/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-11-04 / end

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  68. # [03:03] <JonathanNeal> So, the <header> element isn't necessary for the root <body> element, but can exist within <section> elements, is that right?
  69. # [03:04] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: yeah, it can be a child of a section
  70. # [03:04] <MikeSmith> and it's not required anywhere
  71. # [03:05] <JonathanNeal> Groovy, in the company-home demo, I noticed that the page's main navigation existed within the <header> element, is that recommended that the "global"-like navigation for a site exist within the <header> ?
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  80. # [03:33] <JonathanNeal> Did that make sense. Maybe I asked the question poorly?
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  85. # [03:50] <JonathanNeal> Either the question sucked, or MikeSmith took off.
  86. # [03:51] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: I'm still here
  87. # [03:52] <MikeSmith> just in a meeting at the moement
  88. # [03:52] <MikeSmith> moment
  89. # [03:52] <MikeSmith> what you describe sounds perfectly fine
  90. # [03:53] <MikeSmith> as far as the intended use of header and nav goes
  91. # [03:53] <MikeSmith> I think one of the examples in the spec actually does what you describe
  92. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: have you looked at the HTML5 spec itself? or are you working from one of the tutorials or articles?
  93. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> it's worth looking through the spec and the examples in it
  94. # [03:54] <JonathanNeal> I did, and I noticed a consistancy of the main <nav> being placed inside the <header> along with the <hgroup>/<h1>/etc
  95. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: that sounds the same as what you described above
  96. # [04:04] <JonathanNeal> Yes, basically ... the header inevitably contains my global heading, and I'm trying to intelligently group my outline, but the header element isn't part of the "outline algorithm", but navs do, but those navs don't have their own headers <h1>
  97. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> I see
  98. # [04:06] <JonathanNeal> <header><h1>My Site</h1><nav><ul><li>Page 1</li><li>Page 2</li></ul></header> ... trying to follow the spec, I don't feel sure whether or not I'm saying that the <nav> a piece of the <header> but has no outline itself, even an example with a <header> and <nav> @ http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#the-header-element produces a headerless "section", per the description of a sectio
  99. # [04:06] <JonathanNeal> n.
  100. # [04:09] <JonathanNeal> Well, not to mention that the example doesn't have any closing </li>'s
  101. # [04:11] <JonathanNeal> Unless they're not required. I swear I'm American and educated, even though my sentences would indicate otherwise :-(
  102. # [04:12] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: the closing tags for <li> are not required in the HTML syntax
  103. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> they have never been required in the HTML syntax, since the very begining of HTML
  104. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> they are only required in XHTML
  105. # [04:15] <JonathanNeal> Oh, brilliant. I never knew that. Maybe this helps explain my problem @ http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/process.py?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsandbox.thewikies.com%2Fhtml5-outline-question
  106. # [04:15] <JonathanNeal> With the source @ http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-outline-question/
  107. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: I have to drop off
  108. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> but you are asking in the right place
  109. # [04:17] <JonathanNeal> Okay, thanks for your time though.
  110. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> cheers
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  115. # [04:28] <JonathanNeal> Hey, anybody else about?
  116. # [04:32] <jcranmer> nope, we're all dead
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  119. # [04:34] <JonathanNeal> jcranmer, I'm sorry for your losses.
  120. # [04:35] <jcranmer> I'm not sorry for my loss
  121. # [04:37] <JonathanNeal> well, everyone else who died, apparently :-)
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  154. # [06:09] <oojacoboo> so, are all you guys coding in strictly HTML5 now?
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  159. # [06:28] <JonathanNeal> In an outline, is it okay to have untitled sections? Like in a <nav> ?
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  196. # [08:19] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Yeah, it is. You should generally try to avoid it, but there's nothing *wrong* with it.
  197. # [08:37] <TabAtkins> Can anyone point me to the quirks-mode flowchart?
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  205. # [08:57] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Which quirks mode flowchart? There is an IE8-pecific one: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ie8-mode.png
  206. # [08:57] <jgraham> *specific
  207. # [08:58] <TabAtkins> That's the one I was looking for, thanks.
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  215. # [09:40] <erlehmann> jgraham, that thing makes me unhappy
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  218. # [09:51] <hsivonen> erlehmann: and I haven't even added Chrome Frame to the flowchart yet
  219. # [09:52] <erlehmann> hsivonen, DONT
  220. # [09:52] <erlehmann> just dont
  221. # [09:52] <erlehmann> nuke redmond from orbit
  222. # [09:53] <erlehmann> its the only way to be sure
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  232. # [10:29] <jgraham> erlehmann: It seems unfair to blame me :)
  233. # [10:29] <erlehmann> shoot the messenger :D
  234. # [10:30] <erlehmann> it worked in ye olde timeth
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  283. # [11:13] * jgraham is disappointed that no one has yet pointed out how close the <h1 src=""> proposal is to the <include> and <a include> proposals from 1993 that mpilgrim recently blogged
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  365. # [11:48] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: the spoon feed bug is about the xml parser
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  369. # [11:48] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: innerHTML says to feed the xml parser the string of a start tag and an end tag, iirc
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  381. # [11:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ok. oops.
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  383. # [12:02] <zcorpan_> wow validator.w3.org seems to say that anything is valid html5
  384. # [12:02] <zcorpan_> way to go
  385. # [12:06] <jgraham> def validate(document): return True
  386. # [12:07] <jgraham> why did that take hsivonen so long?
  387. # [12:07] <jgraham> I mean I know java is verbose, but even so...
  388. # [12:07] <jgraham> ;)
  389. # [12:10] <zcorpan_> now it's confirmed that html5 makes tag soup legal
  390. # [12:10] <zcorpan_> and D.E, too
  391. # [12:11] <jgraham> Hmm seems to wfm in that I get errors reported
  392. # [12:11] <jgraham> (using Text Field)
  393. # [12:12] <zcorpan_> you need detect automatically
  394. # [12:13] <zcorpan_> and a doctype that triggers html5 validation
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  396. # [12:14] <jgraham> Erm, I may have been using validator.nu rahter than validator.w3.org. I lose.
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  398. # [12:16] <krisives> hi all!
  399. # [12:16] <zcorpan_> hi krisives
  400. # [12:16] <krisives> Has anyone ever talked about private/public hashing for INPUT tags for HTML5 ?
  401. # [12:17] <krisives> I'm about to write out my idea into a blog post, but wanted to know if anyone else had started work or proposal on this type of thing
  402. # [12:17] <webben> krisives: Maybe ... what sort of hashing? for what?
  403. # [12:17] <zcorpan_> <input value=#>
  404. # [12:18] <krisives> Most people use Javascript right now to do client-side hashing of things like passwords
  405. # [12:18] <krisives> Like sending some salt and then doing MD5 in Javascript
  406. # [12:18] <krisives> To avoid sending the password over the wire
  407. # [12:18] <webben> right like this: http://drupal.org/node/36793 ?
  408. # [12:19] <krisives> I haven't seen that, but from scanning it sounds like what I'm talking about
  409. # [12:19] <krisives> I see it re-created all the time and thought it deserves a non-scripting solution
  410. # [12:20] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  411. # [12:20] <webben> I remember various discussion of hashing like http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/html/tagpages/k/keygen.htm but I don't recall a discussion of singling out a field and converting it to a hash before sendng.
  412. # [12:20] <webben> ah ha
  413. # [12:20] <webben> krisives: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-August/012385.html
  414. # [12:20] <webben> so yes, it has been discussed
  415. # [12:21] <krisives> one important thing is that it should be capable of doing salt
  416. # [12:21] <webben> so I guess search the archives for related discussion :)
  417. # [12:21] * Philip` guesses that the conclusion of the discussion was "if you care about security at all, use HTTPS"
  418. # [12:22] <krisives> Thanks I'm reading the mailing list now
  419. # [12:22] <krisives> HTTPS is broken
  420. # [12:22] <Philip`> Less broken than HTTP :-)
  421. # [12:22] <krisives> I can sign PayPals cert...
  422. # [12:22] <krisives> Its obfustication now IMO
  423. # [12:23] <webben> HTTPS does mean you aren't sending unencrypted traffic over the wire.
  424. # [12:23] <webben> It just doesn't guarantee you aren't sending unencrypted traffic to the wrong destination.
  425. # [12:23] <webben> (in practice)
  426. # [12:24] <webben> so ... wouldn't one have the same problem with a salted password?
  427. # [12:24] * webben is not a security expert, I should hasten to add.
  428. # [12:27] * Philip` vaguely remembers the issues with fake cert signing simply being about MD5, which is easily solved by using better hashing algorithms (which already work perfectly well in HTTPS)
  429. # [12:27] <krisives> The failures aren't the same
  430. # [12:28] <krisives> When SSL fails you get the plain text password
  431. # [12:28] <krisives> (Because it was transmitted)
  432. # [12:28] <krisives> If this is broken you at best get a subset of what the password could have been, if you wasted enough FLOPS to break the hash
  433. # [12:28] <krisives> Which also assumes you busted the salting technique
  434. # [12:29] <Philip`> With HTTP, an attacker can easily intercept the response and send you a version of the HTML page that doesn't have the hashing enabled on the password input
  435. # [12:29] <Philip`> and so you type your password in and the attacker gets it in plain text
  436. # [12:29] <webben> krisives: But, if the endpoint is using (say) an MD5 hash to authenticate, and a middleman grabs your MD5 hash, can't the middleman use that to authenticate?
  437. # [12:29] <krisives> Philip`: You can't use old technology to justify not creating new technology
  438. # [12:30] <webben> krisives: You can if the proposed new technology doesn't solve problems the old one doesn't.
  439. # [12:30] <webben> *old one does.
  440. # [12:30] <webben> or doesn't solve any new problems.
  441. # [12:30] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@72-254-97-4.client.stsn.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  442. # [12:30] <krisives> webben: In my proposal the salt would actually not be transmitted over the wire but would be a truely private key, such as when the user registered
  443. # [12:31] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@72-254-97-4.client.stsn.net)
  444. # [12:31] <webben> krisives: what would be sent over the wire? what would prevent a middleman sending the same thing over the wire?
  445. # [12:31] <krisives> Philip`'s scenario would keep the new technology from being created because the old technology can enable a flaw. The old (unsecure) tech should be deprecated
  446. # [12:32] <krisives> webben: All that would be sent over the wire is a hash of the INPUT data and a salt
  447. # [12:41] <Philip`> krisives: It would keep new technology from being created when its purpose is undermined by flaws in the current technology that it relies on and that hasn't been replaced yet
  448. # [12:43] <krisives> I think you're on a logically slippery slope there
  449. # [12:44] * gsnedders|work falls flat on his face
  450. # [12:45] <krisives> A neat solution for that attack would be to force the salt to be based on the content delivered
  451. # [12:45] <krisives> (or part of a composite salt)
  452. # [12:46] <krisives> So the server delivers you content and saves the salt of the content delivered in server session for later verification
  453. # [12:49] <Philip`> What is "the content"?
  454. # [12:50] <krisives> the document
  455. # [12:50] <Philip`> If you're using an insecure protocol like HTTP, the attacker could just replace the content of an external script that your page includes, to make it send the user's password to them
  456. # [12:50] <Philip`> even if the page itself can't change
  457. # [12:51] <krisives> By "replace the content of an external script", do you mean change a script on my host?
  458. # [12:52] <Philip`> I mean change the content delivered to the user in response to their request for the script
  459. # [12:53] <Philip`> (as a MITM attack)
  460. # [12:54] <krisives> The hashing wouldn't be done in a script
  461. # [12:54] <krisives> Thats the point of this "proposal"
  462. # [12:55] <Philip`> I mean change the script to do "onload = function () { document.getElementById('hashed-password').removeAttribute('hash'); }" or similar
  463. # [12:56] <Philip`> so that the user's browser won't hash the password
  464. # [12:57] <krisives> And instead submit to the attacker
  465. # [12:57] <Philip`> Yes, or send it unencrypted to the original server so the attacker can read it, or whatever
  466. # [12:58] <Philip`> (I'm assuming the attacker can read and modify all unencrypted content passing between the client and server)
  467. # [12:59] <Dashiva> If the attacker can control the content, you've already lost
  468. # [13:01] <Philip`> Not really, because you can use encryption to know that you're talking to the server and not the attacker
  469. # [13:01] <Philip`> but it seems unlikely to work unless the entire session is encrypted
  470. # [13:02] <Philip`> (and also you need some way to verify identities of servers, which doesn't work so well nowadays)
  471. # [13:03] <krisives> If something like this was adopted I would expect browsers to warn when sending unencrypted passwords more violently
  472. # [13:03] <zcorpan_> if you care about security, you should hand over the password in person
  473. # [13:03] <krisives> Or deprecated/remove the behaviour
  474. # [13:04] <Dashiva> Philip`: How can you verify anything when the attacker can just MITM anything?
  475. # [13:04] <Philip`> Dashiva: The attacker can't MITM anything, unless they put your brain in a vat and control all your sensory inputs
  476. # [13:04] <Dashiva> Any client-side code is provided by the attacker
  477. # [13:04] <krisives> Either way I find it hard to justify keeping the behaviour of sending the password as (obfusticated) text
  478. # [13:05] <Dashiva> Philip`: They can MITM anything on the client end of the browsing session
  479. # [13:08] <Philip`> Dashiva: They can MITM your internet connections for some period of time, but it's reasonable to assume that e.g. they didn't alter your installation of CD of Windows, and that means they didn't alter your OS's root certificate store, and you assume they didn't get Microsoft to install fake certificates, etc
  480. # [13:08] <Philip`> s/of CD/CD/
  481. # [13:08] <Dashiva> Philip`: Unsecure connection was a premise here, wasn't it?
  482. # [13:08] <Philip`> and you assume certificate authorities are perfect
  483. # [13:09] <krisives> I understand where everyone is going with this, but does it really justify continuing to send passwords as obfuscated plain text ?
  484. # [13:10] <Philip`> Dashiva: I think the premise was a combination of insecure and secure parts of the connection (e.g. sending the password 'securely')
  485. # [13:10] <Dashiva> I thought the premise was trying to do secure communication on an insecure connection
  486. # [13:11] <Philip`> TCP is an insecure connection but you can do secure communication over it using SSL
  487. # [13:11] <Dashiva> Because you control the code on your endpoint
  488. # [13:11] <krisives> Dashiva: Philip` believes that a more secure password authentication that doesn't send the password over the wire, and instead sends a hash, is not worth having because the MITM can just rely on deprecated behaviour
  489. # [13:11] <Dashiva> With a webpage, you're using code provided by an unknown party
  490. # [13:12] <krisives> Philip`: I remind you again that SSL is broken
  491. # [13:12] <Philip`> krisives: I don't think it justifies that, but I think the point is it doesn't justify spending effort on a solution that doesn't actually solve the problem in practice (due to flaws in the underlying technology) - the effort would be better spent on a solution that has a much better chance of working and isn't fundamentally broken, like SSL
  492. # [13:13] <krisives> I disagree, because we'll be putting faith once again in another technology like SSL, that when/if broken will give access to plaintext passwords again.
  493. # [13:13] <Philip`> (Uh, I mean that something like SSL isn't fundamentally broken)
  494. # [13:13] <Philip`> (and didn't mean to imply the opposite)
  495. # [13:14] <Philip`> Dashiva: You're using code provided by your favourite browser vendor, who might be able to implement features that ensure communication is secure
  496. # [13:14] <Philip`> in theory
  497. # [13:15] <Philip`> (though in practice there's so much flexibility allowed to scripts that the only solution that seems feasible is to encrypt the entire session)
  498. # [13:16] <zcorpan_> maybe the attacker could modify the browser and push it onto the user with autoupdate
  499. # [13:16] <krisives> Again though, "doesn't actually solve the problem in practice" only because of deprecated old technology
  500. # [13:17] <Philip`> "deprecated old technology" is what exists in practice so we have to deal with it :-)
  501. # [13:17] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Autoupdates are signed
  502. # [13:17] <Philip`> or at least I hope they are, because browser developers can't be idiots
  503. # [13:18] <Philip`> so they're guaranteed to be safe by the person who you originally trusted to download the browser from
  504. # [13:19] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: I'm an idiot.
  505. # [13:19] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: I mean collectively, not each individual
  506. # [13:20] * krisives is probably dumber
  507. # [13:20] <krisives> STUPID WAR!
  508. # [13:23] <zcorpan_> gsnedders|work: you're not a browser developer
  509. # [13:23] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan_: True.
  510. # [13:23] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan_: I just find their mistakes.
  511. # [13:25] <zcorpan_> have you found any autoupdate mistakes?
  512. # [13:25] <gsnedders|work> YEs
  513. # [13:25] <gsnedders|work> *Yes
  514. # [13:27] <Philip`> Were you responsible for finding the mistake that autoupdate didn't exist?
  515. # [13:29] <gsnedders|work> No
  516. # [13:29] <Philip`> I suppose that was a subtle one and easy to miss
  517. # [13:37] * Joins: kristallpirat (n=kristall@c-base/crew/kristall)
  518. # [13:38] <jgraham> Philip`: He didn't say he missed it just that he didn't have responsibility for noticing it
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  541. # [15:55] * gsnedders|work decides on domain for his new website
  542. # [15:56] <Rik`> gsnedders|work: someone told me that your outliner should give hints about where are "Untitled sections"
  543. # [15:57] <gsnedders|work> Rik`: I have plans to deal with a lot of the ambiguity. It just so happens that it also involves rewriting the entire thing :)
  544. # [15:59] <gsnedders|work> Rik`: And it also means being careful in IE about infinite loops :(
  545. # [15:59] <Rik`> in IE ?
  546. # [15:59] * Joins: webben1 (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-fcb8ab22b1b0013b)
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  548. # [16:00] <gsnedders|work> Rik`: New impl will be JS based
  549. # [16:00] <Rik`> oh
  550. # [16:00] <gsnedders|work> Rik`: IE can create circular DOMs.
  551. # [16:00] <Rik`> why JS based ?
  552. # [16:01] <gsnedders|work> Rik`: A lot of the features people have been asking for are very hard to do without modifying the source document in some way, or are only possible with scripting that can touch that document
  553. # [16:02] <Rik`> I can has a textarea to copy/paste ?
  554. # [16:02] <gsnedders|work> Rik`: Yeah, I guess I'll allow that
  555. # [16:04] <zcorpan_> gsnedders|work: there's a js implementation already
  556. # [16:04] <Rik`> thanks ! :)
  557. # [16:05] * Quits: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  558. # [16:05] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan_: But does it have an über-cool UI?
  559. # [16:05] <zcorpan_> gsnedders|work: no
  560. # [16:05] <zcorpan_> but you can implement your own ui for it
  561. # [16:06] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan_: Where is the impl?
  562. # [16:08] <zcorpan_> gsnedders|work: http://d.hatena.ne.jp/amachang/20090915/1252999677
  563. # [16:10] <jgraham> zcorpan_: No licensing information that I can see
  564. # [16:11] <gsnedders|work> zcorpan_: Also, IRC logs from before have me concluding that doesn't protect itself from IE
  565. # [16:12] <gsnedders|work> Also: I want decent blog software
  566. # [16:12] <zcorpan_> who cares about ie
  567. # [16:12] <zcorpan_> gsnedders|work: me too, and a pony
  568. # [16:13] <gsnedders|work> Habari claims to include a pony, but it still isn't decent.
  569. # [16:13] * jgraham doesn't want a pony
  570. # [16:13] <gsnedders|work> (but is nevertheless used on gsnedders.com)
  571. # [16:13] <gsnedders|work> (but is PHP and so is evil)
  572. # [16:13] <jgraham> They seem like a lot of effort to look after and in any case I am probably too tall to ride one
  573. # [16:13] <gsnedders|work> (w00t for languages without Unicode support)
  574. # [16:14] <jgraham> So it seems like it would mostly be a drag
  575. # [16:14] <jgraham> After the initial cuteness wore off
  576. # [16:14] * gsnedders|work thinks, then realizes it was a horse he rode a couple of years back
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  588. # [16:42] * hsivonen reads Noah Mendelsohn's slides
  589. # [16:42] <hsivonen> no 'con' about proprietary lock-in
  590. # [16:43] <hsivonen> also, is the implied assumption that HTML, SVG and Math WGs shouldn't have to coordinate?
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  592. # [16:44] <annevk2> not sure
  593. # [16:44] <annevk2> I wonder how that panel will go
  594. # [16:44] <annevk2> starts in an hour
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  596. # [16:46] <hsivonen> not many people on #tpac
  597. # [16:46] <hsivonen> is the session going to be IRC-minuted
  598. # [16:48] <annevk2> there's #tpac, #tp, and #tpac09
  599. # [16:48] <annevk2> #tpac seems most popular but only #tp has a topic
  600. # [16:49] <annevk2> not sure about minutes, but given how things went last year I'd assume so
  601. # [16:49] <annevk2> last year there was a live video channel as well I think
  602. # [16:49] <Dashiva> There were some sessions minuted in #webapps
  603. # [16:52] <hsivonen> I'm always puzzled when W3C specs like SVG and MathML are put forward as decentralized extensions without coordination
  604. # [16:52] <hsivonen> surely they are centralized at the W3C and should be coordinated
  605. # [16:53] <hsivonen> annevk2: thanks. I joined all those channel
  606. # [16:53] <hsivonen> s
  607. # [16:53] <hsivonen> I didn't find a link to a video or audio feed
  608. # [16:54] <annevk2> me neither
  609. # [16:54] <annevk2> I'm sure some more W3C staff will be around on IRC later
  610. # [16:54] <annevk2> they can prolly help out
  611. # [16:54] <gsnedders|work> I don't think there was any video last year
  612. # [16:55] <gsnedders|work> (And if there was, I guess it was incomplete due to losing power during the keynote)
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  615. # [16:55] <hsivonen> I've been to a TPAC where there was audio and the captioner couldn't keep up with TimBL
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  617. # [16:56] <gsnedders|work> 07, no?
  618. # [16:57] <hsivonen> maybe
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  627. # [19:20] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  628. # [19:20] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  632. # [21:22] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  633. # [21:22] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  685. # [23:28] <gsnedders> Hmm, debit card failing, yet bank says it is still active.
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  695. # [23:46] <dglazkov> have we pulled datagrid from html5?
  696. # [23:46] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@li30-216.members.linode.com)
  697. # [23:46] <dglazkov> is it gone-gone or just moved to another spec?
  698. # [23:46] <annevk2> it was commented out
  699. # [23:46] <annevk2> it was not stable enough
  700. # [23:46] <annevk2> I believe dhyatt is toying with an alternate design for it
  701. # [23:47] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
  702. # [23:47] <dglazkov> annevk2: good to know.
  703. # [23:48] <dglazkov> thanks
  704. # [23:49] <JonathanNeal> So it's commented out of the html5 spec?
  705. # [23:50] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.16.97)
  706. # [23:51] <annevk2> yes
  707. # [23:51] <annevk2> maybe it is no longer in the source either; I forgot
  708. # [23:52] <annevk2> it's still there
  709. # [23:52] <annevk2> v2datagrid
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  714. # [23:59] * lmorchard is now known as lmorchard|away
  715. # Session Close: Thu Nov 05 00:00:00 2009

The end :)