/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-09-23 / end

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1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 23 00:00:00 2009
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:01] <sicking> Hixie: really? you're complaining that other peoples specs should be split into separate specs? ;-)
4. # [00:02] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@210-84-32-112.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
5. # [00:02] <Hixie> or chapters
6. # [00:02] <Hixie> and hey, i've split html5 into an ungodly number of specs by now
7. # [00:02] <Hixie> so it's not like i don't have a leg to stand on :-P
8. # [00:02] <gsnedders> You haven't split window out yet ;P
9. # [00:03] <Hixie> that'll never happen
10. # [00:03] * Joins: fishd_ (n=darin@nat/google/x-moqhbakrbpdpztpg)
11. # [00:03] <gsnedders> (Yes, yes, yes, I know you want xdoc xref)
12. # [00:03] <sicking> but Window is the one that need it the most
13. # [00:04] <Hixie> splitting Window would take me months
14. # [00:05] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
15. # [00:05] <sicking> Hixie: get crackin' ;)
16. # [00:05] <Hixie> not
17. # [00:05] <Hixie> gonna
18. # [00:05] <Hixie> happen
19. # [00:05] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@BAE387a.bae.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
20. # [00:06] <sicking> boooo
21. # [00:09] <sicking> Hixie: i'm implementing your dope XBL2, i think you owe me
22. # [00:09] <gsnedders> sicking: Stop implementing it!
23. # [00:09] <sicking> gsnedders: huh?
24. # [00:09] <gsnedders> sicking: Go on strike!
25. # [00:09] <Hixie> sicking: i owe you big, if you really do implement it!
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27. # [00:09] <sicking> gsnedders: hah
28. # [00:09] <sicking> Hixie: sounds like we have a deal
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30. # [00:10] <sicking> though i suppose i could choose something more fun
31. # [00:10] <sicking> like multiplex support for websocket
32. # [00:10] <sicking> or some CSS goodness
33. # [00:10] <gsnedders> Window! Window!
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36. # [00:14] <mpilgrim> "RDFa: for when interoperability really, really, really doesn't matter." (c.f. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0895.html )
37. # [00:15] * gsnedders wonders what he's been missing on public-html this past month
38. # [00:18] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@74.125.59.73)
39. # [00:19] <Dashiva> mpilgrim: That's incorrect. Interoperability matters. It will just happen magically by itself.
40. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Ooh, sicking, I'll be happy if you implement XBL2 too!
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42. # [00:20] <Dashiva> Although it seems absurd to define a high-level concept like RDFa using source level concepts
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44. # [00:21] <Hixie> sicking: we should do lunch at some point to talk about multiplex in websocket. i'm not convinced either way on that, and everyone i speak to for advice is giving me different answers, ranging from "it's critical" to "it would be actively harmful"
45. # [00:29] <mpilgrim> dashiva: I like how Shane says "I am *convinced* it would render the same prefix mappings"
46. # [00:29] <mpilgrim> despite a complete lack of evidence that that is true
47. # [00:29] <mpilgrim> and in the face of compelling evidence that it is false
48. # [00:29] <mpilgrim> but he *believes*, so maybe that's enough
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50. # [00:29] <mpilgrim> actually, that would expain a lot
51. # [00:30] <mpilgrim> "RDFa: the faith-based alternative to interoperability"
52. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> Hehe.
53. # [00:31] <Dashiva> It brings new meaning to "We believe in interoperability"
54. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Gah, I keep trying to write </endif>
55. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> That's both wrong *and* redundant.
56. # [00:32] <sicking> Hixie: i'm in
57. # [00:32] <sicking> Hixie: after the end of this quarter
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59. # [00:33] <sicking> mpilgrim: IMHO the whole discussion shows that XML namespaces is just too complicated
60. # [00:33] <sicking> mpilgrim: things were so much easier when a nodes identity was in its name only
61. # [00:33] <Dashiva> But they don't use namespaces, they just the syntax of namespaces without any of the meaning
62. # [00:33] <sicking> mpilgrim: of course, RDFa just piles on the namespace mess
63. # [00:34] <Hixie> sicking: how's friday next week (10/2)?
64. # [00:36] <sicking> Hixie: could we do thursday? I hope to work from home that friday
65. # [00:36] <Hixie> sure, noon on thursday? meet in b43? or we can eat on castro if you like
66. # [00:36] <hober> mpilgrim: Shane believes all sorts of weird things. http://edward.oconnor.cx/2009/07/web-worldview
67. # [00:37] <Hixie> sicking: la fiesta is good too if you like
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69. # [00:39] <mpilgrim> hober: the w3c's primary responsibility hasn't been "moving the web forward" in a *long* time
70. # [00:39] <mpilgrim> if ever
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72. # [00:39] <mpilgrim> a gracious interpretation of their mission would be "moving the intranet forward"
73. # [00:39] <mpilgrim> very gracious
74. # [00:40] <Hixie> it's primary _responsibility_ has been "moving the web forward"...
75. # [00:40] <sicking> Hixie: either works. Haven't been to either place in a while
76. # [00:40] <Philip`> The web is hard to move, so it's much easier to just redefine the web to be something that's much easier to move because it doesn't have a billion users sitting on top of it already
77. # [00:40] <sicking> Hixie: might be easier for me to get up there, what with having a car and all
78. # [00:41] <Hixie> sicking: la fiesta is walking distance from my house, so they're both fine for me
79. # [00:41] <mpilgrim> viewing RDFa as a faith-based lifestyle choice resolves all sorts of questions, actually
80. # [00:41] <sicking> Hixie: oh, cool, lets do that then
81. # [00:41] <Hixie> right-o
82. # [00:41] * Hixie calendars himself
83. # [00:41] <mpilgrim> the whole "that's a pathological test case, so my answer would be 'just don't do that'" thing
84. # [00:41] * gsnedders ought to go to northern CA sometime
85. # [00:41] <Hixie> thursday 10/1 noon at la fiesta, meet with sicking about multiplexing
86. # [00:41] <mpilgrim> you're not testing his spec
87. # [00:41] <mpilgrim> you're testing his faith
88. # [00:41] <mpilgrim> and his faith can not be shaken
89. # [00:42] <mpilgrim> a true believer would not write such a test case
90. # [00:43] <Philip`> It seems RDFa proponents are focusing mostly on the important but obvious and thus uninteresting aspects, like whether <!doctype html><p xmlns:ex="..." property="ex:..."> in text/html should work (which it obviously should)
91. # [00:43] * aroben|afk is now known as aroben
92. # [00:44] <Philip`> while some other people are focusing on the less important but more complex aspects, like precisely defining handling of unobvious edge cases
93. # [00:46] <Philip`> so it's not helpful when proponents keep pointing out that the simple obvious cases work, because obviously they do, and we're interested in the weird crazy things because that's where the spec is broken
94. # [00:47] <Philip`> (and that's where there's little interoperability in current implementations)
95. # [00:48] <mpilgrim> i have to believe there's a bit of "it's hard to get a man to understand something when his paycheck depends on not understanding it" going on here
96. # [00:48] <mpilgrim> (with apologies to upton sinclair, who was talking about something far more important)
97. # [00:49] <mpilgrim> Philip`: yes, but how do you explain their reaction to evidence that there is little interoperability in the implementations they cite?
98. # [00:49] <mpilgrim> their reaction to google's not-really-RDFa implementation was "that's not a validator"
99. # [00:50] <Dashiva> mpilgrim: Also, it only happens in edge cases, they don't matter in the real world
100. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> I'm just skimming the convos, but that didn't make any sense to me. Of course it's not a validator. No one's claiming it is. They're claiming it's not a *consumer*.
101. # [00:50] <Philip`> In the past there was explicit agreement that RDFa ought to precisely specify the output triples for any input (regardless of validity), so that doesn't seem contentious, so I don't know why there seems to be so much pushback against actually specifying it clearly
102. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> At least, not a consumer that anyone can rely on to consume the RDFa that they put into their pages, following the spec as closely as possible.
103. # [00:51] <mpilgrim> dashiva: right, they haven't yet internalized that the entire world is just a massive collection of edge cases
104. # [00:51] <Philip`> (Google's RDFa thing has even more serious problems, like thinking HTML with <p property=...>...<p property=...> is two nested elements)
105. # [00:51] <Dashiva> Philip`: Well, RDFa works on source level text, what is there to expect?
106. # [00:51] <mpilgrim> like hixie's and hsivonen's explanation to that i18n dude that, for the purposes of the character encoding detection algorithm, the entire web was a legacy environment
107. # [00:51] <hober> Dashiva: and, of course, the real world actually looks like a http://www.bakersedge.com/ pan
108. # [00:52] <Philip`> Dashiva: Only the namespace stuff works on source level text, the HTML+RDFa draft explicitly says that the processing model operates on a tree model
109. # [00:52] <mpilgrim> (on second thought, "that i18n dude" might have been a woman. if so, i apologize)
110. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> ...why did that require a flash app with a 5-second loading time.
111. # [00:52] <Philip`> Dashiva: (Don't ask me how those two views are meant to fit together)
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113. # [00:53] <Dashiva> Philip`: How are they meant to fit together?
114. # [00:53] <Philip`> Dashiva: Curses!
115. # [00:53] <mpilgrim> philip`: well, shelleyp did say (many moons ago) that the DOM was not an environment that was terribly important to her
116. # [00:53] <Dashiva> It's an important question, though
117. # [00:53] <Philip`> Dashiva: Now I'll have to intentionally refuse to answer you
118. # [00:53] <Dashiva> Wanting both source text and object model at the same time is kinda schizophrenic
119. # [00:53] * drunknbass_work is now known as drunknbass_work|
120. # [00:53] <mpilgrim> if you ignore all those crazy DOM consumers, i bet RDFa works just fine
121. # [00:54] <mpilgrim> and the XOM consumers
122. # [00:54] <mpilgrim> and the consumers that use off-the-shelf parsing tools
123. # [00:54] <mpilgrim> and Google
124. # [00:54] <hober> shane and hsivonen's back-and-forth re: defined-in-terms-of-text v. defined-in-terms-of-an-object-model reminded me of Hixie's lunch with the TAG: http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1180683614&count=1
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126. # [00:55] <Philip`> The HTML+RDFa draft seems to still talk about the concrete syntax of namespace attributes, and so it seems to (unintentionally?) say that XMLNS:EX="..." should work in XHTML just the same as in HTML
127. # [00:56] <mpilgrim> lol @ "The HTML working group is supposed to publish something (I suggest the spec)"
128. # [00:56] <Philip`> which seems to be the kind of confusion that results when you talk about things in terms of syntax
129. # [00:57] <Philip`> because you're mixing conceptual levels, trying to talk about the syntax that results in a certain parsed output (in this case lowercased attribute names)
130. # [00:57] <Philip`> or, uh, something like that
131. # [00:57] <Philip`> Please feel free to imagine my points are more coherent
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133. # [00:58] <Dashiva> Philip`: They're no less coherent than the spec ;P
134. # [00:59] <mpilgrim> dashiva: you just don't *believe* hard enough
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136. # [00:59] <Dashiva> I believe I can parse, I believe I can touch the graph
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140. # [01:02] * drunknbass_work| is now known as drunknbass_work
141. # [01:03] * Philip` notes that RDF itself seems to be clearly and precisely specified, from what he's seen of it
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143. # [01:04] <Philip`> like it defines all the conceptual models it uses, and uses them correctly without accidentally mixing levels
144. # [01:05] <Philip`> but RDFa seems much more confusing and seems to leave more things undefined
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147. # [01:10] <Philip`> e.g. RDF does stuff like defining XMLLiteral with "The lexical space is the set of all strings ... for which encoding as UTF-8 yields exclusive Canonical XML" where they didn't even forget to map Canonical XML octet streams on Unicode strings, which is good
148. # [01:10] <Philip`> whereas RDFa says "The value of the [XML literal] is a string created by serializing to text, all nodes that are descendants of the [current element], i.e., not including the element itself, and giving it a datatype of rdf:XMLLiteral."
149. # [01:10] <Philip`> which is firstly using "value" incorrectly
150. # [01:11] <Philip`> (It should be specifying the lexical form, not the value, because there's only a one-way mapping from lexical form to value, not the other way)
151. # [01:11] <Philip`> (and then it sounds like it's "giving it [the value] a datatype" which is wrong because the literal has the datatype, not the value)
152. # [01:12] <Philip`> and then it completely fails to say how you're meant to serialise the nodes
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158. # [01:25] <drunknbass_work> i know this isnt js but maybe someone could help me with something :P
159. # [01:26] <drunknbass_work> please explain the proper way to call the function in http://pastie.org/626748
160. # [01:26] <drunknbass_work> inside of the setNeedsDisplay i this.ctx.clearRect(0, 0, this.ctx.width, this.ctx.height);
161. # [01:26] <Philip`> Oh, also the RDFa errata says "For the avoidance of doubt, [that XMLLiteral stuff I quoted earlier] means in part that the current default namespace of each descendant element MUST also be included in the emitted XML literal."
162. # [01:26] <drunknbass_work> which is wrong
163. # [01:26] <Philip`> which does not avoid my doubt
164. # [01:27] <drunknbass_work> do i wrap that inside of a {}?
165. # [01:27] <Philip`> (What if the descendant elements don't use the default namespace at all?)
166. # [01:28] <Philip`> drunknbass_work: What is wrong with that code?
167. # [01:28] <drunknbass_work> Result of expression 'this.ctx.clearRect' [undefined] is not a function.
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169. # [01:29] <drunknbass_work> scope issue :/
170. # [01:29] <drunknbass_work> and my js skills are very shitty
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172. # [01:30] <Philip`> Sounds like this.ctx might not be a canvas context object
173. # [01:30] <Philip`> Looks like this.ctx is a canvas object, not a canvas context object
174. # [01:31] <Philip`> You probably want to use this.context2D.clearRect instead, and probably want to rename this.ctx to this.canvas
175. # [01:31] <drunknbass_work> it is
176. # [01:32] <Philip`> (clearRect is a 2D function, so you have to call it on the 2D canvas context)
177. # [01:32] <drunknbass_work> oh heh
178. # [01:32] <drunknbass_work> sorry
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180. # [01:33] <drunknbass_work> so my code was ok i just had a typo
181. # [01:33] <drunknbass_work> lol
182. # [01:35] <Philip`> Yes, your code was okay except for the part that was not okay :-p
183. # [01:40] <drunknbass_work> yea i got it working
184. # [01:40] <drunknbass_work> hopefully im not wasting my time creating a nice ui framework for canvas
185. # [01:41] <drunknbass_work> that cake looked kinda cool but using it still required a shit load of code
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187. # [01:51] <othermaciej> I'm totally confused about the RDFa argument, about specifying in terms of DOM vs in terms of concrete textual syntax
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189. # [01:51] <othermaciej> because it seems like RDFa already defines its processing model in terms of DOM traversal
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191. # [01:52] <othermaciej> but two of the co-authors of the spec argue that it's actually defined in terms of source text, and that the syntax definition is sufficient for DOM-based implementations
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193. # [01:57] <Philip`> othermaciej: You're not alone
194. # [01:58] <othermaciej> Philip`: it even very explicitly says in multiple places that it's defining things in terms of the DOM
195. # [01:58] <Hixie> the whole discussion will become moot when they fix http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7670 :-)
196. # [01:59] <hober> Hixie: I wish
197. # [02:04] <Philip`> othermaciej: The RDFa+HTML draft says that, and says RDFa is defined in some abstract tree model
198. # [02:04] <Philip`> but the RDFa spec itself doesn't claim any such thing, if I remember correctly
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200. # [02:05] <othermaciej> Philip`: it does say that, look at the intro to section 5
201. # [02:06] <othermaciej> "Processing need not follow the DOM traversal technique outlined here, although the effect of following some other manner of processing must be the same as if the processing outlined here were followed. The processing model is explained using the idea of DOM traversal which makes it easier to describe (particularly in relation to the [evaluation context])."
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203. # [02:06] <othermaciej> and then it uses DOM concepts (like document object, child element, etc) all over, and even mentions the DOM explicitly a few more times
204. # [02:06] <othermaciej> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#s_model
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206. # [02:08] <Philip`> othermaciej: Ah, I just read your email that quoted those bits
207. # [02:08] * Philip` 's memory is clearly not great
208. # [02:08] <Philip`> Unfortunately I often forget that my memory is not great :-(
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398. # [07:35] <heycam> "I think the frustration level in this thread is rising to the point that we're not going to be able to make good progress if it continues much longer"
399. # [07:35] <heycam> i thought the thread was getting right down to the issue with recent mails
400. # [07:35] <heycam> very concrete
401. # [07:37] <othermaciej> I agree
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403. # [07:37] <othermaciej> although I also think Manu's proposed actions are reasonable in light of the direction of the thread
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426. # [09:25] <annevk2> sicking, pong...
427. # [09:26] <annevk2> hmm, for some reason my comments on rubys blog still need to be moderated
428. # [09:26] * annevk2 wonders what's up with that
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432. # [09:36] <Lachy> annevk2, rubys told me recently there was no moderation queue when I asked him why one of my comments never showed up there.
433. # [09:39] <annevk2> weird
434. # [09:39] <annevk2> my comment isn't that important anyway
435. # [09:40] <annevk2> I was just wondering whether he was actually trying to flame HTML5 rather than the technique because it certainly seemed that way
436. # [09:41] <Philip`> Which technique is that?
437. # [09:43] <Lachy> oh no. Why is google chrome adopting the X-UA-Compatible nonsense?!
438. # [09:44] <Lachy> oh, that's for google frame meant for use in IE http://blog.chromium.org/2009/09/introducing-google-chrome-frame.html
439. # [09:44] <annevk2> Philip`, the <meta> hack to enable the Google plug-in
440. # [09:45] <Philip`> annevk2: I thought his point when linking to HTML5 was primarily that Google's example said "equiv" instead of "http-equiv"
441. # [09:45] <Philip`> so I'm not sure how that's interpreted as an attempt at flaming HTML5
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444. # [09:47] <Philip`> and then Google incorrected their post again and then corrected again, but of course now thousands of people will blindly copy-and-paste the bogus markup from rubys's blog
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446. # [09:49] <annevk2> Philip`, most because of the comment
447. # [09:50] <annevk2> mostly*
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449. # [09:51] <annevk2> but I guess I missed something
450. # [09:51] * annevk2 -> inbox
451. # [09:53] <Lachy> I don't get how Google intend to get that plugin widely distributed among IE users. I don't understand why any user would choose to install the plugin, rather than switching to a better browser?
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453. # [09:55] <Philip`> Lachy: A user can install the plugin and Google's sites will suddenly become faster, without affecting compatibility with the rest of the web, and without requiring the user to switch between two browsers or even comprehend the concept of multiple browsers
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467. # [10:42] <Micheil> hmm.. morning all
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474. # [10:48] <hsivonen> Lachy: I don't understand the software installation policies at companies that insist on sticking to IE to see how that's supposed to work
475. # [10:49] <Micheil> I don't have a problem with IE, as long as it's the latest version.
476. # [10:50] <hsivonen> surely users who are permitted and willing to install new Web client software have already switched browsers
477. # [10:51] <Lachy> there are many users who don't understand why IE is such a bad choice, and haven't experienced a browser with a better UI
478. # [10:52] <hsivonen> or has Google deemed the IE UI to have such staying power that there are people who are willing to install software but not switch the whole browser?
479. # [10:53] <hsivonen> is there some fundamental psychological difference to installing a plug-in that swaps out app internal and installing an app?
480. # [10:53] <Philip`> There's also some people who actually *like* IE
481. # [10:53] <Philip`> and have used other browsers and switched back to IE
482. # [10:53] <hsivonen> to me, they seem like pretty similar things from corporate IT policy POV
483. # [10:53] <Lachy> there are certainly people who are more comfortable with the IE UI for some reason and have difficulty switching. It's why there was so much effort put in in the early days of Firefox to create an IE theme for it to make it look as close as possible
484. # [10:53] * hsivonen has no data on teh popularity of the IE theme
485. # [10:55] <Lachy> I don't know how popular it is these days. But when I was involved with SpreadFirefox years ago, there were quite a significant number of peoploe who managed to use it as a way to get users to switch
486. # [10:55] <Philip`> It seems that switching browser (in a company with intranets and stuff) is a short-term compatibility nightmare, whereas installing plugins that switch the internals only a per-site opt-in basis is merely a long-term compatibility nightmare
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488. # [10:57] <hsivonen> the IE UI annoys me. particularly because ctrl-L doesn't do what I expect
489. # [10:58] <Philip`> Alt-D works fine for that, I think
490. # [10:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: but Alt-D is wrong and ctrl-L is right :-)
491. # [10:59] <Philip`> but I always use alt-D + Tab to go to the search box, and IE sticks a refresh button in the tab order between those two, so I always start typing my search query into the refresh button
492. # [10:59] <Philip`> s/IE/IE8/
493. # [10:59] <Philip`> (unless it was IE7?)
494. # [11:00] <Philip`> hsivonen: Opera supports both, so I think I just use whichever one is closest to whichever hand is closest to the keyboard
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497. # [11:16] <annevk2> the Offline Web Application section is nearly impossible to get through; geez
498. # [11:18] <Hixie> how so?
499. # [11:18] <annevk2> the algorithms are really hard to follow through
500. # [11:21] * jgraham assumes that the only use case for the Google thing is intranets that have IE-only webapps but where they don't want to deal with multiple browsers
501. # [11:21] <jgraham> Because it would be confusing for users if some pages required one browser snd some required a different browser
502. # [11:22] <jgraham> However there was a Gecko plugin that did the same thing many years ago and it never caught on so I don't forsee this being a huge sucess
503. # [11:22] <jgraham> Mind you, Google will likely market it better
504. # [11:22] <Hixie> annevk2: ah, yeah, it's pretty complicated
505. # [11:24] <annevk2> Hixie, so why does fallback take precedence over online whitelist?
506. # [11:24] <Hixie> otherwise fallback would be useless for anything in the online whitelist
507. # [11:25] <Hixie> effectively fallback is the same as online whitelist, just with a fallback instead of falling back to network error
508. # [11:25] <Hixie> iirc
509. # [11:25] <annevk2> Hixie, e.g. consider FALLBACK: / /fallback.html NETWORK: /fetchme
510. # [11:25] <Hixie> the NETWORK: /fetchme bit is pretty redundant in that iirc
511. # [11:25] <annevk2> not if you want to get the network error
512. # [11:26] <Hixie> also since you can wildcard the online whitelist, fallback has to come first
513. # [11:26] <annevk2> afaict in "Changes to the networking model" a fetch is down for /fetchme but when it fails in some way you get /fallback.html instead
514. # [11:26] <Hixie> right
515. # [11:26] <Hixie> if you need to catch that case, just have a specific fallback you look for instead
516. # [11:26] <annevk2> well the wildcard could be special cased
517. # [11:27] <Hixie> FALLBACK: /fetchme /error.txt
518. # [11:27] <Hixie> or just FALLBACK: /fetchme /fetchme?error
519. # [11:27] <annevk2> it would prefer specific fallback over generic ones?
520. # [11:27] <Hixie> it prefers the longest matching namespace iirc
521. # [11:28] <annevk2> doesn't say so in changes to the networking model
522. # [11:28] <annevk2> only talks about "if there's a prefix match"
523. # [11:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think it's interesting that the docs don't advertise a setting that'd turn the Chrome Frame on for all of Web zone while keeping the inner zones as IE
524. # [11:28] <Hixie> annevk2: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#matching-a-fallback-namespace
525. # [11:29] <annevk2> but that isn't referenced
526. # [11:29] <Hixie> good point
527. # [11:29] <Hixie> file a bug?
528. # [11:29] <Hixie> it should reference it
529. # [11:30] * hsivonen wonders what kind of API Chrome Tab uses to hook into X-UA-Compatible
530. # [11:30] <hsivonen> s/Tab/Frame/
531. # [11:30] * hsivonen confuses IE Tab and Chrome Frame
532. # [11:31] <annevk2> Hixie, why would you keep older application caches around btw?
533. # [11:31] <Hixie> if you have multiple tabs open
534. # [11:31] <Hixie> they might all be using different versions
535. # [11:31] <annevk2> Hixie, ok, so only for open tabs
536. # [11:31] <Hixie> yeah
537. # [11:31] <annevk2> Hixie, what if you remove an older version in one of the tabs
538. # [11:32] <annevk2> (the user can supposedly do that through UI)
539. # [11:33] <Hixie> i guess the tab switches back to not having a cache
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541. # [11:36] <annevk2> Hixie, so what is the point of NETWORK actually if you can simulate it with FALLBACK?
542. # [11:38] <Hixie> dunno, good point. hadn't really thought of it that way until just now.
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547. # [11:42] <annevk2> i'll post to the WHATWG list
548. # [11:42] <Hixie> k thanks
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553. # [11:59] <yatil> Hi folks, I was just asked (in German) why there is no <rb> in HTML5, I guess that it is implicit as everything which is not <rt> or <rp> inside a <ruby> element has to be <rb>. Right?
554. # [11:59] <Hixie> right
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557. # [12:00] <yatil> Thank you!
558. # [12:02] <Philip`> jgraham: Google will market it by doing http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Zs8MDWN106k/SrkGvMrT3LI/AAAAAAAAEQc/4zIh9XlFmH4/s400/cf-in-ie.PNG
559. # [12:03] <mookid> can someone please explain what escalate
560. # [12:03] <mookid> this to the chairs
561. # [12:03] <mookid> means
562. # [12:04] <mookid> will the chairs exert their wrath upon me if my escalation displeases them?
563. # [12:04] <mookid> I am quite happy to argue with them about this too
564. # [12:04] <mookid> it seems that I even disagree with TBL
565. # [12:04] <mookid> which is pretty hillarious
566. # [12:05] <Hixie> othermaciej: ^
567. # [12:05] <othermaciej> mookid: do you have a specific issue you would like to escalate?
568. # [12:06] <othermaciej> or are you just asking in general?
569. # [12:06] <mookid> Ian's interpretation of the HTTP spec
570. # [12:06] <mookid> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7697
571. # [12:06] <mookid> and the interpretation of the proposal
572. # [12:07] <mookid> 'proposal'
573. # [12:07] <mookid> :)
574. # [12:07] <othermaciej> so you have a feature proposal
575. # [12:07] <othermaciej> if you would like to escalate it so the whole Working Group considers it, you can ask for an issue to be made in the tracker
576. # [12:07] <othermaciej> however
577. # [12:08] <othermaciej> a) please don't do this unless you think there is a reasonable chance other people will agree with you - it consumes the whole Working Group's time to escalate an issue
578. # [12:08] <othermaciej> b) if no one makes a concrete proposal for an alternate design in a timely manner, the chairs may summarily close the issue
579. # [12:09] <othermaciej> one thing you may want to do is raise the idea on the public-html mailing list to see if anyone else is interested
580. # [12:09] <mookid> the proposal is very simple - to alter the signifance of type attributes on link elements
581. # [12:09] <mookid> so it is more specific in the HTML5 spec
582. # [12:09] <othermaciej> if there isn't significant interest from others, then I would advise you not to escalate since it will just waste people's time
583. # [12:10] <mookid> do you not fear tyranny of the majority?
584. # [12:10] <othermaciej> I expect browsers are unlikely to implement a behavior for the type attribute that breaks backwards compat
585. # [12:10] <mookid> everyone used to think the world was flat.
586. # [12:11] <othermaciej> I did not say you should have majority support to escalate
587. # [12:11] <othermaciej> just some nontrivial interest from at least one person besides you
588. # [12:11] <othermaciej> because if only one person wants the change, then it is going to fail
589. # [12:12] <mookid> hmm
590. # [12:12] <othermaciej> because the Chairs are required to declare Working Group decisions based on consensus (not necessarily unanimity, but at least rough consensus), or failing that by majority vote of the group
591. # [12:12] <othermaciej> but escalating to an issue costs both the Chairs and the Working Group time, so I advise you not to do it unless you can show at least some support for your position
592. # [12:13] <mookid> fair enough
593. # [12:14] <mookid> can we add a footnote into the spec that I thought that bit was wrong?
594. # [12:14] * Micheil is now known as Micheil_away
595. # [12:14] <mookid> just so in 200 years time when they try to work out what went wrong
596. # [12:14] <mookid> I can get some credit
597. # [12:14] <othermaciej> you're welcome to publish your own document saying you think that part is wrong
598. # [12:15] <mookid> can I do doctored pictures of wg members?
599. # [12:15] <othermaciej> why would you do that?
600. # [12:15] <mookid> jazz up the documentation
601. # [12:16] <mookid> it's so boring
602. # [12:16] <mookid> you should have themes for each page
603. # [12:16] <othermaciej> there's certainly no working group rule regarding such things, but of course considerations of common courtesy and good taste still apply
604. # [12:16] <da3d> Add cat pictures, that always works
605. # [12:16] <mookid> yeah ok I'll look into it
606. # [12:17] <mookid> god damn
607. # [12:17] <mookid> the world isn't flat.
608. # [12:17] <mookid> you people.
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612. # [12:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: does Wave not work in Opera?
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615. # [12:27] <zcorpan> what's the origin of a document.written document?
616. # [12:29] * Parts: kristallpirat (n=kristall@c-base/crew/kristall) ("ist raus!")
617. # [12:32] <Lachy> zcorpan, isn't it the same as the origin of the script that wrote it?
618. # [12:32] <Hixie> zcorpan: it's the origin it had before document.write() was called on it
619. # [12:33] <Hixie> document.write() doesn't change the origin of a document
620. # [12:33] <Hixie> document.open() might, i forget
621. # [12:33] <Hixie> and d.write() calls d.open()
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624. # [12:37] <zcorpan> "Change the document's address to the first script's browsing context's active document's address."
625. # [12:37] <zcorpan> not sure what that means
626. # [12:38] <zcorpan> ok, here's a more direct question: why doesn't web workers work in the live dom viewer in firefox or chrome?
627. # [12:39] <zcorpan> ah
628. # [12:39] <zcorpan> now i get it
629. # [12:39] <zcorpan> new Worker('?') points to the live dom viewer page
630. # [12:39] <zcorpan> not the document.written page
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632. # [13:17] <Philip`> hsivonen: They probably never even bothered testing in Opera
633. # [13:22] * Philip` likes how http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2009/09/google-wave-in-internet-explorer.html says "HTML5 support is still far behind" which links to http://www.browserscope.org/?category=acid3
634. # [13:22] <Philip`> given that Acid3 doesn't actually test any of HTML5
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639. # [13:56] <Philip`> Maybe RDFa really should have been defined in two documents, a generic RDFa Concepts one and an RDFa in XHTML Syntax one
640. # [13:57] <Philip`> Currently those two parts seem to be confused and mixed together
641. # [13:57] <Dashiva> At this point I'm tempted to say "or maybe zero documents"
642. # [13:57] <Philip`> which causes problems when trying to write an RDFa in HTML Syntax one
643. # [13:57] <Philip`> Dashiva: Well, that too
644. # [13:59] <Dashiva> Every post seems to echo the same sentiment: "It doesn't matter, the implementations will magically do the right thing without the spec having to state what it is"
645. # [13:59] <Dashiva> So if magic is making it work, why have a spec at all?
646. # [14:08] * Dashiva wonders if it's sometimes preferable to attribute to malice rather than ignorance to avoid making people look stupid
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648. # [14:10] <Hixie> http://damowmow.com/playground/htmlwg/chart.html
649. # [14:12] <annevk2> you're supposed to be asleep :)
650. # [14:12] <annevk2> graph seems to be heading in the right direction though
651. # [14:13] <Dashiva> Big red box
652. # [14:13] <Dashiva> Go lack of canvas text support!
653. # [14:13] * Parts: cmrn (n=cmrn@unaffiliated/cmrn) ("Leaving...")
654. # [14:19] <Philip`> The automatic horizontal resizing of text to fit the maximum width looks disgusting
655. # [14:19] <Philip`> (in Firefox 3.5)
656. # [14:20] <Philip`> Also, I can't see the "closed" colour unless I move my head downwards by six inches
657. # [14:22] <Hixie> you've said that before about #EEEEEE
658. # [14:22] <Hixie> you need a better monitor
659. # [14:23] <jgraham> So someone needs to start doing some reviewing
660. # [14:23] <Philip`> I have a better monitor than I had a month ago
661. # [14:23] <Dashiva> Maybe you have a good monitor but at the wrong angle
662. # [14:24] <Philip`> except now it's glossy, so I can't look at it straight on because I'll see my face and get distracted, so I have to look downwards at a bit of an angle
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664. # [14:30] <da3d> Glossy monitors are broken by design.
665. # [14:31] <Lachy> da3d, glossy monitors with good anti-reflective coating on them aren't that bad
666. # [14:32] <hsivonen> glossy and anti-reflective seem mutually exclusive
667. # [14:32] <hsivonen> glossy monitors are evil
668. # [14:34] <Lachy> not entirely. You would get the glass cover over the LCD, like on the new MacBooks with glossy display, but that glass can be coated with anti-reflective coating so it looks glossy without reflecting everything
669. # [14:34] * Philip` doesn't like it, but the computer was pretty cheap so he can't expect it to be great
670. # [14:35] * hsivonen hasn't inspected the latest MacBooks
671. # [14:36] <hsivonen> but the screen on the MacBooks that were current in Q2 of 2008 sucks
672. # [14:36] <hsivonen> I run mine lid closed except when traveling, so it's not a huge problem
673. # [14:37] <hsivonen> also, the LED Cinema Display sucks
674. # [14:37] <Lachy> I have an iMac with a glossy display, and the screen on that really isn't bad at all
675. # [14:38] <da3d> The only glossy screen I have is on my phone, but I can tolerate it only because it's full of OLED awesomeness.
676. # [14:38] <yatil> I like my macbook pro glossy screen… what exactly has that to do with HTML?
677. # [14:38] <yatil> ;)
678. # [14:39] <beowulf> you cannot see the HTML without the glossy monitor
679. # [14:39] <hsivonen> beowulf: ITYM "with"
680. # [14:40] <Philip`> It's more like you cannot see the HTML issues graph with a glossy monitor which prevents you from looking straight on and therefore causes colour distortion
681. # [14:40] <Philip`> Maybe HTML should make glossy monitors non-conforming
682. # [14:40] <beowulf> i can't see the issues graph because of my browser, my ips panel rocks though
683. # [14:40] <Philip`> s/HTML/HTML5/
684. # [14:41] <hsivonen> http://www.hrd.qut.edu.au/healthsafety/worksafely/highGloss.jsp
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688. # [14:48] <Hixie> i kinda like my chart
689. # [14:49] <Hixie> it'll update daily
690. # [14:49] <Lachy> Philip`, we should make "Best Viewed with a Matte Display" buttons :-)
691. # [14:54] * gsnedders hates his glossy MBP
692. # [14:54] <gsnedders> (and this is before they got really bad)
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698. # [15:05] <Philip`> Just so I don't forget this link: "The BBC is publishing RDFa in the form of program reviews" is for the music reviews linked from http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/reviews/ (not TV programme reviews)
699. # [15:08] <jgraham> Philip`: Looks like the licensing information isn't RFDa
700. # [15:08] <Philip`> s/TV programme reviews/TV programme listings/
701. # [15:08] <zcorpan> heycam: yt?
702. # [15:09] <Philip`> jgraham: I don't think RDFa has a requirement saying "You MUST use RDFa for absolutely all metadata on your page"
703. # [15:09] <Philip`> jgraham: Seems they're just using RDFa that has an actual effect, i.e. Google's RDFa-ish review markup
704. # [15:09] <zcorpan> heycam: "Need to test how implementations actually behave when passed too few or too many arguments." - i'd like this to be resolved, so i know how to write a test for new Worker()
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710. # [15:20] <Philip`> Oh no, HTML5 removed its X3D support :-(
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714. # [15:27] * Parts: Micheil_away (n=Micheil@124-170-141-248.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("Any inconviences that may occur are purely coincidential, and we applaud them.")
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720. # [15:37] * Philip` tries to work out how to set IE8 to use Google in its search box
721. # [15:38] <Philip`> Seems I have to do "Find more providers...", and then select the "Search" category (from a list of about two dozen), and then look right at the bottom of the second page of results
722. # [15:41] <TabAtkins> Hm, really? Mine set itself up with google right from the start.
723. # [15:42] <Philip`> Mine defaulted to Bing
724. # [15:42] <Philip`> and I missed the usual startup provider-selection thing since I had to reboot to get the network working
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738. # [16:34] <TabAtkins> Hmm. I fear that using <dt>/<dd> in <details> will cause people to think that <dl> stands for "details list".
739. # [16:35] <TabAtkins> And then be disappointed when it *doesn't* produce an accordion.
740. # [16:35] <jgraham> I fear the axiomatic proof
741. # [16:36] <TabAtkins> haha
742. # [16:36] <TabAtkins> Who was it that published that? It's been so long.
743. # [16:36] * TabAtkins goes to look it up on Hixie's blog.
744. # [16:39] <TabAtkins> Hehehe, I forgot how awesome the Proof is.
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751. # [17:02] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, link?
752. # [17:03] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hixie+axiomatic+proof
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755. # [17:04] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, that was before my time
756. # [17:04] <TabAtkins> Before mine too. I found it originally while trawling Hixie's blog.
757. # [17:04] <Philip`> erlehmann: Time is rendered irrelevant by archives
758. # [17:05] <Philip`> Well, half of time, anyway
759. # [17:05] <erlehmann> Philip`, lets not get existential in here. I am not intimidated by a bunch of characters !!
760. # [17:05] <erlehmann> btw: ASCII portal is out \e/
761. # [17:06] <TabAtkins> i know!
762. # [17:06] <TabAtkins> woo!
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766. # [17:12] <TabAtkins> Yay, birthday weekend will be scottish-themed this year.
767. # [17:13] <TabAtkins> (at the Renaissance festival this year, which my birthday always falls during)
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770. # [17:19] <TabAtkins> Hm, the file|save/open thing for apps seems to make sense.
771. # [17:22] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
772. # [17:22] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, so the axiomatic proof says that a spec that makes violations of another spec possible is unpossible ?
773. # [17:23] <TabAtkins> Not quite. As best as I can understand, it's saying that any changes to the specification that aren't specifically allowed change the semantics of the specification.
774. # [17:24] <TabAtkins> Specifically, CSS and XBL apparently change the semantics of HTML.
775. # [17:24] <erlehmann> CSS changes semantics ?
776. # [17:25] <erlehmann> well, i can't argue against that. axiomatic proof is axiomatic, at last. ;D
777. # [17:25] <Lachy> erlehmann, yes. Didn't you read the *axiomatic proof*?
778. # [17:25] <TabAtkins> According to the Axiomatic Proof.
779. # [17:25] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
780. # [17:26] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
781. # [17:26] <hsivonen> did Axiomatic Proof show up on a mailing list again?
782. # [17:27] * Quits: Rik|work (n=Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net)
783. # [17:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: Sadly not
784. # [17:27] <beowulf> I feel the urge to watch Wall·E
785. # [17:27] <TabAtkins> No, jgraham mentioned it.
786. # [17:27] * Joins: Rik|work (n=Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net)
787. # [17:27] <TabAtkins> beowulf: give in. It's a good urge.
788. # [17:28] <beowulf> All your axiomatic proofs will be catered for on the Axiom
789. # [17:29] <TabAtkins> Man, I'm gonna have to go manually implement dirtying for my inputs. Stupid bug reports asking for stupid delayed validation until the stupid second input in the pair is filled in.
790. # [17:29] * TabAtkins goes to request a :dirty pseudoclass.
791. # [17:30] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
792. # [17:34] <erlehmann> beowulf, cluster !!
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795. # [17:36] <Philip`> "Before I dwelve into XAML's superior model and eventual (defacto) conquest, let me preemptively squelch XUL rebuttals." - 'dwelve' is a cool word, even if it doesn't exist
796. # [17:36] <Philip`> (Also, does anyone actually use XAML for anything?)
797. # [17:37] <Philip`> (Ah, apparently it's used for Silverlight and stuff)
798. # [17:37] <beowulf> hsivonen's html5 presentation told me XAML was in Silverlight
799. # [17:38] <beowulf> see? always learning. always.
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804. # [17:52] <hsivonen> Avalon, XAML, WPF-E, Silverlight
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831. # [19:09] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
832. # [19:11] <JonathanNeal> What would be a clever classname for the first h1 element within a section/article/aside
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834. # [19:13] <Rik|work> h1:first-child ?
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837. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> h1:first-of-type, actually.
838. # [19:17] <Rik|work> yeah right :)
839. # [19:17] * TabAtkins is sad that there isn't a more general :first-of pseudoclass.
840. # [19:17] <JonathanNeal> Well, ie6 won't accept first-child type selectors.
841. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> I wanna select the first thing with a particular class, frex.
842. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> Then .first-of-type
843. # [19:18] <zcorpan> * html { display:none }
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845. # [19:18] <zcorpan> problem solved
846. # [19:18] <Rik|work> TabAtkins: :first-of(selector) like :not ?
847. # [19:18] <TabAtkins> Rik|work: yeah
848. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> But :first-of() sounds kinda weird. Better to be just :first() or something. :first(h1).
849. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> :first(h1) would be equivalent to h1:first-of-type, that is.
850. # [19:20] <TabAtkins> Also: "first" has officially become not a word at this point. >_<
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852. # [19:21] <JonathanNeal> Well, I'm just trying to label the elements that will shot up in outliner.
853. # [19:22] <JonathanNeal> show
854. # [19:22] <JonathanNeal> I was calling them .section-title but I thought it could be better.
855. # [19:23] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12) (Remote closed the connection)
856. # [19:23] <TabAtkins> .outlinee
857. # [19:23] <TabAtkins> since they're significant to the outlin*er*
858. # [19:30] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
859. # [19:32] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
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863. # [19:40] <hsivonen> 60 seconds to learn prefixes is a rather Panglossian on xmlns
864. # [19:40] <hsivonen> s/on/view on/
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874. # [20:36] <Philip`> Does anything say that documents must not have parse errors?
875. # [20:37] * Philip` can't find any such thing
876. # [20:37] <Philip`> (I was looking at "Any byte or sequences of bytes in the original byte stream that is misinterpreted for compatibility is a parse error" but don't see where that translates into a requirement on documents)
877. # [20:38] <gsnedders> In XML?
878. # [20:38] <gsnedders> Oh, in HTML 5 that must be
879. # [20:39] * gsnedders thought you were referring to my few-minutes-ago-post
880. # [20:39] <Philip`> I don't care about XML
881. # [20:39] <gsnedders> Sensible.
882. # [20:39] <Philip`> except when I can break it
883. # [20:40] <Philip`> Actually I don't really care about anything except when I can break it
884. # [20:40] <Philip`> Breaking things is fun
885. # [20:40] <gsnedders> Do you like music?
886. # [20:40] <Philip`> Not unless I can break it
887. # [20:40] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
888. # [20:45] <zcorpan> Philip`: #writing has the requirement for documents
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900. # [21:21] * masinter argues to TAG that we schedule joint IRC sessions
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902. # [21:28] <Steve^> how do you shut people like me up during them?
903. # [21:28] <masinter> certainly wouldn't want you to shut up... what's the point of that?
904. # [21:29] <Steve^> you would want to keep some agenda and keep people on track
905. # [21:29] <Steve^> I suppose the chair could kick people who didn't calm down when asked to
906. # [21:30] <masinter> i'm scribing the tag meeting right now in another window will answer later
907. # [21:38] <masinter> IRC needs less moderation than phone or F2F meetings, since random chatter can be ignored. and if people aren't calm, well, we're asking the questions wrong
908. # [21:40] <Philip`> Or the people are just trolls
909. # [21:44] <JonathanNeal> Bummer. The http://html5.validator.nu/ validator not like <meta content="chrome=1" http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" />
910. # [21:45] <JonathanNeal> (does not like)
911. # [21:45] * masinter wonders if anyone looked at the media feature RFCs before doing X-UA-compatible
912. # [21:46] <masinter> or was it NIH?
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915. # [21:49] <Philip`> masinter: Seems like unneeded complexity, when the goal was simply to have an IE-specific flag that could be set via either HTTP headers or a tag in the HTML document
916. # [21:50] <masinter> what's the namespace in which 'chrome' is a name?
917. # [21:51] <Philip`> The global namespace
918. # [21:51] <masinter> seems like it means spinning up another registry, which is unnecessary overhead, requires some organization to maintain it
919. # [21:51] <Philip`> Why would it need a registry?
920. # [21:52] <masinter> how do i find out what 'chrome' means?
921. # [21:52] <Philip`> You search the internet for a web browser called "Chrome"
922. # [21:52] <hsivonen> masinter: you read a blog post on google's site
923. # [21:52] <zcorpan> http://www.google.com/search?q=chrome+x-ua-compatible
924. # [21:52] * Quits: jianli (n=jianli@74.125.59.73) (Connection timed out)
925. # [21:53] <Philip`> The feature is only useful for UAs with significant market share, because otherwise no author is ever going to bother setting the flag for that UA
926. # [21:53] <Philip`> so there won't be many and there won't be accidental collisions
927. # [21:54] <hsivonen> one can erly o trademarks to avoid collisions
928. # [21:54] <hsivonen> *rely
929. # [21:54] <Philip`> *on
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931. # [21:55] <zcorpan> chrome could have used any other indicator to flip the switch
932. # [21:55] * Philip` notes that people have trouble even getting the x-ua-compatible syntax right, so he wouldn't like it to be any more powerful or flexible
933. # [21:55] <zcorpan> but probably chose the x-ua-compatible meta because people are already familiar with it for switching ie engines
934. # [21:56] <Philip`> I suppose this means Chrome is never going to implement x-ua-compatible itself
935. # [21:56] <Philip`> otherwise a load of sites would be unintentionally causing themselves to render in Chrome's v1 compatibility mode
936. # [21:56] * Quits: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@p5B01397F.dip.t-dialin.net) ("?Q")
937. # [21:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it could also be seens as an elaborate practical joke on IE engine switching
938. # [21:57] <hsivonen> *seen
939. # [21:57] * hsivonen blames text input method
940. # [21:58] <JonathanNeal> Well, I got back to work on the Liferay website Monday and I've got the mockup of our homepage done @ http://madison.thewikies.com/liferay/wireframe/ --- outlines nicely
941. # [21:58] <masinter> ((will discuss later must go back))
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976. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> Hixie, is it too late for the Google TPAC sponsorship? fantasai just convinced me that I can afford it.
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979. # [23:25] <gsnedders> That little bully!
980. # [23:25] <gsnedders> (I say in jest.)
981. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> Man, for serious.
982. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> ^_^
983. # [23:26] <gsnedders> I can't be too mean to her (or Hixie, for that matter), as she did pay for dinner for me one time last TPAC.
984. # [23:26] <gsnedders> Ah, the benefits of being unemployed :P
985. # [23:26] * Joins: fishd_ (n=darin@nat/google/x-vgihnlvbpjttnsze)
986. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> "benefits"
987. # [23:28] <tantek> gsnedders, will you be at the upcoming TPAC?
988. # [23:28] <gsnedders> tantek: no
989. # [23:28] * Quits: kristallpirat (n=kristall@c-base/crew/kristall) ("Wünsche weiterhin guten Flug")
990. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> tantek: you're on the short list of people fantasai told me to beg for housing over tpac
991. # [23:30] <tantek> TabAtkins - I myself may be doing some housing begging - I'm in SF which is over an hour of driving each way away from the TPAC.
992. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> k. you weren't the first person on my list, but you were the closest to hand.
993. # [23:31] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@65.190.139.141)
994. # [23:32] <tantek> btw, for anyone in SF, we're having a microformats dinner meetup/drinkup tonight: http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/4521748/
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996. # [23:38] <Hixie> TabAtkins: e-mail me
997. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> Will do.
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1002. # [23:53] <Lachy> tantek, TabAtkins, I'm also looking for cheap or free accommodation for TPAC
1003. # [23:53] <Lachy> one alternative is to share a room at the hotel, which effectively cuts the price in half for each
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1005. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> I probably can't even do half, though.
1006. # [23:57] <Lachy> staying at the Santa Clara Mariott is about $192 (incl. taxes), or roughly $96 each, per night. I know that seems a little much.
1007. # [23:57] <Lachy> but there's a place that I believe is across the road, according to google maps, that is half that price.
1008. # [23:57] * gsnedders shared a room last year for 142 EUR for the entire week
1009. # [23:57] <Lachy> gsnedders, you shared with Ben, didn't you?
1010. # [23:58] <gsnedders> Lachy: No, Shawn
1011. # [23:58] <Lachy> oh
1012. # [23:58] <gsnedders> (We were originally going to share one room between three, but the hotel didn't have any rooms free to do that… so we got two rooms for the same price)
1013. # [23:58] <Lachy> Shawn who? What's his last name?
1014. # [23:59] <gsnedders> smedero
1015. # [23:59] <gsnedders> Medero
1016. # [23:59] <Lachy> oh, right
1017. # [23:59] <Lachy> for some reason, I don't remember meeting him. But I must have.
1018. # Session Close: Thu Sep 24 00:00:00 2009

The end :)