/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Oct 04 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  31. # [02:52] <Hixie> vcard.org, vcard.net, vevent.org, and vevent.net are all squatted
  32. # [02:52] <Hixie> sigh
  33. # [02:56] <Dashiva> No country code .rd either
  34. # [02:57] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.140.254.34)
  35. # [02:57] <Dashiva> ard.vc maybe? :)
  36. # [02:58] <Hixie> i don't like splitting words with dots like that
  37. # [02:58] <erlehmann> Domain Information
  38. # [02:58] <erlehmann> Query: ml.ht
  39. # [02:58] <erlehmann> Status: Not Registered
  40. # [02:58] <erlehmann> ;D
  41. # [02:59] <Hixie> ai guess i'll go with http://n.whatwg.org/vcard and http://n.whatwg.org/vevent
  42. # [02:59] <erlehmann> D:
  43. # [02:59] <tantek> Hixie - inventing yet another vocabulary space?
  44. # [02:59] <Hixie> no, just finding URLs for the vcard and vevent vocabularies
  45. # [03:00] <Hixie> so they can be identified in microdata and so they can be converted to rdf
  46. # [03:00] <erlehmann> ht.ml.vcard would have been sooo nice :/
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  48. # [03:00] <tantek> Hixie - http://microformats.org/profile/hcard and http://microformats.org/profile/hcalendar already define the vcard and vevent vocabularies in the context of HTML (microformats etc.)
  49. # [03:00] <tantek> and work as URLs for when converting to RDF
  50. # [03:00] <tantek> with the proper #term suffix and everything
  51. # [03:01] <tantek> no need to reinvent your own new URLs
  52. # [03:01] <tantek> e.g. http://microformats.org/profile/hcard#fn
  53. # [03:01] <Hixie> that's for hcard and hcalendar though
  54. # [03:01] <tantek> and http://microformats.org/profile/hcalendar#dtstart
  55. # [03:01] <Hixie> also, the #foo stuff works differently in microdata
  56. # [03:01] <tantek> hcard = vcard in HTML
  57. # [03:01] <tantek> hcalendar = icalendar and vevent in HTML
  58. # [03:01] <Hixie> no, hcard = vcard in class="" in HTML
  59. # [03:01] <tantek> the "h" = HTML
  60. # [03:01] <Hixie> i'm talking about microdata
  61. # [03:01] <Hixie> i mean, i don't mind reusing that URL if you want
  62. # [03:02] <Hixie> but it doesn't seem that you'd want me to
  63. # [03:02] <tantek> Hixie, I'll clarify the profiles to make it clear they're not just for class
  64. # [03:02] * tantek notes a to-do
  65. # [03:03] <tantek> as the hCard 1.0.1 and hCalendar 1.0.1 separate the notion of the vocabularies from the host language extension points (e.g. class in HTML3, HTML4, and HTML5, and microdata in HTML5)
  66. # [03:03] <Hixie> k, i'll use http://microformats.org/profile/hcard
  67. # [03:03] <Hixie> seems confusing to me to have two nearly-identical vocabularies with different conversions to RDF using the same vocabulary name, but whatever
  68. # [03:04] <tantek> how will the conversions to RDF be different?
  69. # [03:04] <tantek> I'm not sure I understand
  70. # [03:04] <tantek> Hixie, if you have an "ideal" conversion to RDF already in mind, I am willing to look into re-using it.
  71. # [03:05] <tantek> I don't see any good reason for there to be two different conversions for hCard/vCard to RDF.
  72. # [03:05] <tantek> and the #foo suffix on the URLs was done deliberately to be compatible with RDF style URLs - I'd advise keeping that compatibility (unless you have a very good reason to be different).
  73. # [03:06] <Hixie> short names converted to rdf from microdata, e.g. "fn" in vcard, end up looking like "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#http%3A%2F%2Fmicroformats.org%2Fprofile%2Fhcard%23fn"
  74. # [03:06] <Hixie> s/vocab/custom/
  75. # [03:06] <tantek> whoa that's nasty
  76. # [03:07] <Hixie> i can't see another way to prevent people from ending up using the full names when roubd-tripping
  77. # [03:07] <Hixie> round
  78. # [03:09] <tantek> is round-tripping a requirement? based on which use case?
  79. # [03:10] <tantek> exporting to legacy formats (like .vcf) inevitably will result in some loss of fidelity
  80. # [03:10] <Hixie> round-tripping isn't a requirement, it's just something that's likely to happen that it's important we don't let screw us up
  81. # [03:10] <tantek> I disagree
  82. # [03:10] <Hixie> ok
  83. # [03:10] <tantek> if there isn't a use case for it
  84. # [03:10] <tantek> then round-tripping unnecessarily compromises the design
  85. # [03:10] <tantek> both .vcf and .rdf/xml are legacy stream formats IMHO
  86. # [03:11] <Hixie> i'm talking about round-tripping through a triple store
  87. # [03:11] <Hixie> which sems highly likely to occur if rdf and microdata ever get used together
  88. # [03:13] <tantek> I don't know - do you have any existing examples of HTML (of any kind) being produced from a triple-store?
  89. # [03:13] <Hixie> sure, dbpedia.org for example
  90. # [03:13] <tantek> I'm not sure that a triple-store isn't lossy in the first place
  91. # [03:13] <Hixie> or anything metaweb produces
  92. # [03:14] <tantek> I bet the HTML produced from those is lossy compared to the HTML semantics they consumed to create the triple-store.
  93. # [03:14] <Hixie> microdata is (amongst other things) an rdf serialisation, so i don't see any reason why it'd be lossy
  94. # [03:14] <Hixie> it's not like microformats in that respect
  95. # [03:14] <Hixie> microformats -> rdf is definitely lossy, sure
  96. # [03:14] <tantek> sort of
  97. # [03:14] <tantek> no that's not lossy
  98. # [03:14] <tantek> because it works with URLs
  99. # [03:14] <tantek> for each term
  100. # [03:15] <Hixie> so what's lossy then?
  101. # [03:15] <tantek> it's the reverse that's lossy
  102. # [03:15] <Hixie> i'm very confused as to what you're saying
  103. # [03:15] <tantek> rdf -> microdata
  104. # [03:15] <tantek> the end result
  105. # [03:15] <Hixie> oh sure, arbitrary rdf to microdata can be lossy, e.g. you lose datatypes
  106. # [03:15] <Hixie> i'm talking about microdata -> rdf -> microdata
  107. # [03:15] <tantek> but once it enters a triple store, who knows what else gets added to it
  108. # [03:15] <tantek> that's my point
  109. # [03:16] <Hixie> my point is just that i don't want people writing <span itemprop="http://microformats.org/profile/hcard#fn">...</span> and expecting it to be treated the same as <span itemprop="fn">...</span>
  110. # [03:17] <tantek> why?
  111. # [03:17] <Hixie> because that's an interop nightmare
  112. # [03:17] <Hixie> the whole point of microdata is that you don't have ambiguity of this nature
  113. # [03:17] <Hixie> you can do string compares at each stage of the way
  114. # [03:18] <Hixie> without needing any built-in knowledge of the vocabularies
  115. # [03:18] <tantek> why not just define itemprop="fn" to be a shorthand for itemprop="http://microformats.org/profile/hcard#fn"
  116. # [03:18] <tantek> ?
  117. # [03:18] <tantek> basically, define the predefined vocabularies in terms of microformats profile URLs
  118. # [03:18] <tantek> make them equivalent
  119. # [03:18] <tantek> rather than needlessly slightly different
  120. # [03:18] <Hixie> because then you need to know the vocabulary to do anything
  121. # [03:18] <tantek> that applies to *any* predefined vocabulary
  122. # [03:18] <tantek> based on that argument you should toss all predefined vocabs
  123. # [03:18] <Hixie> no, the whole point of microdata is to fix the problem that microformats had whereby you need knowledge of the vocabulary to do _anything_
  124. # [03:19] <tantek> which the predefined vocabularies replicate
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  126. # [03:19] <tantek> ergo, drop the predefined vocabularies from HTML5 microdata
  127. # [03:19] <Hixie> what predefiend vocabularies?
  128. # [03:19] <Hixie> html5 doesn't have predefined vocabularies
  129. # [03:19] <Hixie> they've been gone for hours
  130. # [03:20] <Hixie> my point is that with microdata, you can parse any microdata into a tree, then compare it to another tree, and e.g. say whether they're the same or not, without knowing the vocabularies
  131. # [03:20] <Hixie> but if we start saying that multiple strings mean the same thing, we've lost that
  132. # [03:20] <Hixie> and that's a problem
  133. # [03:22] <tantek> "gone for hours"?!?
  134. # [03:22] <Hixie> yes, keep up :-)
  135. # [03:23] <Hixie> r4066 removed them
  136. # [03:23] <tantek> LOL - wow - ok, right then.
  137. # [03:23] * tantek will re-read the section later tonight
  138. # [03:23] <Hixie> more than hours in fact, almost a day and a half :-)
  139. # [03:24] * tantek has been busy writing up and running #microformats value-class-pattern date and time separation test cases.
  140. # [03:24] <tantek> (as part of the inclusion of required value-class-pattern support into hCard 1.0.1 and hCalendar 1.0.1)
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  188. # [07:15] * Hixie tries to work out what URL to use for vEvent
  189. # [07:16] <Hixie> i guess tantek said to use hCalendar's URL
  190. # [07:16] <Hixie> but that seems even more wrong than using hCard's
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  197. # [07:32] <othermaciej> is there no such thing as hEvent?
  198. # [07:51] <Hixie> no
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  208. # [08:42] <tantek> othermaciej - common misconception
  209. # [08:43] <tantek> hCalendar is based on the iCalendar vocabulary, and allows either "vcalendar" or "vevent" as root class names
  210. # [08:44] <othermaciej> where does the v come from?
  211. # [08:45] <Hixie> the iCalendar spec
  212. # [08:45] <Hixie> tantek: so what URL should I use to identify a vEvent?
  213. # [08:45] <tantek> http://microformats.org/profile/hcalendar#vevent
  214. # [08:46] <Hixie> <div itemscope itemtype="http://microformats.org/profile/hcalendar#vevent"> ?
  215. # [08:46] <Hixie> that's a little verbose
  216. # [08:46] <tantek> URLs tend to be verbose, yeah
  217. # [08:47] <tantek> hence people invented prefixes, for convenience sake, thus unwittingly creating a solution with problems worse than the original problem
  218. # [08:47] <Hixie> hm, it also means i have to come up with another way to generate the the property name URLs
  219. # [08:47] <Hixie> since http://microformats.org/profile/hcalendar#vevent#sequence isn't a valid URL
  220. # [08:48] <Hixie> http://n.whatwg.org/vevent would be much shorter
  221. # [08:48] <tantek> Hixie, if you're looking for shortening, I've partially implemented a URL shortener for microformats.org
  222. # [08:48] <tantek> coincidentally, profiles were the first set of URLs that I shortened
  223. # [08:48] <Hixie> i'm really looking for memorable rather than short
  224. # [08:49] <Hixie> and without a "#"
  225. # [08:49] <tantek> e.g. http://ufs.cc/x/hcalendar is the shortlink for http://microformats.org/profile/hcalendar
  226. # [08:49] <Hixie> not a semantically equivalent one, i hope
  227. # [08:49] <tantek> why?
  228. # [08:49] <Hixie> aliases are evil
  229. # [08:49] <Hixie> they cause implementation nightmares
  230. # [08:49] <Hixie> as we were discussing earlier
  231. # [08:50] <Hixie> identifiers should be unique
  232. # [08:50] <tantek> tough. HTTP 301. every implementation MUST support.
  233. # [08:50] <tantek> and tons of interoperable implementations do
  234. # [08:50] <tantek> e.g. search engines
  235. # [08:50] <Hixie> wait, you want people to do HTTP traffic to microformats.org every time they interpret this stuff?
  236. # [08:50] <tantek> what do you mean by "interpret"?
  237. # [08:51] <Hixie> everytime they parse a microdata blob and want to find out what it is -- if you're saying that 301 must be supported, that means they have to actually fetch this value and see what it resolves to
  238. # [08:51] <Hixie> which seems like a really expensive idea for whoever is hosting microformats.org
  239. # [08:52] <Hixie> i mean, w3.org can't handle the load for DOCTYPEs, and they have multiple mirrors and dedicated IT staff
  240. # [08:52] <tantek> nah - just like they don't have to fetch DTD URLs everytime
  241. # [08:52] <Hixie> and DOCTYPEs aren't even supposed to be fetched at all
  242. # [08:53] <tantek> welcome to the spiraling unscalable nightmare that is "distributed extensibility"
  243. # [08:53] <Hixie> it seems perfectly scalable to me if you just don't resolve the URLs
  244. # [08:53] <Hixie> and just treat them as opaque strings
  245. # [08:53] <Hixie> which is what microdata says
  246. # [08:53] <tantek> sure, you just invent another layer to make them equivalent (like OWL)
  247. # [08:54] <Hixie> why would you need anything to declare them equivalent
  248. # [08:54] <Hixie> just don't have duplicates in the first place
  249. # [08:54] <tantek> ask the OWL folks
  250. # [08:54] <tantek> in practice, duplicates happen
  251. # [08:54] <Hixie> no need to create them on purpose...
  252. # [08:56] <tantek> history and all that
  253. # [08:56] <tantek> e.g. I bet you could find numerous "aliases" for the "canonical" Dublin Core terms
  254. # [08:57] <tantek> and there was no need to create them on purpose either
  255. # [08:57] <tantek> but, it happened
  256. # [08:57] <Hixie> sure, but you're suggesting creating some on purpose
  257. # [08:57] <tantek> so, to expect that they won't happen, is against currently available data
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  273. # [10:37] <Hixie> wow, no objections to the microdata vocabularies spec idea yet
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  285. # [12:14] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/vocabs/current-work/
  286. # [12:15] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/html5/mdvcard/
  287. # [12:15] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/html5/mdvevent/
  288. # [12:15] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/html5/mdwork/
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  307. # [13:46] <Hixie> i like how john calls the whatwg our "club" in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0267.html
  308. # [13:46] <Hixie> do we get a treehouse?
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  328. # [15:25] <Dashiva> #whatwg-secret-tree-house-no-patents-allowed
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  354. # [18:02] <gsnedders> jgraham: ping
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  363. # [18:23] <jgraham> gsnedders: pong
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  365. # [18:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: You remember what you agreed to a couple of days ago?
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  367. # [18:31] <gsnedders> jgraham: Like, me coming over? Today?
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  369. # [18:36] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes
  370. # [18:39] <gsnedders> Gah. Caller ID doesn't work when people use other people's phones.
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  375. # [19:13] <TabAtkins> Well, it took all of 5 minutes to get xampp running on my machine, including download time. I really don't understand what I was whining about before.
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  425. # Session Close: Mon Oct 05 00:00:00 2009

The end :)