/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 01 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:04] <zcorpan_> www2.solomoto.es/enviar-noticia.asp?noti=44557&pag=noticia has the same snippet as grandparents.com
  4. # [00:06] <zcorpan_> me.yaplog.jp/viewBoard.blog?boardId=975 breaks too
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  8. # [00:17] <zcorpan_> maybe the parser should look at "document.write" instead
  9. # [00:18] <zcorpan_> and ignore "</script" until the next ")"
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  12. # [00:28] <zcorpan_> hmm, i guess that would break pages that put the string in a variable and then do document.write(str)
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  16. # [00:29] <Philip`> And pages that do var w=document.write; w("str")
  17. # [00:30] <Philip`> and it'd be an incredibly gross hack
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  21. # [00:41] <zcorpan_> ok time to sleep
  22. # [00:41] <zcorpan_> nn
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  31. # [00:57] <hober> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/att-1216/MicrosoftDistributedExtensibilitySubmission.htm
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  33. # [01:00] <othermaciej> time for someone to dig up Opera's old data
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  36. # [01:06] <Philip`> "The proposal as stated closely matches behavior that Internet Explorer has had for a number of releases"
  37. # [01:06] <Philip`> That seems untrue
  38. # [01:06] <Philip`> because e.g. IE has never had proper Namespace-like DOM attributes
  39. # [01:08] <othermaciej> probably worth pointing out
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  43. # [01:31] * Philip` wonders what the proportion of facts vs namespace religion will be
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  46. # [01:33] * Philip` won't point out obvious mistakes like the failure to use a URI as the namespace attribute value
  47. # [01:41] * Philip` likes how he finally has enough RAM to run three web browsers at once, plus a virtual machine with Windows and another five web browsers, without anything slowing down noticeably
  48. # [01:48] * tantek thinks the proposal is one of the more hilarious things he's seen on the public-html list in quite some time.
  49. # [01:48] <tantek> s/distributed extensibility/proprietary extensibility/
  50. # [01:48] <tantek> for more humor value (and perhaps even "truer" statements)
  51. # [01:49] * tantek is resisting the temptation to write a massive "bitch-slap" (technical term) email to public-html in response to the proposal. (Microsoft people ought to know better)
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  55. # [01:54] <Philip`> tantek: Please do resist, it doesn't sound like it would contribute to productive discussion :-p
  56. # [01:55] * GarethAdams|Home is now known as GarethAdams|Bed
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  58. # [02:00] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
  59. # [02:01] * Philip` reads a bit further
  60. # [02:02] <Philip`> The scripting and CSS examples seem crazy - why would you want to process/style elements based solely on their namespace?
  61. # [02:02] * tantek resists by attempting to focus on higher priority things.
  62. # [02:03] <tantek> Philip` - in this case another way of saying 'crazy' is 'completely made up and unrelated to any real world practice', what we in #microformats call "purely theoretical" and handily dismiss as not worth discussing.
  63. # [02:04] <Philip`> "The proposal is made in a modular way so that any components causing unacceptable compatibility concerns could be abandoned." - indeed, we can just abandon the entire thing and tell people never to touch elements or attributes containing the character ':' because it's a compatibility nightmare
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  70. # [02:14] <othermaciej> Philip`: it would be useful to do have test data on attributes too
  71. # [02:18] <othermaciej> how do you get at HTTP headers in PHP?
  72. # [02:18] <othermaciej> (sorry for asking all my dumb PHP questions here)
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  74. # [02:25] <Philip`> othermaciej: Like that? [on list]
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  76. # [02:26] <othermaciej> Philip`: namespaces don't have that tagUrn property in IE?
  77. # [02:26] <othermaciej> er, attributes rather
  78. # [02:26] <othermaciej> Philip`: does the Microsoft proposal specify how xmlns:foo attributes should look in the DOM?
  79. # [02:27] <othermaciej> Philip`: that might be another good thing to test
  80. # [02:27] <Philip`> othermaciej: $_SERVER['HTTP_UPPERCASED_HEADER_NAME'] perhaps?
  81. # [02:27] <othermaciej> Philip`: thank you sir
  82. # [02:27] <Philip`> othermaciej: IE doesn't do any namespace processing of attributes at all, so tagUrn is always just undefined
  83. # [02:27] <othermaciej> I neglected to uppercase
  84. # [02:28] <Philip`> (so I excluded it from the email)
  85. # [02:28] <othermaciej> Philip`: might be good to state that, since it's sort of the substitute namespaceURI for elements
  86. # [02:28] <Philip`> I don't think they say anything about xmlns:foo, but all text/html treat it identically to any other attribute with or without a colon
  87. # [02:28] <Philip`> s/treat/browsers treat/
  88. # [02:30] * Philip` won't bother sending another email to state anything now, since it seems better to go to bed
  89. # [02:31] <Philip`> (Also, most of this stuff has been discussed years ago anyway)
  90. # [02:31] <Philip`> (xmlns-dom.html was 1.5 years old)
  91. # [02:33] <Philip`> (Also the details don't seem too important when their claim of IE compatibility appears to be fundamentally bogus)
  92. # [02:33] * Philip` goes to bed, and will try to predict how many "+1" responses the proposal gets by tomorrow
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  201. # [08:28] <hsivonen> tantek: please do write your concerns about what is wrong with the "decentralized extensibility" proposal to the list
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  220. # [10:12] <tantek> hsivonen - in short, the justifications provided for "decentralized extensibility" in Microsoft's proposal are either theoretical, solved by other mechanisms in HTML5, or are a poor rationalization for what amounts to proprietary extensions, which are known to be bad, and thus should be discouraged as far as standard formats are concerned.
  221. # [10:12] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0059487989-4a-62.client.student.harvard.edu) ("Leaving...")
  222. # [10:12] <Hixie> i encourage you to post that to the list, i think most people on the list are desensitised to me and henri saying this by now
  223. # [10:13] <Philip`> Hixie: You need a sock puppet
  224. # [10:14] <tantek> perhaps in the (PDT) morning, time for me to sleep on it.
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  241. # [10:51] <hsivonen> are iframes supposed to delay the onload event of the parent?
  242. # [10:51] <zcorpan_> yes
  243. # [10:51] * Parts: annevk2 (n=annevk@213.236.208.22)
  244. # [10:51] <hsivonen> ok
  245. # [10:52] <zcorpan_> "When there is an active parser in the iframe, and when anything in the iframe is delaying the load event of the iframe's browsing context's active document, the iframe must delay the load event of its document."
  246. # [10:52] <hsivonen> so, on on both www.aol.com and www.cnn.com I see more things trying to unblock onload than blocking onload
  247. # [10:52] <hsivonen> and on www.aol.com I see attempts to unblock onload periodically
  248. # [10:53] <zcorpan_> how do you unblock onload?
  249. # [10:53] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@213.236.208.22)
  250. # [10:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I mean internal onload unblocking code
  251. # [10:53] <zcorpan_> ah
  252. # [10:54] * hsivonen goes set a breakpoint to catch the periodic thing
  253. # [10:55] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i did some research on <script><!-- yesterday
  254. # [10:55] <hsivonen> ha! I have innerHTML setter accidentally unblocking onload
  255. # [10:55] * hsivonen wonders how innerHTML itself and images inserted by innerHTML should interact with onload
  256. # [10:56] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  257. # [10:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: did you manage to disqualify any proposals?
  258. # [10:56] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: yes
  259. # [10:56] <hsivonen> cool
  260. # [10:56] <Philip`> All of them?
  261. # [10:57] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  262. # [10:57] <hsivonen> so proposal 3 is the only one not marked as FAIL
  263. # [10:57] <zcorpan_> Philip`: i think proposal #3 breaks the least out of the lot
  264. # [10:57] <zcorpan_> but it still breaks some pages
  265. # [10:58] <hsivonen> intuitively, proposal 3 scares me more than what's specced now
  266. # [10:58] <jgraham> hsivonen: Why?
  267. # [10:58] * jgraham doesn't really like any of the proposals
  268. # [10:58] <hsivonen> jgraham: proposal 3 breaks random sites out there
  269. # [10:58] <zcorpan_> what's specced now breaks more sites out there :)
  270. # [10:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: what's currently been reported about the spec is that it breaks one developer-oriented tool and one attempt of writing test cases
  271. # [10:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ok. no one has bothered to note the other sites broken by the spec on bugzilla.mozilla.org
  272. # [10:59] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: what's specced now also breaks all of these http://philip.html5.org/data/script-close-in-escape-without-script-open-2.txt
  273. # [10:59] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt)
  274. # [11:00] <hsivonen> ooh. scary.
  275. # [11:00] <Philip`> I propose getting rid of <script>
  276. # [11:00] <zcorpan_> proposal #3 only breaks 3 sites in there or so
  277. # [11:00] <hsivonen> //--><!--</script>
  278. # [11:00] <hsivonen> that's pattern is so, so, sad
  279. # [11:01] * Philip` wonders if reparsing is really so bad, given that everybody does it
  280. # [11:02] <hsivonen> what are people thinking when they finish their script not with //--> but with //--><!--
  281. # [11:02] * jgraham wonders the same as Philip`
  282. # [11:02] <zcorpan_> they are clearly confused by all the comment tags "//", "<!--" and "-->" so don't know when to use which
  283. # [11:03] <zcorpan_> and it doesn't matter because it all works in browsers today
  284. # [11:03] * Quits: lazni (n=lazni@123.16.228.7) ("Leaving.")
  285. # [11:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan_, Philip`: thanks for analyzing the proposals
  286. # [11:05] <zcorpan_> maybe we also need to look at pages that do have <script inside escaped text span, too
  287. # [11:06] <zcorpan_> to find pages with the second kind of breakage of #3
  288. # [11:06] <Philip`> hsivonen: I blame Hixie, for writing a document that suggests <script><!--//--><![CDATA[//><!-- ...
  289. # [11:07] <Philip`> thus causing people to completely give up all hope of understanding commenting, and to just randomly insert comment characters until it works
  290. # [11:07] <zcorpan_> oh right, i forgot the other two comment tags "<![CDATA[" and "]]>"
  291. # [11:08] * gsnedders calls theoretical on the whole security hole Hixie worries about here
  292. # [11:08] <hsivonen> Philip`: we have a problem with debating complexity on the Web
  293. # [11:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: if you say that something is impossible, you are wrong, but if you show that the possibility is ridiculously complex, there's always someone who copies and pastes it
  294. # [11:10] <hsivonen> it's like every complex piece of badness is an attractive nuisance
  295. # [11:10] * jgraham suggests that the whoile situation would have been much simpler if <!-- --> just indicated a comment in an inline script block from the start
  296. # [11:11] <Philip`> hsivonen: Maybe we should convert any demonstrations of ridiculous complexity into images rather than text, so people can't copy-and-paste and fewer will manually type it all out
  297. # [11:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: that would be inaccessible
  298. # [11:12] <zcorpan_> Philip`: just do ondragstart="return false"
  299. # [11:12] <jgraham> (since HTML-aware text editors tend to be insuffciently HTML-aware to make their comment function notice that it is working in a script block rather than in some random HTML
  300. # [11:12] <jgraham> hsivonen: Not with alt text
  301. # [11:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: also, consider all the typos people would make when typing it
  302. # [11:13] * hsivonen assumed alt text got copied
  303. # [11:13] <jgraham> But people won't expect it to work when they can't select it
  304. # [11:14] <jgraham> (well I know you can select images but people generally wouldn't select an image of text expecting the alt text to be the text)
  305. # [11:16] <Philip`> hsivonen: The inaccessibility has to be balanced against the humanity of not subjecting screen reader users to a spoken version of <script><!--//--><![CDATA[//><!--
  306. # [11:20] <hsivonen> now that I've seen what kind of browser bugs are possible with innerHTML during load, innerHTML during load scares me a bit even for cases that aren't browser bugs
  307. # [11:25] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  308. # [11:25] * Philip` wonders why Laurens Holst picked, of all the legitimate examples of insane complexities in HTML5, one that is actually very simple in HTML and is only confusing because of promotion of XHTML-as-text/html
  309. # [11:29] * hsivonen wonders if Julian programs with namespaces, writes namespace-wise correct code and likes the experience
  310. # [11:33] <hsivonen> Yay. I fixed the innerHTML setting during load issue
  311. # [11:33] <hsivonen> It worries me that even the fix was non-obvious
  312. # [11:36] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  313. # [11:37] <Philip`> hsivonen: You don't necessarily have to like the experience of working with namespaces, you just have to not dislike it enough to counteract the benefits
  314. # [11:37] <hsivonen> Philip`: good point.
  315. # [11:37] <hsivonen> I rank the benefits the be negative.
  316. # [11:38] <Philip`> That sounds like a type error
  317. # [11:38] <Philip`> Benefits are by definition positive :-p
  318. # [11:38] <Philip`> s/positive/non-negative/
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  322. # [12:00] <mookid> anyone got any recommendations on web based open source scrum tools (preferably LAMP stack)?
  323. # [12:01] * Philip` doesn't know many open source rugby simulators
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  331. # [12:37] * hsivonen wonders why texts that discuss multithreading don't explain how the multiple runtime stacks are typically laid out in the address space of the process
  332. # [12:38] <hsivonen> while texts that discuss processes commonly mention the address layout of the stack and the heap
  333. # [12:39] * Quits: benward (n=benward@98.210.154.133) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  334. # [12:40] <Philip`> Is there much to discuss?
  335. # [12:40] <hsivonen> Philip`: saying how they are laid out
  336. # [12:40] <Philip`> I thought it was just like thread n has a stack at base-n*max_stack_size and that's about it and otherwise it's the same as a single-threaded process
  337. # [12:40] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12)
  338. # [12:41] <hsivonen> Philip`: well, that's the bit that usually goes unmentioned
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  340. # [12:41] <hsivonen> btw, what mechanism is there to prevent a stack longer than max_stack_size overwriting the next stack?
  341. # [12:42] <Philip`> You could put a non-writable page between stacks
  342. # [12:42] <hsivonen> OK
  343. # [12:42] <Philip`> Don't know whether that happens in practice, though
  344. # [12:43] <hsivonen> well, that's the thing. it's easy to solve these problems in theory, but no one ever says how they are solved in real systems
  345. # [12:43] <Philip`> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.1.2/gnat_ugn_unw/Stack-Overflow-Checking.html - "For most operating systems, gcc does not perform stack overflow checking by default."
  346. # [12:45] <hsivonen> generating additional instructions seems worse than wasting a page of virtual address space
  347. # [12:45] <Philip`> (I expect you'd get a segmentation fault though, since the stack would extend into unallocated address space)
  348. # [12:45] <Philip`> (in the single-threaded case)
  349. # [12:51] <Philip`> Anyway, just don't overflow your stack and it'll all be fine :-)
  350. # [12:52] <Philip`> (and certainly don't use recursive functions)
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  376. # [14:42] <annevk2> if anyone knows a more correct Unicode symbol for average than x̅ please let know
  377. # [14:42] <annevk2> x̅ doesn't look quite right and is somewhat of a hack I suppose
  378. # [14:44] <jgraham> Is that supposed to be x with a line on top?
  379. # [14:44] <jgraham> If so that is one of two common ways I can think of of prepresenting average
  380. # [14:44] <jgraham> the other being <x>
  381. # [14:44] * Joins: roc (n=roc@115.130.51.133)
  382. # [14:44] <Philip`> I suggest using more than one symbol, such as "mean(x)"
  383. # [14:45] <Philip`> which has the bonus that it doesn't like identical to "x" in my IRC client
  384. # [14:45] <jgraham> Philip`: It depends what you are trying to do
  385. # [14:45] <jgraham> If you are writing an equation <x> or so is nicer
  386. # [14:46] <Philip`> If I was writing an equation I'd write something like \xbar
  387. # [14:47] <Philip`> (rather than trying to do it with Unicode)
  388. # [14:48] <annevk2> see http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/10/tirsdagspils for the use case
  389. # [14:48] <annevk2> jgraham, i.e. &lt;x> in HTML?
  390. # [14:49] * jgraham assumes that it is not possible to do something like \overline{x^2} using pure unicode
  391. # [14:49] <Philip`> annevk2: Just write "average" or "avg" or "mean"
  392. # [14:49] <jgraham> annevk2: Yeah. There are maybe "more proper" symbols to use than < and >
  393. # [14:50] <Philip`> The mathematical symbols don't seem to make sense in this context
  394. # [14:50] <Philip`> e.g. because you're never defining what 'x' is
  395. # [14:50] * jgraham wonders what the context is
  396. # [14:50] <Philip`> jgraham: See annevk2's link
  397. # [14:51] <jgraham> Oh, I missed that
  398. # [14:51] <jgraham> Obviously
  399. # [14:52] <jgraham> Yeah, what Philip` said
  400. # [14:52] <jgraham> You should say "mean" or something if you want to be precise
  401. # [14:53] <Philip`> You could show the mean, median and standard deviation, to make sure people have enough information to make a good decision
  402. # [14:53] <annevk2> lame
  403. # [14:54] <annevk2> but thanks
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  411. # [15:16] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
  412. # [15:17] * annevk2 files more bugs
  413. # [15:18] <zcorpan_> annevk2: xml:lang?
  414. # [15:19] <annevk2> zcorpan_, guess my post-processor is not doing its job everywhere
  415. # [15:19] <annevk2> I should fix some of these things I suppose
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  482. # [15:43] <annevk2> does anyone recall whether Hixie wanted bugs on normal text referencing impl-protected text?
  483. # [15:44] <annevk2> e.g. the definitions of the constants for the appcache API do that a lot
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  485. # [15:45] <zcorpan_> annevk2: i think he doesn't want bugs on that
  486. # [15:48] <annevk2> k
  487. # [15:49] * annevk2 feels a little bad for filing all these bugs now
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  498. # [16:14] <annevk2> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/09/HTMLIssuesRevised.pdf
  499. # [16:14] <annevk2> (from an Excel file?!)
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  501. # [16:16] <Philip`> It's really terrible that people might use a spreadsheet program to write a spreadsheet
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  504. # [16:16] <annevk2> agreed
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  506. # [16:17] <hsivonen> annevk2: what's "?!" about Excel?
  507. # [16:18] <annevk2> surprise
  508. # [16:19] <hsivonen> so each TAG member assigned number of beans per issue
  509. # [16:19] <hsivonen> and the number can be > 1
  510. # [16:19] <hsivonen> and there's no clear bean maximum
  511. # [16:19] <annevk2> I wasn't quite sure how the number game worked
  512. # [16:20] <Philip`> Maybe the implicit maximum is 10, but if you want you can turn it up to 11
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  514. # [16:21] <hsivonen> hmm. TimBL gave 4 beans to RDF triples but otherwise only one other TAG member gave a bean
  515. # [16:22] <hsivonen> at least the XPath thing got 0 beans
  516. # [16:22] <Philip`> Are the ones in purple magic beans?
  517. # [16:23] <hsivonen> hmm. lack of doc.write in XML got a bean
  518. # [16:25] <hsivonen> what does issue 7 (relationship of DOM & serialization) entail?
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  520. # [16:26] <Philip`> That document indicates no TAG member wants to look for positive feedback
  521. # [16:26] <Philip`> hsivonen: Maybe that was the disabled=banana thing?
  522. # [16:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: disabled=banana is issue 13
  523. # [16:28] <Philip`> hsivonen: That's what the layout indicates, but Henry's question seemed to be about issue 7
  524. # [16:29] <Philip`> (particularly about what DOM you get from the serialisation disabled="banana")
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  527. # [16:32] <Philip`> The interaction of prefix binding and table foster-parenting seems like a really boring issue
  528. # [16:32] <Philip`> since there's only one way it can possibly work that is not totally insane
  529. # [16:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: I hope we have the same idea of what isn't totally insane
  530. # [16:34] <Philip`> Anything that depends on the source characters, not on the parsed DOM, is totally insane
  531. # [16:34] <hsivonen> good
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  547. # [17:05] * Philip` wonders if there's a good JS editor plugin for Eclipse
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  555. # [17:39] <Dashiva> Great game: http://www.stfj.net/art/2009/loselose/
  556. # [17:42] <TabAtkins> Heh, interesting.
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  559. # [17:43] <Philip`> Sadly its deep meaning is rendered futile by virtual machine snapshots that remove all possible consequences
  560. # [17:43] <TabAtkins> Actually, that just brings up further existential questions revolving around simulation and the consequences of Singularity.
  561. # [17:44] <TabAtkins> Is it truly killing if there is an exact copy that can be restored? How can we modify our ethics to handle this situation consistently?
  562. # [17:46] <Philip`> http://home.wildit.net.au/hellohelloben/mystery.html is a game with far more morally serious and unavoidable life-and-death consequences
  563. # [17:47] <Dashiva> The opening screen doesn't make me want to press start
  564. # [17:47] <TabAtkins> Are we doing something unethical when we create simulated life while talking with someone (modeling them mentally to predict reactions)? What about when a hyperintelligent AI is able to simulate us to arbitrary precision while talking to us, then deleting the simulations when done?
  565. # [17:48] <Philip`> Dashiva: It's one of the games of decade, according to http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/eurogamer-editors-games-of-the-decade-article?page=3
  566. # [17:49] <TabAtkins> Oh jeezus haploid christ.
  567. # [17:50] <Philip`> TabAtkins: If I delete all the files on your hard disk and you have a backup, does that mean I didn't really delete all the files on your hard disk?
  568. # [17:50] <TabAtkins> Philip`, ethically, did you? What if those files are sapient entities? Did you commit murder?
  569. # [17:51] * Philip` is reminded of Glasshouse, where everyone has backups of themselves, and murder is common but considered a far less serious crime than identity theft
  570. # [17:51] * TabAtkins liked that book.
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  572. # [17:52] <TabAtkins> Though that only barely touches on the issues of identity and existence in the face of simulation.
  573. # [17:53] <Philip`> The existence of backups doesn't change the definition of "murder", it just changes how much we care about it and how much effort we put into trying to stop it
  574. # [17:54] <Philip`> which are much more concrete ideas than the concept of 'ethics'
  575. # [17:54] <Dashiva> But you lose everything since the latest backup
  576. # [17:54] <TabAtkins> Hmm? Ethics are vitally important when you're talking about the possibility of an action being duplicated across trillions or more conscious entities in a moment.
  577. # [17:55] <TabAtkins> Such as in the simulation spaces of a hyperintelligent AI.
  578. # [17:55] <Philip`> Dashiva: Well, you need to work out a decent backup schedule
  579. # [17:55] <TabAtkins> Is it ethical to torture someone to death if you can restore them back to before the torture started with no memories of it?
  580. # [17:55] <Philip`> Knowing most people, they wouldn't actually back themselves up until they'd already been killed, and then it'd be too late
  581. # [17:56] <Dashiva> The real question is how they do the reanimation
  582. # [17:56] <TabAtkins> (I'd like to say no, but I'm honestly not sure if that's correct, given that it's only an issue of computation resources that distinguishes the poor copies of others I create in my mind and copies that are functionally indistinguishable from real people.)
  583. # [17:57] <TabAtkins> (And I don't think it's unethical to torture a mental image. Probably.)
  584. # [17:57] <Dashiva> In associated news: Squids are one of the four fundamental forces of the universe, alongside the Weak Force, the Strong Force and Gravity.
  585. # [17:57] <Philip`> Dungeon Keeper had a torture chamber
  586. # [17:57] <Philip`> That was a fun game, so I'll decide it's not unethical
  587. # [17:57] <TabAtkins> This is your fault, Dashiva.
  588. # [17:58] <TabAtkins> Philip`, I'll see if you change your mind when the AI who is executing this universe in its mind decides to torture everyone to death.
  589. # [17:59] <Dashiva> Actually, lose/lose reminds me of Only You Can Save Mankind
  590. # [17:59] <Philip`> Also your cursor was a Hand of Evil, and you could slap all your imps
  591. # [18:00] * TabAtkins has fond memories of being an evil god in Black and White.
  592. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> My people led a life of unrestricted hedonism, as long as they were willing to give me about half their babies.
  593. # [18:01] <Philip`> Dashiva: I always wanted a copy of the real-time journey-to-alpha-centauri game from that
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  596. # [18:04] <TabAtkins> Philip`, go get one. It's just a few jumps from the Wikipedia article.
  597. # [18:05] <Philip`> TabAtkins: I stopped wanting it about ten years ago :-p
  598. # [18:05] <TabAtkins> Hehe.
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  655. # [19:34] <Fernandos> hi
  656. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> yo
  657. # [19:35] <Fernandos> can someone help me debugging a site made with basic html5
  658. # [19:35] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  659. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> Possibly. Shoot us the link.
  660. # [19:35] <Fernandos> http://fif-moebel.de
  661. # [19:36] <Fernandos> I get 3 errors which make no sense to me.
  662. # [19:36] <Fernandos> I doubt the validator is wrong http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Ffif-moebel.de%2F&showimagereport=yes
  663. # [19:36] <Fernandos> I thought <meta http-equiv="language" content="de" /> is correct and neccessary for seo
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  665. # [19:37] <Fernandos> I used media query like media="speech" with a speech stylesheet
  666. # [19:37] <Fernandos> but it tells me that is an invalid media query.
  667. # [19:37] <Fernandos> I know it was aural before and now it is speech, whyever..
  668. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> CSS2 changed it from aural to speech, but it's possible that HTML didn't update itself.
  669. # [19:38] <Fernandos> last thing, <meta http-equiv="pics-Label"... is correct but why does it tell me it's an error?
  670. # [19:39] <Fernandos> I know it's all a working draft some even just experimental, but hey html5 is not alpha software
  671. # [19:39] <Fernandos> I respect the work you do and it's government grade quality or higher in usual.
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  674. # [19:41] <Fernandos> any ideas
  675. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> Hmm.
  676. # [19:42] <Philip`> Fernandos: You might want http-equiv="content-language" instead
  677. # [19:42] <gsnedders> Only a few meta elements are allowed, almost all are ignored anyway.
  678. # [19:42] <Philip`> though that should give a warning telling you to use <html lang="de"> instead
  679. # [19:43] <Philip`> (See http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/semantics.html#attr-meta-http-equiv-content-language )
  680. # [19:43] <Fernandos> Philip`: I just removed http-equiv="content-language" because it told me it is obsolete
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  682. # [19:44] <Fernandos> I already use <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="de">
  683. # [19:45] <Philip`> HTML5 only allows a handful of http-equiv values, plus anything that's on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/PragmaExtensions
  684. # [19:45] <Philip`> I don't know whether pics-label satisfies the criteria to be added to that page
  685. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> The media=speech issue seems to be a validator bug. HTML5 references MQ, which says that "speech" should be a recognized value.
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  687. # [19:46] <Philip`> http://about.validator.nu/#reporting-bugs for validator bugs
  688. # [19:46] <Fernandos> TabAtkins: indeed. but the pics-label?
  689. # [19:46] <Fernandos> which is the official html5 validator?
  690. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> Fernandos: See Philip`'s response.
  691. # [19:47] <Philip`> Fernandos: There is no official HTML5 validator
  692. # [19:47] <Philip`> The idea is to encourage competition between validators, rather than blessing one as 'official'
  693. # [19:47] <Philip`> (though there's only one proper implementation so far)
  694. # [19:49] <Fernandos> that is?
  695. # [19:51] <Philip`> That implementation is used by validator.nu and validator.w3.org
  696. # [19:52] <webben> pics-label might be worth allowing
  697. # [19:52] <webben> only a few bits of software support it
  698. # [19:52] <webben> but one of them is MS Content Advisor.
  699. # [19:52] <webben> i read up about this a while back
  700. # [19:53] <webben> and apparently if you turn on Content Advisor and then don't configure it, it blocks webpages without the pics-label
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  702. # [19:53] <webben> otoh you /can/ also just use the HTTP header so I guess it depends on how convenient one wants it to be.
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  704. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> Filed a bug on the validator flagging media=speech as invalid.
  705. # [19:57] <Fernandos> thx TabAtkins
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  734. # [21:00] <Philip`> Hmm, a microsoft.com comment on the canvas API
  735. # [21:01] <Philip`> Clearly a great opportunity to read too much into the existence of an email
  736. # [21:01] <Philip`> (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2009OctDec/0000.html for those not subscribed there)
  737. # [21:01] <TabAtkins> Never pass up an opportunity to misinterpret something.
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  741. # [21:08] <zcorpan_> (?i)<script[^>]*>([^<]|<(?!/script[\s/>]))*<!--([^-]|-(?!->))*<script[\s/>]([^-]|-(?!->))*</script[\s/>]
  742. # [21:09] <zcorpan_> script close in escape *with* script open
  743. # [21:09] <zcorpan_> Philip`: any chance you could take that regexp for a ride? :)
  744. # [21:09] * zcorpan_ hopes he got the regexp right
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  791. # [22:30] <zcorpan_> " I think the HTML5 way of incorporating
  792. # [22:30] <zcorpan_> SVG and MathML is less magic in the sense that there are no spells for
  793. # [22:30] <zcorpan_> the author to cast." -- http://markmail.org/message/uywp4yfc4lvz6erd
  794. # [22:30] <zcorpan_> heh
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  801. # [22:46] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: shouldn't the html5 dom viewer hide the Uhhhhhh syntax from the user?
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  803. # [22:47] <zcorpan_> hmm maybe not, since it would be hard to figure out why scripts don't work as intended
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  806. # [22:49] <zcorpan_> "Namespaces in HTML5" wouldn't make any sense, because HTML5 is layered on top of DOM Level 2 which is layered on top of Namespaces in XML which is layered on top of XML
  807. # [22:49] <zcorpan_> so Namespaces in HTML5 would have to violate layering and completely change HTML5's parsing rules
  808. # [22:49] <zcorpan_> if it's supposed to change namespaceURI of elements parsed from text/html
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  810. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> It's an exciting new form of Namespaces.
  811. # [22:52] <zcorpan_> <com.netscape.blink> form of namespaces could be layered on top of HTML5
  812. # [22:52] <zcorpan_> but that wouldn't change parsing or namespaceURI
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  814. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> I have no idea why poor-man's namespaces is so unacceptable. It's easy and wonderful and great.
  815. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> I mean, I'm unbelievably frightened of a <calendar> element appearing in a Microsoft proposal. There will be something crazy like Outlook integration involved there. But <com.microsoft.calendar>? That seems downright sensible.
  816. # [22:57] <zcorpan_> doesn't ie8 also have a restriction that you can't use xmlns on elements whose tag name happens to match a known html tag name (like "table")?
  817. # [22:57] <Philip`> "Namespaces in XML" only works because everybody implements a Namespaces in XML processor, and nobody implements a plain XML processor
  818. # [22:58] <Philip`> so there's interoperability
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  820. # [22:58] <Philip`> It'd be a nightmare if half the people implemented Namespaces in XML, and half didn't, and you had to write hacky scripts to parse raw xmlns:* attributes to get consistent application behaviour
  821. # [22:58] <zcorpan_> indeed
  822. # [22:59] <zcorpan_> the xml core wg should really merge those two specs, and remove the vanilla XML profile
  823. # [22:59] <zcorpan_> and the external subset
  824. # [22:59] <zcorpan_> and define more default entities
  825. # [23:00] <Philip`> I assume it originally made sense because they wanted to push XML to REC before finishing the Namespaces design
  826. # [23:00] <Philip`> but the layering seems potentially harmful from a technical perspective
  827. # [23:00] <Philip`> and therefore not a good thing to emulate
  828. # [23:00] <zcorpan_> and maybe move back to 4th ed productions, because 5th ed breaks with the rest of the toolchain so no-one wants to implement it
  829. # [23:02] <jgraham> But apart from that verything is good
  830. # [23:03] <virtuelv> the one bit about zcorpan_'s proposal that worries me is "define more default entities"
  831. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> I like entities...
  832. # [23:03] <Philip`> I like parsers that don't have hundred-kilobyte entity lookup tables
  833. # [23:03] * jgraham cannot believe that we are still having the "should we include XML-style namespaces in HTML even though a large fraction of the people that deal with them in XML hate them" discussion
  834. # [23:03] <zcorpan_> virtuelv: either that or define magic FPIs like browsers do
  835. # [23:04] <zcorpan_> virtuelv: personally i'm fine with either but more default entities would be more author-friendly
  836. # [23:04] <jgraham> Philip`: It seems like a small, seldom paid cost
  837. # [23:04] <zcorpan_> i still don't understand why we have the mathml entities at all
  838. # [23:05] <zcorpan_> Hixie thought it was a simple thing to add them to text/html, so he just went ahead and did so?
  839. # [23:05] <jgraham> virtuelv: Shouldn't you be asleep or something?
  840. # [23:06] <zcorpan_> why did the mathml wg mint the entities in the first place?
  841. # [23:06] <jgraham> (at least I assume you are being woken up all night)
  842. # [23:06] <jgraham> zcorpan_: LaTeX
  843. # [23:06] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I expect they're necessary for the use-case of copy-and-pasting MathML markup (that currently exists, or is generated by current tools) into HTML
  844. # [23:07] <zcorpan_> jgraham: what about it?
  845. # [23:07] <zcorpan_> Philip`: i thought the main use case was to enable math input in a blog and have the blog software emit mathml markup
  846. # [23:08] <jgraham> zcorpan_: People who expect to author MathML by hand don't want to spend their whole life looking up the unmemorable codepoint for "counter clockwise contour integral"
  847. # [23:08] <jgraham> when they have already learnt the latex code for it
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  849. # [23:08] <jgraham> so instead you make the LaTeX code work in HTML
  850. # [23:08] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  851. # [23:08] <jgraham> well in MathML
  852. # [23:09] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  853. # [23:09] <zcorpan_> but you don't write mathml by hand
  854. # [23:09] <zcorpan_> you write latex
  855. # [23:09] <jgraham> zcorpan_: I'm not sure that the MathML working group would agree with that position
  856. # [23:10] <jgraham> (actually since I have written MathML by hnd, I'm not sure I would agree with that position either. But I can't say the experience is one I will be looking to repeat)
  857. # [23:10] <zcorpan_> i've written mathml by hand, too
  858. # [23:11] <zcorpan_> i'm not going to do it again, either
  859. # [23:11] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Not many people have blog software that supports MathML, and more have e.g. Microsoft Word which can export equations as MathML
  860. # [23:11] <zcorpan_> Philip`: does Word emit mathml entities?
  861. # [23:12] <Philip`> zcorpan_: If I remember correctly, no
  862. # [23:12] <zcorpan_> are there any other commonly-used tools that emit mathml with entities?
  863. # [23:13] <Philip`> <mml:math xmlns:mml="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML" xmlns:m="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/math"><mml:msup><mml:mrow><mml:mi>e</mml:mi></mml:mrow><mml:mrow><mml:mi mathvariant="italic">iπ</mml:mi></mml:mrow></mml:msup></mml:math>
  864. # [23:13] <Philip`> (You'd just need a find-and-replace on "mml:" before pasting it into HTML)
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  866. # [23:13] <jgraham> If you believe MathML is never written by hand the entities make no sense. But the theory is clearly that it is written by hand otherwise ideas like &InvisibleTimes; would be nonsensical
  867. # [23:14] <zcorpan_> jgraham: indeed
  868. # [23:14] <zcorpan_> i think the entities make no sense :)
  869. # [23:14] <jgraham> (As, possibly, would the whole of conten MathML but maybe Mathematica or something can produce that)
  870. # [23:14] <jgraham> *content
  871. # [23:15] * Joins: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  872. # [23:16] * jgraham is quite sad at how many hard-to-hand-author languages have ended up on the web
  873. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> I'm happy CSS has stayed as easy as it is.
  874. # [23:16] <jgraham> Yeah CSS is more or less OK. Although selectors kinda sucks
  875. # [23:17] <jgraham> (for complex selectors)
  876. # [23:17] <Philip`> I find writing PNGs by hand to be a bit challenging
  877. # [23:17] <Philip`> Should have stuck with PPM
  878. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I find complex selectors pretty easy, but I know I'm atypical.
  879. # [23:18] * Quits: annevk2 (n=annevk@213.236.208.22) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  880. # [23:18] <jgraham> Philip`: I think images are a different case. Argualy that excuses SVG too
  881. # [23:18] <zcorpan_> Philip`: btw, any chance you could do a dump for (?i)<script[^>]*>([^<]|<(?!/script[\s/>]))*<!--([^-]|-(?!->))*<script[\s/>]([^-]|-(?!->))*</script[\s/>]
  882. # [23:19] <jgraham> TabAtkins: The main problem is guessing which arbitarity-chosen symbol will be used for the operation you want
  883. # [23:19] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Oops, I forgot you asked already
  884. # [23:19] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I could probably try that later this evening (in maybe an hour), if I don't forget aain
  885. # [23:19] <Philip`> s//g/
  886. # [23:19] <zcorpan_> ok
  887. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Ah, yeah, that's a very valid criticism.
  888. # [23:20] <zcorpan_> has anyone checked what the compat situation is with the new entities, btw?
  889. # [23:21] * TabAtkins wishes IE would treat alt-text properly rather than calling it out as extra-special-missing-image-right-here.
  890. # [23:22] <zcorpan_> do pages use e.g. &wp; and expect it to be "&wp;" and not ℘
  891. # [23:23] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.17.16)
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  894. # [23:31] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@74.125.59.73)
  895. # [23:31] <virtuelv> jgraham: me, not so much. baby's being fed right now
  896. # [23:31] * Quits: sbublava (n=stephan@77.117.150.177)
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  898. # [23:31] <virtuelv> zcorpan_: my problem with defining additional entities is that we don't know what kind of off-web breakage it will cause
  899. # [23:32] <virtuelv> and by "don't know", I mean we lack data, and means to collect them
  900. # [23:33] <virtuelv> I would like to think that authors haven't been braindead enough to use the HTML 4.01 defined entities for something else in their own formats
  901. # [23:33] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70-36-139-108.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  902. # [23:33] <virtuelv> but I certainly wouldn't discount it
  903. # [23:34] * Joins: Super-Dot (n=Super-Do@66.240.27.50)
  904. # [23:35] * Joins: fishd_ (n=darin@67.180.164.209)
  905. # [23:36] <virtuelv> either way, now is bedtime
  906. # [23:39] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  907. # [23:41] <zcorpan_> virtuelv: yes, good point
  908. # [23:44] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@80-225-52-194.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  909. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> Ah. Interesting. Julian's gone for the "insane" option.
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  912. # [23:56] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@63.245.220.224) ("Core Breach")
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  914. # [23:58] * Joins: boblet (n=boblet@p1254-ipbf304osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  915. # Session Close: Fri Oct 02 00:00:00 2009

The end :)