/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 14 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [06:44] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  7. # [06:44] * Set by annevk3 on Wed Sep 09 23:23:54
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  11. # [08:45] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  12. # [08:45] * Set by annevk3 on Wed Sep 09 23:23:54
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  16. # [08:56] <hsivonen> hmm. www.w3.org is really slow today
  17. # [08:58] <Lachy> hsivonen, that's probably because they apparently launched the new design for their homepage today, so everyone is looking at it
  18. # [09:01] <hsivonen> the new design looks quite nice, but I suspect they aren't respecting my font size pref
  19. # [09:08] * Quits: annevk42 (n=annevk@c-c604e353.13-500-64736c15.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
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  22. # [09:15] * hsivonen wonders if anyone has data on whether it's feasible to get rid of the SVG load event given existing content
  23. # [09:15] <hsivonen> of course there's no SVG-in-text/html existing content
  24. # [09:15] <hsivonen> but it seems bad to zap it only on the text/html side
  25. # [09:17] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-233-2.bredband.comhem.se)
  26. # [09:26] <hsivonen> reading http://www.xmltoday.org/content/coming-html-5-train-wreck did "the biggest names in XML - from Uche Ogbuji and Micah Dubinko to Liam Quin" ever send their proposal to the HTML WG or the WHATWG?
  27. # [09:26] * Quits: GPHemsley (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  28. # [09:26] <hsivonen> the proposal that was on xml-dev didn't fall "on completely deaf ears", since I replied
  29. # [09:27] <hsivonen> (assuming, of course, that I'm part of the HTML5 community)
  30. # [09:27] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  31. # [09:27] <hsivonen> and why might it be appropriate to put stuff like "the rich white (primarily American) boys that make up the committee" in the article?
  32. # [09:29] <hsivonen> that is, why would it be appropriate to refer to the wealth, color, nationality, age or gender of the people who make up "the committee"?
  33. # [09:29] <Hixie> primarily american?
  34. # [09:29] <Hixie> are _any_ of us american? :-)
  35. # [09:30] <annevk2> if anything we're biased towards Europe I think
  36. # [09:31] * Joins: mitnavn (n=mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn)
  37. # [09:32] <annevk2> hsivonen, would be great if we could zap the load event imo
  38. # [09:32] <annevk2> hsivonen, I don't think it makes a lot of sense
  39. # [09:32] <heycam> ok i'm going on my few-month break now
  40. # [09:33] <heycam> i'll see you all on irc next year some time! :)
  41. # [09:33] * Quits: nessy (n=Adium@203-158-45-196.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("Leaving.")
  42. # [09:33] <annevk2> heycam, good luck!
  43. # [09:33] <hsivonen> heycam: see you!
  44. # [09:33] <heycam> erik will be mailing in the svgwg's comments on the svg-in-text/html stuff some time soon
  45. # [09:33] <heycam> annevk2, thanks!
  46. # [09:33] <heycam> later
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  52. # [09:42] * Hixie comments on the article
  53. # [09:42] <Hixie> i like where he refers to a "recent WHATWG meeting"
  54. # [09:43] <Hixie> are you guys having meetings without telling me?
  55. # [09:43] <annevk2> you don't know about #secrettreehouse?
  56. # [09:43] <annevk2> I guess someone has been masquerading as Hixie then...
  57. # [09:43] <Hixie> hah
  58. # [09:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: I thought the implication that it's OK to refer to wealth, color, nationality, age and gender was so inappropriate that I figured I wouldn't start correcting which parts were factually incorrect and to what degree
  59. # [09:44] <Hixie> oh i didn't correct him
  60. # [09:44] * Quits: riven (n=colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  62. # [09:45] <Hixie> i just said that given where we started (the web today), that if our endpoint is a mere trainwreck, i'll be happy!
  63. # [09:46] <hsivonen> I don't understand why people are still concerned about processing HTML using an XML parser
  64. # [09:46] <hsivonen> if one considers the entire stack, putting an HTML parser in there is a small part
  65. # [09:46] <Hixie> because for years that was put forward as the panacea
  66. # [09:47] <Hixie> and people don't like having to consider changing their world view
  67. # [09:47] <annevk2> I wonder how often he predicted something that's accurate
  68. # [09:48] <Lachy> wtf? Whoever wrote that article seems absolutely clueless about boolean (or, as he calls them, "binary") attributes, and how to use them in XML, and yet he's an XML proponent?!
  69. # [09:48] <annevk2> there was a site to log stuff like this so we can verify in the future if the person was indeed right or just sharing bullshit
  70. # [09:49] <Hixie> hsivonen: just consider the way organised religion (the poster child for sticking to a position beyond it's sell-by date) handled change in the paste, e.g. galileo
  71. # [09:49] <Hixie> in the past
  72. # [09:49] <Lachy> "What has emerged as a result of this "process" is a standard that seems to incorporate just those features that seem to appeal most to the rich white (primarily American) boys that make up the committee"
  73. # [09:49] <Hixie> not the paste
  74. # [09:49] <Lachy> WTF? Who among us in the WHATWG is actually an american?
  75. # [09:50] <Hixie> i'm sure _some_ of us are!
  76. # [09:50] <Hixie> isn't shelley american?
  77. # [09:50] <Hixie> and hey, i consider that quote better than what most people complain about -- usually they say the spec says just what _I_ want
  78. # [09:50] <Hixie> at least this time he suggested you all were to blame too!
  79. # [09:50] <Lachy> yeah, but I can't think of who. At least, none of us who would be considered to be in the "cabal" are American
  80. # [09:50] <Lachy> oh, mjs maybe
  81. # [09:50] <annevk2> no dude
  82. # [09:50] <annevk2> mjs is Polish
  83. # [09:50] <Hixie> he's turkish or something
  84. # [09:50] <Hixie> polish
  85. # [09:50] <Hixie> right
  86. # [09:51] <Hixie> tantek is turkish
  87. # [09:51] <annevk2> Chris_Wilson on the other hand :)
  88. # [09:52] <gsnedders> I mean, there are loads of guys in the USA called Anne
  89. # [09:52] <gsnedders> Obviously we're all American.
  90. # [09:52] <gsnedders> We speak English, so obviously we're American.
  91. # [09:52] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-233-2.bredband.comhem.se)
  92. # [09:53] <Lachy> oh
  93. # [09:53] * Quits: nessy (n=Adium@203-158-45-196.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("Leaving.")
  94. # [09:56] <annevk2> I didn't realize before, but I guess in CSSOM I also need to define that the UA is to actually fetch resources linked from Link headers with rel set to stylesheet
  95. # [09:57] <Hixie> yeah
  96. # [09:57] <Hixie> xml-s too
  97. # [10:00] <annevk2> i see
  98. # [10:00] <annevk2> good times
  99. # [10:01] <Dashiva> Oh wow
  100. # [10:02] <Hixie> you could edit xml-s and write an RFC to define Link: rel=stylesheet processing to move it out of CSSOM :-)
  101. # [10:02] <annevk2> i'll keep it simple, thanks :)
  102. # [10:02] * Joins: foolip_ (n=philip@pat.se.opera.com)
  103. # [10:04] <Dashiva> I remember we tried to find an American whatwg teamster before, but nobody was found
  104. # [10:05] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  105. # [10:06] <Dashiva> Haha, "The WHATWG was not formed by a standards body. It was a small coalition of AJAX developers"
  106. # [10:07] <roc> no, it's a coalition of browser developers
  107. # [10:07] <roc> no, it's Google
  108. # [10:07] <annevk2> lol, that article sounds like a joke
  109. # [10:07] <annevk2> maybe I should read it
  110. # [10:07] <roc> you really shouldn't
  111. # [10:07] <roc> you especially shouldn't read the comments
  112. # [10:08] <annevk2> you realize you make things more tempting right? anyway, I'll go back to editing CSSOM for now
  113. # [10:08] <roc> this is pretty cool
  114. # [10:08] <roc> http://labs.thecssninja.com/font_dragr/
  115. # [10:10] <Dashiva> annevk2: Seriously, it's weird. It's like this massive conspiracy theory, but all the posts are old men.
  116. # [10:10] <Dashiva> Well, the pictures next to the posts :)
  117. # [10:10] <Hixie> don't forget, google is supporting html5 because it would have been too expensive for google to support xhtml2 in adsense!
  118. # [10:10] <Dashiva> Actually, that's amusing. That XML is the old man technology now.
  119. # [10:11] <Hixie> (that's still my favourite html5 conspiracy theory)
  120. # [10:11] <Dashiva> Hixie: No, they're supporting HTML5 because with XHTML2 the internet would automatically become semantic and nobody would need Google anymore, they'd just RDF their way to pages!
  121. # [10:11] <Hixie> anyone object to making setting src="" imply a call to load() on <video> and <audio>?
  122. # [10:11] <annevk2> Dashiva, maybe we should make a theory up around that
  123. # [10:11] <Hixie> even if the element isn't in the document or is already playing?
  124. # [10:11] <Hixie> (roc, particularly interested in your opinion on that)
  125. # [10:11] <annevk2> foolip, ^^
  126. # [10:11] <Hixie> foolip_ too, indeed
  127. # [10:12] <hsivonen> roc: wow. that's cool. Is it all spec-based?
  128. # [10:12] <roc> hsivonen: I haven't inspected it, but I think it's claiming to be
  129. # [10:13] <Dashiva> I wonder how long until the replies appear on the post
  130. # [10:13] <roc> Hixie: it sounds reasonable to me
  131. # [10:13] <roc> Hixie: although I don't keep the resource selection algorithm in my head so I may miss something subtle
  132. # [10:15] <Hixie> k
  133. # [10:15] <Hixie> well i can always change it back
  134. # [10:15] <Hixie> but we got a couple of complaints that setting src="" while it was playing didn't do anything
  135. # [10:15] <Hixie> so this seems like it would at least give them more feedback
  136. # [10:15] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: Get the bounce for what message-id?
  137. # [10:15] <Hixie> (since it would stop the video)
  138. # [10:15] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: I got several emails from you overnight
  139. # [10:15] <Hixie> gsnedders|work: um, i dunno, i deleted it like hours ago
  140. # [10:16] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: I guessed that :P
  141. # [10:16] <foolip_> Hixie: I was just going to reply to that on public-html-comments
  142. # [10:17] * Joins: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@garage.upstruct.com)
  143. # [10:17] <foolip_> Hixie: I think it makes sense, no objections if all the details are sorted out properly
  144. # [10:17] <Hixie> foolip_: k
  145. # [10:17] <Hixie> foolip_: i'm replying to the thread now
  146. # [10:17] <Hixie> foolip_: so hold off and see my reply and let me know if i missed something :-)
  147. # [10:17] <Lachy> "... a small coalition of AJAX developers, most of whom couldn't give a fig for XML" - maybe he forgot that the X in AJAX stands for XML, cause that just doesn't make sense.
  148. # [10:19] <hsivonen> I wonder if people who think we don't care about XML noticed all the Infoset coercion stuff and generally trying hard to make stuff work sanely in both lands
  149. # [10:19] <hsivonen> of course, then RDFa comes along and ruins it
  150. # [10:21] <foolip_> Hixie: also, can we make it explicit what happens if the src attribute is removed (for <img> too if it hasn't been done, implementations vary)
  151. # [10:21] <Dashiva> Lachy: No, it stands for JXSON
  152. # [10:22] <hsivonen> aside: how people view RDFa reveals who belongs to the bits-on-the-wire school of XML and who belongs to the Infoset school of XML.
  153. # [10:22] <Dashiva> Isn't document.all === undefined a red herring, nobody should be using document.all in new code
  154. # [10:23] <Hixie> foolip_: already explicit for <video> (nothing special happens)
  155. # [10:23] <Hixie> foolip_: i'll do it for <img> too
  156. # [10:23] <annevk2> Dashiva, the discussion is about old code
  157. # [10:23] <Hixie> looks like kurt cagle is an xforms user (based on posts to mozilla's xforms newsgroups)
  158. # [10:23] <Hixie> (in 2006)
  159. # [10:24] <foolip_> Hixie: thanks
  160. # [10:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: he is an xml-dev regular
  161. # [10:24] <Hixie> in 2005 i rejected one of his ideas for xbl2 (namely to use xslt instead)
  162. # [10:25] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  163. # [10:25] <Dashiva> annevk2: No, === is about people using jslint, which implies the code is being maintained
  164. # [10:25] <Hixie> OHHH!
  165. # [10:25] <Hixie> Kurt Cagle is the reason XBL2 split off from sXBL!
  166. # [10:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: URL?
  167. # [10:26] <Hixie> not really his fault, but he was the catalyst
  168. # [10:26] <Hixie> hold on
  169. # [10:26] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/41386042.20050901045702@w3.org
  170. # [10:26] <jgraham> Dashiva: It seems like the idea is that people might JSLint old code or have mixed old/new code or something
  171. # [10:26] <jgraham> I think changing === is a bad idea though
  172. # [10:28] <roc> ah, the bad old days
  173. # [10:28] <jgraham> Brendan's proposal 3b + typeof document.all == "undefined" seems like a reasonable solution
  174. # [10:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: oh. that kind of reason. Interesting.
  175. # [10:28] <Dashiva> jgraham: Well, if you update the code you'll also realize the breakage was from your update
  176. # [10:28] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
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  178. # [10:29] <jgraham> Dashiva: depends where you test after the update.
  179. # [10:29] <jgraham> If you only test in IE and Firefox you won't notice that you broke Opera + Webkit iirc
  180. # [10:30] <Dashiva> But isn't this all assuming that FF would align with the spec?
  181. # [10:30] <Dashiva> So you'd notice it in any non-IE browser
  182. # [10:30] <jgraham> I mean at the moment
  183. # [10:30] <Hixie> jgraham: there seems to be some intermittent thing whereby the call to pms for the w3c version (with annotations) doesn't work every now and then, and i have to restart my script, at which point it works fine
  184. # [10:31] * Joins: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186)
  185. # [10:31] <jgraham> Hixie: Hmm. It sounds like something is occasionally timing out or something
  186. # [10:34] <hsivonen> is Web content relying on timeouts being able to call document.write on document.opened documents?
  187. # [10:35] * hsivonen wonders if anyone does sync XHR from an XBL constructor
  188. # [10:37] <roc> no
  189. # [10:37] <annevk2> hsivonen, Erik believes we do load pretty much like in HTML though we also dispatch SVGLoad at the moment
  190. # [10:37] <annevk2> hsivonen, so maybe SVG should be changed?
  191. # [10:38] <jgraham> roc: Which question was that a "no" to?
  192. # [10:38] <roc> that wasn't an answer, that was an exclamation
  193. # [10:38] <hsivonen> annevk2: given the data available to me (no data about existing content) I don't object to SVG changing
  194. # [10:39] <annevk2> hsivonen, maybe you should just propose that while you nuke support for the load event?
  195. # [10:39] <jgraham> roc: Ah. Sounds like a use case for an exclaimation mark then ;)
  196. # [10:39] <Dashiva> I know it's the web, but timeout-triggered document.write is mindboggling
  197. # [10:39] <annevk2> hsivonen, I've the feeling the SVG WG is ok nowadays with having more synergy with HTML
  198. # [10:39] <jgraham> timeout triggered document write sounds quite likely
  199. # [10:40] <jgraham> I mean crazy but...
  200. # [10:40] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  201. # [10:40] <Dashiva> jgraham: What's the use case?
  202. # [10:40] <roc> annevk2: of course, the WHATWG cabal has seized control of SVG too
  203. # [10:40] <roc> mwahahahaha
  204. # [10:40] <Hixie> we have?
  205. # [10:40] <Hixie> sweet
  206. # [10:40] <roc> yeah
  207. # [10:40] <Hixie> i must have missed that memo
  208. # [10:40] <roc> well, I have
  209. # [10:40] <Hixie> who's the editor!
  210. # [10:40] <Hixie> there are so many changes we can get through now!
  211. # [10:41] <Dashiva> You're the editor
  212. # [10:41] <Philip`> I think we should remove <circle/>
  213. # [10:41] <Dashiva> Or did you mean who the puppet is?
  214. # [10:41] <Philip`> I don't like circles
  215. # [10:41] <Philip`> They're too round
  216. # [10:41] <Hixie> <polygon> vs <polyline> would be my first choice amongst the shapes
  217. # [10:41] <hsivonen> roc: nice
  218. # [10:41] * Quits: Super-Dot (n=Super-Do@adsl-75-61-85-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) ("Colloquy more like Coolloquy")
  219. # [10:42] <Dashiva> Replace svg with <embed image.vml>
  220. # [10:43] <annevk2> roc, I'm sitting next to the co-chair at the moment of the SVG WG :)
  221. # [10:43] <Dashiva> chaals?
  222. # [10:43] <roc> Erik
  223. # [10:44] <roc> I presume
  224. # [10:44] <annevk2> yeah
  225. # [10:44] * Joins: nessy (n=Adium@203-158-45-196.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  226. # [10:45] <roc> WHATWG operative sits next to SVG WG co-chair, what more proof is needed?
  227. # [10:45] <Dashiva> Since we do we need proof anyhow?
  228. # [10:46] * Parts: mikekelly (i=mookid@ROFL.name)
  229. # [10:46] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt)
  230. # [10:47] <hsivonen> what creates a nested event loop other than sync XHR, alert(), confirm(), prompt(), print() and showModalDialog()?
  231. # [10:48] <Hixie> </script>
  232. # [10:48] <Hixie> in certain caises
  233. # [10:48] <annevk2> what do you mean with "nested"?
  234. # [10:48] <Hixie> cases, too
  235. # [10:48] <annevk2> that sounds Gecko-specific
  236. # [10:48] <hsivonen> right, </script>, too
  237. # [10:49] <Hixie> he means running a task while another is running
  238. # [10:49] <hsivonen> annevk2: I thought WebKit and Trident had nested event loops, too
  239. # [10:49] <Hixie> "spin the event loop", in html5 terms, i think
  240. # [10:49] <hsivonen> annevk2: maybe I'm totally wrong about that, though
  241. # [10:49] <annevk2> I suppose they might, but in HTML5 terms everything is blocked, no?
  242. # [10:50] <annevk2> at least for sync XHR the idea is that no events are dispatched etc.
  243. # [10:51] <hsivonen> the case I'm interested in is something dequeueing a JS timeout from an odd place
  244. # [10:51] <hsivonen> when the document has been document.opened()
  245. # [10:52] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  246. # [10:53] <hsivonen> After all, if one never document.close()s the document, it should, in principle, be safe to call document.write() from a timeout or interval
  247. # [10:54] <annevk2> in theory a timeout would always dispatch after the syncxhr or after alert() etc. afaik
  248. # [10:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: Is there a fundamental difference between a timeout and some other event here
  249. # [11:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: no fundamental difference between a timeout and event that are dispatched through the event loop
  250. # [11:00] <hsivonen> *events
  251. # [11:01] <hsivonen> do people document.write from arbitrary async event handlers?
  252. # [11:01] <jgraham> It isn't hard to imagine someone doing var doc = document.open(); document.onsomeevent = function() {doc.write("foo")}
  253. # [11:04] <hsivonen> that would be very sad
  254. # [11:04] <jgraham> Why? I mean it doesn't obviously look worse than document.write in general
  255. # [11:04] <hsivonen> it would be feasible to make document.write not tokenize synchronously in crazy cases, if crazy cases must be supported
  256. # [11:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: for the network stream case: I need the speculative parsing thread to know where potential document.write()-caused discontinuities can be
  257. # [11:06] * Quits: drunknbass_work (n=aaron@pool-71-107-253-243.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  258. # [11:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: for the document.open case: I don't want to be able to batch notifications (that notify layout that the DOM has changed)
  259. # [11:07] <hsivonen> jgraham: it would be bad to have potential discontinuity points all over the place
  260. # [11:11] <hsivonen> doh. I *do* want to be able to batch notifications
  261. # [11:12] * hsivonen sucks at cleaning up negations after editing a sentence.
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  266. # [11:37] <Hixie> roc, foolip_: i'm looking at the 'load' thread... any opinion on whether I should just make the progress events use Event instead of ProgressEvent so that there's no 'total' attribute to worry about?
  267. # [11:38] * Quits: lazni (n=lazni@113.22.49.132) ("Leaving.")
  268. # [11:39] <roc> I'd like that
  269. # [11:39] <roc> we won't be able to implement that immediately though
  270. # [11:39] <roc> and I don't know how much content would break :-(
  271. # [11:40] <Hixie> i've dropped NETWORK_LOADED, which had value 3; should I renumber NETWORK_NO_SOURCE from 4 to 3 or is that not worth it?
  272. # [11:40] <roc> (currently our own controls, and I think other people's controls, use progress 'loaded' and 'total' when they should be using 'buffered', since we don't support 'buffered' yet)
  273. # [11:40] <roc> implementing 'buffered' isn't hard, but there's some stuff we're in the middle of changing and we wanted to implement 'buffered' after that was done
  274. # [11:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: renumbering symbols that have shipped seems scary. those have shipped, right?
  275. # [11:41] * Quits: daedb (n=daed@h11n1fls34o986.telia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  276. # [11:41] <Hixie> i'm fine not renumbering if people think that's wiser
  277. # [11:41] <roc> hsivonen: renumbering symbols seems less scary than removing one
  278. # [11:41] <hsivonen> roc: OK
  279. # [11:41] <Hixie> (i'm not familiar with how widely this is supported)
  280. # [11:41] <roc> I think everyone supports these symbols
  281. # [11:42] <roc> Safari and Gecko will set NETWORK_LOADED in some situations, apparently Chrome never does except for files
  282. # [11:43] <Hixie> should i renumber NETWORK_NO_SOURCE though?
  283. # [11:43] <roc> I think it's probably OK to renumber NETWORK_NO_SOURCE to 3
  284. # [11:43] <Hixie> k
  285. # [11:43] <roc> and drop NETWORK_LOADED
  286. # [11:43] <roc> we'll see how it goes
  287. # [11:44] <roc> if there's a compat issue we might want to re-add NETWORK_LOADED with value 2
  288. # [11:44] <roc> I dunno
  289. # [11:44] <roc> hopefully not
  290. # [11:44] <Hixie> i assume you mean value 3
  291. # [11:44] <roc> no
  292. # [11:45] <Hixie> oh, i see what you mean
  293. # [11:45] <roc> hopefully we can just bludgeon on through
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  295. # [11:47] <Hixie> hm, making these not progress events will be more invasive than i expected. let's do that as a second patch in a second.
  296. # [11:47] <Hixie> load event first.
  297. # [11:47] <Hixie> actually if we readd LOADED it should be value 1, i think
  298. # [11:47] <Hixie> (IDLO)
  299. # [11:47] <Hixie> (IDLE, even)
  300. # [11:52] <roc> perhaps so
  301. # [12:02] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  302. # [12:02] <Hixie> is zcorpan anywhere nearby?
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  306. # [12:11] <jgraham> Hixie: I guess he might be responsive to email
  307. # [12:19] * Joins: Rik`_ (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  308. # [12:22] <foolip_> Hixie: I don't have a strong opinion on using progress events or not. They're not particularly useful, though.
  309. # [12:24] <foolip_> not exposing the size in bytes at all will save us an origin-check, I guess
  310. # [12:25] <foolip_> zcorpan is probably en route to the office
  311. # [12:26] <Hixie> i made them simple events
  312. # [12:26] <Hixie> and i replied to zcorpan by e-mail
  313. # [12:26] <Hixie> anyone here have an opinion on whether to remove the character encoding support for scripts in Workers?
  314. # [12:26] <Hixie> and just always use UTF-8?
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  316. # [12:27] <Lachy> sure, if it's not too late for browsers to drop support for other encodings in workers, I would
  317. # [12:29] <Hixie> anyone remember why i added support in the first place?
  318. # [12:32] * Quits: mitnavn (n=mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn) ("Leaving...")
  319. # [12:34] <roc> I thought the reason was that people might want to import existing scripts into a worker
  320. # [12:35] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: did you already have a demo that shows if document.close() tokenizes?
  321. # [12:35] <gsnedders|work> uh, somewhere
  322. # [12:39] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/272 if that's what you mean
  323. # [12:39] <Hixie> roc: seems likely... is that a good enough reason?
  324. # [12:39] <roc> I don't think so myself
  325. # [12:40] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: Or for the Gecko bug http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/273
  326. # [12:45] <annevk2> it would make sense to have text/worker or some such for worker scripts then
  327. # [12:46] <annevk2> at least to justify the different encoding rules, it can be ignored in practice I suppose
  328. # [12:47] <Hixie> the mime type is ignored anyway...
  329. # [12:50] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: thanks
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  331. # [12:55] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: I think that test case doesn't test the right thing
  332. # [12:55] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: I'm not sure what your meaning
  333. # [12:55] <gsnedders|work> (that you want to test)
  334. # [12:57] <hsivonen> If a document.write() doesn't fully tokenize its argument (due to nested script), I want to see if a subsequent .close() tokenizes what was left in the stream
  335. # [12:57] <gsnedders|work> ah, no, I don't have tests for that
  336. # [12:57] <hsivonen> ok. thanks
  337. # [12:57] <hsivonen> I'll write one
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  340. # [13:13] <hsivonen> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/276
  341. # [13:13] <hsivonen> fun results
  342. # [13:14] <hsivonen> I see different output in Firefox trunk with old parser, Firefox trunk with new parser, Safari 4 and Opera 10
  343. # [13:14] * hsivonen starts a VM for IE8
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  346. # [13:22] <hsivonen> grr. I wish IE told me what property or method is missing when I try to invoke something that doesn't exist in IE
  347. # [13:27] <hsivonen> Completely puzzled by IE's behavior
  348. # [13:27] <hsivonen> again
  349. # [13:28] <hsivonen> stringifying an HTMLCollection says it has property length
  350. # [13:28] <hsivonen> but accessing it with .length kills the script
  351. # [13:31] <zcorpan_> Hixie: did you ping me?
  352. # [13:33] <hsivonen> now I'm puzzled by the behavior of IE, Safari and Opera
  353. # [13:33] <hsivonen> they all seem to tokenize to completion on .close() even if there are external scripts in the way
  354. # [13:35] <hsivonen> whoa. whoa. do IE and Safari disable script execution when tokenizing on .close()?
  355. # [13:36] <hsivonen> and Opera
  356. # [13:36] <hsivonen> what makes the src=script scripts not run here: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/278
  357. # [13:37] <hsivonen> hmm. maybe I'm testing wrong
  358. # [13:37] <hsivonen> this is hard
  359. # [13:38] <hsivonen> woohoo! Safari does what I thought was sane after all
  360. # [13:41] <hsivonen> Opera does something harder
  361. # [13:41] <Hixie> zcorpan_: sent mail replies instead
  362. # [13:42] <zcorpan_> ok
  363. # [13:43] <hsivonen> I've been working on the HTML5 parser for so long that I independently arrive at the same solutions as whoever wrote the parser in WebKit...
  364. # [13:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think the document.close() definition is wrong.
  365. # [13:43] <hsivonen> I tentatively suggest changing it to what WebKit does
  366. # [13:44] <hsivonen> which may be what IE does, too
  367. # [13:44] <hsivonen> what opera does is too hard
  368. # [13:44] <hsivonen> and what Gecko does is further away from the other three
  369. # [13:44] <hsivonen> what the spec says is what Gecko does, btw
  370. # [13:45] <Hixie> send mail
  371. # [13:45] <annevk2> Hixie, so elements can now participate in the microdata model?
  372. # [13:45] <annevk2> given the itemValue thingie
  373. # [13:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: (i have no idea what you're talking about :-) )
  374. # [13:45] <Hixie> annevk2: not any more than before
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  376. # [13:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7917
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  378. # [13:57] <Hixie> thanks
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  380. # [13:59] <Hixie> hsivonen: any opinion on the issue of whether we should sniff for charsets inside <?xml?> stuff in text/html?
  381. # [13:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'd be happier if I didn't have to write code for that...
  382. # [14:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: what do Trident, WebKit and Presto do?
  383. # [14:00] <Hixie> i meant more an opinion about whether you knew of any bugs because you took that code out
  384. # [14:00] <Hixie> everyone seems to do it according to what i'm told
  385. # [14:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't recall
  386. # [14:01] <Hixie> k. let me know if you stumble across any relevant stuff, i'm likely to look at this again tomorrow.
  387. # [14:02] <Hixie> sweet, i dealt with enough e-mail tonight that my naive script's prediction is back into october
  388. # [14:05] <Lachy> is that the prediciton for Last Call?
  389. # [14:06] <Hixie> yeah
  390. # [14:06] <Lachy> what's the HTML WG's status in relation to publishing a Last Call soon?
  391. # [14:07] <Hixie> i believe the status is "hahaha".
  392. # [14:07] <Hixie> it may best be described by this chart: http://damowmow.com/playground/htmlwg/chart.html
  393. # [14:07] <Lachy> hahaha :-)
  394. # [14:08] <Lachy> what date do you expect to publish a Last Call snapshot on whatwg.org?
  395. # [14:08] <Hixie> sometime this month
  396. # [14:08] <Hixie> i hope!
  397. # [14:09] <Lachy> well, I gathered that much already. I guess that means you don't have a specific date in mind.
  398. # [14:09] <annevk2> on a scale of twenty years a month is quite specific
  399. # [14:10] <Lachy> yeah, but given that it's this month, with only 16 or so days left, I thought it might start getting a bit more specific
  400. # [14:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: if the graph is "Last updated today.", why does it end in mid-September?
  401. # [14:11] <Hixie> it'll happen as soon as all three lines are at zero
  402. # [14:11] <Hixie> (well, the issues line will be at 1, since WebSQL is an XXX issue and I ain't taking that draft to LC this month)
  403. # [14:12] <Hixie> hsivonen: what browser?
  404. # [14:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: Firefox trunk-ish
  405. # [14:12] <Hixie> wfm
  406. # [14:16] <Philip`> Warning: 08 is not a legal ECMA-262 octal constant
  407. # [14:16] <Philip`> Source Code: new Date(2009, 08-1, 26-1), // Aug 26, Chris steps down, Maciej and Paul take over - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1293.html
  408. # [14:16] <Philip`> says my Firefox
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  410. # [14:16] * Philip` doesn't know if that's relevant at all
  411. # [14:17] <Lachy> hsivonen, the graph appears to end in mid-october for me
  412. # [14:18] <Philip`> What month does it start with?
  413. # [14:18] <Hixie> Philip`: that warning should be harmless
  414. # [14:18] * Philip` sees it end in mid-September, with FF 3.5.something
  415. # [14:18] <hsivonen> that chart fails even more in Opera and Safari
  416. # [14:18] <hsivonen> yay for interop
  417. # [14:19] <annevk2> we don't have text support yet
  418. # [14:19] <hsivonen> but in safari, too, the last named month is September
  419. # [14:19] <hsivonen> dunno where the chart would end
  420. # [14:19] <Hixie> o_O
  421. # [14:19] <hsivonen> the chart itself isn't drawn although the axes are
  422. # [14:19] <Lachy> Hixie, If I select the "9 months" time scale on the graph, the year says "2010" under the first column. It says 2009 for other time scales.
  423. # [14:19] <jgraham> I see the same as hsivonen
  424. # [14:20] <jgraham> The first marked month is October 2008, the last is September 2009
  425. # [14:20] <Hixie> if you're not seeing the actual chart, please upgrade to a browser from this year
  426. # [14:20] <Hixie> or month
  427. # [14:20] <Hixie> or week
  428. # [14:20] <Hixie> or however recent it has to be :-)
  429. # [14:20] <Philip`> row.date = new Date(Date.UTC(dateComponents[0], dateComponents[1]-1, dateComponents[2]));
  430. # [14:20] <jgraham> or from the future
  431. # [14:21] <Philip`> Why does that do -1?
  432. # [14:21] <Hixie> Philip`: months start from 0 for some reason
  433. # [14:21] <jgraham> Aren't javascript months number from 0-11 or something?
  434. # [14:21] <Lachy> yes, unfortunately
  435. # [14:21] <jgraham> (whereas days are numbered from 1 and called "dates")
  436. # [14:23] <virtuelv_> fwiw, getDay() returns offset from zero
  437. # [14:23] <virtuelv_> (that's day of week)
  438. # [14:24] <virtuelv_> get*Month() is zero-offset
  439. # [14:24] <gsnedders|work> Who thought JS was consistent anyway? :P
  440. # [14:24] <virtuelv_> also, browsers accept wildly differing input to new Date()
  441. # [14:25] <Hixie> charts look fine to me under firefox trunk and webkit trunk at all zoom levels
  442. # [14:25] <Hixie> so i don't know what y'all are seeing
  443. # [14:25] * daedb sees only a single small green box in Opera 10.10 beta
  444. # [14:25] <gsnedders|work> (which causes site compat. bugs more or less whatever you7 do)
  445. # [14:26] <Philip`> The .csv starts with 2007-11-02, but the first label on the chart is October
  446. # [14:26] <Philip`> so it looks like the whole thing is off by one
  447. # [14:27] <jgraham> Please never mention javascript date parsing anywhere where I can hear
  448. # [14:27] * annevk2 gets the urge to say something now
  449. # [14:28] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: So never in the Opera bug tracker/
  450. # [14:28] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: For preference
  451. # [14:29] <Hixie> Philip`: says november for me
  452. # [14:29] <Hixie> maybe it's a timezone issue?
  453. # [14:29] <Hixie> i bet it's a timezone issue
  454. # [14:29] <Hixie> anyway, bed time
  455. # [14:29] <Hixie> nn
  456. # [14:31] <Philip`> Timezone sounds possible
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  461. # [14:43] <Lachy> if I set my timezone to Helsinki, same as hsivonen, then it still works fine for me in Firefox trunk. So it can't simply be a timezone issue.
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  485. # [16:03] <annevk2> hmm great
  486. # [16:03] <annevk2> I thought I could reverse engineer MediaList from Firefox but it's toally useless
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  492. # [16:20] <annevk2> (Opera is slightly better, but not great either, fwiw)
  493. # [16:20] <annevk2> (I don't think this API is used much :) )
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  513. # [17:01] <annevk2> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/ chapter 4 and 5 are new; I've yet to start on 6
  514. # [17:02] <annevk2> and with new I mean rewritten
  515. # [17:02] <annevk2> and with new I don't mean entirely done
  516. # [17:02] <annevk2> though it's quite close
  517. # [17:02] <annevk2> (I had to check something in, I was getting afraid of accidentally deleting characters and not noticing because the diff was not usable)
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  524. # [17:15] <jgraham> hsivonen: btw it is not clear to me that a table of fallback encodings is the right solution
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  526. # [17:17] <jgraham> And I am even less convinced that a table primarilly designed by Firefox localisers is a good idea
  527. # [17:23] <adactio> I just had a thought, reading back through a discussion about the <legend> element ...should the <fieldset> element be a sectioning root?
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  529. # [17:25] <TabAtkins> adactio: Hmm, maybe. I know that I sometimes use headings within my <fieldset>s (to label the individual inputs).
  530. # [17:25] <adactio> TabAtkins: and would you want those headings to contribute to the overall outline of the document?
  531. # [17:25] <TabAtkins> No, I wouldn't.
  532. # [17:26] <TabAtkins> I'd like the <legend> to contribute, but not the inner headings.
  533. # [17:26] <adactio> TabAtkins: sounds like <fieldset> could be a good candidate for sectioning root, then. It "feels" kind of like <blockquote> and <td> in that respect.
  534. # [17:26] <TabAtkins> I think you're probably right.
  535. # [17:27] <TabAtkins> You wanna write it up?
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  537. # [17:28] <adactio> TabAtkins: I'll fire off an email to the list.
  538. # [17:28] <TabAtkins> kk
  539. # [17:37] <TabAtkins> Man, is the multipage spec broken (still?/)again?
  540. # [17:38] <adactio> Looks that way.
  541. # [17:38] <TabAtkins> ;_;
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  543. # [17:42] <Philip`> I blame Hixie again!
  544. # [17:42] <TabAtkins> I'm happy to also blame Hixie.
  545. # [17:43] <Philip`> Hmm, I can't access http://whatwg.org at all
  546. # [17:43] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I was just trying that.
  547. # [17:43] <gsnedders|work> Sounds like Hixie's fault.
  548. # [17:44] <Philip`> If you get a directory listing instead of the multipage spec, that's probably my fault (though I'll blame Hixie)
  549. # [17:44] <Philip`> but it sounds like the whole web server is down
  550. # [17:44] <Philip`> which is nothing to do with me
  551. # [17:45] <TabAtkins> I blame both you and Hixie. And Google.
  552. # [17:46] <annevk2> maybe blame DreamHost?
  553. # [17:47] <Philip`> It still responds to ping
  554. # [17:47] <Philip`> so presumably the server itself is alive, just not Apache
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  563. # [18:17] <zcorpan_> hmm, specs on w3.org/tr now have a fancy style
  564. # [18:17] <zcorpan_> might be old news
  565. # [18:18] <zcorpan_> wonder why they have links instead of using media queries for the different views
  566. # [18:19] <aroben> is whatwg.org down?
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  568. # [18:19] <aroben> lists.whatwg.org works
  569. # [18:20] <aroben> but I can't get to any specs
  570. # [18:20] <aroben> or the homepage
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  572. # [18:21] <zcorpan_> down for me too
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  603. # [19:36] <a-ja> Hixie: is http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker broken?
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  610. # [19:39] <jgraham> a-ja: Could be; Hixie's server is down. Dunno how much the webapps tracker accesses per request and how much is cahced though
  611. # [19:40] <a-ja> jgraham: tks....will try again later
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  619. # [19:46] * mpt discovers SWFObject and cries
  620. # [19:51] * zcorpan_ wonders why mpt cries
  621. # [19:52] <mpt> Because it means the page doesn't contain an <embed>, and therefore Ubuntu Firefox's plug-in installer doesn't get triggered
  622. # [19:52] <zcorpan_> ah
  623. # [19:53] <zcorpan_> here you go: data:text/html,<embed src=data:application/x-shockwave-flash,>
  624. # [19:54] <mpt> Example #13829 of browsers doing X badly -> Web sites hacking around it -> browsers stymied when they improve X
  625. # [19:55] <zcorpan_> i guess you could file a bug on swfobject
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  628. # [19:58] <mpt> so we could
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  637. # [20:07] <cardona507> why is whatwg.org down?
  638. # [20:08] <jgraham> cardona507: Why not?
  639. # [20:08] <jgraham> (I think the theoy is that Hixie's apache is down but I guess that might be wrong)
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  641. # [20:08] <jgraham> (and he is likely asleep)
  642. # [20:09] <cardona507> ok - thanks jgraham
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  661. # [20:48] <robertnyman> This has probably already been discussed, but is there any estimate when http://whatwg.org/ will be up again?
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  663. # [20:53] <gsnedders|work> robertnyman: Soon after Hixie gets out of bed.
  664. # [20:54] <robertnyman> Fair enough :-) A little sleep-in is always deserved...
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  670. # [20:58] <gsnedders|work> More generally, for people who want to see the spec: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/
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  675. # [21:11] <robertnyman> Well, yes, but I have an upcoming article about HTML5 with links to some content only available at whatwg.org - so, I can't publish it till the site is available
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  721. # [22:40] <robertnyman> Good to see whatwg.org up again. If interesting, I just published my introduction to HTML5 article at http://robertnyman.com/2009/10/14/an-introduction-to-html5/
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  736. # [23:08] <cardona507> very cool robertnyman
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  756. # Session Close: Thu Oct 15 00:00:00 2009

The end :)