/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-09-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 12 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> Woo I got my friend to abuse his connections to get tickets to one of my favorite artists!
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  33. # [00:55] <and> annevk2: The table seems to match IE8 apart from the (???) encodings, most of which are supposed to be EBCDIC-based but are decoded as US-ASCII, so perhaps not supported at all.
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  35. # [00:57] <and> I have no idea what x-europa is, and there are several new Taiwanese encodings, but it does not seem too bad in general.
  36. # [01:01] <and> (I obviously got off to a bad start yesterday with the (???) ones.)
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  49. # [01:25] <Philip`> Hixie: You have a bogus </colgroup> that is breaking my attempt to run the spec-splitter :-(
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  51. # [01:25] <Hixie> oops
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  53. # [01:26] <Hixie> um
  54. # [01:26] <Hixie> why is it broken
  55. # [01:26] <Hixie> source seems ok
  56. # [01:26] <Philip`> and the spec-splitter happily dies and then uploads it non-existent output and thus deletes the multipage spec
  57. # [01:26] <Hixie> what's broken about it?
  58. # [01:27] <Philip`> <table class=apple-table-examples><col></colgroup><col><col><col><thead><tr><th> <th>2008 <th>2007 <th>2006
  59. # [01:27] <Hixie> wtf
  60. # [01:27] <Hixie> that must be a libhtml bug
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  62. # [01:27] <Hixie> or libxml
  63. # [01:27] <Hixie> or whatever we're using
  64. # [01:27] <Philip`> That's quite possible
  65. # [01:27] <hober> I've written a blog post about how to use HTML5's new sectioning elements.
  66. # [01:27] <hober> Would anyone like to review it before I publish? I want to be sure I'm making good recommendations. I'd rather the article reduce, not add, to the confusion around these elements.
  67. # [01:28] <Philip`> (I'm using libxml for parsing, because html5lib is unbearably slow)
  68. # [01:28] <Hixie> hober: can't review right now, but i'd be happy to do so after my meeting which starts in 10 minutes
  69. # [01:28] <Philip`> (Also, this is the index document, not the source document)
  70. # [01:28] <Philip`> lxml.etree.XMLSyntaxError: Unexpected end tag : colgroup, line 29957, column 53
  71. # [01:29] <hober> Hixie: ok, I'll /msg you the link; please review at your leisure
  72. # [01:29] <Philip`> (using etree.HTMLParser)
  73. # [01:30] <Philip`> Is this something that is easily fixable without me doing anything?
  74. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> hober, I'll take a look.
  75. # [01:36] <Philip`> annevk2: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/introduction.html - now with added TOC
  76. # [01:37] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/commands.html - it's a little peculiar on certain pages, but I think it's probably about correct
  77. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> Philip`, I love the new TOCs.
  78. # [01:37] <Philip`> Hmm, the toc.js script messes things up a bit :-(
  79. # [01:37] <Philip`> Hixie: Is there some way toc.js could be disabled on the mini-TOCs in the multipage view?
  80. # [01:38] * Philip` temporarily switched to the html5lib parser, but it's too resource-intensive for him to be particularly happy running it
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  145. # [06:07] * Hixie is proud of his table examples
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  177. # [08:55] <othermaciej> hi all
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  190. # [10:27] <annevk3> Philip`, sweet
  191. # [10:28] <annevk3> Philip`, for the introduction page the "full table of contents" should probably not be there
  192. # [10:28] <annevk3> Philip`, and the link above it, it's not present on other pages either
  193. # [10:28] <Philip`> annevk3: I blame Hixie for that
  194. # [10:29] <Philip`> since toc.js adds the full table of contents automatically
  195. # [10:29] <annevk3> ah
  196. # [10:29] <annevk3> i see, it's also present on full table of contents
  197. # [10:29] <annevk3> maybe toc.js should recognize a class name or something
  198. # [10:29] <Philip`> Hixie: It's all your fault :-(
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  200. # [10:30] <Philip`> annevk3: I think I have to use class="toc" to get the right styling, but could add an extra class to make toc.js ignore it
  201. # [10:30] <annevk3> that could work, or hixie adds a class to the main toc; either way
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  211. # [10:49] <annevk3> Hixie, pretty sure that if the fieldset is disabled the contents of the legend element are too
  212. # [10:50] <annevk3> in Opera they are
  213. # [10:50] <annevk3> which is per spec
  214. # [10:50] <annevk3> Hixie, so the fieldset example will never work
  215. # [10:51] <annevk3> Hixie, I'd move the checkbox into a <p> or so before the fieldset
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  223. # [11:25] <Hixie> annevk3: should we fix that?
  224. # [11:25] <Hixie> the spec i mean?
  225. # [11:25] <Hixie> seems like a reasonable use case
  226. # [11:25] <Hixie> anyway i gotta sleep now
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  228. # [11:36] <annevk3> I guess we could
  229. # [11:37] <Lachy> would it work to just say that controls within the <legend> don't get disabled along with the fieldset?
  230. # [11:38] <annevk3> spec-wise it's no problem
  231. # [11:38] <annevk3> just wondering about implementation complexity with dynamic updates and all
  232. # [11:38] <annevk3> not more crazy I guess than other stuff, but the question is whether it's worth it
  233. # [11:39] <Lachy> I'd be more convinced if there were real sites built with equivalent functionality
  234. # [11:39] <annevk3> sites prolly will if the styling issue gets solved
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  252. # [14:01] * Philip` tries to work out whether he should be using zh or zh-CN or zh-Hans
  253. # [14:01] <Philip`> Languages are too confusing :-(
  254. # [14:05] <annevk2> don't bother tagging it?
  255. # [14:05] * annevk2 tries to work out which alias table Safari is using for ICU
  256. # [14:05] <Dashiva> zh-x-Philip`
  257. # [14:06] <Philip`> annevk2: I need to at least have some language code for the filename
  258. # [14:06] <Philip`> so I might as well use the correct one
  259. # [14:07] <annevk2> why is that?
  260. # [14:08] <Philip`> Because of a pointless desire for correctness
  261. # [14:08] <annevk2> carry on then :)
  262. # [14:12] <Philip`> So which one is correcter? :-)
  263. # [14:18] <and> Philip`: zh-CN looks wronger/older; zh-Hans is preciser (so likelier to be incorrect).
  264. # [14:19] <and> (Apart from that, CN would be associated with mainland China, and Hans with simplified ideograms, which originated there.)
  265. # [14:20] <annevk2> was to be expected: http://meiert.com/en/blog/20090911/html-5-or-html5/
  266. # [14:21] <annevk2> Philip`, zh seems safest if you're unsure
  267. # [14:22] <Philip`> http://blog.whatwg.org/spelling-html5 - "Isn’t 5 a *version number*? As in HTML 4.01. Shouldn’t it actually be HTML 5?"
  268. # [14:22] <Philip`> That seems a good argument to call it "HTML5", so people don't think it's a version number
  269. # [14:24] <annevk2> and, new grouping is nice btw
  270. # [14:24] <Philip`> annevk2: I'm sure it's simplified Chinese, written by someone from mainland China, so the issue is just what code to use (rather than what language it is)
  271. # [14:25] <Philip`> The person who wrote it called it zh_cn, but e.g. http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/ seems to indicate zh-Hans is newer and more consistent and accurate
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  274. # [14:28] <annevk2> are you sure it's not zh-Hant?
  275. # [14:28] <annevk2> anyway, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5646 seems to suggest a couple of those are at least out of date (though still valid for backcompat reasons)
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  277. # [14:30] <and> Hant/Hans means traditional/simplified Han characters (ideograms).
  278. # [14:31] <and> The use of CN to mean Hans is obsolete, but probably still fine to indicate mainland China.
  279. # [14:31] <and> (as I understand it, anyway)
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  281. # [14:32] <annevk2> language tags certainly became a whole lot more complicated since I last looked at it
  282. # [14:37] <and> Hierarchically constructed tags like zh-Hans-CN are nice in theory, but I am not sure they are handled reasonably by matching algorithms.
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  284. # [14:40] <and> annevk2: Glad you like it. I tried to choose clear and uncontroversial categories, but the labels are not completely self-explanatory (e.g., Mac CJK encodings belong to the CJK group, not to the Mac group). I hope I did not change anything in the process.
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  286. # [14:40] <annevk2> oh, I haven't checked that
  287. # [14:41] <annevk2> it makes it a lot easier to compare browsers anyway
  288. # [14:42] <annevk2> once the data is more complete I plan to write a scraper that allows you to run comparisons on it
  289. # [14:42] <and> Well, I tried to be careful.
  290. # [14:42] <and> That is a good idea. We might want to add the IANA registry as a "browser" as well.
  291. # [14:43] <annevk2> yeah
  292. # [14:43] <annevk2> unfortunately it seems i'm booked for most of the weekend at least until sunday evening so it'll have to wait a little
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  336. # [17:32] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/rdfa/google-rich-snippets.html - it's a bit pathetic really
  337. # [17:33] <Dashiva> wau
  338. # [17:34] <Dashiva> Looks like something you'd make with regular expressions :)
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  341. # [17:37] * gsnedders sighs at British train prices
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  347. # [18:06] <gsnedders> So a ticket from Reading to Leuchars is the same price as one from Birmingham New Street to Leuchars. That makes sense.
  348. # [18:07] * Joins: miketaylr (n=miketayl@64.119.130.114)
  349. # [18:07] <gsnedders> That's untrue. There is a slight difference.
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  351. # [18:14] <Philip`> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0124.html
  352. # [18:14] * Philip` hopes he didn't make too many stupid mistakes
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  357. # [18:19] <Dashiva> Philip`: I expect one response will be "But nobody is going to use v:g/#Person so it's just silly to support it"
  358. # [18:22] <Philip`> Then I might respond that some people seriously considered xmlns:http="http:" as a valid trick to transition to non-prefix-based URLs, which would be broken by this kind of thing
  359. # [18:23] <Dashiva> They were silly too
  360. # [18:24] <Philip`> Recent experience indicates RDFa people are happy with requiring specific behaviour for invalid input anyway, even when it's weird edge cases
  361. # [18:25] <Philip`> (and any disagreement is just about how explicitly and clearly it needs to be specified, vs being determined by the spec authors' intentions)
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  366. # [18:55] <Philip`> "we will [...] deviate from the standard in some cases to be forgiving of webmaster errors. For example, we expect that some webmasters will forget the xmlns attribute entirely." (says a person from Google)
  367. # [18:55] <Philip`> Hooray for standards and interoperability!
  368. # [18:56] <hober> I think the Google parsing behavior sounds reasonable, at least as a forgiving, "real-world" processor of RDFa bits and pieces that survive copy&paste
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  370. # [18:57] <hober> It seems like the extent to which they're deviating from RDFa-as-specified is the extent to which RDFa-as-specified isn't a web-ready tech...
  371. # [19:01] <Steve^> Should an element with display: none be included in the outline?
  372. # [19:01] <Philip`> If they want something that's forgiving and web-ready and works in the real world, and don't think RDFa is suitable for that, then they shouldn't pretend to support RDFa
  373. # [19:03] <Philip`> Then they could simplify it further (e.g. not use xmlns at all), and would no longer be flagrantly violating standards
  374. # [19:03] <Philip`> It'd be good if they documented whatever they implement, too
  375. # [19:03] <hober> indeed
  376. # [19:04] <hober> I'm just saying I think the RDFa folks should take a different lesson than the one I think they'll take from this
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  378. # [19:04] <Philip`> Steve^: Yes
  379. # [19:05] <Philip`> since CSS is just an optional rendering thing
  380. # [19:05] <Philip`> Maybe <whatever hidden> shouldn't be included, though
  381. # [19:05] <Philip`> ("shouldn't" in terms of what's sensible, not necessarily what the spec says)
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  383. # [19:10] <Steve^> It is good to avoid the "untitled section" in an outline
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  387. # [19:22] <Philip`> (For future reference: That quote is from http://www.w3.org/mid/6934bc6b0909120945l7e721b90pda3ec06ca4d4c917@mail.gmail.com which doesn't exist since it hasn't hit the list yet)
  388. # [19:22] <Philip`> (The Google RDFa quote, that is)
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  390. # [19:28] <jgraham> Steve^: Yes. Indeed if you use one of the techniques that shows things to AT but not to ordinary browsers (e.g. the left -10000 thing) it is even better
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  410. # [22:23] <hober> OK, I've published my blog post about how to use sectioning elements correctly http://edward.oconnor.cx/2009/09/using-the-html5-sectioning-elements
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  413. # [22:45] <Lachy> hober, did you make any changes since I reviewed it earlier?
  414. # [22:45] <hober> only a handful of litle edits; nothing major
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The end :)