/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-25 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Sun Oct 25 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <deadowl> I got my mom to defect before peak aol.
  4. # [00:00] <gsnedders> And I must've been 11 when I finally got bullied into standards and this HTML5-like thing that'll replace HTML called XHTML.
  5. # [00:00] <deadowl> xhtml is html5-like?
  6. # [00:01] <gsnedders> deadowl: Well, this predates HTML 5 existing, and if it is the replacement of HTML 4.01, then it is sort of :P
  7. # [00:01] <Rimdeker> Isn't it actually other way around?
  8. # [00:01] <Hixie> gsnedders: re http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8019
  9. # [00:01] <gsnedders> 14 when I joined WHATWG mailing list I guess
  10. # [00:01] <Rimdeker> I thought HTML 5 is gonna combine HTML and XHTML
  11. # [00:01] <Hixie> gsnedders: there are two errors -- missing space, and missing quote
  12. # [00:02] <Hixie> gsnedders: you want just one reported?
  13. # [00:02] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yeah, I don't think it makes sense to throw multiple parse errors for a single character
  14. # [00:02] <Hixie> k
  15. # [00:02] <gsnedders> (and I don't want to update the html5lib tests again) :P
  16. # [00:03] <Rimdeker> So Ian, how are you today?
  17. # [00:03] <Rimdeker> Wie ist es so in der Schweiz)
  18. # [00:03] <Rimdeker> ?*
  19. # [00:03] <Hixie> actually i am from la suisse romande
  20. # [00:03] <Hixie> and i live in california at the moment :-)
  21. # [00:04] <Rimdeker> ...I suppose ian@hixie.ch is not you and I suppose your IRC information saying Norway is not true either
  22. # [00:04] <Hixie> actually it is me
  23. # [00:04] <Hixie> and my irc client is in norway
  24. # [00:04] <Hixie> i just connect to it using ssh from california
  25. # [00:05] <gsnedders> Oh duh, 8018 really is dumb
  26. # [00:05] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  27. # [00:05] <Rimdeker> Ian , I like pie.
  28. # [00:05] <Rimdeker> That said what's HTML 5 gonna be like?
  29. # [00:05] <Hixie> pretty similar to http://whatwg.org/html5, i guess
  30. # [00:06] <gsnedders> Rimdeker: People called XHTML 1.0 "HTML 5" when the W3C was pushing XHTML as a replacement for HTML several years back.
  31. # [00:06] <deadowl> Okay, so I was wondering is if there is a tag that can be used to express a disconnection in continuity
  32. # [00:06] <gsnedders> deadowl: section? aside?
  33. # [00:06] <gsnedders> Hixie: Are there any other cases in the parser where a single char can throw multiple parse errors?
  34. # [00:07] <deadowl> gsnedders: This is a sentence and<disconnect>...</disconnect>
  35. # [00:07] <gsnedders> deadowl: Also, why do you want to mark that up? What do you gain by marking it up?
  36. # [00:08] <deadowl> gsnedders: it would be useful in contexts that aren't necessarily well-formed
  37. # [00:08] <Hixie> gsnedders: i hope not, but Philip` might know
  38. # [00:08] <deadowl> gsnedders: like DOM Ranges
  39. # [00:09] <gsnedders> deadowl: I guess I'm missing what you're trying to do
  40. # [00:09] <gsnedders> Hixie: If you hope there aren't, I guess this case shouldn't be there either :)
  41. # [00:09] <deadowl> gsnedders: let's say you have an unordered list, you know how document.selection can go part way into a list?
  42. # [00:10] <gsnedders> deadowl: yeah
  43. # [00:10] <Hixie> gsnedders: you already convinced me dude :-)
  44. # [00:10] <gsnedders> Hixie: :P
  45. # [00:11] <gsnedders> Anyhow, I scarcely got any sleep last night after party/disco at Eng. seminar, so I kinda need sleep
  46. # [00:11] <Hixie> though for sanity my fix is a little different than your request
  47. # [00:11] <Philip`> Hixie: I don't know!
  48. # [00:11] <Hixie> Philip`: you have ocaml magic
  49. # [00:11] * Philip` doesn't like being accused of knowing things :-(
  50. # [00:11] <Philip`> Hixie: It's years out of date, though
  51. # [00:11] <gsnedders> Hixie: I just threw together the first thing I could think of that would fix it, I didn't claim it was elegant :P
  52. # [00:12] <Hixie> Philip`: didn't you have some regexps to nearly auto-generate it?
  53. # [00:12] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  54. # [00:12] <gsnedders> Hixie: Is there anything that can implemented in an hour or less than you want in Anolis soon?
  55. # [00:12] <Philip`> Hixie: Yes, except not very "auto", since the spec used lots of inconsistent phrasing so it needed hundreds of regexps to match everything
  56. # [00:13] <Philip`> and it couldn't automatically deduce high-level meanings, like phases or modes or whatever they are
  57. # [00:13] <Philip`> so that structure had to be hard-coded
  58. # [00:13] <Philip`> and then you changed it all :-(
  59. # [00:13] <gsnedders> (Equally, that question about Anolis goes to anyone else who wants anything soon)
  60. # [00:14] <deadowl> gsnedders: if I put a range over something that's well formed, and then extract or clone it's contents. I have no way of knowing in that range whether or not the well-formed contents of the clone/extraction reflect the well-formed origin. Hence the utility of having a tag to signify a lack of continuity.
  61. # [00:15] <gsnedders> deadowl: In what way does just comparing nodes not work?
  62. # [00:15] <Philip`> (Also I never finished a complete implementation of the tree construction stuff)
  63. # [00:15] <gsnedders> Anyhow, time for me to deal with four hours of non-stop dancing. Feel free to leave messages to me about Anolis.
  64. # [00:16] <gsnedders> (That's not strictly true, I had a five minute or so break every hour.)
  65. # [00:16] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-228-227.bredband.comhem.se)
  66. # [00:16] <Philip`> It'd be possible (and possibly useful) to update and fix all the code, but I guess it'd take several days' work
  67. # [00:16] <deadowl> gsnedders: let's say you're doing an XMLHttpRequest for an incomplete list
  68. # [00:17] <deadowl> so you could do something like <ul><li>a</li><li>b</li><li>c</li><disconnect>more...</disconnect></ul>
  69. # [00:18] <deadowl> and then replace the disconnect with a continuity for the list.
  70. # [00:18] <deadowl> that could be followed by another disconnect.
  71. # [00:18] <deadowl> though for me its useful context would be in document selections.
  72. # [00:18] <Hixie> Philip`: heh.
  73. # [00:18] <Hixie> Philip`: it should be more consistent now fwiw
  74. # [00:19] <Hixie> gsnedders i think i'm out of requests for anolis at this point (don't need even cross-doc-cross-refs anymore)
  75. # [00:20] * Hixie really should rewrite his sawzall implementation of the parser
  76. # [00:20] <Philip`> Hmm, why was I talking about the tree construction stuff?
  77. # [00:20] <Philip`> The doctype bits are just in the tokeniser
  78. # [00:21] <Philip`> which did (at one point) have a complete working implementation
  79. # [00:21] <Philip`> (though it wasn't generated from regexps, it was just a manual transcription of the algorithm)
  80. # [00:21] <Hixie> it's not that hard to just manually implement the parser from the spec
  81. # [00:21] <Hixie> just tedious
  82. # [00:22] <deadowl> gsnedders: the lexical equivalent for the English language would be ellipses.
  83. # [00:23] <Philip`> ((A manual transcription into a data structure that could then be processed by OCaml code, to make graphs and test cases and to generate implementations, to be specific))
  84. # [00:24] <deadowl> gsnedders:???
  85. # [00:24] * Philip` wouldn't want to simply write code that implements a parser, because that'd be far too obvious and dull and sensible
  86. # [00:26] <Hixie> that'd be a lot easier than an actual parser ;-)
  87. # [00:26] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  88. # [00:26] <Hixie> though it was quite useful iirc
  89. # [00:26] <Hixie> it found a bunch of problems, no?
  90. # [00:27] <deadowl> The fact that nodes can be partially selected in HTML, just as words can be partially selected in English, leaves a gaping hole over the fact that HTML does not have the expressive power to perform the functionality that would be the equivalent of the ellipses in the English language.
  91. # [00:27] <deadowl> anyone?
  92. # [00:27] <Hixie> deadowl: what's the use case?
  93. # [00:28] <Hixie> deadowl: i mean, what kind of site would you use this in and why?
  94. # [00:28] <deadowl> A search engine that contains partial text from a page for instance.
  95. # [00:29] <jgraham> gsnedders: html5lib 0.12 support
  96. # [00:29] <deadowl> Any website that employs pagination.
  97. # [00:29] <jgraham> (also, by extension, html5lib 0.12 to be released)
  98. # [00:30] <deadowl> if i controlled DOM ranges, partially selected nodes in DOM ranges during extraction, etc.
  99. # [00:30] <jgraham> (Mybe we shold call it html5lib 1.0LC to confuse people)
  100. # [00:31] <deadowl> why? so I can lexically distinguish complete data from incomplete data.
  101. # [00:31] <deadowl> should I expand on the use cases more?
  102. # [00:31] * Joins: yutak_home (n=kee@R214157.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  103. # [00:33] * Joins: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186)
  104. # [00:34] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  105. # [00:38] <Philip`> Since when did select.value work? I thought I still had to do select.options[select.selectedIndex].value
  106. # [00:41] <deadowl> Hixie: abstract use case: http://pastebin.org/48025
  107. # [00:42] * Quits: Midler (n=midler@212.37.124.243) ("Leaving.")
  108. # [00:42] <Hixie> deadowl: i don't understand what problem the "break" there is helping with that you couldn't do with <li class="more">...</li>
  109. # [00:43] <deadowl> Hixie: it's the transformation that's more important, and being able to reassemble it from across contexts with limited information. Currently DOM ranges don't add an <li class="more"> tag when they extract partially selected nodes.
  110. # [00:44] <Hixie> deadowl: then your use case didn't seem to really show what you meant :-)
  111. # [00:44] <deadowl> it's not only lexically meaningful, it's generalizable to the DOM core.
  112. # [00:44] <Hixie> deadowl: could you show a concrete use case showing what problem you think this fixes?
  113. # [00:44] <Hixie> i.e. what code would look like today that is a problem?
  114. # [00:45] <deadowl> Hixie: you mean the code where I added the requirement for well formed XML?
  115. # [00:45] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  116. # [00:45] <Hixie> i don't know
  117. # [00:45] <Hixie> i don't understand what problem we are trying to solve with this
  118. # [00:46] <deadowl> well, in any case, partially it's annoyance with not being able to serverside DOM interpret a file that contains partial html.
  119. # [00:46] <deadowl> it's very much an ajax communication issue.
  120. # [00:47] <deadowl> oh, another use case actually
  121. # [00:47] <deadowl> XHR readyState=3
  122. # [00:47] <deadowl> where responseText is loaded but responseXML isn't because of the well-formedness requirement.
  123. # [00:48] <deadowl> you could partially load the responseXML if you had a tag to specify where continuity left off.
  124. # [00:48] <Hixie> so the problem is "you can't read a partial responseXML when there is a well-formedness error in the XHR data"?
  125. # [00:49] <deadowl> that wasn't technically the use case that brought it to mind, but it was one that I just thought of
  126. # [00:49] <Hixie> i don't understand the other problem... could you phrase it in the way i just phrased the xhr one?
  127. # [00:50] <deadowl> Hixie: One problem is that response.readyState==3 isn't useful if you're working with XML data. The XML data can't be accessed until request.readyState==4, even if a usable amount of XML is already loaded.
  128. # [00:50] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  129. # [00:52] <deadowl> a continuity tag would allow you to easily reconnect multiple pieces of XML broken up into smaller parts if used at DOM level.
  130. # [00:52] <Philip`> Hixie: Why doesn't http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8023 have a diff?
  131. # [00:52] <deadowl> At document level it could be used to expand paginated data.
  132. # [00:52] <deadowl> Oh, it could also be used to connect diffs.
  133. # [00:53] <deadowl> interchangably even.
  134. # [00:55] <Philip`> deadowl: Do you mean you could have XML like "<a> x <b> y | z </b> w </a>", split it at the "|" into two XML documents with some extra tag, and then merge them back into the original?
  135. # [00:59] * Quits: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186) ("Leaving.")
  136. # [01:00] * Joins: nessy (n=Adium@203-158-45-196.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  137. # [01:01] <Hixie> Philip`: dunno, script failure somewhere i guess. i added it manually.
  138. # [01:02] <Hixie> deadowl: sounds like it would make life a lot more complicated than just use document fragments or a custom DOM node, or even a range showing what's new
  139. # [01:02] <Hixie> deadowl: generally speaking you're going about this wrong, though -- we prefer to start with a clear problem description, and no idea of the solution, and then to consider solutions by evaluating them against how well they resolve the problem
  140. # [01:03] <deadowl> yea
  141. # [01:03] <Philip`> Hixie: Thanks
  142. # [01:04] * Philip` notes that the bug reporting system didn't cope very well with Unicode in that bug
  143. # [01:04] <deadowl> i'm going backward in my mind though because i thought of this as the best solution after having a problem, but its been a while since aving the problem
  144. # [01:04] <Hixie> Philip`: looks fine to me...
  145. # [01:04] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  146. # [01:05] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8023 looks like "≤" to me (in the title and comment text)
  147. # [01:06] <Hixie> maybe i set my default to utf-8
  148. # [01:06] * Philip` gets the problem in Opera and Firefox
  149. # [01:16] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  150. # [01:17] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  151. # [01:19] <daedb> Philip`: I saw "≤" in the title for like a half a second, then it auto-corrected itself (in Opera)... IE shows it unless I switch to utf-8...
  152. # [01:20] <daedb> Kinda funky, actually :)
  153. # [01:36] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  154. # [01:45] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@80.225.9.175)
  155. # [01:49] <boogyman> can someone please explain the meaning of "dirty value"
  156. # [01:49] <Philip`> In what context?
  157. # [01:49] * Quits: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@84.60.9.146) ("?Q")
  158. # [01:50] <boogyman> I am reading the HTML5 spec and the input declaration mentions a dirty value flag, but the description is confusing
  159. # [01:52] <boogyman> reference http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#concept-input-value-dirty-flag for the description given
  160. # [01:52] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  161. # [01:59] <AryehGregor> It's just a flag. The spec says when to set it and unset it, that's all the semantics it has.
  162. # [01:59] <AryehGregor> The general idea is that it's set in some cases when the value of the input is changed, and potentially cleared when the value returns to its default. You have to read the actual spec to get the full details.
  163. # [02:00] <boogyman> so it's User Agent (browser) info?
  164. # [02:01] * Quits: mikekelly (i=mookid@ROFL.name) (Remote closed the connection)
  165. # [02:01] <AryehGregor> IIRC, it's relevant to scripting as well, but I could be misremembering.
  166. # [02:03] * Quits: torchie (n=torchie@adsl-11-112-98.mia.bellsouth.net)
  167. # [02:07] * Joins: roc (n=roc@222.152.179.223)
  168. # [02:08] <boogyman> I just re-read the description "Each input element has a boolean dirty value flag. When it is true, the element is said to have a dirty value. The dirty value flag must be initially set to false when the element is created, and must be set to true whenever the user interacts with the control in a way that changes the value." ... does that translate into being any user-defined value... eg...
  169. # [02:08] <boogyman> ...not the defaultValue
  170. # [02:10] <AryehGregor> What do you mean?
  171. # [02:10] <AryehGregor> The dirty value flag is a boolean flag, it's not part of the value itself.
  172. # [02:10] <AryehGregor> (I already commented elsewhere that "value" seems to be used for too many things in this part of the spec.)
  173. # [02:10] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  174. # [02:12] <boogyman> AryehGregor: it appears to be tied to the "value" of a node
  175. # [02:12] <boogyman> "The dirty value flag must be initially set to false when the element is created, and must be set to true whenever the user interacts with the control in a way that changes the value"
  176. # [02:12] <boogyman> so when the value of the node is "changed" the flag is changed from false to true...
  177. # [02:13] <AryehGregor> Yes. I'm not sure what you're asking now.
  178. # [02:13] <boogyman> nothing now... was just confirming
  179. # [02:15] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@80.225.9.175) (Remote closed the connection)
  180. # [02:22] * Joins: mpilgrim_ (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  181. # [02:24] * Quits: mpilgrim (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  182. # [02:24] * [1]mpilgrim is now known as mpilgrim
  183. # [02:30] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  184. # [02:36] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  185. # [02:36] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  186. # [02:37] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  187. # [02:38] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-065-190-139-141.nc.res.rr.com)
  188. # [02:55] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  189. # [02:59] <boogyman> does the <button> element have a default type ?
  190. # [02:59] <boogyman> nevermind
  191. # [02:59] * Quits: mpilgrim (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  192. # [02:59] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-065-190-139-141.nc.res.rr.com)
  193. # [02:06] * Quits: deadowl (n=deadowl_@c-67-189-196-62.hsd1.vt.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  194. # [02:09] <Philip`> This bug reporting system seems a bit inefficient in terms of number of emails
  195. # [02:10] <Philip`> since the most trivial issue will involve at least four separate changes that trigger mail
  196. # [02:11] <Philip`> I don't know who Dave is but he must be getting fed up with all this spam
  197. # [02:13] <AryehGregor> You mean Bugzilla?
  198. # [02:14] <AryehGregor> A threading client is handy. :)
  199. # [02:14] * AryehGregor finally finds a site that uses <video> in its blog posts -- hacks.mozilla.org, predictably -- and of course it turns out the videos don't work properly in Chrome, audio is out of sync. Ugh.
  200. # [02:21] <nessy> is it a chrome bug?
  201. # [02:27] <AryehGregor> I have no idea.
  202. # [02:28] * Quits: boogyman (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/boogyman) ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]")
  203. # [02:28] <AryehGregor> http://videos.mozilla.org/serv/blizzard/woff/features-screencast-500.ogv
  204. # [02:28] <AryehGregor> The audio only starts a few seconds in, and it's clearly out of sync if you watch for a while.
  205. # [02:28] <AryehGregor> At least for me.
  206. # [02:28] <nessy> yeah, here, too
  207. # [02:29] <nessy> I just downloaded the latest chromium for mac
  208. # [02:30] <nessy> btw: http://blog.gingertech.net/ on my blog there are some <video> s in ogg, too - the second video doesn't seem to be scaled correctly (width/height)
  209. # [02:31] <nessy> also, strangely, a lot of the videos from http://tinyvid.tv don't work
  210. # [02:32] <nessy> I think <video> and Ogg in chrome just isn't quite there yet
  211. # [02:32] * Quits: wakaba (n=wakaba@98.225.100.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  212. # [02:32] <nessy> it's great to see it working though!!
  213. # [02:33] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@98.225.100.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  214. # [02:33] <AryehGregor> I don't know if it's Chrome specifically, or what. It could be there would be some videos that only work in Chrome and not Firefox.
  215. # [02:41] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  216. # [02:41] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  217. # [02:43] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-7-88-142.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  218. # [02:46] * Joins: deadowl (n=deadowl_@c-67-189-196-62.hsd1.vt.comcast.net)
  219. # [02:48] * Joins: sicking (n=chatzill@69.181.197.163)
  220. # [02:53] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-7-88-142.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  221. # [02:55] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-67-180-197-126.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  222. # [02:55] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-67-180-197-126.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  223. # [03:10] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  224. # [03:13] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  225. # [03:25] * AryehGregor suspects he's going to have to write a small essay in response to that decentralized extensibility thread at some point, time permitting
  226. # [03:25] * AryehGregor hasn't looked at it for days
  227. # [03:53] * Joins: mmn1 (n=mmn@CPE0014d1463485-CM00194746f84a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  228. # [03:53] * Quits: mmn (n=mmn@CPE0014d1463485-CM00194746f84a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  229. # [04:03] <nessy> funny - http://videos.mozilla.org/serv/blizzard/woff/features-screencast-500.ogv breaks in my vlc
  230. # [04:08] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  231. # [04:30] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  232. # [04:53] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  233. # [05:03] * Joins: mitnavn (n=mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn)
  234. # [05:24] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  235. # [05:34] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  236. # [05:38] * Quits: JoePeck (n=JoePeck@cpe-74-69-85-249.rochester.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  237. # [05:38] * Joins: JoePeck (n=JoePeck@cpe-74-69-85-249.rochester.res.rr.com)
  238. # [05:55] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  239. # [06:01] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  240. # [06:02] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  241. # [06:32] * Joins: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  242. # [07:48] * Joins: dimich_ (n=dimich@c-98-203-252-208.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  243. # [07:50] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  244. # [07:50] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  245. # [08:00] * Quits: Rimdeker (i=Rimdeker@84.60.245.166) ("Leaving")
  246. # [08:02] * Joins: yoshu (n=josh@174-18-212-76.tcso.qwest.net)
  247. # [08:11] * Quits: yoshu (n=josh@174-18-212-76.tcso.qwest.net)
  248. # [08:11] * Joins: yoshu (n=josh@174-18-212-76.tcso.qwest.net)
  249. # [08:12] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.1.3/20090909051541]")
  250. # [08:33] * Quits: mmn1 (n=mmn@CPE0014d1463485-CM00194746f84a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) ("Leaving.")
  251. # [08:47] * lmorchard is now known as lmorchard|away
  252. # [08:58] * Joins: mpilgrim__ (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  253. # [08:58] * Quits: mpilgrim_ (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  254. # [09:00] * Quits: yoshu (n=josh@174-18-212-76.tcso.qwest.net)
  255. # [09:02] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.106.14)
  256. # [09:10] * Joins: workmad3 (n=davidwor@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  257. # [09:18] * Quits: cfq (n=cfq@94-194-98-91.zone8.bethere.co.uk)
  258. # [09:21] * Joins: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186)
  259. # [09:40] * Quits: sicking (n=chatzill@69.181.197.163) ("ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.13/2009073109]")
  260. # [09:54] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-64-100.dynamic.amis.net)
  261. # [09:56] * Quits: dimich_ (n=dimich@c-98-203-252-208.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  262. # [09:56] <Philip`> AryehGregor: I do mean Bugzilla, though it doesn't affect me directly since I've reported all the bugs anonymously and never get emailed
  263. # [10:02] <Hixie> i just filter it all out
  264. # [10:02] <Hixie> and hope that someone is checking that reporters are REOPENing bugs they filed when they reply
  265. # [10:02] <Hixie> (i am a little concerned that the default permissions don't allow that)
  266. # [10:03] <Hixie> (i've been spot-checking e-mails that don't look like e-mails caused by me or indicating someone marking a bug CLOSED
  267. # [10:03] <Hixie> in case nobody else is looking...)
  268. # [10:09] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  269. # [10:16] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  270. # [10:17] * Quits: GPH-Laptop (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  271. # [10:20] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  272. # [10:23] * Quits: yutak_home (n=kee@R214157.ppp.dion.ne.jp) ("Ex-Chat")
  273. # [10:24] <Philip`> Am I right in assuming the float reflection stuff is all new (for <progress> and <meter>) and not already implemented anywhere?
  274. # [10:26] <Hixie> progress, meter, and some <input> stuff
  275. # [10:26] <Hixie> all new though yes
  276. # [10:27] <Hixie> dunno if the input stuff is implemented in opera/webkit yet
  277. # [10:27] <Hixie> it probably needs updating if it is anyway
  278. # [10:27] <Hixie> so it's changeable
  279. # [10:36] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  280. # [10:44] * Quits: mitnavn (n=mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn)
  281. # [10:51] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-64-100.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  282. # [10:55] * Parts: workmad3 (n=davidwor@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  283. # [11:31] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  284. # [11:58] * Joins: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@102.80-202-87.nextgentel.com)
  285. # [12:20] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  286. # [12:27] <Philip`> zcorpan: Do you have any idea why the '<' of </title> got eaten on lots of pages?
  287. # [12:28] <Philip`> I only looked at one but that seemed to be labelled as shift_jis properly, so I wonder if it's a problem with the decoder
  288. # [12:28] <Philip`> (rather than with the encoding detector)
  289. # [12:31] <zcorpan> Philip`: yeah maybe it's a problem with the decoder
  290. # [12:41] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@U3379.u.pppool.de)
  291. # [12:47] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  292. # [12:56] * Quits: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186) ("Leaving.")
  293. # [12:57] * Joins: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186)
  294. # [13:09] * Quits: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  295. # [13:09] * Quits: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186) ("Leaving.")
  296. # [13:15] * Joins: vvv (n=vvv@mediawiki/VasilievVV)
  297. # [13:18] * Joins: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186)
  298. # [13:20] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-229-13.bredband.comhem.se)
  299. # [13:22] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yeah, html5lib 0.12 will be required for Anolis 1.1, which is the entire reason I've been pushing to get 0.12 out :)
  300. # [13:28] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p2102-ipbf6805marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  301. # [13:31] * Joins: Midler (n=midler@212.37.124.243)
  302. # [13:40] <zcorpan> it would probably be good to make <style><!--</style> invalid
  303. # [13:47] <jgraham> gsnedders: and all this time I thought that you cared :(
  304. # [13:47] <gsnedders> jgraham: No, not really.
  305. # [13:49] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  306. # [13:57] <erlehmann> zcorpan, it it such a hardship for parsers? if so, why doesn't that also apply to <script><!--</script> ?
  307. # [14:10] <gsnedders> erlehmann: That already is invalid
  308. # [14:10] <erlehmann> urgs
  309. # [14:10] <gsnedders> erlehmann: I guess the point is to stop the conformance criteria for script and style from diverging
  310. # [14:11] <gsnedders> erlehmann: There's a lot of magic in the parser for script, esp. involving comments.
  311. # [14:12] <erlehmann> curse those SGML inventors
  312. # [14:13] <gsnedders> This has nothing to do with SGML, but with legacy content with all kinds of weird comments in script, and not wanting to reparse
  313. # [14:15] <zcorpan> erlehmann: this sillyness is a result of browsers doing reparsing
  314. # [14:16] <Lachy> erlehmann, SGML actually had relatively sane parsing requirements for CDATA element content, compared with what we have now for <script>
  315. # [14:19] * Joins: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  316. # [14:22] <Philip`> It would have been fine if browsers had all used SGML parsers
  317. # [14:30] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  318. # [14:34] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.106.14) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  319. # [14:39] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-64-100.dynamic.amis.net)
  320. # [14:42] * Quits: Midler (n=midler@212.37.124.243) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  321. # [14:47] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  322. # [14:57] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.121.13)
  323. # [15:05] * Quits: inimino (n=inimino@67.207.138.202) (SendQ exceeded)
  324. # [15:06] * Quits: vvv (n=vvv@mediawiki/VasilievVV) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  325. # [15:06] * Joins: inimino (n=inimino@atekomi.inimino.org)
  326. # [15:08] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p2102-ipbf6805marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  327. # [15:12] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
  328. # [15:15] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@U3379.u.pppool.de) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  329. # [15:15] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@BAE0ca1.bae.pppool.de)
  330. # [15:21] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  331. # [15:26] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@162.179.251.212.customer.cdi.no)
  332. # [15:31] * Joins: fishd (n=darin@67.180.164.209)
  333. # [15:35] * Joins: Midler (n=midler@212.37.124.243)
  334. # [15:39] * Joins: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
  335. # [15:44] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  336. # [15:51] * Joins: boogyman (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  337. # [15:52] * Quits: nessy (n=Adium@203-158-45-196.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("Leaving.")
  338. # [15:53] * Quits: fishd (n=darin@67.180.164.209) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  339. # [15:53] * Joins: eighty4 (n=eighty4@eighty4.se)
  340. # [15:55] * Quits: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186) ("Leaving.")
  341. # [15:59] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  342. # [15:59] * Joins: nessy (n=Adium@203-158-45-196.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  343. # [16:00] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  344. # [16:00] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  345. # [16:02] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  346. # [16:05] * Quits: nessy (n=Adium@203-158-45-196.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("Leaving.")
  347. # [16:07] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Client Quit)
  348. # [16:07] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  349. # [16:08] * Parts: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-64-100.dynamic.amis.net)
  350. # [16:09] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.121.13) ("Ex-Chat")
  351. # [16:16] * Joins: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE00222d5410b8-CM00222d5410b5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  352. # [16:16] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.121.13)
  353. # [16:18] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  354. # [16:21] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  355. # [16:23] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Remote closed the connection)
  356. # [16:24] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  357. # [16:26] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  358. # [16:27] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  359. # [16:31] * Joins: mitnavn (n=mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn)
  360. # [16:36] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  361. # [16:40] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p2102-ipbf6805marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  362. # [16:40] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  363. # [16:43] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  364. # [16:47] * Joins: smaug (n=chatzill@82.181.150.24)
  365. # [17:04] * Joins: mmn (n=mmn@CPE0014d1463485-CM00194746f84a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  366. # [17:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: Technically the license requires a link back to the flickr page as well
  367. # [17:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: Stop using other people's Facebook accounts.
  368. # [17:13] <jgraham> (since you bothered to get the bit about the link to the license right, I guess you should probably follow its terms :) )
  369. # [17:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: Where does it require a link back to Flickr?
  370. # [17:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: Other people using their facebook accounts told me about the information displyed therein
  371. # [17:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: AFAIK all I'm required to do is credit the creator of the work, which I do
  372. # [17:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: 4.c
  373. # [17:14] <jgraham> "to the extent reasonably practicable, the Uniform Resource Identifier, if any, that Licensor specifies to be associated with the Work"
  374. # [17:15] <jgraham> which n this cse could reasnably be assumed to be the flickr page and is evidently practical (since you can create links and all)
  375. # [17:15] <gsnedders> jgraham: Ah, I didn't see that before. Fixed now.
  376. # [17:16] * gsnedders wonders how his hair manages to look as if it is not up against his head without hanging down
  377. # [17:24] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@dslb-084-060-044-197.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  378. # [17:32] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  379. # [17:32] * Joins: TabAtkins (n=chatzill@70-139-15-246.lightspeed.rsbgtx.sbcglobal.net)
  380. # [17:38] * Quits: JoePeck (n=JoePeck@cpe-74-69-85-249.rochester.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  381. # [17:38] * Joins: JoePeck (n=JoePeck@cpe-74-69-85-249.rochester.res.rr.com)
  382. # [17:40] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.121.13) (Remote closed the connection)
  383. # [17:52] * Joins: cfq (n=cfq@94-194-98-91.zone8.bethere.co.uk)
  384. # [17:53] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.121.13)
  385. # [18:00] * Joins: svtec2 (i=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  386. # [18:01] * Quits: daedb (n=daed@h11n1fls34o986.telia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  387. # [18:01] * Joins: GPHemsley (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
  388. # [18:05] * Quits: inimino (n=inimino@atekomi.inimino.org) (SendQ exceeded)
  389. # [18:07] * Joins: inimino (n=inimino@atekomi.inimino.org)
  390. # [18:07] * Quits: svtec2 (i=stanv@83.228.56.37) (Client Quit)
  391. # [18:21] * Quits: cfq (n=cfq@94-194-98-91.zone8.bethere.co.uk)
  392. # [18:21] * Joins: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186)
  393. # [18:22] * Quits: eighty4 (n=eighty4@eighty4.se) ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net")
  394. # [18:23] * Quits: inimino (n=inimino@atekomi.inimino.org) (SendQ exceeded)
  395. # [18:24] * Joins: inimino (n=inimino@atekomi.inimino.org)
  396. # [18:27] * Joins: zalan (n=zalan@89.135.144.122)
  397. # [18:28] * Quits: inimino (n=inimino@atekomi.inimino.org) (SendQ exceeded)
  398. # [18:30] * Joins: inimino (n=inimino@atekomi.inimino.org)
  399. # [18:40] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik`@ARennes-359-1-39-136.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  400. # [18:43] * Joins: eighty4 (n=eighty4@eighty4.se)
  401. # [18:52] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@cpc2-acto9-0-0-cust364.brnt.cable.ntl.com)
  402. # [19:17] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  403. # [19:17] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p2102-ipbf6805marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  404. # [19:22] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  405. # [19:23] * Quits: erikvvold (n=erikvvol@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
  406. # [19:28] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  407. # [19:30] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@BAE0ca1.bae.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  408. # [19:32] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-229-13.bredband.comhem.se)
  409. # [19:33] * Quits: Phae (n=phaeness@cpc2-acto9-0-0-cust364.brnt.cable.ntl.com)
  410. # [19:43] * Joins: cfq (n=cfq@94-194-98-91.zone8.bethere.co.uk)
  411. # [19:57] * Joins: GPH-Laptop (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
  412. # [20:08] * Quits: GPHemsley (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  413. # [20:09] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-229-13.bredband.comhem.se)
  414. # [20:10] * Quits: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@102.80-202-87.nextgentel.com)
  415. # [20:18] * Quits: zalan (n=zalan@89.135.144.122) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  416. # [20:25] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  417. # [21:00] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  418. # [21:03] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  419. # [21:17] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.121.13) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  420. # [21:21] * Quits: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE00222d5410b8-CM00222d5410b5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  421. # [21:24] * Quits: GPH-Laptop (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) ("Leaving")
  422. # [21:28] * Joins: darobin (n=robin@85-169-59-54.rev.numericable.fr)
  423. # [21:42] * Quits: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  424. # [21:44] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  425. # [21:47] * Joins: nessy (n=Adium@203.158.45.196)
  426. # [21:49] * Quits: darobin (n=robin@85-169-59-54.rev.numericable.fr) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  427. # [21:52] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@140.247.45.180)
  428. # [21:53] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  429. # [21:55] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.121.10)
  430. # [22:02] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-229-13.bredband.comhem.se)
  431. # [22:06] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@ARennes-359-1-39-136.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  432. # [22:09] * Joins: othree_ (n=othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw)
  433. # [22:11] * Joins: annevk42 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  434. # [22:24] * Quits: othree (n=othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  435. # [22:27] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  436. # [22:35] * Quits: JoePeck (n=JoePeck@cpe-74-69-85-249.rochester.res.rr.com)
  437. # [22:35] * Quits: annevk42 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  438. # [22:36] * Joins: JoePeck (n=JoePeck@cpe-74-69-85-249.rochester.res.rr.com)
  439. # [22:38] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@140.247.45.180) (Remote closed the connection)
  440. # [22:38] * Joins: yoshu (n=josh@174-18-212-76.tcso.qwest.net)
  441. # [22:39] * Quits: JoePeck (n=JoePeck@cpe-74-69-85-249.rochester.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
  442. # [22:40] * Joins: GPHemsley (n=GPHemsle@ool-457183d3.dyn.optonline.net)
  443. # [22:43] * Quits: roc (n=roc@222.152.179.223)
  444. # [22:44] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  445. # [22:47] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0059871802-99-6d.client.student.harvard.edu)
  446. # [22:49] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0059871802-99-6d.client.student.harvard.edu) (Remote closed the connection)
  447. # [23:01] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  448. # [23:01] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  449. # [23:03] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  450. # [23:08] * Quits: yoshu (n=josh@174-18-212-76.tcso.qwest.net)
  451. # Session Close: Mon Oct 26 00:00:00 2009

The end :)