/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Oct 18 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:34] <eighty4> cardona507: sounds more like a apache question
  11. # [00:34] <cardona507> eighty4 - I got it working
  12. # [00:36] <cardona507> is there a solution to getting html5 pages that have the chrome frame meta tag to validate?
  13. # [00:36] <eighty4> nice
  14. # [00:37] <cardona507> I was told to serve up the file with this mime type application/chromeframe - but that makes firefox want to download the file
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  22. # [01:08] <gsnedders> cardona507: No, there is no solution.
  23. # [01:09] <cardona507> too bad
  24. # [01:09] <cardona507> thanks gsnedders
  25. # [01:09] <gsnedders> (on the basis that vendor-specific stuff is bad)
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  27. # [01:09] <cardona507> i understand
  28. # [01:10] <eighty4> hey, up late gsnedders :)
  29. # [01:10] <gsnedders> eighty4: Just got home :)
  30. # [01:10] <gsnedders> eighty4: Been over in Lambohov (sp?)
  31. # [01:11] <eighty4> so you can answer a question. Is it more proper to wrap a blogposts <p>s with a div or a section?
  32. # [01:11] <eighty4> sp?
  33. # [01:11] <gsnedders> spelling
  34. # [01:12] <eighty4> Lambohov is correct, I think
  35. # [01:19] <eighty4> gsnedders: and what happend at lambo?
  36. # [01:20] <gsnedders> eighty4: Just out at colleague's flat
  37. # [01:22] <eighty4> nice
  38. # [01:22] <eighty4> oh, there's a html5 watcher at twitter. My "HTML5 is missing a <comments> tag got a replay :P
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  41. # [01:26] <gsnedders> eighty4: Quite a few of us watch that, to varying degrees of attentiveness
  42. # [01:27] <eighty4> :)
  43. # [01:28] <Dashiva> Hypothesis: The main use case for google alerts is Hixie
  44. # [01:33] <gsnedders> Sounds plausible.
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  48. # [01:37] <gsnedders> eighty4: I used to follow it until it got to the point where it was impossible to keep up with
  49. # [01:37] <gsnedders> eighty4: When it was one tweet every 15 minutes or so, I could cope. Now it's closer to one per minute.
  50. # [01:39] <gsnedders> eighty4: Anyhow, what would the use of <comments> be?
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  59. # [02:39] <cardona507> is it possible to have the <canvas> width be fluid?
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  101. # [07:33] <Hixie> jgraham: w3c copy is hanging again if you're around and care to investigate
  102. # [07:39] <Hixie> ok every time i break down and complain, it starts working again
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  106. # [08:12] <hamaji> Hixie: are there any scripts which generated ahem font?
  107. # [08:12] <hamaji> Hixie: i found this, but it's 500 http://hixie.ch/resources/fonts/iw-generator.py
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  114. # [08:54] <eighty4> gsnedders: the use of it would be in my blog theme, so that I wouldn't have to use a list for comments :D
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  117. # [09:09] <Hixie> hamaji: ahem font was made by hand
  118. # [09:09] <Hixie> in a font editor
  119. # [09:11] <eighty4> Hixie: you're saying not all fonts are made by hand?
  120. # [09:12] <Hixie> eighty4: some of the test fonts i use are created by a script, as hamaji pointed out
  121. # [09:13] <eighty4> Hixie: you're no fun :/
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  124. # [09:23] <Adrian__> Hixie: Hello! Im pretty new to all this web protocol stuff and until recently I had no idea that there was so much politic behind the internet! im hoping you can tell me a little about HTML5 and more specifically WebSocket
  125. # [09:24] <Hixie> anything in particular?
  126. # [09:24] <Adrian__> well just the jist of it and a point in the right direction so i can learn more
  127. # [09:24] <Hixie> and hi, welcome :-)
  128. # [09:25] <Adrian__> i worked with orbited, porting tcpsocket to flash
  129. # [09:25] <Hixie> best place to get up to speed is probably the FAQ: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ
  130. # [09:25] <Hixie> for the overall view
  131. # [09:25] <Hixie> if you have any specific questions, though, i'd be more than happy to answer them
  132. # [09:26] <Adrian__> yah sure thanks
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  134. # [09:26] <Adrian__> what time are you usually on here?
  135. # [09:27] <Hixie> anytime except about 6am to 11am US west coast time
  136. # [09:29] <Hixie> (my waking hours vary a lot)
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  138. # [09:40] <Adrian__> Hixie: Do you know how far along WebSocket is?
  139. # [09:40] <Adrian__> could i write a client right now?
  140. # [09:40] <Adrian__> are there any demos out there you know of?
  141. # [09:40] <Hixie> a craw lient, or a web page using the api?
  142. # [09:40] <Hixie> a raw client, rather
  143. # [09:41] <Hixie> there's work going on for safari, chrome, and firefox, i think
  144. # [09:41] <Hixie> they're probably waiting to see what happens with the spec
  145. # [09:42] <Hixie> and there's a server implementation for apache or something, iirc
  146. # [09:42] <Hixie> other than that, nothing much yet
  147. # [09:42] <Adrian__> so i couldnt get anything to work in a browser right now?
  148. # [09:42] <Hixie> the spec is pretty stable though, i think
  149. # [09:42] <Hixie> not any shipping browsers, no
  150. # [09:42] <hamaji> Hixie: i see... thanks!
  151. # [09:43] <hamaji> Adrian__: i tried a flash implementation of websockets and it worked nicely http://github.com/gimite/web-socket-js
  152. # [09:44] <Adrian__> so i could put a flash app on a web page?
  153. # [09:48] <hamaji> this library provides standard js api of websocket, but it's implemented by flash. so, though you can write js to use websocket, but you need to put WebSocketMain.swf in your server. i think it's good as a preview of websocket for now
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  157. # [09:58] <Adrian__> hamaji: does ruby work on windows?
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  159. # [10:02] <hamaji> Adrian__: sometimes i use ruby with cygwin, and there are non-cywin implementations as well
  160. # [10:03] <hamaji> Adrian__: also, if you prefer python, there is a websocket server in python http://code.google.com/p/pywebsocket/
  161. # [10:03] <Adrian__> heh yah ty
  162. # [10:03] <Adrian__> thatlll probably be easier
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  179. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'm looking at r4152.. "remove reversed DNS label support from microdata".. wondering why you mad that change
  180. # [11:40] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Oct/0536.html
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  182. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> Hixie: "if aesthetics are important then authors will presumably use itemtype and short property names" is the actual rationale I guess
  183. # [11:42] <Hixie> people didn't seem to have trouble with URLs much
  184. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> yeah
  185. # [11:43] <Hixie> (contrary to what i expected)
  186. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> given that in the vast majority of use cases (regardless of the syntax), this stuff is going to be generated by some kind of CMS anyway
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  196. # [12:25] <gavin> http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html
  197. # [12:25] <gavin> just added #whatwg to my daily stats cronjob
  198. # [12:25] <Hixie> oh dear
  199. # [12:25] <gavin> should have thought of it sooner!
  200. # [12:26] <Hixie> hey now that's not fair, i look like i've chatted a lot, but people like anne have their stats split across a bazillion nicks
  201. # [12:26] <gavin> I can fix that
  202. # [12:27] <Hixie> lol, krijnh got the :-) bonus and krijn got the sadness bonus
  203. # [12:28] <Hixie> words #1 #3 and #6 were would, should, and could respectively
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  205. # [12:29] <Hixie> gavin: what time zone is the chart at the top?
  206. # [12:30] <Hixie> that's actually useful data
  207. # [12:30] <gavin> "time in Toronto"
  208. # [12:30] <gavin> EDT or EST, depending
  209. # [12:30] <Hixie> -5?
  210. # [12:30] <gavin> yeah
  211. # [12:30] <gavin> I guess it isn't consistent
  212. # [12:31] <Hixie> so we have peaks at around midnight and noon UTC? or 10am and 10pm, i can't quite work out which way to send those numbers
  213. # [12:32] <gavin> 10&10
  214. # [12:32] <Hixie> so 3am on your chart is my midnight, roughly
  215. # [12:32] <Hixie> ok
  216. # [12:32] <gavin> yeah
  217. # [12:32] <Hixie> so 8pm to midnight is when the channel has least traffic, interesting
  218. # [12:33] <Hixie> ok
  219. # [12:34] <jgraham> I'm slightly surprised that zcorpan has said more than me
  220. # [12:35] <Hixie> jgraham: btw, the status annotator has been very flaky ever since they changed their site
  221. # [12:35] <Hixie> i have to give two or three tries each time i regen the spec
  222. # [12:36] <jgraham> Hixie: Oh. I wonder if they hve made their site very slow
  223. # [12:36] <jgraham> Or at least slower than it was before
  224. # [12:37] <jgraham> Hixie: you should encourage mjs to fix the problem by resolving all the issues :)
  225. # [12:38] <jgraham> I guess I should look seriously at caching some of the data
  226. # [12:40] <jgraham> (well in addition to the HTTP caching which doesn't seem to be having any effect)
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  228. # [12:45] <gavin> I just regenerated the stats with some aliases added
  229. # [12:45] <gavin> annevk made it to second place, and zcorpan's ever further ahead of jgraham now :)
  230. # [12:46] <Hixie> :-)
  231. # [13:02] <mikekelly> caching?
  232. # [13:03] <mikekelly> I hope you can provide some data as evidence that caching is a good idea
  233. # [13:04] <mikekelly> this is science
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  244. # [14:29] <Lachy> I'm a little disappointed I only got 5th place in the rankings :-(
  245. # [14:29] <Lachy> oh
  246. # [14:29] <Lachy> well,
  247. # [14:29] <Lachy> I
  248. # [14:29] <Lachy> can
  249. # [14:29] <Lachy> fix
  250. # [14:29] <Lachy> that
  251. # [14:29] <Lachy> :-)
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  254. # [14:34] <erlehmann> Lachy, which rankings?
  255. # [14:35] <erlehmann> ah wait
  256. # [14:35] <erlehmann> i got it
  257. # [14:35] <erlehmann> brace for
  258. # [14:35] <erlehmann> IMPACT :D
  259. # [14:38] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-98-130.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
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  262. # [14:49] * gsnedders is surprised at some of the people he's above there
  263. # [15:13] * gsnedders wonders how long he needs to leave to change between two Schengen flights at Schiphol…
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  268. # [16:13] <Lachy> gsnedders, it depends if you need to collect luggage and re-check it in, or go through a passport check between flights.
  269. # [16:15] <Lachy> if you're switching from an international flight to a domestic flight, then I believe you would have to at least pick up luggage and re-check it in
  270. # [16:38] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Za5de.z.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  271. # [16:41] * Philip` clearly spends too much time on IRC :-(
  272. # [16:42] <AryehGregor> "this 1049-day reporting period"
  273. # [16:42] <AryehGregor> And I'm still in 27th place, despite having used this nick for only like . . . a month?
  274. # [16:45] * Philip` is apparently "Hixie's faithful follower"
  275. # [16:49] <Philip`> Could I say "HTML5 really seems something which people should think would" and take over the entire "Most used words / Last Used by" column?
  276. # [16:54] * AryehGregor always wants to stab someone when he sees ">From" at the beginning of a line in an e-mail, and it's not a quote.
  277. # [16:54] <AryehGregor> THIS IS NOT 1995. THERE ARE BETTER STORAGE FORMATS THAN MBOX AVAILABLE.
  278. # [16:55] <AryehGregor> Including trivial variants like mboxrd that don't corrupt mail.
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  281. # [16:58] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  282. # [17:00] <gsnedders> Lachy: If your checked in through, and by "Schengen" I was meaning the Schengen Agreement, I treaty which led to the removal of border controls.
  283. # [17:02] <Lachy> where are you travelling from and to?
  284. # [17:05] <Lachy> anyway, if you're sure you won't need to collect luggage, then you should only need to leave an hour, but that also assumes there are no unexpected delays for your first flight
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  286. # [17:16] <gsnedders> Lachy: Linköping to Lyon
  287. # [17:16] <gsnedders> Lachy: I have a choice of 40 mins to change planes, or 5 hours.
  288. # [17:26] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
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  301. # [18:21] <Lachy> gsnedders, ask the airline customer service if 40 min is enough.
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  306. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> "My main concern with namespaces is that people would use them."
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  320. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> Hah, I love the IRC stats at http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html
  321. # [19:20] <TabAtkins> Somehow, despite it measuring over a 3-year period and me only really joining the room a month or two ago, I'm already the 17th most prolific chatter.
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  325. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> Had it been generated like the previous week, I'd definitely be #16, since mookid is just *barely* ahead of me.
  326. # [19:22] * Joins: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@c83-252-230-238.bredband.comhem.se)
  327. # [19:22] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
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  333. # [20:15] <annevk42> gsnedders, fourty minutes is plenty
  334. # [20:15] <annevk42> if it's the same airline company anyway
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  338. # [20:50] <gsnedders> annevk42: k, thx
  339. # [21:05] <gsnedders> What effect does the frameset-ok flag have?
  340. # [21:07] <Philip`> If it's not set, framesets might not be ok
  341. # [21:07] * Philip` is just guessing here
  342. # [21:10] <gsnedders> OK, so (ignoring fragment case) frameset is ignored in body if it is false, and otherwise the body element is removed from its parent and from the stack and a frameset element is added
  343. # [21:12] <gsnedders> How do I make sure I get the errors in an html5lib test right?
  344. # [21:13] <Philip`> I think you can only test the number of errors, not their positions or values
  345. # [21:13] <Philip`> using the normal tree-construction test format
  346. # [21:13] <gsnedders> So the strings themselves are meaningless?
  347. # [21:14] <Philip`> Yes, since the tests are meant to be portable between implementations and error strings are not portable
  348. # [21:14] <Philip`> as far as I'm aware
  349. # [21:14] <gsnedders> As far as I can tell, the Python impl doesn't even check the number
  350. # [21:15] <Philip`> self.assertEquals(len(p.errors), len(errors), errorMsg2.encode("utf-8"))
  351. # [21:15] <Philip`> Isn't that it?
  352. # [21:16] <gsnedders> I just added five more lines of errors to one test and it still passes.
  353. # [21:17] <Philip`> #Run the parse error checks
  354. # [21:17] <Philip`> checkParseErrors = False
  355. # [21:17] <gsnedders> Oh great.
  356. # [21:18] <gsnedders> Wow. Absolutely tons of failures with that true.
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  358. # [21:19] <gsnedders> Philip`: errorMsg2 seems to try and contain the expected strings
  359. # [21:20] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/diff?spec=svn84ba7e9cfe61830f13ef4f354b24397332386a39&r=84ba7e9cfe61830f13ef4f354b24397332386a39&format=side&path=/python/tests/test_parser.py
  360. # [21:21] <Philip`> It defaults to False, and the -p command-line option sets it to False
  361. # [21:21] <Philip`> Something's definitely dodgy there
  362. # [21:21] <Philip`> I don't see why it shouldn't always be enabled
  363. # [21:21] <gsnedders> I think it always should
  364. # [21:21] <Philip`> gsnedders: It prints the strings for debugging, it doesn't compare the strings
  365. # [21:21] <gsnedders> A lot more tests need to pass if it is enabled though
  366. # [21:22] <Philip`> Removing test assertions is not the bestest way to get high test pass rates
  367. # [21:22] <gsnedders> Indeed.
  368. # [21:24] * jgraham has the alternative theory that we should stop reporting parse errors
  369. # [21:25] <jgraham> Or loging them rather
  370. # [21:25] <Philip`> Why?
  371. # [21:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: Until we drop support, it should work.
  372. # [21:26] <jgraham> Roughly no one cares, it adds complexity and probably a small but noticble amount of performance
  373. # [21:26] <gsnedders> 247 test failures with them enabled, 0 with them disabled.
  374. # [21:26] <jgraham> Especially since it constrains the implementation
  375. # [21:26] <jgraham> (so it prevents useful refactorings)
  376. # [21:27] <Philip`> It seems like it would help detect subtle bugs where the wrong code-path is executed but it gives the same tree output (but different error messages)
  377. # [21:27] <Philip`> but maybe that's untrue
  378. # [21:27] <Hixie> shelley is a wg member again!
  379. # [21:27] <jgraham> Philip`: Since no one looks at the error messages anyway I doubt it helps
  380. # [21:27] <Philip`> s/different error/different number of error/
  381. # [21:28] <jgraham> I believe to date we have had exactly 0 bug reports about the error reporting
  382. # [21:29] * gsnedders makes yet another commit
  383. # [21:29] <Philip`> gsnedders: Don't commit so much, or hg will run out of SHA1s :-(
  384. # [21:29] <jgraham> And I don't recall it finding significant bugs other than just "forgot to report an error"
  385. # [21:31] <jgraham> (In case you are wondering I would bet that I switched off the parse error reporting when adding the namespace support since I wanted to fix important bugs before trivial pedantic things)
  386. # [21:32] <jgraham> (but I guess you can check if you like)
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  395. # [22:12] <GPHemsley> Am I the only one who sees the importance of exposing and processing the contents of @lang?
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  402. # [22:41] * Philip` wonders if getElementsByTagNameNS("http://example.org/widgets/", "*") would really provide any practical performance benefits over querySelector("widget-foo, widget-bar, widget-baz")
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  407. # [23:01] * Hixie looks cross-eyed at public-html
  408. # [23:01] <Hixie> are we really talking about making HTML say that Microsoft can invent tags at random?
  409. # [23:01] <Hixie> what happened to people being upset about <marquee> and <blink>?
  410. # [23:02] <AryehGregor> Well, the spec already sort of says that for the XML serialization, doesn't it? You're allowed to use other namespaces there, IIRC.
  411. # [23:02] <jgraham> Apparently if it had been http://microsoft.com/happy/shiny/namespaces/holding/hands::marquee then everything would have been hunky-dory
  412. # [23:02] <Hixie> AryehGregor: it only allows elements that are allowed by an appropriate spec
  413. # [23:04] * Joins: webben (n=benh@82.152.151.107)
  414. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> Hixie, so why is everyone saying stuff like "Non-colon-based stuff would be better" instead of "We don't want more <marquee>s"?
  415. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Because nobody would use <com_microsoft_marquee> anyway, unless it was *really* useful, in which case everyone really should adopt it. If you have to allow bad things, making them hard to is good.
  416. # [23:07] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Because non-colon-based stuff would be better
  417. # [23:07] <Philip`> since it wouldn't pollute the language with colons and associated complexities and weirdnesses and incompatibilities
  418. # [23:08] <Philip`> (Being better doesn't mean it's good, though)
  419. # [23:08] <Philip`> (but if someone's going to do bad things anyway, it seems sensible to limit the damage the cause)
  420. # [23:08] <jgraham> Non colon based stuff would be better. But not making it easy to invent single-implemtation features with no clear path for standarisation would be best
  421. # [23:08] <Philip`> s/the cause/they cause/
  422. # [23:10] <jgraham> (because, as has been previously pointed you can't really have <com_microsoft_wordart> and a w3c-endorsed <wordart> on the same page so there is no way to transition away from the prefixes)
  423. # [23:10] <jgraham> (unlike with css properties or DOM functions or similar)
  424. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Why can't you have them both on the same page?
  425. # [23:11] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Well you can but you can't make them mutually exclusive
  426. # [23:11] <jgraham> For the same content
  427. # [23:11] <jgraham> (in general)
  428. # [23:11] <Hixie> AryehGregor: beats me
  429. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> Oh, I see. Like CSS's ability to put "-moz-foo" and follow it with "foo".
  430. # [23:11] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@94.213.72.212)
  431. # [23:12] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Right
  432. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> That's sort of bad anyway, because it just makes me copy the contents of "-moz-foo" into "foo", which won't work if the syntax changes in the official implementation. Transitioning off of prefixes is always painful.
  433. # [23:12] <Hixie> TabAtkins: consider <canvas>, it'd be even more painful with HTML than in CSS
  434. # [23:12] <jgraham> I mean with the wordart example it might, possibly, work to do <com_microsoft_wordart><wordart>Village Fete!</></>
  435. # [23:12] <jgraham> (but with real closing tags obviously)
  436. # [23:13] <jgraham> But it might not
  437. # [23:13] <jgraham> With canvas it would be a real pain
  438. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> I see, so you'd have to do an all-or-nothing transition over, or else risk legacy clients not getting the functionality.
  439. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> Which is strictly worse than just standardizing the original browser-specific name, which at least works in one browser while people transition to newer UAs.
  440. # [23:17] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Did you ever revert that ua/uk issue?
  441. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Clearly this means we need some way of multi-naming an element, so the browser has a choice of which name it wants to use. <com_microsoft_wordart|com_moz_wordart|wordart>Village Fete!</>
  442. # [23:17] * TabAtkins is not serious, though it would solve at least part of the problem.
  443. # [23:17] <Hixie> GPHemsley: yes, right after you said to :-)
  444. # [23:18] <Hixie> TabAtkins: that would be a security nightmare
  445. # [23:18] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Oh, OK. I never saw a tweet about it. That's why I asked. :)
  446. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> Indeed!
  447. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> It would be horrifying. Just saying, that's basically how CSS's prefixed properties work. The browser just ignores all the properties it doesn't want to pay attention to.
  448. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> Someone needs to make a JavaScript validator.
  449. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> That will guess whether your JS is standards-compliant.
  450. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> (guess because of halting problem, natch)
  451. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> Or better would be some way of indicating that an element is 'experimental' and can be ignored if the browser wants. <wordart><com_microsoft_com wordart experimental>Village Fete!</></>
  452. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> Nobody pays any attention to JS validity, only HTML/CSS validity, presumably because JS doesn't have validators.
  453. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> Or, hrm. Man, translating this into HTML is hard.
  454. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Something like jslint doesn't go far enough?
  455. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> jslint is for checking code quality more than standards compliance, isn't it?
  456. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> Also, I *totally* screwed up the proprietary tag in the last example.
  457. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yeah, but what standards are talking about?
  458. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> ECMAScript, DOM, HTML5, . . .
  459. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Oh, so like if you're using properties that actually exist in the relevant standard?
  460. # [23:24] <Hixie> GPHemsley: it was editorial so it didn't get tweeted on @WHATWG -- if you want all the tweets, @HTML5 has all the HTML5 ones. There's no twitter for all the edits ever, though.
  461. # [23:24] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  462. # [23:24] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-71-134-235-94.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
  463. # [23:24] <Hixie> GPHemsley: there's a mailing list for those if you want them though
  464. # [23:26] <roc> AryehGregor: it's a lot easier to validate declarative content than a program
  465. # [23:26] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I know.
  466. # [23:26] <jcranmer> is HTML 5 in last call?
  467. # [23:26] <AryehGregor> "A lot easier" meaning "not impossible, unlike with a program".
  468. # [23:26] <webben> jcranmer: No.
  469. # [23:27] <roc> well
  470. # [23:27] <jcranmer> I misread something at some point in time, then
  471. # [23:27] <AryehGregor> But it should be possible to try *some* kind of validation of JavaScript. So it could say "definitely invalid", "definitely valid", "maybe valid" in some very restricted cases.
  472. # [23:27] <roc> there are some things you can validate about programs
  473. # [23:27] <AryehGregor> Right.
  474. # [23:27] * Joins: svtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  475. # [23:27] <roc> and there are some things you can't validate about declarative markup
  476. # [23:27] <AryehGregor> True, like semantic usage.
  477. # [23:28] <webben> AryehGregor: You could sniff JS for likely mistakes.
  478. # [23:28] <AryehGregor> Right.
  479. # [23:29] <Hixie> jcranmer: few more days!
  480. # [23:29] <jcranmer> I'm arguing with someone who claims HTML 5 is...
  481. # [23:29] <jcranmer> "
  482. # [23:29] <jcranmer> In violation of what? "HTML 5" is just a sketchy draft, purported to mainly describe how browsers actually behave, more or less. Why would you treat it as if it were a standard? "
  483. # [23:29] <AryehGregor> Typical.
  484. # [23:29] <Hixie> jcranmer: it's a "draft standard"
  485. # [23:29] <Hixie> jcranmer: and it's more accurate and detailed than HTML4
  486. # [23:29] <Hixie> jcranmer: has been for years
  487. # [23:30] <jcranmer> I know
  488. # [23:30] <tantek> except for all the new stuff ;)
  489. # [23:30] <jgraham> Experience suggests that you would treat it as a standard because it is the closest thing to a functional standard that exists in the HTML5 space
  490. # [23:30] <AryehGregor> CSS Text is a WD too, is that also "a sketchy draft . . . why would you treat it as if it were a standard?"
  491. # [23:30] <webben> jcranmer: Maybe the argument needs to be about something other than its "standards" status, and focus on the interoperability angle?
  492. # [23:30] <AryehGregor> jgraham, s/5//?
  493. # [23:30] <jcranmer> I'm specifically arguing about some of the text it says on "applet"
  494. # [23:30] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Indeed
  495. # [23:31] <jcranmer> specifically about the interaction between <applet> and display: none
  496. # [23:31] <tantek> jcranmer - applet's been deprecated for over a decade, why would you bother with it at all?
  497. # [23:31] <webben> tantek: Migrating away from applet is non-trivial.
  498. # [23:31] <Hixie> jcranmer: i just added that in the last few hours!
  499. # [23:31] <Hixie> webben: really?
  500. # [23:31] <tantek> webben - it's one checkbox in the browser for me. works great.
  501. # [23:32] <jcranmer> Hixie: really?
  502. # [23:32] <Hixie> jcranmer: yup
  503. # [23:32] <webben> Hixie: In my experience, yeah.
  504. # [23:32] <Hixie> jcranmer: if it's wrong, let me know
  505. # [23:32] <jcranmer> hmm, 5:39 AM
  506. # [23:32] <Hixie> webben: should be relatively simple, it just maps to <embed> basically. what's difficult?
  507. # [23:32] <jcranmer> apparently IE and FF 3.0.1 differ in that regard
  508. # [23:32] <jcranmer> er, IE 7
  509. # [23:32] <webben> Hixie: I tried to migrate to "object". iirc.
  510. # [23:32] <Hixie> jcranmer: oh, that's possible, yes. FF devs in particular have told me that's a known bug.
  511. # [23:33] <Hixie> webben: oh well <object> in general is non-trivial
  512. # [23:33] <jcranmer> mostly because IE and everybody else seem to implement it differently
  513. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> Hmm, the <link itemref="foo"> idea seems interesting. Would make it usable faster.
  514. # [23:35] <tantek> Hixie, jcranmer, worse yet, anything that invokes plugins (e.g. object, embed) may be impacted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eolas
  515. # [23:37] * Joins: cardona507 (n=cardona5@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  516. # [23:37] * jcranmer prays for an in re Bilski blanket invalidation of software patents
  517. # [23:38] * Parts: annevk42 (n=annevk@c-c604e353.13-500-64736c15.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  518. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> jcranmer: Me too. Sigh, me too.
  519. # [23:39] <jcranmer> doesn't help the H.264 patent problems, though, unless you kill DSP patents as well
  520. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Can we just wish for the death of patents in general?
  521. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> No.
  522. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> Some things have enormous R&D costs and would be impossible to make without patents.
  523. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> Like drug research. Much though people hate on big pharma, it costs hundreds of millions of dollars to get a new drug approved, and the process requires publishing enough info that any competitor could make your new drug en masse for cheap.
  524. # [23:41] <jcranmer> hundreds of millions of dollars and years
  525. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> So the end of patents would be the end of private drug research as we know it. The same doubtless applies to a variety of other fields.
  526. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> Software is already protected by copyright, though, and there's the potential for massive lock-in.
  527. # [23:42] <jcranmer> first you have to find biological mechanisms, then you have to attack those mechanisms, introduce various chemicals, and then find efficient ways to manufacture complex organic compounds
  528. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> If Pfizer comes out with a great new treatment for X, and they dominate for five years, that doesn't stop them losing out to a new drug someone else comes out with that works better or is cheaper.
  529. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I really don't wanna get into arguments about the validity of patents in certain realms, but the short answer is that experience has shown that patents do *not* increase innovaction in the medical research market.
  530. # [23:42] <jcranmer> and then you get to go through years of multi-phase trials
  531. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, how would research occur *at all* without patents? Who would pay for the trials?
  532. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> You'd have to redo the system, like have the government fund the trials.
  533. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> (Some countries persisted quite a while into the modern era without patents on medical research, so we can compare their previous rates of innovation with their current.)
  534. # [23:43] * Joins: cardona507_ (n=cardona5@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  535. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, innovation including paying for trials, or did they let companies do that in countries where they could turn a profit off them?
  536. # [23:44] * Quits: webben (n=benh@82.152.151.107) (Remote closed the connection)
  537. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> It's not just a matter of innovation, it's also a matter of you have to run multiple trials of many thousands of people according to demanding standards . . . something has to pay for that.
  538. # [23:44] <tantek> AryehGregor - plenty of research happens on food nutrition and other non-patented substances. So someone is paying for them. Who cares about who is paying? Fact remains, such research does happen.
  539. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I'd have to look up details of the papers that have been cited, but like I said, not really wanting to get into that sort of discussion atm.
  540. # [23:44] * Quits: kristallpirat (n=kristall@c-base/crew/kristall) ("Wünsche weiterhin guten Flug")
  541. # [23:44] * Joins: webben (n=benh@82.152.151.107)
  542. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> tantek, most food research doesn't have to go through the same FDA approval process as prescription drugs.
  543. # [23:44] <tantek> AyrehGregor - same thing with common vitamins
  544. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> Of course, you could say we should get rid of that approval process, or greatly cut it back.
  545. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> That might be sensible.
  546. # [23:45] <jcranmer> well, considering the high costs of a failure in the approval process
  547. # [23:45] <tantek> the point is, that there are plenty of things that improve your health, combat sickness etc. that are researched that are not-patented
  548. # [23:45] <tantek> focusing on drugs is the wrong framing. focusing on health is the right framing.
  549. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> Well, I'm pointing specifically to prescription drugs, because they have a necessary baseline cost due to FDA approval.
  550. # [23:46] <AryehGregor> I'm not commenting on other things that might not have such large overhead for introducing new products.
  551. # [23:46] <AryehGregor> Those are a different story and might not benefit at all from patents.
  552. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> So, worst case, government pays for FDA-level approvals, once a drug has sufficient promise from privately-run trials. Shrug. That would prevent people from locking up medical research behind paywalls.
  553. # [23:46] * Quits: cardona507_ (n=cardona5@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  555. # [23:47] * tantek is a little surprised that the HTML5 patent disclosures http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/40318/status#current-disclosures do not list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eolas
  556. # [23:48] <cardona507_> hello, I am trying to get appcache setup and I believe that I have it. The browser asks if it is ok to store data on my computer for offline use - and I have the .manifest serving up with the correct mime type. And I have all of the files in the cache manifest . but it isn't working - does anyone have any trouble shooting tips?
  557. # [23:48] <tantek> Hixie, are <object> and <embed> optional for UAs? Can they simply ignore them as empty elements? Or just "always" go to fallback content? Or only handle "native" support and simply never invoke any plugin code? (nevermind if this is practical or not, just wondering if HTML5 allows such "degenerate" treatment of those tags)
  558. # [23:49] <Hixie> AryehGregor: re your mail about ajax
  559. # [23:49] <jcranmer> software was for the most part only patentable in the US since 1994, from what I can tell
  560. # [23:49] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i think it's pretty easy to do it in ajax while being backwards compatible -- you'd just grab every click using a capture listener, and cancel the navigation
  561. # [23:50] <Hixie> AryehGregor: and instead XHR the page over, pushState() the new URL, and replace the contents of the old page with the new page using innerHTML
  562. # [23:50] <Hixie> AryehGregor: it's probably like a 20 lne script
  563. # [23:50] <Hixie> tantek: they are not required to support any plugins
  564. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> Hixie: that works if you're willing to replace the whole page.
  565. # [23:51] <tantek> Hixie - ok, that is good to know. Thanks for the summary.
  566. # [23:51] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you can do it with bits of the page too
  567. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> Hixie: If you're not, you'll have to duplicate content.
  568. # [23:51] <Hixie> TabAtkins: duplicate how?
  569. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Well, how are you doing it with bits? Either the server is trimming pages down to particular bits based on the request (ajax call tells it what bits it wants), or you're parsing/trimming the response client-side, which is complex.
  570. # [23:52] * AryehGregor needs to read more of the HTML5 spec, but first needs to do the complex analysis homework that he planned to do . . . oh, 12 hours ago
  571. # [23:52] <Hixie> TabAtkins: trimming the response client-side is easy
  572. # [23:52] <tantek> Hixie, as long as plugins are optional for conforming UAs in HTML5, I don't reasonably believe that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eolas will become essential for HTML5. (IANAL and all that) Therefore I won't be filling out this form accordingly: http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/40318/disclose
  573. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> ?_? Seriously? The best way I've seen so far is to load it into an iframe and pull chunks out.
  574. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> Which is suboptimal, since it runs scripts, requests resources, etc. that may not even affect the bits you're pulling out.
  575. # [23:53] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you do a querySelectorAll('.replace') on the current document, then for each element in that list, you do a getElementById() on the DOM of the XHRed document, and replace the element in the old doc with the element in the XHRed doc.
  576. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> Okay, so see previous response.
  577. # [23:53] <Hixie> for instance
  578. # [23:53] <tantek> BTW - it's amazing how much faster how many sites get if you uncheck "[ ] Enable plug-ins"
  579. # [23:54] <Hixie> tantek: i think you want #htmlwg, for that issue :-)
  580. # [23:54] * Parts: cpharmston (n=cpharmst@pool-173-73-172-177.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
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  582. # [23:54] * cardona507_ is now known as cardona507
  583. # [23:54] <tantek> Thanks Hixie. I will strongly support the current position of HTML5 that supporting plugins is optional for conforming UAs.
  584. # [23:55] <Hixie> it'd be basically impossible for us to require support for plugins
  585. # [23:55] <Hixie> since we'd have to define binary interfaces for all platforms
  586. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> If you do the "build the XHRed document's DOM, and extract bits", that means a possibly substantial wait while images load, scripts run, etc. when all you want is a particular chunk of content.
  587. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> For a js-heavy site, the kind that benefits most from being a single-page app, this will *always* be relatively substantial.
  588. # [23:57] <Hixie> TabAtkins: no scripts or images load when doing XHR
  589. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> (In my own hack-support for @onlyreplace, I'm going to mangle script and img elements on the page, then unmangle them for the bits that I'm replacing.)
  590. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> Hixie: When you build the DOM they do, certainly?
  591. # [23:58] <GarethAdams|Home> TabAtkins: external resources are only loaded when loaded into the DOM, an XHR isn't loaded into the DOM (it's just a external request)
  592. # [23:58] <GarethAdams|Home> *into the windowed document
  593. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> GarethAdams|Home: But to do what Hixie is saying you have to turn the XHR response into a separate DOM so you can yank chunks out of it.
  594. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> Which should, unless I'm wrong, download/execute linked resources.
  595. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> (If I am wrong, that's weird, but helpful.)
  596. # Session Close: Mon Oct 19 00:00:00 2009

The end :)