/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-08 / end

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  107. # [04:52] <Lachy> hey, anyone in here have any idea about topics I should try to cover in a panel about the state of the web as a platform? So far I have web storage/database, appcache, workers, video/audio, canvas.
  108. # [04:55] <Lachy> the panel is a discussion between browser vendor reps, adobe flash and W3C, talking about the web as a platform. Though, it's in the business track, so it has a business focuss rather than an overly technical focus
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  116. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> Lachy: Web Sockets
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  164. # [08:58] <othermaciej> the HTML5 editor's draft is now in my Top Sites in Safari
  165. # [08:59] <othermaciej> I guess I should only be surprised that it wasn't before
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  177. # [09:57] * jgraham wonders if Philip` has enough data to determine if detecting the encoding from the XML prolog is needed
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  183. # [10:11] <Philip`> jgraham: Seems hard to analyse - I can't just autodetect the charset and then compare against the correct charset, because the only way I can determine the correct charset is by guessing based on the autodetection
  184. # [10:13] <gsnedders> Philip`: Number of errors when decoding?
  185. # [10:13] <jgraham> Philip`: Yeah I know it's not easy. Perhaps just find pages for which the XML prolog makes a difference and then manually decide if they are better or worse with the XML prolog charset
  186. # [10:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: It doesn't seem like the differences would neccesarily be errors though?
  187. # [10:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: Right, I know, it's a limitation, but I can't see any better way to do it withoiut manual inspection of every file
  188. # [10:15] <jgraham> gsnedders: Right but there might only be a handful of files where it makes a difference
  189. # [10:15] <jgraham> If there's not just inspecting the first few should give an idea if it makes it better or worse
  190. # [10:16] <Philip`> gsnedders: Number of errors doesn't help when the default fallback is Win1252 and everything decodes with zero errors
  191. # [10:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: If the other encoding also decodes with zero errors? I know that it will always decode with zero with the fallback.
  192. # [10:18] * Philip` doesn't even know whether he's currently decoding pages correctly using the current algorithm, and doesn't know an easy way to test it
  193. # [10:18] <Philip`> (I think I attempt to put the content-type charset into some stream object and then let the validator.nu parser sort it out, or something, but it seems to go wrong in a lot of cases)
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  210. # [11:25] * mikeke is now known as mikekelly
  211. # [11:25] <smaug> Hixie: do you have plans to fix history session in HTML5? I'll propose something if I figure out how I'd like it to work.
  212. # [11:26] <Hixie> i wasn't aware that it was broken
  213. # [11:26] <Hixie> if it's broken, then i plan to fix it
  214. # [11:27] <smaug> Hixie: I sent an email about it
  215. # [11:27] <Hixie> ah then i have plans to read and respond to your e-mail, yes
  216. # [11:27] <Hixie> it'll be in my queue somewhere
  217. # [11:28] <Hixie> is it urgent?
  218. # [11:28] <smaug> it doesn't explain how iframe history works in previous top level pages
  219. # [11:28] <Hixie> (i plan to basically respond to all outstanding bugs and e-mails by the end of the month)
  220. # [11:28] <smaug> well, I'd like to implement it, like now :)
  221. # [11:29] <Hixie> ah ok
  222. # [11:29] <Hixie> let me see if i can give you a preliminary answer
  223. # [11:32] <Hixie> do you know if there are compatibility concerns here?
  224. # [11:33] * Quits: archtech (n=sv@83.228.56.37)
  225. # [11:33] <Hixie> looks like IE8 does what the spec says right?
  226. # [11:34] <smaug> browsers implement go() in different ways, so perhaps no compatibility concerns
  227. # [11:34] <smaug> IE8 is quite close
  228. # [11:34] <smaug> those its back button doesn't map to go() handling. Maybe that is UA dependent thing
  229. # [11:35] <smaug> s/those/though/
  230. # [11:36] <smaug> Hixie: still, what in the spec explains that the previous top level page should load latest iframe document?
  231. # [11:37] <roc> dammit
  232. # [11:37] <smaug> the draft doesn't really say anything about what should happen to sub-browsing contexts when previous top level page is loaded
  233. # [11:38] <roc> I thought I found an ambiguity in the spec, but I was wrong
  234. # [11:38] <Hixie> what IE8 does seems to have security advantages, though it does mean that for go(x) where |x| > 1 the back button doesn't match the API
  235. # [11:38] <Hixie> dunno if that's a problem
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  237. # [11:39] <Hixie> smaug: hold on, minor cat emergency
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  240. # [11:41] <roc> is it documented what the owner document is for an element created with "new Audio()"?
  241. # [11:44] <zcorpan_> roc: what happens for new Image()?
  242. # [11:44] <roc> no idea
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  244. # [11:45] <roc> I *assume* that you use the document of the current global object, which must be a Window
  245. # [11:45] <roc> I'm not JS-savvy enough to know if you can get into a situation where there is no Window in scope
  246. # [11:46] <roc> but the spec doesn't seem to say, or if it does, I don't know where
  247. # [11:46] <othermaciej> the spec doesn't say what the owner document should be (very clearly)
  248. # [11:47] <othermaciej> it should say invoking the Audio constructor is equivalent to document.createElement() followed by setting some attributes
  249. # [11:47] <othermaciej> or something like that
  250. # [11:47] <roc> it can't say that since 'document' might refer to something strange
  251. # [11:48] * zcorpan_ files a bug
  252. # [11:48] <smaug> roc: yeah, at least gecko finds the document from caller and uses that as owner document
  253. # [11:50] <Hixie> smaug: ok back
  254. # [11:51] <Hixie> smaug: assuming we do go with the IE8 model, then a literal reading of the spec would mean that when you go back, you just end up in whatever state you happened to last be when that top-level browsing context last had that document active
  255. # [11:51] <Hixie> smaug: which means that if you were to go to A-2, then fast-forward to B-2, then go(-2), you should end up at A-2 again
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  258. # [11:52] <Hixie> smaug: even though going go(+1) from there would take you to A-3
  259. # [11:52] <Hixie> smaug: and then going go(+1) again would take you to B-2, not B-1
  260. # [11:52] <roc> smaug: do you happen to know what happens if we call new Audio in a context where there is no document? like say a JS XPCOM component? (this is obviously beyond the realm of HTML5)
  261. # [11:52] <Hixie> i guess we should see what IE does with those cases
  262. # [11:52] <smaug> roc: I don't think that is supported
  263. # [11:53] <roc> ok, but what happens? :-)
  264. # [11:53] <smaug> roc: calling the constructor fails
  265. # [11:53] <Hixie> smaug: can you stick a javascript:go(-2) and a javascript:go(+1) to A-2, A-3, B-1, and B-2?
  266. # [11:53] <roc> ok
  267. # [11:54] * smaug boots a windows machine
  268. # [11:54] <Hixie> woo, IE8 does do what i said for the first thing i described
  269. # [11:54] <Hixie> the go(-2) case where you navigated the history as i described
  270. # [11:55] <Hixie> and then clicking forward from A-2 goes to A-3, and from there goes to B-2
  271. # [11:55] <Hixie> and clicking back there goes to B-1
  272. # [11:55] <Hixie> not saying that's the most understandable UI
  273. # [11:55] <Hixie> but it does match what I'd expect the API to do per the spec
  274. # [11:55] <smaug> Hixie: but the go(-3) goes to the startpage in my testcase
  275. # [11:56] <Hixie> right, it would
  276. # [11:56] <Hixie> because the subframes aren't in the joint history
  277. # [11:56] <Hixie> the subframes of the inactive documents, i mean
  278. # [11:56] <smaug> and still, where does the draft say what the iframes should load when going back in top level page?
  279. # [11:57] <Hixie> well there are two possible cases:
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  281. # [11:57] <Hixie> 1. bfcache is active, doc is in the cache: you just show it as it was, unchanged
  282. # [11:57] <smaug> that is easy
  283. # [11:57] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  284. # [11:57] <smaug> that is why I disable bfcache
  285. # [11:57] <smaug> at least for gecko
  286. # [11:57] <smaug> but without bfcache
  287. # [11:58] <smaug> (btw, do all the browsers have something like? maybe chrome doesn't, at least its back-forward is slower than in other browsers)
  288. # [11:59] <Hixie> 2. doc was evicted from bfcache, and you have to refetch the document and rerender it and so forth: the iframes are considered "persisted user state" which the UA is allowed to resync
  289. # [11:59] <Hixie> i should probably spec that in more detail
  290. # [12:00] <smaug> and how can the browser know which iframe loads which page?
  291. # [12:00] <Hixie> beats me
  292. # [12:00] <Hixie> how does firefox do it?
  293. # [12:00] <Hixie> the most obvious solution is to serialise the state of each frame's frames[] hierarchy
  294. # [12:01] <smaug> gecko has a tree of browsing contexts
  295. # [12:01] <smaug> or tree of session histories
  296. # [12:01] <Hixie> and just walk down the tree as each one onloads, navigating its subframes accordingly
  297. # [12:01] <Hixie> but how does it map them to iframes?
  298. # [12:01] <smaug> but the way it is implemented doesn't work well with dynamic iframe additions/removals
  299. # [12:02] <smaug> it tries to map session history tree to browsing context tree
  300. # [12:02] <smaug> and with dynamic iframe additions/removals that isn't always right
  301. # [12:02] <smaug> ...and that is what I'm trying to fix
  302. # [12:03] <smaug> but I'd like to fix it to do something which is actually spec'ed somewhere
  303. # [12:03] <Hixie> what do other UAs do?
  304. # [12:04] <smaug> not sure.
  305. # [12:04] <smaug> well, webkit's go() handling is already so strange that it is difficult to test
  306. # [12:06] <smaug> but as a starting point I'd like to understand how go() should work
  307. # [12:06] <smaug> and then figure out what to do with dynamic changes
  308. # [12:07] <Hixie> well the spec doesn't really say what to do with iframes when reloading a document evicted from the bfcache (or never stored in the first place)
  309. # [12:07] * Joins: ukai (n=ukai@220.109.219.244)
  310. # [12:07] <Hixie> i'm more or less happy to spec anything you come up with, if it's sane and/or matches implementations and/or legacy content expectations
  311. # [12:08] <smaug> ok, I'll continue testing
  312. # [12:08] <Hixie> for things in the bfcache, it seems the spec matches IE8, which is good
  313. # [12:08] <Hixie> so i'd like to standardise on that
  314. # [12:09] <Hixie> it seems to make sense and is relatively easy to describe
  315. # [12:09] <smaug> yeah, I haven't seen anything in IE8's behavior that I'm against at. (except its back button functionality)
  316. # [12:10] <Hixie> well the back button and the go() API don't have to match, so you're welcome to make that work however you like
  317. # [12:11] <smaug> does anyone know how to disable bfcache in IE? Would unload handler be enough?
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  320. # [12:29] <zcorpan_> i wonder what i'm doing wrong with getting a webkit nightly to run with safari on windows
  321. # [12:30] <zcorpan_> run-nightly-webkit.cmd doesn't do anything, and FindSafari.exe gives an error message saying some configuration is wrong
  322. # [12:30] <annevk2> did you run the install script?
  323. # [12:30] * annevk2 remembers some exe file
  324. # [12:30] <annevk2> oh, dunno then
  325. # [12:31] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-206-169.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  326. # [12:33] <zcorpan_> if i paste the contents of the extracted folder into the Safari folder and replace the files, then FindSafari.exe and run-nightly-webkit.cmd still do the same thing and Safari.exe stops working
  327. # [12:34] <annevk2> nuke all and start over?
  328. # [12:34] <zcorpan_> still same result
  329. # [12:34] <annevk2> ask in #webkit?
  330. # [12:34] <zcorpan_> k
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  332. # [12:51] <hsivonen> another nail in the coffin of conneg: https://twitter.com/glazou/statuses/4705685278
  333. # [12:55] <gsnedders> Single language keywords in indexes pose a problem for HTTP conneg?
  334. # [12:56] <gsnedders> Or am I proving I'm half-asleep at the moment, under the theory I can't do any language when half asleep?
  335. # [12:56] <hsivonen> crawlers presumably index only one of the language alternatives
  336. # [12:56] <gsnedders> Ah, that sort of index
  337. # [12:56] <gsnedders> I was thinking of the sort of index that CSS 2.1 has of various terms
  338. # [12:56] <gsnedders> (which has no problems with conneg)
  339. # [12:57] <hsivonen> the kind of conneg that works is gzip conneg.
  340. # [12:57] <hsivonen> which arguably is an architectural error
  341. # [12:57] * Quits: jacobolu_ (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0059871802-99-6d.client.student.harvard.edu) ("Leaving...")
  342. # [12:57] <hsivonen> shoud be a characteristic of the HTTP hop--not the representation
  343. # [12:58] <hsivonen> should
  344. # [12:59] <jgraham> HTTP hop?
  345. # [12:59] <gsnedders> A hop and a jump, obviously.
  346. # [12:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: origin server to intermediary or intermediary to intermediary or intermediary to client
  347. # [13:00] <jgraham> Hmm I don't clearly see what alternative you are proposing
  348. # [13:01] <jgraham> (for some definition of proposing which means "not proposing but suggesting might have been better in the first place")
  349. # [13:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: Transfer-Encoding
  350. # [13:02] <jgraham> Ah
  351. # [13:02] <gsnedders> (Quick! Music suggestions!)
  352. # [13:04] <jgraham> The minute waltz is quite a quick piece of music
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  368. # [13:53] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attributes-0
  369. # [13:53] <Hixie> doesn't include global attributes
  370. # [13:53] <Hixie> file bugs with problems!
  371. # [13:53] <Hixie> bed time now
  372. # [13:53] <Hixie> nn
  373. # [14:02] * annevk2 still wonders whether this is generated or not
  374. # [14:03] <annevk2> default value might be nice (i.e. what happens if omitted)
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  379. # [14:20] <hsivonen> are chaals' parisweb slides available online yet?
  380. # [14:21] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt)
  381. # [14:22] <Philip`> hsivonen: Hop-based compression sounds bad for deployability, since to add a new compression method you need everybody on your HTTP path to support it, rather than just getting servers and clients to cooperate
  382. # [14:24] <Philip`> But I suppose it's necessary in order to get sane behaviour from proxies
  383. # [14:24] * Quits: mitnavn (n=mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn)
  384. # [14:25] <Philip`> (particularly with partial downloads etc)
  385. # [14:27] * Quits: boblet (n=boblet@p1254-ipbf304osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  386. # [14:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: no, with per-hop compression, you get benefits even if one hop is compressed
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  390. # [14:45] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: woah, i was completely unaware of createHTMLDocument
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  393. # [14:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: it's a bit scary how the functionality has been discussed here before and people have appeared to be unaware
  394. # [14:53] <hsivonen> (I was unaware until today)
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  400. # [15:20] <othermaciej> wait, is createHTMLDocument a real public method? cause when we were discussing it the other day I saw it in the WebKit source and I assumed it was an extension of some kind
  401. # [15:20] * Joins: yutak_home (n=kee@M006079.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  402. # [15:20] <othermaciej> ah, HTMLDOMImplementation
  403. # [15:21] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it seems it's a real public method that was axed from specs between DOM Level 2 HTML CR and REC
  404. # [15:21] <othermaciej> I see
  405. # [15:22] <othermaciej> WebKit's IDL claims it is real but I didn't see it in the spec
  406. # [15:22] <othermaciej> HTML5 should spec it IMO
  407. # [15:22] <Philip`> "... our first Last Call ... a second Last Call ..." - this must be a new meaning of 'last' with which I was previously unfamiliar
  408. # [15:23] <othermaciej> Philip`: W3C Process makes it highly unlikely that a large spec of wide interest could have just one
  409. # [15:24] <Philip`> The process seems sensible, it's just that the naming doesn't quite :-)
  410. # [15:24] <othermaciej> we can rename it Awesome Call if you'd like
  411. # [15:25] <othermaciej> what browsers support createHTMLDocument?
  412. # [15:25] <hsivonen> othermaciej: Opera and WebKit have it (as non-undefined)
  413. # [15:25] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-75-244.dynamic.amis.net)
  414. # [15:25] <hsivonen> othermaciej: undefined in Gecko
  415. # [15:26] <hsivonen> othermaciej: didn't test IE
  416. # [15:26] <hsivonen> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/266
  417. # [15:28] <othermaciej> damn, I was halfway through filing a bug on createHTMLDocument when I remembered that I should follow what I said about what goes in a bug report
  418. # [15:28] <gsnedders> othermaciej: I'd say it should be in Web DOM Core
  419. # [15:28] <gsnedders> But nobody's working on that, so that's mainly a theoretical concern
  420. # [15:28] <annevk2> it seems very HTML-specific
  421. # [15:28] <othermaciej> gsnedders: it was originally a DOM2HTML method... I could see the argument either way I suppose
  422. # [15:29] <annevk2> so if you don't want a normative dependency on DOM Core putting it in HTML5 makes sense
  423. # [15:29] <gsnedders> We're going to end up with HTML specific stuff in DOM Core if we want to avoid having HTML 5 contradicting DOM Core
  424. # [15:29] <gsnedders> (See IRC logs from yesterday)
  425. # [15:30] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
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  428. # [15:32] <othermaciej> filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7842
  429. # [15:32] <othermaciej> feel free to add comments if you think it should go in Web DOM Core instead
  430. # [15:33] <othermaciej> I would feel better about that approach if Web DOM Core was under active development
  431. # [15:34] <gsnedders> Right, as Web DOM Core isn't, I don't feel very strongly eitehr way
  432. # [15:37] * jgraham would generally feel better if WDC was under active development
  433. # [15:39] <annevk2> now and then I'm somewhat tempted to pick it up, but I already dropped the ball on CSSOM and hardly have time
  434. # [15:41] <othermaciej> oops, didn't see the whatwg email, I guess my bug is somewhat redundant
  435. # [15:43] <jgraham> Yeah now and then I'm somewhat tempted to pick it up but I guess I don't need more to (not) do at the weekend
  436. # [15:48] <othermaciej> speaking of specs in need of editing action, Web IDL might need a co-editor, given the time pressure due to dependencies and the fact that heycam has been super busy for a while
  437. # [15:48] <hsivonen> hmm. am I testing wrong or does IE8 not even have createDocument?
  438. # [15:48] <othermaciej> unlike Web DOM Core and CSSOM, that could block things from progressing
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  440. # [15:49] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i think ie8 doesn't have createDocument
  441. # [15:51] <hsivonen> at times I'm surprised how wide the IE and everything else chasm is, even though I should know better not to be surprised anymore
  442. # [15:51] <othermaciej> in a way, it's because IE did too well at Browser War 1.0
  443. # [15:52] <othermaciej> they embraced and extended so far, that it was way easier to clone Mozilla's behavior than theirs
  444. # [15:53] <TabAtkins> Worse Is Better, essentially?
  445. # [15:53] <othermaciej> I don't know if it was fair to say Gecko was "Worse" than Trident
  446. # [15:54] <hsivonen> part of the story is that the de jure specs were notable different from both IE and Netscape 4
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  448. # [15:54] <othermaciej> it just had fewer inexplicably complex quirks, fewer super complex proprietary technologies that you have to implement to work with their code path, and source you can look at
  449. # [15:55] <hsivonen> and Mozilla went pretty far following the de jure specs instead of getting the specs changed to match what was out there already
  450. # [15:55] <othermaciej> basically there were a lot of cases where we could have chosen to implement IE behavior instead of Mozilla behavior in WebKit, but only if we were also willing to implement ActiveX, VBScript, VML...
  451. # [15:55] <othermaciej> that is true as well - having the specs on your side helps with evangelism I guess
  452. # [15:56] <hsivonen> in retrospect, I wish the idea of changing the specs to match reality had been discovered early enough to avoid the Almost Standards Mode and <p><table>
  453. # [15:56] <jgraham> The size of this gap seems to create a problem for the spec now as people occasionally try to throw an idea right down the middle of the chasm
  454. # [15:57] <othermaciej> but our early strategy for Safari was much more "copy Gecko" than "follow standards", and largely because IE successfully made it really hard to copy them
  455. # [15:57] <jgraham> On the basis that anything closer to the WebKit Gecko Presto side wouldn't be implementable in IE
  456. # [15:57] <jgraham> But you end up with something that is implementable in nheither
  457. # [15:57] <jgraham> *neither
  458. # [15:58] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: and standards mode
  459. # [15:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: that, too
  460. # [15:59] * hsivonen sees no value in toggling unitless number parsing behavior and class case-sensitivity
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  462. # [16:02] <othermaciej> some standards mode changes seem gratuitous
  463. # [16:02] <othermaciej> but some quirks mode quirks are pretty messed up
  464. # [16:03] <othermaciej> I can understand the temptation to get away from all that
  465. # [16:03] <hsivonen> not inheriting to tables is messed up
  466. # [16:03] <hsivonen> but having to write table { quirks: none; } would probably be a better switch that the doctype
  467. # [16:03] <hsivonen> *than
  468. # [16:04] <othermaciej> true
  469. # [16:04] <othermaciej> one of the annoying things about quirks mode is that it switches so many different things
  470. # [16:05] <annevk2> fortunately we can make it a fixed list when we realize what all the quirks are and never extend them
  471. # [16:06] <zcorpan_> ...other than for having things consistent in the quirks mode (e.g. getElementsByClassName and case-sensitivity)
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  475. # [16:13] <annevk2> true :/
  476. # [16:13] <annevk2> though classList is not consistent
  477. # [16:14] <annevk2> it would prolly have made more sense to define that classes are always interned to lowercase in quirks mode and that comparisons are case-sensitive
  478. # [16:14] <annevk2> but that requires changes to CSS too
  479. # [16:15] <TabAtkins> Anyone who uses uppercase in their classes is a weirdo anyway.
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  481. # [16:16] <jgraham> class=ImSaneAndHaveACertificateToProveIt
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  486. # [16:24] <hsivonen> Either I've broken the parser or the AOL front page has an *insane* number of <script> elements
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  489. # [16:30] <hsivonen> wow. looks like CNN latest news list has a script per line or something like that
  490. # [16:32] <lmorchard> Rendering that timestamp just so is a job best left to the client, apparently
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  494. # [16:35] <hsivonen> the good news is that even though both AOL and CNN have a large number of scripts on the front page, they don't document.write() unbalanced trees
  495. # [16:35] <hsivonen> all speculations seem to succeed
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  510. # [17:25] <TabAtkins> What's a decent feature-test for <details> support?
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  513. # [17:30] <jgraham> details.open !== undefined
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  515. # [17:32] <TabAtkins> See, that's what I thought, but it's throwing a "details is not defined" error in FF.
  516. # [17:33] <jgraham> you did var details = document.getElementsByTagName("details")[0]?
  517. # [17:33] <TabAtkins> Of course not, because I am dumb.
  518. # [17:33] <jgraham> var details = document.createElement("details")
  519. # [17:34] <jgraham> +or
  520. # [17:35] <TabAtkins> All right, works. :facepalm:
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  526. # [17:51] <TabAtkins> Yay for tantek's "A Study of Regular Polygons". Now my details support is complete without using any images.
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  535. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> Hey, Tantek, I just (about half an hour ago) made good use of your regular polygons while implementing details support. Thanks. ^_^
  536. # [18:11] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.228)
  537. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> (Used it on detail>dt::before for the toggler arrow.)
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  552. # [18:51] <gsnedders> Why does javascript:alert(document.createElement("iframe").contentDocument) output null/undefined? Because the iframe hasn't loaded yet? Shouldn't it default to about:blank?
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  554. # [18:59] <gsnedders> Hmm, needs to be added to the document to render
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  556. # [19:00] <gsnedders> s/to render/to not be null/
  557. # [19:00] <gsnedders> Even if a child of head, for example
  558. # [19:00] <gsnedders> Odd
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  560. # [19:05] <gsnedders> Oh, even odder. In Opera, if it is in a script before <body> then it is always null.
  561. # [19:05] <annevk42> what does HTML5 say?
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  563. # [19:05] <gsnedders> If it (the script) is after body it works even if the iframe is put in head
  564. # [19:06] <gsnedders> annevk42: I've been looking, and I'm not quite sure. As far as I can tell it says that it should never return null and always the document
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  568. # [19:08] <gsnedders> (If someone could confirm whether I'm right/wrong about HTML 5 it'd be nice)
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  578. # [19:43] * annevk42 looks
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  585. # [19:56] <tantek> TabAtkins - good to hear! Do you have a URL to share?
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  662. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> tantek: You want a permanent url, or is a temporary good enough? The actual usage is on an intranet app that's behind a password, but I can either turn off the password temporarily, or just duplicate the page entirely.
  663. # [22:29] <tantek> I'd say better to duplicate (perhaps a simplified version) of the page to keep public as part of your portfolio
  664. # [22:29] <tantek> so others can benefit from the techniques as wwell
  665. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> k, one moment.
  666. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> tantek: http://www.xanthir.com/etc/details/
  667. # [22:33] <tantek> nice!
  668. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> It works in IE8, but not very smoothly. Dunno why.
  669. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> That reminds me, there are a few other clever tricks I've been meaning to show off that are locked behind intranet pages here at work. I'll get a few of those uploaded today.
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  678. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> tantek: Frex, here's me putting the "hidden radio buttons" trick to work to simplify a giant list - http://www.xanthir.com/etc/hidden-radios/
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  693. # [23:14] <daedb> TabAtkins: that's a neat trick :)
  694. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> Can't take full credit - I learned it from Brad Kemper. But I do think the use I put it to is pretty clever. ^_^
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  706. # [23:38] <Hixie> annevk2: no, it's all manually generated
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  714. # Session Close: Fri Oct 09 00:00:00 2009

The end :)