/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-09-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 05 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  16. # [00:37] <annevk3> Hixie, I just read some more of that thread and if Addison Phillips is right, and that seems more likely than me being right, I was wrong above about there not being such a thing as an IRI scheme
  17. # [00:39] <Lachy> TabAtkins, I'm really struggling to understand your arguments. They just don't seem rational and it's not at all clear what you're arguing for
  18. # [00:40] <Lachy> (re the header/footer/sidebar discussion)
  19. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> Lachy: one sec, in a call at work
  20. # [00:40] <Hixie> annevk3: well fwiw, i'm struggling to understand any of that thread
  21. # [00:41] <Hixie> annevk3: i just wish people (especially julian) would stop whining about what the rules are and just say wtf they would like the spec to say to satisfy them
  22. # [00:41] <annevk3> Hixie, yeah, he's not always very constructive :/
  23. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Lachy: My point is that trying to draw semantic distinctions between header/footer/aside (used as website structure) doesn't do any good. If you can put some item in one of those locations, it's almost guaranteed to be attested in the other two across the web as well.
  24. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> So, semantically, header/footer/aside as *website structure* are very nearly the same (header being a slight exception, as it nearly always contains the site header).
  25. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> header/footer/aside used in an article carry very real and distinctly different meanings, of course. These are currently expressed in the spec.
  26. # [00:45] <Lachy> and as I tried to point out on the list, you're placing too much significance on the content alone, and ignoring the structural and contextual meanings conveyed by each
  27. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> What's the structural and contextual meaning of a blogroll being placed in the header as opposed to the footer or aside?
  28. # [00:46] <Lachy> when is a blog roll ever placed in a header?
  29. # [00:47] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B017BD2.dip.t-dialin.net)
  30. # [00:47] <Lachy> it's not introductory content, it doesn't belong there
  31. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> It's often not, because of (purely visual) size considerations. If you would like, just consider it in a sidebar or footer. What's th difference?
  32. # [00:47] <Lachy> it's not just visual consideration. It's structural and semantic
  33. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> Okay, look at, frex, http://www.igofigure.com.
  34. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> The heading area contains 6 distinct things.
  35. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> One of those is definitely appropriate for <header> (the site heading). One is possibly best in header (the main nav). The other four could be put anywhere equally well.
  36. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Those four are placed in the heading area for purely visual reasons.
  37. # [00:49] <cardona507> is this worded correctly? "The value must be a short free-form string that giving the name of the Web application that the page represents. "
  38. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> cardona507: remove the "that" from "string that giving".
  39. # [00:50] <cardona507> its from the spec
  40. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> Then it's a spec bug. ^_^
  41. # [00:51] <Hixie> file it using the bug filing widget please :-)
  42. # [00:52] <cardona507> its also in the W3C spec
  43. # [00:53] <Hixie> it's the same document
  44. # [00:54] <cardona507> for some reason I felt like the whatwg was "fresher" :)
  45. # [00:54] <Hixie> it is :-)
  46. # [00:54] <Hixie> i edit the whatwg one live
  47. # [00:54] <Hixie> then when i'm done with an editor, i run a script that commits it to svn and uploads it to the w3c with the w3c header on it
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  49. # [00:55] <Hixie> er, done with an edit, rather
  50. # [00:55] <Lachy> TabAtkins, I'm not disagreeing that their is partial overlap in the kinds of content that could potentially be included in each. But by placing, e.g., the language/country selector in the header, the designers intended for it to be part of the introductory content so it is among the first things encountered in the site.
  51. # [00:55] <Hixie> (and then every few months the w3c make a snapshot of the document to copy to the /tr/ page)
  52. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> I'm the designer, btw. ^_^
  53. # [00:55] <Lachy> While it could technically be placed in the sidebar or footer, placing it structurally near the beginning has a clear purpose
  54. # [00:55] <Hixie> (though i can't for the life of me work out why!)
  55. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> And it's placed in the heading area because the sidebar is already full enough, and putting more stuff in it would push down things that I want to be visible on pageload.
  56. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> There was no intention that it was introductory content. That blue bar up top is treated, for all intents and purposes, as an <aside> to me.
  57. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> And, given appropriate support from CSS, that totally *would* be an <aside>, placed somewhere else in the document.
  58. # [00:58] <Lachy> TabAtkins, why do you think it's most common for sites that include country/language selectors near the top of the page, rather than sticking them in sidebars or footers?
  59. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> Because you want to ensure it's seen on pageload, without taking up valuable sidebar inches.
  60. # [00:58] <Lachy> clearly, there has to be more than a purely asthetics reason for it
  61. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> It's a practical concern.
  62. # [00:59] <cardona507> hixie - is the bug filing widget the little arrow at the bottom right of the screen?
  63. # [00:59] <cardona507> on the spec that is
  64. # [00:59] <Lachy> right, a practical concern greatly affected by the chosen structure
  65. # [00:59] <Hixie> cardona507: yes
  66. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> It is, however, entirely tangential to the page itself, and certainly isn't introductory content.
  67. # [01:00] <cardona507> limited characters in the bug report widget?
  68. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> Lachy: It's only affected by the chosen structure because page layout is so impoverished on the web.
  69. # [01:01] <Hixie> cardona507: i don't think so
  70. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> Hixie: iirc, there's a limit. I was lucky that my last bug was *exactly* long enough to fit. One or two characters more would have done it in.
  71. # [01:03] <Hixie> huh
  72. # [01:03] * Hixie checks
  73. # [01:03] <cardona507> 255 characters
  74. # [01:03] <Lachy> TabAtkins, personally, I probabaly wouldn't include that witin the header element itself anyway, but it would certainly near the top, either before or immeidately after the <header>
  75. # [01:03] <Hixie> huh, i wonder why i have a maxlength
  76. # [01:04] <Hixie> i've removed the maxlength
  77. # [01:04] <Lachy> I likely wouldn't include the <nav> within the <header>, but that doesn't matter so much
  78. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Indeed, somewhere near the top. You want it exposed early on, even if it's not part of the page header. Hell, you may even want it as an <aside> appearing right in the beginning of the page stream.
  79. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Lachy: Yeah, again, that's due to layout concerns.
  80. # [01:05] * Quits: Kalms (n=rasmuska@81.161.185.108)
  81. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> Given something appropriately powerful like Template Layout, the structure would be a goodly bit different.
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  84. # [01:05] * TabAtkins notes that that's the major reason he joined the CSSWG - so he can ensure that things like layout are driven properly.
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  86. # [01:06] <Lachy> no, it's because I'd want it near the beginning, irrelevant of the design. It could just as easily be positioned at the bottom of the page with CSS
  87. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Yo, Maciej.
  88. # [01:06] <othermaciej> hello!
  89. # [01:07] <cardona507> *bug filed
  90. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> Lachy: Ideally, I'd probably do something like <aside #lang-selector /><header /><nav #main-nav /><article /><lots of navs and asides>
  91. # [01:07] <Lachy> TabAtkins, for the same reason a lot of developers include the navigation structually after the main content, but style it to be at the top
  92. # [01:07] <Lachy> sure, that would be a reasonable approach
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  96. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but for now a lot of those are going to be put in <header> because they're put at the top. And changing <aside> to <sidebar> will make this worse, of course, as no one wants to code something called <sidebar> that's positioned at the top of the screen.
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  99. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> And similarly, things will be put in <footer> that may semantically be <aside>, because they're at the bottom.
  100. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> So trying to treat them as having different types of contents won't work in practice.
  101. # [01:12] <Lachy> what, now I'm really confused. Weren't you previously arguing that using <aside> for page sidebars wasn't great because of the name, and now you're arguing that <sidebar> isn't great either?
  102. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> Heh, no, but I can see your confusion, since Hixie convinced me mid-thread that <aside> was appropriate for sidebar content. ^_^
  103. # [01:13] <Lachy> dammit, how many times do I have to repeat myself? Stop placing so much emphasis on their content alone. It's irrelevant that there is overlap between the kinds of content they can contain.
  104. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> I'm not sure how to tell what the semantics of something is apart from checking what its children are.
  105. # [01:14] * Quits: Kalms (n=rasmuska@81.161.185.108) (Client Quit)
  106. # [01:14] <Hixie> html4 used to spawn all kinds of permathreads about what it said, much like people arguing about what the bible means
  107. # [01:14] <Lachy> they are structurally different and they are used in different places for different purposes
  108. # [01:14] * Joins: Kalms (n=rasmuska@81.161.185.108)
  109. # [01:15] <Hixie> html5 on the other hand is spawning all kinds of permathreads about whether what it says is right or not
  110. # [01:15] <Hixie> i think this is a win!
  111. # [01:15] <Hixie> not quite the win i was looking for though
  112. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> They are 'structurally' different only in the sense that they are placed in visually distinct areas on the screen. That doesn't convey semantics. "Before the main content" is the only half-significant difference, because headings are put there, plus things that the page author for whatever reason want to be seen immediately (even if they're tangential to the content itself).
  113. # [01:17] <Lachy> the visual position is irrelevant to this discussion
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  115. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> I don't understand what structural difference you're alluding to, then, if it's not visual position.
  116. # [01:18] <Lachy> I give up. I really don't know how I can make it any clearer for you.
  117. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> I swear to you Lachy, I'm trying to understand. ^_^ I just have no clue what difference you're trying to convey yet.
  118. # [01:19] <Hixie> can i help?
  119. # [01:19] <Hixie> i've been mostly ignoring your discussion so far
  120. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Okay, let's get a concrete example. What's the difference, in any sense you wish to use, between a blogroll placed in an <aside> and one placed in a <footer>?
  121. # [01:22] <Lachy> I wouldn't place a blogroll in the footer
  122. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> But people do, and will. So are they conveying a difference?
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  124. # [01:23] <Hixie> do you have an example of a blog roll in a footer?
  125. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> If you want to say that *theoretically* the elements are semantically distinct, I'm fine with that. I'm talking about page-structure-in-practice.
  126. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Hmm, I'd have to go track one down.
  127. # [01:23] <Hixie> just curious
  128. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> http://www.catalyststudios.co.uk/
  129. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> http://www.problogdesign.com/resources/40-creative-blog-footer-designs/ <-- fat footers in general, with all kinds of content
  130. # [01:24] <Lachy> from the first one:
  131. # [01:24] <Lachy> <div id="footer">
  132. # [01:24] <Lachy> <p id="copyright">All original content is copyright &copy; 1998 - 2009 Catalyst Studios</p>
  133. # [01:24] <Lachy> </div>
  134. # [01:25] <Lachy> No blogroll in the footer. It's actually in the <div id=tertiary> before it
  135. # [01:26] <Lachy> from the second:
  136. # [01:26] <Lachy> <div id="footer">
  137. # [01:26] <Lachy> <p>Copyright &copy; 2007 - 2009 Michael Martin, Pro Blog Design. Icons by <a href="http://wefunction.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Function</a>.</p>
  138. # [01:26] <Lachy> <!-- /footer -->
  139. # [01:26] <Lachy> </div>
  140. # [01:26] <Lachy> <!-- /content -->
  141. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> the entire bottom is placed in a <div #tertiary>. In general, that's going to be a <footer>
  142. # [01:26] <Lachy> </div>
  143. # [01:26] <Lachy> <div id="sidebar">
  144. # [01:26] <Lachy> ...
  145. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> Check the comment at the end of the <div #tertiary> as well.
  146. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> </div> <!-- end footer div -->
  147. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> It's a footer div. That sort of thing will receive a <footer> in practice.
  148. # [01:28] <Lachy> So? The element used for the actual footer indicated by id="footer" is what would use the <footer> element. Not the #tertiary one
  149. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> Except that they *called* <div #tertiary> their "footer div".
  150. # [01:29] <Hixie> either could be used for the footer
  151. # [01:29] <Lachy> you're basing that on what appears to be a misplaced comment in the source
  152. # [01:29] <Hixie> both would be right
  153. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> They're using two distinct notions of the word "footer" here, obviously.
  154. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> Lachy: They didn't comment *any* of the children of <div #tertiary>. They only comment the overall site structure, because the </div>s are far from the opening <div>s. The comment is correctly placed.
  155. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah, I'm sure <footer> would be just fine for their copyright statement. But it will *also* be used to contain far more than that.
  156. # [01:31] <Hixie> sure
  157. # [01:31] <Hixie> that's fine
  158. # [01:32] <Hixie> as specced now you could do the above as <footer> <section> ... blog roll ... </section> <section> ... copyright ... </section> </footer>
  159. # [01:32] <Hixie> and each would be an "appendix" section rather than a "chapter" section
  160. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I know it is. My point, though, is that the sort of content it will contain will be effectively identical to the sort of content that <aside> will contain in the wild, and so the two elements can't be distinguished when used as site structure except through their visual placement.
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  162. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> Lachy's maintaining a difference beyond that which I can't discern.
  163. # [01:34] <Hixie> TabAtkins: the only difference is that "footer" is in flow, and "aside" is out of flow.
  164. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> So, are you asserting that there's a semantic difference between a blogroll put in <aside> and one put in <footer>?
  165. # [01:35] <Hixie> a blog roll is a blog roll
  166. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> I understand that, within an <article> or similar, there *is* such a difference.
  167. # [01:36] <Hixie> the only difference would be that one would be considered part of the main flow of the content, whereas the other would be considered an out-of-flow sidebar.
  168. # [01:36] <Hixie> consider a book
  169. # [01:36] <Hixie> <footer> is the back matter
  170. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> I completely agree within the context of a book, or an article, or similar.
  171. # [01:36] <Hixie> <side> is one of those sections that is styled differently that comes in between chapters or in the middle of chapters.
  172. # [01:36] <Hixie> so if the blogroll is an appendix, you'd use <footer><nav> or <footer><section>
  173. # [01:36] <Hixie> if the blogroll is to be styled as a sidebar, you'd use <aside>.
  174. # [01:37] <Hixie> if you can find a good way to say all this in the spec, file a bug so i can add it, btw
  175. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> I'm challenging the assertion that authors will, in practice, intend a distinction between blogrolls put in the sidebar and blogrolls put in the footer.
  176. # [01:37] <Hixie> i have no doubt that many will not
  177. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> Because in that context, they're page structure - nothing more than layout.
  178. # [01:37] <Hixie> but then authors can't tell the difference between <em>, <i>, <strong>, and <b>, either
  179. # [01:38] <Hixie> and i think that putting a blog roll in <aside> vs <footer> is far less of a problem than confusing those four
  180. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> I agree. ^_^
  181. # [01:41] * annevk3 is still in the hsivonen camp of making <em> and <i> synonyms
  182. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> But <em> was created as a reaction *against* <i>'s misuse (well, sorta I guess). <footer>, on the other hand, was created *because of* class="footer"'s use. If your intent is to replace class=footer with <footer>, but you draw a distinction that excludes content commonly put in class="footer", you're just fooling yourself.
  183. # [01:41] <annevk3> (and same for <strong> and <b>)
  184. # [01:41] <annevk3> (maybe obsoleting <strong> and <em>; is that controversial?)
  185. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> annevk3: (I'm sure you'd get plenty of complaints. ^_^)
  186. # [01:41] * da3d likes to pretend <strong> doesn't exist
  187. # [01:41] <Hixie> <em> and <i> were created at the same time
  188. # [01:42] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i don't think the spec draws such a distinction
  189. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> Dang, seriously? The semantic camp has lied to me!
  190. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Lachy is. You did, in saying that there's an "in flow"/"out of flow" distinction.
  191. # [01:42] <Hixie> TabAtkins: the inflow/outflow distinction doesn't exclude anything
  192. # [01:43] <Hixie> TabAtkins: it just says what the expected styling will be
  193. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> So it's just a synonym for "displayed on the side" vs "displayed at the bottom"?
  194. # [01:43] <annevk3> Hixie, that's a weak argument (if any), but no worries, I don't really care :)
  195. # [01:43] <Hixie> annevk3: i think as defined in html5 people can use <i>/<b> if they want, and people who want more flexibility for styling purposes (me) can use <em>, <strong>, <cite>, <var>, etc, where they are more useful
  196. # [01:44] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@17.226.23.126) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  197. # [01:44] <annevk3> yup
  198. # [01:44] * Quits: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@12.33.239.250) (Remote closed the connection)
  199. # [01:45] <Hixie> holy crap i'm almost completely caught up on e-mail
  200. # [01:45] <Hixie> the oldest one is from yesterday!
  201. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> Something must be wrong!
  202. # [01:45] <othermaciej> <em> and <i> were created at the same time?
  203. # [01:45] * othermaciej didn't know
  204. # [01:45] <takkaria> Hixie: including private?
  205. # [01:47] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm pretty sure http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/draft-ietf-iiir-html-01.txt is the first mention of either
  206. # [01:47] <Hixie> takkaria: no, only the main bucket
  207. # [01:47] <Hixie> takkaria: there's a bunch more feedback that is on hold for whatever reason (e.g. waiting for anne to do the encodings stuff :-) -- hi anne!)
  208. # [01:48] <annevk3> Hixie, I'm actually awaiting some research from someone at Microsoft and someone at Google for the tables on IE and Chrome/Safari
  209. # [01:48] <Hixie> k
  210. # [01:49] <annevk3> with that data it should be easier to convince IANA that certain aliases are missing
  211. # [01:49] <annevk3> (and certain encodings)
  212. # [01:50] <Hixie> if aria are too far out of touch, don't kill yourself trying to convince them, we can just start our own registry instead
  213. # [01:51] <takkaria> aria? is that a freudian slip?
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  216. # [01:53] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  217. # [01:53] <annevk3> Hixie, it took some time, but it seems they are accepting registrations for aliases that start with an x- now, both domain experts agreed to that via email
  218. # [01:53] <othermaciej> curse you, flaky hotel wifi
  219. # [01:53] <Hixie> annevk3: cool
  220. # [01:53] * TabAtkins has *finally* gotten Filament's daterangepicker fully integrated into the report generator.
  221. # [01:53] <Hixie> takkaria: um, yes!
  222. # [01:53] <Hixie> s/aria/iana/!
  223. # [01:54] <annevk3> Hixie, I don't have a good plan yet for the issues beyond registering unregistered encodings and aliases though
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  225. # [01:55] <Hixie> i imagine you can fix encodings by creating an IETF WG and just releasing new RFCs that obsolete the old ones
  226. # [01:55] <annevk3> but one step at a time and all that :)
  227. # [01:55] <Lachy> TabAtkins, I never said the distinction excludes anything. As I tried to explain to you several times, the actual content is irrelevant. I tried to explain that they had structural differences, but couldn't figure out how to explain it to you.
  228. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> I may be a lost cause, Lachy. ^_^
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  294. # [07:30] <cardona507> should <header> or <hgroup> descend from <section>?
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  310. # [08:41] <Lachy> cardona507, yes, like <section><header>...</header> <p>... </section>
  311. # [08:41] <cardona507> exactly- thanks lachy -
  312. # [08:44] <number-6> what is &#8212; ?
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  315. # [08:56] <Lachy> number-6, it's an em-dash
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  317. # [09:08] <cardona507> I currently use http://html5.validator.nu/ to validate - is there an html 5 validator button?
  318. # [09:21] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@ppp115-228.static.internode.on.net)
  319. # [09:26] <Lachy> do you mean on that says your page is valid HTML5?
  320. # [09:26] <Lachy> if so, then no
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  322. # [09:28] <cardona507> I thought that I saw one somewhere , but now I can't find the link
  323. # [09:29] <Lachy> there is one that was created as a joke, but the reason badges is described here http://about.validator.nu/#faq
  324. # [09:30] <Lachy> s/reason/reason for no/
  325. # [09:31] <Lachy> You may have seen this one before http://simon.html5.org/valid-html5.png
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  328. # [09:38] <Lachy> maybe it would be worth creating Validator.nu promotional badges for authors to use, but which don't make any claim about the validity.
  329. # [09:39] <Lachy> That way authors get to feel good about having a badge, and they promote HTML5 validation as well.
  330. # [09:50] <cardona507> I second that idea - The first time I saw the above badge it caught my eye - even if it was a joke I took notice - plus who doesn't want to brag about their html 5 prowess :)
  331. # [09:50] <cardona507> off to sleep - good night
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  356. # [12:25] <annevk3> so there's no such thing as IRI schemes after all?
  357. # [12:25] <annevk3> *confused*
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  363. # [12:51] <Hixie> annevk3: i am so tired of julian just saying "that's not what i meant, try again"
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  365. # [12:58] <Dashiva> I'd say this is pretty good empirical proof that URL/URI/IRI/etc is a mess that people shouldn't have to care about
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  367. # [13:05] <annevk3> Hixie, I guess http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2009Sep/0001.html is a good suggestion
  368. # [13:07] <Dashiva> Every new spec using IRIs has to include all that?
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  371. # [13:10] <annevk3> Dashiva, well, it's a mess, as you say
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  373. # [13:12] <Lachy> annevk3, the fact that there isn't an alternative to keygen yet isn't a reason to make it conforming as is. As I pointed out, there aren't really a significant number of authors wanting to use it anyway, and only barely enough to justify supporting it, so what's the point?>
  374. # [13:13] <Lachy> if there's really a need to address the use case it tries to solve, then I'd expect there would be significant interest in finding a real solution for it. But there isn't, so it seems like keygen is trying to solve an insignificant problem
  375. # [13:13] <annevk3> there's only a fraction of the market that needs it
  376. # [13:13] <annevk3> playing a numbers game on situations like that seems misguided
  377. # [13:14] <Lachy> making a stupid and poorly designed solution conforming for the hell of it seems even more misguided
  378. # [13:14] <annevk3> it apparently works good enough
  379. # [13:14] <annevk3> and there's no alternative
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  381. # [13:15] <Philip`> Presumably being non-conforming is good enough for the people who want to use it, because it's always been non-conforming
  382. # [13:15] <Lachy> for the few dozen sites that actually use it? Sure. The rest use activex and java applets
  383. # [13:16] <annevk3> yes, lets encourage people to use proprietary platforms
  384. # [13:16] <annevk3> -_-
  385. # [13:16] <Lachy> no, I didn't say that. My point is that keygen clearly doesn't address the problem as well as those, so pushing an inferior solution is nonsensical
  386. # [13:17] <annevk3> did you talk with the people who deploy <keygen> or what do you base this opinion on?
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  389. # [13:19] <Lachy> I haven't found any sites myself that acually use it, so there really aren't that many people to talk to.
  390. # [13:19] * annevk3 sighs
  391. # [13:19] <Lachy> it's an edge case that causes interop problems, not an edge case worthy of conformance
  392. # [13:21] <Lachy> also, since Microsoft have basically said they're not interested in implementing it anyway, authors have even more reason to avoid it as a solution.
  393. # [13:22] <annevk3> what part of lacking an alternative and vendors being forced to adopt it didn't you get?
  394. # [13:24] <Lachy> I'm not arguing against implementation. I'm only arguing against authoring conformance.
  395. # [13:24] <Lachy> it's same reason implementers have to support <font>, but we don't make that conforming to use
  396. # [13:25] <annevk3> not at all
  397. # [13:25] <annevk3> <font> has an alternative
  398. # [13:25] <annevk3> color/ font-family / etc.
  399. # [13:27] <Lachy> so the lack of alternative is your only reason for wanting to make it conforming, and encouraging more authors to use an inferior solution that is a usability nightmare and won't see significant uptake anyway?!
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  401. # [13:27] <annevk3> it doesn't need significant update, it can't be inferior if there's no alternative and I've not seen any usability studies on <keygen> so I wouldn't know
  402. # [13:28] <Lachy> it's clearly inferior to the proprietary solutions that sites are using, and will keep using regardless of keygen's conformance
  403. # [13:28] <annevk3> s/update/uptake/
  404. # [13:29] <annevk3> Lachy, so you do have stats on sites that could've used <keygen> but don't?
  405. # [13:29] <annevk3> Lachy, and solely use ActiveX?
  406. # [13:31] <Lachy> just think about what a user's response would be to being asked to pick an encryption level. I can guarantee most will just say wtf?
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  408. # [13:36] <Lachy> presumably all the korean banking sites that are mandated to use ActiveX, the Norwegian (and I think Swedish) banking sites that use the BankID java applet (though it's not really clear what exactly that java applet does, but it presumably provides some sort of extra security beyond normal HTML forms)
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  410. # [13:42] <Lachy> intersting, keygen doesn't work in Minefield with the HTML5 parser enabled
  411. # [13:43] <Lachy> apparently because keygen in the older parser actually generates a select element in the DOM
  412. # [13:44] <Philip`> The site could have lots of nice little annotated diagrams showing exactly what options to select in all the keygen options, so users wouldn't get too lost
  413. # [13:47] <Lachy> or we could just develop a solution that actually addresses the same problems addressed by the proprietary solutions, and which doesn't present meaningless options to users that the browser could choose transparently based on information specified by the site.
  414. # [13:48] <Philip`> Please feel free to work on such a thing
  415. # [13:49] * Philip` imagines it'd be too late to be an HTML5 feature
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  417. # [13:51] <Lachy> I'm not interested in working on such a solution, but others who feel this case is worth addressing and are knowledgeable about the security issues, should do it
  418. # [14:06] * Philip` wonders if he'll ever be able to actually understand how RDFa works
  419. # [14:06] <Philip`> (as opposed to mechanically following the processing instructions a few times until I converge on some idea of what the output should be)
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  426. # [14:34] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Vennligst legg igjen din følelse av logikken ved døren, takk!'
  427. # [14:34] * Set by Lachy on Wed Aug 26 20:57:24
  428. # [14:34] <krijnh> Note: DoS protection doesn't work :/
  429. # [14:46] <annevk3> ttepasse, draconian error handling is a form of error handling
  430. # [14:46] <annevk3> ttepasse, it's very different from leaving error handling undefined
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  432. # [14:50] <ttepasse> annevk3, yes, but the HTML-side error handling ist defined in the HTML Spec, ignoring the error handling in the ES-Spec (?throw an error?). The inconsistency in Hixies reasoning simply makes me go ?huh?.
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  434. # [14:55] <annevk3> ttepasse, that is not ignoring error handling
  435. # [14:56] <ttepasse> You seem to be in a different conversation than me. Huh?
  436. # [14:56] <annevk3> ttepasse, what HTML5 does does not ignore error handling in the ECMAScript specification
  437. # [14:56] <annevk3> ttepasse, when something is an error in ECMAScript it is in HTML5
  438. # [14:56] <annevk3> ttepasse, the way the error is treated is different but that makes sense because the context is different
  439. # [15:00] <annevk3> ttepasse, also, did you study ISO 8601?
  440. # [15:01] <ttepasse> Coming back to my original thingy ... in case of input/@pattern it is OK to define an error handling; in case of ISO 6801 you're forced to throw the hand in the air instead of simply declaring non-conforming datestrings as invalid and to ignored. I see no difference between both cases; Hixie does. Which makes me hope that he would sometimes explain his reasoning than going for the usual one-sentence-no.
  441. # [15:02] <ttepasse> annevk3, some years ago yes.
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  443. # [15:06] <annevk3> ttepasse, I seem to have a thing for getting involved in stuff I don't really care about, but lets try this, what do you need from ISO 8601?
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  445. # [15:10] <ttepasse> Personally? Nothing. (years less than 0000 would by nice, just out auf principle.) I just have a thing asking myself weird questions while reading whatwg and public-html. HTML 5 is my soap opera.
  446. # [15:13] <annevk3> Mkay. As for what I think the reasons are (not in order): a) you need to pay to read ISO specs b) ISO 8601 allows a lot more formats such as YYYYMMDD but not YYYYMM c) ISO 8601 does not define parsing rules d) HTML4 also defined a subset of ISO 8601
  447. # [15:13] * Joins: TabAtkins (n=chatzill@99.35.179.251)
  448. # [15:14] <annevk3> e.g. I've heard some people complain that the "T" must be uppercase, but that's exactly the same in HTML4
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  451. # [15:16] <annevk3> Anyway, comparing two completely different cases on a high level and then claiming the editor is inconsistent is almost always the wrong way to go around things, because things are complicated
  452. # [15:16] * Quits: Maurice` (n=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  453. # [15:18] <ttepasse> Things are always complicated. But a spec process which more than once called itself neutral, reasonably, backed by resarch, sometimes even scientifical should be deciverable by someone outside with enough reading time, shouldn't it?
  454. # [15:19] <ttepasse> ?ISO 8601? means by extension the W3C-date-note, RFC 3339 and XML Schemas subsets.
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  458. # [15:21] <annevk3> ttepasse, I don't think we're "well-documented"
  459. # [15:21] <annevk3> ttepasse, though presumably with enough reading of the mailing lists and IRC logs you'd get quite far
  460. # [15:21] <annevk3> (that's where I got the above information from anyway)
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  462. # [15:22] <annevk3> ttepasse, what HTML5 has is a subset (at least when looking at valid syntax)
  463. # [15:23] <annevk3> anyway, it's still unclear to me what you want :)
  464. # [15:23] <ttepasse> In the last two years I come to see the under-documentation as a bug in the process. Granted, HTML WG and WHAT WG are better than other but still.
  465. # [15:24] <ttepasse> Simply understanding, why there are screenpages after screen pages of stuff already defined elsewhere. World peace. And coffee. ;)
  466. # [15:25] <annevk3> I agree it's not perfect, but I'm not sure the comment is fair against HTML5 if you look at how e.g. most other specifications are written
  467. # [15:26] <ttepasse> My personal highlight was Tim Brays old annotated version of the first XML REC. It doesn't explain everything but it gave a great view into the reasoning of the first XML wg.
  468. # [15:27] <annevk3> Having said that, we've been trying to find someone to document the reasons features exist, etc.
  469. # [15:27] <annevk3> Nobody has volunteered in the past two or three years we've been looking for that person
  470. # [15:28] <TabAtkins> I didn't know anybody was looking.
  471. # [15:28] * TabAtkins would possibly be interested.
  472. # [15:34] <annevk3> TabAtkins, email Hixie
  473. # [15:34] <TabAtkins> k
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  496. # [16:46] <ttepasse> Oh. http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ seems down.
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  508. # [17:21] <cardona507> i am still attempting to grok <section>. Does <canvas> descend from <section>?
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  511. # [17:29] <TabAtkins> ...no? <canvas> is completely unrelated.
  512. # [17:29] <TabAtkins> <section> is just a special flavor of <div>. It resets your heading levels and should have a heading itself.
  513. # [17:30] <cardona507> tabatkins - I guess <section> is defined kinda generically "The section element represents a generic document or application section. A section, in this context, is a thematic grouping of content, typically with a heading, possibly with a footer." so I am unclear what falls in a heading. no <canvas>.. how about <video> _ also- thanks
  514. # [17:31] <cardona507> or <audio>?
  515. # [17:31] <TabAtkins> A heading is <h1-6>, possibly grouped with an <hgroup>.
  516. # [17:32] <cardona507> ^*I am unlcear what falls in a <section> oops
  517. # [17:33] <TabAtkins> Oh, anything can fall in a section. Like I said, it's just a special flavor of <div>. Using <section> rather than <div> indicates that the contents form a coherent section of the document/application, and it would make sense to make this a line in a document outline.
  518. # [17:33] <TabAtkins> So yes, <canvas>/<video>/<audio> can all appear in a <section>.
  519. # [17:34] <TabAtkins> (When you said 'descend from', I thought you meant that the two were related in some way.)
  520. # [17:35] <cardona507> I did - I am saying <section><canvas id="" width="" height=""></canvas></section> - correct?
  521. # [17:35] <cardona507> ahhhh- gotcha - thanks tabatkins
  522. # [17:36] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's potentially correct, as long as that <canvas> would be part of an actual *section* of your document. If you just need a container element around it, like for CSS purposes, then use <div>.
  523. # [17:37] <TabAtkins> Again, if you're not giving the <section> a heading, you probably shouldn't use it.
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  529. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> Damn, I have new respect for people writing parsers.
  530. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> Especially CSS, where so much is implicit. Shit is hard.
  531. # [18:12] * gsnedders prefers just filing bugs on them doing it wrong :P
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  533. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but I'm trying to be impressive here and demonstrate that my proposed syntax is easy to write. So I'm making a parser for it.
  534. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> Then I'll write the thing that *uses* the syntax.
  535. # [18:25] * gsnedders wants feelings back in his feet
  536. # [18:26] <gsnedders> s/gs/g/
  537. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> Are your feet depressed? Is the world gray and lifeless to them? Do they have a hard time getting out of bed in the morning, because there's just nothing worth it out there?
  538. # [18:29] <gsnedders> No, the world is frequently black and lightless to them.
  539. # [18:29] <gsnedders> (Also, I do like how in this B&B room I only get wifi at one end of my bed)
  540. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> Ooh, where you staying?
  541. # [18:30] <gsnedders> Southampton
  542. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> Somewhere near the shore, I would hope?
  543. # [18:32] <gsnedders> Not really. There's just docks there
  544. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> Bah, england is useless. At least you've got a big national park just a few km away.
  545. # [18:40] <erlehmann> With CCTVs ? I *really* want to know what CASE NIGHTMARE GREEN is.
  546. # [18:40] <erlehmann> But, alas I do not have enough clearance.
  547. # [18:41] <erlehmann> Incidentally, I'm heading off to the laundry. Just washing my stuff, of course.
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  550. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: http://www.goldengryphon.com/Stross-Concrete.html
  551. # [18:52] <erlehmann> Yes, TabAtkins. Yes, indeed.
  552. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> Oh, I see what you're saying. ::whoosh::
  553. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> In any case, Stross is awesome and I love him.
  554. # [18:56] <erlehmann> That reminds me that I borrowed „Halting State“ from some hacker gal …
  555. # [18:56] <erlehmann> Did I return it ?
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  565. # [20:17] <annevk3> http://johnnyholland.org/2009/09/05/utopians-and-idealists-how-to-design-products-fitting-the-needs-of-the-users-most-likely-to-use-them/
  566. # [20:22] <othermaciej> good day
  567. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> yo, maciej
  568. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> http://www.abernier.name/griddesign/#page1
  569. # [20:27] <TabAtkins> somebody just shared this over in #microformats, and I thought it was very clever and cool.
  570. # [20:32] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: that's neat - what is it?
  571. # [20:32] * othermaciej is too lazy to inspect the style and markup
  572. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> It's a CSS table, where each cell is width:100%, height:100%, and given a unique id. The nav is just anchor links to the cell ids.
  573. # [20:33] <othermaciej> I see, it uses anchor navigation to scroll to the different panes
  574. # [20:33] <othermaciej> clever
  575. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> Yus.
  576. # [20:34] <othermaciej> it looks nice in Safari because of our smooth scrolling
  577. # [20:34] <othermaciej> looks good in Firefox too, at least on Mac
  578. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> Firefox does it nicely too, yeah.
  579. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> The only thing he needs to do is listen for resize and reposition the viewport, as resizing your window will make it no longer align with the grid boundaries (until you click the nav again).
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  585. # [20:41] * gsnedders needs better wifi
  586. # [20:42] <TabAtkins> Apparently.
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  613. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> Hrm, my homepage tries to peg my processor now. Granted, my computers are definitely both dated, but still. I can run Tori's Eye just fine, and that's the same deal.
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  615. # Session Close: Sun Sep 06 00:00:00 2009

The end :)