [13:53] <Philip`> "External Wireless"
# [13:53] <Philip`> Can you get a printer that's internally wireless too?
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# [13:54] <gsnedders> Hixie: Correct solution: don't print.
# [13:54] <Philip`> You could get rid of the circuit boards and just have every chip communicate via wifi
# [13:55] <Lachy> Philip`, that depends what is meant by "External Wireless", and what you mean by "internally wireless"
# [13:55] <Hixie> gsnedders: yeah that's my choice too
# [13:55] <Lachy> if you mean, containing no wires, rather than having an internal wifi connection, then no
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# [14:00] <Hixie> can an airport express be used as a bridge to connect an _ethernet_ printer to the network?
# [14:00] <Hixie> as opposed to usb?
# [14:00] <Hixie> or is the ethernet port on the express only for uplink to the internet
# [14:01] <Hixie> i'm thinking an HP Color LaserJet CP3525dn is probably my best choice, with a router to get it on the network.
# [14:01] * jgraham wonders why Hixie wants a fancy apple thing rather than a common or garden router
# [14:01] <Hixie> well if it works, it's a whole heck of a lot easier to maintain than other routers
# [14:02] <annevk2> Hixie, you should ask your employer, it pointed me to http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=92055
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# [14:02] <Hixie> my experience with forums is that you guys are more reliable :-P
# [14:03] <annevk2> we do sometimes get people join this channel with highly off-topic questions of things discussed in the past :)
# [14:03] <Philip`> http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2009-September/000341.html ("X3D - HTML 5 minutes Sept. 01, 2009")
# [14:04] * Philip` isn't sure what those people actually want to do
# [14:05] <Hixie> i guess i'll plug my laptop into my existing airport express and see if that works
# [14:05] <Binarytales> what about ethernet over powerlines. my brother uses it for his xbox and it works like a charm, the adapter are pretty inexpesive too, a lot cheaper than an airport
# [14:06] <annevk2> Philip`, literally reading that it seems they want to obsolete <embed> and give X3D the same kind of support as SVG
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# [14:07] <Hixie> Binarytales: dunno if that'll work for me, our power setup is ancient and not at all something i'd trust with data
# [14:07] <Philip`> annevk2: As far as I'm aware they only care about XHTML, not text/html
# [14:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: should <video> use MIMESNIFF rules?
# [14:08] <Binarytales> we have it working on wiring that was done the 60's and its stable enough for xbox live
# [14:08] <Hixie> zcorpan: not currently
# [14:08] <Philip`> (or maybe they don't realise the distinction)
# [14:08] <Hixie> Binarytales: ah, interesting. what products should i be looking at? maybe it's worth a try
# [14:08] <Philip`> Does Ethernet over powerlines work during powercuts?
# [14:09] <Hixie> my wifi network won't work during powercuts
# [14:09] <Hixie> so that point is moot
# [14:09] * jgraham has heard that the reliability of ethernet over powerlines is widely variable depending on the wiring of your house and can have unexpected interference if you try to e.g. make toast
# [14:10] <Philip`> You can solve that by switching to a battery-powered toaster
# [14:10] <Hixie> ok well i'll look into the networking part of this tomorrow
# [14:10] <Hixie> i must sleep now
# [14:10] <Hixie> thanks for the help
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# [14:15] <jgraham> Does WebIDL have anything to say about what should happen if I do something like __lookupGetter__ or __defineSetter__ on a DOM object?
# [14:15] <jgraham> heycam: ^
# [14:16] * jgraham is hoping someone more familiar than him with WebIDL will know since the spec is quite dense and it is possible he has missed something
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# [14:28] <hsivonen> why are the X3D folks keen on getting rid of <embed>?
# [14:28] <heycam> jgraham, no it doesn't
# [14:28] <heycam> i should probably get around to making webidl relevant for ES5 kinda things like that
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# [14:31] <Philip`> hsivonen: Probably because of the reasons in the bottom of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1220.html
# [14:32] <hsivonen> I don't see why it would be productive to ask Flash embedding snippet generators to change
# [14:32] <hsivonen> but then, I don't see why it's productive to ask Java applet embedding snippet generators to change, either
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# [14:34] <Philip`> (My assumption that those are the relevant reasons is because they come from an X3D person, rather than because they're necessarily good reasons)
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# [14:36] <Lachy> Is <object> even capable of doing everything needed to embed an applet, that <applet> can do?
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# [14:37] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'm not sure, but HTML5-compatible <object> for Java has near-non-existent documentation while <applet> has plenty
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# [14:37] <hsivonen> http://webtrendmap.com/craigmod/161/ is such a pain to debug
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# [14:51] <hsivonen> so far I've figured that the jquery crasher is due to OnLocationChange running differently
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# [14:51] * annevk3 wonders why Sam is playing games regarding <keygen>
# [14:51] <Creap> How does 'required' work on checkboxes?
# [14:53] <Creap> Is it required to be changed, or to be checked
# [14:53] <Creap> oh, nevermind, I missed a note
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# [14:53] <Creap> "If the element is required and its checkedness is false, then the element is suffering from being missing."
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# [14:55] <Lachy> hsivonen, yeah, I know I argued to have <applet> added to HTML5 as conforming once. I can't remember the reason Hixie rejected it
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# [14:58] <Lachy> we should make keygen non-conforming, and just keep the implementation requirements in the spec for now
# [14:59] * Philip` guesses making <keygen> optional would make Microsoft happy, since then they wouldn't have to intentionally violate the spec, and it would still be documented for everyone else who wants to bother implementing it
# [14:59] <Lachy> given that it's a really badly designed feature, we should do as much as possible to discourage its use, rather than encourage it by making it conforming
# [15:00] <Lachy> Philip`, I didn't say we should make it optional. Just make it a document conformance error to use it.
# [15:00] <hsivonen> Lachy: the reason basically boils down to <applet> being specific to Java while <embed> isn't specific to Flash in theory
# [15:01] <Lachy> hsivonen, that sounds like an argument from theoretical purity, in spite of practicality
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# [15:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: ^
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# [15:36] <markhuot> Wow, I have to say that HTML5 worried me with all the element confusion. But now that I've found custom data attributes I think I may be in love: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#embedding-custom-non-visible-data
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# [15:41] <miketaylr> markhuot: for reals.
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# [15:43] <hsivonen> markhuot: what element confusion are you referring to? <footer>?
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# [15:48] <markhuot> hsivonen: yea, FOOTER and ASIDE really.
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# [15:49] <markhuot> Actually, I think TabAtkins was going to make a post about it the other day. Does anyone know where that would have been posted, if it was?
# [15:49] <TabAtkins> Yo.
# [15:49] <TabAtkins> I sent it in the thread I'm currently responding to, I think.
# [15:49] * TabAtkins scans...
# [15:50] <TabAtkins> "Implementor feedback on new elements in HTML5". 16 hours ago.
# [15:51] <markhuot> Hey there TabAtkins. Ah, thanks. I've been reading the archives up until now, I guess I should bite the bullet and subscribe though so I'm not a few days behind all the time.
# [15:51] <Philip`> You could just increase your polling frequency on the archives
# [15:51] <TabAtkins> 250ms should be sufficient.
# [15:52] <markhuot> :) Now that sounds like just the ticket.
# [15:52] <Philip`> Opera is good for that since you can bind the archives to a speed-dial button, and whenever you're bored or distracted (i.e. every five minutes, at least when I did this) you can compulsively hit the key to view the archives for any nice blue unread links
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# [15:54] <gsnedders> (So be careful)
# [15:55] <TabAtkins> Since Hixie explained it, though, I'm cool with <aside>. I'm proposing an amendment to the spec text for it right now for the list. <footer> is still no good as written.
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# [15:55] <markhuot> Ah, I'm going back and reading Hixie's explanation of ASIDE now.
# [15:56] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the generalization of "tangential to content" to "tangential to page" was not one I was comfortable making as an informed author.
# [15:56] <TabAtkins> Which is ironic, since it's precisely the reasoning I used at first when I tried to use <aside> as a sidebar.
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# [15:59] * gsnedders sighs at h2g2
# [15:59] <markhuot> It can be confusing though. However, reading through Hixie's explanation seems to clear things up a bit…
# [16:00] <miketaylr> markhuot: can you post a link to that? i'd like to read it as well
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# [16:01] <Philip`> gsnedders: The book, or the web site?
# [16:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: The web site
# [16:03] <Lachy> TabAtkins, you should just give in and use aside for a sidebar as it was initially designed
# [16:04] <TabAtkins> Lachy: I have. ^_^ Which is why I'm now proposing an amendment to the spec text, to make that clear again.
# [16:04] <gsnedders> http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A184060
# [16:04] <Lachy> TabAtkins, have you sent the proposal, or still writing it?
# [16:05] <TabAtkins> Writing it now.
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# [16:05] <Philip`> h2g2 is like a cross between Wikipedia and Uncyclopedia
# [16:07] <TabAtkins> It reminds me of everything2 (IIRC the name).
# [16:07] <gsnedders> "Possibly the best place to meet someone [for a first date] is a record shop - you can always browse the shelves while you're waiting, and if you get stood up you can at least pick up a few bargains in the process."
# [16:08] <Lachy> how does anyone get h2g2 as an abbreviation for "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"? - http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/dontpanic-tour
# [16:08] <TabAtkins> HitchHikers Guide to the Galaxy
# [16:08] <TabAtkins> Clearly inferior as an abbreviation, but shrug.
# [16:08] <gsnedders> (note the two words beginning to t, too)
# [16:08] <Lachy> oh. That's the most obscure abbreviation ever
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# [16:08] <Lachy> and Hitchhiker's is written as one word
# [16:08] <TabAtkins> Yeah, took me forever to realize what it meant when the movie was coming out.
# [16:09] <Lachy> I don't remember that abbr being used for the movie
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# [16:24] <TabAtkins> Hrm. I doubt it's possible for a Location-header redirect to take advantage of the <base> url...
# [16:24] <Lachy> With all the discussion about how temperature doesn't really have an upper bound (in the <meter> thread), someone should inform thermometer manufacturers that they're doing things wrongly by limiting their gauges between, e.g. -20 and 60˚C (for outdoor weather thermometers)
# [16:25] <TabAtkins> Already hit that. ^_^
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# [16:25] <TabAtkins> Anyway, you eventually run out of entropy - a given system *does* technically have an upper bound.
# [16:26] <TabAtkins> Albeit in high exponentials.
# [16:27] <Lachy> TabAtkins, that depends if you accept the hypothesis of their being an Absolute Hot, at the opposite end of the scale from Absolute Zero
# [16:27] <TabAtkins> No, it's a theorem based on thermodynamics.
# [16:27] <Philip`> What if you have a meter showing the temperature of the universe, updating dynamically with t moving towards 0?
# [16:27] <TabAtkins> Where temperature is correlated with entropy, and a given system has a maximum level of entropy.
# [16:28] <TabAtkins> Philip` <progress toward=heat-death>?
# [16:28] <jcranmer> I thought temperature was enthalpy, not entropy
# [16:28] <TabAtkins> jcranmer: Different formulation of entropy.
# [16:28] <jcranmer> t = time or temperature, Philip` ?
# [16:28] <TabAtkins> temperature is T, not t.
# [16:28] <Philip`> t = time
# [16:28] <Lachy> I struggle with the concept of entropy already. I don't even know what enthalpy is.
# [16:28] <Philip`> (Sorry, I assumed that was obvious :-p )
# [16:28] <jcranmer> at the big bang, the temperature was.. er..
# [16:28] <Philip`> so heat-death is the wrong end of the universe
# [16:29] <TabAtkins> Buh, sorry. Missed the t->0 bit.
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# [16:32] <TabAtkins> Ah, good. Turns out I store the <base href> in the db with the site info anyway.
# [16:32] <Lachy> so at t = (0 + 1/infinity), at the instant the universe began expanding, all the energy of the universe was condenced into such a small, hot region of plasma, that would be the hottest possible temperature in this universe. Is that right?
# [16:32] <TabAtkins> Given an appropriately rigorous definition of an infinitesimal moment from the singularity, yeah.
# [16:33] <Philip`> Given the assumption that physics works at that time too
# [16:33] <TabAtkins> I think we can't reason about it if we don't assume physics still works.
# [16:33] <Philip`> (which it doesn't, as far as I'm aware)
# [16:33] <Philip`> s/physics/known models of physics/
# [16:33] <TabAtkins> *At* the singularity we lose it, but not *just afeter*.
# [16:33] <Lachy> so is that the same as the theoretical Absolute Hot? Or if some hypothetical universe began with more engergy than this one, would it be hotter?
# [16:34] <TabAtkins> Some stuff just works weird at those energy levels.
# [16:34] <TabAtkins> Lachy: under that definition, Absolute Hot is universe-specific.
# [16:34] <TabAtkins> Under the definition I was referring to before (the weird thermodynamic one) you can actually achieve Absolute Hot in the lab, and then wrap right back around to negative temperatures.
# [16:35] <TabAtkins> That is to say, you can overflow temperature itself. ^_^
# [16:35] <Lachy> Philip`, I'm using a hypothetical model of physics in which the issues of general relativity and quantum mechanics have been resolved into a unified theory of everything.
# [16:36] <Philip`> How are you defining the notion of temperature in that model?
# [16:36] <TabAtkins> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature
# [16:36] <TabAtkins> Like that.
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# [16:39] <Lachy> Philip`, if I knew that, my model wouldn't be hypothetical.
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# [16:40] <TabAtkins> Philip` something like energy density is probably a good idea there.
# [16:40] <Philip`> Lachy: If you don't know what temperature is, it's hard to work out whether there's a maximum value for it
# [16:40] * TabAtkins notes that this becomes confused with the gauge changes, though...
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# [17:12] <TabAtkins> All right, just sent proposal for <aside>. After thinking about it, I don't think the text itself really needs to change, so I suggested an additional example that makes it clear that website sidebars are appropriate uses of the element.
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# [17:29] <cardona507> forgive me if this is phrased wrong- are touch gestures supported in html 5?
# [17:29] <cardona507> multi-touch
# [17:31] <inimino> cardona507: that would be more a feature of browsers, not of HTML
# [17:31] <cardona507> wouldn't the spec be the place to clearly define it so that the browsers implement it uniformly - or is that wishful thinking?
# [17:31] <markhuot> inimino: not necessarily, there would probably need to be events for "pinch" (as an example)
# [17:34] <Philip`> Sounds like more of a Web Apps WG thing
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# [18:04] <TabAtkins> Breadcrumbs: <nav> or not?
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# [18:05] <beowulf> <pwd>...</pwd>
# [18:05] <TabAtkins> Ah, of course.
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# [18:32] <markhuot> beowulf, was that serious? I don't see any reference to a PWD element…
# [18:32] <TabAtkins> Nah, that was a joke. ^_^
# [18:33] <markhuot> :) Darn, it made so much sense though ;-)
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> pwd on a linux box lists the current path
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> Hehe.
# [18:33] <markhuot> Yup, yup. It made perfect sense to me. I'd love a PWD just for bread crumbs and the like.
# [18:34] <TabAtkins> Really, though, breadcrumbs are just a nav. But are they primary enough to be <nav> is the question.
# [18:34] <TabAtkins> I'm gonna lean toward yes.
# [18:34] <TabAtkins> Because otherwise I'm splitting hairs way too finely for my taste.
# [18:35] <markhuot> Hum, I'd lead towards no, only because I wouldn't want duplicate NAV items point to the About page (for example).
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# [18:35] <markhuot> But that's a personal preference thing I think. Not the fault of the spec's definition of NAV.
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# [18:38] <markhuot> Philip`, to go way way back to what you said about the Web Apps WG, I was simply saying that if the spec includes references to `onclick` then it may need a reference to `pinch` or `tofingertap`, etc…
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# [18:42] <Binarytales> surely pinch could be discovered by polling for a change in the size of something (as it's pretty much always used to scale) and fingertaps or covered by onclick and onmousedown?
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# [18:50] <markhuot> Hum, but how would you know if someone pressed with one finger or two on a link or button with onclick?
# [18:50] <markhuot> Pinch, could be discovered with polling, but then couldn't `keyup` as well? I'd say as a measure of convenience `onpinch` would be as helpful as `onkeyup`
# [18:52] <Binarytales> I see what your saying
# [18:59] <Binarytales> it would be cool if onpinch were to return deltas for the amount of pinch or pehaps an array of onmousedown events of something (I've not done a lot of javascript stuff so that might not make sense)
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# [20:32] <rubys> tantek: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/09/02/Polyglot-Validation
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# [20:57] <tantek> hi rubys - reading now
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# [21:03] <rubys> hi tantek, let me know what you think
# [21:04] <TabAtkins> tantek: got the <cvs> example working in ie, but I"m gonna have to scrap the implementation in any case to account for separator characters appearing in quoted fields. I'll move to a character-by-character parser instead.
# [21:04] <tantek> rubys - more details also added to the sf guide: http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/#validation
# [21:04] <tantek> TabAtkins, your implementation is still an excellent "proof of concept"
# [21:05] <tantek> for now, it's worth publishing and explicitly noting the limitations (e.g. characters appearing in quoted fields)
# [21:05] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it works perfectly as I want it now if you can trust the separator character perfectly.
# [21:05] <TabAtkins> I got it to move all of the <cvs> attributes to the generated <table> too.
# [21:05] <TabAtkins> I need someone to help me translate it from jQuery to DOM, though.
# [21:06] <tantek> rubys - I disagree that XHTML 1.0 named entities shouldn't be allowed.
# [21:06] <rubys> tantek, yes that "more" details, but I have experience with developing a validator... and that's why I'm insisting on concrete test cases.
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# [21:06] <tantek> requesting test cases is reasonable
# [21:06] <TabAtkins> In fact, someone (possibly me) needs to make a tutorial - "Turning your jQuery into normal javascript".
# [21:07] <tantek> heh - indeed
# [21:07] <tantek> again, for a proof of concept, jQuery is fine
# [21:07] <tantek> which is all we need for a spec proposal per se
# [21:07] <tantek> it shows implementability, utility, etc.
# [21:07] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
# [21:07] <rubys> tantek: cool. Produce a few this week, and I will try to see if I can implement some of them next week, and get Mike to deploy the results publicly for you and everybody else to bang on.
# [21:08] * TabAtkins will be back in a few, needs to hit up Sonic before returning to work.
# [21:09] <tantek> rubys - I'll try to add to the "etc." and answer Henri's questions first - then the next logical step would be to produce a test case for each bullet point in http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/#validation
# [21:10] <gsnedders> If we want to do that, do we want to check if the page is valid XHTML as well as HTML?
# [21:10] <tantek> (and perhaps even link to the test cases from the bullet points)
# [21:10] <gsnedders> Do we want to check whether it parses to the same tree in both XHTML in HTML?
# [21:10] <gsnedders> *as
# [21:10] <gsnedders> *and
# [21:10] <tantek> gsnedders - that's a reasonable add
# [21:10] <rubys> gsnedders: see the comments on my blog post. There may be differences that don't matter.
# [21:11] <tantek> since tree differences would result in DOM differences, and may result in CSS styling differences, since CSS rules apply to the tree
# [21:11] <rubys> Henri's point about <pre> followed by new-line is a valid one.
# [21:11] <tantek> rubys - so far, for each difference, I've been able to find a case where it could cause an unintended runtime error
# [21:11] <Philip`> (<textarea> too)
# [21:11] <gsnedders> I guess it means making all entities apart from the four XML ones errors, as they aren't allowed in XHTML
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# [21:11] <gsnedders> and <listings>
# [21:11] <gsnedders> or listing
# [21:11] <gsnedders> or whatever it is
# [21:11] <tantek> gsnedders - no - XHTML 1.0 includes named entities
# [21:11] <gsnedders> :P
# [21:11] <Philip`> gsnedders: Nobody cares about obsolete elements :-p
# [21:11] <tantek> therefore so should XHTML syntax
# [21:12] <gsnedders> tantek: Aren't we checking HTML 5 and XHTML 5, though?
# [21:12] <gsnedders> tantek: Or are we doing HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0, which makes things like <img> impossible to use
# [21:12] <tantek> gsnedders, there is no such thing as "HTML 5", there is only HTML5. there is no such things as "XHTML 5" there is only "XHTML syntax of HTML5".
# [21:12] <tantek> gsnedders - read: http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/#validation
# [21:13] <gsnedders> tantek: I have.
# [21:13] <tantek> that answers your question
# [21:13] <gsnedders> It doesn't.
# [21:13] <tantek> read it again
# [21:13] <Philip`> If you want the same tree in HTML and XHTML, you couldn't even write "<ul><li>item 1</li> <li>item 2</li><ul>"
# [21:13] <Philip`> Wait, I'm probably being stupid
# [21:14] <Philip`> That's just in IE, not HTML5, I think
# [21:14] <Philip`> Please ignore me
# [21:14] <tantek> it's ok Philip`, this is IRC, we all expect to say things before we've fully thought them through :)
# [21:15] <Philip`> Am I still being stupid if I think you can't even write "<!DOCTYPE html><html>...all the normal body stuff...</html> " ?
# [21:15] <gsnedders> tantek: My understanding of that is we want to check that a document is both valid HTML and the corresponding version of XHTML, which if we want to check parse trees are the same is rather useless for HTML 4.01 as <img /> is parsed differently.
# [21:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: You could, why couldn't you?
# [21:16] <tantek> gsnedders - false. they are allowed in XHTML 1.0.
# [21:16] <tantek> and in practice, no, <img /> is not parsed differently
# [21:16] <gsnedders> tantek: How is that false? Parsed per HTML 4.01 you get an img element followed by ">", and XHTML you get a single img element.
# [21:16] <gsnedders> tantek: Sure, but we're checking against the spec, and if we're dealing with HTML 4.01, then that is true.
# [21:17] <tantek> gsnedders - your HTML 4.01 spec literalism is a waste of time.
# [21:17] <Philip`> gsnedders: Because in HTML5 the whitespace goes inside the body, in XHTML it doesn't, so the trees are different
# [21:17] <gsnedders> tantek: Then educate people to not use HTML 4.01 if they want their XML-isms
# [21:18] <tantek> gsnedders - like I said - reread http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/#validation to understand the purpose
# [21:18] <gsnedders> tantek: I have. I am asking questions to try and understand the purpose.
# [21:19] <gsnedders> If you want to check coding standards exactly per XHTML, these are all valid questions
# [21:19] <tantek> no - the HTML4.01 shorttag net crap questions is just a waste of time - you're asking theoretical questions that have zero impact in practice - therefore you are wasting time.
# [21:20] <gsnedders> So why don't we just validate against what creates an identical parse tree in all browsers, and ignore all specs?
# [21:21] <gsnedders> Making <u> throw an error is theoretical and has zero impact in practice.
# [21:21] <tantek> gsnedders - reductio ad absurdum arguments are not useful either.
# [21:21] <tantek> ("ignore all specs")
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# [21:22] * Philip` presumes the aim is to find the underlying principles behind the specific suggestions, so that it's possible to tell what other suggestions would fit in
# [21:22] <gsnedders> So we should be validating against the parts of HTML 4.01 that are relevant in the real world?
# [21:22] <tantek> gsnedders - next homework assignment: read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
# [21:23] <tantek> gsnedders, no, you should be ignoring any nitpicky details of HTML4.01 which have never been implemented in practice.
# [21:23] <hober> I didn't even think we were talking about validating HTML 4.01 at all, but instead validating documents which purport to be simultaneously XHTML5 and HTML5
# [21:24] <tantek> and in fact have been *interoperably* implemented in other ways
# [21:28] <fupp> how do I parse a webpage with iso-8859-1 encoding with html5lib? I tried the stuff in the docs but it doesn't work
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# [21:32] <tantek> rubys - really appreciate your volunteering to help with the validation stuff
# [21:33] <rubys> and if you scroll back, you can see why I'm limiting myself to vetted test cases :-)
# [21:34] <rubys> I don't want to get sucked into those arguments.
# [21:39] <gsnedders> hober: But the "Super Friends" document explicitly refers to XHTML 1.0
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# [21:40] <gsnedders> tantek: Also, FWIW, according to HTML 5 section 1.7, there is both HTML5 and XHTML5.
# [21:41] <hober> I think you're misreading that paragraph (of the sf document), gsnedders
# [21:41] <hober> they're not saying "We want to validate a document as simultaneously both HTML5 and XHTML 1.0"
# [21:42] <gsnedders> Then I wish someone would tell me _how_ I'm meant to be reading that document instead of just telling me to read it again.
# [21:42] <hober> they're saying "in the past, we could validate documents-served-as-text/html as XHTML 1.0; in the future, we'd like to be able to validate documents-served-as-text/html as XHTML5"
# [21:42] <hober> tantek: please correct me if my interpretation is wrong
# [21:42] <gsnedders> But you can already do that, just change the parser to XML.
# [21:43] <hober> gsnedders: indeed.
# [21:43] <gsnedders> Which is why are far as I can tell it's about checking a document is both valid HTML and XHTML
# [21:43] <gsnedders> But apparently we're meant to ignore certain parts of the spec we're validating against
# [21:45] <gsnedders> I just want to know quite what this dual-mode validation is meant to be.
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# [21:47] <TabAtkins> Man, I need a corpus of representative CSVs. How are quote characters typically quoted within a quoted field? Are the doubled? Slashed? ?_?
# [21:48] <gsnedders> It varies by producer massively
# [21:48] <TabAtkins> That's what I thought. Damn legacy formats.
# [21:48] <gsnedders> And most variations are incompatible with each other :P
# [21:49] <TabAtkins> ;_;
# [21:49] <hober> TabAtkins: there's an RFC
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# [21:49] <TabAtkins> hober: Any idea if the RFC corresponds to reality, though?
# [21:49] <hober> RFC 4180
# [21:50] <hober> it does IIRC
# [21:52] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that describes the doubling-behavior that I think is pretty common. But I'm not sure if \ing them is prevalent enough to make me care about it too.
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# [21:56] <tantek> TabAtkins - see http://www.data.gov/ for a ton of CSVs :)
# [21:57] <Philip`> Probably not a good way to see a wide range of formats
# [21:58] <tantek> Philip` - you might be surprised. different government agencies do their own thing.
# [21:58] <tantek> TabAtkins - also: http://datasf.org/
# [21:59] <TabAtkins> All right, cool.
# [22:00] <tantek> also, you might find this useful: http://www.creativyst.com/Doc/Articles/CSV/CSV01.htm
# [22:01] <tantek> which was linked from this CSV file editor tool: http://csved.sjfrancke.nl/index.html
# [22:01] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the ability of fields to contain linebreaks is another reason why I need to move to a full parser, rather than a simple regexp-based implementation.
# [22:02] <tantek> which itself was linked from a page of "open science resources" - CSV may be the most used format in open science
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# [22:02] <TabAtkins> Yeah, my wife's a biologist by degree, and has done intern work in labs. CSVs are *everywhere*.
# [22:03] <TabAtkins> http://www.xanthir.com/etc/csv.html contains the current working version. As long as you don't mess around with quotes or anything, it works like a charm in every browser I've tried.
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# [22:04] <tantek> TabAtkins - I find it kind of awesome that someone with the first name "Tab" is implementing <csv> element support - just saying :)
# [22:04] <TabAtkins> And I recommend always enclosing <csv> in <pre>, just like you do with <code> - it prevents CSS accidents (or non-CSS UAs) from making the table unintelligible, and the js parser won't even *work* in IE without whitespace protection.
# [22:05] * TabAtkins sighs. ^^;
# [22:05] <tantek> yes - authoring recommenations - good point
# [22:06] <hober> hmm. you could make your code work with <pre><code class="csv">...</code></pre> as well
# [22:08] <TabAtkins> Well, that's blessing a class, which works individually, but not if you're trying to provide a migration path to native support.
# [22:08] <TabAtkins> <pre><code csv>...</code></pre> is a possibility, but I dunno if that's a good semantic.
# [22:09] <TabAtkins> Plus, right now I've got two attributes on <csv>, and they wouldn't really make sense on <code>.
# [22:09] <hober> I'm not suggesting that the spec bless a class; I'm suggesting that your hack could use that for people deploying to exisitng UAs/versions of HTML
# [22:09] <tantek> csv is data not code
# [22:09] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but <csv> works fine in existing UAs.
# [22:09] <tantek> I would call that semantic abuse
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# [22:09] <TabAtkins> Especially if wrapped in <pre>.
# [22:09] <tantek> (using <code> for csv that is)
# [22:10] <tantek> TabAtkins - agree
# [22:10] <tantek> agreed
# [22:10] <hober> it works in IE without a document.createElement() hack?
# [22:10] <TabAtkins> Yes. And if you're using the js-based csv-to-table shim that I'm developing, you automatically have the ability to include document.createElement('csv').
# [22:11] <TabAtkins> Without the hack (and without the js upward-compat), you just have the CSV data being displayed a preformatted plain text.
# [22:11] <hober> re: <code> semantics, agreed; so put the class="" on <pre> :)
# [22:12] <hober> *nod* a very sensible fallback
# [22:12] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it works well. Yay <pre>!
# [22:13] <TabAtkins> And yeah, you'll probably put class="csv" on your <pre> anyway, just like you currently do <pre .code><code>...
# [22:13] <TabAtkins> Gives you a good styling hook.
# [22:14] <tantek> also, here is source of *science* CSV files
# [22:14] <tantek> http://www.google.com/search?q=science+filetype%3Acsv
# [22:14] <tantek> :D
# [22:14] <hober> heh
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# [22:23] <TabAtkins> Hmm, looks like I only need one-character look-ahead to implement this.
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# [22:31] <tantek> rubys,hsivonen - why the attitude about "how hard it really is" and "isn't really worth it"? Do programmers try to convince each other that fixing code to pass various lint tools "aren't worth it"? Or that running PHP on dev sandboxes with maximum level of warnings and treat warnings as errors is "not worth it"?
# [22:33] <rubys> tantek: I don't think we will have any problems.
# [22:33] <rubys> tantek: we can start with quoted attributes and matched tags.
# [22:33] <rubys> tantek: we can add more and more as you see fit.
# [22:34] <tantek> rubys - writing more and more up as we speak.
# [22:34] <rubys> it may turn out that there are errors that are hard to detect and nobody cares about... that's fine with me.
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# [22:34] <tantek> rubys - agreed.
# [22:35] <tantek> every additional type of error detected by a validator is a net win.
# [22:35] <tantek> regardless of whether we reach some theoretical 100% or something
# [22:35] <rubys> +1
# [22:35] <tantek> hence why I'm dismissive of theoretical questions/requests like the SHORTTAG NET crap.
# [22:35] <rubys> hence why I don't even participate in such discussions.
# [22:36] <tantek> understandable. I suppose I still believe folks *want* to be practically productive, and thus offering an explanation as to why such discussions are not productive seems reasonable.
# [22:37] <rubys> remember: my blog is 100% valid XHTML5 and 100% valid HTML5. (with one minor exception at the moment, to make a point about SVG)
# [22:37] <tantek> rubys you mean it's both valid XHTML syntax and HTML syntax of HTML5? ;)
# [22:37] * tantek dislikes the term XHTML5 - it is misleading.
# [22:37] <rubys> sure, whatever the PC way to say that these days is.
# [22:38] <tantek> rubys, not trying to be PC, just *precise* in order to reduce confusion.
# [22:38] <rubys> I doubt "HTML syntax of HTML5" will catch on.
# [22:39] <tantek> rubys, sure, I think by default that's what people will mean by "HTML5"
# [22:39] <tantek> and hence will only need to make that distinction when also talking about the "XHTML syntax"
# [22:39] <Dashiva> Considering HTML5 closes the XHTML-as-text/html hole, if anything there will be even less XHTML going forward
# [22:39] <rubys> so it will end up in a situation where "guy" can be gender neutral or male.
# [22:40] <tantek> rubys - more like "they" can mean a singular non-gender reference
# [22:40] <tantek> non-gender-specific
# [22:40] <tantek> Dashiva there will be less application/xhtml+xml sure but that mimetype was already dying.
# [22:40] <rubys> no, people will say HTML5, and mean it to mean a specific syntax or both syntaxes. And when it means one (the normal case) it will mean a specific one.
# [22:41] <rubys> kinda like "guy"
# [22:41] <Dashiva> tantek: I meant that fewer people will be saying they make XHTML.
# [22:42] <tantek> Dashiva - sure, there will be less marketing of XHTML
# [22:42] <rubys> Dashiva: officially URLs no longer exist, per the specs, but the term lives on (and even is getting resurrected in HTML5)
# [22:42] * tantek doesn't understand the URL kerfluffle.
# [22:43] <Dashiva> rubys: Indeed, but their doctype won't say xhtml anymore. The label is fading. :)
# [22:44] <rubys> the label will outlive the doctype
# [22:46] <Binarytales> Dashiva - you don't even need to doctype when using the xhtml syntax
# [22:46] <Dashiva> Binarytales: We're talking about XHTML as text/html
# [22:46] <Binarytales> oh right, sorry
# [22:47] <rubys> Dashiva: correction: you are.
# [22:47] <Dashiva> But yes, that's also kind of amusing. A document is more likely to say "I'm XHTML" at the top if it isn't.
# [22:48] <rubys> A document is also likely to say "strict" at the top but not be.
# [22:50] * tantek gets the big red comment posting warning box on intertwingly.net.
# [22:50] <rubys> ignore it
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# [22:51] <rubys> it is just there to scare away the spammers
# [22:51] * tantek goes ahead and submits comment anyway and identifies self via OpenID - sweet.
# [22:52] <rubys> I have no moderation, just big scary signs.
# [22:53] <rubys> tantek: if you post again tomorrow (on any post) or within 90 days, you shouldn't see any scary signs.
# [22:54] <rubys> I've got a list of "known" commenters (both by IP and URI) that updates a few times a day.
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# [23:06] <KevinMarks> a lot of data.goc CSV's are actually sensibly tab-separated
# [23:07] <TabAtkins> I'm already supporting tab-separated stuff fine.
# [23:10] <dpranke> TabAtkins: what "rendering" section are you referring to? Someplace other than 4.10.10?
# [23:11] <TabAtkins> dpranke: 11.4.15
# [23:12] <dpranke> TabAtkins: ah. thanks!
# [23:12] <TabAtkins> no proble!
# [23:12] <TabAtkins> ... s/proble/problem/
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# [23:14] <gsnedders> Since when did Opera support typing "/." in the address bar to get to /.?
# [23:15] <TabAtkins> Haha, awesome.
# [23:15] <TabAtkins> 10b2, at least. ^_^
# [23:17] <tantek> they might as well add support for typing "@username" to navigate to http://twitter.com/username
# [23:21] <Philip`> gsnedders: It's done that since forever
# [23:22] <Philip`> or at least since 9.0
# [23:22] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yeah, I know it predates 9.5 :P
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# [23:33] <tantek> rubys, hsivonen - I've followed up on your comment re: validation - hope this helps: http://www.zeldman.com/2009/08/31/loving-html5/#comment-48070
# [23:36] <rubys> tantek: you've switched positions on XHTML 1.0 entitites?
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# [23:36] <tantek> rubys - not switched, moved
# [23:37] <rubys> cool. Note that jacques distler has nominated two tests: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/09/02/Polyglot-Validation#c1251926776
# [23:38] <tantek> rubys, part of the use case of XHTML for me has always been enabling XML tool chain uses - see: http://tantek.com/log/2003/01.html#L20030114t1345
# [23:39] * tantek feels a bit old citing 6+ year old blog posts.
# [23:39] <rubys> that's one that zeldman may disagree with, but I'll leave that up to you two. To me, it simply is an if-check.
# [23:40] <tantek> rubys - hence why I said non-XML XHTML 1.0 named entities should be a *warning*, not an error
# [23:40] <rubys> [my blog and my planet either use numeric entity references or pure utf-8]
# [23:41] <rubys> initially, these will all be warnings... we can make fine grained distinctions later.
# [23:41] <tantek> As my intuition says that Zeldman and other web designers will want to continue using named entities and still "validate"
# [23:41] <tantek> rubys - the ones that will more likely cause runtime errors I'm advocating as "errors" if the "check XHTML syntax" checkbox is checked.
# [23:41] <tantek> e.g. missing tbody would be an error
# [23:42] <rubys> I think that eventually there won't be a single XHTML profile, but a series of ones... suitable for education (named entities OK) and suitable for enterprises (only 5 named entities and the numeric set)
# [23:42] <tantek> I believe warning on the XHTML 1.0 named entities accomplishes that.
# [23:43] <rubys> Suggestion for a useful test case: one that would be treated as iso-8859-1 when parsed as HTML and utf-8 when parsed as xhtml.
# [23:43] <tantek> I'm hoping that HTML5 obeys the meta charset
# [23:44] <rubys> HTML5 served as text/html does
# [23:44] <rubys> HTML5 when parsed by an XML parser does not
# [23:44] <tantek> heck I'd even be ok with a warning for any document that uses iso-8859-1
# [23:44] <rubys> that's basically my thinking
# [23:44] <tantek> and have the warning say use UTF8 instead
# [23:44] <tantek> srsly
# [23:44] <TabAtkins> Woo, I'll become a regular user of Opera soon, now that the Wii Internet Channel is free.
# [23:44] <rubys> agreed
# [23:44] <TabAtkins> That explains the menacing glow yesterday.
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# [23:46] <tantek> rubys - btw your blog posts cites "Jeffrey Zeldman" at the start - note that the "guide" was a collaboratively written document - a more accurate cite would be "The HTML5 Super Friends" (as signed at the bottom of the "guide" http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/
# [23:47] <tantek> Jeffrey is hosting it at zeldman.com, not saying he wrote it, though of course he contributed to it heavily.
# [23:47] <rubys> that term incites riots in certain sectors
# [23:47] <tantek> usually the rioters stop when they become transfixed by the unicorn.
# [23:48] <tantek> besides, the threat of rioting hasn't stopped you from being precise in the past ;)
# [23:52] <rubys> ah, what the heck. Fixed.
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# [23:57] <othermaciej> hi all
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# [23:57] <othermaciej> tantek: do you know if more of the Superfriends are planning to join the HTML WG?
# [23:58] <tantek> I have encouraged and am encouraging all of them to do so. Some already have.
# [23:58] <Hixie> i just block-moved all the public-html and whatwg feedback today into my pile to deal with -- was there anything important i should have seen?
# [23:59] <othermaciej> tantek: do you know if anyone is going to send the collected feedback in direct email form? I think that would be helpful (even though there is already some discussion)
# [23:59] <tantek> othermaciej - yes, Hixie requested that the feedback be given in email form yesterday on IRC as well.
# Session Close: Thu Sep 03 00:00:00 2009

The end :)