/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-11-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Nov 02 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <nicferrier> sorry, not expressing this very well
  4. # [00:00] <nicferrier> if the html5 form is authoritative
  5. # [00:00] <nicferrier> then it has to be wholly a resource
  6. # [00:00] <nicferrier> rather than being put together with bits of information from different places
  7. # [00:00] <nicferrier> it has to be an entity of itself
  8. # [00:01] <webben> how would the forms be made? hand edited? built with some sort of gui tool?
  9. # [00:01] <nicferrier> does it matter?
  10. # [00:01] <webben> a bit
  11. # [00:01] <webben> if I was going to hand edit such things, I'd prefer them kept in individual files.
  12. # [00:01] <nicferrier> an html5 form could be constructed by either hand or machine
  13. # [00:02] <nicferrier> hmm
  14. # [00:02] <webben> (just as I split out individual models, or templates, or testcases or whatever into their own individual files
  15. # [00:02] <nicferrier> a dynamic form would require a dynamic validator
  16. # [00:02] <nicferrier> dynamic meaning it depends entirely on the resource
  17. # [00:03] <nicferrier> consider a ticket editor that lets you edit all the tickets of a particular query
  18. # [00:03] <nicferrier> the http resource is the query
  19. # [00:03] <nicferrier> the representation is an html 5 entity with a single form
  20. # [00:03] <nicferrier> with fieldsets for each ticket
  21. # [00:03] <nicferrier> we can change a bunch of tickets to closed and then press submit
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  23. # [00:05] <webben> nicferrier: hmm. in that scenario aren't you generating the form from a model, and if not that, how?
  24. # [00:05] <nicferrier> webben: well, yes. tricky.
  25. # [00:07] <webben> nicferrier: I guess you could build a two way system. That is, a system that can take a form as input and generate models and validation rules; or take a model as input and generate forms and validation rules?
  26. # [00:08] <webben> that way, for example, the designers could hand you a form, you could express the form in HTML, the system would generate a model and validation rules.
  27. # [00:08] <nicferrier> is the only thing that would ever change for a dynamic form the number of fieldsets?
  28. # [00:09] <webben> No?
  29. # [00:09] <webben> Even if you consider bugzilla tickets, the form varies depending on the lifecycle stage of the ticket.
  30. # [00:10] <webben> e.g. if a ticket has been CLOSED you have to REOPEN it before you can ASSIGN it.
  31. # [00:10] <nicferrier> but those are different forms
  32. # [00:10] <nicferrier> true
  33. # [00:10] <webben> depends what you mean by different form I guess.
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  35. # [00:10] <webben> they are a little bit different
  36. # [00:10] <nicferrier> not different resources tho, you are right
  37. # [00:10] <nicferrier> in a RESTfull sense, same resource
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  56. # [01:45] <Hixie> what's the rule that hsivonen refers to regularly regarding how a technology fragments into the same number of independent components as there are working groups designing it?
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  58. # [01:46] <Hixie> Conway's Law, nevermind
  59. # [01:46] <Dashiva> Either that or n^2 interfaces :)
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  66. # [02:10] <Dashiva> How does the "new XML specs should not define named entities" jive with MathML?
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  184. # [13:42] <erlehmann> haha, randall munroe made i GIANT chart
  185. # [13:44] <jgraham> i?
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  187. # [13:45] <gsnedders|work> UnexpectedPronounException
  188. # [13:47] <jgraham> erlehmann: I assume you mean http://xkcd.com/657/large/ which is rather cool
  189. # [13:47] <erlehmann> jgraham, i and a are right next to each other
  190. # [13:48] <erlehmann> jgraham, now that he has proven he'll do huge pointless charts, you can ask him ;)
  191. # [13:48] <erlehmann> although i think we might just relabel the "primer" thingy :D
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  194. # [13:52] <jgraham> We should wait until CR though
  195. # [13:52] <jgraham> Or at least until there are a couple of shipping implementations
  196. # [13:52] <jgraham> Otherwise the chart will be quickly wrong
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  198. # [13:53] * gsnedders|work hopes the parser spec doesn't change too much from hereon to avoid the problems discussed last night
  199. # [13:54] * hsivonen wishes Opera didn't implement stuff like XML 1.1, xml:id, entities for RDFa doctype and entities for innerHTML setter in XML
  200. # [13:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: It would be nice if we could just make all XML applications recognise all HTML5 entities
  201. # [13:55] <hsivonen> instability in interop in this area consumes resources while IE just ignores it all and doesn't need to put in similar effort
  202. # [13:56] <hsivonen> jgraham: if we rock the boat like that, I think we should go full XML5
  203. # [13:56] <hsivonen> instead of rocking the boat several times
  204. # [13:59] * gsnedders|work wonders how come we support entities in XHTML+RDFa
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  206. # [13:59] <gsnedders|work> Do we just support entities in all application/xhtml+xml?
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  208. # [14:01] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: you don't
  209. # [14:02] <jgraham> hsivonen: A one-step XML5 would have the lowest cost / best benefits if people would go with it. However pragmatically it requires even more buy-in and so has a bigger risk of total failure
  210. # [14:02] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: We currently just use our HTML parser for innerHTML regardless of whether we're in XML, FYI
  211. # [14:02] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: That's why we support entities there
  212. # [14:02] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: oh. that's a sensible reason
  213. # [14:03] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: I guess we won't once we move to using XML parser for it
  214. # [14:03] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: would be useful to have these data points in the thread on the list
  215. # [14:05] * gsnedders|work emails about innerHTML
  216. # [14:05] <Philip`> data:application/xhtml+xml,<!DOCTYPE html SYSTEM "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd"><html><b>test</b></html>
  217. # [14:05] <Philip`> Opera puts HTML styles on those elements
  218. # [14:05] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p2102-ipbf6805marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  219. # [14:06] <Philip`> and puts them in the XHTML namespace
  220. # [14:06] <Philip`> but doesn't if you remove the doctype
  221. # [14:06] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: You filed a bug on that?
  222. # [14:06] <gsnedders|work> Oh, no, not you. But we have a bug on that.
  223. # [14:07] <gsnedders|work> It's because we act too much like a validating parser, obviously. Yay.
  224. # [14:08] * Parts: gsnedders|work (n=gsnedder@pat.se.opera.com) ("Oh noes, somebody set us up the bomb.")
  225. # [14:08] * Joins: gsnedders|work (n=gsnedder@pat.se.opera.com)
  226. # [14:09] <gsnedders|work> We imply namespaces for XHTML 1.0 (all three DTDs), XHTML 1.1, XHTML-MP 1.0 (as application/xhtml+xml) and WML 2 (application/xml+xml), but not for XHTML Basic 1.0 and 1.1 and XHTML-MP 1.2
  227. # [14:09] <zcorpan_> do we support entities in basic, 1.1 and mp?
  228. # [14:10] <gsnedders|work> Dunno. I'm just reading the bug report. :)
  229. # [14:11] <Philip`> I hypothesise that you support entities/etc if the public id is one of:
  230. # [14:11] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan_: Comment by, uh, zcorpan_imples we do :)
  231. # [14:11] <Philip`> -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Frameset//EN -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN -//W3C//DTD SVG 1.1//EN -//W3C//DTD SVG 1.1 Basic//EN -//W3C//DTD SVG 1.1 Tiny//EN -//W3C//DTD SVG 1.0//EN
  232. # [14:11] <Philip`> or the system id is one of:
  233. # [14:11] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11-flat.dtd http://www.wapforum.org/DTD/xhtml-mobile10-flat.dtd http://www.wapforum.org/DTD/wml_1_1.dtd http://www.wapforum.org/DTD/wml12.dtd http://www.wapforum.org/DTD/wml13.dtd http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11-flat.dtd http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11-basic.dtd http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11-tiny.dtd http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG10/DTD/s
  234. # [14:12] * Philip` curses truncation
  235. # [14:12] <zcorpan_> gsnedders|work: ok
  236. # [14:12] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: Where are you looking?
  237. # [14:12] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG10/DTD/svg10.dtd http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd http://www.wapforum.org/DTD/wml20.dtd http://www.wapforum.org/DTD/xhtml-mobile10.dtd
  238. # [14:12] <Philip`> though I could be wrong, but some quick testing seems to agree with that list
  239. # [14:12] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: "strings opera"
  240. # [14:13] <gsnedders|work> "strings opera"?
  241. # [14:13] <Philip`> http://unixhelp.ed.ac.uk/CGI/man-cgi?strings
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  243. # [14:13] <gsnedders|work> Ah
  244. # [14:14] * zcorpan_ tries subscribing to commit-watchers but doesn't get a confirmation email
  245. # [14:15] <Philip`> Hmm, seemingly not the SVG ones
  246. # [14:15] <zcorpan_> oh wait
  247. # [14:15] <Philip`> nor the WML 1.* ones
  248. # [14:15] <zcorpan_> i did get confirmation email
  249. # [14:15] <Philip`> (I guess those trigger different special behaviours)
  250. # [14:16] <erlehmann> i'm trying to get german parliamentary video channel techs to consider moving from embedded flash movies to <video> with flash fallback. anyone here has tips for doing this?
  251. # [14:17] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: We imply for SVG, and that's unlikely to change (due to content deployed when Adobe SVG Viewer didn't require it)
  252. # [14:17] <zcorpan_> erlehmann: tips for convincing them or tips for implementing it?
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  255. # [14:19] <erlehmann> zcorpan_, its about convincing. i already met the woman in charge at a "how to make government data more open" session, she referred me to the techs.
  256. # [14:20] <Philip`> erlehmann: Why would it be worthwhile for them to switch?
  257. # [14:21] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@140.247.133.124)
  258. # [14:25] <gsnedders|work> "RAW DATA NOW"?
  259. # [14:25] <erlehmann> gsnedders|work, something like that.
  260. # [14:27] <gsnedders|work> Then remember the RDF graphs too.
  261. # [14:28] <erlehmann> Philip`, the government has its own data in some encumbered formats. we get laws as untagged PDF, videos as flash. in the end, it's all about accessability.
  262. # [14:28] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@140.247.133.124) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  263. # [14:28] <erlehmann> but i don't really know how to deal with government types
  264. # [14:29] * gsnedders|work wouldn't call PDF encumbered, as there are plenty of readers and there is an open standard
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  266. # [14:29] <gsnedders|work> erlehmann: I guess the first thing you need to work out is whether it is the government or whether it is civil servants making the decisions
  267. # [14:30] <erlehmann> gsnedders|work, the decision is one of bureaucracy
  268. # [14:30] <gsnedders|work> erlehmann: But who made the decision to use the formats currently used?
  269. # [14:30] <gsnedders|work> (This does have a real affect about how to go about getting things done)
  270. # [14:31] <erlehmann> interesting question.
  271. # [14:32] <gsnedders|work> You can _try_ and get civil servants (or rather, more generally, government officials) to change things, but they will tend to take the solution that is the least work for them (and may have their own agenda).
  272. # [14:32] <Philip`> erlehmann: If the idea is just about unencumbered formats, it sounds like they could just provide a download link to an .ogv or .mp4 file, and there's no need to mess around with using <video>
  273. # [14:32] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: AIUI the problem with pdf is not that it is encumbered per-se it is that extracting information is typically very difficult
  274. # [14:33] <gsnedders|work> If that fails, you have to push those who the non-elected officials are meant to obey
  275. # [14:33] <gsnedders|work> It's all one big ball-game basically
  276. # [14:33] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: Indeed, but it's certainly got quite a lot better
  277. # [14:34] <erlehmann> Philip`, valid response. but if you have the encoded files, <video> is simple
  278. # [14:34] <erlehmann> and you can always have flash fallback
  279. # [14:35] <Philip`> I guess the simpleness depends on how well the fallback works in practice, and how well <video> works in practice, and how easy it is to copy-and-paste the right markup for it
  280. # [14:35] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: "better" in the sense that it is now theoretically possible to produce PDF files in which getting the text out isn't a major undertaking?
  281. # [14:35] <jgraham> It doesn't really count as better unless people actually do it
  282. # [14:35] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: I think it is easier once you have a parsed copy of the file now
  283. # [14:36] * Philip` wishes he could copy-and-paste text from PDFs without getting "fi" ligatures as single characters
  284. # [14:36] <jgraham> and having a format where it is easier to do the wrong thing than the right thing means that people will typicalloy do the wrong thing even if there are laws and stuff saying you should do the right thing
  285. # [14:37] <erlehmann> gsnedders|work, as far as i know the head of that thingy came to the open government session out of personal interest. she readily admitted that some systems are barely usable and was looking for input from local hackers and parliamentary informaticians.
  286. # [14:37] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: eaiser than what? Also what do you mean "parsed copy of the file"?
  287. # [14:37] <erlehmann> Philip`, technical things can be solved easily. its about getting the process into motion
  288. # [14:37] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: You convert the PDF file to an internal representation before drawing.
  289. # [14:38] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: Easier than it used to be
  290. # [14:38] <gsnedders|work> (I could be wrong, I've not looked that much at text extraction)
  291. # [14:38] * Parts: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186)
  292. # [14:38] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Easier than it used to be for exactly the same input that was used before, or easier for new inputs that use new features?
  293. # [14:38] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: The latter, I think.
  294. # [14:40] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: That is exactly the problem. If these documents are being produced by some person using word or whatever and "export to pdf" does the wrong thing regardless of how they wrote the document, you have already lost because all the regulation in the world won't stop untagged documents getting produced
  295. # [14:40] <jgraham> erm
  296. # [14:41] <jgraham> by "regardless" I think I mean something quite unlike regardless
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  298. # [14:41] <erlehmann> jgraham, our administration has secretaries with word using the print function. absolutely hatable, if there are two columns
  299. # [14:42] <jgraham> Why I'm trying to say is that it has to work for any authoring style, not just for people who use e.g. the styles and formatting feature
  300. # [14:42] <jgraham> (which is approximately no-one)
  301. # [14:42] <Philip`> jgraham: "irregardless"?
  302. # [14:43] <jgraham> iirespective
  303. # [14:43] <jgraham> but with the right number of each letter
  304. # [14:43] <jgraham> in the right order
  305. # [14:45] <jgraham> No that's still not right
  306. # [14:45] <jgraham> Oh dear
  307. # [14:46] <gsnedders|work> erlehmann: As I understand it, they're meant to be moving away from Word, at least :P
  308. # [14:46] <Philip`> How can it not be right when you're allowing any combination of any letters?
  309. # [14:47] <Philip`> unless it's something that can only be expressed through gestures
  310. # [14:47] <erlehmann> gsnedders|work, i can't see that happen.
  311. # [14:48] <gsnedders|work> erlehmann: Several ministries have moved away from Word already, to my knowledge
  312. # [14:48] <Philip`> What have they moved to?
  313. # [14:48] <gsnedders|work> OpenOffice :P
  314. # [14:48] <Philip`> Oh, not Emacs? :-(
  315. # [14:48] <erlehmann> its nanowrimo
  316. # [14:48] <erlehmann> use nano(1)
  317. # [14:48] <erlehmann> the ministry of the interior is big with free software, but they are reviled almost universally in tech circles
  318. # [14:49] <erlehmann> also some cities have switched
  319. # [14:49] * Philip` likes nano, it's the only text editor he can understand how to use
  320. # [14:49] <erlehmann> but i, as a consumer of data, am more interested in free formats
  321. # [14:49] <workmad3> Philip`: I feel like that too :)
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  323. # [15:03] <jgraham> Understanding your text editor is overrated. The only real criterion is that pressing tab should produce a reasonable indentation much of the time. And not, I repeat not, try to insert a tab character. Ever.
  324. # [15:04] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: afaict opera doesn't support the xhtml+rdfa doctype
  325. # [15:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ok. I guess I should test every allegation myself without trusting anything that has been said in the thread. sorry.
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  362. # [16:25] <Philip`> "once we start to add predefined entities, where do we stop?" - we stop once we've reached XML5
  363. # [16:26] <hsivonen> how do we stop the MathML folks from minting more and more entities?
  364. # [16:27] <jgraham> More to the point who thought it was a good idea to let validators accept a superset of wht UAs accepted in the first place?
  365. # [16:27] * Quits: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@garage.upstruct.com) (Success)
  366. # [16:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: you'll find that V.nu accepts a subset by default
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  368. # [16:29] <hsivonen> doing a hg clone where the target is an AFP share is insanely slow
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  371. # [16:30] <Dashiva> I don't understand this entity stuff at all. What is the rationale for allowing documents to change just depending on whether the parser validates or not?
  372. # [16:30] <Philip`> I don't like how Sourceforge's current design consists almost entirely of colours with >50% brightness, which look indistinguishable from white when I view my monitor from a slight angle
  373. # [16:30] <jgraham> hsivonen: I'm far from surprised that you are doing something sane
  374. # [16:30] <Dashiva> It seems like it's just asking for interop failures
  375. # [16:31] <jgraham> Dashiva: Yes
  376. # [16:31] <Dashiva> At least with draconiainness there was a _perceived_ benefit
  377. # [16:32] <Philip`> Dashiva: Not at all - it ensures your content has maximum interoperability with the specification
  378. # [16:32] <hsivonen> Dashiva: optional features in specs are the collection of unresolved disputes that the WG threw over the fence for the entire world to deal with
  379. # [16:33] <hsivonen> next time I want to back up a hg repo to AFP I'll use tar or something
  380. # [16:33] <Dashiva> Related, what is the term for a document using invalid entities? It's still well-formed, I assume
  381. # [16:34] <hsivonen> Dashiva: well-formedness depends on whether the parser processed external entities
  382. # [16:34] * Quits: fishd_ (n=darin@nat/google/x-07db14460ce6ca6c) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  383. # [16:35] <Dashiva> So a validating parser can make a non-well-formed document into a well-formed one
  384. # [16:35] <Dashiva> *?
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  387. # [16:37] <gsnedders|work> What WFC depends upon whether it is validating or not?
  388. # [16:37] <gsnedders|work> For entities, undeclared entities are a well-formedness error iff standalone='yes'
  389. # [16:37] <gsnedders|work> (when dealing with a non-validating processor)
  390. # [16:39] <Dashiva> I think I was asking if <root>&bogus;</root> is well-formed or not
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  392. # [16:39] * eric_carlson_ is now known as eric_carlson
  393. # [16:40] <gsnedders|work> It is well-formed for a non-validating parser, not for a validating one
  394. # [16:41] <Philip`> The definition of well-formedness appears to be just based on the textual object, not the parser
  395. # [16:41] <gsnedders|work> Indeed
  396. # [16:41] <gsnedders|work> So that is not well-formed, but only a validating parser will notice it is not
  397. # [16:42] <Dashiva> So that's not even an XML document
  398. # [16:42] <gsnedders|work> Maybe a non-validating one would because it hasn't got a DTD
  399. # [16:43] <gsnedders|work> That is not well-formed, so all UAs will throw a fatal error
  400. # [16:43] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Why is a well-formedness error?
  401. # [16:43] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: Well-formedness constraint: Entity Declared
  402. # [16:43] <Philip`> I only see relevant things mentioned as validity constraints
  403. # [16:44] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  404. # [16:45] <Dashiva> But if there was a DTD with an external entity declaration... then it would become valid _only_ in validating parsers?
  405. # [16:45] <gsnedders|work> No, the document would be valid.
  406. # [16:45] <Dashiva> Well-formed, I mean
  407. # [16:46] <gsnedders|work> That document is always not well-formed
  408. # [16:46] <gsnedders|work> That's wrong
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  410. # [16:46] <gsnedders|work> Yes, it would then always be valid if the external DTD defined &bogus; IIRC
  411. # [16:47] <Dashiva> But it would look non-well-formed to a non-validating parser
  412. # [16:47] <Dashiva> Should it not then refuse to process it?
  413. # [16:47] <gsnedders|work> No, it would look well-formed to a non-validating parser
  414. # [16:47] <gsnedders|work> It just has an unknown entity
  415. # [16:47] <Dashiva> But you said that was a well-formedness requirement earlier?
  416. # [16:47] <gsnedders|work> It isn't.
  417. # [16:48] <gsnedders|work> I was wrong
  418. # [16:48] <Dashiva> Oh, okay
  419. # [16:49] <gsnedders|work> "Certain well-formedness errors, specifically those that require reading external entities, may fail to be detected by a non-validating processor. Examples include the constraints entitled Entity Declared, Parsed Entity, and No Recursion, as well as some of the cases described as forbidden in 4.4 XML Processor Treatment of Entities and References."
  420. # [16:49] * Joins: yoshu_ (n=josh@174-18-196-88.tcso.qwest.net)
  421. # [16:49] <rollandburn> i wonder if someone could give some advice.... I am tasked with creating an overview of our company's accessibility policies and I have done a bit of research on WAI and WCAG2.0 which is apparently the standard to which one should hold their site against... the problem is that I am coming across a lot of conflicting info about the real-world usefulness or attainability of WCAG2.0 and am not...
  422. # [16:49] <rollandburn> ...sure if there is another standard or body of guidelines that would be better suited to modern developers
  423. # [16:50] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: So what are you expected to do in those cases?
  424. # [16:50] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: Your choice.
  425. # [16:50] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@h79-138-34-16.dynamic.se.alltele.net)
  426. # [16:50] <jgraham> Seriously?
  427. # [16:50] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: Yeah.
  428. # [16:50] <jgraham> sigh
  429. # [16:50] <Dashiva> XML is great
  430. # [16:51] <Dashiva> Are there any well-known apps or similar that use validating parsers?
  431. # [16:51] <gsnedders|work> Dashiva: http://validator.w3.org is well-known, I guess.
  432. # [16:51] <Philip`> Dashiva: All the ones that hammer w3.org for DTDs
  433. # [16:51] <rollandburn> i guess if I nutshell that huge question - is there anything more recognized or applicable than WCAG2.0 ?
  434. # [16:51] <jgraham> rollandburn: This is probably the wrong place to ask. However WCAG has a techniques document with some practical advice. It is not allup to date wrt HTML5 and other new technologies though
  435. # [16:52] <Philip`> Dashiva: and the ones that broke when Netscape took down the RSS DTD
  436. # [16:52] <Philip`> I guess
  437. # [16:52] <Dashiva> Philip`: So basically validators and bad ideas? :)
  438. # [16:53] <rollandburn> yes ok, not really looking for techniques so much as confirmation that as far as accessibility is concerned WCAG is God
  439. # [16:53] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: No, it's the informative documents that relate to HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0 that aren't up to date
  440. # [16:53] <Dashiva> rollandburn: Some people consider it god. Not everyone.
  441. # [16:53] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: Yeah Techniques for WCAG 2.0 is one such document
  442. # [16:53] <rollandburn> ok, are there other guidelines that are similar
  443. # [16:53] <jgraham> Which is the one I meant
  444. # [16:54] <Philip`> Dashiva: I'm not personally aware of any applications that use validating parsers for good reasons
  445. # [16:54] <Dashiva> Sounds like a way forward
  446. # [16:54] <gsnedders|work> But for XHTML 1.0 and RSS (0.91-Netscape) you need to cope with entities.
  447. # [16:54] <Philip`> Dashiva: though partly that's because I don't care about XML except when I can break it, so there might be good uses somewhere
  448. # [16:54] <jgraham> rollandburn: I don't know if there are other documents. It's more that some of the advice given by WCAG may be misguided or the documents may be too hard to read
  449. # [16:54] <Dashiva> DTDs are too weak for real validation anyhow, so just discard the validating parser concept in XML5?
  450. # [16:55] * Joins: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@102.80-202-87.nextgentel.com)
  451. # [16:55] <gsnedders|work> Dashiva: Yeah, just totally get rid of DTDs.
  452. # [16:55] * Quits: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@102.80-202-87.nextgentel.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  453. # [16:55] <rollandburn> oh ok, i'm not finding it hard to read... just never got into following any 'guideline' in order to 'conform' before, wanted to make sure I was following the right lead
  454. # [16:55] <rollandburn> thanks!
  455. # [16:55] * Joins: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@p5B017BBD.dip.t-dialin.net)
  456. # [16:55] <rollandburn> (btw... what is the main focus of this channel?)
  457. # [16:55] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@h79-138-34-16.dynamic.se.alltele.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  458. # [16:56] <Philip`> Dashiva: What about all the people who use DTDs for default attribute values, or for localisation of text in XML files?
  459. # [16:56] * Joins: murr5y (n=murray@103.84-49-64.nextgentel.com)
  460. # [16:57] <Philip`> DTDs aren't necessarily a good solution for those things, but people rely on them in certain situations and wouldn't be happy if XML5 didn't support that
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  463. # [16:57] * yoshu_ is now known as yoshu
  464. # [16:57] <rollandburn> got it...the development of HTML and APIs needed for Web applications.
  465. # [16:57] <Dashiva> Philip`: So they can make their content break in non-validating parsers?
  466. # [16:57] <rollandburn> thanks,,,, cya
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  470. # [16:58] <Philip`> Dashiva: So they can use off-the-shelf XML parsers (and validators and editing tools etc) for application-specific data files where interoperability isn't so important and they know they're using a validating parser themselves
  471. # [16:58] <gsnedders|work> Dashiva: Indeed. The Universal Feed Parser docs are an example of such a thing (they are written in DocBook, and rely upon external DTDs, but are distributed as HTML/PDF/etc.)
  472. # [16:58] <Dashiva> Philip`: Then they can just keep using a validating XML1 parser?
  473. # [16:59] <Philip`> Dashiva: And all XML parser developers would have to maintain two parallel versions or modes of operation?
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  477. # [17:00] <Philip`> and everyone wanting to use an XML parser would have to learn about and understand the difference and make a reasoned choice?
  478. # [17:00] <Dashiva> No, they'd just use XML5
  479. # [17:00] <Dashiva> Just like we don't expect people to make a reasoned choice between HTML5 and SGML
  480. # [17:00] <gsnedders|work> But SGML is awesome!
  481. # [17:01] <Dashiva> And I'm sure validating XML parsers are awesome too
  482. # [17:01] <Philip`> Dashiva: There aren't a billion tempting SGML tools they could pick up and use without realising it was obsolete
  483. # [17:02] <Dashiva> There are plenty of tagsoup libs for HTML4, though
  484. # [17:03] <Philip`> Indeed
  485. # [17:03] <Philip`> and lots of people use them
  486. # [17:03] <Philip`> and it's likely to be hard to stop people from using them
  487. # [17:03] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@67.218.109.30)
  488. # [17:03] <Philip`> and it's not likely that Python will deprecate and remove sgmllib any time soon
  489. # [17:03] <Dashiva> We don't have to stop them, they'll stop themselves as the web corpus gradually becomes influenced by HTML5
  490. # [17:04] <Philip`> In the meantime it causes confusion and uninteroperability when people unintentionally choose the older version instead of the newer version, and means there's twice as much code to maintain
  491. # [17:05] <jgraham> Philip`: Presumably there were once lots of SGML tools and people who had invested in the SGML toolchain. But it was still worthwhile to simplfy out the good bits and make XML
  492. # [17:06] <jgraham> Now seems like a good time to do the same with XML with a particular focus on the web
  493. # [17:06] <Philip`> so it seems it'd be a better approach in many ways if backward compatibility was not lost and the old tools were simply upgraded to support the new spec, without having to maintain the old ones too
  494. # [17:06] <Dashiva> You can't maintain backwards compatability when one of the changes is removing a misfeature
  495. # [17:06] <Philip`> You can keep the misfeature
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  497. # [17:07] <Dashiva> That's perpetuating the problem, rather than suffering a transitory period
  498. # [17:07] <jgraham> Of course. But then we would still have SGML
  499. # [17:07] <Philip`> Dashiva: You sound like you should be in the XHTML2 WG
  500. # [17:07] <jgraham> The question is "is there a path from here to there"?
  501. # [17:07] * Quits: yoshu (n=josh@174-18-196-88.tcso.qwest.net)
  502. # [17:08] <Dashiva> Philip`: No, they wanted to change interoperable content
  503. # [17:08] <Dashiva> This is about content that's non-interoperable to begin with
  504. # [17:08] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: you are right. the text in "Include if Validating" isn't labeled as a WFC even though implementations treat it as such
  505. # [17:08] <jgraham> We haven't discovered a path away from HTML yet even though people have tried
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  507. # [17:08] <Dashiva> Your own example specified that, "application-specific data files where interoperability isn't so important"
  508. # [17:08] <Philip`> Dashiva: They wanted a transitory period of suffering rather than perpetuating the problem
  509. # [17:09] <Philip`> so you'd fit in just fine :-)
  510. # [17:09] <Dashiva> Yeah, and so did the people who introduced two-button mice
  511. # [17:09] <Dashiva> Methinks you're overreaching :)
  512. # [17:09] <jgraham> But there might be a path away from XHTML to XML5 if you could specify XML5 so that existing implementations wouldn't break too many XHTML pages if they moved to having just XML5 parsers
  513. # [17:11] * Joins: smaug (n=chatzill@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  514. # [17:11] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#wf-entdeclared isn't exactly easy to read
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  516. # [17:12] <gsnedders|work> Most of the XML spec when it comes to entities isn't exactly easy to read.
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  519. # [17:15] * Philip` inherited some code which used Xerces and DTDs specifying default attribute values, but got so fed up with Xerces after a few years that he just rewrote it to use libxml2 instead and dropped all the DTDs, which was a good move
  520. # [17:15] <hsivonen> according to Tim Bray's annotated XML spec, browsers weren't supposed to read DTDs
  521. # [17:16] <Philip`> Why did browsers start doing this magical entity-mapping thing?
  522. # [17:16] <Philip`> Were there original browsers that did load DTDs, and hence content that relied on it?
  523. # [17:16] <gsnedders|work> Because there was a bug report.
  524. # [17:17] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'd expect the blame to go to a MathML-motivated bug filed against Gecko
  525. # [17:17] <Philip`> So it was just somebody trying to help users write pages?
  526. # [17:17] <Dashiva> "The validator says &nbsp; is valid"
  527. # [17:17] <Dashiva> Something like that?
  528. # [17:18] <jgraham> Not having entities in MathML is a big deal
  529. # [17:18] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  530. # [17:19] <jgraham> It changes it from "difficult to hand author"
  531. # [17:19] <jgraham> to "impossible to hand author"
  532. # [17:19] <hsivonen> whoa. looks like I have been part of the problem: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113400
  533. # [17:19] <gsnedders|work> Blatantly you just need a keyboard will all the various mathematical symbols on it
  534. # [17:19] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12)
  535. # [17:20] <Dashiva> Skeletons in the closet
  536. # [17:20] <hsivonen> Sorry.
  537. # [17:20] <erlehmann> jgraham, is that so? can't i just use UTF8?
  538. # [17:21] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@h79-138-34-16.dynamic.se.alltele.net)
  539. # [17:21] <erlehmann> i mean i have αζγ all right here on my mod4
  540. # [17:21] <erlehmann> or what is it that not having entities forbids
  541. # [17:21] <gsnedders|work> erlehmann: How do you type the symbol for union of two sets?
  542. # [17:21] <jgraham> erlehmann: Of course. But good luck finding a convenient way to enter the utf-8 codepoint for counterclockwise contour integral
  543. # [17:21] <gsnedders|work> Or do you know the Unicode codepoint and can use numeric entities?
  544. # [17:21] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work, jgraham: the world needs a math IME
  545. # [17:21] <hsivonen> something like what Mathematica has on the app layer
  546. # [17:21] <gsnedders|work> It's called LaTeX.
  547. # [17:22] <jgraham> hsivonen: That probably exists. But it is a deficiency in the technology if it screws up something that TeX got right years ago
  548. # [17:22] <Philip`> http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/dmkeyboard.jpg
  549. # [17:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: didn't TeX get just about everything right except the Rule of Least Power?
  550. # [17:23] <jgraham> (actually I'm pretty sure LaTeX-IME exists so you can write \cccint or whatever it happens to be and get the right symbol)
  551. # [17:23] <erlehmann> gsnedders|work, i use lyx :p
  552. # [17:23] <Philip`> Seems they'd solved the problem back in 1978
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  554. # [17:23] <Dashiva> I suppose if everyone starts using keyboards with programmable LED keys
  555. # [17:24] <Philip`> http://www-lipn.univ-paris13.fr/~saiu/apl-keyboard/apl-keyboard-2.jpg is the lower-tech form of programmable keys
  556. # [17:24] <jgraham> hsivonen: Possibly it sacrified on the rule of least power in order to get everything else right
  557. # [17:24] <Dashiva> I can't speak for TeX, but latex manages to get all kinds of things wrong
  558. # [17:25] <jgraham> Yeah it's true that "everything" is a big overstatement
  559. # [17:25] <jgraham> but simple things tend to be simple and complex things are often possible
  560. # [17:25] <erlehmann> this helps http://detexify.kirelabs.org/classify.html
  561. # [17:27] <Dashiva> I suspect there's more copypaste content in latex than in HTML, even :)
  562. # [17:27] <Philip`> jgraham: Sounds like Perl's design principle
  563. # [17:27] <erlehmann> jgraham, i ener unicode codepoints with holding shift + strg + u and then input the number, works fine ∳
  564. # [17:28] <Philip`> s//one of/; s//s/
  565. # [17:28] * Quits: annevk2 (n=annevk@72-254-112-194.client.stsn.net)
  566. # [17:28] <Philip`> erlehmann: The hard part is knowing the number
  567. # [17:29] <erlehmann> Philip`, now that is taken of. i looked it up and now i can produce counterclockwise countour integrals
  568. # [17:29] <erlehmann> its 2233 :)
  569. # [17:29] <erlehmann> U+2233
  570. # [17:29] <Philip`> I suppose you can't use MathML entities without looking them up first, but at least you've got a hope of remembering them for the next few days
  571. # [17:29] <erlehmann> thats what i mean. also, it is called “ANTICLOCKWISE”
  572. # [17:29] <erlehmann> weird
  573. # [17:29] <Philip`> Why is that weird?
  574. # [17:30] <Philip`> Seems like proper English to me
  575. # [17:30] <erlehmann> i would say counterclockwise
  576. # [17:30] <Philip`> Weird
  577. # [17:30] <erlehmann> but i am by no means a native speaker
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  579. # [17:31] <hsivonen> is anti-clockwise an en-GB thing?
  580. # [17:31] <Philip`> Sadly most Americans aren't native speakers either and so they all make the same mistake :-(
  581. # [17:31] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: Yes
  582. # [17:31] * hsivonen learned "counter-clockwise"
  583. # [17:32] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: Then you don't speak proper English.
  584. # [17:32] * gsnedders|work hides
  585. # [17:33] <erlehmann> gentlemen
  586. # [17:33] * Joins: darobin (n=robin@72-254-116-7.client.stsn.net)
  587. # [17:34] <erlehmann> ┌─┐
  588. # [17:34] <erlehmann> ┴─┴
  589. # [17:34] <erlehmann> ಠ_̼ರೃ
  590. # [17:34] <erlehmann> teatime !!
  591. # [17:34] <gsnedders|work> What?
  592. # [17:34] * gsnedders|work shakes head
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  594. # [17:35] * erlehmann is gonna help himself to some tea
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  597. # [17:36] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: I believe it is merely japes
  598. # [17:36] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@BAE24f5.bae.pppool.de)
  599. # [17:36] <zcorpan_> "I only hope it doesn't cause problems later on." - hsivonen in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113400
  600. # [17:37] <gsnedders|work> Truth hurts.
  601. # [17:40] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: I *love* those faces. They're so awesome.
  602. # [17:43] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@72-254-82-225.client.stsn.net)
  603. # [17:44] * Philip` wonders if they would be more awesome if his font had the right glyphs
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  606. # [17:47] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, i like how different charsets breed different smilie styles, like ヽ(｀Д´)ﾉ
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  611. # [17:52] <Philip`> http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey2/ - "The vast majority of respondents updated their primary screen reader within the previous year" - that sounds more positive than the impression I've often got about adoption rate
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  613. # [17:55] <jgraham> Philip`: Maybe the majority of screenreader users don't take geeky surveys
  614. # [17:56] <jgraham> (note the heavy weighting to self-reporting as advanced users)
  615. # [17:59] <jgraham> Seems like these screenreader users generally don't like longdesc
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  617. # [18:01] <jgraham> And we should put much less time into markup for tables and much more time into markup for captchas or their replacement
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  619. # [18:01] <Philip`> I don't think CAPTCHAs are a markup problem
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  621. # [18:03] <jgraham> Well nor do I really but it's not clear that there is nothing that could be done at the paltform level to at least make the experience more bearable
  622. # [18:03] * jgraham hates captchas and he can see them
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  625. # [18:04] <Philip`> (The problem is the server wants to verify the client has certain capabilities which are closely correlated with being a human, but humans are sufficiently diverse that the correlation can never be really good)
  626. # [18:04] <jgraham> well specifically those silly "here is some hard to read text" ones
  627. # [18:05] <Philip`> (and the server has to err on the side of false negatives, because if it allows any false positives then a million people will start exploiting the false positive they found)
  628. # [18:05] <Philip`> ((or one person a million times))
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  700. # [20:59] * Joins: bugfux (n=bugfux@209-234-175-134.static.twtelecom.net)
  701. # [21:00] <bugfux> I have some lines that are stroked and they are being drawn in front of some arcs (even though the arcs are drawn last)
  702. # [21:00] <bugfux> any way I can force the arcs to the front
  703. # [21:01] <Philip`> bugfux: Hmm, not quite sure what you mean
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  705. # [21:01] <Philip`> Whatever's drawn last ought to appear in the front
  706. # [21:02] <bugfux> wait what defines drawn
  707. # [21:02] <Philip`> The stroke()/fill() calls
  708. # [21:02] <Philip`> (which draw everything since the last beginPath())
  709. # [21:02] <bugfux> yeah okay so I am definately filling the arcs last because they are filled on a hover event
  710. # [21:02] <bugfux> and all the lines are drawn on render
  711. # [21:03] <bugfux> does restore() count as a draw?
  712. # [21:03] <Philip`> restore() does not affect the current path in any way
  713. # [21:03] <Philip`> beginPath is the only way to start a new path
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  715. # [21:04] <bugfux> hmm okay
  716. # [21:04] <Philip`> Do you have an example of code that demonstrates the problem?
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  721. # [21:06] <bugfux> i mean its not much help because it just shows the library
  722. # [21:06] <bugfux> http://danvk.org/dygraphs/tests/grid_dot.html
  723. # [21:06] <bugfux> but that higlights the problem
  724. # [21:06] <bugfux> those arcs are drawn on mouseover
  725. # [21:06] <bugfux> yet they are drawn behind almost everything
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  728. # [21:09] <Philip`> bugfux: There are two <canvas>es there
  729. # [21:09] <bugfux> oh really?
  730. # [21:09] <Philip`> and the graph is drawn on the second one, and the mouseover circles are drawn on the first one
  731. # [21:09] <bugfux> oh crap, your awesome
  732. # [21:09] * Philip` just looked at it in Firebug :-)
  733. # [21:09] <bugfux> no i know, but i didnt even think of htat
  734. # [21:10] <bugfux> and I have been knee deep in this library for days
  735. # [21:12] <bugfux> can I give a canvas a z-index or does that make it blow up
  736. # [21:13] <Philip`> That ought to work the same as with any other element
  737. # [21:14] <bugfux> hmm it seems to mess with hover nad stuff
  738. # [21:14] <bugfux> oh well
  739. # [21:15] * lmorchard is now known as lmorchard|away
  740. # [21:15] <Philip`> Ah, yes, that might happen
  741. # [21:16] * Philip` doesn't know if there's a way to avoid that being a problem
  742. # [21:16] <Philip`> (other than catching mouse events on the foremost object)
  743. # [21:21] <bugfux> hmmm
  744. # [21:21] <bugfux> so if i draw the canvas with the dots first, it will always be on the bottom, correct?
  745. # [21:25] <Philip`> If you don't change z-index, then yes
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  786. # [22:53] * gsnedders does like how HTML5 is off-topic in #html
  787. # [22:53] <gsnedders> There's something badly wrong with that.
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  800. # [23:10] <jarib> anyone reading the implementors list? just realized i made the first post in months
  801. # [23:11] <MikeSmith> jarib: yeah, people do read that list
  802. # [23:11] <Philip`> I'm subscribed to it, but it's so low-traffic that I've never even bothered setting up any mail filters for it
  803. # [23:11] <jarib> ah, that's a good thing then :)
  804. # [23:13] * Joins: sylvaing (n=sylvaing@72-254-116-25.client.stsn.net)
  805. # [23:14] <gsnedders> jarib: Most browsers automatically create the actual interface code from IDL (though normally each in their own proprietary format) then have the actual implementation of the interface separate
  806. # [23:15] <gsnedders> On a somewhat related note, is Watir 2.0 going to be API compatible with prior releases?
  807. # [23:15] <jarib> probably not 100%
  808. # [23:16] <gsnedders> (I ask that primarily with Opera hat on with a view of OperaWatir)
  809. # [23:16] <jarib> ah
  810. # [23:17] <jarib> it'll be mostly compatible, but more "compliant" if my IDL idea works out
  811. # [23:17] <jarib> i met Deniz from Opera at GTAC
  812. # [23:17] <jarib> Watir 2.0 will be built on WebDriver
  813. # [23:18] <gsnedders> Yeah, he's the guy who does most of the work on OperaWatir, so he probably has more clue than me :P
  814. # [23:18] <jarib> we're meeting in Oslo soon to work on the ruby bindings
  815. # [23:18] <jarib> but you're saying I could find IDLs in the browsers?
  816. # [23:19] <jarib> that's interesting
  817. # [23:19] <jarib> perhaps I should ask Deniz about this
  818. # [23:20] <gsnedders> At least in their codebase, it's gone before it even gets compiled
  819. # [23:20] <jarib> i'll look into that, thanks
  820. # [23:21] <gsnedders> WebIDL even has a defined mapping to Java :P
  821. # [23:22] <gsnedders> (Which I guess if you're going to use WebDriver is relevant)
  822. # [23:22] <jarib> nope, not using Java
  823. # [23:23] <jarib> i have ruby bindings that implement the WebDriver API (talking directly to the browser extensions)
  824. # [23:23] <gsnedders> ah
  825. # [23:24] <jarib> so for opera, we'll just use Deniz' ruby implementaation of STP0 (and perhaps do STP1 down the road)
  826. # [23:25] * gsnedders doesn't really know how much about OperaWatir he can say, which is rather annoying
  827. # [23:26] <gsnedders> How much did Deniz tell you, at a fairly high level?
  828. # [23:26] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  829. # [23:27] <jarib> he didn't say much, just that the documentation for the protocol is outdated :)
  830. # [23:27] <gsnedders> Yeah. It's awesome documentation.
  831. # [23:28] <jarib> but his java driver for WebDriver is almost ready to ship I think, so will use that as a reference for the ruby bindings
  832. # [23:29] <gsnedders> Ah, so you do indeed know that is Java. OK. That's what I was really wondering.
  833. # [23:29] <jarib> ah, yes
  834. # [23:30] <jarib> i think his main concern was having to maintain both OperaDriver and OperaWatir, so he's pretty happy Watir 2 will be built on webdriver
  835. # [23:30] <gsnedders> My understanding is that his impl relies upon things only added to Scope after 2.2, so it's highly unlikely to ship until we have at least a public release of desktop with 2.4
  836. # [23:31] <jarib> could be, he said he has WebDriver impls using both STP0 and STP1
  837. # [23:33] <jarib> we have a wave about it, if you're on Wave and interested to join in
  838. # [23:34] <gsnedders> I do, though I have looked at Wave once. :)
  839. # [23:34] <gsnedders> geoffers, if you want to add me
  840. # [23:34] <jarib> will do. Wave really showed its potential at GTAC
  841. # [23:36] * gsnedders really wants totally offline clients
  842. # [23:37] * jarib looks at .idl files from WebKit
  843. # [23:38] <jarib> so i guess these are written by hand
  844. # [23:38] <gsnedders> Right, they will be
  845. # [23:39] <gsnedders> Probably primarily down to the fact there are about five different forms of IDL
  846. # [23:39] <gsnedders> (All of which are incompatible with one another)
  847. # [23:39] <jarib> hmm
  848. # [23:40] <ment> gsnedders: almost any modern browser has "offline mode"
  849. # [23:40] <gsnedders> ment: That doesn't mean I have absolutely all my data offline in a form I can readily export
  850. # [23:41] <erlehmann> full stop !! dump the databases !!! everyone uses sqlite, rite?
  851. # [23:41] * Parts: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-ab5f18bcabe9182b)
  852. # [23:42] <gsnedders> That's still fairly evil.
  853. # [23:42] <ment> gsnedders: oh yeah, that sqlite-in-javascript-in-browser concept
  854. # [23:42] * lmorchard is now known as lmorchard|away
  855. # [23:42] <gsnedders> And only works if the web site stores all the data in a local database, which is might not (it is highly likely it'll only download a subset, like the most recent 100)
  856. # [23:43] <ment> client-side sql-injection, here i come!
  857. # [23:46] <gsnedders> jarib: Hmm, I'll probably ping Deniz about one or two things tomorrow at work
  858. # [23:47] * Parts: darobin (n=robin@72-254-116-7.client.stsn.net)
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  860. # [23:47] <jarib> gsnedders: ok. do you work on anything related to this?
  861. # [23:47] <gsnedders> jarib: Not really, I've used OperaWatir a bit internally, and I've been dealing with one or two STP things recently
  862. # [23:48] <gsnedders> jarib: Probably going to spend a fair amount of time doing stuff with it next month, though
  863. # [23:48] <jarib> i see
  864. # [23:49] <jarib> if you have any suggestion as to what idls would be best fit to my purpose, i'd love to hear
  865. # [23:50] <gsnedders> Hmm, I appear to have created three blank messages in Wave accidently.
  866. # [23:50] <gsnedders> Hmm, empty messages that can't be deleted. Great.
  867. # [23:50] <gsnedders> Oh, they can be
  868. # [23:52] <gsnedders> jarib: If you're starting with something today, I'd use WebIDL.
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  871. # [23:53] <jarib> gsnedders: so when you mentioned there being five different formats, are any of the open source browsers using plain WebIDL?
  872. # [23:54] <gsnedders> jarib: WebIDL is only just now becoming stable, but will almost certainly become what is widely used, so no browser uses it internally yet.
  873. # [23:55] <jarib> i see
  874. # [23:55] <jarib> what's the format used in WebKit? looks pretty similar
  875. # [23:55] <gsnedders> I dunno, I haven't looked at that for a while
  876. # [23:56] <jarib> ok, thanks again. this is exactly what i need.
  877. # [23:56] <gsnedders> as far as I know it's their own custom format. Asking in #webkit is probably a better bet.
  878. # [23:56] <jarib> will do
  879. # [23:56] <gsnedders> I'm a mere QA guy, what do I know? ;P
  880. # [23:57] <jarib> hehe, so am i :)
  881. # [23:57] <gsnedders> Anyhow, I really need to sleep
  882. # [23:58] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-229-211.bredband.comhem.se)
  883. # Session Close: Tue Nov 03 00:00:00 2009

The end :)