/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-09-03 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Sep 03 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <tantek> and yes, that has/is already happening
# [00:00] <tantek> different people are picking up different pieces of the feedback and emailing them in
# [00:00] <tantek> e.g. Jeremy Keith (@adactio) has already sent a bunch to the public-html list
# [00:01] <tantek> and I believe Jeffrey Zeldman has emailed some of the feedback/suggestions directly to Hixie (and many fixes appear to have already been made)
# [00:01] <Hixie> i haven't received any direct feedback since the superheroes made their superannouncement indicating that they had feedback
# [00:01] <Hixie> and jeremy doesn't seem to have sent any new feedback to public-html
# [00:01] <tantek> Hixie, one *really* important thing, there's a typo in the last example in the time element section - http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-time-element
# [00:01] <tantek> lt; should be <
# [00:01] <Hixie> (though he has commented on a few threads)
# [00:02] <Hixie> tantek: file a bug using the feedback form in the spec :-)
# [00:02] <tantek> I did - didn't seem to have any effect
# [00:02] <Hixie> cool
# [00:02] <Hixie> i'll get to it in due course
# [00:02] <tantek> (yesterday)
# [00:02] <tantek> cool
# [00:03] <tantek> Hixie, feedback started being sent to the list (and to you directly) *before* the announcement was posted, as we didn't think waiting was necessary, so everyone was given freedom to make feedback ASAP, not wait for anything.
# [00:03] <Hixie> ah ok
# [00:03] <tantek> s/given freedom/encouraged
# [00:04] <Hixie> so long as all the feedback is sent through one of the usual channels, that's good
# [00:04] <Hixie> it just seemed like there was much more on zeldman's blog than had been sent
# [00:04] <Hixie> maybe i was just confused by the font size :-)
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# [00:06] <tantek> Hixie - you might say that people are having open discussions regarding some points of feedback to clarify / improve them before sending them in officially so that when you see them on the list, your time is better spent.
# [00:06] <Hixie> i might?
# [00:07] <tantek> no reason to waste your time shooting down half-baked feedback. blog commenters are perfectly good at that. ;)
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# [00:08] <othermaciej> tantek: I'm kind of interested in the figure/details/legend feedback, since that seems to be a point where both the design folks and browser implementors are not entirely satisfied with the current state of the spec
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# [00:08] <tantek> othermaciej - I agree, and there was much debate on that point too.
# [00:09] <tantek> or rather on details/legend specifically
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# [00:09] <tantek> figure is well liked AFAIK
# [00:09] <othermaciej> what I meant specifically is use of legend for both details and figure - the big feedback post commented on both of those (though IIRC proposed different solutions for each)
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# [00:12] <othermaciej> I was prepared to drop this, but it seems in the 1.5 years since we last discussed this issue, there has been no progress on legend parsing in any of the browsers, and dissatisfaction with the state of things continues
# [00:12] <Hixie> there's been massive progress
# [00:12] <Hixie> mozilla implemented the entire html5 parser algorithm
# [00:12] <othermaciej> when they ship it there will be progress
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# [00:13] * TabAtkins loves SVL's quit message.
# [00:15] <TabAtkins> I'm guessing that Gecko's new algo, a <legend> that's not a child of a <fieldset> is just treated like a normal block for styling purposes?
# [00:16] <othermaciej> it should act like a normal inline, no?
# [00:16] <TabAtkins> Oh, right.
# [00:16] <TabAtkins> I think.
# [00:16] * TabAtkins shrugs.
# [00:16] <TabAtkins> "Normal element" is what I was getting at, rather than "crazy element that doesn't use the normal display engine".
# [00:17] <othermaciej> that's how it is supposed to be per spec, whether Mozilla has implemented that, I don't know
# [00:18] <annevk3> hsivonen's parser does the correct thing
# [00:18] <tantek> othermaciej - <details> is useful. I don't think <legend> is necessarily the right answer though.
# [00:19] <TabAtkins> parser, yeah. But does it respond correctly to CSS? <legend> in <fieldset> doesn't, because it has some magic display issues.
# [00:19] <othermaciej> tantek: that's sort of what I think - it's a tradeoff between minting a few more elements vs. making <figure> and <details> effectively unusable for years
# [00:19] <hober> it's too bad <legend> and <caption> both have unfortunate legacy parsing concerns; it seems a shame to mint another element with effectively the same semantics. nevertheless, that might be what we need to do
# [00:19] <tantek> precisely
# [00:19] <tantek> (in reply to othermaciej)
# [00:19] <annevk3> TabAtkins, yes it does, try a recent Firefox and put <legend> in the DOM in XML mode or some such
# [00:20] <tantek> <legend> may be too legacy-encumbered to be useful for <figure> and <details>
# [00:20] <TabAtkins> annevk3: Thanks, I only have the latest public release of FF.
# [00:20] <tantek> and you know how much I am a strong advocate of re-use whenever possible.
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# [02:44] <AryehGregor> Temperatures have an upper bound too, which is the same as their lower bound but from the opposite direction. :)
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# [02:46] <othermaciej> negative temperatures are not a consideration in most situations, and are kind of a statistical fiction anyway
# [02:47] <tantek> othermaciej negative C is quite common, and negative F is not uncommon either (having been in both)
# [02:47] <othermaciej> tantek: I think AryehGregor meant negative Kelvin temperatures
# [02:47] <othermaciej> or rather
# [02:47] <AryehGregor> Yes, I did.
# [02:47] <tantek> because Kelvin temps are so common in UI?
# [02:48] <tantek> or web content for that matter?
# [02:48] <othermaciej> they are not, but 0K is the absolute lower bound of temperature
# [02:48] <AryehGregor> I dunno if they're a statistical fiction. They make a lot of sense if you think of 1/T = dE/dS. (Or did I get that upside-down? I only minored in physics.)
# [02:48] <mpilgrim> i see polyglot documents are back in the spotlight again
# [02:48] <othermaciej> and for obscure reasons you can also claim it is the upper bound since negative temperatures are "hotter" than infinite temperatures
# [02:48] <mpilgrim> what a complete fucking waste of time
# [02:49] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: the way I think it's a fiction is that a body brought into contact with a negative temperature body won't in general come into thermal equilibrium at a negative temperature
# [02:49] <AryehGregor> Um, units. S has units of Boltzmann's constant, which occurs in PV = NkT, 1/T = PV/Nk, so yeah, it's 1/T = dE/dS.
# [02:49] <othermaciej> (as far as I know anyway)
# [02:49] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure my thermodynamics book said they behaved pretty much like normal temperatures.
# [02:50] <AryehGregor> If we look at 1/T, they're totally natural. 1/T goes from -infinity to infinity, and must be finite.
# [02:50] <AryehGregor> Thus T can be anything except zero, including infinity or -infinity, and infinity = -infinity.
# [02:50] <AryehGregor> I don't think such "high" temperatures come up anywhere except carefully-crafted particle ensembles in laboratories, admittedly.
# [02:58] <mpilgrim> tantek: so is it your belief that the world would be better served by an html validator that included a checkbox to check whether slashes, quotes, and other characters appear in certain places that have absolutely no effect on either validity or browser parsing?
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# [02:58] <mpilgrim> because i'm having difficulty seeing that as anything other than a complete waste of time
# [02:59] <tantek> mpilgrim I do believe the more compile/validation-time errors (or common sources of errors) that you catch, the fewer run/browsing-time errors you run into, which saves time.
# [03:00] <mpilgrim> ok, but the things you've listed are explicitly irrelevant to either validation or client-side parsing
# [03:00] <tantek> and the "no effect on either validity or browser parsing" is not a provable statement - I reject it. especially when new browsers and browsing devices are coming out every few months
# [03:00] <AryehGregor> If you're already running a validator, isn't the validator going to catch the errors anyway?
# [03:00] <tantek> the stricter you code, the more defensive your code is, the more future-device/implementation-proof
# [03:00] <tantek> AryehGregor - yes - the point is to improve the validator to give the option of catching more
# [03:01] <mpilgrim> i'm sorry, are you suggesting that the very notion of a valid html document is NP-complete?
# [03:01] <AryehGregor> But if the only purpose of catching things like omitting quotes is to protect against hypothetical errors that might be made if you don't omit them, then why don't you rely on the validator reporting those hypothetical errors directly, should they occur?
# [03:02] <AryehGregor> I don't see why validators (or separate apps) couldn't also give stylistic advice, for people who wanted it.
# [03:02] <AryehGregor> I'm of the opinion that quotes (and especially trailing slashes) fall firmly into the stylistic camp.
# [03:02] <mpilgrim> stylistic advice is fine. i think that validators should warn about <title>Untitled document</title>, but that has no bearing on validity
# [03:02] <tantek> AryehGregor - because it can't because the errors result from silent error recovery which may quietly have not the effect you expect until you *run* the code in a browser and maybe see it styled wrong or worse, have to wait from some DOM script/manipulation to fail.
# [03:02] <AryehGregor> Actually, I actively dislike the trailing slash in text/html, because it misleads people into thinking it actually means something.
# [03:03] <AryehGregor> tantek, the validator doesn't do silent error recovery, though . . .
# [03:03] <mpilgrim> and the rules you've lined up so far are all about some mythical concept of "XHTML syntax", which as far as i can tell is "the markup you would have to send to a browser if you were using the proper MIME type, which of course you can't do because only crazy people do that, but it's all more semantic if you include slashes and shit"
# [03:03] <tantek> AryehGregor - but HTML5 has tons of rules for UAs to do silent malformed content recovery.
# [03:03] <tantek> therefore the validator does too
# [03:04] <AryehGregor> If the content is malformed, the validator is required to report an error. Only user agents have to do error recovery of any kind, AFAIK.
# [03:04] <tantek> AryehGregor - if you always open/close tags in an XML-well-formed way, then you don't ever have to even think about what tags magically don't need an end tag etc.
# [03:05] <AryehGregor> I honestly think there's less confusion about what tags magically don't need an end tag, than about what that trailing slash actually does.
# [03:05] <mpilgrim> if the validator is going to go all stylistic on your ass, i'd prefer that it warn about massive stretches of whitespace, lack of gzip encoding, and stupid talismen like end-slashes-in-empty-tags that do nothing but bloat the web with unnecessary markup
# [03:05] <AryehGregor> I've seen people do stuff like <div />Some text</div>.
# [03:05] <tantek> mpilgrim - you're welcome to send your own suggestions for validator improvement
# [03:05] <mpilgrim> and you're welcome to develop your own mythical concepts
# [03:05] <mpilgrim> doesn't mean people should pay any attention to you
# [03:06] <tantek> AryehGregor - and the validator improvements I suggest would catch that - since it you're auto-closing a typically non-empty element.
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# [03:06] <AryehGregor> tantek, it already catches that, since it's invalid HTML 5.
# [03:06] <mpilgrim> um, the validator will already flag <div/>foo</div> because the </div> is closing an unopen tag
# [03:06] <AryehGregor> The trailing slash is only allowed on self-closing elements, anything else is already a conformance error.
# [03:06] <tantek> assuming you don't have an errant <div> before it
# [03:06] <mpilgrim> your suggestions are all explicitly about useless markup
# [03:07] <AryehGregor> mpilgrim, no, it's closing an open tag. It will flag the <div /> because that's not allowed in text/html.
# [03:07] * AryehGregor tests
# [03:07] <AryehGregor> "Error: Self-closing syntax (/>) used on a non-void HTML element. Ignoring the slash and treating as a start tag."
# [03:07] <tantek> mpilgrim your use of the words mythical and useless are incorrect. every suggestion is based on concrete experience and productivity.
# [03:07] <tantek> thanks AryehGregor - that is good to know.
# [03:07] <mpilgrim> how about "not supported by spec text"
# [03:08] <mpilgrim> you want to continue selling "semantic XHTML"
# [03:08] <tantek> not particularly
# [03:08] <tantek> semantic HTML seems sufficient
# [03:08] <mpilgrim> but keep sending it as text/html
# [03:08] <AryehGregor> In text/html, all self-closing "/"s are completely ignored. For XHTML compatibility, they're allowed on void elements, but they still do nothing.
# [03:09] <tantek> AryehGregor makes sense
# [03:09] <mpilgrim> AryehGregor: let me rephrase that. "In text/html, all self-closing "/"s are completely ignored. For compatibility with an obsolete language that 5 people in the world use correctly, they're allowed on void elements, but they still do nothing."
# [03:09] <AryehGregor> Anyway, it looks like the initial HTML 5 deployment on Wikipedia will end up staying XML-compatible to shut up all the people who are still attached to XHTML.
# [03:09] <tantek> mpilgrim I've tried experimenting with using application/xhtml+xml - I don't find it very productive/reliable, so I've stuck with text/html and recommend using it.
# [03:10] <tantek> AryehGregor - it also helps enable some amount of XML tool chain reuse of the content, for whatever that is worth to the communities that use XML tool chains.
# [03:10] <AryehGregor> mpilgrim, actually, to be fair, if you deal with a site that you *know* outputs well-formed XML almost always (like Wikipedia), then it's convenient to use an XML parser for screen-scraping.
# [03:10] <AryehGregor> That's the major practical reason in favor of keeping well-formed XML on Wikipedia.
# [03:10] <mpilgrim> i've tried experimenting with making my pages smaller by omitting useless crap. i've found it very reliable and recommend using it
# [03:11] <AryehGregor> Because if we stop, we're pretty sure we'll get a dozen major bots breaking overnight.
# [03:11] <tantek> AryehGregor - that practical reason has been re-affirmed by lots of folks.
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# [03:11] <AryehGregor> However, in Wikipedia's case, we don't want people screen-scraping anyway.
# [03:11] <AryehGregor> We have a bot API that's much more convenient and efficient and reliable.
# [03:11] <tantek> parsing != screenscraping
# [03:11] <AryehGregor> Screen-scrapers annoy us because they cause complaints whenever we change the HTML layout anyway.
# [03:11] <tantek> screenscraping is using regex's and other outside-the-language-definition hacks to extract content
# [03:12] <tantek> if you're parsing (XML or HTML) you're not scraping
# [03:12] <tantek> you're parsing
# [03:12] <AryehGregor> You're parsing human-readable content with a bot. Not reliable or advisable.
# [03:12] <AryehGregor> It's fragile no matter how you're parsing it.
# [03:12] <AryehGregor> Because the DOM can be changed around arbitrarily as features are added and removed and so on.
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# [03:13] <AryehGregor> Anyway, I mostly agree with mpilgrim. I see no good reason to use XHTML-style HTML.
# [03:13] <annodomini> Well, unless Microdata/formats/RDFa catches on and is used well.
# [03:13] <AryehGregor> I made sure to add a "use well-formed XML" configuration option to MediaWiki when adding HTML 5 support, and have happily turned it off on my wikis.
# [03:14] <AryehGregor> There are absolutely no possible issues with reliability here -- everything is generated with functions that automatically add slashes and quotes and so on only if necessary.
# [03:14] <AryehGregor> So there's no plausible possibility of errors being introduced by this.
# [03:15] <AryehGregor> Unless of course HTML 5 parsing rules aren't actually 100% reliably implemented in practice.
# [03:15] <tantek> AryehGregor - that is good to know
# [03:15] <AryehGregor> I'm sad that = is banned in unquoted attribute values.
# [03:15] <AryehGregor> It's not really ambiguous, after all. If it were allowed, you wouldn't have to quote any URLs.
# [03:15] <tantek> and yes I expect HTML5 parsing rules aren't 100% reliably implemented in practice because they depend on quirks of just a few desktop browsers.
# [03:16] <AryehGregor> I assume there are compatibility issues with it.
# [03:16] <AryehGregor> . . . All of which have to parse things more or less the same way, or break 80% of the web.
# [03:16] <tantek> you don't need all the rules in HTML5 in order to not break 80% of the web
# [03:17] <tantek> there's too much documentation of quirks IMHO
# [03:17] <tantek> but it's not a big enough deal to ask for changes in the spec
# [03:17] <tantek> (to me anyway)
# [03:17] <AryehGregor> AFAICT, quirks are only included if they're important enough that major vendors aren't willing to drop them.
# [03:18] <AryehGregor> So I'd say you probably do need all the rules, or nearly all, to get pages to work right. Of course, you could drop a lot of the quirks and still get 95% of the web rendering right, but 95% isn't enough for implementors.
# [03:19] <tantek> AryehGregor "major vendors" == just a few desktop browsers == a fraction of the HTML implementations out there.
# [03:19] <AryehGregor> The only ones anyone cares about, though, to be honest.
# [03:20] <AryehGregor> "almost anyone", if you like.
# [03:20] <tantek> hence: "HTML 5 parsing rules aren't actually 100% reliably implemented in practice."
# [03:20] <tantek> new browsers/devices that people *start* caring about come along all the time
# [03:21] <AryehGregor> "in practice" = "enough people care that someone bothers to complain"
# [03:21] <tantek> witness iPhone WebKit which is close to, but not the same as desktop WebKit
# [03:21] <tantek> and this will continue
# [03:21] <AryehGregor> Does its HTML parser differ at all?
# [03:21] <tantek> no idea - but its browser/rendering behavior does - that's what people actually "care about"
# [03:21] <tantek> to use your words
# [03:21] <tantek> rather than nitpicking of is it differences in the HTML parser or some other block of code?
# [03:22] <AryehGregor> Any difference other than in the HTML parsing isn't really relevant to speccing HTML parsing quirks.
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# [03:25] <AryehGregor> AFAICT, new HTML user agents of any significance arise rarely, and when they do they take great pains to replicate quirks of existing user agents.
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# [03:35] <annodomini> TabAtkins: I don't think that a <csv> element is a good idea; it's pretty odd to have a special element for one particular data format with completely different parsing rules embedded in HTML
# [03:35] <annodomini> Why not a <tex> element for TeX? Or any other format that you might be able to cram in?
# [03:36] <annodomini> Instead, HTML5 already allows you to use <script> for embedding data in other formats.
# [03:39] <annodomini> I've rewritten your <csv> example to use <script type="text/csv">; you can even get your fallback behavior (which works in Firefox and Safari at least) with script[type^="text/csv"] { display: block; }
# [03:39] <annodomini> http://ephemera.continuation.org/csv.html
# [03:39] <tantek> annodomini - <csv> is a form of pre, and is quite common. the application to open government and open science sites makes a big difference.
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# [03:39] <tantek> <script type="text/csv"> may be a suitable way of doing it too
# [03:40] <tantek> rather than a new element
# [03:40] <tantek> but csv feels more like <pre> than <script>
# [03:40] <tantek> perhaps it could be done with attributes on <pre>
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# [03:40] <tantek> rather than a new element
# [03:41] <annodomini> Right, I'm not objecting to CSV in general. I just think it would be weird to have a new element with entirely different parsing rules standardised in HTML.
# [03:41] <AryehGregor> You mean like <svg> and <math>?
# [03:42] <annodomini> Those don't have entirely different parsing rules. In XHTML, they parse like any other XML. In HTML, they can still generally use the same parsing rules and DOM as the rest of HTML, though there are some details that need to be worked out.
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# [03:43] <annodomini> I do think it's a bit odd to be doing <svg> and <math> in the HTML syntax, but it's not really out there; they have the same basic DOM structure and same basic parsing behavior as the rest of the language.
# [03:44] <AryehGregor> So SVG/MathML in HTML doesn't have to be well-formed XML? I haven't looked.
# [03:45] <annodomini> Has that part ben specced yet? I though that it hadn't really been fully specced.
# [03:46] <heycam> yes it doesn't have to be well-formed xml
# [03:46] <heycam> although most common well-formed xml svg will be parsed correctly
# [03:46] <heycam> e.g. if you use prefixes it won't work
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# [04:00] <tantek> using prefixes in general doesn't work so that makes sense
# [04:01] <tantek> annodomini - where did you come up with the ;header=present;separator=\t" parameters for text/csv? are those standard?
# [04:02] <annodomini> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4180.txt
# [04:02] <annodomini> The header one is standard.
# [04:02] <annodomini> The separator one was based on TabAtkin's proposed attribute.
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# [04:10] <tantek> annodomini you've convinced me that another element is not necessary. we can do this by simply adding an attribute (that we need anyway) to <pre>
# [04:11] <annodomini> What attribute are you thinking of?
# [04:11] <tantek> a "separator" attribute - if present/non-empty, then treat contents as CSV and provide table DOM API access to the rows/columns
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# [04:11] <tantek> and per RFC4180, add a "header" attribute which takes the values "absent" or "present"
# [04:12] <tantek> so
# [04:13] <tantek> <pre separator="," header="present">Year,Make,Model
# [04:13] <tantek> etc.
# [04:16] <annodomini> Hmm. It seems weird that <pre> would render as a table if @separator is present, and as simply as as fixed-width text with spaces preserved otherwise.
# [04:17] <annodomini> I really think that <script> is the right solution for this, as it allows for a mime type and can thus support a much wider variety of formats.
# [04:17] <annodomini> Or, perhaps, a <data> element that is like <script> but the contents are expected to be static data rather than an executable <script>.
# [04:17] <tantek> it provides good fallback for browsers that don't support @separator
# [04:17] <tantek> and it is content that should be displayed
# [04:18] <tantek> hence why <pre> is better than <script> for this
# [04:18] <tantek> a <data> element would be fine too
# [04:18] <tantek> but that's the same problem as creating a new <csv> element
# [04:19] <annodomini> <data> would be general purpose, and not work for only one specific format.
# [04:19] <tantek> there is a good case for <csv> given the huge corpuses of data being published in that format
# [04:19] <tantek> I would need to see use cases for a more general <data>
# [04:20] <annodomini> There's a huge amont of data published in .xls, but should that be part of HTML?
# [04:20] <tantek> xls is far more complicated and proprietary
# [04:20] <tantek> I would be against inclusion purely because of that
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# [04:21] <tantek> whereas publishing csv is *common* practice in government and science communities
# [04:21] <tantek> and the fallback works well
# [04:21] <tantek> that's the key
# [04:21] <tantek> csv data inside a <pre> is still reasonably viewable
# [04:21] <tantek> even listenable
# [04:22] <tantek> (neither of those are true for xls)
# [04:22] <annodomini> How about TeX? Lots of stuff published in that format. It falls back well (a lot better than MathML for sure).
# [04:22] <tantek> annodomini - I think you could make a better case for including TeX than MathML
# [04:23] <tantek> given the huge disparity in amount of content published (TeX wayyyyy (1000x?) more than MathML)
# [04:23] <tantek> and I would agree it falls back "better" than MathML - though still not particularly well
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# [04:23] <annodomini> Well, except that TeX involves bringing in a whole other programming language, it's own formatting model that I'm sure has plenty of subtle differences from the CSS formatting model, and so on.
# [04:23] <tantek> I wouldn't want to listen to raw TeX in a screen reader
# [04:24] <annodomini> Yeah, maybe MathML isn't a great example.
# [04:24] <tantek> the visual/listenable fall back is key here
# [04:24] <tantek> is there a recommended mechanism in HTML5 for marking up ASCII Art?
# [04:25] <tantek> (besides just <pre>)
# [04:25] <annodomini> That's pretty much what <pre> is for.
# [04:25] <AryehGregor> "subtle" differences? TeX's formatting model is *ridiculously* different from CSS.
# [04:25] <tantek> annodomini - no that doesn't work well due to the listenability problem
# [04:25] <tantek> <pre>(:</pre>
# [04:26] <tantek> ASCII art is an image essentially
# [04:26] <tantek> and thus needs "alt" or something similar
# [04:26] <AryehGregor> Raw TeX is actually pretty listenable, as far as things go. You can't say complicated equations very effectively at all.
# [04:26] <annodomini> AryehGregor: Fair enough. I don't know much about TeX's formatting model; I figured it had some of the same basic ideas about box layout.
# [04:26] <AryehGregor> TeX is a programming language that's generally used for layout.
# [04:27] <AryehGregor> I don't know much about its formatting model either. I mean, it's not like there's a spec or multiple implementations, AFAIK.
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# [04:27] * tantek looks for work on CSS anonymous table object pseudo-elements but can't seem to find them on the Web. e.g. ::table-row, ::table-cell
# [04:28] <tantek> or even ::table-row(an+b), ::table-cell(an+b)
# [04:28] <tantek> so you could say
# [04:28] <tantek> pre[separator]::table-row(2n+1) {background:silver}
# [04:29] <tantek> to give silver backgrounds to alternating rows in a CSV
# [04:30] <annodomini> tantek: Well, all of the alternatives to the "alt" attribute defined for <img> would probably apply for <pre> as well (such as its title attribute, legend/caption/whatever it will be called of a figure, etc)
# [04:31] <annodomini> tantek: The other problem with <pre separator> is that if the separator is being treated in the most simple manner (with the rows separated by newlines and columns by the separator), then you can't actually use most CSV, which allows you to wrap columns in quotes.
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# [04:31] <tantek> right the point would be that the "separator" attribute would follow CSV rules
# [04:32] <tantek> this page has a reasonable description of the quoted columns stuff etc. http://www.creativyst.com/Doc/Articles/CSV/CSV01.htm
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# [04:34] <tantek> for reference: CSS 2.1 anonymous table objects: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html#anonymous-boxes
# [04:34] <tantek> CSS has precedence for synthetically generated table-row/cell pseudo-elements etc.
# [04:34] <annodomini> Is it common to allow quoted columns in tab delimited text?
# [04:35] <annodomini> I know it's common in CSV (though the exact details of how to escape quotes themselves vary)
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# [04:37] <tantek> annodomini - I think it would be reasonable to apply the quote escaping to apply to any separator
# [04:37] <tantek> to make the quote escaping apply to
# [04:38] <annodomini> Various formats also use colons, semicolons, and vertical pipe delimiters; I'm not sure if there are any common quoting rules between the various formats.
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# [04:42] <ttepasse> tantek, I never got <datagrid> completely ??but could't be a modified <datagrid> thinkable backed by a (linked) CSV-File?
# [04:42] <tantek> maybe
# [04:43] <tantek> the advantages of <pre separator> is that it provides the data inline, and has good fallback behavior for implementations that don't support it
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# [05:12] <othermaciej> good evening
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# [05:27] <tantek> good evening othermaciej
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# [08:06] <othermaciej> Philip`: did you ever get around to updating your HTML5+RDFa draft?
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# [08:45] <Philip`> othermaciej: No
# [08:45] <othermaciej> Philip`: alas
# [08:46] <othermaciej> Philip`: I'm wondering how much detailed advice I should give Manu on how to write a sound and precise spec - it would be so much easier just to point to your document
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# [08:48] <Philip`> othermaciej: (I think I realised I didn't care enough to try updating it, when the result would probably not be any more practically useful than the current version)
# [08:49] <othermaciej> Philip`: you mean because you don't think the document or at least chunks of its language will be accepted, or because writing a detailed spec for RDFa+HTML5 is not worth the effort?
# [08:50] <othermaciej> (or something else?)
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# [08:51] <othermaciej> I guess what I'm asking is, would you be more motivated to update if there was more enthusiasm shown for your approach, or did you decide it's not a good use of your time in any case?
# [08:51] <othermaciej> (either is ok, it would just inform what I do next)
# [08:52] <Philip`> othermaciej: I don't know :-(
# [08:52] <Philip`> Mostly I'm just lazy and had other things to do yesterday
# [08:53] <othermaciej> Philip`: ok
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# [08:53] <othermaciej> I think it would be a helpful contribution, but I won't pester you about it
# [08:55] * Philip` might feel less lazy at some point in the future
# [08:55] <Lachy> Philip`, where is your HTML+RDFa draft?
# [08:56] <Lachy> and why did you start it, and what significant changes had you done or initially intended to do?
# [08:59] <Philip`> Lachy: http://philip.html5.org/docs/rdfa/
# [09:00] <Philip`> Most of the feedback from RDFa people seemed to be that duplicating the RDFa-in-XHTML Processing Model section is bad (because it can cause unwanted divergence between the syntaxes), so I suppose in theory I'd want to remove that duplication
# [09:02] <hsivonen> Is getting the XHTML 1.1 side into REC like "Bank" on Who wants to be a millionnaire?
# [09:02] <hsivonen> so defining both HTML and XHTML behavior in one spec is unacceptable because it would turn the XHTML side into a non-REC again?
# [09:03] <Philip`> (Do you mean "Bank" on The Weakest Link?)
# [09:04] <hsivonen> Philip`: hmm. maybe. I don't watch game shows routinely enough to know these well enough
# [09:06] <hsivonen> So the W3C Process is not only like Survivor but it's like the Weakest Link, too.
# [09:07] <hsivonen> "The Weakest Link" could be made into fun Web-related jokes, too.
# [09:08] <othermaciej> hsivonen: apparently they want to do RDFa 1.1 which would spec both HTML and XHTML syntax
# [09:09] <othermaciej> in a new working group solely for the purpose of RDFa
# [09:09] <othermaciej> personally I think it makes more sense to just do that update than to make a delta spec first, but probably they wouldn't want the HTML WG to publish the eventual product
# [09:10] <hsivonen> A WG solely for the purpose of X is like begging for Conway's Law-like effects
# [09:12] <Lachy> hsivonen, could you explain what "Bank" refers to in whatever gameshow it comes from, and explain your analogy?
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# [09:13] <Lachy> I'm guessing it's not like a normal concept of a bank, or like the bank in monopoly, since that doesn't seem to make sense for your analogy
# [09:14] <hsivonen> Lachy: on whatever show it comes from, the gameshow player can lose all the pending money won so far if (s)he answers wrong
# [09:14] <hsivonen> Lachy: one time during the game, the player can say "bank" to save all the money so far won so that a subsequent wrong answer will roll back to that point and all isn't lost
# [09:15] <Lachy> "... However, before their question is asked, a contestant can say "BANK" and the money earned thus far is safely stored and a new chain is initiated from scratch." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weakest_Link
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# [09:16] <Lachy> I remember that from the failed series of the weaest link we had briefly in Australia
# [09:17] <Lachy> I can't believe the show is still running in the UK. It was rubbish.
# [09:17] <Philip`> (Saying "bank" also resets the exponentially-growing amount of money you win per question)
# [09:18] <Philip`> I guess in Australia you didn't have Anne Robinson
# [09:18] <Lachy> no idea who she is
# [09:18] <Philip`> That's the problem, then
# [09:18] <hsivonen> Lachy: the format relies heavily on the UK host being good at being mean on stage.
# [09:19] <Lachy> we had Cornelia Frances, a former actor from Home and Away.
# [09:19] <Lachy> most people objected to the concept of the host being rude to the contestants
# [09:22] * Mrmil has to solve a stupid dillema again: save two bigger images or three smaller images and add an extra div? CSS 2 just wants HTML to be bloated. :( Ah well, sorry for the whine, just had to let it out...
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# [09:26] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I'm not sure it's all political maneuvering, because Manu says that his spec is supposed to change processing rules for XHTML too, even though it is a delta spec and not a full spec
# [09:27] <othermaciej> so if he's sincere in that, RDFa in XHTML is not any more locked down with this approach
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# [09:28] <othermaciej> that being said, I still think updating the spec is more fruitful than creating a delta spec
# [09:30] <othermaciej> I can
# [09:31] <othermaciej> er
# [09:31] <othermaciej> I can't help but think of XHTML 1.1 and how it ended up a delta of a delta of a delta
# [09:31] <othermaciej> (not sure I even have enough deltas there)
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# [11:28] <annevk2> oh man, discussing /fakepath/ again
# [11:28] <annevk2> geez
# [11:29] <jgraham> .me wonders if there has ever been a "delta" spec that worked well
# [11:30] <annevk2> prolly not
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# [12:36] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: do you intend to work on web dom core anything this month?
# [12:36] <gsnedders_> zcorpan_: A bit, not much. I don't intend on doing much web stuff this month in general.
# [12:45] <zcorpan_> gsnedders_: ok
# [12:48] <annevk2> the TAG is making a case: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/09/TagHTMLIssues.html
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# [13:02] * hsivonen finds a future-proofing argument: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090903#l-147
# [13:03] <annevk2> ah yeah, I was trying to track that one down to point it out to you
# [13:04] <annevk2> it seems they might be misinformed on how those things work
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# [13:26] <zcorpan_> "Relating to the above, there is also the provision in 3.2.3(3.3.3) that global attributes "may be specified on all HTML elements (even those not defined in this specification)"; this strongly suggests some sort of extensibility at the element level."
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# [13:30] <annevk2> point?
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# [13:32] <zcorpan_> from TagHTMLIssues
# [13:33] <annevk2> what's the point of highlighting it here
# [13:33] <annevk2> :)
# [13:34] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: http://hg.gsnedders.com/web-dom-core/ fwiw
# [13:34] <Lachy> gsnedders, are you taking over web dom core from zcorpan_?
# [13:35] <gsnedders> Lachy: I have some intention to write a test suite for it, whether I take over editing of the spec is another question. I'll probably make some edits, but nothing that involves changing much text :P
# [13:35] <zcorpan_> annevk2: i find it interesting that they're reading between the lines
# [13:36] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: cool
# [13:36] <annevk2> zcorpan_, ah, yeah, maybe they're still used to all those specifications where that is sort of required if you want to truly understand them :p
# [13:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I thought it was no secret that HTML5 is written to allow deltaspecs
# [13:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: e.g. if <keygen> were spun off the language the TAG quotes would make a proper delta spec easier
# [13:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: maybe the TAG isn't considering this use case for the quoted spec language
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# [13:46] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: the words "decentralized extensibility" are present in TagHTMLIssues
# [13:47] <zcorpan_> more specifically in the point above what i quoted
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# [13:58] <Hixie> hsivonen: could you explain what the problem you are referring to in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1433.html is?
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# [14:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: the problem is that you have designed a feedback loop from validators to authors. however, the tool developer sits in between and deflects the feedback before it reaches the author
# [14:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: and in doing so, probably violates ATAG 2
# [14:02] <Hixie> "deflects the feedback"?
# [14:02] <annevk2> i'd love for the TAG to replace decentralized extensibility with XML namespace-based extensibility because that's what they want
# [14:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: makes the tool generate output that makes the validator stay silent
# [14:02] <Hixie> (let's pretend for the sake of this discussion that I don't care about ATAG2 and only care about making editors help authors create accessible documents.)
# [14:02] <Hixie> why would a tool generate output that makes the validator stay silent?
# [14:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you believe that <img alt=""> for a critical content image is an epsilon less accessible than <img> (if that's the dichotomy you have to work with)?
# [14:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: yes.
# [14:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: because the tool developer thinks that the validation is about syntax and that it is the job of the tool to hide the syntax from the user of the tool
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# [14:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, because the tool developer think that the tool will get better reviews if it produces syntactically errorless output
# [14:04] <Hixie> so what you're saying is you want tools to write documents that trigger different validation modes than hand-writing authors?
# [14:05] <Hixie> would tool developers not feel that they had done their part if they warned the user that their documents were non-conforming when saving if their user hasn't provided suitable information?
# [14:05] * Philip` presumes it should be possible to test that assertion by looking at current HTML editing tools, and seeing what lengths they go to to produce valid output (vs invalid output that works equally well (or better) in practice)
# [14:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes if validators are required to show messages to hand-writing authors that are motivated by WCAG and not by strictly syntactic matters
# [14:05] <Philip`> (By "that assertion" I mean one several lines earlier)
# [14:06] * Philip` wonders if anyone has already done that looking and summarised the results
# [14:06] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't understand what your last sentence means
# [14:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: evidently, BlueGriffon and iWeb developers have felt the need to output stuff that silences validators
# [14:06] <Hixie> hsivonen: ("motivated by WCAG"?)
# [14:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: substitute with "motivated by promoting accessibility awareness"
# [14:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: or whatever awareness that isn't a strictly syntactic matter
# [14:08] <Hixie> hsivonen: ok. so, let's reintroduce the <meta name=generator> hack that made the validation rules different for documents from editors.
# [14:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: that would be one way of removing my ATAG 2 contradiction concern
# [14:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: as I've said before, I've decided not to bikeshed the mechanism, so I'll refrain from discussing whether I prefer that hack or the missing marker approach mentioned by the WAI CG
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# [14:10] <Hixie> k
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# [14:17] <Lachy> wait, perhaps I'm missing something. But what issue specifically does the spec require validators to flag, which is motivated by promoting accessibility awareness?
# [14:17] <hsivonen> Lachy: alt
# [14:17] <Lachy> since when is alt now required?
# [14:18] <hsivonen> Lachy: since quite a while now
# [14:18] <hsivonen> Lachy: as in since months ago
# [14:19] <hsivonen> Lachy: except when there are certain larger structures that aren't practical for WYSIWYG tools to treat as units
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# [14:21] <mpilgrim_> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/09/TagHTMLIssues.html&charset=(detect+automatically)&doctype=Inline&group=0 is amusing
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# [14:22] <Dashiva> How surprising
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# [14:23] <Lachy> hsivonen, it still says it can be omitted, dependent on meeting other specified conditions
# [14:24] <hsivonen> Lachy: see "except when there are certain larger structures that aren't practical for WYSIWYG tools to treat as units"
# [14:27] <Lachy> hsivonen, I can't find that phrase anywhere in the spec
# [14:27] <hsivonen> Lachy: it's my phrase here on IRC
# [14:28] <Lachy> oh, oops
# [14:28] <mpilgrim_> more from TagHTMLIssues: "I was surprised to see that document.write() is not supported when parsing the XML serialization. This seems to put the nail in the coffin of XML as a serialization format for colloquial HTML."
# [14:28] <mpilgrim_> i love how they're just noticing this now
# [14:29] <hsivonen> mpilgrim_: wow
# [14:29] <Lachy> It does say "As a last resort, implementors should either set the alt attribute to the empty string, under the assumption that the image is a purely decorative image that doesn't add any information but is still specific to the surrounding content, or omit the alt attribute altogether, under the assumption that the image is a key part of the content."
# [14:29] <Lachy> I'm guessing that's where you see the contradiction since it's telling authoring tools that they can output non-conforming markup?
# [14:29] <hsivonen> Lachy: seems like a contradiction to me
# [14:29] <Lachy> ... or validator-silencing alt=""
# [14:30] <annevk2> mpilgrim_, even more surprising is that they'd like the XML syntax to become turing-complete too where they did not like that when they found out about the HTML syntax being that
# [14:31] <mpilgrim_> "...my intuition is that it could be done reasonably cleanly"
# [14:31] <Dashiva> mpilgrim_: Maybe they want to kill off the off-the-shelf parser
# [14:31] <Lachy> dammit. I don't like how the spec has slowly gone from the sensible requirements to allow alt to be omitted, to the now contradictory requirements that make accessibility people happy. :-(
# [14:31] <Dashiva> That would make transitioning to XML5 a lot easier
# [14:33] <hsivonen> mpilgrim_: I can assure you that even trying to implement document.write cleanly leads to dirtiness
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# [14:33] <annevk2> ah, XML5; still a good idea, but unclear whether it's worth the effort
# [14:35] <mpilgrim_> willful violations, global version identifiers
# [14:35] <mpilgrim_> it just goes on and on
# [14:36] <mpilgrim_> it's like a laundry list of all the things the WHATWG has rejected in the past five years
# [14:36] <hsivonen> Am I missing something or is WebKit non-compliant if you try to use document.open() merely to flip the HTMLness bit?
# [14:36] <Hixie> the spec just changed such that the bit doesn't flip
# [14:37] <Hixie> and webkit is compliant to neither the old text nor the new text
# [14:37] <hsivonen> whoa
# [14:37] <Hixie> (it throws, now)
# [14:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: why?
# [14:37] <Hixie> bz asked me to change it
# [14:37] <hsivonen> ok
# [14:37] <annevk2> no, jonas did
# [14:37] <mpilgrim_> "It may be that this 'willful violation' describes current web practice, but bringing the web into coherence with other applications should be a priority, and efforts made to reduce the causes of interoperability." yes, please go do that. and come back when you're bitter and disillusioned.
# [14:37] <Hixie> my bad
# [14:37] <Hixie> jonas asked
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# [14:38] <mpilgrim_> "HTML 5 calls for user agents to ignore normative Content-type in certain cases."
# [14:38] <mpilgrim_> sigh
# [14:39] <mpilgrim_> i can't go on, it's just too depressing
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# [14:39] <Lachy> Hixie, in webdatabase, the arguments parameter in executeSql() is, unfortunately, very prone to accidental omission. I've done it several times now, and each time I fail to detect that as that as the actual cause of the error
# [14:40] <Hixie> Lachy: suggested solutino?
# [14:40] <Lachy> I don't know yet. I'm just whinging about how badly the API has been designed.
# [14:42] <Hixie> let me know when you have a better design :-P
# [14:42] <Hixie> i don't think it's that badly designed, it's a very constrained space which doesn't leave one with many options.
# [14:45] <Lachy> so the issue is that when a statement doesn't require variable substitutions, it should be possible to invoke executeSql() by providing just a SQL statement and a callback, without having to also specify an empty array in between.
# [14:46] <annevk2> I don't think we should do that
# [14:46] <Lachy> so maybe if the variable substituion step was somehow separated from the executeSql call
# [14:46] <Hixie> we could make the argument optional
# [14:46] <Hixie> (well, overload the method with two calls)
# [14:46] <Hixie> since you can distinguish and array from a function
# [14:46] <Lachy> annevk2, from experince, I know how much it sucks to have to remember to write the null in the middle of executeSql("SELECT * FROM t", null, callback)
# [14:46] <annevk2> the whole reason it was required was to make sure people would not do their own thing
# [14:47] <Lachy> Hixie, I know, that's the problem
# [14:47] <annevk2> I don't think we should be making too many changes at this point based on limited feedback
# [14:47] <annevk2> We need more Web developers to give feedback on the API first, imo
# [14:48] <Lachy> annevk2, the problem is, once we've shipped and developers start using it, it's too late to fix problems like this
# [14:48] <annevk2> no it's not
# [14:48] <annevk2> making an argument optional is always possible later and there's no universal adoption of the API yet anyway
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# [14:52] <Lachy> Hixie, our developer said he's not comfortable with making the arguments parameter optional
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# [14:52] <Hixie> Lachy: well then i don't know what else we can do
# [14:52] <Lachy> but he's fixed our implementation so that at least we get a more meaningful error message than before
# [14:53] <annevk2> i think the reason for having it required was justified when the API was initially designed and that's mostly the reason I'd not like to change; at least not until more feedback demonstrates it's an issue
# [14:56] <Lachy> Hixie, also, can you make the webdatabase spec clearer in step 10 of the processing model, where it says:
# [14:56] <Hixie> yes, but send mail or file a bug
# [14:56] <Lachy> ok, will do
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# [15:00] <annevk2> mpilgrim_, you may want to read http://www.w3.org/mid/OFCB71EFE4.1B6A31BE-ON85257624.004EB850-85257624.005491D2@lotus.com (near the end)
# [15:00] <annevk2> mpilgrim_, no need to get upset just yet it seems ;)
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# [15:03] <Philip`> But getting upset is fun!
# [15:04] <annevk2> you know what else is fun? charset stats :p
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# [15:05] <takkaria> some of the TAG's feedback reminds me of Hixie's "Writnig specifications: knowing when to stop" post
# [15:05] <Hixie> heh
# [15:06] <Philip`> annevk2: You seem to be obsessed :-p
# [15:07] * Philip` hopes he can find all his old scripts and stuff
# [15:07] <takkaria> Hixie: though amusingly, one of the the TAG's comments is that in 3.2.5.1.7, the spec says "pointing device" without a definition, and that's one of the things you mention in your blog post as needing a definition
# [15:07] <Hixie> heh
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# [15:55] <hsivonen> the paremeter order in replaceChild always confuses me
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# [15:58] <hsivonen> whoa! Gecko puts a doctype in about:blank!
# [15:58] <Philip`> A standards-mode doctype?
# [15:58] <hsivonen> quirks
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# [16:00] <Philip`> hsivonen: I find it easy to remember that the new element is always the first argument in node-adding DOM methods (replaceChild, insertBefore, appendChild)
# [16:01] <Dashiva> I was going to say that
# [16:01] * Dashiva can never reach Philip`
# [16:02] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Blatantly Philip` is better than you
# [16:02] <Dashiva> I'm not even within comparison range
# [16:03] <hsivonen> where's the about blank draft these days?
# [16:05] <Philip`> Dashiva: It is as if you and I were in a poset
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# [16:08] <jgraham> heycam: WebIDL could do with hyperlinking "implements the interface" to some definition of what that means
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# [16:11] <Lachy> hsivonen, I started documenting the requested validator warnings in the wiki http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_Useful_Warning_Requests
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# [16:14] <Lachy> hsivonen, http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-holsten-about-uri-scheme-02.txt
# [16:15] <Lachy> hsivonen, it defines that about:blank should be an empty resource
# [16:15] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks
# [16:16] <Lachy> the fact that Gecko included a DOCTYPE was known, but wasn't considered an issue
# [16:16] <hsivonen> filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=514412
# [16:17] * Lachy will go through the list of diffs here http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML and fill out the list of potential warnings later
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# [16:36] * TabAtkins just built his first non-trivial DFA stream parser. Except for two typos, no bugs on the first try!
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# [16:36] <TabAtkins> It turns out CSV files are a regular language.
# [16:36] <Philip`> No *known* bugs?
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# [16:36] <TabAtkins> Pfft, Philip`. Have faith. This is me we're talking about.
# [16:37] <hsivonen> looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XHTML#Motivation, the stated motivations are all "wrong tomorrow" material
# [16:38] <Dashiva> Imagine how awesome the world could've been if XML wasn't draconian
# [16:40] <TabAtkins> Sigh, I know, right?
# [16:40] <hsivonen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XHTML#Valid_XHTML_documents doesn't look quite encyclopedic to me
# [16:40] <Philip`> Dashiva: I find it hard to imagine how it would be more awesome than it it is now
# [16:41] <Philip`> Seems it'd be very similar except with more invalid XML documents
# [16:42] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: it seems to be repeating information from the xhtml 1.0 spec and the mimetypes note
# [16:43] <hsivonen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML#Current_flavors_of_HTML isn't quite up to HTML5 truthiness
# [16:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: the article also quotes marketing statements from XHTML specs without associated criticism
# [16:44] <Dashiva> Philip`: We wouldn't have YSODs
# [16:46] <Lachy> hsivonen, the messiness of the wikipedia articles isn't really surprising. That's always seems to be the case with articles about topics I know anything about.
# [16:47] <Lachy> Generally, the perceived accuracy of a wikipedia article is inversely proportional to the level of knowledge possessed about the topic.
# [16:47] * TabAtkins wonders if stream parsers are normally this verbose.
# [16:47] <hsivonen> Lachy: the same goes for newspapers
# [16:47] <TabAtkins> I've got about 4 pages of text describing a really simply DFA with only a single instance of single-character lookahead, and no lookbehind.
# [16:48] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: The difference is that parts of the wikipedia article may have actually been written by someone with knowledge.
# [16:49] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: what was the conclusion for lookupNamespaceURI and setting innerHTML in XML?
# [16:49] <Philip`> TabAtkins: I guess they'd normally be described in some concise grammar format
# [16:50] <TabAtkins> Philip`, and then simply handed to a generic parser engine? Makes sense.
# [16:50] <TabAtkins> Mine's lots of linefeeds and "mode=IN_HEADER_START_LINE" stuff.
# [16:51] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Usually handed to a parser generator, which generates the (verbose, hard-to-read) parser code
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# [16:51] <Philip`> like in Yacc or ANTLR or whatever
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# [16:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: can't remember any open innerHTML issue. no conclusion on lookupNamespaceURI
# [16:52] <zcorpan_> hmm, the spec now has <meta name=generator> again
# [16:53] <zcorpan_> i thought we agreed a few years ago that it was a bad idea
# [16:53] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok
# [16:53] <TabAtkins> Makes sense. Oh look, the RFC even has an ABNF grammar (though one that appears to not specify whitespace appropriately for legacy content, so win for me?).
# [16:53] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: html5 uses lookupNamespaceURI for setting innerHTML
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# [17:15] <TabAtkins> Okay, there was one bug. Damn you, Philip`. It's fixed, and works everywhere.
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# [17:19] <Philip`> There was one (now-)*known* bug?
# [17:19] <TabAtkins> I refuse to believe there are any more bugs. ^_^ The value of test-suites has been confirmed, however.
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# [17:20] <jgraham> I refuse to believe that there are no namespace-aware XML processing libraries avaliable for perl
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# [17:24] <mpilgrim_> well, noah seems to be reading our chatlogs
# [17:24] <mpilgrim_> he responded to my criticisms and fixed his invalid markup
# [17:25] <mpilgrim_> now for some constructive feedback:
# [17:26] <mpilgrim_> people who have tried to implement document.write in text/html have said that it would be non-trivial to implement it in application/xhtml+xml
# [17:27] <mpilgrim_> HTML 5 uses the term "URL" because that's what everyone in the world uses (outside a few spec wonks in the W3C and IETF). the reason it doesn't currently reference WebAddr is because WebAddr is broken in ways that have been commented on publicly
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# [17:28] <mpilgrim_> HTML 5 calls for user agents to ignore normative Content-Type in certain cases because this is required to handle existing web content
# [17:28] <mpilgrim_> all attempts have been made to reduce the amount of sniffing going on
# [17:29] <mpilgrim_> (see adam barth's paper on the subject, and followup mozilla bugs where he successfully argued for reducing the amount of content sniffing)
# [17:29] <annevk3> it's somewhat amusing how this feedback loop works
# [17:29] <cardona507> is the html wg telcon tonight?
# [17:29] <annevk3> yes
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# [17:29] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, I fixed up the beginning of the XHTML article a bit, until I got bored.
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# [17:30] <cardona507> Thanks annevk3 - 9:00 pm San Fransisco time?
# [17:30] <mpilgrim_> the remaining sniffing rules are required to remain compatible with existing web content
# [17:30] <annevk3> cardona507, 6PM Amsterdam time?
# [17:30] <annevk3> s/?//
# [17:30] <mpilgrim_> nobody likes the situation, least of all me, who has been an outspoken opponent of content sniffing for years
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# [17:30] <annevk3> cardona507, it's in a different channel though, irc.w3.org:80, #html-wg
# [17:30] <mpilgrim_> but given that sniffing is going to occur, it is infinitely better to have it documented than undocumented
# [17:31] <cardona507> thanks
# [17:31] <AryehGregor> mpilgrim_, the Content-Type headers are usually generated on the server side by content sniffing anyway . . . or worse, just looking at the file extension.
# [17:31] <Philip`> jgraham: There is the admittedly obscure XML::Parser module, which can be namespace aware
# [17:32] <AryehGregor> So ignoring the Content-Type in those cases isn't really increasing the number of files with their content type sniffed, it's just making it more accurate. :)
# [17:32] <AryehGregor> (of course, sometimes the server really *does* mean what it says, but you can't really tell . . .)
# [17:32] <mpilgrim_> well, that's the Big Lie, that the server "knows" more about the content than the client
# [17:32] <AryehGregor> *Sometimes* it does. But often not.
# [17:32] <jgraham> Philip`: Was that sarcasm?
# [17:33] <AryehGregor> The client has to know more about what format the content is actually in, because it's the only one that actually has to render it.
# [17:33] <mpilgrim_> IIRC, it took several years to get Apache to stop defaulting unknown content types to text/plain
# [17:33] <mpilgrim_> by which time it was too late
# [17:33] <Dashiva> So many specs written before the days of shared hosting
# [17:33] <AryehGregor> If Content-Type had, from the beginning, been used for "I don't care what type this actually is, but don't treat it as anything other than type X", rather than "My best guess is this is actually a file of type X", it might actually be useful today.
# [17:34] <mpilgrim_> "bringing the web into coherence with other applications" is impossible
# [17:34] <AryehGregor> (it would have to be entirely optional, too, of course)
# [17:34] <mpilgrim_> a fool's errand
# [17:34] <mpilgrim_> much better to change the specs to reflect reality
# [17:34] <mpilgrim_> html 5 is the first in what will hopefully become a long series of descriptive specs
# [17:35] <mpilgrim_> "efforts made to reduce the causes of interoperability" this is in fact what html 5 is all about
# [17:35] <AryehGregor> It's a good idea to change reality to reflect the specs, but only if you can, and clearly for web content we can't.
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# [17:35] <AryehGregor> There's just too much of it, too scattered, much copy-pasted dating back to the dawn of time.
# [17:35] <mpilgrim_> see also, the entire parsing section and the entire error handling algorithm
# [17:36] <mpilgrim_> "the practice of importing other specifications prevents the normal evolution of standards" i actually agree with this
# [17:36] <Philip`> jgraham: Yes
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# [17:37] <Philip`> (You do have to pass a parameter to make it act in a namespace-aware way, though)
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# [17:39] <Philip`> jgraham: Oh, but Shane said "DOM implementation" rather than "XML parser"
# [17:39] <Philip`> (and XML::Parser is streaming Expat events)
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# [17:39] <mpilgrim_> "in-band global version identifiers, if new implementations handle them reasonably, may be useful for (a) authoring applications that want to track versions used for authoring (b) informative error handling when applications encounter constructs that are apparently 'in error'" in-band global version identifiers are never going to happen. there was a big discussion about this when microsoft proposed it. there was another big dis
# [17:39] <mpilgrim_> about this recently w/larry masinter.
# [17:39] <mpilgrim_> it appears to be one of those zombie ideas that can never die
# [17:40] <Dashiva> there was another big dis<cut>
# [17:40] <mpilgrim_> there was a big discussion about this when microsoft proposed it
# [17:40] <mpilgrim_> there was another discussion recently w/larry masinter
# [17:41] <mpilgrim_> authoring applications can already track versions with their own meta tags
# [17:41] <mpilgrim_> not sure which applications would use a global version identifier when they encounter errors
# [17:42] <mpilgrim_> since the error handling is precisely defined for UAs, i assume this refers to conformance checkers
# [17:42] <Dashiva> There's this story that some people might want to author for obsolete versions
# [17:42] <mpilgrim_> in which case, they should check against the latest version of the spec that they are comfortable checking against
# [17:43] <jgraham> Philip`: XML::LibXML or XML::GDOME?
# [17:43] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: Yeah, I've heard that. Do people think that the *parsers* want to care about obsolete versions, at least any more than they're currently forced to?
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# [17:44] <mpilgrim_> re: "other applicable specifications" as ian has explained to the RDF people, this is just making explicit something which has always been implicit in previous versions of HTML
# [17:44] <mpilgrim_> the world decides which other specifications are applicable
# [17:44] <mpilgrim_> it's impossible to know in advance
# [17:45] <mpilgrim_> and it's impossible to set rules in advance
# [17:45] <mpilgrim_> the people who think this is madness go strangely quiet when you point out that it's already happened multiple times, with markup they're quite fond of
# [17:46] <mpilgrim_> as a concrete example, hsivonen's validator checked for HTML5+ARIA for months (years?) before ARIA was integrated into the HTML 5 specification
# [17:46] <mpilgrim_> the hand that rocks the validator is the hand that rules the world
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# [17:49] <Philip`> jgraham: At least LibXML exposes namespace information
# [17:50] * annevk3 wonders whether to reply to Shane's email with "I thought you'd never ask." or something like that
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# [17:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I've been looking at v.nu code to see if it does any special microsyntax/datatype checking on the values of data-* attributes, but so far I find none. so it's essentially allowing any string? as with, e.g., the style attribute?
# [17:54] <mpilgrim_> (sources follow)
# [17:55] <mpilgrim_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jul/0091.html re: which specifications are "applicable" to extend HTML 5
# [17:55] <TabAtkins> Hmm. I wonder what the security context is of pages defined by data URIs.
# [17:55] <mpilgrim_> and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jul/0096.html
# [17:55] <mpilgrim_> and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jul/0097.html
# [17:55] <TabAtkins> Hell, for that matter I wonder what the behavior of relative URIs in a data URI is...
# [17:55] * TabAtkins goes to test
# [17:56] <annevk3> MikeSmith, it should be like that
# [17:56] <MikeSmith> annevk3: OK, thanks
# [17:57] <annevk3> MikeSmith, there are only constraints on what comes in place of the *
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# [17:57] <mpilgrim_> and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jul/0139.html
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# [17:58] <MikeSmith> annevk3: yeah, so as far as I can see, the spec itself does not state anything at all about constraints on the value of data-* attributes, right? (as opposed to the names)
# [17:59] <mpilgrim_> adam barth's groundbreaking research into content sniffing: http://www.adambarth.com/papers/2009/barth-caballero-song.pdf
# [18:00] <TabAtkins> The values of data-* should be completely unconstrained, subject to the obvious parsing constraints, and the idea that data-* attributes should be page-local data, not a means to expose metadata to the wider web.
# [18:01] <mpilgrim_> microsoft's versioning proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0612.html
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# [18:01] <mpilgrim_> ian's response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0637.html
# [18:01] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: thanks. just asking if there if the spec itself says anything at all about it. I couldn't find anything, just wanted to confirm
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# [18:02] <mpilgrim_> surrounding discussion about versioning: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/thread.html#msg612
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# [18:04] <mpilgrim_> most recent discussion about versioning: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0274.html and followups
# [18:04] <annevk3> MikeSmith, right
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# [18:04] <annevk3> MikeSmith, maybe it should
# [18:04] <annevk3> mpilgrim_, I hope you keep track of these notes for your book or a blog post
# [18:04] <mpilgrim_> that's what chatlogs are for!
# [18:04] <annevk3> mpilgrim_, IRC archeology is amusing admittedly
# [18:05] <mpilgrim_> more links on versioning: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1178.html
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# [18:05] <mpilgrim_> and pretty much everything linked from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4
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# [18:06] <MikeSmith> annevk3: yeah, would help if the spec said something explicit about it. guess I'll file a bug
# [18:06] <sayrer> mpilgrim_: to be fair, IE does attempt some versioning
# [18:06] <mpilgrim_> yes, their X-UA-Compatible marker
# [18:06] <sayrer> e.g. you only get their native JSON object if you get IE8 into IE8 mode using whatever lucky charm triggers it
# [18:08] <mpilgrim_> here's the definition of "lucky charm": http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ie8-mode.png
# [18:08] <TabAtkins> sayrer: Yeah, and that sucks. >_< I have to negotiate with the stupid browser to make it use the latest engine.
# [18:08] <mpilgrim_> i think everyone who says versioning is a good idea should make that flowchart their desktop wallpaper
# [18:08] <sayrer> well, Firefox broke Facebook in betas when I added JSON. IE didn't.
# [18:08] <mpilgrim_> and come back when they've gone completely insane
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# [18:09] <sayrer> not that I am in favor of doing it, or plan to try to get Mozilla to do it
# [18:09] <AryehGregor> It seems like IE is the only one to have this massive compatibility problems when it becomes more standards-compliant.
# [18:10] <annevk3> wb sayrer
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# [18:10] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Partly because sites write one version of their code for IE6, and one version for 'standards-compliant' browsers, and send the IE6 code to IE8
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# [18:10] <sayrer> the worst thing is when you want to add API that some js library already has
# [18:10] <AryehGregor> That's part of it.
# [18:10] <sayrer> I broke a bunch of stuff with getElementsByClassName too
# [18:10] <AryehGregor> Probably also because some sites are written for IE 6 only, especially on intranets.
# [18:10] <sayrer> I keep breaking stuff
# [18:11] <Philip`> sayrer: You should keep your hands off the internet before you bring the whole thing crashing down :-(
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# [18:11] <AryehGregor> And, more generally, probably because IE6 and 7 have such horrifyingly broken CSS support, and generally lousy standards compliance.
# [18:11] <AryehGregor> Other browsers tended to be more correct from the get-go, so I imagine there was less pain for them when they improved.
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> sayrer: Yeah, that does suck. That's why I like libraries that don't try to pretend they're normal js, so there's never any collision problems.
# [18:12] <AryehGregor> Plus, the more popular you are, the more likely people are to write hacks for you.
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# [18:12] * AryehGregor glares at a usage of is_gecko in MediaWiki, one of the few remaining ones that isn't "<= versionnum"-based
# [18:13] <AryehGregor> Although the most notable browser-sniffing breakage MediaWiki has seen to my memory was a five-year-old fix for Konqueror that ended up "fixing" (i.e., breaking) all versions of WebKit until the present, as well.
# [18:13] <AryehGregor> So obscure browsers get broken too by sniffing.
# [18:13] <mpilgrim_> more references for noah
# [18:13] <AryehGregor> Even sniffing that's not of the form "I don't recognize you, drop dead".
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# [18:13] <mpilgrim_> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7392
# [18:14] <mpilgrim_> titled "Please use some term other than "URL" for Web Addresses"
# [18:14] <mpilgrim_> where ian explains his thinking for using the term "URL"
# [18:15] <mpilgrim_> and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7391 "Reference to WEBADDRESS should be replaced with reference to IRIbis"
# [18:15] <mpilgrim_> which links to this feedback about IRIbis: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2009Jul/0032.html
# [18:15] <mpilgrim_> which explains how broken it was at the time of writing
# [18:15] <mpilgrim_> not sure if it's improved since then
# [18:16] <mpilgrim_> but bug 7391 is only 2 weeks old, so i'm guessing it hasn't
# [18:16] <mpilgrim_> (improved, that is)
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# [18:22] <mpilgrim_> my bugzilla-fu is weak. i can't find the bugs where adam suggested reducing the amount of content sniffing in firefox
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# [18:57] <AryehGregor> What does error 334 mean here, "Error: Bad value http://lo.wikipedia.org/wiki/ໜ້າຫຼັກ for attribute href on element a: COMPATIBILITY_CHARACTER in PATH."? http://validator.nu/?doc=http://www.wikipedia.org
# [18:57] <AryehGregor> (it's really only approximately error #4 if you only count meaningfully distinct errors :P)
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# [19:00] * AryehGregor guesses he'll need to look into the URL syntax in the standard
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# [19:04] <Philip`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_compatibility_characters
# [19:04] <Philip`> (I expect)
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# [19:24] <othermaciej> I read over the TAG's tentative feedback linked here earlier
# [19:25] <othermaciej> it looked pretty thoughtful to me, even if I don't agree with all of it
# [19:25] <takkaria> yeah, it was generally pretty good
# [19:25] <takkaria> I think some of the things they said just need to be thought through a little more and they'll disappear
# [19:25] <takkaria> like quibbling over the word "few"
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# [19:41] <Philip`> hsivonen: Have I already complained about getting java.nio.BufferUnderflowException via nu.validator.htmlparser.io.HtmlInputStreamReader.read ?
# [19:41] <jlebar> Hixie: Could you clarify for me what 7.9.6 means wrt the drag'n'drop events? The last two sentences of 7.9.6.1 are giving me particular trouble.
# [19:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I notice that v.nu currently allows, e.g., data-A, as attribute name though spec has the constraint "contains no characters in the range U+0041 .. U+005A (LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A .. LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Z)" on the name
# [19:43] * MikeSmith goes poking through code to figure out where to patch
# [19:43] <Philip`> MikeSmith: With the HTML parser, or the XML parser?
# [19:43] <Philip`> (If it's HTML then the names will always be lowercase)
# [19:43] <Philip`> (regardless of what you write in the syntax)
# [19:43] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I checked only with the HTML parser
# [19:44] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I see, yeah. but seems the validator should still emit an error message
# [19:44] <Philip`> MikeSmith: You'll never get uppercase in the attribute name, then
# [19:44] <Lachy> othermaciej, where can I find the TAG's tentative feedback?
# [19:44] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Why? text/html is meant to be case-insensitive
# [19:44] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I think that statement is meant to express a document-conformance requirement
# [19:44] <MikeSmith> aka authoring conformance
# [19:45] <annevk3> MikeSmith, no
# [19:45] <Philip`> What section is it in?
# [19:45] <annevk3> MikeSmith, well yes, but at the DOM-level
# [19:45] <Philip`> MikeSmith: "Note: All attributes in HTML documents get lowercased automatically, so the restriction on uppercase letters doesn't affect such documents."
# [19:46] <MikeSmith> ah, yeah, OK
# [19:46] * MikeSmith apologizes for the noise...
# [19:46] <Philip`> Should be an error in XML, though
# [19:46] <Philip`> *XHTML
# [19:47] <othermaciej> Lachy: scanning the logs...
# [19:47] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/09/TagHTMLIssues.html
# [19:50] <othermaciej> there it is
# [19:50] <othermaciej> also some subsequent discussion in the logs of this channel
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# [22:22] <AryehGregor> Sigh, yet another Bugzilla to subscribe to.
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# [23:25] <TabAtkins> tantek: finished up the stream-based parser for <csv>. Doesn't appear to have any bugs left in it. Spent a while trying it out on a lot of real-world data, works very nicely.
# [23:25] <tantek> that's awesome
# [23:25] <tantek> did you see the IRC chats yesterday about considering <pre selector=","> instead of <csv> ?
# [23:26] <tantek> it has nice fallback behavior
# [23:26] <tantek> sorry
# [23:26] <tantek> <pre separator=",">
# [23:26] <TabAtkins> Well, identical fallback behavior to <pre><csv>
# [23:26] * tantek has CSS hardwired in the brain
# [23:26] <tantek> with one fewer eleemnt
# [23:26] <tantek> element even
# [23:26] <tantek> both for authors in documents, and the spec as a whole
# [23:27] <TabAtkins> You'll need the header attribute too to if you want to notate the first row properly as a header.
# [23:27] <TabAtkins> I don't think that can be determined programmatically with *any* accuracy.
# [23:27] <tantek> also an optional "header" attribute that takes two values, "absent" or "present"
# [23:27] <tantek> right
# [23:27] <tantek> per http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4180.txt
# [23:28] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I've got references to where I violate 4180 in my algo. ^_^
# [23:28] <tantek> nice
# [23:28] <TabAtkins> Always by being more forgiving - my algo recognizes a superset of 4180-compliant CSVs.
# [23:29] <tantek> good to know
# [23:29] <tantek> so now I think <pre separator header> is a better proposal than <csv separator header>
# [23:29] <tantek> because it requires fewer additions to the language
# [23:29] <TabAtkins> So, if people are okay with handing <pre> two attributes that work only on a particular data format, then I'm fine with it too.
# [23:30] <tantek> I think it makes sense because a CSV is a specific kind of a PRE
# [23:30] <TabAtkins> Or, wait. Hrm, that's no good. There's no way for a native *or* js treatment to recognize them as separate from any other <pre>.
# [23:30] <TabAtkins> Not without relying on heuristics.
# [23:30] <TabAtkins> Which, admittedly, would probably be pretty reliable.
# [23:31] <Philip`> <pre separator> seems weird since there's nothing in the markup saying it's CSV-style data
# [23:31] <Philip`> (except implicitly via the definition of separator)
# [23:31] <TabAtkins> Philip`, right, that's what I was getting at.
# [23:32] <AryehGregor> There's nothing in the markup of <style>:link { color: blue; }</style> to say it's CSS, either. :)
# [23:32] <Philip`> Also, changing behaviour and appearance based on an attribute seems like a bad idea, like with <input type>
# [23:32] <AryehGregor> Or in <math>...</math> to say it's MathML.
# [23:32] <AryehGregor> Is <input type> a bad idea?
# [23:32] <Philip`> (particularly because of dynamic changes)
# [23:32] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: the *only* thing people put in <style> is CSS in practice, though. <pre> contains lots of different stuff.
# [23:33] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, not <pre separator>, would be the theory.
# [23:33] <AryehGregor> . . . I'm not sure this is useful enough to be worth adding to the spec, though.
# [23:33] <TabAtkins> You ever tried to read a plain-text CSV on the web? ^_^
# [23:33] <tantek> the presence of a non-empty "separator" attribute is what semantically identifies the existence of CSV data
# [23:33] <tantek> e.g. <pre separator=",">
# [23:34] <TabAtkins> tantek, oh, k. I assumed that the element would simply assume ",", and separator would just change it if present.
# [23:34] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Import the CSV into Google Docs; you don't need special language support
# [23:34] <tantek> no no - the attribute is not present / empty by default
# [23:34] <tantek> and setting separator="" just makes it a normal pre
# [23:34] <karlushi> <pre type="csv" separator=","> ? too complicated?
# [23:34] <karlushi> redundant
# [23:35] <tantek> karlushi - an optional type attribute that specifies a mimetype would be ok too
# [23:35] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Still non-trivial to do especially when the data is part of a page rather than the whole file.
# [23:35] <tantek> <pre type="text/csv" separator=",">
# [23:35] <TabAtkins> I can go change it to just recognize on <pre separator> real quick.
# [23:35] <tantek> easily importing/including datasets into a page has great utility for opengov and openscience
# [23:36] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Why would anyone embed CSV inline in a page rather than linking to it as an external file, when external files are great for importing into spreadsheets or databases or whatever else people want to use the data with?
# [23:36] <tantek> Philip` inline CSV has a <table> compatible DOM for easy script manipulation
# [23:37] <tantek> it's like providing a free API to any CSV
# [23:37] <tantek> TabAtkins - great
# [23:37] <tantek> an updated proof of concept is even better
# [23:37] <tantek> the DTD changes to add an attribute or two are fairly trivial too
# [23:38] * Philip` 's experience with DOM manipulation of tables does not revolve around the word "easy"
# [23:38] <tantek> Philip` - perhaps <table> DOM should be extended to support simple SQL queries on <table>s
# [23:39] <tantek> think of a page as a database, and the <table>s as tables
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# [23:40] <takkaria> is the idea to get this in the spec?
# [23:41] <karlushi> <object data="file.csv">
# [23:41] <karlushi> <p>Fallback: CSV file</p>
# [23:41] <karlushi> </object>
# [23:41] <karlushi> this would not help I guess.
# [23:41] <tantek> karlushi - right
# [23:41] <tantek> just as <object>s for Math or SVG are insufficient
# [23:42] <tantek> except that there is a TON (1000x, maybe more?) CSV data out there than MathML or SVG, combined.
# [23:42] <karlushi> http://www.google.com/search?q=filetype%3Acsv
# [23:43] <karlushi> 911 000 pour filetype:csv
# [23:43] <annevk3> most of those hits seem spam
# [23:43] <tantek> karlushi - I'm not sure Google is keeping up with al the open gov csvs that are being published especially in the past few months
# [23:44] <karlushi> this is certainly a subset of the total number
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# [23:45] <tantek> I get 912,000 but close enough
# [23:46] <TabAtkins> All right, updated code and text. http://www.xanthir.com/etc/csv.html
# [23:48] <tantek> TabAtkins - very cool.
# [23:48] <tantek> note, I think "header" should require an explicit value
# [23:48] <tantek> (just in case of future expansion etc.)
# [23:48] <tantek> header="present"
# [23:49] <tantek> and it's good re-use from RFC4180 also
# [23:49] <TabAtkins> Can't we just leave it as it is, and then in the future (if we need to specify different values) say that "header" gives you the default behavior? That'd still allow XML to do their header="header" thing.
# [23:50] <TabAtkins> Not that I'm opposed to giving @header actual values, I just like binary attributes. ^_^
# [23:50] <tantek> I prefer to avoid the potential future incompat/confusion - consider it a lesson learned :)
# [23:50] <tantek> something I got from CSS language design - no boolean properties
# [23:51] <tantek> which has actually helped with expanding some of them over time
# [23:51] <tantek> also - since RFC4180 already has terminology for it - it makes sense to just literally adopt their terminology
# [23:51] <tantek> rather than introducing another convention
# [23:52] <tantek> header="present" rather than header="header"
# [23:53] <TabAtkins> Done.
# [23:53] <tantek> sweet
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# [23:54] <hober> hmm
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# [23:54] <hober> I'd like it to work like disabled, insofar as leaving ="..." off goes
# [23:55] <TabAtkins> You mean, if it's present but has no value, it's treated as "present"?
# [23:55] <TabAtkins> How does an attribute without a value appear in the XHTML serialization?
# [23:55] <hober> <pre separator="," header>...</pre>
# [23:55] <hober> (that was the html serialization)
# [23:56] <hober> which is <pre separator="," header="header">...</pre> in xhtml
# [23:56] <hober> for consistency with disabled="", checked="", etc., I think this makes more sense
# [23:57] <TabAtkins> That's what I thought. Hmm, though. When you ask for the value of the attribute currently, it returns the empty string.
# [23:57] <hober> (though as a rule I'm symapthetic to tantek's desire for vocab reuse)
# [23:57] <hober> I'm just saying that I want <pre header> to work & be conformant in text/html
# [23:58] <TabAtkins> Well, you'll still need to say <pre separator="," header> currently.
# [23:58] <hober> right
# [23:58] <TabAtkins> (Which I don't like, and which is why I preferred <csv>.)
# Session Close: Fri Sep 04 00:00:00 2009

The end :)