/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 30 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:04] * Parts: cgriego (n=cgriego@rrcs-24-173-70-117.sw.biz.rr.com)
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  7. # [00:11] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, its humor sans. sub-standard from a font geek perspective, but usable for xkcd-rip-offs.
  8. # [00:11] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@80-225-9-175.dynamic.dial.as9105.com)
  9. # [00:11] <erlehmann> i think it got published on the xkcd blog some time ago
  10. # [00:12] <erlehmann> err, the xkcd SUCKS blog
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  12. # [00:16] <jgraham> erlehmann: Not a waste of time. And I don't really want the jokes or anything. I just want the drawing style
  13. # [00:16] <jgraham> and a signature
  14. # [00:17] <erlehmann> jgraham, well, then chat randall up on IRC. though last time I did that he took 9 hours to reply (time-zones, hah)
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  16. # [00:17] <jgraham> (since the whole point is to have a cool physical artifact)
  17. # [00:17] <erlehmann> or, just do a little magic with the svg output of dot.
  18. # [00:18] <erlehmann> like, using humor sans and wiggling the points by a few pixals
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  20. # [00:18] <erlehmann> then attend a convention and get it signed :D
  21. # [00:18] <jgraham> erlehmann: Not sonvinced that would work. "Hi do you fancy making a drawing of some huely complex state machine so that I can have a cool poster for my office wall?" "No." "Oh.")
  22. # [00:19] <erlehmann> i guess so, but you can try
  23. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Oh, huh. Well, xkcd forumites put together an actual font made from Randall's writing, too.
  24. # [00:19] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, is it better than humor sans?
  25. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> It's remarkably similar.
  26. # [00:19] <jgraham> erlehmann: Nothing fake is worthwhile. You seem to be missing the point that it only has aesthetic value and the aesthetic value of a fake is zero
  27. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> After all, I thought you were using it.
  28. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I challenge that assertion.
  29. # [00:20] <jgraham> OK, it's actually negative
  30. # [00:20] <erlehmann> jgraham, i challenge that assertion. i have produced some really funny xkcd fakes, jusf for shits and giggles. (and got "oh, when did that come out ?" :D)
  31. # [00:21] <erlehmann> and others have too, mostly satirically
  32. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Aesthetics has little to nothing to do with provenance.
  33. # [00:21] <jgraham> In the sense that I would rather have something that looked different than something that was a fake-xkcd-style thing with the same information
  34. # [00:21] <Philip`> jgraham: If someone made a fake and told you it was real and sold it to you for lots of money, would it have more aesthetic value?
  35. # [00:22] <erlehmann> hah, we're getting philosophical \o/
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  38. # [00:22] <jgraham> Philip`: Happens all the time in the art world. When the fake is discovered all the value is lost
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  40. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> The monetary value is lost. The aesthetic value isn't. That's just silly to say.
  41. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> The fact that it has the same aesthetic value is the reason it was a successful fake in the first place.
  42. # [00:23] <jgraham> TabAtkins: No it's not. How many owners of fake painings do you think enjoy looking at them as much as they didwhen they believed they were non-fake
  43. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> That has nothing to do with aesthetics. It's affected by an entirely different value.
  44. # [00:24] <ment> but not all good paintings were paint by one particular painter
  45. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> (Namely, that an original is inherently better than a copy.)
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  47. # [00:24] <jgraham> Only if you have a very narrow definition of aesthetics.
  48. # [00:24] <erlehmann> jgraham, we live in a digital age. its all about information. in my room there is a laptop on which the first draft of the german pirate party was noted down, on the evening before founding of that party, in a beer garden. i do not consider that laptop as of great value (in fact, it is broken), but the information that was collected on it is really nice.
  49. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> (Also, that one has a painting that is worth a lot, rather than a fake worth relatively little.)
  50. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> Monetary value has a surprising, um, value to people.
  51. # [00:25] <erlehmann> my brother has a fake watch that looks expensive. it doesn't make a difference for him.
  52. # [00:25] <erlehmann> neather for me.
  53. # [00:26] <erlehmann> jgraham, do you think that sentimental value is assigned to objects or to ideas of objects?
  54. # [00:27] <jgraham> Right so creuly briging up the original point again, having a fake-xkcd style diagram would be worthless /to me/. I would rather have a different style. Having a real one would be cool.
  55. # [00:27] * jgraham doesn't know what an idea of an object is
  56. # [00:27] <erlehmann> jgraham, then chat up randall and ask if he does commissioned diagrams. just do it. its the only way to be sure.
  57. # [00:27] <Philip`> Having one which you believe is real would be just as cool
  58. # [00:28] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes. Until it was shown to be fake
  59. # [00:28] * jgraham doesn't actually want this enough to do anything about it
  60. # [00:28] <erlehmann> i mean, for him its probably not a big deal. many artists work for hire.
  61. # [00:28] <Philip`> Lock it up in a private collection and don't let anyone look at it
  62. # [00:28] <Philip`> so they'll never have an opportunity to show it's fake
  63. # [00:31] <erlehmann> jgraham, an idea, well a concept. compare a person to the concept you have of that person internally. what is the entity you attach value to?
  64. # [00:31] <erlehmann> for me, it would be the idea. obv.
  65. # [00:32] <Philip`> What if I think no entity has any value at all?
  66. # [00:44] <othermaciej> the longdesc thread is long
  67. # [00:45] <othermaciej> I should probably catch up with it at some point
  68. # [00:45] <erlehmann> Philip`, you are nihilist. proceed to the reeducation chamber ASAP.
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  71. # [01:10] <Philip`> erlehmann: That's not a reeducation chamber, it's an incineration chamber
  72. # [01:10] <Philip`> You can't fool me that easily
  73. # [01:12] <erlehmann> Philip`, its perfecty safe. the WHATWG wishes to remind you that incineration state is not yet part of the spec.
  74. # [01:12] * Parts: Midler (n=midler@212.37.124.243) ("Leaving.")
  75. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> No one would happen to have an xp home sp3 license key, would they? I'm reimaging a comp for a friend, and of course his windows disk is long gone.
  76. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Alternately, a trustable iso for xp without any service packs. I have a key for that.
  77. # [01:22] <Philip`> Don't computers normally have license keys printed in a sticker on the back or something?
  78. # [01:22] <Philip`> s/in/on/
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  80. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but that's for xp home sp0. The key won't work for a higher service pack.
  81. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> double alternately, I have an xp pro sp2 disk. I have a surfeit of keys and disks, but none that match.
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  87. # [01:41] <MikeSmith> can somebody who has IE7 or IE8 running please do a quick test of something for me?
  88. # [01:41] * MikeSmith too lazy to start his Windows VM
  89. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> shoot
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  97. # [02:01] <CryptoQuick> Reposted from #html (sorry!)-- Hello folks! I have a very specialized problem... while using canvas within foreignobject in SVG, I can't stack two canvases on top of each other and have the one behind it still be visible. one canvas I have markers and cursors and stuff that's updated often, then in the other is CPU-intensive, persistent stuff.
  98. # [02:01] <CryptoQuick> trying this doesn't work:
  99. # [02:01] <CryptoQuick> ctx.globalCompositeOperation("destination-over");
  100. # [02:01] <CryptoQuick> ctx.drawImage(bg, 0, 0, 1000, 800);
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  102. # [02:04] <erlehmann> CryptoQuick, why don't you just have one canvas?
  103. # [02:04] <erlehmann> also, isn't this a browser-specific thing?
  104. # [02:04] <CryptoQuick> I'm trying that now, actually-- with save and restore?
  105. # [02:04] <CryptoQuick> browser-specific? no, I don't think so, it does the same in Firefox and WebKit
  106. # [02:04] <erlehmann> CryptoQuick, tried it with all of webkit, gecko and presto ?
  107. # [02:05] <CryptoQuick> I can try presto now, one sec
  108. # [02:05] <CryptoQuick> oh lord
  109. # [02:05] <CryptoQuick> I hope people don't use opera :P
  110. # [02:05] <CryptoQuick> it messed up my unicode! >:I
  111. # [02:05] <CryptoQuick> anyway
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  113. # [02:06] <CryptoQuick> now my new approach is to draw the markers directly on the canvas, then restore it at the end of the function...
  114. # [02:06] <CryptoQuick> is that the right way to do it? :I
  115. # [02:07] <erlehmann> dunno. i'm no canvas expert.
  116. # [02:07] <erlehmann> CryptoQuick, i'd ask on mozilla IRC if i were you.
  117. # [02:07] <CryptoQuick> alrighty, thanks :)
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  127. # [02:50] <MikeSmith> anybody running dev-channel Chrome on Linux? I've got 223.11 and my status bar seems to have completely disappeared.. wondering if it's a known issue
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  134. # [03:12] <MikeSmith> http://www.indicthreads.com/3625/html-5-websocket-cracks-the-http-request-response-barrier/
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  157. # [04:29] <MikeSmith> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/IriWorkGoals
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  160. # [04:34] * Hixie goes cross-eyed trying to understand some of the e-mails on the hybi list
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  163. # [04:37] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I just added links to the "Error handling in URIs" discussion thread on the uri@w3.org list from last year
  164. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> added to that wiki page, that is
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  166. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> speaking of HyBi - http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/HyBi
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  172. # [05:04] <othermaciej> good evening
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  177. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: so I'll be at both the HyBi and IRI BOFs on November 10 in Hiroshima, nominally representing W3C and the HTML WG. At some point between now and then, would like to make sure I'm synced up with others from the group to make sure I can try to make whatever points we want made
  178. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> Hixie also　↑
  179. # [05:13] <Hixie> yeah let's meet next week
  180. # [05:13] <Hixie> grab me at some point
  181. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> OK
  182. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> hai
  183. # [05:13] <Hixie> i'm gonna be running around like a headless chicken
  184. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> I know Larry has been working on try to put together some f2f time for IRI discussion next Thursday, but don't know that it's been decided yet or not (I've got some e-mail in my inbox to read yet)
  185. # [05:15] <Hixie> no decision that i've seen
  186. # [05:15] <Hixie> unicode is meeting at the same time in cupertino or something
  187. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> yeah
  188. # [05:15] <Hixie> some of us might have to take a ride down there at some point
  189. # [05:15] <Hixie> dunno what the story is
  190. # [05:16] <MikeSmith> I'll look into to.. figure out where it is at least
  191. # [05:17] <MikeSmith> anyway, I have to step out for bit now. back later
  192. # [05:19] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I would be glad to chat about it sometime during the next week
  193. # [05:19] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm sending Alexey to the Unicode meeting
  194. # [05:19] <othermaciej> at least, to the part that's supposed to be relevant to IDNA
  195. # [05:21] <Hixie> I hope they fix the mess that is IDNA2008
  196. # [05:21] <Hixie> making it incompatible with IDNA2003 is just so stupid
  197. # [05:22] <othermaciej> yeah the meeting is all about how to fix the security and compatibility issues caused by IDNA2008 changes
  198. # [05:22] <othermaciej> which led both Alexey and me to think, "in that case, why are we changing it?"
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  227. # [09:35] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  228. # [09:35] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  256. # [11:32] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: I realized I wasn't really going to be able to do it quickly enough for the script to really be worthwhile, and didn't do it
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  258. # [11:34] <hsivonen> :-(
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  260. # [11:46] <hsivonen> whoa. google paper-spams me to advertise Web advertising
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  262. # [11:52] <erlehmann> ┌─┐
  263. # [11:52] <erlehmann> ┴─┴
  264. # [11:52] <erlehmann> ಠ_̼ರೃ
  265. # [11:52] <erlehmann> GENTLEMEN
  266. # [11:55] <jgraham> erlehmann: BTW the answer is both
  267. # [11:57] <erlehmann> jgraham, please elaborate on that in the context of the original-fake distinction
  268. # [11:59] <erlehmann> if the object you believed to me orininal turns out to be fake, does the object lose value? or does the idea of the object lose value and the objects value stays the same?
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  270. # [11:59] <erlehmann> s/to me/to be/g
  271. # [12:05] <jgraham> erlehmann: The idea of the object loses value (where value is the personal worth I abscribe to it) because in the case of art it is the concept that is valuble (in the case of e.g. an oven it is the object itself that is valuble since the idea of an oven is useless for making food)
  272. # [12:06] <erlehmann> got it. thanks
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  278. # [12:42] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should take the Google ad bait just to burn the 75 euros of "free" advertising credit on Validator.nu
  279. # [12:43] <hsivonen> there must be a catch, but I fail to see the catch
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  282. # [12:45] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: When I have more time I may look closer again
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  288. # [13:10] <Dashiva> hsivonen: You get addicted to the added traffic and start paying for it
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  300. # [13:40] <hsivonen> is http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML3/ the latest public MathML 3 draft?
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  304. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you mean WD? or editor's draft?
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  306. # [13:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: whatever is the latest. probably ED
  307. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm trying to look and see if I can find an ED
  308. # [13:51] <hsivonen> (it just seems useless to read WDs if EDs are public)
  309. # [13:51] * hsivonen tried to google with site:dev.w3.org but failed
  310. # [13:51] <zcorpan_> their WG page didn't seem to point to any EDs
  311. # [13:52] <hsivonen> ok
  312. # [13:52] <hsivonen> maybe I should just read the WD, then
  313. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: they don't use dev.w3.org
  314. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> but I can't find where elsewhere they store them
  315. # [13:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: OK. thanks
  316. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> but anyway, I checked their member-only list
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  318. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> there's no mention of an updated ED in their list archives
  319. # [13:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I don't want to read anything secret, because I want to be able to discuss stuff if I find something to comment on
  320. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah
  321. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> anyway, it does seem the WD is the latest
  322. # [13:58] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: you can discuss it in secret
  323. # [13:59] <jgraham> You could talk to yourself about it, for example
  324. # [13:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I want to be able to whine here on IRC without going to #secrettreehouse.
  325. # [14:03] <hsivonen> aargh. need to find a way to kill the "click and hold Dock icon for Exposé" feature on SL
  326. # [14:03] <hsivonen> I've now triggered Exposé a zilloin times on SL without wanting to trigger it
  327. # [14:04] <hsivonen> s/oin/ion/
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  329. # [14:05] <Rik`> hsivonen: i've never such an option
  330. # [14:05] <Rik`> and it's for your own good, they know what you want :)
  331. # [14:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: wait, how do you know about #secrettreehouse !?
  332. # [14:06] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: he's part of the cabal
  333. # [14:06] * MikeSmith shuts down #secrettreehouse and moves to #reallysecrettreehouse
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  338. # [14:20] <gsnedders|work> MikeSmith: Where's that? Same location in the Amazon as the previous one, just higher up that tree?
  339. # [14:26] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: If he said, it would hardly be secret
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  341. # [14:27] <jgraham> I thought Amazon keps all its treehouses in the Colouds these days
  342. # [14:27] <jgraham> *Clouds
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  344. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> gsnedders|work: the old #secrettreehouse was actually in Romania
  345. # [14:28] <gsnedders|work> Surely they aren't treehouses then any more?
  346. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> former Bush administration extraordinary-rendition site
  347. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> the thing about the Amazon was a ruse
  348. # [14:28] * gsnedders|work wonders whether to make some really obscure Twilight reference to the fact it used to be in Romania
  349. # [14:29] <gsnedders|work> I'd probably get it wrong though.
  350. # [14:30] * MikeSmith reads some e-mail and wonders, Why can't people just love me for who I am?
  351. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> the only person in this whole thing who is more lovable than me is gsnedders|work
  352. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> it's downhill from there
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  354. # [14:31] <gsnedders|work> Obviously I should lose all my old-world romanticism and become more like everyone else.
  355. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> we should have a ranking
  356. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> Que es mas encantador?
  357. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> ¿Senor gsnedders|work o Senor MikeSmith?
  358. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> dammit... 22:30 and I'm getting kicked of the Starbucks terrace at Ebisu station
  359. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> now have to find somewhere else to steal electricity
  360. # [14:36] <gsnedders|work> "There are no tears/Just pity and fear"
  361. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> that's a bright thought
  362. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> gsnedders|work: see, that's why people love you
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  365. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> whiskey
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  379. # [15:09] <Dashiva> I didn't see this one posted anywhere: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrlastweek/4014327734/
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  382. # [15:14] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: ::sigh::
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  398. # [15:53] <Dashiva> The ARIA discussions are so wobbly
  399. # [15:53] <Dashiva> On one hand, ARIA is supposed to be really good and useful. But on the other hand, there's a constant refrain of "We can't do that, because it would require tools to support ARIA"
  400. # [15:54] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=wakaba_@98.225.100.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  401. # [15:54] <Dashiva> You'd think supporting core accessibility technology would be a given for accessibility tools
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  405. # [16:05] <mikekelly> hi fans
  406. # [16:06] <mikekelly> what was the upshot of the discussion about http authorization - did anything change?
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  421. # [16:43] <gsnedders|work> Wow, it's dark outside.
  422. # [16:44] <gsnedders|work> Halloween must be upon us!
  423. # [16:44] <Phae> you up in the highlands?
  424. # [16:44] <gsnedders|work> Phae: Linköping
  425. # [16:44] <Phae> oh. i thought you were UK somewhere.
  426. # [16:44] <Phae> fair dos.
  427. # [16:44] <gsnedders|work> Phae: I have more sense than to be in the highlands over Halloween
  428. # [16:44] <Phae> :)
  429. # [16:44] <gsnedders|work> Phae: Until June I was at secondary school in St Andrews, where I'd lived me entire life. Then some idiot at Opera decided to give me a job. :P
  430. # [16:45] <gsnedders|work> (So, yes, I was in the UK somewhere)
  431. # [16:47] <Phae> ah, ok. that's what i thought
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  436. # [17:02] <TabAtkins> Hmm, I didn't realize that anchor links counted as "relative" for the purpose of <base>.
  437. # [17:02] <TabAtkins> That sort of sucks.
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  442. # [17:15] <AryehGregor> That is a pain.
  443. # [17:16] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Why would they be anything other than relative links?
  444. # [17:16] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Because they're anchor links, which in my mind is a third category. No page is named at all.
  445. # [17:16] <AryehGregor> The point is that clicking them shouldn't navigate to a different page if <base> is specified. That's unexpected.
  446. # [17:17] <AryehGregor> Of course, <base> is kind of evil anyway except for testing.
  447. # [17:17] <gsnedders|work> I don't think using it for testing makes it less evil, it's just there's no less evil way of doing the testing
  448. # [17:17] <TabAtkins> Heh, <base> is really useful to me, actually. It lets me rewrite the hierarchy of my site without caring about all the links in content.
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  457. # [17:54] * Philip` decides to append his initials to bug reports, so that he has a non-zero chance of finding them all again
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  487. # [19:09] * MikeSmith wonders if [pt] is a representation for the sound of spitting
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  490. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> e.g., "the script would run when the attribute was set, not when the element was ; appended" [sound of spitting]
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  493. # [19:16] <Philip`> Quite possibly
  494. # [19:17] <Philip`> It's useful as a unique string to search on, since not many other people spit on their bugs
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  496. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I'm going to start to put [pt] on my bugs
  497. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> or [ppppt]
  498. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> for extra "p"
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  564. # [22:54] <ap> hsivonen: is http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7059#c20 still what we need to do?
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  572. # [23:39] <ap> Hixie: DTD parsing is optional, but if a UA supports entities in normal parsed source (as we do), why not support them in innerHTML?
  573. # [23:39] <Hixie> you shouldn't support them in normal parsed source either, imho
  574. # [23:42] <ap> Hixie: besides, an entity could be declared in internal subset, which isn't optional to parse IIRC. if the spec just said that the DTD should be taken from target, both cases would work automatically
  575. # [23:42] <Hixie> i guess
  576. # [23:44] <ap> Hixie: not supporting &nbsp; and friends is not really an option for us, because they work in Firefox
  577. # [23:44] <Hixie> it bugs me that xml left this massive interop hole
  578. # [23:45] <Hixie> i don't really mind how we fill it
  579. # [23:45] <ap> Hixie: you could document what WebKit does :)
  580. # [23:45] <Hixie> but we need to make it clear what browsers and other XHTML UAs are to do
  581. # [23:45] <ap> Hixie: i.e. hardcode known XHTML DTDs and support character entities
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  583. # [23:45] <Hixie> i guess i have to bite the bullet and "profile" XML
  584. # [23:48] <Dashiva> That sounds like the author-friendly solution
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  586. # [23:49] <Hixie> ap: can you file a bug or send a mail or something asking me specifically to define how entities are to be parsed by XHTML5 UAs?
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  588. # [23:49] <Hixie> ap: (if you send mail, send it to public-html so that all the "you can't profile xml!!!!!" people see it and can raise a stink now rather than once i put it in the spec "without discussion")
  589. # [23:52] <ap> Hixie: ok
  590. # [23:52] <ttepasse> I declare: We need an appendix of the HTML5 parsing algorithm expressed in State Chart XML.
  591. # [23:52] <Hixie> ttepasse: if you can provide one (and instructions on how to keep it up to date when the spec changes), i'm happy to add it to the spec :-)
  592. # [23:53] <ttepasse> That sound's like work. I just like to see it for my personal amusement. ;)
  593. # [23:55] <Dashiva> I'm sure Philip` can drum something up eventually
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  596. # [23:55] <Dashiva> He's the go-to guy on weird stuff like that :)
  597. # [23:56] <ttepasse> Can he do EmotionML on HTML5?
  598. # [23:56] <ttepasse> (Sorry, catching up on W3C news ...)
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  600. # Session Close: Sat Oct 31 00:00:00 2009

The end :)