/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-11-03 / end

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  143. # [09:16] <Creap> While images are at the top of my list of desired medium types in a WWW browser, I don’t think we should add idiosyncratic hooks for media one at a time.
  144. # [09:16] <Creap> love that quote
  145. # [09:16] <Creap> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/11/02/why-do-we-have-an-img-element
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  150. # [10:06] <virtuelv> mpilgrim: yt?
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  165. # [12:09] <hober> Is there more recent <head profile> data than http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/pageheaders.html ?
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  167. # [12:21] <zcorpan_> http://philip.html5.org/data/profile-values-2.txt
  168. # [12:21] <zcorpan_> http://philip.html5.org/data/profile-values.txt
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  172. # [12:41] <AryehGregor> Awesome post: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/11/02/why-do-we-have-an-img-element
  173. # [12:45] <virtuelv> It is
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  178. # [13:34] <Omnipotent> Hey, where can I find an example for a complete (basic) HTML5 document?
  179. # [13:35] <jcranmer> <!DOCTYPE html>
  180. # [13:35] <jcranmer> that should be complete, IIRC
  181. # [13:35] <gsnedders|work> You need title too
  182. # [13:35] <gsnedders|work> <!doctype html><title></title>
  183. # [13:35] <Omnipotent> Not doctype, document.
  184. # [13:35] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: Damn you. Too fast
  185. # [13:35] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: All your fingers are belong to me.
  186. # [13:35] <jcranmer> funny, I always seemed to be able to get pages working w/o titles
  187. # [13:35] <jgraham> jcranmer: They won't validate
  188. # [13:35] <gsnedders|work> jcranmer: That's not conforming though
  189. # [13:36] <jcranmer> should be :-P
  190. # [13:36] <jgraham> Omnipotent: You might want to tighten up your specification
  191. # [13:36] <jgraham> Like what do you mean by "complete (basic) document"?
  192. # [13:37] <gsnedders|work> Omnipotent: What we've given you is a conforming HTML 5 document. That fact that it only has a DOCTYPE and a title is beside the point. :P
  193. # [13:37] <gsnedders|work> Omnipotent: It's basic, I think.
  194. # [13:37] <jgraham> Omnipotent: (like a complete basic HTML5 blog page is quite different from a complete basic HTML5 email client)
  195. # [13:37] <Omnipotent> if I asked that for an HTML4 document, the answer world probably be something like: <!doctype ><html><head><title>blah</title></head><body><h2>header</h2><p>paragraph</p></body></html>
  196. # [13:38] <Omnipotent> Only with linebreaks and more readability :P.
  197. # [13:38] <gsnedders|work> You don't need html, head, or body tags.
  198. # [13:38] <jcranmer> html and head are definitely optional
  199. # [13:38] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: But there is no harm in having them
  200. # [13:38] <gsnedders|work> <!doctype html><title>Magic</title><h1>Really magic</h1><p>Not that magic
  201. # [13:38] <jgraham> You seem to be confusing "basic" with "minimal"
  202. # [13:38] <Omnipotent> Yeah, I think they do.
  203. # [13:38] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: Indeed. But minimal is basic. :P
  204. # [13:39] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: (Although they are not synonymous)
  205. # [13:39] <Omnipotent> I mean something that will be actually used for a website?
  206. # [13:39] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: That seems like a big leap
  207. # [13:39] <Omnipotent> With CSS and all?
  208. # [13:39] <jgraham> There is quite a deal of additional complexity to grasp when you miss out tags
  209. # [13:39] <gsnedders|work> <!doctype html><style>body {background:pink; color:blue;}</style><title>Ponies</title><h1>I &lt;3 ponies</h1>
  210. # [13:39] <jgraham> (even <tbody>)
  211. # [13:40] <gsnedders|work> That's got CSS and all!
  212. # [13:40] <jcranmer> I prefer #abcdef; and #fedcba;
  213. # [13:40] <jgraham> Omnipotent: A basic HTML5 page looks like a basic HTML4 page. Basically.
  214. # [13:40] * gsnedders|work tries to remember what he was actually working on
  215. # [13:41] <Omnipotent> How about new elements like section and article?
  216. # [13:45] <jgraham> Omnipotent: <!doctype html><title>My Blog!</title><body><h1>My Blog!</h1><article><h1>My first post</h1>This is a post<section><h1>This I link about this post</h1>Nothing</section></section></body>
  217. # [13:45] <jgraham> s/link/like/
  218. # [13:46] <jgraham> Oh and one of those </section>s should have been a </article>
  219. # [13:48] * Quits: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  220. # [13:48] <Omnipotent> Ty.
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  222. # [14:05] * NetBen is now known as BenGerrissen
  223. # [14:06] <hsivonen> http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/verot.shtml/arkistot/verot/2009/11/984114
  224. # [14:06] <hsivonen> tables being evil taken too far
  225. # [14:06] <hsivonen> (view source)
  226. # [14:11] <Philip`> I like how the three columns don't actually line up properly
  227. # [14:12] * gsnedders|work is guilty of doing similar things himself in the past
  228. # [14:14] <payman> jgraham: forgot </html>
  229. # [14:14] <Philip`> payman: It was no more forgotten than the <html>
  230. # [14:15] <payman> right, my bad
  231. # [14:16] <gsnedders|work> payman: Go learn HTML.
  232. # [14:16] * Philip` isn't sure whether they were both forgotten or both intentionally omitted
  233. # [14:16] <Philip`> seeing as <body> wasn't omitted
  234. # [14:16] <payman> lol, ok!
  235. # [14:18] <jgraham> Both intentionally omitted
  236. # [14:18] <jgraham> Due to laziness but wanting to put all the sectioning elements in
  237. # [14:18] * Joins: Sefyroth (n=Sefyroth@unaffiliated/sefyroth)
  238. # [14:18] <Philip`> Why not omit <body> then?
  239. # [14:19] <jgraham> <body> is a sectioning element, no?
  240. # [14:19] <Philip`> It's not an element, it's a tag
  241. # [14:19] <Philip`> Also, I missed the latter half of your explanation
  242. # [14:20] <jgraham> pedant
  243. # [14:23] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
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  259. # [16:15] <zcorpan_> importScripts doesn't have the same-origin restriction, right
  260. # [16:16] <Dashiva> Is that a script?
  261. # [16:16] <zcorpan_> web workers
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  263. # [16:19] <annevk2> nope
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  268. # [16:35] <Dashiva> http://twitter.com/marcosc/status/5384964417
  269. # [16:35] * Quits: nattokirai (n=nattokir@12.229.246.2) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  270. # [16:36] <Philip`> http://twitter.com/fsasaki/statuses/5378611343 - what's i28n?
  271. # [16:36] * Philip` 's dictionary doesn't have any matches :-(
  272. # [16:36] <annevk2> dunno, but the gist of that discussion was that they wanted xml:lang to influence the element language as well
  273. # [16:37] <annevk2> xml:lang in no namespace that is
  274. # [16:41] <Dashiva> Philip`: It's intergalacticalnationalization
  275. # [16:43] <beowulf> preciated
  276. # [16:44] <beowulf> wrong window, though the first letter got into the right window...
  277. # [16:45] <Philip`> Where did the second letter go?
  278. # [16:45] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  279. # [16:45] <beowulf> Philip`: presumably it switched the windows?
  280. # [16:45] <beowulf> magic irssi p keystroke
  281. # [16:46] <Philip`> Ah
  282. # [16:46] <Philip`> Odd
  283. # [16:46] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  284. # [16:46] <Philip`> My irssi has the 'p' key bound to the action of inserting a p in my message
  285. # [16:46] <beowulf> probably just my finger mashing typing style :)
  286. # [16:46] <Dashiva> I wonder if mrlastweek wants to be found. Some kind of desperate cry for affection.
  287. # [16:47] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  288. # [16:50] <annevk2> it seems mrlastweek is actually a fan: http://twitter.com/realmrlastweek
  289. # [16:51] <Dashiva> Oh indeed
  290. # [16:51] <Dashiva> Or maybe he's both of them
  291. # [16:52] <Philip`> Maybe they're both fakes
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  293. # [16:53] <Dashiva> It looks like the blog links to the twitter account, though
  294. # [16:53] <Philip`> A cunning ruse
  295. # [16:57] <Dashiva> In what way?
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  301. # [17:06] * riven` is now known as riven
  302. # [17:06] <jgraham> Philip`: Did you ever look at popular javascript libraries in the dotbot (or any other) data?
  303. # [17:07] * Parts: jptix (i=jptix@li34-70.members.linode.com) ("bye")
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  312. # [17:24] <Philip`> Dashiva: It's so cunning that I don't know
  313. # [17:24] <Philip`> jgraham: Not in any detail (though I do have a file listing all the <script src> values from all the pages)
  314. # [17:25] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@72-254-102-177.client.stsn.net)
  315. # [17:28] <jgraham> Philip`: That sounds like an interesting file
  316. # [17:28] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@72-254-102-222.client.stsn.net)
  317. # [17:28] <Philip`> It's a 200MB file so I don't really fancy uploading it
  318. # [17:29] <gsnedders|work> Get a quicker internet connection
  319. # [17:30] <jgraham> Get better compression
  320. # [17:30] <Philip`> It's still 30MB gzipped
  321. # [17:30] <jgraham> That sounds much more bearable depending on what type of connection you are on
  322. # [17:30] <jgraham> bzip2 would presumably be smaller still
  323. # [17:30] <jgraham> But may not complete
  324. # [17:31] <jgraham> by the heat death of the universe
  325. # [17:31] <Philip`> I shouldn't need to use my connection since none of the data is on my computer
  326. # [17:32] <Philip`> bzip2 is less than 2MB smaller
  327. # [17:32] <jgraham> Disappointing
  328. # [17:32] <jgraham> So are you willing to upload a 28-30 megabyte file
  329. # [17:32] <jgraham> ?
  330. # [17:33] <Philip`> Most of the effort is in trying to work out how to copy files between two computers
  331. # [17:34] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe I could use a fourth computer and rsync
  332. # [17:36] * Joins: fishd_ (n=darin@nat/google/x-8510e3810adb7fea)
  333. # [17:38] <jgraham> As in the old adage "there's no problem involving three computers that can't be solved by adding a fourth"?
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  336. # [17:40] <Philip`> Hmm, it downloaded to the fourth machine at about 10MByte/sec, but uploading to Dreamhost is incredibly slow
  337. # [17:41] <jgraham> Don't you have some cam.ac.uk space somewhere?
  338. # [17:41] <jgraham> presumably you have a fast connection to that
  339. # [17:41] <jgraham> *.cam.ac.uk I guess
  340. # [17:42] <Philip`> Yes but it's probably got silly quotas and stuff
  341. # [17:42] <Philip`> and I have a more proper server anyway (the aforementioned fourth machine)
  342. # [17:42] <Philip`> but I don't want to fragment my HTML5-related data onto more domains than it's already on
  343. # [17:43] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/script-src-raw.txt.7z
  344. # [17:44] <Philip`> (Just all the attribute values seen when parsing, with no particular order and no grouping)
  345. # [17:44] <jgraham> Philip`: Thanks
  346. # [17:45] <jgraham> Philip`: It is being served as text/plain btw
  347. # [17:45] <Philip`> jgraham: Blame Dreamhost
  348. # [17:45] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt)
  349. # [17:45] <jgraham> Dreamhost: it is being served as text/plain btw
  350. # [17:45] <Philip`> Also, can't you decode LZMA in your head?
  351. # [17:45] * fishd_ is now known as fishd
  352. # [17:46] * jgraham wonders what he needs to open that file
  353. # [17:46] <Philip`> 7zip
  354. # [17:46] <gsnedders|work> On a real OS?
  355. # [17:47] <Philip`> or a hex editor and the 7zip file format specification
  356. # [17:47] <Philip`> It might be called p7zip on some weirdo systems
  357. # [17:49] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-50103a50d092c137)
  358. # [17:49] * jgraham is sutiably impressed with it working in file-roller as soon as he installs the package
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  364. # [18:00] <GPHemsley> Hixie: For the record, I second tjeddo's proposal of rel="citation" on <a>
  365. # [18:00] * Joins: CriticalMass__ (n=chatzill@brick-lane.lbi.co.uk)
  366. # [18:00] <Hixie> amount of support doesn't matter, only the strength of the arguments for or against :-)
  367. # [18:01] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Well, read the e-mail. :)
  368. # [18:01] <Hixie> will do :-)
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  390. # [18:31] <zcorpan_> var x; try { importScripts('data:text/javascript,x=1','data:text/javascript,}'); } catch(e) {}
  391. # [18:31] <zcorpan_> x should be 1, right?
  392. # [18:32] <Hixie> i think so
  393. # [18:32] <Hixie> don't see what else it could be
  394. # [18:32] <zcorpan_> in firefox it's undefined
  395. # [18:33] <zcorpan_> maybe firefox joins the scripts together into one script and then compiles it all at once?
  396. # [18:33] <Hixie> seems unlikely, but you can test that theory easily
  397. # [18:33] <Hixie> split a script in two
  398. # [18:34] <Hixie> and see if it works
  399. # [18:34] <Hixie> e.g. var x; try { importScripts('data:text/javascript,x={','data:text/javascript,}'); } catch(e) {}
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  402. # [18:34] <Dashiva> Maybe it detects parse errors in a separate stage, before executing anything
  403. # [18:35] <Hixie> also easy to test
  404. # [18:35] <Hixie> e.g. var x; try { importScripts('data:text/javascript,x=1','data:text/javascript,throw 0'); } catch(e) {}
  405. # [18:36] <gsnedders|work> Can someone change http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8143 to critical? (as it ought to get into html5lib 1.0)
  406. # [18:36] <Dashiva> Also, doesn't hurt to verify that the error is what you except :)
  407. # [18:37] <hober> zcorpan_: thanks
  408. # [18:37] <Dashiva> *expect
  409. # [18:37] <Philip`> Looking at the code, it loads (downloads/compiles) all the scripts, then verifies them all and aborts on failure, then executes them all
  410. # [18:37] <Hixie> gsnedders|work: ask MikeSmith to give you rights
  411. # [18:37] <Hixie> (i set it)
  412. # [18:37] <Philip`> (and aborts on the first one where execution fails)
  413. # [18:37] <Hixie> gsnedders|work: what's your deadline?
  414. # [18:37] <Hixie> gsnedders|work: i.e. how urgent is this
  415. # [18:38] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: By Friday
  416. # [18:38] <Hixie> k
  417. # [18:38] <Hixie> can you help me understand the problem? half my brain is listening to this meeting so i can't page in the entire parser model
  418. # [18:38] <zcorpan_> var x; try { importScripts('data:text/javascript,x={','data:text/javascript,}'); } catch(e) {} // x is undefined
  419. # [18:39] <zcorpan_> var x; try { importScripts('data:text/javascript,x=1','data:text/javascript,throw 0'); } catch(e) {} // x is 1
  420. # [18:39] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@72-254-56-137.client.stsn.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  421. # [18:39] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: You had with the content model flags a EOF case there, now you don't
  422. # [18:39] <Hixie> zcorpan_: they yeah, they syntax check then compile
  423. # [18:39] * hcr is now known as hamcore
  424. # [18:39] * hamcore is now known as hcr
  425. # [18:39] <Hixie> zcorpan_: what does the spec say to do?
  426. # [18:39] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Why can't you edit it? Bugzilla seems to indicate you have editbugs permission
  427. # [18:39] * hcr is now known as hamcore
  428. # [18:39] <Hixie> gsnedders|work: can you say that again in english and with more detail? assume i'm not paying attention. :-)
  429. # [18:39] * hamcore is now known as hcr
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  431. # [18:39] <zcorpan_> Hixie: "For each argument in turn, in the order given, starting with the first one, run these substeps:"
  432. # [18:40] <Hixie> zcorpan_: file a bug on them :-)
  433. # [18:40] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: Hey, I have other work-work to do :)
  434. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> gsnedders|work: you should be able to set it yourself now
  435. # [18:41] <gsnedders|work> MikeSmith: Yeah, I appear to be able to now, thx
  436. # [18:41] <Dashiva> s/importScripts/importScript/ and the problem disappears ;)
  437. # [18:42] * Quits: CriticalMass (n=chatzill@66.28.217.202) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  438. # [18:42] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: Basically, you read rawtext end tag name state, and eventually you have in temporary buffer "xmp", and then you hit EOF. When you hit EOF, we should have a case in that state in the parser which just reprocesses the EOF character in the data state
  439. # [18:44] <Hixie> gsnedders|work: oh you want the characters _not_ emitted?
  440. # [18:44] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: Yeah
  441. # [18:44] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: To match all browsers and the spec before you removed content model flags :)
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  444. # [18:46] <Hixie> gsnedders|work: k, can do
  445. # [18:47] * Parts: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186)
  446. # [18:47] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: That's the only issue I've found caused by the content model flag removal, so congrats :)
  447. # [18:48] <Hixie> cool
  448. # [18:50] <Hixie> so "<style><" is the same as "<style><</style>", "<style></" is the same as "<style></</style>", "<style></s" is the same as "<style></style>", and "<style></stylex" is the same as "<style></style>", but "<style></stylex>" is the same as "<style></stylex></style>"?
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  450. # [18:50] <Hixie> that seems weird
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  452. # [18:54] <zcorpan_> surely content doesn't rely on characters not being emitted
  453. # [18:55] <zcorpan_> can't we do what's sane here?
  454. # [18:55] <gsnedders|work> We already have interop
  455. # [18:55] <gsnedders|work> It seems risky to change
  456. # [18:55] <zcorpan_> ok
  457. # [18:56] <zcorpan_> gsnedders|work: will you fix the html5lib tests?
  458. # [18:56] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan_: They already expect that behaviour because that's what the spec said before the content model flag was removed
  459. # [18:56] <zcorpan_> gsnedders|work: tests16.dat doesn't
  460. # [18:56] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan_: This doesn't effect script data modes
  461. # [18:56] <zcorpan_> oh
  462. # [18:57] <gsnedders|work> RCDATA and RAWTEXT
  463. # [18:57] <gsnedders|work> (Though I guess I probably take a look at script data too)
  464. # [18:57] <gsnedders|work> But yeah, I'll update them if need be
  465. # [18:57] <zcorpan_> so <script></s means <script></s</script> while <style></s means <style></style>?
  466. # [18:57] <gsnedders|work> That seems bad
  467. # [18:57] <gsnedders|work> I guess we should change script data too
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  471. # [19:04] <Hixie> i'd much rather make the spec always return the full string unless the end tag was fully recognised
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  473. # [19:04] <Hixie> i.e. same as the spec now except making EOF be a parse error
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  483. # [19:18] <Hixie> gsnedders|work: i think i prefer the way the spec is now than what you're asking for
  484. # [19:19] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: It was deliberately changed to what I was asking for before the content model flag changes
  485. # [19:20] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: Changing it back just because you made a mistake in a zero-black-box changes change seems bad
  486. # [19:20] <Hixie> do you remember what convinced me that was a good idea?
  487. # [19:20] <gsnedders|work> No
  488. # [19:20] <Philip`> It must have been a good argument, else you wouldn't have changed it
  489. # [19:21] <Hixie> hard to argue that
  490. # [19:21] <Hixie> but without knowing what it was, maybe it no longer applies
  491. # [19:21] <Philip`> It doesn't matter what the argument actually was, it just matters that it exists
  492. # [19:21] <Lachy> JohnResig, yt?
  493. # [19:21] <Hixie> Philip`: it matters because it might have been predicated on assumptions that no longer apply
  494. # [19:22] <Hixie> Philip`: e.g. gsnedders might have bribed me to make one change, but without saying that i couldn't change it back, and so the argument would only work again if he bribed me again.
  495. # [19:23] <Lachy> JohnResig, join irc.w3.org:6665 channel #webapps if you want to catch the selectors api discussion soon
  496. # [19:23] * gsnedders|work passes Hixie a wad (sp?) of cache
  497. # [19:23] <gsnedders|work> *cash
  498. # [19:23] <gsnedders|work> Silly homophones when I'm sleepy
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  512. # [20:06] <Dashiva> "Consider removing X", with no rationale given. Smells like success.
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  515. # [20:11] <Hixie> Dashiva: that's probably a bug i filed as a note to myself
  516. # [20:11] <Hixie> during a meeting
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  518. # [20:12] <hsivonen> can't i18n use lang in n namespace instead of xml:lang in no namespace
  519. # [20:13] <hsivonen> @lang works already
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  523. # [20:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: "it doesn't work in pure xml workflows, for example xpath's language support in xslt only looks at xml:lang in xml namespace"
  524. # [20:19] <tantek> what does "pure xml" mean?
  525. # [20:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: how does xml:lang in no namespace help, then?
  526. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> Presumably for treatment as a polyglot?
  527. # [20:21] <tantek> hsivonen, do we then also include xml:id[1] by the same reasoning? [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-id/
  528. # [20:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: they should be running the V.nu parser in the mode that maps lang in no namespace to lang in the http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace namespace
  529. # [20:21] <hsivonen> tantek: what reasoning?
  530. # [20:21] <tantek> to include xml:lang
  531. # [20:22] <hsivonen> tantek: no, xml:id got voted off the island
  532. # [20:22] <tantek> and xml:lang did not? (for the same reasons)
  533. # [20:22] <hsivonen> tantek: xml:lang already got in
  534. # [20:23] <hsivonen> lang in the http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace namespace that is
  535. # [20:23] <hsivonen> tantek: I think we shouldn't give into i18n on xml:lang in no namespace
  536. # [20:23] <tantek> hsivonen - that's my point. I think I am agreeing with your position.
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  539. # [20:24] <hsivonen> xml:lang is so har to talk about (xml:lang in no namespace vs. lang in the http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace namespace)
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  541. # [20:25] <tantek> hsivonen - from a web authoring perspective, I'd prefer no form of "xml:lang" - just use "lang" as defined in HTML.
  542. # [20:25] <hsivonen> tantek: me too
  543. # [20:26] <hsivonen> tantek: but I still rpovide software that lets people write thei XML pipelines as if the were dealing with lang in the http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace namespace when the source says lang="..."
  544. # [20:26] <hsivonen> *provide
  545. # [20:26] <hsivonen> *their
  546. # [20:26] <hsivonen> *they
  547. # [20:26] <hsivonen> typo++
  548. # [20:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: they were saying they didn't want to serialise to text/html, they just wanted to output a polyglot document
  549. # [20:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: the argument against it, i think, would be to say that we don't want to encourage polyglot documents, but in that case we should also drop xmlns, />, etc
  550. # [20:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't buy "don't want" as a strong reason
  551. # [20:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: is there a "can't" about using a text/html serializer?
  552. # [20:35] <Hixie> dunno, i didn't get into this much
  553. # [20:36] <hsivonen> I always wonder if people who say they want polyglot doc for XSLT/XPath have tried my XSLT4HTML sample app
  554. # [20:38] <Hixie> gsnedders|work: i'm gonna reject the bug for now, but let me know if you can find the reason why we changed it in the first place.
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  556. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> What's shepazu's email address?
  557. # [20:59] <roc> "Doug Schepers" <schepers@w3.org>,
  558. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> Danke, roc.
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  560. # [21:02] <Hixie> hsivonen: where did you see the language thing btw?
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  562. # [21:05] -myakura:#whatwg- yawns
  563. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, FWIW, I'm often not around in the day now (I'm at school), but I can respond when I get home if you leave a message. Also, BTW, your gradient syntax is awesome.
  564. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> background-image: -webkit-gradient(linear, 0% 0%, 0% 100%, from(#0AE), to(white)); background-image: linear-gradient(#0AE, white); <http://aryeh.name/css/main.css>
  565. # [21:07] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Heh, k. I couldn't recall if you knew any Hebrew, and we were having a discussion that could have used some experience with Hebrew typographic conventions yesterday in the csswg.
  566. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> Yes, I know Hebrew.
  567. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> What's the question?
  568. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> Okay, this is a touch confusing, so follow closely.
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  570. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> You have an element. Half is in Latin, half is in Hebrew. (any rtl language would work, but Hebrew's the main one that comes to mind)
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  572. # [21:08] * jwalden_ is now known as jwalden
  573. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> You've got white-space:pre, overflow:hidden, and text-overflow:ellipsis.
  574. # [21:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: what's XSLT4HTML?
  575. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> The element is wide enough to contain all of the latin text, and only half of the hebrew text.
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  577. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> What part of the hebrew text is rendered, what is cut off, and where is the ellipsis placed?
  578. # [21:09] <Philip`> MikeSmith: An HTML5 parser and an XSLT processor and an HTML5 serializer, if I rememberr correctly
  579. # [21:09] <Philip`> s/rr/r/
  580. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> Well, I can give you an example. Look at my own website's <title> when the tab width is too small for all of it to display: http://aryeh.name/
  581. # [21:10] <Philip`> in a handy command-line form
  582. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> Both Chrome and Firefox cut off the last logical word of the Hebrew, even though it would display further to the left normally.
  583. # [21:10] <roc> the first visual half of the Hebrew text (the second logical half) should be rendered, the rest cut off
  584. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> Chrome puts the ellipsis in the middle, between the RTL and LTR text, while Firefox 3.7 nightly puts it all the way to the right.
  585. # [21:10] <TabAtkins> The last *logical* word? So the part that's in the visual center of the span?
  586. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  587. # [21:11] <roc> Firefox doesn't support text-overflow
  588. # [21:11] <TabAtkins> roc: That's what I and others think is most reasonable/sane.
  589. # [21:11] <roc> our "Hebrew guy" agreed
  590. # [21:11] <roc> way back when we discussed this long ago
  591. # [21:11] <TabAtkins> roc: But some think that it's best to stick to logical order and have ellipses in the middle. Which makes things crazy.
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  593. # [21:11] <roc> yes, it does
  594. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> Well, I would defer to an Israeli, since they read more mixed-text stuff than I do.
  595. # [21:11] <roc> crazy: bad
  596. # [21:12] <TabAtkins> We really want to make text-overflow a purely rendering-time construct, not something that gets applied during layout-time.
  597. # [21:12] <AryehGregor> roc, Firefox 3.7 doesn't seem to behave the way you describe for <title>s in tabs.
  598. # [21:12] <roc> TabAtkins: right
  599. # [21:12] <TabAtkins> You should just be able to layout text normally, then at render-time chop out the overflowing bits and swap an ellipsis in.
  600. # [21:12] <roc> AryehGregor: yeah, well that's different, and probably wrong
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  602. # [21:13] <TabAtkins> We've established that browsers currently do things that are probably bad for text-overflow.
  603. # [21:13] <AryehGregor> I dunno, Chrome's behavior (truncate last logical word and put ellipsis in the visual middle) seems nicest to me. But it seems arguable.
  604. # [21:13] <roc> I'm quite sure that XUL's text-overflow-alike feature was not designed with the niceties of mixed-direction text in mind
  605. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> We had a similar example with hebrew first and latin second, and we all agreed that the first logical part of the Latin text should be cut off and ellipsized on the left side.
  606. # [21:14] <AryehGregor> Opera seems to act insane. I see only the two letters לע before the ellipsis, which aren't present anywhere consecutively in the text being truncated, either logically or visually.
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  608. # [21:14] <AryehGregor> At least not in that order.
  609. # [21:14] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, you mean when the dominant direction is RTL? Then why should it be different going the other way?
  610. # [21:15] * AryehGregor concludes mixed-direction text is crazy, next question please
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  612. # [21:15] <TabAtkins> Aryeh: Yes, the document was rtl. And it wouldn't be different - it would be the exact same behavior we *want* for hebrew being cut off in a ltr doc.
  613. # [21:15] <TabAtkins> And yes, bidi is crazy all over the place.
  614. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> Okay, the basic options are 1) truncate the last visual part, 2) truncate the last logical part.
  615. # [21:15] <TabAtkins> Yes. We want (1).
  616. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> Either makes sense, I guess, depends how you look at it.
  617. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> Okay, well, then you agree with Mozilla's Hebrew guy (who is he, BTW?), so then that's settled?
  618. # [21:16] <TabAtkins> Because (2) means that text-overflow affects layout directly, and most reasonably produce ellipses in the middle of the text.
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  621. # [21:16] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  622. # [21:16] <TabAtkins> Aryeh: Yup, looks so. Woo!
  623. # [21:16] <jwalden> I'm guessing smontagu
  624. # [21:16] <TabAtkins> s/most/must/
  625. # [21:16] <AryehGregor> That's what Chrome does in my tab, an ellipsis in the middle. I think it looks kind of cool. :)
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  627. # [21:17] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure what "affects layout directly" means.
  628. # [21:17] <AryehGregor> Surely you have to at least know where letter and word boundaries are at the point where you do text-overflow.
  629. # [21:19] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: In the examples I discussed, if there is no text-overflow, then the first logical part of the hebrew is cut off. Making it act differently when text-overflow:ellipsis is present would be it affecting layout.
  630. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> Yeah, you have to know about character/whatever boundaries to know how much to back off so you can put the ellipsis in, but that can be done at render-time and doesn't affect anything else.
  631. # [21:20] <roc> it means that elements, even elements other than text, can be moved by text-overflow
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  634. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> Also, the (2) behavior is crazy when you mix it with overflow:scroll (which is already *wrong* in all browsers, but at least there's no question about how to fix that).
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  637. # [21:24] <roc> it's also crazy when you resize
  638. # [21:25] <TabAtkins> Correct, basically identical issue.
  639. # [21:25] <TabAtkins> And without the crazy behavior that browsers currently give for text-overflow:ellipsis;overflow:scroll;
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  642. # [21:27] <TabAtkins> Even worse: latin-hebrew-latin, with the element wide enough to cut halfway through the hebrew. I don't think it's possible to define a sane way to present that even ignoring scroll/resize with (2) behavior.
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  644. # [21:27] <TabAtkins> If you did resize, you'd have to add hebrew into the middle of the text until it was done, then add latin back onto the end of the text. Crazy.
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  655. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> I'm unclear about the XML entities discussion. Is it proposed that XHTML5 mandate processing of entities always, or only for certain old non-conforming doctypes?
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  709. # Session Close: Wed Nov 04 00:00:00 2009

The end :)