/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-09-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 25 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  15. # [00:24] <zcorpan> - <dd>Uses <code><a href=#htmlelement>HTMLElement</a></code>.</dd>
  16. # [00:24] <zcorpan> + <dd>Use <code><a href=#htmlelement>HTMLElement</a></code>.</dd>
  17. # [00:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^ mistake?
  18. # [00:25] <Hixie> no
  19. # [00:25] <Hixie> :-)
  20. # [00:26] <zcorpan> ah
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  23. # [00:35] <Lachy> is there anyone from webkit here who can explain why Element.webkitMatchesSelctor() doesn't work in the latest nightly? https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=29703 - The bug says it landed in r48723, and I have r48730 installed
  24. # [00:36] <Lachy> weinig, ^
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  26. # [00:36] <weinig> Lachy: hm, not sure
  27. # [00:37] <weinig> tries it out
  28. # [00:40] <weinig> Lachy: it seems to be working for me in the latest nightly
  29. # [00:40] * weinig will upload a test case
  30. # [00:42] <weinig> Lachy: what score do you get on https://bug-29703-attachments.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=40087 ?
  31. # [00:42] <weinig> JohnResig: are you around?
  32. # [00:42] <Lachy> 99.2%: 2406 passed, 20 failed
  33. # [00:42] <weinig> ok, then that is it working
  34. # [00:42] <Lachy> it's failing the webkitMatchesSelector tests
  35. # [00:43] <weinig> all of them?
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  38. # [00:43] <Lachy> yes, all 4 of them
  39. # [00:44] <weinig> that test has a lot more than 4
  40. # [00:44] <weinig> we are failing the "no value" ones
  41. # [00:44] <Lachy> ok, then it must be passing the rest.
  42. # [00:44] <weinig> yes
  43. # [00:44] <Lachy> that's weird. Not working for me in the live dom viewer
  44. # [00:45] <weinig> Lachy: odd
  45. # [00:46] <Lachy> ah, nevermind. I made a stupid error
  46. # [00:47] <Lachy> missed the [0] on the end of getElementsByTagName("p"); so it was trying to do it on the NodeList.
  47. # [00:47] <weinig> :)
  48. # [00:48] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  49. # [00:48] <weinig> Lachy: I used the same rules as querySelector/all with regards to stringifying null/undefined (we do it), throwing on the empty string, and throwing if any of the selectors need namespace resolution
  50. # [00:48] <zcorpan> Hixie: is it intended that WorkerGlobalScope's onerror's function is invoked with three arguments (which the spec says, afaict), rather than firing an ErrorEvent at the WorkerGlobalScope (which is what firefox does)?
  51. # [00:49] <Hixie> yes
  52. # [00:49] <Hixie> like window.onerror
  53. # [00:49] <weinig> the only thing we fail on JohnResig's test is that we don't throw when you pass no arguments
  54. # [00:49] <weinig> Lachy: we treat that the same as passing undefined
  55. # [00:49] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok
  56. # [00:49] <weinig> not sure if that is a bug or not
  57. # [00:49] <weinig> but it is the same as qs/qsa
  58. # [00:50] <Lachy> I believe it's a bug. I think it should be a WRONG_ARGUMENTS_ERR
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  60. # [00:52] <zcorpan> Lachy: WRONG_ARGUMENTS_ERR is an opera exception; web idl doesn't define yet what should happen with too few arguments i think
  61. # [00:52] <zcorpan> Lachy: html5 used to say to throw NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR but i can't find that anymore
  62. # [00:52] * weinig had another question for heycam
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  64. # [00:54] <Lachy> zcorpan, ok. In any case, the test suite is expecting an exception. Looks like it doesn't check which exception it is. I guess that's why
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  68. # [00:58] <Lachy> weinig, so, is there any special, non-obvious behaviour for matchesSelector that I need to be careful about when speccing it?
  69. # [00:59] <weinig> Lachy: none that I ran into
  70. # [00:59] <Lachy> it does seem fairly trivial to define at first glance, since it can just be defined similarly to qSA
  71. # [00:59] * weinig nods
  72. # [00:59] * Lachy will spec it tomorrow
  73. # [01:00] <weinig> sweet!
  74. # [01:01] <Lachy> after this, I want to prioritise the scoped selector APIs, and handle both the ":scope>p" and the ones with the implied scope like ">em, >strong"
  75. # [01:03] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  76. # [01:04] * zcorpan notes that Hixie has got the order wrong for "in" and "optional" in idl in web workers
  77. # [01:04] <Hixie> wonderful
  78. # [01:05] <Hixie> is it "optional in"?
  79. # [01:05] <zcorpan> in html5, too
  80. # [01:05] <Hixie> or "in optional"?
  81. # [01:05] <zcorpan> "in optional"
  82. # [01:05] <zcorpan> though "in" is optional!
  83. # [01:06] <Hixie> fixed
  84. # [01:06] <zcorpan> cool
  85. # [01:06] <Lachy> does anyone understand how Node.compareDocumentPosition() is supposed to work? DOM 3 Core is very badly defined. It's not at all clear how the return value is calculated
  86. # [01:07] <Lachy> and Firefox's implementation seems to be returning rather strange numbers that don't seem to mean anything obvious
  87. # [01:08] <zcorpan> Lachy: if you figure out how it should work, archive notes so that it can be specced in web dom core
  88. # [01:11] <zcorpan> why is http://html5.org/tools/web-workers-tracker empty?
  89. # [01:11] <Lachy> I wasn't planning on reverse engineering it. Was just curious as it was mentioned on public-webapps as a way to sort nodes in an array
  90. # [01:11] <Lachy> and I never knew the method existed before
  91. # [01:12] <Hixie> zcorpan: i may have broken it when i migrated everything to html5's source document
  92. # [01:12] <Hixie> though i thought i had kept enough of a shim to keep things working
  93. # [01:12] <Hixie> (i still check everything into the workers svn repo, i think)
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  95. # [01:13] <zcorpan> Hixie: oh i thought it was a separate source document
  96. # [01:13] <Hixie> it was
  97. # [01:13] <Hixie> but i merged it in when i was splitting everything out
  98. # [01:13] <Hixie> to make my life easier
  99. # [01:13] <Hixie> but the original source document should still be being generated
  100. # [01:14] <Hixie> so i don't see why it wouldn't still work
  101. # [01:21] <zcorpan> so Worker.onerror can receive two kinds of events: an Event when fetching the worker script fails, and an ErrorEvent when a runtime script error is not handled by the WorkerGlobalScope's onerror
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  105. # [01:31] <zcorpan> r4000 next
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  107. # [01:33] <zcorpan> that'll make mpilgrim happy
  108. # [01:36] <Hixie> study 2 begins!
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  110. # [01:38] <Lachy> Hixie, what does the [Supplemental] extended attribute you're using in the IDL mean? It's not yet defined in webidl, and it seems redundant with the implements statement
  111. # [01:39] <Hixie> interface A { a } [Supplmental] interface B { b } A implements B; means the same as interface A { a b }
  112. # [01:39] <Hixie> whereas
  113. # [01:40] <Hixie> interface A { a } interface B { b } A implements B; results in two interface objects
  114. # [01:40] <Lachy> isn't that what the [NoInterfaceObject] one deals with?
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  116. # [01:41] <Hixie> no NoInterfaceObject only means that the interface object doesn't exist
  117. # [01:41] <Hixie> with interface A { a } [NoInterfaceObject] interface B { b } A implements B; A.b doesn't exist
  118. # [01:45] <zcorpan> Hixie: i thought [Supplemental] was supposed to be used as A { a } [Supplemental] interface A { b }
  119. # [01:45] <Lachy> oh, right. That sort of makes sense, though [Supplements] doesn't really seem intuitive
  120. # [01:46] <Hixie> zcorpan: yeah that is also a way to do it
  121. # [01:46] <Hixie> there are three ways [Supplemental] works
  122. # [01:47] <Hixie> inheritance, the same interface name twice, and 'implements'
  123. # [01:47] <Hixie> depending on exactly what you want
  124. # [01:47] <Lachy> I suppose I should update Selectors API to use [Supplemental] for NodeSelector, and change the old [ImplementedOn] attributes to implements statements
  125. # [01:49] <Lachy> does that mean to define matchesSelector on the Element interface, i can write it like this:
  126. # [01:49] <Lachy> [Supplemental]
  127. # [01:49] <Lachy> Interface Element {
  128. # [01:49] <Lachy> boolean matchesSelector(in DOMString selectors);
  129. # [01:49] <Lachy> };
  130. # [01:51] <Hixie> yeah
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  132. # [01:53] <Lachy> sweet. That means I don't need to make up a silly interface name like ElementMatchesSelector just for this
  133. # [01:53] <Hixie> man, both studies so far indicate 'about' is a terrible property name to use for giving an item an ID
  134. # [01:54] <Lachy> in RDFa?
  135. # [01:54] <zcorpan> oooh, an authoring tool for canvas: http://www.webmonkey.com/blog/Turn_Your_Vector_Art_Into_Canvas-based_Animations_With_Opacity
  136. # [01:55] <Lachy> Isn't that used to reference a element with an IDREF, indicating which element the metadata is describing?
  137. # [01:55] <Hixie> Lachy: in microdata
  138. # [01:55] <Hixie> it's used to give the item a URL, equivalent to about="" from RDFa
  139. # [01:55] <Lachy> didn't know microdata had an about attribute. Did that get added recently?
  140. # [01:55] <zcorpan> not a free authoring tool, though, but then again i guess authoring tools for flash aren't free, either (or are they?)
  141. # [01:55] <Hixie> not an attribute
  142. # [01:55] <Hixie> itemprop=about
  143. # [01:56] <Lachy> oh
  144. # [01:56] <Hixie> also, both studies so far indicate that authors really have no problem with itemprop="" containing full URLs
  145. # [01:56] <Hixie> they just sail right by that without issue
  146. # [01:58] <zcorpan> what will 'about' be replaced with?
  147. # [01:58] <Hixie> guha suggested "itemid"
  148. # [01:58] <Hixie> but i dunno, not making decisions in the usability lab :-)
  149. # [02:00] <zcorpan> of course you are, but you don't admit it. you'll post the study results to the list, and after much discussion, you'll stick 'itemid' into the spec, citing the fact that there's no consensus anyway
  150. # [02:01] <Philip`> r4000 was an anti-climax :-(
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  153. # [02:07] <Hixie> zcorpan: well it's highly likely that we'll use itemid, but i don't want to think about it right now
  154. # [02:07] <Hixie> zcorpan: there are other changes we'll have to make where i really don't yet know what we'll do
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  159. # [02:17] <zcorpan> Hixie: yeah, i was j/k
  160. # [02:18] <zcorpan> "Personally I lean towards the second of these" - http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/129
  161. # [02:18] <zcorpan> (which is "leave the creation of that DOM as implementation-defined")
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  163. # [02:31] <Lachy> I have matchesSelector() essentially defined now. All it took was the IDL and one line that says:
  164. # [02:31] <Lachy> The matchesSelector() method on the Element interface must, when invoked, return true if the _context node_ is a _matching Element node_. Otherwise, the method must return false.
  165. # [02:31] <Lachy> And then a little bit of shuffling other things around in the spec to reuse what was already specified.
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  173. # [02:55] <Hixie> so far no real confusion over types, despite the conversations we were having here
  174. # [02:55] <Hixie> four more studies tomorrow
  175. # [02:56] <Hixie> we're gonna try a couple with 'about' renamed to 'itemid'
  176. # [02:58] <Lachy> weinig, JohnResig http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api2/#matchtesting
  177. # [02:59] <othermaciej> should we take the webkit prefix off of our impl?
  178. # [03:02] <Lachy> othermaciej, assuming this API is accepted by the group as-is, then yes, webkit's implementation is effectively fully conforming, aside from the known no-value bugs
  179. # [03:05] <othermaciej> guess we should wait a little bit to see if anyone objects to the API
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  186. # [03:16] <Lachy> othermaciej, what are your thoughts on the idea of introducing a Selector object that can be used for handling the scoped selector use cases, allowing the .createSelector() factory method to handle the selector pre-processing?
  187. # [03:17] <othermaciej> Lachy: I'm not totally clear on what you are suggesting
  188. # [03:17] <othermaciej> can you give me an example?
  189. # [03:17] <Lachy> I'm thinking it might be better than introducing a whole bunch of new queryScopedSelector*() and matchesScopedSelector() interaces.
  190. # [03:17] <Lachy> sure, here's an example:
  191. # [03:17] <Lachy> wait, there's one in my mail in pubilc-webapps. I'll get the link
  192. # [03:18] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/1239.html
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  195. # [03:18] <Lachy> see from "Interface DocumentSelector" in that mail
  196. # [03:20] <othermaciej> hmmm
  197. # [03:20] <othermaciej> if impliedScope is an optional extra parameter to createSelector, why can't it just be an optional extra parameter to querySelector*() and matchSelector()?
  198. # [03:20] <othermaciej> it seems like that would be a more streamlined API
  199. # [03:20] <sicking> Lachy: i think introducing a selector object is a good idea if we want to reduce compile times
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  201. # [03:21] <othermaciej> the main advantage of Selector is if we expect someone will want to test against the same selector repeatedly, and time spent parsing the selector may be a significant part of the total cost
  202. # [03:21] <sicking> Lachy: but IMHO we should make the API such that functions, like querySelectorAll, accept either a string or a selector object
  203. # [03:21] <Lachy> having the createSelector method gives JS libraries an easy way to test for browser support
  204. # [03:21] <Lachy> sicking, yes, that was the idea
  205. # [03:21] <othermaciej> test for browser support of scoped selectors?
  206. # [03:21] <othermaciej> I guess that's true
  207. # [03:21] <Lachy> yes
  208. # [03:21] <othermaciej> but it's still needlessly awkward for simple cases
  209. # [03:22] <othermaciej> IMO
  210. # [03:22] <sicking> indeed, i think it should be possible to pass a string everywhere you can pass a selector object
  211. # [03:22] <Lachy> it might also give us a way to handle the namespace issue using the Selector object, if it can be set up with namespace resolution somehow
  212. # [03:22] <othermaciej> why should you have to say scopeElt.querySelector(Selector.createSelector("foo", scopeElt, true))
  213. # [03:23] <sicking> Lachy: that's not a bad idea
  214. # [03:23] <othermaciej> instead of scopeElt.querySelector("foo", true)
  215. # [03:23] <othermaciej> (actually the scope element probably should not be part of the selector by default)
  216. # [03:23] <Lachy> actually, you would need to do document.querySelectorAll(document.createSelector("foo", scopeElt, true)); to give the same result as JS libraries
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  218. # [03:24] <sicking> what's the 'true' argument?
  219. # [03:24] <othermaciej> I see
  220. # [03:24] <othermaciej> the "true" argument means make every selector of the selector group implicitly start with :scope
  221. # [03:24] <sicking> ah
  222. # [03:24] <Lachy> sicking, it determines if the browser should imply :scope automatically or not
  223. # [03:24] <othermaciej> but point being, I think you should be able to omit document.createSelector and the extra parens
  224. # [03:24] <othermaciej> even if we also have a Selector object
  225. # [03:25] <sicking> hmm.. i don't feel strongly regarding if scoped selectors can be done as both string and a object
  226. # [03:25] <othermaciej> because the Selector object is needless code noise unless you plan to reuse the selector
  227. # [03:25] <Lachy> fair enough
  228. # [03:25] <sicking> creating scoped selectors is mostly useful for libraries anyway
  229. # [03:25] <weinig> JohnResig: I had to make two changes to your test
  230. # [03:25] <Lachy> then I suppose we could do this:
  231. # [03:26] <othermaciej> it could also be useful for programmers who are used to the libraries but would like to code to the native API
  232. # [03:26] <sicking> othermaciej: it's really simple to add ":scope" to the beginning of your string
  233. # [03:26] <weinig> root.webkitMatchesSelector(null) === null -> root.webkitMatchesSelector(null) === false
  234. # [03:26] <weinig> root.webkitMatchesSelector(undefined) === null -> root.webkitMatchesSelector(undefined) === false
  235. # [03:27] <Lachy> NodeSelector.querySelectorAll(">em", true, scopeElement) (where scopeElement is optional and defaults to the Element it's being executed on)
  236. # [03:27] * sicking wish we didn't bother with defining behavior for null and undefined until we've all agreed for a default behavior for the rest of the DOM
  237. # [03:27] <othermaciej> sicking: it is, but if we export an API to do it automatically for convenience, then it may as well be easy to use that API
  238. # [03:28] <Lachy> sicking, we ended up removing the null and undefined definitions from selectors API. it's now left entirely up to web idl
  239. # [03:28] <sicking> othermaciej: you mean to scope automatically for conveience
  240. # [03:28] <sicking> Lachy: i know, but resigs test suites still test it
  241. # [03:29] <sicking> i guess what I propose is this:
  242. # [03:29] <Lachy> should we remove it from the test suite for this version the level 1 API?
  243. # [03:29] <sicking> Lachy: imho yes
  244. # [03:30] <othermaciej> sicking: yes
  245. # [03:31] <Lachy> sicking, it's not as simple as just prefixing :scope to the beginning of the string. It requires at least basic selector parsing to do it right, cause it's a group of selectors.
  246. # [03:31] <sicking> here's what i propose: allow querySelector/querySelectorAll/matchesSelector to take a string (in which case they don't do any automatic scoping), or a Selector object. Create two functions for creating selector objects: createSelector and createScopedSelector. The latter adds an implicit ":scope" before each selector
  247. # [03:32] <sicking> Lachy: when you're typing a string, as a human, it's easy to add ":scope" as needed
  248. # [03:33] <othermaciej> yeah but if someone is used to writing ">em, >i, >span.fancy" then it seems gratuitous to make them either write ":scope>em, :scope>i, :scope>span.fancy" or construct a Selector object
  249. # [03:33] <Lachy> for compat with JS libraries and existing content, and to allow JS libraries to reduce their dependence on custom selector parsing, the API should ideally handle cases like this ">em, >strong" easily.
  250. # [03:33] <othermaciej> Boris made a pretty good case that the performance argument for selector objects is dubious
  251. # [03:34] <sicking> Lachy: why "easily" if we're talking about libraries, it's not a big burden to ask them to create an object IMHO
  252. # [03:35] <Lachy> yeah, I don't think I would do the Selector object for perf reasons. It would have to be based on what's best for authors and JS libraries to use, and what's implementable
  253. # [03:35] <sicking> othermaciej: the alternative i guess is to add extra optinal parameters to all of querySelectorAll/querySelector/matchesSelector. Or create sibling functions: querySelectorAllScoped/querySelectorScoped/matchesSelectorScoped
  254. # [03:36] <Lachy> creating additional methods gets messy, especially if we want to address the namespace issue with additional NS methods too.
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  256. # [03:36] <sicking> agreed
  257. # [03:36] <Lachy> I really don't want to have to end up with queryScopedSelectorAllNS(), et al.
  258. # [03:37] <josespinal> what are the limitations of html5's data attributes?
  259. # [03:37] <sicking> but so does optional arguments if we want optional arguments to handle namespaced stuff too
  260. # [03:37] <sicking> josespinal: sky's the limit :)
  261. # [03:37] <Lachy> I know. That's why I was thinking the Selector object would be nice, since it handles it all in once place
  262. # [03:38] <josespinal> sicking, heh no limitation?
  263. # [03:38] <othermaciej> additional methods are good for feature testing compared to optional arguments, but bad for potential API explosion
  264. # [03:38] <sicking> josespinal: well, your users RAM
  265. # [03:38] <sicking> othermaciej: yup
  266. # [03:38] <othermaciej> including namespace mappings in a Selector object would be somewhat icky, since technically they are not part of the selector, they are part of the evaluation context
  267. # [03:38] <josespinal> aja
  268. # [03:38] <josespinal> !
  269. # [03:39] <Lachy> good point.
  270. # [03:39] <sicking> othermaciej: no, they're part of parsing
  271. # [03:39] <josespinal> sicking: when getting the attributes' values with JS?
  272. # [03:39] <sicking> othermaciej: that's how XPath does it too
  273. # [03:39] <Lachy> hmm.
  274. # [03:40] <othermaciej> sicking: I guess you could think of it that way
  275. # [03:40] <Lachy> yeah, it does. I looked at the XPath stuff today. That's where I got the idea for the Selector object
  276. # [03:40] <othermaciej> anyway, I'm not categorically against an object, I just get suspicious of needlessly verbose APIs
  277. # [03:41] <sicking> i agree, i'm just not sure what a good other solution would be
  278. # [03:41] <josespinal> ?
  279. # [03:41] <Lachy> I guess all we're doing is trading one type of needless verbosity with additional NS methods, with another with slightly messier syntax
  280. # [03:41] <sicking> i do would like to let the most common cases (source-wise) to not have to use objects
  281. # [03:41] <othermaciej> it reminds me of my discussion with hsivonen recently about whether it would be more fun to write (new XMLSerializer("application/xml")).serializeToString(myElt), or myElt.xmlMarkup
  282. # [03:42] <sicking> josespinal: not sure i understand your question. The answer about RAM was mostly a joke
  283. # [03:42] <sicking> josespinal: basically there's no defined limit as far as names or values goes
  284. # [03:42] <josespinal> oh ok, dumb me
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  286. # [03:42] <josespinal> ok
  287. # [03:42] <josespinal> thanks
  288. # [03:43] <sicking> josespinal: but i wouldn't try to do ridiculous things, like creating names that are hundreds of kB big
  289. # [03:43] <sicking> josespinal: or create thousands of attributes on the same element
  290. # [03:43] <sicking> josespinal: or stick GB of data into an attribute
  291. # [03:43] <josespinal> lol
  292. # [03:43] <sicking> in most those cases you're likely to run into implementation behavior
  293. # [03:43] <josespinal> got that
  294. # [03:44] <sicking> i think gecko has a pretty low limit on number of allowed attributes on a single element
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  296. # [03:44] <josespinal> 8 attributes would be too much i think
  297. # [03:44] <josespinal> :P
  298. # [03:44] <sicking> yeah, we don't allow more than 1024 attributes
  299. # [03:45] <sicking> but i've never heard of anyone butting up against that. Though maybe things will change now with data attributes
  300. # [03:46] <josespinal> change how?
  301. # [03:47] <sicking> people might use more attributes and start running into the 1024 limit
  302. # [03:47] <othermaciej> I wonder what WebKit's limit is
  303. # [03:47] <othermaciej> I don't think there is any limit when using the DOM APIs but there might be one at parse time
  304. # [03:48] <sicking> we limit it at 1024 because we store the attribute count and child count in the same 32bit bitfield
  305. # [03:49] <sicking> so we use 10 bits for attr-count and 32 bits for child-count
  306. # [03:49] <sicking> err.. 22bits for child count
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  308. # [03:51] <josespinal> interesting
  309. # [03:51] <sicking> hopefully the world has switched to 64bit before <input> elements get 1024 defined attributes :)
  310. # [03:51] <sicking> so far it seems like a tight race
  311. # [03:51] <josespinal> lol
  312. # [03:51] <josespinal> lets hope so
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  314. # [03:53] * josespinal has to run
  315. # [03:53] <josespinal> thanks for everything sicking
  316. # [03:53] <sirdarckcat> regarding CSS attribute reader from: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090924#l-993
  317. # [03:53] <sirdarckcat> => <annevk2> you cannot do much more than you can do already with JavaScript afaict
  318. # [03:53] * Parts: josespinal (n=josespin@tdev254-6.codetel.net.do)
  319. # [03:53] <sirdarckcat> thats true, but XSS filters only protect against javascript, not CSS
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  354. # [06:53] <othermaciej> Hixie: GMail is an example of a Web app that uses paste events (uses "paste" and "beforepaste" in rich text composition mode)
  355. # [06:53] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  356. # [06:54] <othermaciej> Hixie: likewise Google Docs (beforepaste, paste and copy)
  357. # [06:56] <othermaciej> Hixie: also Google Search
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  361. # [06:58] <othermaciej> Hixie: also Yahoo Mail
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  365. # [07:06] <othermaciej> Hixie: also YouTube (for some reason)
  366. # [07:13] * Quits: cohitre (n=cohitre@64-40-56-46-dsl.itltd.net)
  367. # [07:15] <othermaciej> Hixie: also the wiki server software that ships with Mac OS X
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  370. # [07:27] <ezyang> Does anyone remember the URL of that history viewer for the HTML5 spec?
  371. # [07:27] <ezyang> aha http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
  372. # [07:33] <ezyang> In the new "have an element in specific scope algorithm", what does "If node is the target node, terminate in a match state." mean?
  373. # [07:33] <ezyang> target node doesn't seem to refer to anything...
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  403. # [09:48] <Philip`> othermaciej: Microsoft has actually posted to the WHATWG (http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-February/014026.html) so I assume there's not a strict policy of staying away from it entirely
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  406. # [10:10] <othermaciej> Philip`: hmmm, other MS folks (e.g. Chris Wilson) have said otherwise, at least as to reading the list, but perhaps the policy changed
  407. # [10:11] <othermaciej> Philip`: regardless, it's probably easier to get Microsoft input by posting to W3C lists
  408. # [10:15] * Quits: lazni1 (n=lazni@113.22.52.143) ("Leaving.")
  409. # [10:15] <annevk2> hmm, my inbox is full of ECMA
  410. # [10:19] <Rik`> http://groups.google.com/group/base2-js/browse_thread/thread/37acf844ceeb181c html5lib by dean edwards
  411. # [10:24] <annevk2> sweet
  412. # [10:24] <annevk2> I wonder why that one guy finds IDLs hard to read
  413. # [10:24] * annevk2 finds them quite convenient
  414. # [10:25] * annevk2 learned how the DOM was put together by reading IDL blocks
  415. # [10:28] <annevk2> also nice, Sec-From is gone
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  420. # [10:41] <jgraham> That dean edwards thing assumes <legend> in <details>
  421. # [10:42] <jgraham> Also, unrelatedly, having selector objects for caching seems unnecessary; if parsing selectors is a significant performance problem the UA should cache them automatically
  422. # [10:42] * jgraham would prefer a selector-object free design in general
  423. # [10:43] <annevk2> I really wonder why we need to make it so complicated
  424. # [10:43] <jgraham> Indeed
  425. # [10:43] <annevk2> Though if we do we should really nuke DOM Traversal out of orbit
  426. # [10:44] <Philip`> Hmm, apparently it's extra impossible to implement RDFa in XSLT, because xmlns:xml="http://whateveritis" attributes are treated precisely identically to there being no such attribute, so you can't tell whether the prefix has been explicitly bound or not
  427. # [10:45] <annevk2> doesn't rebinding xml give you a nice violation of namespace well-formedness?
  428. # [10:46] <jgraham> Philip`: Is it just xmlns:xml that doesn't work or xmlns:foo in general?
  429. # [10:46] <Philip`> jgraham: Won't there be issues with parsing being based on namespace mapping functions, so your cache would have to detect when it's passed a different function since the parse results would change?
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  431. # [10:47] <jgraham> Philip`: I don't know what the plan is for namespaces
  432. # [10:47] <Philip`> annevk2: "The prefix xml is by definition bound to the namespace name http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace. It MAY, but need not, be declared, and MUST NOT be bound to any other namespace name."
  433. # [10:48] <Philip`> so it's okay as long as you use the correct value
  434. # [10:48] <jgraham> Philip`: But it isn't obviously impossible to make the design cacheable
  435. # [10:49] <Philip`> jgraham: Just xmlns:xml I think - a complete implementation should allow access to namespace mappings, so xmlns:foo is okay, and the problem is just that xml is in the mapping regardless of whether it's declared
  436. # [10:50] <annevk2> Philip`, ah ok
  437. # [10:50] <Philip`> (though apparently Firefox's XSLT implementation doesn't let you access xmlns:foo at all)
  438. # [10:50] * jgraham wonders if that is a problem for other tree libs e.g. lxml
  439. # [10:50] <jgraham> or XOM or whatever
  440. # [10:50] <Philip`> jgraham: Indeed - automatic caching seems to make much more sense, in terms of shifting complexity from users to implementors
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  442. # [10:54] <Philip`> (Also, implementors could optimise their parsers)
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  463. # [11:56] * jgraham wonders how an operating system and browser implemented in pure ecmascript would work
  464. # [11:57] <jgraham> Since there is no way to access the hardware or anything
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  466. # [11:58] <annevk2> yeah ...
  467. # [11:58] <annevk2> I just replied
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  476. # [12:16] <othermaciej> jgraham: even taking that assumption as a given, the further conclusions don't make sense, so I decided not to argue with it
  477. # [12:17] <othermaciej> jgraham: but it does seem so hypothetical that it's not a very strong argument against API convenience
  478. # [12:18] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I noticed you had mentioned XMLSerializer in the logs
  479. # [12:19] <othermaciej> hsivonen: in reference to our old discussion, yeah
  480. # [12:19] <othermaciej> it was incidental to the topic (which was Selectors API enhancements)
  481. # [12:19] <hsivonen> othermaciej: considering possible new information since we last discussed it, what's your take on changing WebKit to serialize HTML DOMs as XML if the MySpace problem were evangelized away?
  482. # [12:20] <othermaciej> I think the fact that WebKit serializes HTML DOMs as HTML was totally an accident
  483. # [12:20] <othermaciej> and I'm surprised and alarmed that sites ever came to depend on it
  484. # [12:20] <hsivonen> othermaciej: do you consider it a fixable accident?
  485. # [12:21] <othermaciej> if MySpace is the only significant breakage, and if it can be fixed, then yes I think it is fixable
  486. # [12:21] <othermaciej> our intent was to emulate the Gecko API
  487. # [12:21] <hsivonen> othermaciej: OK. thanks.
  488. # [12:22] <hsivonen> annevk2: given what othermaciej said, can you speculate on whether Opera would align with the Gecko trunk behavior?
  489. # [12:23] <hsivonen> othermaciej: Is the failure to emulate Gecko when it comes to non-void but empty http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml elements on the XML side deliberate, though?
  490. # [12:23] <hsivonen> I.e. WebKit does <div></div> rather than <div/>
  491. # [12:23] <othermaciej> ah
  492. # [12:24] <othermaciej> when serializing XML elements in the HTML namespace, we attempt to produce HTML-compatible XML, in all our paths for producing XML
  493. # [12:24] <othermaciej> if that created compatibility issues in specific contexts, we could change it
  494. # [12:24] <hsivonen> Yeah, I thought that was deliberate.
  495. # [12:25] <othermaciej> well, we didn't make a conscious choice to apply it to XMLSerializer specifically
  496. # [12:25] <hsivonen> so would the agreeable convergence target be taking the WebKit XML-side behavior and making it standard on both HTML and XML trees?
  497. # [12:25] <othermaciej> we decided to do that based on other contexts that serialize to XML (possibly even native APIs) and decided to do it everywhere
  498. # [12:25] <hsivonen> (so the delta to Gecko trunk would be turning <div/> into <div></div>)
  499. # [12:26] <othermaciej> I think that would make sense, if MySpace can be fixed
  500. # [12:26] <hsivonen> Great!
  501. # [12:26] <hsivonen> any views from anyone from Opera?
  502. # [12:26] <othermaciej> also for void elements we put the gratuitous space before the slash
  503. # [12:26] <annevk2> hsivonen, I'm fine with aligning
  504. # [12:26] <othermaciej> <br />
  505. # [12:27] <annevk2> hsivonen, will you write a spec? :)
  506. # [12:27] <hsivonen> annevk2: which alignment? :-)
  507. # [12:27] <annevk2> hsivonen, with the spec :p
  508. # [12:28] <annevk2> hsivonen, I don't think we care much either way, as long as sites work, so Gecko trunk + MySpace fix would work
  509. # [12:28] <hsivonen> annevk2: I commit to writing a spec on the spot here without approval from Mozilla, but I've worked under the assumption that morally I'm on the hook for writing a spec some day
  510. # [12:28] <hsivonen> I *can't* commit
  511. # [12:29] <hsivonen> one negation makes such a difference in sentences :-(
  512. # [12:29] <hsivonen> annevk2: OK. thanks.
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  523. # [13:35] * annevk2 wonders if it's worth fighting the deprecation of text/xml in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-murata-kohn-lilley-xml and the continued bullshit of the charset defaulting to us-ascii in text/xml (is there a consumer out there other than mpilgrim_'s feedparser that implements that?)
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  525. # [13:39] <hsivonen> annevk2: Validator.nu!
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  527. # [13:40] <hsivonen> annevk2: and I have a checkbox in the UI that amounts to "[x] Violate RFC 3023"
  528. # [13:40] <hsivonen> and I haven't even gotten the t-shirt! :-(
  529. # [13:42] <hsivonen> annevk2: the way the IETF is dealing with the text/* default brokenness is really, really sad
  530. # [13:42] <hsivonen> big cultural difference compared to how the WHATWG does things
  531. # [13:43] * hsivonen wonders if there's an experimental sociologist taking notes and at least getting a PhD. out of this
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  535. # [13:54] <annevk2> hsivonen, agreed
  536. # [13:56] <annevk2> hsivonen, not sure whether to like or dislike the Validator.nu compliance :)
  537. # [13:56] <annevk2> hsivonen, I guess it's a fun easter egg
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  540. # [14:08] <gsnedders> annevk2: SimplePie supports it with US-ASCII with fallback in a similar way to Universal Feed Parser
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  542. # [14:10] <hsivonen> gsnedders: how does that mean it supports it if falls back onto a superset of ASCII?
  543. # [14:10] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Basically yeah.
  544. # [14:10] <hsivonen> gsnedders: does it throw a bozo exception in addition to falling back?
  545. # [14:11] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I had an impl of that, but removed that, and just haven't removed the encoding magic yet.
  546. # [14:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: BTW bibbi told me to tell you not to panic. I don't know if someone told her to tell me to tell you that or not
  547. # [14:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: She emailed me last night
  548. # [14:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: She may have got you to tell me because I'm not reading email much this month :)
  549. # [14:13] <jgraham> Yes, she said that too. Did it have the words Don't Panic enblazoned in large friendly letters at the top
  550. # [14:13] <gsnedders> No, nor on the back.
  551. # [14:13] <jgraham> ?
  552. # [14:14] <gsnedders> Well, it was on the back originally, though I don't know how you can have it on the back of an email…
  553. # [14:14] <gsnedders> Anyhow, I'm off (to prove I don't read email)
  554. # [14:14] <jgraham> Well maybe that's why she told me to tell you not to panic. It may even be why someone told her to tell me to tell you not to panic. But we don't know
  555. # [14:17] * jgraham can't find any evidence that Don't Panic was written on the back as opposed to the front
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  557. # [14:20] <annevk2> it's on the top of my laptops
  558. # [14:20] <Lachy> gsnedders, Don't Panic was always on the front, at least in the original radio series
  559. # [14:20] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@212.251.175.125)
  560. # [14:25] * jgraham only remembers "on the cover" which was also all that a quick Google search turned up
  561. # [14:25] <jgraham> But on the fornt makes much more sense
  562. # [14:25] <jgraham> *front
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  564. # [14:31] * hsivonen didn't know that the "languages" side bar on wikipedia supports one-to-many mappings
  565. # [14:31] <hsivonen> for a moment there I thought I had broken the parser
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  578. # [15:06] <Philip`> Aren't workers likely to import standalone script libraries, which might also be imported by non-worker scripts on the same site, and which might use non-ASCII characters?
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  580. # [15:07] <Philip`> The worker scripts themselves are likely to be new, but they'll use bits and pieces of old library code
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  583. # [15:11] <Philip`> Hah
  584. # [15:11] <Philip`> If I apply http://www.rddl.org/rddl2rdf.xsl to http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace then the output is not namespace-well-formed XML
  585. # [15:11] <Philip`> Hooray for namespaces!
  586. # [15:12] <murr5y> \o/
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  590. # [15:29] <Lachy> My first attempt at supporting scoped selectors in Selectors API has been checked in. http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api2/#the-apis
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  592. # [15:32] <karlushi> http://arstechnica.com/staff/fatbits/2009/09/metadata-madness.ars - This article about file type on macosx reminds me about mimetypes issues.
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  595. # [15:33] <Rik|work> karlushi: ping, you got mail :)
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  597. # [15:36] <karlushi> Rik about parisweb? Seen it yesterday evening but was too tired to really think about it. :) I'll reply tonight.
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  600. # [15:39] <annevk2> data URLs are same origin...
  601. # [15:39] <annevk2> most of the time, anyway
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  605. # [15:44] <jgraham> It seems like a worker can use a cross-origin script with the cooperation of the page anyway
  606. # [15:45] <jgraham> <script type="text/x-worker" src="http://thirdparty.example"></script> and then .toString() the script and postMessage it to the worker which can eval it
  607. # [15:48] <TabAtkins> Sure, but it's always possible to shoot yourself in the foot.
  608. # [15:49] <TabAtkins> You could do the same by having a helper page make a cross-origin (non-JS) request for the script, and have the worker XHR and eval it.
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  610. # [15:51] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I'm not advocating cross-domain workers at all but it's not obvious why this is shooting yourself in the foot
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  613. # [15:51] <TabAtkins> Just in the general sense that allowing a script on a domain you don't control to run in your security context is potentially bad.
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  615. # [15:52] <jgraham> Well yes, but the whole web is based on that working
  616. # [15:53] <jgraham> At least the part of the web that relies on advertising
  617. # [15:54] <TabAtkins> Yeah, and that sorta sucks. >_<
  618. # [15:55] <TabAtkins> But anyway, I doubt that advertising will be using Workers, so might as well keep it difficult to do this sort of thing.
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  620. # [15:56] <jgraham> You don't envison adverts that compute the first million digits of pi in the background?
  621. # [15:57] <miketaylr> Buy viagra....π
  622. # [15:58] <TabAtkins> Hehe.
  623. # [16:05] <TabAtkins> Grah, I hate having our store hosted by someone else. It makes editting so difficult, especially when I don't actually have a login for them, and the dude I'm supposed to be sharing with (who has appropriate permissions for me to edit the store code) isn't in yet.
  624. # [16:05] <hsivonen> w00t! wikipedia got made HTML5 without the space the authoritative page
  625. # [16:06] <annevk2> zcorpan, next you should argue for a media type :)
  626. # [16:06] <annevk2> zcorpan, come to think of it, if importScripts imports ECMAscript it probably does not make much sense to always use UTF-8
  627. # [16:06] <Lachy> hsivonen, what does "without the space the authoritative page" mean?
  628. # [16:06] <annevk2> it means HTML_5 is now named HTML5
  629. # [16:07] <annevk2> I guess
  630. # [16:07] <hsivonen> Lachy: HTML5 used to redirect to HTML_5
  631. # [16:07] <hsivonen> Lachy: now HTML_5 redirects to HTML5
  632. # [16:07] <Lachy> oh
  633. # [16:07] <hsivonen> in mediawiki terms of "redirection"
  634. # [16:08] <Lachy> That's interesting, considering this that opposed it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:HTML5#Back_to_.22HTML5.22
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  649. # [16:41] <TabAtkins> Firefox devs: I want tearoff tabs. >_<
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  651. # [16:42] <TabAtkins> Oh, nm, I have them now.
  652. # [16:42] <TabAtkins> Didn't realize this.
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  657. # [16:46] * jgraham isn't sure he is happy with the ECMAScript people trying to constrain API design to what is implementable in pure ECMAScript
  658. # [16:47] <Philip`> Because you don't consider that a valuable goal?
  659. # [16:47] <Philip`> It seems pretty useful for e.g. emulating new APIs in old browsers
  660. # [16:48] <jgraham> Because a) I don't understand the reason for it and b) without knowing a) it seems more useful to have well-designed APIs than artifically constrained ones
  661. # [16:49] <TabAtkins> I think Philip` provided probably the biggest practical reason.
  662. # [16:49] <jgraham> Philip`: In many cases new APIs can't really be emulated in old browsers anyway
  663. # [16:49] <TabAtkins> I don't think the idea that an OS might be implemented in ecmascript is very important to worry about, though.
  664. # [16:49] <Philip`> jgraham: In many cases you can make a good enough approximation for people to survive
  665. # [16:49] <Philip`> e.g. with <canvas>
  666. # [16:49] <jgraham> Philip`: What about localStorage?
  667. # [16:50] <Philip`> or you could use Flash as the backend implementation
  668. # [16:50] <Philip`> jgraham: Maybe Flash, or cookies, or use a remote web service for persistent storage
  669. # [16:51] <TabAtkins> And there's that crazy window.name hack for SessionStorage.
  670. # [16:51] <jgraham> In any case this seems like a tradeoff for the HTML WG to make on a case-by-case basis, not one for TC39 to insist on as a blanket restriction
  671. # [16:51] <Philip`> "we believe that new host APIs should generally seek to avoid requiring catchalls" sounds a long way from a blanket restriction
  672. # [16:52] <jgraham> Philip`: Depends whether by "generally" they mean "always" or "unless they make sense"
  673. # [16:52] <Philip`> (Implementing localStorage via a remote storage service would be excellently ironic, unless I'm forgetting what "ironic" means)
  674. # [16:53] <TabAtkins> I think that's irony, yes.
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  676. # [16:53] <TabAtkins> Also: ecma just needs __get magic like PHP and Ruby have. Then catchalls won't be a problem.
  677. # [16:53] <jgraham> I thought Americans didn't get irony? ;)
  678. # [16:53] <Philip`> jgraham: Well, if "generally" means "always", and "should" means "must", and "seek to avoid" means "don't"...
  679. # [16:54] <Philip`> I suppose then it would be a blanket restriction
  680. # [16:54] <jgraham> Philip`: Well they clearly don't like something in HTML5. And it's not like there are dozens of places where catchalls have been used
  681. # [16:54] * Parts: ezyang (n=ezyang@DR-WILY.MIT.EDU)
  682. # [16:54] <Philip`> ("Blanket restriction" sounds like something you get during wartime rationing when there's not enough cloth to go around)
  683. # [16:55] <jgraham> So I would conclude that the restriction they have in mind is severe enough that one of the rather few instances of a new API that uses this pattern is enough to violate it
  684. # [16:56] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Yeah they have been arguning about the precise way to implemtn catchalls for as long as I can remember
  685. # [16:56] <TabAtkins> Man, it ain't hard.
  686. # [16:56] <jgraham> Which, admittedly isn't very long in this case
  687. # [16:57] <Philip`> Yeah, they should just copy all of PHP's design decisions
  688. # [16:57] <TabAtkins> I'm glad you see things our way, Philip`.
  689. # [16:57] <TabAtkins> Anyway, it's *also* Ruby's design decision.
  690. # [16:57] <jgraham> http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:catchalls
  691. # [16:57] <jgraham> Python has __getattr__
  692. # [16:57] <Philip`> I think they should randomise the function naming conventions in the next version of ECMAScript too
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  694. # [16:59] * jgraham can't say he is super-thrilled by a proposal wehich appears to require first creating an object and then defining the catchalls on it seperatly
  695. # [16:59] <TabAtkins> Man, Philip`, my heart flutters at the mere possibility.
  696. # [17:00] <TabAtkins> (Though function naming isn't that bad. It's the *argument ordering* that really drives me crazy.)
  697. # [17:01] <TabAtkins> (Like in_array and substr taking the needle and haystack in opposite order.)
  698. # [17:02] * Philip` wonders where the terms needle/haystack originated, in the context of search algorithms
  699. # [17:02] <TabAtkins> Can a page on a secure connection link to a resource on another, different secure connection without raising the security dialog?
  700. # [17:02] <Dashiva> TabAtkins: It's also annoying that some functions are whatnot and others are array_whatnot
  701. # [17:03] <TabAtkins> Philip`, isn't it obvious? The needle/haystack metaphor has been around forever.
  702. # [17:03] <Philip`> I don't remember hearing it more than a few years ago
  703. # [17:03] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: Yeah, but honestly, that just doesn't bother me that much. I've learned enough langauges that names just slide in.
  704. # [17:03] <TabAtkins> "Like finding a needle in a haystack"?
  705. # [17:03] <TabAtkins> That's an old, old expression.
  706. # [17:04] <TabAtkins> Denotes a difficult search.
  707. # [17:04] <Philip`> I know the expression, but not its adoption into search algorithms
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  709. # [17:05] <TabAtkins> Philip`, as far as I know it's been around for a long time there as well. Been in every literature I've read since I started programming.
  710. # [17:05] <Dashiva> It seems like a no-brainer
  711. # [17:05] <TabAtkins> (Which, admittedly, is only like 10 years ago or so.)
  712. # [17:05] <Philip`> http://www.manpagez.com/man/3/strstr/ just uses s1,s2, but http://linux.die.net/man/3/strstr uses haystack,needle
  713. # [17:07] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  714. # [17:07] <TabAtkins> So, I'm trying to decide if I can fake out the security dialog. I have a page on a secure connection on a server that I have little control over, and probably no ability to store arbitrary files. I also have a handy secure site which I *do* have completely control over already set up.
  715. # [17:07] <TabAtkins> I wanna use the latter to host files for the former to link to, if it'll make the browser shut up about linking to insecure resources.
  716. # [17:08] <Philip`> Hmm, apparently glibc documentation used haystack/needle since at least 1995
  717. # [17:09] <Philip`> but I'm sure I never heard it until relatively recently
  718. # [17:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: haystack/needle is ancient
  719. # [17:09] <TabAtkins> Define 'recently'.
  720. # [17:10] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Recently enough that I can remember thinking "ooh, that's a good name for the arguments" when I first noticed it
  721. # [17:10] <TabAtkins> Heh, k.
  722. # [17:10] <TabAtkins> Yeah, your brain is just crazy, then.
  723. # [17:10] <hsivonen> I'm pretty sure it appears in at least one of Boyer–Moore, Rabin–Karp or Knuth–Morris–Pratt papers
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  725. # [17:11] <TabAtkins> Woo, awesome, hosting on an unrelated secure server works.
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  727. # [17:13] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Does the browser UI still indicate that the site is secure? (like when it shows the name of the site in a green/yellow box in the address bar, or whatever)
  728. # [17:14] * Philip` has seen lots of secure sites where Opera just shows a grey "?" because it doesn't trust all the content on the page
  729. # [17:14] <Philip`> (which is particularly annoying when they're pages asking for my credit card details)
  730. # [17:14] <TabAtkins> Philip`, I'm viewing in IE, since it has the dialog most likely to produce a broken page (clicking "yes" makes it ignore all the insecure items).
  731. # [17:14] <TabAtkins> So, maybe?
  732. # [17:14] <TabAtkins> Anyway, got lots and lots of stuff to push over and change links for now.
  733. # [17:15] <TabAtkins> I just confirmed that the template CSS is working, which made me happy.
  734. # [17:15] <TabAtkins> Because ie8 users were getting a style-less, image-less page.
  735. # [17:15] <TabAtkins> (still usable, but no one who saw it wanted to, because they were confused)
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  756. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> Philip`, now that everything is being delivered securely, it does indeed indicate that it's a secure connection.
  757. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> FF and IE agree.
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  764. # [18:18] <Hixie> study three
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  790. # [19:18] <Hixie> well that was interesting
  791. # [19:19] <gsnedders> I agree.
  792. # [19:20] <Hixie> she was doing variant 002
  793. # [19:20] <Hixie> she didn't get the idea of scoping at all, until we showed her the variant 003 syntax, and she was like "oooh, itemscope="", yes!"
  794. # [19:20] <Hixie> also she had huge trouble with the idea of using URLs for identifiers
  795. # [19:20] <Hixie> unlike the other two, who were fine with it
  796. # [19:21] <Hixie> we were hoping to learn more about types, but she didn't really comment on them
  797. # [19:21] <Hixie> so that didn't help much
  798. # [19:23] <annevk2> how many people are participating in total?
  799. # [19:25] <Hixie> 2 yesterday, 3 today
  800. # [19:25] <Hixie> maybe 2 more monday
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  802. # [19:29] <erlehmann> Hixie, are you employing a social scientist or usability psychologist for that ?
  803. # [19:29] <erlehmann> or is it just … "well, lets see"
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  806. # [19:29] <Hixie> erlehmann: yes, we have a team of usability experts here
  807. # [19:30] <Hixie> erlehmann: with recruiters, screeners, moderators, script writers, etc
  808. # [19:30] <erlehmann> script writers ? the'll miss <dialog>, for sure *smirk*
  809. # [19:30] <Hixie> one-way glass, eye tracking (though we're not using the eye tracking in this case), etc
  810. # [19:30] <erlehmann> oh wow
  811. # [19:31] <Hixie> actually usability study scripts tend to just be <li> elements :-)
  812. # [19:31] <Hixie> it's quite the setup
  813. # [19:31] <erlehmann> Hixie, your description fits my game taste perfectly. played ascii portal yet ?
  814. # [19:31] <Hixie> (i was hoping we'd be able to make the videos public, but it looks like we can't because the participants only grant us rights to use the videos internally)
  815. # [19:32] <erlehmann> oh, how sad.
  816. # [19:32] <Hixie> (though apparently if people want to see them i can show them to you if you come here and agree to the standard visitor NDAs)
  817. # [19:32] <erlehmann> "here" ? norway ?
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  819. # [19:35] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Google, Mountain View
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  821. # [19:36] <erlehmann> gsnedders, i was going by whois information, but that seems logical, yes.
  822. # [19:37] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Hixie runs IRC on some box in Norway because that's where he has a reliable computer he can run IRC over ssh on :P
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  832. # [20:06] <Philip`> I suppose one problem is you get no idea about long-term usability
  833. # [20:07] <Philip`> like whether verbose identifiers become really annoying after you've had to copy-and-paste them for the hundredth time into your document
  834. # [20:07] <Hixie> yeah
  835. # [20:07] <Hixie> that is a huge problem, indeed
  836. # [20:07] <Hixie> though we have learnt that authors have no problem with copy and paste
  837. # [20:07] <Hixie> 3 out of 3 authors so far have happily used context menus and copy and paste without any difficulty whatsoever
  838. # [20:08] <Philip`> If I remember correctly, hsivonen complains about having to copy-and-paste namespace URIs even when he only has to have them once per document
  839. # [20:08] <Philip`> and with complex embedded data you might have a dozen different identifiers each used a dozen times on the page
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  841. # [20:09] <Philip`> I presume the problem is more about finding a place to copy from, rather than the mechanism of copy-and-paste
  842. # [20:10] <Hixie> yup
  843. # [20:10] <Hixie> totally agree
  844. # [20:10] <Philip`> So I guess your data won't be convincing evidence against the need for CURIEs
  845. # [20:10] <Philip`> so RDFa wins again!
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  847. # [20:12] <solepixel> ok, IE8. What gives? All my html5 tags don't work, or they're being displayed "inline" or something. I have a reset stylesheet which is setting them all to display:block, but that's not taking. Is there something I should know about this issue?
  848. # [20:12] <Hixie> oh we're not trying to study rdfa here
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  850. # [20:13] <erlehmann> solepixel, google frame ;)
  851. # [20:13] <erlehmann> Hixie, isn't 3 a really small number for extrapolation ?
  852. # [20:14] <erlehmann> or do you just want to uncover problems ?
  853. # [20:14] <inimino> solepixel: you probably want the createElement hack
  854. # [20:14] <solepixel> ouch
  855. # [20:14] <solepixel> so my html5 requires JS to run in IE8?
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  857. # [20:16] <da3d> solepixel: You want http://html5shiv.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/html5.js
  858. # [20:16] <solepixel> so, what you're saying is, this HTML5 that everyone's saying is OK to use "today" isn't really without this javascript hack?
  859. # [20:17] * Philip` wonders how the word "shiv" got so entrenched here
  860. # [20:17] * masinter notes productive discussion of copy/paste difficulty as requirement has been useful, but that 'authors using text editors' are only small segment of market that create HTML pages
  861. # [20:17] <inimino> solepixel: HTML5 features are fine to use in browsers that support them
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  864. # [20:18] <inimino> solepixel: if you heard that IE8 is supporting a lot of new HTML5 features, you were misinformed
  865. # [20:19] <masinter> noting things that interfere with backward compatibility with large deployed base of existing browsers would be really helpful, most standards updates take compatibility with all sides (producers and consumers) and not just one side (old producers, i.e., existing web pages)
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  867. # [20:19] * masinter goes back to TAG meeting
  868. # [20:19] <solepixel> no, i just saw in numerous blogs/sites that people say "yes, start using HTML5". yet they all failed to mention hacks were required for IE8
  869. # [20:19] <hsivonen> Philip`: I use assistive technology for writing ns uris
  870. # [20:20] <masinter> they were misinformed: http://www.w3.org/QA/2009/05/_watching_the_google_io.html
  871. # [20:20] <hsivonen> Philip`: I have a program that hooks into the accessibility APIs and expands nmemonics into full uris for me
  872. # [20:20] <solepixel> John Resig being one of them
  873. # [20:21] <hsivonen> however, I had a typo in the Xlink macro, so teh wrong ns got expanded all over the place. including the V.nu talisman checking
  874. # [20:21] * nlogpaul is now known as paul_irish_
  875. # [20:22] <hober> paul_irish_: nice post re: chrome & @font-face
  876. # [20:25] <paul_irish_> hober: oh thanks man! :)
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  880. # [20:27] <hsivonen> hober: URL?
  881. # [20:27] <paul_irish_> http://paulirish.com/2009/chrome-and-font-face-a-summary/
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  884. # [20:34] <hsivonen> paul_irish_: thanks
  885. # [20:34] <paul_irish_> :)
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  887. # [20:44] <masinter> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/53
  888. # [20:47] <masinter> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#text-html
  889. # [20:47] <Hixie> erlehmann: 2 yesterday, 3 today, 2 monday. turns out more than 6 is actually not that much more information.
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  891. # [20:50] <erlehmann> Hixie, and from what background did you pick your candidates ? web developers ?
  892. # [20:50] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153) (Remote closed the connection)
  893. # [20:50] <Hixie> yeah, engineers and web devs. we have a recruiting department, they ask screening questions to try to get people familiar with html but not familiar with html5, etc
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  895. # [20:51] <Hixie> asking questions like "what text editor do you use" and "how much do you use css"
  896. # [20:51] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
  897. # [20:51] <Hixie> we figured that would help weed out the wysiwyg users a bit
  898. # [20:52] <erlehmann> Well, then i'll go for „MS Word“ and „I liked Counterstrike 1.6 more.“ :p
  899. # [20:53] <gsnedders> It's cool Google are doing this, though.
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  902. # [21:06] <hsivonen> hehe. jd has already drawn parallels between Silverlight and Chrome Frame
  903. # [21:06] <erlehmann> Hixie, was usability testing also employed in other regards, like naming the URI input type "url" etc. ?
  904. # [21:06] <erlehmann> or is this a first for the spec ?
  905. # [21:08] <masinter> the idea of studying this is bizarre, to pick the spec point by point for usability
  906. # [21:08] <masinter> that's like having an application user interface and asking people if they like blue or green menu items better
  907. # [21:10] <Hixie> erlehmann: first time for html5
  908. # [21:11] <erlehmann> well i guess there wont be a second time then ? after all, other issues are not so complicated and last call is near.
  909. # [21:11] <Hixie> masinter: you wouldn't ask them which they prefer, you'd test which makes them more productive
  910. # [21:11] <othermaciej> it's not like asking, it's like doing a usability test to see if blue or green menu items are for whatever reason easier to use
  911. # [21:11] <masinter> if the criteria is 'consistency' and 'coherence', there's no way to discover that by asking piece by piece whether the overall language makes sense from a usability point of view
  912. # [21:11] <othermaciej> the latter may still be trivial and perhaps likely to produce more statistical noise than meaningful results, but at least it would not be fallacious
  913. # [21:11] <Hixie> masinter: (and google does do that; we've even doing A/B comparison studies for shades of blue on the search results page!)
  914. # [21:12] <Hixie> masinter: we don't ask them what they think, we make them do exercises and see how well they do with different variants
  915. # [21:12] <Hixie> masinter: you can see the scripts we use here: http://damowmow.com/playground/microdata/
  916. # [21:12] * Quits: sebmarkbage (n=miranda@h-73-244.A146.priv.bahnhof.se) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  917. # [21:12] <masinter> my comment about consistency and coherence of the overall language stand, no matter how you judge individual features
  918. # [21:12] <othermaciej> and when doing usability testing, yes, it does make sense to consider only one or a few features / tasks at a time
  919. # [21:12] <Hixie> participant 4 just started, following this script: http://damowmow.com/playground/microdata/script-participant5
  920. # [21:12] <Hixie> er, participant 5 even
  921. # [21:13] <masinter> maciej: tasks, yes. features, no
  922. # [21:13] <erlehmann> masinter, html5 is not consistent at all. film at 11.
  923. # [21:13] <Hixie> though it's the fourth person, we're doing them out of order because someone canceled on us earlier today
  924. # [21:13] <masinter> i'm not saying that doing experiments is bad, it's just drawing grand conclusions based on them
  925. # [21:13] <othermaciej> judging consistency and coherence of the whole language is useful, but not in the same way as using usability testing
  926. # [21:14] <othermaciej> usability testing can't generally tell you if your whole UI paradigm is wrong (if we take it back to its usual domain)
  927. # [21:14] <Hixie> oh actually we're using script 6 with this participant (http://damowmow.com/playground/microdata/script-participant6)
  928. # [21:14] <masinter> are there any reliable statistics about percentage of web pages served that are actually hand-authored, vs. generated by database tools?
  929. # [21:14] <Hixie> my bad
  930. # [21:14] <othermaciej> you have to have good judgment to get the right basic ideas in the UI, and then you can use usability testing to refine them
  931. # [21:14] <masinter> or built with wysiwyg tools, such as rich text email editors?
  932. # [21:15] <Hixie> othermaciej: it can tell you your paradigm isn't working, though it can't tell you how to fix the whole paradigm, i'd say
  933. # [21:15] <masinter> just the relative importance given in the language design to hackers using emails to build HTML
  934. # [21:15] <masinter> s/email/emacs/
  935. # [21:15] <othermaciej> Hixie: fair enough, though if you have a design that broken, then you need a good designer more than you need usability testing
  936. # [21:16] <Hixie> othermaciej: no argument there!
  937. # [21:16] <TabAtkins> Hixie: What are the differences between 001 and 002? I can't tell on a quick visual diff.
  938. # [21:16] <othermaciej> masinter: enough people (and in particular enough early adopters and educators/advocates) hand-author that it's worth considering
  939. # [21:16] * masinter thinks extensibility, coherence, reliability of processing, locality of effects of processing, debugability etc. are more important in language design than usability, even for markup languages
  940. # [21:17] <othermaciej> I think there's generally an assumption that making something nicer for hand-authoring will not materially harm the ability of tools to produce it
  941. # [21:17] <Hixie> TabAtkins: http://damowmow.com/playground/microdata/002-001 explains going from 002 to 001
  942. # [21:17] <masinter> more pages are edited and debugged than are authored in the first place
  943. # [21:17] <othermaciej> sure, so making HTML write-only like Perl would be a poor choice
  944. # [21:18] <masinter> that was the argument for programming languages too: programmers spend more time trying to figure out what someone else's code than they do writing stuff in the first place
  945. # [21:18] <othermaciej> though we are constrained by legacy to have some details that may be hard for a non-expert to infer from reading
  946. # [21:19] <othermaciej> for example, without knowing what elements implicitly close what other elements, and which elements are void it may be hard to read markup that doesn't go out of its way to indicate when things are closed
  947. # [21:19] <Hixie> othermaciej: the good news on that front is that authors are finding reading microdata easier than writing it
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  950. # [21:19] <othermaciej> Hixie: are there any tests that involve them taking existing microdata markup and changing it to say something else?
  951. # [21:20] <masinter> or just figuring out what it says and whether it says what you think it says?
  952. # [21:20] <masinter> or debugging "i got out X and I meant for it to say Y, fix it?"
  953. # [21:20] <othermaciej> masinter: Hixie did say there are tests for reading microdata which are going well
  954. # [21:20] <Hixie> othermaciej: one exercise has them writing out the name-value pairs of http://damowmow.com/playground/microdata/002/flickr-annotated.html
  955. # [21:20] <masinter> debugging is much different from reading
  956. # [21:20] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@BAE3667.bae.pppool.de)
  957. # [21:21] <Hixie> othermaciej: and the main other exercise is getting them to annotate http://damowmow.com/playground/microdata/002/blog.html
  958. # [21:21] <masinter> metadata is more likely to be inserted using database publishing, anyway
  959. # [21:22] <masinter> hand-authored metadata is likely to be rare anyway; the most important use cases for adding metadata to web pages come from database publishing, so the relevance of usability here is really suspect
  960. # [21:22] <othermaciej> masinter: many authors hand-author microdata markup, or templates that contain it, so I doubt your conclusion
  961. # [21:22] <masinter> i asked for statistics and you say 'many'
  962. # [21:23] <othermaciej> many authors also try to hand-author RDFa markup or templates containing it
  963. # [21:23] <masinter> now, i don't have statistics either, but i know about metadata through authoring tool chains and most of the metadata is added automatically in all of the workflows i know of, by the tools
  964. # [21:24] * Philip` doesn't know how you could do something like RDFa/microdata without a human writing either the markup or the markup templates
  965. # [21:24] <othermaciej> I understand that you doubt the value of this usability study, but pre-emptively criticizing its conclusions does not seem like a good use of time
  966. # [21:24] <masinter> i'm not criticizing its conclusions
  967. # [21:24] <masinter> not at all, sorry if that seemed like i was saying
  968. # [21:25] <othermaciej> "i'm not saying that doing experiments is bad, it's just drawing grand conclusions based on them"
  969. # [21:25] <masinter> exactly, i don't expect there to be any grand conclusions, do you?
  970. # [21:25] <Hixie> i would imagine most pages that have microformats, rdfa, or that will have microdata, are either written by hand, or autofilled into templates that are themselves written by hand
  971. # [21:25] <othermaciej> I expect there to be modest conclusions, which are nontheless useful
  972. # [21:25] <othermaciej> since that is what usually happens with usability studies
  973. # [21:25] <Hixie> e.g. wordpress, a big producer of microformats, is all hand-written templates
  974. # [21:26] <masinter> othermaciej: yes, that's what i expect too, so we agree
  975. # [21:26] <masinter> hmmm, hand-written templates... that sounds right
  976. # [21:26] <othermaciej> it sounded like you were pre-emptively mocking the conclusions as likely to be "grand", when no one had presented any conclusions
  977. # [21:26] <masinter> so template builders don't actually verify the metadata accuracy
  978. # [21:27] <hsivonen> masinter: someone hand authors the templates that are filled from a database
  979. # [21:27] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@89.56.56.210) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  980. # [21:27] <masinter> hsivonen: yes, that sounds reasonable. but then, the task of changing the metadata based on looking at the HTML wouldn't be the right test.
  981. # [21:27] <othermaciej> you want markup that someone can add to a template with low likelihood of messing up the syntax (relative to alternatives)
  982. # [21:28] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I'd posit that the power of Selectors makes it super-hard to make a WYSIWYG tool that ingests hand-written CSS
  983. # [21:28] <othermaciej> a test to make a template would probably be more confusing than a test to add some concrete microdata, and unlikely to give interestingly different conclusions
  984. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: I'd agree with that.
  985. # [21:28] <masinter> if the metadata is populated by filling in a template, then the production of the metadata would be split between the template writer, the author of the software that knows how to fill in the template, the user that fills in the template
  986. # [21:28] <othermaciej> hsivonen: are you saying this is a consequence of the wonderful hand-authorability of Selectors?
  987. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: I also wouldn't care, because Selectors are so awesome.
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  989. # [21:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: abstractions that help hand authoring are hard for stuff that crams that stuff into different abstractions
  990. # [21:30] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.108)
  991. # [21:30] <othermaciej> hsivonen: selectors of nontrivial complexity are hard to hand-author
  992. # [21:31] <hsivonen> how does OpenOffice.org expose RDFa in ODF in the UI?
  993. # [21:31] <othermaciej> I think the real tradeoff we are seeing here is language expressiveness vs. ability of tools to understand the language and express it in a GUI
  994. # [21:31] <masinter> it's great to do usability studies, and looking at hand authoring is fine, it's just that if there are limited resources to do them, doing usability studies that correspond the most important use cases would be really helpful
  995. # [21:31] * Hixie takes back what he said earlier about participants being able to extract data easily
  996. # [21:32] <Hixie> masinter: i encourage adobe to put up the resources to do usability studies for what you think is more important
  997. # [21:32] <masinter> that's a great rejoinder, of course
  998. # [21:32] <hsivonen> do adobe products expose a UI for arbitrary graphs in XMP?
  999. # [21:32] <othermaciej> masinter: if you have ideas for studies perhaps we can even find resources elsewhere
  1000. # [21:32] <Hixie> it's not meant as a rejoinder, i'm serious, it would be awesome if adobe could do usability studies
  1001. # [21:33] <masinter> hsivonen: I don't think so
  1002. # [21:33] <othermaciej> myself, I'm not inclined to criticize data gathering simply because there is other data we could have gathered
  1003. # [21:33] <masinter> Adobe mainly does WYSIWYG tools for designers
  1004. # [21:33] <masinter> and for the most part, Adobe customers could care less about the markup language and don't want to see it
  1005. # [21:34] <masinter> i'm sorry if it sounded like i was criticizing data gathering, i was just trying to be helpful
  1006. # [21:34] * TabAtkins wishes he can a bit more visibility into the markup language of PDFs, as he's been staring at a big problem for a while and Adobe tech support couldn't help him.
  1007. # [21:34] <hsivonen> masinter: what happens if a file comes in from a non-Adobe app and has a complex RDF graph in XMP?
  1008. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> s/can/could have/
  1009. # [21:35] <othermaciej> would you imagine any of Adobe's tools ever having UI to add metadata markup (either concrete or templates)?
  1010. # [21:35] <othermaciej> or is that something that would be left to be done after the fact by editing the tool's output?
  1011. # [21:36] <masinter> most adobe tools have UI to add and edit matadata, and to do template-based creation of metadata
  1012. # [21:36] <othermaciej> embedded metadata, or whole-document level metadata?
  1013. # [21:36] <masinter> and extensibility points for adding new menus, screens, user interfaces
  1014. # [21:36] <othermaciej> and if the former, what formats are supported?
  1015. # [21:36] <masinter> well, it depends on the product, maciej
  1016. # [21:37] <othermaciej> I'm asking because I wonder if there is anything we can do in the design of metadata markup to make it easier for WYSIWYG tools to apply it
  1017. # [21:37] <tantek> masinter, what formats in total (across any/all products)?
  1018. # [21:37] <masinter> lemme give you some references
  1019. # [21:37] <othermaciej> I can imagine building a template with a graphical tool and then producing pages using that template from a database is a likely scenario
  1020. # [21:38] * ap|away is now known as ap
  1021. # [21:38] <masinter> http://www.adobe.com/products/xmp/standards.html
  1022. # [21:38] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  1023. # [21:38] * TabAtkins finds Selectors absolutely trivial, and so is definitely not the guy you should ask about Selector usability.
  1024. # [21:39] * masinter is in a discussion in TAG meeting needs to get back, will send file format issue
  1025. # [21:39] <hsivonen> tantek: are you aware of WYSIWYGish tools that support DRY metadata in document body?
  1026. # [21:39] <othermaciej> so XMP is file-scope metadata?
  1027. # [21:39] <othermaciej> (if I'm reading this right)
  1028. # [21:40] * Quits: GPHemsley (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  1029. # [21:40] <hsivonen> having a WYSIWYG UI for DRY seems like a hard problem
  1030. # [21:40] <masinter> part 3 http://www.adobe.com/devnet/xmp/
  1031. # [21:40] <masinter> part 3 has file formats supported
  1032. # [21:41] <masinter> http://www.adobe.com/devnet/xmp/pdfs/XMP-FileInfo-SDK-Overview.pdf has info on how to customize application UI for wysiwyg interfaces for custom metadata
  1033. # [21:42] <masinter> PDF, InDesign and some other formats allow XMP inside embedded objects
  1034. # [21:43] <masinter> http://www.adobe.com/devnet/xmp/pdfs/DynamicMediaXMPPartnerGuide.pdf says it's about dynamic media (video & audio) but it actually is a general architecture for having embedded metadata for compound objects
  1035. # [21:43] <masinter> DRY = ??
  1036. # [21:43] <othermaciej> Don't Repeat Yourself
  1037. # [21:43] <masinter> tantek: file formats extensible, of course
  1038. # [21:44] * hsivonen wonder what app consume Illustrator-written metadata in SVG
  1039. # [21:44] <Hixie> well this study is going poorly
  1040. # [21:44] * tantek dislikes the term metadata as its often unnecessarily used (where "data" would do), and seems to encourage separation/duplication from the actual data (violations of DRY) and invisible metadata.
  1041. # [21:44] <hsivonen> (parts of it have a write-only flavor)
  1042. # [21:45] <tantek> here's a good blog post on the overuse of the term metadata (even/especially by CS types) http://blogs.fluidinfo.com/fluidDB/2009/09/05/metadata-vs-data-a-wholly-artificial-distinction/
  1043. # [21:45] <masinter> http://www.metadataworkinggroup.org/ working on integration of XMP with other legacy metadata formats for images & video (e.g., EXIF) so cameras can add metadata when the picture is taken
  1044. # [21:46] <Philip`> Everything is cooler when you call it meta
  1045. # [21:46] <tantek> Philip`: Everything is cooler when you call it Semantic
  1046. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> You can't spell Semantic without meta.
  1047. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> Also: You can't spell it without snic.
  1048. # [21:47] <Philip`> Clearly we need metasemantics
  1049. # [21:47] <Hixie> you can't spell Semantics without Antics
  1050. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> http://wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=semantic&t=1000&a=n
  1051. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> You can't spell semantic without ace mints.
  1052. # [21:49] <Hixie> wow, current participant is confusing me
  1053. # [21:50] <othermaciej> if you call something "metadata" instead of "data", sometimes people are less insistent on figuring out how it is useful and who will use it
  1054. # [21:50] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Because you can always use more metadata.
  1055. # [21:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: indeed, that's why i stopped calling things metadata a few months ago :-)
  1056. # [21:51] <masinter> i think calling it 'metadata' rather than 'data' narrows the focus usefully
  1057. # [21:51] <masinter> brb
  1058. # [21:55] <Hixie> ok well the current participant really had trouble with containership like hte one earlier today
  1059. # [21:55] <Hixie> but seemed to handle the itemtype="" idea reasonably well in the middle of all that
  1060. # [21:55] <tantek> Hixie - hierarchy is always difficult, even if it is just one level (containership)
  1061. # [21:55] <tantek> this is something we have learned from microformats experience as well, and as a result have worked on flattening various things
  1062. # [21:55] <Hixie> so it seems
  1063. # [21:56] <tantek> some of these changes are making it into hCard 1.0.1 and hCalendar 1.0.1
  1064. # [21:56] <tantek> also a big lesson: no required properties
  1065. # [21:56] <Hixie> the one earlier today said that the variant 003 idea of using itemscope="" actually made things easier
  1066. # [21:56] <tantek> this is a tough one for semantic/formats-heads
  1067. # [21:56] <Hixie> which i found interesting
  1068. # [21:56] <tantek> its is the direct OPPOSITE of draconian handling methodology
  1069. # [21:56] <Hixie> like, he didn't get <div item> at all, but once we had <div itemscope>, suddenly he was much happier with it
  1070. # [21:58] <tantek> Hixie - that kind of terminology specific result depends *heavily* on the background of the person
  1071. # [21:58] <tantek> (I know this from seeing similar results (vt widely varying - from numerous people in classroom settings )
  1072. # [21:58] <tantek> so another person will be much happier with "item" who has no idea what "scope" means
  1073. # [21:59] <tantek> don't get me wrong - i'm happy to see you are doing this study and gathering data from it
  1074. # [21:59] <tantek> it's quite useful to have various experiences confirmed by study etc.
  1075. # [22:01] <hsivonen> wow. http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/amazon.com
  1076. # [22:01] <othermaciej> looks fine to me
  1077. # [22:01] <Philip`> To me too
  1078. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> Me too.
  1079. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> So, it's down for just them?
  1080. # [22:02] <tantek> maybe amazon blocked them?
  1081. # [22:02] <hsivonen> amazon times out for me
  1082. # [22:03] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  1083. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> Huh. Chrome and FF agree on rendering this table-* example wrong.
  1084. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> Well, maybe form elements aren't allowed to be display:table-cell.
  1085. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> Which would explain things.
  1086. # [22:06] <TabAtkins> Well, it wouldn't explain FF's behavior, but it's a *really* big table.
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  1100. # [23:03] <Lachy> JohnResig, yt?
  1101. # [23:07] <Lachy> I'll respond to your mail in more detail later, but I think you've failed to see just how flexible my proposal for selectors api actually is. In fact, it seems to address most, if not all, of your needs for the API, including scoped selectors and collective queries on node lists
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  1110. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> Jeezus, it seems 1 in 5 sites on the web use jQuery. Of the ones that actually use js, 1 in 3 are using jquery. (I guess that means 60% of all sites on the web are using js in some way?)
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  1121. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, I'd believe that 1 in 5 web page *views* use jQuery, but there's a *really* long tail if you count by sites.
  1122. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> I'm just going by the stats cited by Resig & co during some recent talks.
  1123. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> So that may be views, dunno.
  1124. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> And yeah, given the number of pages Hixie bandies about (1 trillion), that's a *very* long tail.
  1125. # [23:46] <tantek> pages != views
  1126. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> But then again, sites != pages either.
  1127. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> http://ejohn.org/blog/talks-at-the-2009-jquery-conference/ "State of jQuery '09", slide 16
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  1130. # Session Close: Sat Sep 26 00:00:00 2009

The end :)