/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 27 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  15. # [00:29] <hober> annevk: my understanding is that microdata is a one-off re: your question about status quo proposals
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  24. # [01:09] <Tripknotix> whats, whatwg stand for
  25. # [01:10] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.19.151)
  26. # [01:10] <Hixie> Tripknotix: Web Hypertext Application Technology Working Group
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  29. # [01:11] <Tripknotix> so whys this the place to talk about html5 ?
  30. # [01:11] <Hixie> WHATWG is one of the groups working on HTML5
  31. # [01:12] <Tripknotix> oh
  32. # [01:12] <Tripknotix> interesting
  33. # [01:12] <Hixie> see also www.whatwg.org and http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ
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  214. # [06:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen_: please ping me when you get back on -- if/when you have time to chat a little. I want to ask some boneheaded questions about how to actually get the v.nu error-handling backend to report warnings for exceptions that have warningness set
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  217. # [06:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen_: in the mean time I'll read more through the code to try to give myself some clue
  218. # [06:27] <MikeSmith> and your thesis
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  243. # [08:30] <hsivonen_> Hixie: I'm here now
  244. # [08:30] <hsivonen_> looks like MikeSmith just left :-(
  245. # [08:31] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  246. # [08:33] <hsivonen_> oh. a new ED of XHTML2
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  251. # [08:51] <Hixie> hsivonen_: i don't recall why i was pinging you, sorry.
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  253. # [08:53] <hsivonen_> Hixie: ok
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  256. # [09:06] <Philip`> "<zcorpan> so when's WHATWG LC? <Hixie> probably monday" - it's late :'-(
  257. # [09:06] <Philip`> in most timezones
  258. # [09:06] <Hixie> yeah, gonna be tomorrow night my timezone i think
  259. # [09:20] <a-ja> anyone know of a microdata extractor/tester service that works with recent spec changes?
  260. # [09:21] * a-ja only found one for circa may timeframe
  261. # [09:21] * Joins: tyoshino (n=tyoshino@220.109.219.244)
  262. # [09:23] <Hixie> i'm not aware of any, but it wouldn't be hard to make one
  263. # [09:24] <a-ja> was just playing with trying to make some calendars / vcards "multi-lingual"....uF and microdata
  264. # [09:25] <Hixie> cool
  265. # [09:26] <a-ja> it's not exactly pretty :)
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  267. # [09:31] <jgraham> a-ja: I am in the process of updating my python implementation to the latest spec. It will probably take a few more evenings since I'm not trying very hard
  268. # [09:32] <a-ja> oh, cool....i'll check it again soon then
  269. # [09:36] <Philip`> I'm not in the process of updating my JS implementation
  270. # [09:36] <Philip`> Someone else could feel free to fix it for me :-)
  271. # [09:36] <a-ja> fwiw....seemed to me that included format adr & geo should get added to html5. and perhaps let vevent location have addr/geo instead of just text
  272. # [09:37] <a-ja> erm....adr/geo/vcard
  273. # [09:38] <a-ja> Philip`: URL?
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  276. # [09:42] <Philip`> a-ja: http://philip.html5.org/demos/microdata/demo.html
  277. # [09:43] <a-ja> tks......seen it before and have it bookmarked already
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  283. # [10:12] <hsivonen_> Is a control named isindex magic in IE even if the submission encoding type is not the default?
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  285. # [10:12] * hsivonen_ is now known as hsivonen
  286. # [10:16] <hsivonen> never mind
  287. # [10:20] * Quits: fishd__ (n=darin@67.180.164.209) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  288. # [10:20] <hsivonen> eww. Are browsers really supposed to submit the localized string for "Submit" when the submit button has no specified value?
  289. # [10:23] <Hixie> they already do, no?
  290. # [10:24] <zcorpan_> doesn't the spec just talk about the button's label?
  291. # [10:24] <Hixie> hm, maybe the spec doesn't require it?
  292. # [10:24] <Hixie> i dunno
  293. # [10:24] <Hixie> file bugs if the spec is wrong
  294. # [10:24] <zcorpan_> "If the element has a value attribute, the button's label must be the value of that attribute; otherwise, it must be an implementation-defined string that means "Submit" or some such."
  295. # [10:24] <zcorpan_> what does "it" refer to?
  296. # [10:26] <zcorpan_> i guess it can only refer to "the button's label"
  297. # [10:26] * zcorpan_ looks at the form submission algorithm
  298. # [10:31] <zcorpan_> "The value IDL attribute is in mode default."
  299. # [10:32] <zcorpan_> "On getting, if the element has a value attribute, it must return that attribute's value; otherwise, it must return the empty string."
  300. # [10:34] <zcorpan_> "Each input element has a value, which is exposed by the value IDL attribute."
  301. # [10:35] <zcorpan_> "Otherwise, append an entry in the form data set with name as the name, the value of the field element as the value, and type as the type."
  302. # [10:36] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12)
  303. # [10:37] <zcorpan_> is that right?
  304. # [10:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: it seems that Gecko already submits the localized string for "Submit"
  305. # [10:40] <hsivonen> it seems like a bad idea to make the submission dependent on localization, but I guess that's the way the legacy is
  306. # [10:42] <Hixie> does it affect the DOM also?
  307. # [10:42] <Hixie> oh, crap, the IETF is having a meeting again, so I can't update the I-D
  308. # [10:42] <Hixie> man, the IETF is really annoying
  309. # [10:43] <zcorpan_> opera even sets the content attribute value="Submit"
  310. # [10:43] <zcorpan_> but that's a bug
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  313. # [10:47] <zcorpan_> Hixie: don't we want to have the same requirement for <title> and the others?
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  316. # [10:48] * Philip` sees that websocket has long surpassed http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsext-mdns-47 in number of revisions
  317. # [10:50] <Hixie> zcorpan_: hm?
  318. # [10:51] <Hixie> Philip`: it's still far behind html5!
  319. # [10:51] <zcorpan_> Hixie: the restriction you added to <style>
  320. # [10:51] <Hixie> i don't really want to have it on <style>, let alone anything else
  321. # [10:51] * gsnedders|work wonders what happens after 99
  322. # [10:51] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: 100
  323. # [10:52] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: I thought you knew how to count
  324. # [10:52] * gsnedders|work wonders if any I-D has ever hit that
  325. # [10:52] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: websocket seems to be the highest that I can see, and dnsext-mdns is second
  326. # [10:52] <zcorpan_> Hixie: ok. i guess it's mostly just a problem for script and style anyway
  327. # [10:52] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: But they're deleted after six months, so that's not very interested
  328. # [10:52] <gsnedders|work> *interesting
  329. # [10:53] <Philip`> Hixie: Sadly HTML5 still has far to go before catching up with KDE in number of revisions
  330. # [10:54] <Hixie> There's only one of me :-P
  331. # [10:54] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Deleted from tools.ietf.org too?
  332. # [10:54] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  333. # [10:54] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: Ah, no, they aren't.
  334. # [10:54] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  335. # [10:54] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: Clone yourself.
  336. # [10:55] * Philip` was looking at stuff like http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Atools.ietf.org+inurl%3Ahtml%2Fdraft+inurl%3A30
  337. # [10:59] <hsivonen> hrm. VideoPress supports Theora but their front page tries to serve Flash to Minefield
  338. # [11:03] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: because Minefield isn't Firefox 3.5?
  339. # [11:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: dunno
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  341. # [11:08] <Hixie> Philip`: for 8047, any reason I couldn't just invoke the WebIDL algorithm directly?
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  345. # [11:12] <Philip`> Hixie: That would be a type error, because the WebIDL algorithm expects an ECMAScript value whereas HTML5 has an unlimited-precision decimal number
  346. # [11:12] <Hixie> yeah, but other than that
  347. # [11:13] <DrEvil> can web workers 'watch' page transitions?
  348. # [11:13] <Hixie> DrEvil: shared workers can listen to what their pages tell them, but they have no view to the outside world other than that
  349. # [11:13] <Philip`> and I think the type error has practical consequences, because it affects how rounding is computed
  350. # [11:13] <Hixie> k
  351. # [11:14] <DrEvil> Hixie: so a web worker cannot watch to see the window location changing?
  352. # [11:14] <Hixie> correct
  353. # [11:14] <Hixie> a
  354. # [11:14] <Hixie> a dedicated worker will be shut down when the pages moves on
  355. # [11:14] <Hixie> a shared worker will live on if other pages are talking to it only
  356. # [11:15] <Hixie> Philip`: can you think of any reason why the parsing algorithm shouldn't just always convert to a float?
  357. # [11:15] <Philip`> Maybe it'd be much easier to replace the whole float-parsing thing with ECMAScript ToNumber, and have it return a proper floating-point number rather than an impossible hypothetical unlimited-precision number
  358. # [11:15] * Quits: cedricv (n=cedric@116.197.223.40)
  359. # [11:15] <DrEvil> hmm so there is not a way for which to view informations on page changes with browsers?
  360. # [11:16] <Hixie> DrEvil: how do you mean?
  361. # [11:16] <DrEvil> say for analysing requests and responses from server
  362. # [11:17] <Hixie> DrEvil: what are you trying to do?
  363. # [11:17] * jgraham thought that most ES algorithms were written in terms of abstract, unlimited precision numbers and converted to concrete representations at the last possible moment
  364. # [11:17] <webben> DrEvil: Isn't that what your server access logs do?
  365. # [11:17] <DrEvil> on the client I mean
  366. # [11:17] <DrEvil> with javascript
  367. # [11:17] <jgraham> (but I don't recall exactly what you are talking about and I don't fedel incline to check unless someone wants me to)
  368. # [11:17] <Philip`> jgraham: I don't know about most algorithms, but it defines how to convert a string into a Number (i.e. a 64-bit floating point value), and WebIDL defines how to convert a Number to an IDL float (32-bit)
  369. # [11:17] <webben> DrEvil: Sure there is. Firebug and LiveHTTPHeaders do so, for instance. They just don't run out of a page.
  370. # [11:17] <Philip`> which seems to be what's needed here
  371. # [11:18] <DrEvil> webben: I am looking for something to run as code on demand not to be requiring addon
  372. # [11:18] <jgraham> Philip`: So you're saying that HTML5 should just work in terms of some concrete representation rather than an abstract number?
  373. # [11:19] <webben> DrEvil: There's no reason a browser can't incorporate those features if it wants.
  374. # [11:19] <DrEvil> as an example - I want to create a javascript application which can be included into page - it will read the details of requests/response for page and provide a status bar with details at the bottom of the pgae
  375. # [11:19] <DrEvil> but I cannot see this information with javascrit
  376. # [11:19] <DrEvil> I cannot do with workers?
  377. # [11:20] <webben> DrEvil: You can see it if your script is making the requests.
  378. # [11:20] <DrEvil> but if the browser location is changing?
  379. # [11:20] <DrEvil> I want to host the script and have authors include this one script in their pages
  380. # [11:20] <Philip`> jgraham: The view ES/WebIDL takes (if I'm not mistaken) is that floating-point numbers are an abstract concept of a finite set of real numbers, and the byte-level representation is irrelevant
  381. # [11:21] <Philip`> jgraham: so it's still non-concrete
  382. # [11:21] <DrEvil> but at the moment I cannot see how it is I can get this information with javascript
  383. # [11:21] <webben> DrEvil: It sounds to me like allowing any old script in a page to capture requests/responses even after the page was closed would contravene the browser security model left right and center, and is it's easy for developers to use tools like Firebug, I don't really see what real-world problem you are solving.
  384. # [11:21] <webben> *as it's
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  386. # [11:22] <DrEvil> I don't think that is much security concern
  387. # [11:23] <DrEvil> maybe for request you would remove authorization
  388. # [11:23] <webben> Really? What would be the limitation on someone including a script in a page and using it to track all my subsequent movements?
  389. # [11:23] <DrEvil> but for response it is not risk
  390. # [11:23] <Philip`> I think I'm saying that instead of HTML5 defining how to parse a string into an unlimited-precision number, and then defining how to convert it to a member of the finite floating-point set of numbers for IDL, it should instead parse the string into a member of the finite set directly in the same way that ES does
  391. # [11:23] <Philip`> (and then the conversion to ES Number is trivial)
  392. # [11:23] <DrEvil> what http headers are you thinking of in response that present risk?
  393. # [11:23] <Philip`> (and WebIDL handles the conversion to IDL float)
  394. # [11:23] <webben> DrEvil: All of them. It's /my/ traffic. Not to be sniffed by random websites I visit.
  395. # [11:23] <Philip`> (unless I'm getting stuff mixed up)
  396. # [11:24] <DrEvil> it's not sniffed random the author has to chose to include script
  397. # [11:24] <DrEvil> so this is correct - it is possible for author to design now custom solution with on click events for links
  398. # [11:24] <webben> DrEvil: Yes. But you want the sniffing to continue once one has left the page.
  399. # [11:25] <DrEvil> no for response information available each page
  400. # [11:25] <DrEvil> individually
  401. # [11:25] <jgraham> Philip`: I see. There is some level of concreteness in Ecmascript through the to (U)Int algorithms which are needed for things like bitwise operators applied to Numbers
  402. # [11:25] <webben> DrEvil: You asked what happens if .location changes - that's leaving the page.
  403. # [11:25] <DrEvil> this is interesting because some sites they use URI for sensitive information - this is available already to javascript
  404. # [11:25] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  405. # [11:25] <jgraham> Philip`: But you plan sounds like a rather sensible approach
  406. # [11:26] <webben> DrEvil: Not to scripts loaded on previously visited pages.
  407. # [11:26] <hsivonen> hrm. XiphQT doesn't with QuickTime Player X
  408. # [11:26] <DrEvil> I do not need to scripts on previous pages I was thinking more to find a solution
  409. # [11:26] <DrEvil> if it is possible some other way that my javascript can include on the page and get that inforamtion each time that is better
  410. # [11:27] <DrEvil> so I can access the response information - more than just location
  411. # [11:27] <webben> DrEvil: If you "do not need to scripts on previous pages", what do you mean by tracking traffic across .location changes?
  412. # [11:27] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@dslb-084-060-053-084.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  413. # [11:27] <Philip`> (Oh, I might be a little mixed up - if the IDL uses float, then HTML5 probably needs the value to be part of the set of 32-bit floats. Or HTML5 could just use double.)
  414. # [11:27] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: AFAIK it should work if you have QT7 installed
  415. # [11:27] <DrEvil> I say wrong - I mean to say that I wish to view response information on each page
  416. # [11:27] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: yes, I noticed that
  417. # [11:28] <webben> DrEvil: What if a page requests a resource (e.g. an iframe src) on another domain?
  418. # [11:28] <gsnedders|work> (QT X has no native support extensions, and just uses QTKit for unknown codecs if it is installed)
  419. # [11:28] <webben> DrEvil: Sniffing that would contravene same-origin policies.
  420. # [11:28] <gsnedders|work> s/ if it is installed//
  421. # [11:28] <webben> DrEvil: Your use-case is handled so much better by tools like Firebug.
  422. # [11:29] <DrEvil> webben: I am not understanding this is relevant I am not saying sniffing
  423. # [11:29] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: do QT X and QT 7 have totally different back ends?
  424. # [11:29] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: As I understand it, yes.
  425. # [11:29] <DrEvil> I meant to say that when a page loads I wish to see the information after the fact
  426. # [11:29] <DrEvil> from the response
  427. # [11:29] <webben> DrEvil: s/sniffing/viewing/
  428. # [11:29] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: Both can be used via QTKit, and QTKit just chooses the best for what codec you want
  429. # [11:29] <DrEvil> so I can show maybe ETag headers.. ?
  430. # [11:29] <DrEvil> or something like this
  431. # [11:29] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: I see. That wasn't exactly clear from marketing material or from the Snow Leopard installer
  432. # [11:30] <DrEvil> I have some application which it presents standard information in the server responses
  433. # [11:30] <DrEvil> in the headers
  434. # [11:30] <DrEvil> if I am use XHR I can get this
  435. # [11:30] <gsnedders|work> (and for anything apart from the default built-in codecs in QT X, that means using QT7)
  436. # [11:30] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: and QT Player X deliberately configures QTKit never to use the QuickTime 7 back end? that's odd
  437. # [11:30] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: No
  438. # [11:30] <webben> DrEvil: Yes I understand what you're saying - but it's totally undesirable from a security/privacy standpoint AFAICT.
  439. # [11:30] <DrEvil> but for new page javascript cannot see - all javascript sees is the location
  440. # [11:31] <DrEvil> webben: what information in response you are talking about security ?
  441. # [11:31] <hsivonen> why doesn't QT Player X choose the QT7 back end for ogg, then?
  442. # [11:31] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: It should
  443. # [11:31] <hsivonen> hmm.
  444. # [11:31] <webben> DrEvil: Whereas in-built browser tools or add-ons like Firebug can do more and do it better and without damaging security/privacy
  445. # [11:31] * Joins: Midler (n=midler@95.209.13.168.bredband.tre.se)
  446. # [11:31] <DrEvil> webben: there must be trust given to code on demand
  447. # [11:31] <hsivonen> does the new back end have extension APIs at all or just new extension APIs?
  448. # [11:31] <DrEvil> has to be there is sensitive information in pages which use javascript
  449. # [11:32] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: It has none AFAIK
  450. # [11:32] <webben> DrEvil: On the contrary, such code should be distrusted as much as possible.
  451. # [11:32] <DrEvil> this is just more of information in response that is in headers
  452. # [11:32] <DrEvil> not more or less sensitive
  453. # [11:32] <DrEvil> just more information
  454. # [11:32] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: well that's an interesting change of policy
  455. # [11:32] <DrEvil> if it is html page I can still use javascript extract values from page elements
  456. # [11:32] <hsivonen> Snow Leopard installer didn't make it exactly clear what the "older media formats" that require QuickTime Player 7 are
  457. # [11:32] <DrEvil> so what of the headers - they are just information to me
  458. # [11:32] <DrEvil> I want to understand what it is in the headers you are worrying about
  459. # [11:32] <hsivonen> QT7 back end is installed by default even though the player isn't, right?
  460. # [11:32] <DrEvil> so I can think about this
  461. # [11:33] <webben> DrEvil: Yes. However, if there's an iframe on the page and its from another domain you cannot introspect its DOM.
  462. # [11:33] <hsivonen> since the QT7 Player option was just a couple of MB
  463. # [11:33] <webben> DrEvil: It would be similarly inappropriate to allow scripts to introspect its headers.
  464. # [11:33] <DrEvil> no - this would not be the case either for javascript is only capable of seeing request information from its current window
  465. # [11:33] <DrEvil> same as location etc.
  466. # [11:34] <webben> DrEvil: So you're not asking for the ability to view HTTP information for resources included in the page from other domains?
  467. # [11:34] * Quits: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@dslb-088-077-087-047.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  468. # [11:34] <DrEvil> no
  469. # [11:34] <DrEvil> just for current page
  470. # [11:34] <DrEvil> window.XHResponse.getHeader('Etag')
  471. # [11:34] <webben> DrEvil: When you say the current page... do you mean the HTML page as opposed to the resources it includes?
  472. # [11:34] <DrEvil> or something like this
  473. # [11:35] <DrEvil> I mean for the URI really
  474. # [11:35] <webben> I see.
  475. # [11:35] <hsivonen> I guess I should have read the John Siracusa treatment of SL
  476. # [11:35] <DrEvil> for the response but html/javascript is main use case
  477. # [11:35] <DrEvil> I assume this is good place asking?
  478. # [11:35] <DrEvil> I will stop if that is wrong
  479. # [11:35] <webben> It's not a bad place.
  480. # [11:36] <DrEvil> but this makes sense yes? it is the same as window.location
  481. # [11:36] <DrEvil> but for the other metadata in the response also
  482. # [11:36] <DrEvil> I cannot see the way to do this now
  483. # [11:36] <Hixie> nn
  484. # [11:37] <webben> DrEvil: Can you think of a use-case other than creating a poor man's Firebug/wireshark?
  485. # [11:37] <DrEvil> for some standard of server responses and metadata framework
  486. # [11:37] <DrEvil> for standard information on a resource
  487. # [11:38] <DrEvil> create standard widget which inspect response on page load
  488. # [11:38] <webben> for what?
  489. # [11:38] <DrEvil> provide metadata widget
  490. # [11:38] <DrEvil> from information in headers
  491. # [11:38] <webben> why would a user want a "metadata widget from information in headers"?
  492. # [11:38] * Joins: yutak_home (n=kee@R214157.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  493. # [11:38] <DrEvil> because there are standards which are using this
  494. # [11:39] <DrEvil> such as new OCCI standard using this
  495. # [11:39] <DrEvil> and they make use http headers so they page load but need to render the metadata to a page for users
  496. # [11:39] <webben> DrEvil: What metadata that a user would want to see is being send as an HTTP response header?
  497. # [11:39] <webben> *sent
  498. # [11:40] <DrEvil> they have standards such as resource ID, link relations, resource category
  499. # [11:40] <DrEvil> this is something that can be in html
  500. # [11:40] <webben> Indeed.
  501. # [11:40] <DrEvil> but mostly for display authorative is headers
  502. # [11:40] <DrEvil> so for system pruposes and standard
  503. # [11:40] <DrEvil> easier if standard library which is included in page for this
  504. # [11:40] <webben> Doesn't sound like it needs changes to the DOM ... just put the information in the body of the response.
  505. # [11:41] <webben> That way, it will work without scripting.
  506. # [11:41] <webben> So the end-user benefits.
  507. # [11:41] <DrEvil> yes it is possible to do this but to go with standard it will need analyse the headers
  508. # [11:42] <DrEvil> so user can use browser viewing raw data as machine
  509. # [11:42] <DrEvil> also html is useful but to view true headers is necessary use case
  510. # [11:43] <DrEvil> there is to say there is not to be this in browser ever a solution?
  511. # [11:43] <DrEvil> :(
  512. # [11:43] <webben> DrEvil: I'm not sure I understand what you're saying
  513. # [11:44] <annevk2> probably not a generic solution for a long time
  514. # [11:44] <DrEvil> this is information which is there for the browser to present to javascript
  515. # [11:44] <annevk2> for reading response headers
  516. # [11:44] <DrEvil> yes?
  517. # [11:44] <webben> DrEvil: Could you link to the standard which says you must use HTTP headers not the body to present the information?
  518. # [11:44] <DrEvil> yes ok 2 mins
  519. # [11:46] <DrEvil> http://occi.googlecode.com/hg/docs/occi-core.html
  520. # [11:46] <DrEvil> metadata standardised with headers
  521. # [11:46] <DrEvil> this means all metadata can be provided regardless of format
  522. # [11:47] <DrEvil> so can still have useful response for jpeg/pdf/html/OVF/etc.
  523. # [11:47] <DrEvil> better standardise this way gives more flexibility for providers
  524. # [11:48] <DrEvil> annevk2: for a long time?
  525. # [11:48] <DrEvil> a couple of weeks?
  526. # [11:48] <DrEvil> :))
  527. # [11:48] <DrEvil> I would be interested to know how long this is you are thinking
  528. # [11:48] <DrEvil> that is bad news if it is very very long time, there are many people look now to use headers for this purpose
  529. # [11:49] <annevk2> many different nicks which I suspect are the same person certainly are
  530. # [11:49] <annevk2> other than that, not so much
  531. # [11:50] * Joins: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  532. # [11:50] <DrEvil> ?
  533. # [11:50] <DrEvil> occi spec is example
  534. # [11:51] <DrEvil> there is other case like couchdb use etag and things like this
  535. # [11:51] <DrEvil> amazon web service also
  536. # [11:51] <DrEvil> annevk2: you not say how much time you were meaning
  537. # [11:52] <annevk2> a decade or so
  538. # [11:52] <DrEvil> oh wow - why do you think this?
  539. # [11:52] <DrEvil> it is not easy just ammend where window.location to include also window.response something
  540. # [11:53] <annevk2> no
  541. # [11:53] <DrEvil> :( what are the problems here
  542. # [11:54] <webben> DrEvil: That OCCI spec specifically mentions in-band link relationships in HTML, I don't see a requirement to keep them in HTTP only.
  543. # [11:54] <DrEvil> webben: that is fine but does not to say it is more useufl to be using the authorative information which is headers
  544. # [11:54] <DrEvil> it is leaky
  545. # [11:55] <DrEvil> please can I ask for some more information why it is this is not happening for decade
  546. # [11:55] <webben> DrEvil: Sorry "does not to say it is more useufl to be using the authorative information which is headers" ... where does it say that's the headers are more authorative?
  547. # [11:55] <DrEvil> well this is the spec is defined against this method
  548. # [11:56] <DrEvil> they are required so it is natural this is cae
  549. # [11:56] <DrEvil> case
  550. # [11:56] <annevk2> DrEvil, there's hardly any demand so I sort of doubt it will happen a decade from now to be honest
  551. # [11:56] <annevk2> DrEvil, there's more important things to work on and worry about
  552. # [11:56] <webben> DrEvil: Where does the spec say you must supply metadata out-of-band rather than in-bad?
  553. # [11:56] <webben> *in-band
  554. # [11:56] <DrEvil> it is for making tool consistent
  555. # [11:56] <DrEvil> this information must be consistent format for headers
  556. # [11:57] <webben> DrEvil: for example the spec says "The root (“/”) should expose collections in-band and/or out-of-band in order for clients to discover resources." note the "and/or"
  557. # [11:57] <DrEvil> that is data not metadata
  558. # [11:57] <DrEvil> no wonder
  559. # [11:57] <DrEvil> annevk2: how it is not important to do this I don't think
  560. # [11:57] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  561. # [11:58] <DrEvil> many seeing more use in this area would be easier making browsers more easy to be involved
  562. # [11:58] <DrEvil> it is not so hard to make this object available for scripts, no?
  563. # [11:58] <DrEvil> what is the difficulty for this?
  564. # [11:59] <annevk2> added complexity
  565. # [11:59] <DrEvil> it is complex to do this? really?
  566. # [11:59] <annevk2> yes, each feature adds complexity
  567. # [11:59] <webben> DrEvil: It seems like the approach you are suggesting is actually user-hostile since it encourages publishers to make the display of information the user is interested in dependent on scripts.
  568. # [11:59] * Quits: yutak_home (n=kee@R214157.ppp.dion.ne.jp) ("Ex-Chat")
  569. # [11:59] <DrEvil> yes that is obvious statement if I not to be rude
  570. # [11:59] <annevk2> and could potentially be some kind of attack vector, etc.
  571. # [11:59] <annevk2> yes it is
  572. # [12:00] <annevk2> so we need to evaluate which features to add based on their merit
  573. # [12:00] <annevk2> to only increase complexity so much
  574. # [12:00] <DrEvil> hmm that is sad it is maybe moving development idea faster if possible
  575. # [12:01] <DrEvil> thinking of news things to do
  576. # [12:01] <DrEvil> but cannot because browsers too slow to react
  577. # [12:01] <DrEvil> no?
  578. # [12:01] <annevk2> I've a hard time following your ramblings
  579. # [12:01] <DrEvil> better browser focus low level see as open platform
  580. # [12:01] <DrEvil> allow build on top
  581. # [12:01] <DrEvil> bottom up
  582. # [12:02] <DrEvil> not making complicated solution top down that is slow to react in fast pace world
  583. # [12:02] <annevk2> I suggest you start here: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Is_there_a_process_for_adding_new_features_to_a_specification.3F
  584. # [12:02] <DrEvil> that is bad for me for everyone
  585. # [12:02] <DrEvil> yes I am just talking with you
  586. # [12:02] <DrEvil> I can read processes but processes seem they are the problem no?
  587. # [12:03] <annevk2> no idea, but your ramblings won't get you anywhere
  588. # [12:03] <annevk2> that piece of process might
  589. # [12:03] <DrEvil> I see that browsers they have a bad time because there are many features - but I think approach is old and bad
  590. # [12:04] <DrEvil> need more open and start at the basics
  591. # [12:04] <DrEvil> provide a platform for build complexity
  592. # [12:04] <annevk2> sure sure, brave new world thinking is always fun
  593. # [12:04] <DrEvil> I think the world it is too rapid for your beuracracy
  594. # [12:04] <DrEvil> you are slowing progression I think
  595. # [12:04] <annevk2> but that ain't gonna fly if we want today's web to work as well
  596. # [12:05] <annevk2> so route around me
  597. # [12:05] <DrEvil> I think disruption sometimes it is necessary
  598. # [12:05] <DrEvil> maybe we fire you all and make new browsers
  599. # [12:05] <DrEvil> :D
  600. # [12:05] <annevk2> go for it
  601. # [12:05] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt)
  602. # [12:05] <DrEvil> it is a shame that is so difficult - maybe if we have operating systems more for the web
  603. # [12:05] <DrEvil> you will hopefully become less important
  604. # [12:05] <DrEvil> and the world will be better more advancing place faster
  605. # [12:06] <DrEvil> not waiting for you to decide all the time
  606. # [12:06] <DrEvil> why it is not just to make the very essentials easy accessible and programmable?
  607. # [12:06] <DrEvil> you say there is no demand but that may be more reflection of supply
  608. # [12:06] <DrEvil> and that is you.. no?
  609. # [12:07] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=wakaba_@122.221.184.68) ("Leaving...")
  610. # [12:07] <annevk2> what are you still wasting your time here for? go plot and scheme how to destroy the establishment!
  611. # [12:07] <Dashiva> Or just make a browser
  612. # [12:08] <DrEvil> I tihnk google are best direction
  613. # [12:08] <DrEvil> I not do a lot better than they are
  614. # [12:08] * Philip` wonders why annevk2 is being unusually hostile
  615. # [12:08] <DrEvil> he is homo
  616. # [12:08] <DrEvil> lady name
  617. # [12:09] <DrEvil> i joke this is not me I am friendly just like to talk about this to understand
  618. # [12:09] <Philip`> That's not a productive way to continue the conversation either :-p
  619. # [12:10] <DrEvil> I think interesting to see why not to implement the core functionality for web
  620. # [12:10] <DrEvil> like this and then build on top
  621. # [12:10] <annevk2> Philip`, getting tired of unstructured ramblings mostly
  622. # [12:10] <Dashiva> It seems to end up that way whenever HTTP is invoked
  623. # [12:11] <DrEvil> I see
  624. # [12:11] <DrEvil> HTTP it is the web mostly!
  625. # [12:11] <annevk2> DrEvil, the reason we have process is so that not every feature that is being proposed has to be done
  626. # [12:11] <ttepasse> Given that Last Call is dooming it's probably to late to repropose <line>, isn't it?
  627. # [12:11] <Dashiva> That misconception is probably a big part of it
  628. # [12:11] <annevk2> DrEvil, the process is there so that feature proposals get more structured and can be more easily evaluated against other proposals
  629. # [12:11] <DrEvil> Dashiva: that is not mis-thinking that is true
  630. # [12:11] <annevk2> DrEvil, it makes it clear what problems are being solved, what the use cases are, etc.
  631. # [12:12] <Dashiva> HTTP is just a transfer protocol, it's largely irrelevant
  632. # [12:12] <DrEvil> annevk2: that is nice politician talking
  633. # [12:12] <annevk2> DrEvil, now if you think that is not needed I'm afraid you won't get much further here
  634. # [12:12] <DrEvil> Dashiva: HTTP is irrelevant?! that is crazy man :)
  635. # [12:13] <DrEvil> annevk2: I think that is poor justification and protective approach for beauracracts
  636. # [12:13] <DrEvil> to be important and decide things
  637. # [12:13] <Dashiva> Sure, it's the one we happen to use
  638. # [12:13] <Dashiva> But there's nothing special about HTTP
  639. # [12:13] <DrEvil> I wonder why1
  640. # [12:13] <gavin> "http is irrelevant" and "http is irrelevant to whether I want peanut butter on my sandwich" are two very different statements
  641. # [12:13] <DrEvil> really?
  642. # [12:13] <gavin> I think dashiva's statement was a variant of the latter :)
  643. # [12:14] <DrEvil> if http is irrelevant
  644. # [12:14] <DrEvil> why it is you add PUT/DELETE?
  645. # [12:15] <DrEvil> I am saying something you all dead now?
  646. # [12:15] <Dashiva> That's the thing in a nutshell, isn't it
  647. # [12:15] * Joins: beowulf (n=beowulf@ps4552.dreamhost.com)
  648. # [12:15] <Dashiva> The web is adding PUT/DELETE
  649. # [12:15] <DrEvil> no http has had this for since 1.1
  650. # [12:15] <Dashiva> Yes, and nobody cared for a long time
  651. # [12:15] <DrEvil> this is something html has not had
  652. # [12:16] <DrEvil> Dashiva: I think people have cared for while but more since XHR it came to fix a little bit the shitness of HTML
  653. # [12:16] <DrEvil> but there is still many problems
  654. # [12:17] <DrEvil> html it is very having lots of shitness
  655. # [12:17] <Dashiva> Roy would be proud of you
  656. # [12:17] <DrEvil> you are angry people with nothing to say
  657. # [12:17] <DrEvil> you attack
  658. # [12:17] <DrEvil> that is all
  659. # [12:17] <DrEvil> do you listen?
  660. # [12:17] <DrEvil> no because you are the most important
  661. # [12:18] <DrEvil> I think browsers and html have such big responsibility but you do not have ability to fulfill this
  662. # [12:18] <Dashiva> Now that's just asking to be taken out of context :)
  663. # [12:18] <DrEvil> maybe because of process, people, both
  664. # [12:18] <DrEvil> but you are failing the world
  665. # [12:19] <DrEvil> there is missed opportunity because of your bad processes
  666. # [12:19] <DrEvil> fact.
  667. # [12:19] <Dashiva> Axiomatic proof
  668. # [12:19] <DrEvil> Dork comment
  669. # [12:20] <DrEvil> this is just too bad
  670. # [12:21] <DrEvil> you people do not deserve to be in control if you are not willing to acknowledge the scope of your responsibilities
  671. # [12:21] <Dashiva> Nobody is in control
  672. # [12:21] <Dashiva> You're free to go out and make a new web
  673. # [12:22] <DrEvil> you're an idiot if you think that statement has merit
  674. # [12:22] <DrEvil> I don't think you do.
  675. # [12:23] <Dashiva> Oh, but it does
  676. # [12:23] <Dashiva> Becausae HTTP is most important, right?
  677. # [12:23] <Dashiva> You can just add some minor stuff on top of it and you're done
  678. # [12:23] <DrEvil> no HTTP is just a foundation
  679. # [12:23] <DrEvil> that is unavoidable fact
  680. # [12:23] <DrEvil> the same as TCP is important
  681. # [12:23] <DrEvil> unavaoidable
  682. # [12:23] <DrEvil> I do not see why it is you contest this
  683. # [12:24] <DrEvil> you have HTTP notions in your spec
  684. # [12:24] <DrEvil> (apart from your pathetic conception of resources)
  685. # [12:24] <DrEvil> oh look..
  686. # [12:24] <DrEvil> make anothe rstupid comment to avoid the point
  687. # [12:24] <DrEvil> pathetic.
  688. # [12:25] <DrEvil> like it or not, HTTP is a brilliant piece of engineering and is the reason the web works
  689. # [12:25] <Dashiva> Do you have a point?
  690. # [12:25] <DrEvil> HTTP/URI's lead to hypermedia formats
  691. # [12:25] <DrEvil> html happens to be the one that took off
  692. # [12:26] <DrEvil> it's shit.
  693. # [12:26] <DrEvil> and there's virtually nothing in it that's of massive complexity or importance
  694. # [12:26] <DrEvil> all the clever stuff is in the protocols
  695. # [12:26] <DrEvil> boo hoo
  696. # [12:26] <Dashiva> The importance is in the _content_
  697. # [12:27] <DrEvil> you can get sand in your vadge over that if you want
  698. # [12:27] <DrEvil> I don't care
  699. # [12:27] <DrEvil> no actually it's
  700. # [12:27] <DrEvil> *information*
  701. # [12:27] <DrEvil> and
  702. # [12:27] <Dashiva> No, it's the content. Really.
  703. # [12:27] <DrEvil> *relationships*
  704. # [12:27] <DrEvil> No. Really. Socrates. It's not.
  705. # [12:27] <Dashiva> You may have some kind of distorted HTTP view of reality
  706. # [12:27] <DrEvil> you can live in your robotic dork world
  707. # [12:27] <Dashiva> But the people use the web for content
  708. # [12:27] <DrEvil> where that is your reality
  709. # [12:27] <DrEvil> but it's bullshit, and you're in idiot.
  710. # [12:28] <DrEvil> people use the web
  711. # [12:28] <DrEvil> they dont use html
  712. # [12:28] <DrEvil> the web is related information
  713. # [12:28] <DrEvil> it's not "lots of amazing wonderful html document"
  714. # [12:28] <DrEvil> nobody gives a shit.
  715. # [12:28] <DrEvil> XML/JSON/RIAs
  716. # [12:28] <DrEvil> Ajax
  717. # [12:28] <beowulf> is DrEvil a bot?
  718. # [12:29] <hsivonen> beowulf: DrEvil is mookid
  719. # [12:29] <DrEvil> I did a really good job of pretending to be foreign though
  720. # [12:29] <DrEvil> give me cretdit
  721. # [12:29] <Dashiva> No, not really
  722. # [12:29] <zcorpan_> Hixie: where's the data about <meta content-language>?
  723. # [12:29] <DrEvil> I'm not actually mookid btw
  724. # [12:29] <Dashiva> You have content-type:troll/mookid written all over you
  725. # [12:29] <beowulf> DrEvil: foreign?
  726. # [12:30] <DrEvil> yes it is correct I am make you think that
  727. # [12:30] <beowulf> DrEvil: foreign to where?
  728. # [12:30] <beowulf> or whom?
  729. # [12:30] <DrEvil> yeah whatever foreign to where I am actually located
  730. # [12:30] * Joins: ment (i=thement@ibawizard.net)
  731. # [12:31] <DrEvil> smarty pants.
  732. # [12:31] <beowulf> i still think it's a bot
  733. # [12:31] <DrEvil> if it is the singularity just happened
  734. # [12:31] <DrEvil> because I am on FIRE right now
  735. # [12:31] <ment> hi, anybody fluently speaking html5?
  736. # [12:31] <DrEvil> yep <bag of shit />
  737. # [12:31] <ment> i think i don't understand how <LI> open tag algorithm works, (9.2.5.10 The "in body" insertion mode).
  738. # [12:32] <Dashiva> What part of it is unclear?
  739. # [12:32] <ment> becouse it seems the algorithm does nothing
  740. # [12:32] * Quits: vs-hs_ (n=vs-hs@91.90.24.186) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  741. # [12:32] * Joins: vs-hs (n=vs-hs@91.90.24.186)
  742. # [12:32] <jgraham> ment: What are you expecting it to do?
  743. # [12:33] <ment> it skips formatting and phrasing elements to produce "node" variable and then it does nothing with it
  744. # [12:33] <Dashiva> It uses it to close previous <li> elements
  745. # [12:33] <Dashiva> Step 3
  746. # [12:35] <DrEvil> well I hope you're going to apologise for how you've treated me this morning
  747. # [12:35] <DrEvil> I feel very upset
  748. # [12:35] <DrEvil> how dare you accuse me of caring about the application protocol web developers work with
  749. # [12:36] <DrEvil> and then daring to relate that to html
  750. # [12:36] <ment> Dashiva: 3) close LI if on top 4) if (node->tag not in Formatting or Phrasing) goto 6; 5) node = previous node on stack; goto 4; 6) this is the last step 7) insert_li_on_top()
  751. # [12:36] <Dashiva> No, goto 3
  752. # [12:36] <DrEvil> goodbye cruel world!
  753. # [12:36] <Dashiva> Where node is reused
  754. # [12:37] <ment> Dashiva: 5. Otherwise, set node to the previous entry in the stack of open elements and return to the step labeled loop.
  755. # [12:37] <annevk2> ment, the node is inserted in step 6
  756. # [12:37] <Dashiva> ment: And the labeled step is #3
  757. # [12:37] <annevk2> ment, the node variable is just a temporary thing to check various conditions
  758. # [12:37] <ment> Dashiva: no, as #3
  759. # [12:37] <ment> hrmz, maybe i have just the wrong version
  760. # [12:38] <Dashiva> Which page are you using?
  761. # [12:38] * annevk2 is looking at http://html5.org/spec
  762. # [12:38] <Dashiva> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#parsing-main-inbody
  763. # [12:38] <ment> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/syntax.html#parsing-main-inbody
  764. # [12:38] <Dashiva> Ah, that one is outdated
  765. # [12:38] <Dashiva> Very much so
  766. # [12:38] <annevk2> but not for this algo it seems
  767. # [12:39] <zcorpan_> TR/ should be called outdated/
  768. # [12:39] <Dashiva> ment: In that version, your issue is indeed present
  769. # [12:40] <Dashiva> But it seems to have been fixed since then
  770. # [12:40] <ment> are there any changelogs for the whatwg specs to see what is different?
  771. # [12:40] <gsnedders|work> ment: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
  772. # [12:40] <Dashiva> Yes, but there's a ton to read :)
  773. # [12:40] <annevk2> Dashiva, what is different?
  774. # [12:41] <Dashiva> annevk: The loop label has moved from step 4 to step 3
  775. # [12:41] <ment> gsnedders|work: thanks
  776. # [12:41] <annevk2> aaah
  777. # [12:42] <ment> however, any _big_ changes in html5 parser? (for example something like, we abandoned adoption agency algorithm, we are using something completely different and three times as complicated instead)
  778. # [12:42] <DrEvil> couldn't you just stop talking crap in here and go implement my window.response object ?
  779. # [12:42] <DrEvil> that would be far more productive
  780. # [12:43] <DrEvil> please, I forgot to say please
  781. # [12:43] <gsnedders|work> ment: Depends how "big" is big :)
  782. # [12:43] <Dashiva> ment: There's been some back-and-forth about escaped text in <script> and related elements
  783. # [12:43] <gsnedders|work> ment: I guess all the new script stuff, the removal of insertion modes, is big
  784. # [12:44] <Dashiva> Table taint is gone, I think?
  785. # [12:44] <gsnedders|work> s/insertion modes/content model flags/
  786. # [12:45] <gsnedders|work> Yeahj
  787. # [12:45] <ment> aw, i like content model flags :/
  788. # [12:45] <gsnedders|work> resetting the insertion mode has changed
  789. # [12:45] <Dashiva> I think the changes have been in the direction of less complexity
  790. # [12:45] <Dashiva> Not more
  791. # [12:46] <gsnedders|work> Yeah, it is also more similar to how you wanted to have it for perf reasons before
  792. # [12:47] <gsnedders|work> ment: you implementing the parser?
  793. # [12:47] <ment> well if you want less complexity, the tokenizer could be shortened by few pages by replacing the unrolled state automaton with regexps and lookback buffer :)
  794. # [12:47] <ment> gsnedders|work: i've almost implemented tokenizer and parser
  795. # [12:48] <gsnedders|work> ment: in what language?
  796. # [12:48] <ment> gsnedders|work: C
  797. # [12:48] <hsivonen> ment: the [R]CDATA changes might count as 'big'
  798. # [12:48] <gsnedders|work> ment: That's more complex if you want to implement it without regexp :)
  799. # [12:48] <jgraham> Indeed more complexity != longer description
  800. # [12:49] * jgraham wonders why his copy of spotify is behaving so badly today
  801. # [12:49] <gsnedders|work> Mine is behaving fine, FWIW
  802. # [12:49] <DrEvil> http://clouddevelopertips.blogspot.com/2009/10/what-language-does-cloud-speak-now-and.html
  803. # [12:49] <gsnedders|work> (And I guess that's slightly more useful than some random person saying that)
  804. # [12:49] * Parts: Midler (n=midler@95.209.13.168.bredband.tre.se) ("Leaving.")
  805. # [12:49] * Quits: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@dslb-084-060-053-084.pools.arcor-ip.net) ("?Q")
  806. # [12:50] <jgraham> Yeah I guess it's not network problems
  807. # [12:50] <jgraham> then
  808. # [12:50] <gsnedders|work> Or maybe I'm using the entire bandwidth of the office :P
  809. # [12:50] <ment> gsnedders|work: but this description is more complicated to implement, because i have to put the regexps together from state machine (not an pleasant thing to do) and then unroll it again into my representation
  810. # [12:51] <Dashiva> Maybe there can be some informative un-unrolled state examples made when the spec is finalized
  811. # [12:51] <jgraham> ment: If you are making an implementation that is significantly different from the spec it is always more complex to be sure you are right
  812. # [12:51] <gsnedders|work> ment: FWIW, all the implementations thus far wouldn't have gained by having it in regex
  813. # [12:51] <Dashiva> But I believe the unrolled state is better for review
  814. # [12:52] <gsnedders|work> ment: Why do you need to go from spec -> regex -> your repr? Why the middle-step?
  815. # [12:52] <ment> gsnedders|work: http://ibawizard.net/~thement/com.txt
  816. # [12:53] * jgraham wonders if that is supposed to be an answer
  817. # [12:53] <ment> gsnedders|work: then i can after <!-- just fill buffer and every time i see '>' i would run this regexp
  818. # [12:53] * gsnedders|work wonders if doing it in a regexp way is very performant
  819. # [12:54] <ment> gsnedders|work: of course unrolled into five-line c code
  820. # [12:54] <gsnedders|work> ment: Most of the impls do similar quick grabbing from the input stream, and regex wouldn't have helped
  821. # [12:55] <gsnedders|work> (AFAIK the longest look-behind any have is one character_
  822. # [12:55] <gsnedders|work> (And the validator/Gecko one has no look-behind or look-ahead)
  823. # [12:56] <jgraham> If anyone sees rubys, can they remind me to talk to him about html5lib-commits?
  824. # [12:57] <ment> gsnedders|work: i need to store the comment in dom tree anyway. but if i wanted DFA, i could just unroll my own from those regexs and it would be much less error prone
  825. # [12:57] <gsnedders|work> DFA?
  826. # [12:57] <ment> deterministic automaton
  827. # [12:58] <gsnedders|work> Ah. I think the basic state is that using regex in places would benefit some and hurt others
  828. # [12:59] <hsivonen> ment: do you mean writing regexps and turning those into automata would be less error prone than hand-implementing the specced state machine?
  829. # [12:59] * jgraham can't see why regexps should ever be faster assuming a sufficiently low-level implementation
  830. # [12:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: indeed
  831. # [13:00] <hsivonen> besides, most "regexp" implementations out there are worse than DFA perf-wise
  832. # [13:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think the paper that claimed that really only applied to a special case
  833. # [13:01] <hsivonen> jgraham: I mean that the regexps you get from Perl, Java, Python, JS, etc. aren't DFA
  834. # [13:01] <jgraham> At least I recall a forum discussion with a (perl?) person suggesting that the paper focused on a type of regexp which is uncommon and is very bad in real implementations
  835. # [13:01] <jgraham> but ignored the fact that real (non-DFA) implementations are faster for commoner cases
  836. # [13:02] <jgraham> (maybe not faster in terms of algorithmic complexity but actually faster to run)
  837. # [13:02] <jgraham> (but I don't recall the details so I might be wrong)
  838. # [13:02] * hsivonen doubts they are faster but they do enable things like capturing parentheses
  839. # [13:03] * gsnedders|work thinks you should try slower languages like PHP
  840. # [13:03] <gsnedders|work> but there again, PCRE is fairly easy to segfault, which is suboptimal
  841. # [13:03] * jgraham might be mistaken about the whole thing
  842. # [13:03] <ment> http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html
  843. # [13:03] * Joins: aaronwitherow (n=aaronwit@123.243.116.145)
  844. # [13:04] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  845. # [13:05] <ment> hsivonen: html5 tokenizer is in non-machine readable format, so i have either step-by-step implement it or decompile it into high-level representation (states and regexes) and then compile it into tokenizer
  846. # [13:06] <ment> hsivonen: and the latter is much easier given that in the former i have to explicitly check if some state hasn't "now dance monkey dance" action (and i'm only human)
  847. # [13:08] <hsivonen> having implemented it by hand, I doubt that you could get the buffering just right efficiently by using a generic compilation tool
  848. # [13:08] <hsivonen> I use Java as the abstraction from which I generate C++
  849. # [13:09] <ment> hsivonen: specification in regexes -> NFA -> DFA, then some state minimization and i've got the _exact_ same tokenizer
  850. # [13:09] <ment> hsivonen: and i have a guarantee my tokenizer doesn't end in endless loop due to missing state in html5 specs
  851. # [13:10] <jcranmer> and you rely on the correctness of three other internal generation schemes
  852. # [13:10] * Quits: Creap_ (n=Creap@193.11.202.139) (Remote closed the connection)
  853. # [13:12] <hsivonen> ment: but the state machine isn't enough. it also needs to store e.g. element names as it traverses over them
  854. # [13:12] * Joins: Creap (n=Creap@vemod.brg.sgsnet.se)
  855. # [13:13] <jcranmer> you can do semantic action processing on state transitions
  856. # [13:13] <jcranmer> although that's not amenable to minimization
  857. # [13:15] <jgraham> hsivonen: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=597364
  858. # [13:16] <ment> jcranmer: not to underestimate you, but those three algorithms has been proven to produce correct result and it's implementation takes few KB instead of half-meg of specs
  859. # [13:16] * Quits: aaronwitherow (n=aaronwit@123.243.116.145)
  860. # [13:17] <jcranmer> I'm reminded of that Knuth quote
  861. # [13:17] <jcranmer> Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
  862. # [13:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, the Unicode concern is a bit on the side of the less common case. For every DFA operating on Unicode characters, there's an equivalent DFA (potentially with more states) operating on UTF-8
  863. # [13:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: and the most common regexps out there probably match on ASCII code points anyway
  864. # [13:20] <hsivonen> I can appreciate the utility of backreferences, etc., though
  865. # [13:20] * gsnedders|work doesn't see why you can't just compile [^a] to $char != 'a' instead of $char == 'b' || $char == 'c' etc.
  866. # [13:20] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  867. # [13:20] <jcranmer> well, backrefs easily make languages context-sensitive
  868. # [13:21] * Quits: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@12.182.97.2) ("Leaving...")
  869. # [13:21] <jcranmer> (.*)\1 is neither regular nor context-free
  870. # [13:21] <hsivonen> jcranmer: sure. Perl "regular expressions" aren't regular
  871. # [13:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: His claim that the real world performance of perl-like implementations will likely be better seems at least plausible
  872. # [13:22] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes, it is plausible. and probably also depends on when expression compilation happens and how often
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  874. # [13:23] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@5355732C.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  875. # [13:23] <Philip`> ment: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/svn/tokeniser/tokeniser_spec.ml <-- there's a machine-readable version of the tokeniser :-)
  876. # [13:23] <jgraham> Of course. In any case the general idea that it is dangerous to extrapolate from a single pathological case to general ideas about goodness seems sound
  877. # [13:23] <jgraham> Philip`: s/machine-readable/out-of-date/
  878. # [13:24] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: r2548? wow.
  879. # [13:24] <ment> Philip`: cute :)
  880. # [13:26] <Philip`> ment: and it can be converted to graphs like http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/tokeniser_states.png and code like http://philip.html5.org/tools/parser/tokeniser_auto.js etc
  881. # [13:26] <Philip`> It is indeed horrendously out of date :-(
  882. # [13:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, at least with DFAs the failure mode is running out of heap during pattern compilation instead of running out of stack space during matching. :-)
  883. # [13:28] <Philip`> So with DFAs your program will fail to execute at all, whereas with NFAs it'll work fine with normal inputs
  884. # [13:29] <ment> that's another thing, the <!doctype>. why not just grab <!([^>]+)> and then parse it in sub-grammar instead of pluging it directly in the main tokenizer?
  885. # [13:29] <hsivonen> ment: to touch the memory fewer times
  886. # [13:29] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  887. # [13:30] <hsivonen> ment: anyway, the spec allows you to implement any algorithmic transformation you see fit as long as it doesn't change the black-box behavior
  888. # [13:30] <Philip`> Is it possible to statically determine whether a Perl-style regexp will run in non-exponential time/space on any input?
  889. # [13:32] <jgraham> Philip`: Doesn't perl allow you to run arbitary functions as part of the process? I would guess in those cases the answer is no...
  890. # [13:32] <ment> hsivonen: you don't event know how ridiculous that argument sounds in HTML5 context
  891. # [13:33] * Philip` would like to be able to detect bugs like the one that made the html5lib sanitiser exponentially slow
  892. # [13:33] <Philip`> jgraham: That's true, so I was thinking more of other cases :-)
  893. # [13:33] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: I guess if you ignore the e flag
  894. # [13:34] <hsivonen> ment: what's ridiculous?
  895. # [13:34] * hsivonen has implemented some things differently from the spec concept but with the same behavior
  896. # [13:34] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: In Perl regexps? That's only relevant for substitutions, not pattern matching
  897. # [13:34] <ment> hsivonen: "to touch the memory" wtf?
  898. # [13:35] <ment> hsivonen: you are running javascript-sqllite-svg virtual machine and now you are going to count cycles?
  899. # [13:35] <hsivonen> ment: in infrastructure of the beast, sure
  900. # [13:36] <ment> hsivonen: moreover, the while(c != '>') add_char(); parse_doctype(); would be still faster given that the doctype string is reasonably small (few KBs tops)
  901. # [13:37] <hsivonen> ment: you are permitted to implement it that way
  902. # [13:38] <Philip`> hsivonen: Your earlier statements seem to be contradictory - if you can implement any black-box-equivalent behaviour, the spec could easily say to grab the whole string and then parse it as a later step, and it wouldn't affect the memory use patterns of implementations
  903. # [13:38] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  904. # [13:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: yeah, the real reason why the doctype stuff is in the same state machine is more likely that the idea that > needs to break out even within quotes came relative late in the speccing cycle
  905. # [13:40] <Philip`> ment: Why would that be faster? (I'd have thought that parse_doctype would have to do the same amount of work that an exploded tokeniser would do, and you're also doing an extra loop over the characters)
  906. # [13:42] <ment> Philip`: you don't have to jump back-and-forth in the whole state machine and it breaks down to while (c == ...) grab(); while (c != ...) skip(); so jump prediction would work as expected (given that it fits in L1 so no "touching memory" occurs)
  907. # [13:43] <ment> Philip`: but cycle counting is still ridiculous in this context
  908. # [13:43] <hsivonen> ment: if all the state transitions are compiled down to gotos, surely code locality-based caching should do the right thing when you are jumping among the doctype-related states?
  909. # [13:44] * hsivonen intends to make that stuff use gotos instead of switch eventually
  910. # [13:45] * gsnedders|work could see what effect using goto instead of switch in PHP 5.3 has… I doubt much
  911. # [13:45] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: PHP has goto?
  912. # [13:45] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: Since 5.3
  913. # [13:45] <hsivonen> yay
  914. # [13:46] * hsivonen wishes Java had goto
  915. # [13:46] <gsnedders|work> And the manual page for goto has http://xkcd.com/292/ on it
  916. # [13:46] <ment> hsivonen: the doctype parser states are jump-forward only (given that in one state you can have small loop on != or ==), so yes
  917. # [13:47] <gsnedders|work> (The original PHP tokenizer used methods, but the function call overhead made that stupidly slow0
  918. # [13:47] <ment> hsivonen: replacing switch with goto? the compiler reorders your code anyway. have you even tried to profile it?
  919. # [13:47] <gsnedders|work> ment: You still have to go through all the options in the switch each time
  920. # [13:48] <hsivonen> ment: I haven't profiled switch vs. goto
  921. # [13:48] <hsivonen> ment: I don't see why goto would be slower than switch, though. dunno if it's going to be a win.
  922. # [13:48] <ment> gsnedders|work: have you ever heard of things like jump tables? or binary trees?
  923. # [13:49] <gsnedders|work> ment: Yes, but I would still expect goto to be quicker
  924. # [13:49] <gsnedders|work> (Though perhaps the difference is almost irrelevantly small)
  925. # [13:49] * Joins: mitnavn (n=mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn)
  926. # [13:52] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@5355732C.cable.casema.nl) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  927. # [13:53] <ment> gsnedders|work: for(;;) switch (state) { case STATE_A: ...; state = STATE_B; break; case STATE_B: ...; } would have the break compiled as goto anyway
  928. # [13:53] * Joins: TabAtkins (n=chatzill@70-139-15-246.lightspeed.rsbgtx.sbcglobal.net)
  929. # [13:54] <hsivonen> ment: goto to STATE_B? which compiler?
  930. # [13:55] <ment> hsivonen: gcc
  931. # [13:55] <hsivonen> ment: cool.
  932. # [13:55] * gsnedders|work doesn't remember seeing that before
  933. # [13:55] <Philip`> I guess you have to be careful not to do anything (like read the next character) outside the switch for that to work
  934. # [13:55] * hsivonen should disassemble gcc output some time
  935. # [13:55] <Philip`> but that doesn't seem too hard
  936. # [13:58] <ment> you could define a macro and use it instead of break: #define NEXT(st) state = st; c = getc(); break
  937. # [14:01] <ment> or better #define NEXT(st) c=getc(); state = st; break
  938. # [14:01] * hsivonen has trouble seeing how hiding break; inside a macro is any more righteous than goto.
  939. # [14:02] <jcranmer> it isn't, IMHO
  940. # [14:05] * Joins: svl (n=me@f050240105.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  941. # [14:07] <zcorpan_> does audio/ogg; codecs=1 mean Ogg container with PCM audio?
  942. # [14:09] <ment> btw, what does "fragment case" exactly mean?
  943. # [14:09] <hsivonen> ment: innerHTML
  944. # [14:09] <ment> ah, this thing. thanks
  945. # [14:10] <gsnedders|work> (It also applies to some things like HTML fragments in Atom)
  946. # [14:11] <hsivonen> and createContextualFragment
  947. # [14:11] <gsnedders|work> And numerous other beautiful parts of the web arch
  948. # [14:12] * hsivonen wonders if there's any sane way to report line numbers in document.written content
  949. # [14:13] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@83.85.115.44)
  950. # [14:13] <hsivonen> hmm. is it Oct 30th yet? http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/app-backplane/XGR-app-backplane-20091030/
  951. # [14:14] <Dashiva> Is it LC yet?
  952. # [14:14] <annevk2> hsivonen, might be the pubdate
  953. # [14:14] <annevk2> sometimes editor's drafts are a bit ahead of time
  954. # [14:14] <hsivonen> annevk2: ah. right. it's not under TR
  955. # [14:15] * hsivonen wonders what "X" in "XG" means except that X is always cool
  956. # [14:16] <zcorpan_> extensible group?
  957. # [14:16] <ment> btw is there any list of html5 elements together with their flags (like IS_SCOPING, IS_FORMATTING, etc.)?
  958. # [14:17] <Dashiva> The X means 'incubator'
  959. # [14:17] <hsivonen> ment: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/file/57e42052ea96/parser/html/nsHtml5ElementName.cpp
  960. # [14:18] <gsnedders|work> ment: Look in the stack of opoen elmenets]
  961. # [14:18] <gsnedders|work> (just spelt correctly)
  962. # [14:19] <Dashiva> Maybe IG was taken by interest group, so they decided to pick another letter
  963. # [14:19] <ment> gsnedders|work: phrasing category seems to be defined negatively
  964. # [14:20] <gsnedders|work> ment: Well, it's impossible to define it otherwise
  965. # [14:21] <gsnedders|work> ment: As it has to cover an infinite number of elements
  966. # [14:21] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@83.85.115.44) ("Leaving")
  967. # [14:21] <ment> gsnedders|work: what do you mean? i thought that the set of html5 elements (not in foreign content) is finite
  968. # [14:22] <gsnedders|work> ment: <acompletelyfakeelement> is a phrasing element for the parser
  969. # [14:22] <gsnedders|work> ment: There's an infinite number of HTML elements that are non-conforming
  970. # [14:23] <ment> gsnedders|work: oh, so in html5 i could create new elements on the fly?
  971. # [14:23] * Quits: deadowl (n=deadowl_@ip029207.uvm.edu) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  972. # [14:23] <gsnedders|work> ment: No, it's non-conforming, but the parser defines how to parse any byte-stream
  973. # [14:24] <ment> gsnedders|work: i see your point. but that's quite a good idea!
  974. # [14:24] * Joins: workmad3 (n=davidwor@yama.cs.man.ac.uk)
  975. # [14:24] <gsnedders|work> ment: Everyone making up their own elements a good idea?
  976. # [14:25] <gsnedders|work> ment: Shouldn't they go to standards organizations to specify them?
  977. # [14:26] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Not if they put colons in the names
  978. # [14:27] <ment> gsnedders|work: if they don't have any special meaning, why not?
  979. # [14:27] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: Oh yeah, right
  980. # [14:27] <gsnedders|work> ment: What do you gain by having your own elements?
  981. # [14:27] <Philip`> ment: We might want to give them special meaning in the future
  982. # [14:29] <zcorpan_> Philip`: we can solve that with namespaces!
  983. # [14:29] <zcorpan_> or versioning
  984. # [14:29] <ment> gsnedders|work: for example, i could build a new languages on html5
  985. # [14:29] <jgraham> ment: What's wrong with class?
  986. # [14:29] <gsnedders|work> ment: Why?
  987. # [14:29] <zcorpan_> or both
  988. # [14:29] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Versioned namespaces?
  989. # [14:30] <ment> Philip`: for example, reserve all element names with name shorter than 6 characters
  990. # [14:30] <hsivonen> it's interesting how namespace proponents ignore the situation we had with the XHTML2 WG and the HTML WG using the same namespace
  991. # [14:30] <Philip`> jgraham: Namespaced versions
  992. # [14:30] <hsivonen> and that issue had a social solution--not a technical solution
  993. # [14:30] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: of namespaces?
  994. # [14:30] <TabAtkins> ment: unknown elements have *no* semantics. They're <div>s to any user agent, which means they're horrible for accessibility.
  995. # [14:31] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: it's safer to talk about <span>s to avoid giving any wrong ideas about behavior
  996. # [14:31] <ment> jgraham: i don't know. i just plugged my own tags and attributes in the parser.
  997. # [14:31] <TabAtkins> As well, as noted, it pollutes the language with private extensions that may not be well-thought out, and may prevent us from using appropriate names in the future.
  998. # [14:31] <jgraham> Philip`: Nah, we should have syntax like using:xmlns="http://some/long/uri/version/2" so that we can change the namespace processing of documents in the future
  999. # [14:31] <ment> TabAtkins: because ajax web site is so much more accessible for blind user
  1000. # [14:31] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: True, and actually they act more like a <span> anyway.
  1001. # [14:31] <gsnedders|work> ment: Unless they're standardized, they bring no advantage to anyone over data-* attributes for example
  1002. # [14:31] * Parts: darobin (n=robin@78.229.133.72)
  1003. # [14:31] <gsnedders|work> ment: It is entirely possible for them to be accessible
  1004. # [14:31] <jgraham> ment: (I should note that there is a certain amount of sarcasm going around)
  1005. # [14:32] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: Or maybe a URI as the namespace in curly brackets with an ISO 8601:2004 date following it?
  1006. # [14:32] <TabAtkins> Also, we really shouldn't be going out of our way to make sites less accessible. Rather the opposite, if possible.
  1007. # [14:32] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-mksmycdlfucvyjwk)
  1008. # [14:33] <DrEvil> what about i-hate-blind-people.com ?
  1009. # [14:33] <jgraham> ment: I still don't understand why you want private extensions beyond what is already possible
  1010. # [14:33] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  1011. # [14:33] <jgraham> I see why browser vendoes might but as noted on the mailing list, inventing elements doesn't work in that case (even with namespaces)
  1012. # [14:34] <ment> jgraham: i just think it's nice thing to have parser and tokenizer capable of working with non-standardized tags just like any other <div> (for example for future extensions)
  1013. # [14:34] * Quits: nattokirai (n=nattokir@201.103.142.229) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  1014. # [14:34] <ment> jgraham: or any other purpose
  1015. # [14:34] <jgraham> ment: They can. It's just that you shouldn't create extensions using element names except as part of the HTML standard
  1016. # [14:35] <TabAtkins> Indeed, the parser definitely needs to be *able* to handle unknown elements, exactly for extending the language - we don't want a repeat of FF2 or IE6/7's unknown tag handling.
  1017. # [14:35] <gsnedders|work> But IE6 is awesome.
  1018. # [14:35] <TabAtkins> But extending the language element-wise is *not* something we want to enable for everyone, precisely because it's a *bad* extensibility mechanism.
  1019. # [14:35] <TabAtkins> gsnedders|work: You're right, I should apologize.
  1020. # [14:36] <TabAtkins> IE6 leaves me in awe, I just won't say of what.
  1021. # [14:36] <gsnedders|work> The smell of it reminds of when I went to antique stores as a kid.
  1022. # [14:36] * Parts: gsnedders|work (n=gsnedder@pat.se.opera.com) ("Oh noes, somebody set us up the bomb.")
  1023. # [14:36] * Joins: gsnedders|work (n=gsnedder@pat.se.opera.com)
  1024. # [14:37] <TabAtkins> Heh, I like your quit message.
  1025. # [14:37] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  1026. # [14:37] * gsnedders|work wonders what it is
  1027. # [14:37] <gsnedders|work> Oh, that
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  1031. # [14:49] <Philip`> Floating-point is irritating
  1032. # [14:49] <Philip`> I think what's currently in the spec is still slightly impossible to implement correctly
  1033. # [14:51] <Philip`> because of numbers like 1.000000000000000111022302462516
  1034. # [14:51] <Philip`> which could be indefinitely long
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  1036. # [14:54] * Joins: deadowl (n=deadowl_@132.198.220.138)
  1037. # [14:56] <Philip`> Oh, hmm, Firefox doesn't implement what ECMAScript seemingly requires
  1038. # [14:56] <Philip`> (for parsing floats in JS)
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  1042. # [15:04] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/293
  1043. # [15:05] * ment desperately needs modern text browser
  1044. # [15:05] <Philip`> Firefox, Safari and Opera on Windows give one output
  1045. # [15:05] <Philip`> IE on Windows gives a second output
  1046. # [15:05] <Philip`> Opera on Linux gives a third
  1047. # [15:07] <Philip`> (Firefox on Linux gives the first output)
  1048. # [15:07] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p2102-ipbf6805marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  1049. # [15:07] <Philip`> I suppose it's alright to expect the first output, then
  1050. # [15:08] <Philip`> which I think is what the HTML5 text expects
  1051. # [15:08] <Philip`> so that's okay
  1052. # [15:09] <zcorpan_> on mac my browsers give 2.220446049250313e-16 for the first four and 0 for the last two
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  1055. # [15:14] <Philip`> zcorpan_: That matches the first outputs I got
  1056. # [15:14] <Philip`> so it's just IE and Opera-on-Linux that differ
  1057. # [15:17] <Philip`> I think only IE matches what ECMAScript requires
  1058. # [15:17] <Philip`> (It returns one 2.2etc and then all 0s)
  1059. # [15:19] <Philip`> Hmm, I think Opera matches what ES requires too
  1060. # [15:19] <Philip`> on Linux
  1061. # [15:19] <Philip`> (though it's a different output to IE)
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  1063. # [15:24] <DrEvil> if I used a data URI to embed a jpeg or pdf file in my page
  1064. # [15:24] <DrEvil> can a user still get the normal save as/download dialogue?
  1065. # [15:26] * Joins: nattokirai (n=nattokir@201.103.142.229)
  1066. # [15:26] <Philip`> DrEvil: It should act the same as any normal JPEG or PDF that doesn't use funny HTTP headers
  1067. # [15:27] <Philip`> (i.e. you can't use content-disposition to force a dialog box)
  1068. # [15:29] <zcorpan_> but you can use data:application/octet-stream;base64,... which will probably bring up the save as dialog
  1069. # [15:29] <DrEvil> oooh snazzy
  1070. # [15:29] <DrEvil> so we can actually have any XHR'd data presented for download to users
  1071. # [15:29] <DrEvil> that would immense.
  1072. # [15:29] <DrEvil> be^
  1073. # [15:32] <Philip`> Oh, I think I was interpreting ES as being stricter than it is
  1074. # [15:32] <Philip`> and actually all browsers are acceptable given its requirements
  1075. # [15:33] <zcorpan_> Philip`: are there other outputs that are acceptable too?
  1076. # [15:33] <Philip`> zcorpan_: ES says to truncate after 20 significant digits, and then optionally add 1 to the 20th digit
  1077. # [15:34] <Philip`> and it doesn't say you have to choose the same option all the time
  1078. # [15:34] <Philip`> so it's acceptable to examine an unlimited number of digits before deciding whether to move the 20th digit up or not
  1079. # [15:34] <Philip`> (which is what most implementations do)
  1080. # [15:36] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12)
  1081. # [15:38] <Philip`> (IE ignores digits after the 20th, Opera on Linux ignores digits after the 21st, if I'm not mistaken)
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  1084. # [15:41] <zcorpan_> has anyone written tests for the new script parsing?
  1085. # [15:45] <gsnedders|work> I'd quite like them for html5lib soon, FWIW
  1086. # [15:46] <TabAtkins> Seriously, why are we talking about @longdesc? The discussion was over a long time ago - of the tiny fraction of pages that use it, almost all of them use it incorrectly, and screenreaders tend to ignore the attribute because of this.
  1087. # [15:47] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-67-164-14-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  1088. # [15:47] <Philip`> TabAtkins: We're talking about it because someone submitted a change proposal, and if nobody submits a counter-proposal then it will get accepted by default
  1089. # [15:48] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Ok. Then let's just make the counterproposal and stop talking about it. It's just spam.
  1090. # [15:48] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Indeed
  1091. # [15:50] <Philip`> Seems like the counter-proposal needs to be a summary of all the arguments against longdesc from the past many years
  1092. # [15:50] <Philip`> though I suppose it should be called "rationale" rather than "arguments"
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  1095. # [15:52] <zcorpan_> gsnedders|work: have you started writing tests?
  1096. # [15:52] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan_: No
  1097. # [15:52] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan_: If nobody else has by the time I finish implementing it, I will
  1098. # [15:52] <zcorpan_> can we run html5lib tests in opera these days?
  1099. # [15:53] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan_: We already do
  1100. # [15:53] <zcorpan_> ok so where should i get cracking?
  1101. # [15:53] * gsnedders|work can't remember where he has them though
  1102. # [15:54] <gsnedders|work> Somewhere on gsnedders.html5.org
  1103. # [15:54] <TabAtkins> Well, since I picked up the project to document why features exist, and haven't done anything about it yet, I suppose I could do so. Documenting why features *don't* exist is about as useful in some cases.
  1104. # [15:56] <gsnedders|work> I guess we need to do something about contentModelFlags.test and escapeFlag.test now
  1105. # [15:56] <gsnedders|work> And probably need to add some way to start the tokenizer in a specific state
  1106. # [15:56] <gsnedders|work> (As otherwise the tokenizer tests could never test the script data states)
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  1109. # [16:04] * zcorpan_ clones html5lib
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  1125. # [16:43] <zcorpan_> hmm, it's a bad idea to drink coffee, sneeze and have your macbook on the lap at the same time
  1126. # [16:46] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Assiming your computer isn't currently giving you an electric shock, what does the test you just changed now expect? Two adjacent text nodes?
  1127. # [16:47] <zcorpan_> jgraham: yes
  1128. # [16:47] <jgraham> Hmm, I thought that didn't happen
  1129. # [16:47] <zcorpan_> happens when there's a token in between
  1130. # [16:47] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  1131. # [16:48] <zcorpan_> it was changed in the spec at some point
  1132. # [16:48] * jgraham wonders if html5lib can deal with that
  1133. # [16:50] <Philip`> It should be changed so it can :-)
  1134. # [16:50] * Joins: sebmarkbage (n=miranda@213.80.108.29)
  1135. # [16:50] <Philip`> and also so it doesn't have O(n^2) behaviour in any text-concatenation cases, hopefully
  1136. # [16:50] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  1137. # [16:50] <ment> btw is there any html5lib for C?
  1138. # [16:51] <jgraham> ment: Nothing that actually works
  1139. # [16:51] <jgraham> I keep starting writing bits of it and then get bored quite quickly
  1140. # [16:51] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: You only append a char to a text node if the text node was the last node added to the document
  1141. # [16:51] <Philip`> There's hubbub, I think
  1142. # [16:52] <jgraham> Oh yes, there is a C implementation
  1143. # [16:52] <Philip`> http://www.netsurf-browser.org/projects/hubbub/
  1144. # [16:52] <jgraham> But not a html5lib (tm)
  1145. # [16:52] <jgraham> Note: not a real trademark
  1146. # [16:52] * Parts: tantek (n=tantek@70-36-139-203.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  1147. # [16:52] <Philip`> jgraham: What makes an HTML5 implementation a html5lib (tm)?
  1148. # [16:52] <Philip`> s//parser/
  1149. # [16:52] <jgraham> Philip`: It is in the html5lib repository
  1150. # [16:53] <jgraham> (as far as I'm concerned the Pyhton implementation is the only true html5lib; the ruby one was but it died)
  1151. # [16:53] <Philip`> In these days of decentralised VCSs, what is "the ... repository"?
  1152. # [16:53] * Quits: nattokirai (n=nattokir@201.103.142.229)
  1153. # [16:54] <jgraham> Philip`: On code.google.com
  1154. # [16:54] <ment> i think i'll name my library 5libhtml or lib5html
  1155. # [16:54] * Joins: itpastorn (n=gunther@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net)
  1156. # [16:54] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: So PHP is a just an illusion?
  1157. # [16:54] <ment> jgraham: yes, it is boring, because the standard isn't machine readable :)
  1158. # [16:54] <gsnedders|work> Probably the best way, though
  1159. # [16:55] <Philip`> ment: My machine can easily the spec and display its words to me
  1160. # [16:55] <Philip`> *read the spec
  1161. # [16:55] * gsnedders|work notes it wasn't reading the spec that was what bored jgraham
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  1164. # [16:57] <Philip`> If nothing changed since I last checked, it should be possible for html5lib-in-Python to avoid ever concatenating strings multiple times (which can be very slow)
  1165. # [16:57] <Philip`> but as far as I'm aware it doesn't avoid that
  1166. # [16:57] <Philip`> so someone should fix that :-)
  1167. # [16:58] <gsnedders|work> My work on the tokenizer does that a fair bit
  1168. # [16:58] <gsnedders|work> But mainly for temporaryBuffer
  1169. # [16:58] <gsnedders|work> Though I guess we could have that as a list
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  1172. # [16:58] <Philip`> (The idea was that you'd keep a list of text nodes to be inserted, instead of inserting immediately, and when you insert any other node you first concatenate and flush that list and then carry on)
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  1176. # [16:59] <Philip`> (I hope that's what the spec allows)
  1177. # [16:59] <ment> text nodes ought to be coalesced together? ie. "text</ignoredendtag>text" => "texttext" ?
  1178. # [17:00] * Joins: JohnResig (n=JohnResi@121.255.201.74.static.ey03.engineyard.com)
  1179. # [17:01] <Philip`> ment: http://whatwg.org/html5#insert-a-character
  1180. # [17:02] <Philip`> i.e. yes
  1181. # [17:02] <Philip`> in your particular example
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  1183. # [17:07] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan_: May I, however, point out that every TC you change delays the release of html5lib 0.12 :P
  1184. # [17:08] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.116.83.58)
  1185. # [17:09] <zcorpan_> gsnedders|work: i was just changing that tc to make sure that i could commit properly
  1186. # [17:09] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: You need a release branch
  1187. # [17:09] <zcorpan_> gsnedders|work: my objective is to create new tests for script parsing
  1188. # [17:10] <Philip`> on which you can ignore non-obvious bugs such as spec mismatches
  1189. # [17:15] <jgraham> Philip`, gsnedders|work I think we should do that at WHATWG LC and aim to make 0.12 as correct per the LC draft as possible
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  1192. # [17:15] <jgraham> Then we should call it 1.0 or something
  1193. # [17:16] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: Can't hear a word you're saying
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  1195. # [17:16] <zcorpan_> is there a policy i should adhere to before pushing a new set of tests?
  1196. # [17:16] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Like what?
  1197. # [17:16] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: Ah, is this this "selective hearing" thing? :P
  1198. # [17:16] <zcorpan_> dunno, like trying to run the tests or something
  1199. # [17:16] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: No more good headphones
  1200. # [17:16] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: So we should release 0.12, and then call it 1.0?
  1201. # [17:16] * hcr is now known as hamcore
  1202. # [17:16] <jgraham> + extra commas
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  1204. # [17:16] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: But you could hear I was speaking
  1205. # [17:17] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: Your headphones blatantly aren't good enough
  1206. # [17:17] * fishd__ is now known as fishd
  1207. # [17:17] <jgraham> zcorpan_: You should check that you didn't cause any regressions. But if you only changed tests you can't really
  1208. # [17:18] <jgraham> I guess in an ideal world you would ping html5lib-discuss about new tests that the current code fails
  1209. # [17:18] <jgraham> But that never happens
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  1211. # [17:19] * zcorpan_ has now pushed some untested work in progress tests for script
  1212. # [17:20] <zcorpan_> feel free to fix any bugs :)
  1213. # [17:20] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan_: Can't I just nag you?
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  1216. # [17:21] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan_: What's the diff between line 109 and 121?
  1217. # [17:21] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan_: and 192 and 204
  1218. # [17:21] <zcorpan_> a trailing space if i'm guessing correctly which lines you're talking about
  1219. # [17:24] <gsnedders|work> Ah
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  1231. # [17:58] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: Spotify working for you?
  1232. # [17:58] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: No
  1233. # [17:58] <Rik`> gsnedders|work: it just restarted here and not working since
  1234. # [17:59] * gsnedders|work has it offline, but still has the rest of the track he's on in buffer
  1235. # [17:59] <jgraham> This is what happens when I decide to pay for it :(
  1236. # [17:59] <gsnedders|work> (which is rather nice, being a 17 min long track)
  1237. # [17:59] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  1238. # [17:59] <gsnedders|work> Oh, and now it's just come back
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  1245. # [18:11] <Philip`> Someone ought to stop me from filing bugs that would make HTML5 harder to read
  1246. # [18:11] <Philip`> (like http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8087)
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  1268. # [18:45] <ment> in which state starts fragment parser?
  1269. # [18:45] <gsnedders|work> ment: That depends
  1270. # [18:45] <gsnedders|work> ment: see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#html-fragment-parsing-algorithm
  1271. # [18:46] <ment> i see, thanks
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  1334. # [20:55] <Hixie> wtf is johab
  1335. # [20:56] <Philip`> http://unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/OBSOLETE/EASTASIA/KSC/JOHAB.TXT
  1336. # [20:56] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-teprdwmqfxsinxim) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  1337. # [20:56] * Philip` shrugs
  1338. # [20:56] <Philip`> All I know is that it appears to exist
  1339. # [20:57] * Joins: cying_ (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  1340. # [20:57] <Hixie> man, jshin has been at this a while
  1341. # [20:58] * Joins: hamaji (n=hamaji@220.109.219.244)
  1342. # [20:59] <Hixie> it appears to be KS C-5601-1992
  1343. # [21:00] <Hixie> hah, Wikipedia is explicitly missing 1361
  1344. # [21:01] <Hixie> apparently KS C 5601 is now KS X 1001
  1345. # [21:01] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
  1346. # [21:01] <Hixie> oh no wait
  1347. # [21:01] <Hixie> that's the character set
  1348. # [21:01] <Hixie> not the encoding
  1349. # [21:02] <Hixie> but the encoding is listed in KS X 1001 annex 3
  1350. # [21:02] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@nat/mozilla/session)
  1351. # [21:03] <Philip`> http://unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/Archives-Old/UML011/0205.html - "Johab should NOT be considered as included in KS C 5601-1992"
  1352. # [21:04] * Philip` knows nothing about this, except that iconv supports an encoding under the name "johab", and is quite happy not knowing any more :-)
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  1354. # [21:04] * cying_ is now known as cying
  1355. # [21:05] <Hixie> i was quite happy not knowing that much!
  1356. # [21:05] <Hixie> now i am less happy :-P
  1357. # [21:05] * hamcore is now known as hcr
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  1359. # [21:11] <Hixie> Philip`: your no-c-end is wrong
  1360. # [21:11] <Hixie> Philip`: because it doesn't allow a string ending in "-"
  1361. # [21:12] * gsnedders wonders whether he should bother going to uni
  1362. # [21:12] <Hixie> i suppose we could add [ %x2d [ %x2d ] ] at the end of it
  1363. # [21:12] <Hixie> gsnedders: i would encourage it, personally. e.g. it is orders of magnitude harder to get hired by google if you don't have at _least_ an undergrad degree
  1364. # [21:14] <gsnedders> Hixie: I may end up doing something that wouldn't help me get hired by Google anyway :P
  1365. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: I'd recommend going for the same reason. It's not as necessary in the States as I understand it to be in the UK, but still, very helpful.
  1366. # [21:14] <Hixie> gsnedders: how so?
  1367. # [21:15] <gsnedders> Hixie: How beneficial is English Language and Linguistics to getting hired by Google?
  1368. # [21:15] <Hixie> gsnedders: significantly more than Physics
  1369. # [21:15] <Hixie> gsnedders: we have a whole linguistics team
  1370. # [21:15] <gsnedders> Hixie: And you were trying to convince me to do physics before :P
  1371. # [21:15] <Hixie> gsnedders: but the subject matter doesn't matter half as much as the fact that you got a degree
  1372. # [21:15] <jcranmer> not surprising
  1373. # [21:16] <jcranmer> since, after all, Google is first and foremost a search engine
  1374. # [21:16] <Hixie> i was trying to convince you to do something broadly useful, not something specific to getting hired by google :-)
  1375. # [21:17] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
  1376. # [21:17] <jcranmer> hmm, I keep forgetting that we're supposed to leave our sense of logic by the door
  1377. # [21:17] <gsnedders> Applying for uni would in general be easier if: a) I had decent exam results from my last year of school; b) I had a clue about what subject to apply for; c) Where to apply; d) Whether I really want to go to uni.
  1378. # [21:18] <jcranmer> I suspect I could have gotten a job without uni, but it tends to be harder to do so
  1379. # [21:18] <jcranmer> treat uni as 3 or 4 years of laying back
  1380. # [21:19] <inimino> and getting into debt ;-)
  1381. # [21:19] <jcranmer> not in my case
  1382. # [21:20] <jcranmer> 3 years + parents who have fiscal sanity
  1383. # [21:20] <hsivonen> so according to engadget, android 2.0 adds html5 support
  1384. # [21:20] * Joins: roc (n=roc@203.97.204.82)
  1385. # [21:20] <hsivonen> does it mean canvas and h.264 <video> or something else?
  1386. # [21:21] <otherarun> gsnedders, or you could write a great work of literature, and forgo all this "job" tomfoolery.
  1387. # [21:22] <Philip`> Hixie: Oh, good point
  1388. # [21:22] <gsnedders> Gah. decisions that have some vague effect on your future!
  1389. # [21:22] <otherarun> *sigh these days there's no specificity in the term "HTML5 support."
  1390. # [21:22] <otherarun> It's become a marketing catchphrase.
  1391. # [21:23] <Hixie> Philip`: it gets way more complicated for the script case
  1392. # [21:24] <Philip`> Hixie: The script case seems alright since it's not invalid ABNF
  1393. # [21:24] <Philip`> or at least relatively alright
  1394. # [21:24] <erlehmann> inimino, i live in a state without horrendous study debts. berlin ;)
  1395. # [21:24] <Philip`> (though it's kind of cheating to use ABNF and then stick big lumps of prose in it)
  1396. # [21:24] * maikmerten is now known as maik|afk
  1397. # [21:24] <roc> otherarun: this actually works to our advantage in the end, I think
  1398. # [21:25] <gsnedders> In Scotland you can still expect to spend around £30k in total over the course of uni, primarily just on living
  1399. # [21:25] <inimino> erlehmann: yes, a lot of it depends on where you live (and on your grades/test scores)
  1400. # [21:25] <Hixie> otherarun: did you get my e-mail re thursday?
  1401. # [21:26] <jcranmer> I estimate my total university cost at around $100K
  1402. # [21:26] <gsnedders> That just seems completely ridiculous.
  1403. # [21:26] <erlehmann> inimino, in most german states, studying is essentially free of charge
  1404. # [21:27] <otherarun> roc, yeah, the W3C developer thing that brendan, fantasai and I are talking at has attracted lots of folks intrigued by HTML5. maybe you're right.
  1405. # [21:27] <otherarun> Hixie, yep got it. responding now-ish....
  1406. # [21:27] <jcranmer> hey, it's an out-of-state school
  1407. # [21:27] <Hixie> otherarun: k
  1408. # [21:28] <gsnedders> jcranmer: Going to anywhere in the UK would cost me around 30k GBP, going to somewhere in Sweden would cost me around the same…
  1409. # [21:28] * Philip` had something like £12K of student loans and spent a bit less than that over three years, if he remembers correctly
  1410. # [21:28] <erlehmann> gsnedders: come to germany, we have hackers here :3
  1411. # [21:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: So £9k on tutition fees, and £1k/year on living :P
  1412. # [21:29] <gsnedders> erlehmann: That means learning German :P
  1413. # [21:30] <erlehmann> gsnedders it isnt so hart. listen and repeat: JAWOHL HAUPTKOMMISSAR SCHWEINEHUND
  1414. # [21:30] * Joins: erikvold (n=erikvvol@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
  1415. # [21:30] <erlehmann> ZU BEFEHL FEUER SAUERKRAUT
  1416. # [21:30] <Philip`> gsnedders: Tuition fees were only added in my last year
  1417. # [21:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: Silly English.
  1418. # [21:31] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Hey, I'm going to Berlin for Christmas. I'm learning, dammit!
  1419. # [21:31] <Philip`> The only German I learnt and remembered is from Wolfenstein 3D
  1420. # [21:31] <erlehmann> gsnedders, you are attending 26c3 ? are you with the kaminsky crowd ?
  1421. # [21:31] <Dashiva> What about Indiana Jones?
  1422. # [21:32] <gsnedders> erlehmann: wah?
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  1424. # [21:33] <gsnedders> erlehmann: (judging by the fact I've never heard of either, no)
  1425. # [21:33] <erlehmann> gsnedders: 26C3 is the 26th chaos communication congress, 3 to 4 days between christmas and sylvester. several thousand attendees, also international (hey, i unexpectedly ran into bre pettis there)
  1426. # [21:33] <erlehmann> go there, it is awesome
  1427. # [21:33] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Looking it up, I could only go to the first day
  1428. # [21:34] <gsnedders> (I leave for my parent's on the 28th)
  1429. # [21:35] <erlehmann> then go there for a day
  1430. # [21:35] <erlehmann> its the most awesome event to attend in that timeframe
  1431. # [21:35] <gsnedders> erlehmann: I'm unlikely to have the time
  1432. # [21:35] <gsnedders> Also, I should probably finally get around to having supper
  1433. # [21:36] <erlehmann> sad thing.
  1434. # [21:37] * gsnedders turns oven on, and realizes he has to wait
  1435. # [21:38] * gsnedders was blatantly spoiled growing up with his parents with an Aga and not having to wait
  1436. # [21:38] <Hixie> mmm agas
  1437. # [21:38] <Hixie> i wish they had those here
  1438. # [21:39] <erlehmann> what is an „aga“?
  1439. # [21:39] <gsnedders> erlehmann: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGA_cooker
  1440. # [21:39] <Philip`> Is it like a microwave?
  1441. # [21:39] <Philip`> You don't have to wait for those
  1442. # [21:40] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-vrrvjszvztuvlclx)
  1443. # [21:41] <Hixie> you'll wait forever if you wait for them to cook the food properly
  1444. # [21:41] <erlehmann> Philip`, it seems to be an expensive, energy-hungry cooking artifact from 80 years ago.
  1445. # [21:41] * Joins: nattokirai (n=nattokir@201.103.111.30)
  1446. # [21:42] * gsnedders guesses the one at his parent's house is around 30 years old
  1447. # [21:43] <Hixie> it's usually used as a replacement or supplement for the house hot water or radiator heating, so it turns out not to be more wasteful than most systems
  1448. # [21:43] <Hixie> though it's certainly not what one would call "Efficient"
  1449. # [21:44] <gsnedders> When you're dealing with an Edwardian house where heat seeps out through the walls and windows like there's no tomorrow, keeping one room at a reasonable temperature is a challenge in and of itself
  1450. # [21:45] <gsnedders> (And keeping a room at a sane temp. basically means having a gas fire on continuously 24/7 over the winter)
  1451. # [21:46] <gsnedders> (As even if you turn it off overnight, you then spend the first 10 hours of the day getting the room up to any temp. where you can bear to be in it)
  1452. # [21:46] <Hixie> or, one could use something known as "insulation"
  1453. # [21:46] <Hixie> but don't feel bad, californians don't know what that is either
  1454. # [21:46] <gsnedders> Hixie: You can't really do much about the outside walls of the house
  1455. # [21:46] <gsnedders> Hixie: (at least without significant structural changes, which with a listed building…)
  1456. # [21:46] <Hixie> this isn't my area of expertise, but i'd be surprised if there was really nothing one could do
  1457. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> You just tear out the drywall and stuff insulation in there, then put it back. (Though your houses may not be built to work like that...)
  1458. # [21:47] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Edwardian houses don't have Drywall in general :)
  1459. # [21:47] <Hixie> hey so good news everyone!
  1460. # [21:47] <Hixie> i'm at 0,1,0 again
  1461. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> Woo!
  1462. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Then your houses are built wrong. ^_^
  1463. # [21:48] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: No, not really. You have brick walls with plaster directly applied to the,
  1464. # [21:48] * Quits: erikvold (n=erikvvol@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
  1465. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> so the walls themselves are brick?
  1466. # [21:49] * Quits: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-mksmycdlfucvyjwk)
  1467. # [21:49] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Yes
  1468. # [21:49] <gsnedders> A hundred years ago, if you wanted a wall in house, you used bricks.
  1469. # [21:50] <TabAtkins> Interesting. I've only ever seen brick used as a facade. Still, if you don't mind losing a few inches off the room dimensions, you could improvise drywall into the room, allowing you to sandwich insulation between the wall layers.
  1470. # [21:51] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listed_building
  1471. # [21:51] * Quits: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  1472. # [21:51] <Philip`> Oops, I failed to notice that cp1361 == johab
  1473. # [21:52] <Philip`> or forgot from when I last looked at it
  1474. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> Ah, that sort of mod probably would count as being against code, then.
  1475. # [21:52] <mpilgrim> gsnedders, jgraham: which html5 outliner should i point people to?
  1476. # [21:52] <gsnedders> mpilgrim: Mine, his is out of date
  1477. # [21:53] <Philip`> Why are approximately none of the rationale comments getting through to public-html-bugzilla?
  1478. # [21:53] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Esp. when it is listed because it has almost all original fittings
  1479. # [21:53] <mpilgrim> ok, thanks
  1480. # [21:53] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: And when there's a lot of fine-wood around the walls in places…
  1481. # [21:53] * Quits: maik|afk (n=maikmert@BAE2dd3.bae.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  1482. # [21:59] <gsnedders> jgraham: Where can you buy tissues here? I've not seen anywhere selling them anywhere…
  1483. # [21:59] * Quits: miketaylr (n=miketayl@38.117.156.163)
  1484. # [22:03] <ment> what for are the attributes in closing tags? </b xxx=zz> ?
  1485. # [22:03] <Hixie> nothing
  1486. # [22:03] <Philip`> Hmph, it takes more effort to close bugs than to file them
  1487. # [22:07] <Hixie> hah
  1488. # [22:07] <Philip`> Also it's hard to find which bugs are mine
  1489. # [22:07] <Hixie> even with the IP address?
  1490. # [22:07] <Philip`> because I have dozens of different IP addresses
  1491. # [22:08] <Philip`> I use at least three different internet connections each day, none of which have static IPs
  1492. # [22:11] * Quits: fishd (n=darin@nat/google/x-djydikzmifniyrkl) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  1493. # [22:12] * Quits: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  1494. # [22:12] * Quits: GPHemsley (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  1495. # [22:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: Apoteket for sure. also I think the supermarket
  1496. # [22:15] <Philip`> Hmm, I think I got them all now
  1497. # [22:15] <Philip`> and only had to reopen one
  1498. # [22:15] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Normal food stores have them
  1499. # [22:15] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
  1500. # [22:16] * Quits: nattokirai (n=nattokir@201.103.111.30)
  1501. # [22:17] * Joins: erikvold (n=erikvvol@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
  1502. # [22:17] <Hixie> Philip`: good times
  1503. # [22:18] <ment> script-data-double-escaped-dash-dash-state ... what the fuck
  1504. # [22:19] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  1505. # [22:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: hmm, I didn't see any when I looked (albeit very briefly before)
  1506. # [22:20] <Dashiva> They're well hidden
  1507. # [22:20] <Dashiva> Sometimes there's just a single type and a single brand
  1508. # [22:20] * Quits: michaelforrest (n=michaelf@91.189.88.12) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  1509. # [22:21] * Joins: michaelforrest (n=michaelf@91.189.88.12)
  1510. # [22:22] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@63.245.220.240)
  1511. # [22:22] <jgraham> gsnedders: BTW you are really making oo big a deal out of this whole university thing. You should just pick something
  1512. # [22:22] <jgraham> It doesn't matter what so much
  1513. # [22:22] <jgraham> or where
  1514. # [22:22] <jgraham> (wihin reasonable limits in both cases)
  1515. # [22:23] <jgraham> (i.e. it has to be something you expect to enjoy somewhere you can bear to live and aren't embarassedto graduate from)
  1516. # [22:23] <jgraham> You can't make a prefect objective decision because all the necessary facts aren't there
  1517. # [22:24] * aroben|afk is now known as aroben
  1518. # [22:24] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  1519. # [22:28] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  1520. # [22:28] * Joins: JonathanNeal (n=Jonathan@76.79.114.213)
  1521. # [22:28] <JonathanNeal> is the source code for outliner available?
  1522. # [22:30] <Hixie> Philip`: yt?
  1523. # [22:30] * Quits: gratz|home (n=gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) ("Leaving")
  1524. # [22:31] <Hixie> Philip`: is there a version of your multipage script that takes an argument for which index file to process and an argument for where to post the results?
  1525. # [22:31] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik`@chn38-1-78-231-168-7.fbx.proxad.net)
  1526. # [22:31] <Hixie> Philip`: or alternatively, can you mail me the multipage version of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2009-10-27/ ?
  1527. # [22:31] <Philip`> Hixie: There's not an online version that does that, only the offline Python script
  1528. # [22:32] * Philip` could do that in an hour or so
  1529. # [22:32] <Hixie> cool, thanks
  1530. # [22:33] * Philip` should make sure the sections are sensibly split, too
  1531. # [22:34] <ment> i know i will be probably banned for this statement, but the author (or team of authors) who created html5 tokenizer (the latest version) deserves to get an inoperable tumor at the base of his spine
  1532. # [22:34] <Hixie> ment: :-(
  1533. # [22:35] * Joins: GPHemsley (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
  1534. # [22:36] <ment> now i have to either retype 300KB worth of DFA state machine or draw several pages of diagrams to figure out all the hidden exceptions of latest tokenizer
  1535. # [22:37] <Hixie> ment: anything in particular that can make it sier for you? i think the changes actually made the parser simpler, not more complex (though it has more states)
  1536. # [22:37] <Hixie> (the changes were necessary to be compatible with legacy content)
  1537. # [22:39] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: There is an ouliner as part of anolis which I think is the basis for gsnedders online one
  1538. # [22:39] <jgraham> look at hg.gsnedders.org or so
  1539. # [22:39] <gsnedders> s/org/com/
  1540. # [22:39] <ment> Hixie: well if i ever finish the diagrams, i will show you simpler way to describe automatons like this
  1541. # [22:40] <Hixie> ment: that'd be great
  1542. # [22:40] * jgraham finds the current spec reaonably simple to understand
  1543. # [22:40] <jgraham> *reasonably
  1544. # [22:41] <JonathanNeal> This is great, thanks jgraham and gsnedders
  1545. # [22:41] <jgraham> (certianly not so complex that I am wishing painful death on Hixie)
  1546. # [22:42] <gsnedders> So you just do that for different reasons?
  1547. # [22:42] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  1548. # [22:43] <Hixie> ok, anyone have any reason i shouldn't hit "submit" on this blog post?
  1549. # [22:43] <gsnedders> Because the button is labelled, "Publish"
  1550. # [22:43] <Hixie> btw i only created a static copy of the html5 spec, not the complete, vocabs, and workers specs
  1551. # [22:43] <Hixie> because that takes way the hell too long per spec
  1552. # [22:43] <Hixie> and it's not clear to me what the benefit is
  1553. # [22:43] <Hixie> gsnedders: good reason, any others? :-)
  1554. # [22:44] <jgraham> Hixie: No
  1555. # [22:44] * Quits: yoshu (n=josh@174-18-207-206.tcso.qwest.net)
  1556. # [22:44] <Hixie> ok i have scheduled it for 21:55, which i guess is in about 10 minutes
  1557. # [22:44] <Philip`> Because there's no multipage version yet and so you'll crash people's browsers when they look at it? :-)
  1558. # [22:45] * Joins: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  1559. # [22:46] <Hixie> the blog post just links to the current-work/ spec: http://blog.whatwg.org/html5-at-last-call
  1560. # [22:46] * Joins: nessy (n=Adium@124-168-142-226.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  1561. # [22:46] <Hixie> actually it links to current-work/multipage/
  1562. # [22:47] * Quits: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186) ("Leaving.")
  1563. # [22:49] * Philip` tries multipaging it now
  1564. # [22:49] * Quits: smaug_ (n=chatzill@82.181.150.24) ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.7a1pre/20091015073430]")
  1565. # [22:49] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  1566. # [22:49] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@user-0ce2l9d.cable.mindspring.com)
  1567. # [22:51] <Hixie> 4 minutes to go!
  1568. # [22:51] <mpilgrim> future-posts are evil
  1569. # [22:52] <mpilgrim> i tweeted it and then realized that the link is 404 for anyone not logged into blog.whatwg.org
  1570. # [22:52] <gsnedders> The past and the future are only illusions, there is only now.
  1571. # [22:52] <erlehmann> quick, mpilgrim, submit it to slashdot, so subscribers can see posts IN THE FUTURE
  1572. # [22:52] <Hixie> mpilgrim: hah
  1573. # [22:52] * Hixie advances the publication time!
  1574. # [22:52] <mpilgrim> no no, i don't want to be responsible for html5 going to last call before it's ready!
  1575. # [22:53] <Hixie> we're live baby!
  1576. # [22:53] <erlehmann> Hixie, you need an additional status code, akin to 410 gone. 4xx - Not There Yet for stuff reserved for future use ;)
  1577. # [22:54] * Quits: hobertoAtWork (n=hobertoa@gw1.mcgraw-hill.com) ("Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de")
  1578. # [22:54] <Hixie> erlehmann: heh
  1579. # [22:54] <Hixie> erlehmann: i'm sure that exists in some HTTP extension somewhere
  1580. # [22:55] <Dashiva> erlehmann: Just set up a chain of "see other" redirects that goes on until the resource comes into existence
  1581. # [22:56] <mpilgrim> damn, someone replied to my tweet saying the link was 404
  1582. # [22:56] <erlehmann> Dashiva, browsers will stop if there are dozens of redirect
  1583. # [22:56] <erlehmann> s
  1584. # [22:56] <mpilgrim> damn the real-time web!
  1585. # [22:57] <mpilgrim> seriously though, this is a historic moment
  1586. # [22:57] <jgraham> Hixie: Might have been good o mention that the HTMLWG don't consider the spec in LC yet
  1587. # [22:57] <mpilgrim> i'm just glad i was here to help fuck it up
  1588. # [22:57] * Quits: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@dslb-084-060-053-084.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  1589. # [22:57] <Dashiva> erlehmann: Okay, make it only one redirect, but it hangs (or writes junk headers) until the location exists
  1590. # [22:57] <gsnedders> Hmm, free shipping on deviantart today
  1591. # [22:58] <Philip`> Hixie: http://philip.html5.org/misc/multipage-web-apps-2009-10-27.tar.gz might be it
  1592. # [22:58] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also, what's the whole deal with recieving large packages in the post here?
  1593. # [22:59] <Hixie> jgraham: i figured if i qualified it as "at the WHATWG" each time, that'd be clear enough. I don't want to sound like I'm saying "neener neener" or something like that.
  1594. # [22:59] <Hixie> our relations are strained enough as it is
  1595. # [22:59] <Philip`> Dashiva: Why redirect? Just let the server hold onto the HTTP session forever, until the response is ready
  1596. # [23:00] <Philip`> Dashiva: (sending an "X-Ping: .........." header with a new byte every few seconds to stop it timing out)
  1597. # [23:00] <Dashiva> I imagined a dedicated server handling these long connections
  1598. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Man, wish I had some money to order a few prints, then.
  1599. # [23:00] <Dashiva> So the real content doesn't have to worry
  1600. # [23:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: They end up at the postofice usually
  1601. # [23:00] <jgraham> Well at the place on Nygatan
  1602. # [23:01] <gsnedders> jgraham: The one parallel to Vasa vagen?
  1603. # [23:01] <jgraham> Hixie: I think the current text could be construed as misleading
  1604. # [23:01] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: I wish I could find what I thought I had saved as a favourite before :(
  1605. # [23:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: Er not sure. Maybe I am wrong abou the name of the stree
  1606. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Yeah, that's often the problem. The site's too big! o_O
  1607. # [23:02] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, where?
  1608. # [23:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: Near Hemkop
  1609. # [23:02] <jgraham> (the one near St Lars)
  1610. # [23:03] <gsnedders> Where there?
  1611. # [23:03] <erlehmann> i hope moot implements some audio / video (don't they have a flash board?)
  1612. # [23:03] <jgraham> gsnedders: In the spel + tobac (sp?)
  1613. # [23:03] <jgraham> you get a note through the door
  1614. # [23:04] <jgraham> (I guess it might end up in a different place for you)
  1615. # [23:04] <erlehmann> i predict YTMND will be the most obnoxious HTML5 page in the next decade
  1616. # [23:04] <gsnedders> From where I know where places are, I don't think we live far enough apart for there to really be any difference
  1617. # [23:04] <Hixie> jgraham: ok, updated
  1618. # [23:04] <Hixie> jgraham: (added a note at the bottom)
  1619. # [23:05] <mpilgrim> just put a note that says "it's all over but the screaming"
  1620. # [23:05] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: And now I keep finding things that aren't available as prints. gah.
  1621. # [23:05] <othermaciej> Hixie: I have a question about bug hygiene
  1622. # [23:05] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes sir
  1623. # [23:05] <othermaciej> Hixie: you resolved a couple of my bugs in a way that completely addresses the original problem, but introduces what I think is a new, totally different problem
  1624. # [23:06] <othermaciej> Hixie: should I reopen the bugs or file new ones?
  1625. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: I just don't understand creators that don't make everything print-availabl. It's silly.
  1626. # [23:06] <Hixie> othermaciej: either is fine by me, i'd recommend asking the chairs for their advice but that's you :-P
  1627. # [23:06] * gsnedders would really like http://pyromaniac.deviantart.com/art/Saving-all-my-words-24031392 as a print
  1628. # [23:06] <othermaciej> Hixie: yeah I wanted to see if you have a preference
  1629. # [23:06] * gsnedders knows he'll be mocked by jgraham for that
  1630. # [23:06] <Hixie> othermaciej: i think generally new bugs is better, but in practice it makes little difference
  1631. # [23:07] <othermaciej> to be specific the problem is that HTMLCollection subclasses now violate the Liskov Substitution Principle
  1632. # [23:07] <othermaciej> I'll file a new bug
  1633. # [23:08] <Dashiva> That sounds serious
  1634. # [23:08] <mpilgrim> ok, i looked that up on wikipedia and now i'm even more confused
  1635. # [23:08] <Philip`> gsnedders: Surely it'd be better to get something less depressing
  1636. # [23:08] <Hixie> othermaciej: i don't see how changing the type would change that
  1637. # [23:08] <mpilgrim> it's probably my fault for dropping out of CS and pursuing a philosophy degree
  1638. # [23:09] <mpilgrim> but could someone explain the liskov substitution principle without using any greek letters?
  1639. # [23:09] <Hixie> othermaciej: regardless of what the interface says, the parent interface is always going to return only Element objects, whereas the subclasses can return more
  1640. # [23:09] <othermaciej> Hixie: LSP is about the contract, not the behavior
  1641. # [23:09] * gsnedders did the same, it's just he doesn't have a degree at all
  1642. # [23:09] <othermaciej> Hixie: you can't promise in the base class to return only Element if subclasses might return more general types
  1643. # [23:09] <Hixie> othermaciej: that seems like a distinction without a difference, as people say
  1644. # [23:10] <Hixie> othermaciej: we do promise (in prose) to only return Element objects
  1645. # [23:10] <Hixie> regardless of what the interface says
  1646. # [23:10] <Philip`> mpilgrim: I think the idea is that whenever you write code based on the requirements/guarantees of class(/interface) A, then you can safely pass it an object of any subclass of A and it won't violate the contract
  1647. # [23:10] <ment> html5 specs is written by philosophers? :))
  1648. # [23:10] <Hixie> othermaciej: and regardless of what the interface says, you can always screw around with the prototype and have any object return anything for anything
  1649. # [23:10] <othermaciej> Hixie: the way it's a practical problem is that you can't generate interfaces for any statically typed language from the WebIDL as currently written (including Java and Objective-C)
  1650. # [23:10] <gsnedders> Philip`: That really isn't very dark
  1651. # [23:10] <Hixie> ah, that's a more interesting problem
  1652. # [23:11] <Philip`> (e.g. a subclass might override a method to return a subtype of the original type, but can't return a supertype)
  1653. # [23:11] <gsnedders> Philip`: Maybe my perception of such things is a bit off, though
  1654. # [23:11] <Hixie> othermaciej: file that as the bug :-)
  1655. # [23:11] <othermaciej> Hixie: doing so
  1656. # [23:11] <mpilgrim> Philip`: thanks, that makes sense
  1657. # [23:11] * Joins: nattokirai (n=nattokir@201.103.111.30)
  1658. # [23:12] <Philip`> gsnedders: It's all blacks and greys and crying. You should get something like http://veganya.deviantart.com/art/Pony-41998085 which has nice colours and happy animals
  1659. # [23:13] <gsnedders> Philip`: Not available as a print, sorry
  1660. # [23:13] <mpilgrim> for the benefit of people reading this discussion later, i recommend http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LiskovSubstitutionPrinciple instead of the wikipedia article
  1661. # [23:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: Also the artist seems to see himself as a short man with an enormous red penis hanging from his forhead
  1662. # [23:14] <othermaciej> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8092
  1663. # [23:14] <Hixie> othermaciej: thanks
  1664. # [23:15] <ment> speaking of deviantart, does anybody know why it has <keeper for="Smoothie.thumbs"></keeper><smoothie q="special:dd" qx="1"...> tags in body or what they are good for?
  1665. # [23:15] * Philip` notes that he doesn't remember hearing of the LSP in his CS degree at all
  1666. # [23:15] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  1667. # [23:16] <othermaciej> Philip`: I had Barbara Liskov for a professor
  1668. # [23:16] <othermaciej> (though she didn't bring up the principle by that name in class)
  1669. # [23:16] <Philip`> I didn't :-(
  1670. # [23:17] <gsnedders> Why is it that the majority of "People" prints on deviantART are either half-naked or completely-naked?
  1671. # [23:17] * jgraham thinks that constrining subtypes to always have the same behaviour as supertypes sounds rather limiting
  1672. # [23:17] <othermaciej> the rule isn't that they have to have "the same" behavior
  1673. # [23:18] <othermaciej> just that if a caller follows the contract, a subtype will respect the contract
  1674. # [23:18] <othermaciej> HTMLVideoElement doesn't have the same behavior as HTMLElement, but all HTMLElement methods do what is guaranteed by contract
  1675. # [23:18] <jgraham> Hmm, the c2.com wiki says "What is wanted here is something like the following substitution property: If for each object o1 of type S there is an object o2 of type T such that for all programs P defined in terms of T, the behavior of P is unchanged when o1 is substituted for o2 then S is a subtype of T."
  1676. # [23:18] <Dashiva> Apparently you have to be logged in to buy the naked prints :P
  1677. # [23:19] <gsnedders> Thankfully, I'm logged in :P
  1678. # [23:21] <Philip`> jgraham: I don't believe that's the same as the definition I usually associated with the term
  1679. # [23:21] <jgraham> othermaciej: But you could check if an element had a play method, for example and that would be a program that didn't run unchanged when a HTMLVideoElement was passed in instead of a HTMLElement
  1680. # [23:21] <othermaciej> the idea is if you have a only reference to the base type, any code you write that works with that interface and follows its side of the contract should remain correct, if you actually pass it an object that's an instance of a subtype
  1681. # [23:21] <Philip`> *usually see associated
  1682. # [23:21] <othermaciej> that's true - but lacking a "play" method is not part of HTMLElement's contract
  1683. # [23:22] <jgraham> So how do you tell which parts are contract and which parts are not?
  1684. # [23:22] <Philip`> The static type information is part of the contract
  1685. # [23:22] <Philip`> i.e. the types in the IDL
  1686. # [23:22] <Dashiva> The interfaces only promise existence, not non-existence
  1687. # [23:23] <Philip`> and then I guess anything else is typically in comments
  1688. # [23:23] <Philip`> (or, rather, typically not stated at all, but if was anywhere it'd probably be in comments)
  1689. # [23:23] <jgraham> It isn't obvious to me why existence is more important than non existance
  1690. # [23:24] <jgraham> (or why types are more important than other things)
  1691. # [23:24] * gsnedders wishes he could find what he was looking for
  1692. # [23:25] <gsnedders> "But I still haven't found what I'm looking for"
  1693. # [23:25] <Dashiva> Try looking in the last place
  1694. # [23:25] <othermaciej> I don't think there's a question of important or not - just what is or isn't promised
  1695. # [23:25] <othermaciej> Web IDL is a contract - it guarantees that if you have an instance of a certain interface, the methods and properties have the stated type signatures
  1696. # [23:25] <othermaciej> it doesn't promise that an object lacks other interfaces
  1697. # [23:26] <othermaciej> it does promise that an object also implements the inherited interfaces
  1698. # [23:26] <Philip`> Existence is important because typically you'll write code that acts on objects, and you know the interface of the objects, and you want to be sure that if you call some method with arguments that follow certain requirements (like types) it'll return something that follows certain requirements (like types), else you've got no hope of writing working code
  1699. # [23:26] <jgraham> gsnedders: I wouldn't worry. U2 didn't manage that and they have still been quite successful
  1700. # [23:26] <jgraham> Oh you said that
  1701. # [23:26] <jgraham> don't mind me
  1702. # [23:26] <Philip`> and you'll rarely write code that assumes you'll get an exception if you call a certain method that wasn't defined
  1703. # [23:27] <Philip`> (especially in statically-typed languages where you'd get a compile error)
  1704. # [23:27] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  1705. # [23:27] <Dashiva> Unless it's a method throwing NotImplementedException
  1706. # [23:27] <jgraham> It seems like a reasonable strategy in non-static languages though
  1707. # [23:27] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@chn38-1-78-231-168-7.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  1708. # [23:28] <Philip`> Non-static languages are weird and crazy and you've got no hope of writing working code
  1709. # [23:29] <Philip`> At least with Web IDL you can work under the impresion that you've got a proper class-based language
  1710. # [23:30] <jgraham> (also LSP seems like it should want to say something about duck typing since that is about interfaces if not subtypes. But in practice it is quite common for similar types to not fully replace each other, and the world doesn't collapse)
  1711. # [23:30] <othermaciej> I really shouldn't have cited LSP for my issue anyway
  1712. # [23:31] <othermaciej> since in this case the subtyping fails on a syntactic / type signature level, not just a semantic level
  1713. # [23:31] <Philip`> Hixie: Did you see the multipage thing I mentioned here earlier?
  1714. # [23:31] * jgraham is not meaning to suggest that LSP is not useful or anything, just to try and understand it better
  1715. # [23:31] <othermaciej> Liskov's original statement was something like "Let q(x) be a property provable about objects x of type T. Then q(y) should be true for objects y of type S where S is a subtype of T."
  1716. # [23:31] * Philip` is wondering since the URL still redirects to current-work/multipage
  1717. # [23:32] <othermaciej> so then it depends on what "provable property" means
  1718. # [23:32] * lmorchard is now known as lmorchard|away
  1719. # [23:32] <othermaciej> which depends on how T is defined
  1720. # [23:32] <othermaciej> if T is defined in terms of some sort of contract, then everything that can be inferred from that contract is a "provable property"
  1721. # [23:32] <Hixie> Philip`: i had not, but got it now, thanks. downloading...
  1722. # [23:32] * Joins: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  1723. # [23:33] <othermaciej> so going back to the HTMLElement interface, it's a provable property that any HTML element has a click() method with no arguments and void return type
  1724. # [23:34] <othermaciej> it's not a provable property that an HTMLElement *lacks* a play() method
  1725. # [23:35] <othermaciej> but anyway a contravariant return type is a violation of more basic notions of subtyping than LSP
  1726. # [23:36] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
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  1736. # Session Close: Wed Oct 28 00:00:00 2009

The end :)