/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-03 / end

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  16. # [00:41] <Hixie> weird
  17. # [00:41] <Hixie> i just got a whole series of kernel panics
  18. # [00:42] <Hixie> all in panic(cpu 1 caller 0x0087D888): @/SourceCache/AirPortDriverAtheros5424/AirPortDriverAtheros5424-320.16.2/src/net80211/ieee80211_scan_sta.c:1787
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  21. # [00:48] <Hixie> i've no idea if this is the right line 1787, but if it is, i'm amused:
  22. # [00:48] <Hixie> http://fxr.watson.org/fxr/source/net80211/ieee80211_scan_sta.c#L1787
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  25. # [00:49] * Philip` imagines it's quite unlikely for a comment to cause a panic
  26. # [00:50] <Hixie> well i'm sure the darwin version isn't quite line-for-lien aligned with that one
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  61. # [03:11] <TabAtkins> Hixie: In "Selecting names when defining vocabularies"'s list of properties that appear in the example at the bottom, you say "This example has one item with two types...". I only see the one type, though.
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  63. # [03:12] <Hixie> fixed thanks
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  69. # [03:21] <TabAtkins> What *possible* times would an *element* be needed for customization where a class wouldn't cut it?
  70. # [03:21] <TabAtkins> That... that just doesn't make sense. <div class="foo"></div> is functionally identical to <foo></foo> for purposes of extending the language. The only difference is that the first one works right now and is accepted by everyone.
  71. # [03:23] <Hixie> chapter 3 of http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5434.txt seems relevant
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  80. # [03:43] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: I looked at some SVG files where Inkscape adds elements and not just attributes for its design-time metadata
  81. # [03:43] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: it does seem to use elements for some things
  82. # [03:44] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: it seems to be in cases where there are logical "objects" with a bunch of key-value pairs, where in principle you may have more than one such object per document or per affected parent element
  83. # [03:44] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: so you can't just add attributes to the affected element
  84. # [03:44] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: or at least, that would be awkward
  85. # [03:44] <othermaciej> you have to use a semantically null, non-rendering element
  86. # [03:44] <othermaciej> <div> is not great because, even though it has no semantics, it renders by default
  87. # [03:45] <othermaciej> <meta> might work, though only for things that have document-wide scope
  88. # [03:49] * TabAtkins is sorry, was off making dinner.
  89. # [03:50] <TabAtkins> That makes sense, but we have tools for that now.
  90. # [03:50] <TabAtkins> Microdata is the obvious candidate.
  91. # [03:51] <TabAtkins> Plus the aforementioned just-use-a-comment suggestion.
  92. # [03:51] <TabAtkins> Hell, embed xml in your comment or whatever. If you have the source, that's more than adequate.
  93. # [03:51] <TabAtkins> And it doesn't mess with what anyone else sees, as intended.
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  95. # [03:54] <TabAtkins> Though I see how comments would fail the "must roundtrip through editting tools" requirement.
  96. # [03:59] <othermaciej> yes, I think comments fail due to round-tripping
  97. # [03:59] <othermaciej> microdata could work in place of data-* attributes, but I think it has the same issue as RDFa of introducing overconstraining model structure
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  99. # [04:00] <othermaciej> microdata doesn't by itself provide a solution to the kinds of use cases that would call for an element with null semantics and no rendering
  100. # [04:01] <othermaciej> (and which can be placed anywhere)
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  102. # [04:02] <othermaciej> like if your editor wants to represent multiple "viewports" (where you might have different size/shape windows zooming into different parts of the image), there is likely no existing element in the document to associate each one with
  103. # [04:02] <othermaciej> and it's hard to express as a single set of key-value pairs on the root element
  104. # [04:03] <othermaciej> I suppose you could do it with sufficient extra levels of indirection, it would just be messy
  105. # [04:05] <othermaciej> OK, microdata can do it, using <meta itemprop itemscope>
  106. # [04:07] <othermaciej> but requiring a separate element for each property would be a significant burden, I think
  107. # [04:08] <othermaciej> it would be nice it you could add properties directly to the itemscope element with attributes of some kind, maybe something analogous to data-* attributes
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  109. # [04:18] <Hixie> can't inkscape just use xml as its internal format, like, well, like it does already?
  110. # [04:21] <othermaciej> I think Inkscape is being used as a stand-in for HTML editing tools that may similarly want to record design-time information
  111. # [04:22] <othermaciej> (including hypothetical future SVG-in-HTML tools)
  112. # [04:22] <othermaciej> at least that's how I am thinking about it
  113. # [04:24] <othermaciej> (but it provides more of a concrete example than a purely hypothetical example)
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  119. # [04:33] <TabAtkins> It seems like we're talking about tools here, so I'm not sure why lots of <meta>s is so bad. It would be inconvenient when hand-authoring, but that's not the use-case we're talking about.
  120. # [04:34] <TabAtkins> It's a bit weighty, but not horribly so.
  121. # [04:35] <TabAtkins> And with a lot of properties that are grouped, you can wrap them in a <div itemscope itemtype="foo" hidden></div> to save on the per-item weight.
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  123. # [04:40] <Hixie> othermaciej: can't they use xhtml, then? or does the on-the-wire format have to have this stuff? it seems bad for bandwidth to be encouraging people to export this proprietary stuff onto their site
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  163. # [06:37] <boblet> On a weblog homepage showing excerpts of recent articles (wrapped in <article>), these shouldn’t be inside a parent <article>, should they (<section> instead, right?)
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  190. # [08:41] <annevk42> Hixie, wouldn't itemScope etc. be more consistent?
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  200. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I thought you had mentioned dropping the predefined vocabularies
  201. # [09:00] <annevk42> are they not dropped?
  202. # [09:02] * annevk42 doesn't see them
  203. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> diff seems to just show that they moved
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  205. # [09:05] <annevk42> I think it shows they are no longer in HTML5 but still in the source doc
  206. # [09:06] <annevk42> itemtype doesn't even allow predefined vocabs
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  208. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> annevk42: yeah, OK, I see now
  209. # [09:08] <othermaciej> well, there's one issue we can resolve
  210. # [09:09] <annevk42> I guess the idea is to define org.w3.vcard or some such
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  306. # [18:16] <Dashiva> http://www.jgc.org/blog/2009/09/javascript-must-die.html
  307. # [18:21] <miketaylr> deprecate javascript, that's cute
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  311. # [18:25] <gsnedders> I think that'll have about as much effect as deprecating presentational markup has had.
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  314. # [18:44] <othermaciej> there's a lot of sloppy thinking and/or sloppy communication in those slides
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  317. # [18:58] <Dashiva> Oh, poor RDFa. It only supports RDF.
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The end :)