/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-05 / end

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  14. # [01:13] <Hixie> man, this Nick guy i so verbose
  15. # [01:14] <Hixie> i don't think i've ever seen him write a comment on a bug report that actually fits on one page of my laptop's screen
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  33. # [01:49] <Philip`> Hixie: You could try rotating the screen ninety degrees, assuming it's a widescreen laptop, and then it may be more likely to fit
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  41. # [02:19] <Hixie> Philip`: even then...
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  69. # [04:53] <Hixie> othermaciej: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7657#c8
  70. # [04:53] <Hixie> othermaciej: any chance the official process will be made public soon? :-)
  71. # [04:54] <othermaciej> Hixie: Sam and I have a disagreement about some details - I'll try to get it settled soon (target is next week)
  72. # [04:54] <Hixie> k
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  78. # [05:11] <miketaylr> i'm pleased to see that boolean attributes work as css selectors, i.e., [list] {background:#ff0;}
  79. # [05:11] <miketaylr> (in opera/chromium)
  80. # [05:12] <miketaylr> are there any opera devs in the house?
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  83. # [05:15] <TabAtkins> They're either just waking up or starting work. Give 'em a few hours.
  84. # [05:16] <TabAtkins> Or, if you wait until American morning, they're just ending work, and hang out a lot.
  85. # [05:16] <miketaylr> TabAtkins: oh yeah, i suck at time zones.
  86. # [05:16] <miketaylr> thanks
  87. # [05:16] <TabAtkins> np
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  93. # [05:54] <inimino> /b 19
  94. # [05:54] <inimino> oops
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  193. # [13:20] <Hixie> ok nn
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  222. # [15:00] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
  223. # [15:01] <zcorpan> hsivonen: should i make the pseudo-attributes processing of xml-stylesheet unattached to processing instructions so that they can be invoked for any string (e.g. comment data)?
  224. # [15:03] * Joins: daedb (n=quassel@h11n1fls34o986.telia.com)
  225. # [15:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: do you mean for reuse in other specs?
  226. # [15:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah
  227. # [15:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan: If it's easy to have that kind of generality, I guess having it doesn't hurt
  228. # [15:05] <zcorpan> it would be easy
  229. # [15:06] <hsivonen> seems like a good idea in that case
  230. # [15:08] * annevk2 wonders if we're turning into framework designers :p
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  235. # [15:20] <hsivonen> annevk2: if you organize a program into methods, you aren't an astronaut just yet :-)
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  238. # [15:25] <TabAtkins> Man, why does my optimism about humanity's inherent honesty have to be so sorely tested even on something where honesty should be so *simple* like a technical mailing list?
  239. # [15:26] <Philip`> What makes you imagine it's a technical mailing list?
  240. # [15:26] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: which mailing list is testing your optimism about honesty?
  241. # [15:27] <TabAtkins> hsivonen, htmlwg. ;_;
  242. # [15:27] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: anything in particular that doesn't appear inherently honest?
  243. # [15:27] <TabAtkins> Philip`, it's the technology that does it, I think.
  244. # [15:27] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: Shelley's attempts to reframe your arguments.
  245. # [15:28] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: I don't think there's dishonesty involved.
  246. # [15:29] <hsivonen> It is a bit annoying though that following up on the hypothetical offered previously is countered with additional requirements that don't seem to allow hypotheticals.
  247. # [15:29] <TabAtkins> I find it difficult to imagine that she's being honest in constantly turning your arguments over and poking at what she perceives is the weakest *social* point of it, while completely ignoring the technical discussion that is the point of your arguments.
  248. # [15:30] <TabAtkins> I think it's one of the most stark examples of incompatible worldviews I've ever personally witnessed.
  249. # [15:31] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@38.99.201.242)
  250. # [15:31] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: what was the weakest social point in my argument?
  251. # [15:32] <TabAtkins> Imo, the fact that you are purposely playing dumb to force the other side to elucidate their proposals more concretely.
  252. # [15:33] <TabAtkins> Shelley then twists that into implying that you are either ignoring them for dishonest reasons, or are just too stupid to realize that they've given answers (inadequate though they may be).
  253. # [15:34] <hsivonen> I'm not purposely playing dumb. I honestly don't know if the set of characteristics of "decentralized extensibility" is a proper subset of the characteristics of Namespaces.
  254. # [15:34] <hsivonen> but every time I try to understand what's essence and what's incidental to an implementation, people don't want to answer me
  255. # [15:35] <TabAtkins> I know, that's what you're trying to force them to answer. But they think the answer is obvious, and so assume that you're being dishonest.
  256. # [15:36] <hsivonen> frankly, if there's nothing you can change about Namespaces without it stopping being "decentralized extensibility", we should remove the fancy term and just talk about Namespaces
  257. # [15:37] <TabAtkins> Ah, but that removes the ability to trap people into agreeing on principle, so they can't reject Namespaces when the full proposal is put forth.
  258. # [15:37] <hsivonen> if there's a distinct principle to agree on, I think the principle should be explicitly formulated
  259. # [15:39] <TabAtkins> I agree 100%. Which brings us around to my optimism about humanity's honesty being tested.
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  263. # [15:47] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
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  267. # [15:58] <TabAtkins> Anyone know how to get a Print Preview out of Chrome? Trying to debug a media=print stylesheet in it, and it's more difficult if I have to actually print every time (even if only to a pdf).
  268. # [16:01] <Philip`> Install Safari, select 'print preview' menu option?
  269. # [16:01] <Philip`> (I assume it has one...)
  270. # [16:02] <TabAtkins> I need to reinstall safari anyway, so sure.
  271. # [16:02] <gavin> on mac it uses the built-in platform print-preview, presumably
  272. # [16:02] <gavin> does it implement its own on windows?
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  274. # [16:19] <othermaciej> Safari on Mac just generates a PDF for Print Preview - dunno what it does on Windows
  275. # [16:22] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: What would be the best way to complain about Webkit's rendering of broken images with alt-text?
  276. # [16:23] <TabAtkins> (The bug I was addressing wasn't about print stylesheets at all, but rather about the print button on the page, which doesn't currently have an image. I was relying on Firefox's treatment, where it's literally indistinguishable from just having the alt-text there instead.)
  277. # [16:23] <TabAtkins> (For small images, though, the "broken image" icon completely overlays the text.)
  278. # [16:24] <TabAtkins> (In webkit)
  279. # [16:24] * Philip` suggests fixing the image so it's not broken
  280. # [16:24] <TabAtkins> Part of the reason I *add* alt-text, though, is so I can rely on the page still being usable when images *do* break for whatever reason.
  281. # [16:25] <TabAtkins> In this case I was just waiting for the actual image, so I slid in an <img> tag without a @src for now.
  282. # [16:25] <Rik|work> TabAtkins: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11200 and https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5566
  283. # [16:25] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: bugzilla
  284. # [16:25] <Rik|work> TabAtkins: shake those oooold bugs
  285. # [16:25] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: but I suspect your complaints are known issues, so commenting in the existing bugs would be best
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  290. # [16:40] <TabAtkins> Thanks, you two.
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  293. # [16:52] <zcorpan> hsivonen: btw, after having looked at http://philip.html5.org/data/script-open-in-escape.txt too, i found one site (www.jeuxactu.com) with 3 pages that breaks with proposal #3
  294. # [16:53] <zcorpan> hsivonen: so it is on the order of 10 pages out of 425000 that break with proposal #3
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  296. # [16:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: where there around 600-700 out of 425000 that break with what's in the spec now, afaict
  297. # [16:56] <Philip`> How many break with what browsers currently implement?
  298. # [16:57] <zcorpan> Philip`: 0 for the purposes of the numbers above
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  300. # [16:59] <zcorpan> there might well be pages that do something like <script><!-- foo() </script> <script><!-- bar() //--></script> and expect both foo() and bar() to run
  301. # [16:59] <zcorpan> which they would with proposal #3 but don't in current browsers
  302. # [16:59] <zcorpan> i haven't looked for such pages
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  304. # [17:01] <zcorpan> (or there might be pages with that pattern but expect none of them to run)
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  306. # [17:04] <zcorpan> sorry, 600-1300 out of 425000
  307. # [17:04] <zcorpan> since i don't know what the overlap is between the two sets of data
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  309. # [17:10] <zcorpan> hmm, if i look at http://www.marchander.com/catalog-9500-gallery.html it has commented out the script element, so it is not relevant
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  311. # [17:11] <zcorpan> so the breakage could be less than 600
  312. # [17:11] <annevk2> the win being no reparsing?
  313. # [17:12] <zcorpan> yes
  314. # [17:12] <zcorpan> no reparsing means better performance, too
  315. # [17:12] <zcorpan> since we don't need to wait for the whole page to load before deciding where to close the script element
  316. # [17:13] <zcorpan> reparsing also means potentially reparsing several times
  317. # [17:14] <zcorpan> <script><!-- foo() </script> <script><!-- foo() </script> <script><!-- foo() </script> etc
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  332. # [17:51] <annevk2> more anecdotal namespace fun: http://www.w3.org/mid/op.u1b23ela64w2qv@annevk-t60
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  337. # [17:53] <Philip`> div[xml|lang|="ar"]
  338. # [17:53] <Philip`> I like how the excellent unambiguous syntax makes it really easy to read
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  345. # [18:09] <zcorpan> div:lang(ar)
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  347. # [18:10] <annevk2> they're not the same
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  349. # [18:10] <annevk2> people should not use a Selector such as [xml|lang] in general
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  355. # [18:32] <gsnedders> Hixie: yt?
  356. # [18:34] <jgraham> gsnedders: He went to bed not very many hours ago
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  358. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> What timezone is Hixie in?
  359. # [18:35] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: America/San_Franicso
  360. # [18:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: He's normally getting up around now, how am I to know? :P
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  362. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> k. He acts like he lives in -12 or something.
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  373. # [19:10] <gsnedders> Does IE throw when it comes across an undefined variable in JS?
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  390. # [19:47] <jgraham> gsnedders: iirc then yes, for some definition of undefined
  391. # [19:47] * gsnedders wonders what rev of html5lib he has installed at home, as he's getting diff. output from anolis :\
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  393. # [19:49] * gsnedders notes anolis does not work with html5lib tip
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  396. # [19:54] * jgraham wonders if this is the namespace issue or something else
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  398. # [19:58] <gsnedders> Dunno/
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  418. # [20:29] <gsnedders> Hmm, jgraham: you got any idea where I could get a couple of GB -> Euro power adapters here?
  419. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> A drug store?
  420. # [20:37] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Clas Ohlson probably
  421. # [20:37] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Ah, that sounds likely.
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  424. # [20:42] * gsnedders shudders at the thought of trying to find things in Clas Ohlson
  425. # [20:45] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-227-235.bredband.comhem.se) ("Adios intarwebs.")
  426. # [20:47] <Dashiva> That's what the catalogue and/or employees are for
  427. # [20:48] * TabAtkins is having fun abusing a "functional programming is too inefficient!" weenie who thinks that functional programming is just what you get when you use recursion.
  428. # [20:50] <TabAtkins> /educating
  429. # [20:51] <Philip`> That seems backwards
  430. # [20:51] <Philip`> Recursion is what you get when you use functional programming
  431. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> Aw, Philip`, now I have to educate you too.
  432. # [20:51] <Dashiva> "I have only learned now that there is a "text/palin" option that I have never heard of"
  433. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> Recursion is a low-level operation that you should use as little as possible.
  434. # [20:52] <TabAtkins> Functional programming can probably be best defined as using maps and folds a lot.
  435. # [20:52] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@63.245.220.240) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  436. # [20:52] <TabAtkins> At least as a decent heuristic.
  437. # [20:52] <Dashiva> Functional programming can be described as the designer forgetting to include variables
  438. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> Iteration is perfectly fine in a functional language. It's just usually unnecessary, just as recursion is usually unnecessary.
  439. # [20:53] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Maps and folds are just abstractions of recursion
  440. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> Because you're almost always using much more powerful primitives.
  441. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> Philip`, um? Maps and folds *can* be thought of as recursive. They can also be thought of as iterative. The distinction is really unnecessary here.
  442. # [20:54] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-kffdnejbbcbkhpyt)
  443. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> Because both iteration and recursion are low-level operations that are basically equivalent. You just choose one or the other based on how easy they make a particular problem.
  444. # [20:55] <Philip`> TabAtkins: The defining feature of functional languages is there's a simple core that just does (recursive) function calls and not much else, and everything else is built on top of that
  445. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> Perhaps of functional *languages*, yes. Not functional *programming*.
  446. # [20:56] <Philip`> and the underlying recursiveness is critical for issues like performance of folds
  447. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> All functional programming needs is the ability to define functions as first-class objects.
  448. # [20:57] <TabAtkins> ?_? You can get equal performance out of an iterative fold as you can with a recursive one.
  449. # [20:57] <Philip`> (and pure functional languages can't do iteration at all, because it doesn't make sense when there's no mutable state)
  450. # [20:58] <Philip`> TabAtkins: I'm talking about functional programming in terms of programming in functional programming languages, not in terms of writing stuff with functions in other languages ;-)
  451. # [20:58] <TabAtkins> I'm talking about functional programming in terms of writing Lisp code that passes functions around properly. I rarely iterate *or* recurse in my programs, because neither are necessary.
  452. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> And whether mapcar is implemented as a recursive function or an iterative is irrelevant to me, as long as it's performant.
  453. # [21:00] <TabAtkins> (The most natural implementation is a pretty trivial iterative one, actually, that builds a list by holding onto the tail as it constructs it.)
  454. # [21:00] * Joins: cpharmston (n=cpharmst@office.threespot.com)
  455. # [21:00] <Philip`> TabAtkins: The performance issue is relevant because some folds might take O(n) stack space, due to their recursive nature
  456. # [21:01] <Dashiva> That's what kept nagging me about prolog
  457. # [21:02] <Dashiva> Sure, it works now. It works most of the time. But I can never be sure what crazy antics it will pull on me.
  458. # [21:02] <TabAtkins> Indeed, performance is important. But how it works underneath isn't. If your fold primitive is inefficient because it's implemented recursively, then you need a better compiler that can instead unfold it into an iteration.
  459. # [21:05] <Philip`> Dashiva: I expect that's partly why C (and C++ to a lesser extent) is nice for high-performance code, because you can know pretty much exactly what any line of code is going to do, and you can read it and profile it and optimise it and it makes sense
  460. # [21:05] <Philip`> whereas other languages might do all kinds of crazy black-box runtime stuff
  461. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> That's what profilers are for, and hooks that allow you to drop down the abstraction ladder when necessary.
  462. # [21:07] <Philip`> and even if other languages are theoretically more efficient (e.g. JITs can use dynamic profiling data), in practice it seems much harder to write efficient (because e.g. the JIT will magically stop working if you have too much bytecode and there's no good way to debug it and work out the problem)
  463. # [21:08] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Dropping down the abstraction ladder can be really hard
  464. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> So make sure you have a compiler that makes it unnecessary most of the time. ^_^
  465. # [21:09] <Philip`> and working out what high-level modifications will result in desired low-level changes, several levels of abstraction away, can also be really hard
  466. # [21:09] <Philip`> TabAtkins: The ability for a compiler to make it unnecessary seems largely determined by the language
  467. # [21:10] <TabAtkins> Philip`, explain?
  468. # [21:10] <Philip`> hence C being good because it encourages compilers to have very little abstraction from the hardware
  469. # [21:10] <Philip`> and Prolog being less good because it takes a lot of effort to work out what the hardware's doing, regardless of how clever your tools are
  470. # [21:12] <TabAtkins> Okay, I see that.
  471. # [21:12] <TabAtkins> But many languages (especially multiparadigm functional languages) do make it relatively easy to do so.
  472. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> (I'm not convinced that logic programming is at all a good general paradigm, though, so my opinion of Prolog is fairly low to start with.)
  473. # [21:15] * Philip` wonders what multiparadigm functional languages are
  474. # [21:15] <TabAtkins> Lisp, for one.
  475. # [21:15] * TabAtkins is a Lisper, and so uses a lot of examples from it.
  476. # [21:15] <Philip`> (If it's not just syntactic sugar for lambda calculus then it doesn't sound like a functional programming language to me :-p )
  477. # [21:16] <TabAtkins> It *can* be. Or you can do OO programming with CLOS. Or iteration with whatever the hell you want. Or aspect-oriented. Or logic programming. Whatever.
  478. # [21:17] * Joins: jorlow (n=jorlow@nat/google/x-vvjbqdgxzhxdwicy)
  479. # [21:17] <TabAtkins> Lisp doesn't go out of its way to be pure, shutting down useful avenues for making a program easier to write (this is basically why I haven't switched to Haskell yet).
  480. # [21:17] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
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  497. # [22:03] * jgraham wonders if anyone else thought of Michael Palin rather than Sarah Palin
  498. # [22:20] <Philip`> jgraham: http://www.michaelpalinforpresident.com/ did
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  509. # [22:51] <jgraham> TabAtkins: http://cgi.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/blog/2008/05/16 is rather suggestive of (at least one) functional language being non-trivial to optimize
  510. # [22:51] <jgraham> (although the author is trying to make quite the opposite point)
  511. # [22:52] <jgraham> However I guess C and similar is rather hard to optimize when you move from simple single thread/core to highly concurent problems
  512. # [22:52] <jgraham> (although obviously it can be done; see MPI and similar)
  513. # [22:54] * Joins: roc (n=roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  514. # [22:55] * Philip` saw a talk on automatic concurrency optimisation of Haskell programs
  515. # [22:55] <Philip`> and it didn't seem particularly awesome
  516. # [22:56] <Philip`> With an infinite number of cores and zero added overhead it was at most something like 50% faster on real programs
  517. # [22:56] <Philip`> which didn't really seem worth the effort
  518. # [22:56] <Philip`> (I've probably got the numbers entirely wrong)
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  527. # [23:11] <Dashiva> Philip`: That might be amdahl's fault, though
  528. # [23:13] <Philip`> Dashiva: Indeed, and the result is that programmers still need to understand concurrency and data dependencies in order to optimise their code, and the language can't do it for you
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  530. # [23:17] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@nat/mozilla/x-znnednwoyakburku)
  531. # [23:17] <heycam> sicking, http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/dom/
  532. # [23:17] <heycam> that is dom core etc. with nullable annotations added (and some getters and things)
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  535. # [23:20] <sephr> what codec do I put in a <source type> for MP3? I have a <source> for OGG vorbis that is audio/ogg;codecs=vorbis but I don't know what audio/mpeg;codecs= should be
  536. # [23:22] <webben> sephr: I'm thinking the answer is, it shouldn't: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3003.html
  537. # [23:22] * Quits: Super-Dot (n=Super-Do@66-240-27-50.isp.comcastbusiness.net)
  538. # [23:24] <sephr> webben: thanks, I thought there were differing codecs for audio/mpeg
  539. # [23:24] <sephr> (like the mp3 hd codec?)
  540. # [23:25] <webben> i dunno... there may be ... but there doesn't appear to be a codecs parameter in the media type registration
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  543. # [23:28] <weinig> heycam: should [Callback=FunctionOnly] allow objects that implement Call (like a NodeList) in addition to function objects?
  544. # [23:28] <heycam> weinig, currently yes that's what webidl requires
  545. # [23:29] <heycam> it just tries to do the [[Call]] at the appropriate time, iirc
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  549. # [23:33] <heycam> webben, oh sorry i'm wrong
  550. # [23:33] <heycam> it explicitly mentions Function objects
  551. # [23:33] <heycam> er, weinig ^
  552. # [23:33] * weinig nods
  553. # [23:33] <heycam> opinions welcome on what makes sense
  554. # [23:34] <weinig> I think we allow passing objects that implement Call in most cases
  555. # [23:34] <jgraham> heycam: Is this somthing that the ES people are likely to want changed?
  556. # [23:35] <jgraham> Since iirc ES5 says that only functions implement [[Call]]
  557. # [23:35] <heycam> jgraham, that's a good point, i'll bring it up
  558. # [23:36] <weinig> jgraham: really? Wouldn't the host object exception get around that?
  559. # [23:36] <jgraham> weinig: The ES people don't like the host object exception
  560. # [23:36] <heycam> weinig, sounds like the host object exception is something the ES folks don't want to be invoked
  561. # [23:36] <heycam> right
  562. # [23:36] <weinig> I see
  563. # [23:37] <jgraham> (They would like WebIDL APIs to be impementable in ECMAScript)
  564. # [23:37] <jgraham> *implementable
  565. # [23:39] <weinig> jgraham: ok, what is the use case for that
  566. # [23:40] <jgraham> weinig: I'm not really sure. There was a lot of discussion and I didn't take all of it in
  567. # [23:40] * Quits: Midler (n=midler@212.37.124.243) ("Leaving.")
  568. # [23:40] * weinig nods
  569. # [23:40] <jgraham> One suggestion was implementing secure mock-DOM objects in ECMAScript, but I think that was shown to be impractical
  570. # [23:41] <webben> Do you recall where that was shown?
  571. # [23:41] <jgraham> weinig: It was in a post from othermaciej_
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  573. # [23:42] <webben> on public-html?
  574. # [23:42] * Joins: mpavel (n=pavel@80-192-41-183.cable.ubr03.dund.blueyonder.co.uk)
  575. # [23:42] <jgraham> On the es-discuss / webapps/ public-html lists
  576. # [23:42] * Quits: mpavel (n=pavel@80-192-41-183.cable.ubr03.dund.blueyonder.co.uk) (Client Quit)
  577. # [23:42] <webben> too ... many ... lists ;)
  578. # [23:42] * weinig saw that cross-posting awesomeness
  579. # [23:42] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-69-106-229-240.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
  580. # [23:43] * weinig will ask maciej on the way to coffee
  581. # [23:43] <jgraham> webben: Basically he pointed out that you would end up needing to reimplement a substantial fraction of the browser
  582. # [23:44] <jgraham> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/1060.html
  583. # [23:44] <webben> ta
  584. # [23:44] <webben> it's worth noting that people are in practice trying to build DOM cages like that
  585. # [23:44] <webben> e.g. Caja
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  589. # [23:47] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  590. # [23:47] * Parts: sephr (n=elijah@c-69-242-26-20.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) ("Ex-Chat")
  591. # Session Close: Tue Oct 06 00:00:00 2009

The end :)