/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-11-06 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:01] <Philip`> remysharp: <video controls="">
  5. # [00:01] <remysharp> really? that doesn't look very "xhtml"ly
  6. # [00:01] <Philip`> is equivalent to <video controls> and therefore works and is allowed
  7. # [00:01] <remysharp> sure
  8. # [00:02] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-microsyntaxes.html#boolean-attributes
  9. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> remysharp: If you're doing HTML syntax, just do the plain name. It's the easiest and works great.
  10. # [00:02] <remysharp> I'm looking for the syntax that matches the <option selected="selected"> type of syntax from xhtml
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  12. # [00:02] * remysharp checking your link
  13. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> <option selected>
  14. # [00:02] <Philip`> "If the attribute is present, its value must either be the empty string or a value that is an ASCII case-insensitive match for the attribute's canonical name, with no leading or trailing whitespace."
  15. # [00:02] <remysharp> cool
  16. # [00:02] <remysharp> thanks for that
  17. # [00:03] <remysharp> so it's either "" or controls="controls"
  18. # [00:03] <Philip`> Yep
  19. # [00:03] <remysharp> ta :)
  20. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> If you need a value, yeah.
  21. # [00:03] <Philip`> or controls="CoNtRoLs" if you fancy
  22. # [00:03] <nessy> lol
  23. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> <p leettext="lEeTtExT">
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  27. # [00:06] <annevk2> note that you can write selected="" in XHTML too
  28. # [00:06] <annevk2> way shorter
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  51. # [00:42] <j^> hi, why does the html sanitizer from http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse/python/src/html5lib/sanitizer.py
  52. # [00:42] <j^> not include html5 tags
  53. # [00:43] <j^> like video and audio
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  81. # [01:24] <annevk2> Hixie, can I publish your old CSSValues proposal?
  82. # [01:25] <Hixie> publish?
  83. # [01:26] <annevk2> make it public somehow
  84. # [01:26] <annevk2> not sure where to put it
  85. # [01:26] <Hixie> isn't it already public
  86. # [01:26] <annevk2> no it's member only
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  88. # [01:26] <Hixie> url?
  89. # [01:26] <annevk2> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2002OctDec/0264.html
  90. # [01:26] <Hixie> yes go ahead
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  97. # [01:34] <annevk2> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Nov/0007.html
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  99. # [01:34] <annevk2> hopefully I didn't make any mistakes when copying
  100. # [01:34] <annevk2> oh, line wrapping, but who cares
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  104. # [01:59] <JonathanNeal> Goodnight everybody!!! -_-
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  183. # [06:43] <othermaciej> hello everyone
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  187. # [07:00] <Hixie> dbaron: your blog post has a typo in the last paragraph (they're/their)
  188. # [07:01] <dbaron> Hixie, fixed, thanks
  189. # [07:01] <Hixie> np
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  210. # [08:35] <cardona507> hello -anyone awake?
  211. # [08:35] <Hixie> vaguely
  212. # [08:36] <othermaciej> sort of
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  218. # [08:40] <cardona507> i am interested in the 3d tomorrow morning
  219. # [08:42] <cardona507> what browser are they showing it in?
  220. # [08:43] <othermaciej> dunno!
  221. # [08:43] <othermaciej> something that supports WebGL presumably
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  225. # [08:46] <cardona507> my hotel's web connection sux - :-/
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  227. # [08:55] <hsivonen> how is X3D+JS different from any script-specific markup?
  228. # [08:56] <hsivonen> e.g. the the stuff Bespin uses to initialize its layout
  229. # [08:56] <hsivonen> or Ubiquity XForms
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  232. # [09:12] * pesla is now known as peslafk
  233. # [09:14] <othermaciej> it's different from Bespin in that there is a pre-existing format with which they wish to be compatible
  234. # [09:14] <othermaciej> (though not different from a script-base XForms impl in that way)
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  241. # [09:39] <peslafk> http://twitter.com/fronteers09/statuses/5474171543
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  243. # [09:44] <othermaciej> an optimist!
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  245. # [09:50] <peslafk> It seems that Douglas is having a rant on html5 and the W3C at the Fronteers congres
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  247. # [10:18] <hsivonen> Crockford?
  248. # [10:20] <hsivonen> what's the right way to make MacPorts guntar the default tar on Snow Leopard?
  249. # [10:21] <hsivonen> IIRC, earlier I just have the gnu stuff installed and it took precedence without me touching files that belong to the system or to macports
  250. # [10:22] <hsivonen> hmm. MacPorts has edited my .profile twice
  251. # [10:23] <hsivonen> apparently gnutar in macports is now called 'gnutar' instead of 'tar'
  252. # [10:24] <hsivonen> grr. is this some kind of GPL hate on Apple's part? not shipping gnutar by default
  253. # [10:24] <hsivonen> it's like on ancient Solaris system where you had to ask for gnutar instead of the lousy tar
  254. # [10:24] <hsivonen> *systems
  255. # [10:26] <hsivonen> woohoo. at last some action on enabling Java profiling in Eclipse on Mac OS X: http://wiki.eclipse.org/Agent_Controller_on_MAC_OS
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  259. # [10:34] <othermaciej> what is Fronteers?
  260. # [10:35] <othermaciej> and why does Doug hate HTML5?
  261. # [10:35] <othermaciej> hsivonen: Apple leans towards BSD userland utilties when they are not grossly deficient comapred to the GNU version
  262. # [10:36] <hsivonen> othermaciej: as I understand it, he doesn't like the way Same Origin works when you include different-Origin scripts
  263. # [10:36] <hsivonen> othermaciej: that is, if you include a mashup script from another site, it gets to run in your Origin
  264. # [10:37] <othermaciej> hsivonen: that was indeed a grave error in the long-ago past that we now can't fix...
  265. # [10:37] <peslafk> hsivonen: Crockford, yes
  266. # [10:37] <peslafk> othermaciej: It's a dutch frontend engineering club
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  268. # [10:38] <peslafk> othermaciej: http://twitter.com/#search?q=fronteers09%20crockford
  269. # [10:39] <peslafk> And all this is happening @ http://fronteers.nl/congres/2009/information
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  271. # [10:41] <othermaciej> I've been busy this week at TPAC trying to influence what's in HTML5 instead of sniping from the sidelines
  272. # [10:43] <othermaciej> hsivonen: does he really seriously think it's in any way feasible to change that at this point?
  273. # [10:43] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I mean, I guess it would be cool to have *a* way to have scripts from a foreign site that don't run in your origin, but HTML5 has sandboxed iframes for that
  274. # [10:44] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I think it's better if I don't try to speculate what he really believes.
  275. # [10:44] <othermaciej> fair enough
  276. # [10:45] <peslafk> It was a bit of a rant, with non-argumented oneliners
  277. # [10:49] <erlehmann> peslafk, so why does he hate it ? after all, who could be better HTML devs than browser people ?
  278. # [10:49] <hsivonen> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/02/21/the-bolero-of-troll
  279. # [10:50] <peslafk> erlehmann: I failed to really see his points, as html5 is only a spec and the browser vendors are the ones implementing. Ranting should really be aimed at them
  280. # [10:51] <peslafk> erlehmann: He stated that the more complicated the DOM is, the more insecure it'll be. And "html5 adds stuff to the DOM".
  281. # [10:53] <hsivonen> I've been reading http://www.amazon.co.uk/Coders-Work-Reflections-Craft-Programming/dp/1430219483
  282. # [10:53] <hsivonen> in that book, Crockford gets some book space for talking about his ideals for the Web
  283. # [10:53] <hsivonen> but he doesn't propose a realistic path for getting there
  284. # [10:54] <Philip`> Does he propose an unrealistic path?
  285. # [10:54] <othermaciej> adding features to the Web (whether DOM or not) is always a potential security risk
  286. # [10:54] <othermaciej> but the alternative is stagnation
  287. # [10:56] <hsivonen> Philip`: "make it smaller"
  288. # [10:56] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  289. # [10:56] <jgraham> Your approach to the future of the web will fail because: (x) It requires a mass migration of existing content to fit the new model
  290. # [10:56] <jgraham> You're right, we need a chart
  291. # [10:56] <hsivonen> (the whole thing felt quite out of place in the book, btw)
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  294. # [10:58] <peslafk> http://twitter.com/pesla/status/5475096734
  295. # [10:59] <peslafk> Thanks for the URL hsivonen.
  296. # [10:59] <hsivonen> peslafk: you're welcome
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  300. # [11:08] <erlehmann> peslafk, what does he want instead ?
  301. # [11:08] <peslafk> erlehmann: There is no counter proposal
  302. # [11:09] <erlehmann> so its more liek U ALL SUCK LOL
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  305. # [11:21] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/ - "Names beginning with the string "xml", or with any string which would match (('X'|'x') ('M'|'m') ('L'|'l')), are reserved for standardization in this or future versions of this specification."
  306. # [11:21] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-names/ - "A namespace (or more precisely, a namespace binding) is declared using a family of reserved attributes. Such an attribute's name must either be xmlns or begin xmlns:."
  307. # [11:21] <Philip`> That seems a bit contradictory
  308. # [11:22] <Philip`> given that "this or future versions of this specification" != "any XML related specification"
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  333. # [14:07] <Dashiva> "It would be nice if there were audio or video [from TPAC]".
  334. # [14:07] <Dashiva> Have we learned nothing?
  335. # [14:08] <jgraham> Dashiva: Where is that from?
  336. # [14:08] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@72-254-86-128.client.stsn.net) ("Leaving...")
  337. # [14:09] <Dashiva> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Nov/0154.html
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  339. # [14:12] <csarven1> Consider <dl><dt>Full name</dt><dd>Toby Inkster</dd></dl> <dl><dt>Location</dt><dd>UK</dd></dl> vs. <span>Toby Inkster</span> <span>UK</span>, does the context help the screen reader user?
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  341. # [14:12] * csarven1 is now known as csarven
  342. # [14:12] <Dashiva> Which context?
  343. # [14:13] <csarven> Full name, Location
  344. # [14:13] <jgraham> csarven: Depending on what you are asking, I doubt it
  345. # [14:13] <csarven> Presumably one would know that 'Toby Inkster' is a person because it suggests 'Full name'
  346. # [14:13] <Dashiva> UK isn't completely obvious
  347. # [14:13] <csarven> Ok.. say.. "Texas"
  348. # [14:14] <csarven> <span>Texas</span> <span>Texas</span>
  349. # [14:14] <jgraham> csarven: Presumably one would know that in the same way that a non-screenreader user would
  350. # [14:14] <jgraham> By the general context of the page
  351. # [14:14] <jgraham> If it's not obvious from the general context then yes it is better to be explicit
  352. # [14:14] <csarven> It is a profile page
  353. # [14:15] <jgraham> It seems quite easy to decide. Just read the page aloud to someone and see if they understand it
  354. # [14:15] <csarven> well, when you have several data piled up, it gets harder
  355. # [14:16] <csarven> It is like saying "foo bar baz"
  356. # [14:16] <jgraham> I don't understand why this would be any harder for a screenreader user than anyone else
  357. # [14:16] * hsivonen neither
  358. # [14:16] <jgraham> (apart from the general difficulty of having to use a screenreader)
  359. # [14:16] <csarven> Because the information is read linearly
  360. # [14:17] <erlehmann> csarven, use a microdata facility for that?
  361. # [14:17] <jgraham> Are you saying that there are significant visual clues that would help disambiguate?
  362. # [14:17] <csarven> erlehmann I don't want to leave out microformats/microdata/rdfa discussion
  363. # [14:17] <csarven> Just plain HTML
  364. # [14:18] <erlehmann> did you mean: i WANT to leave out
  365. # [14:18] <csarven> jgraham I think so.
  366. # [14:18] <erlehmann> just sayin …
  367. # [14:18] <csarven> erlehmann Oops :)
  368. # [14:18] <csarven> Yes, I want to leave that out for now
  369. # [14:18] <jgraham> Anyway, I stand by what I said. Read it aloud to someone. If they understand then it is fine. If not then it is not fine
  370. # [14:18] <csarven> heh
  371. # [14:19] * hsivonen gathers the courage to look at nested document.write line numbers again
  372. # [14:20] <gsnedders> hsivonen, You'll regret it :P
  373. # [14:20] <hsivonen> hmm. what's a good way to cause a script error that doesn't stop the execution of the script
  374. # [14:21] <hsivonen> or warning
  375. # [14:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: document.all in gecko
  376. # [14:21] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks!
  377. # [14:22] * hsivonen downgrades the test case to quirks mode
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  379. # [14:27] <hsivonen> sigh. my line number patch is still horribly wrong
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  467. # [18:26] <JonathanNeal> Goodday everybody! \o/
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  571. # [22:49] <yoshu> I'm second guessing my implementation of HTML5, would anyone care to comment the markup of this page http://beta.tucsonlabs.com/articles ??
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  575. # [22:50] <JonathanNeal> yoshu, I will.
  576. # [22:50] <yoshu> JonathanNeal: thanks
  577. # [22:51] <yoshu> I wasn't sure if I should separate each entry into a section or if it would work as is
  578. # [22:51] <JonathanNeal> What's this about NON_INITIAL_DOT_SEGMENT
  579. # [22:52] <JonathanNeal> I haven't seen that before.
  580. # [22:52] <JonathanNeal> I'm wondering if it is because of your /./ in the url?
  581. # [22:53] <JonathanNeal> It's up to you whether or not you want to wrap your header, aside, and article into a single section or article.
  582. # [22:53] <yoshu> JonathanNeal: I took the /./ out - didn't realize that was a problem
  583. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Has anyone seen Lachy yet today? Is he still alive?
  584. # [22:54] <yoshu> JonathanNeal: thanks, I thought I could do without the extra markup, but wasn't sure if it was correct
  585. # [22:55] <JonathanNeal> Your usage of h3.excerpt is kinda weird to me.
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  587. # [22:56] <yoshu> JonathanNeal: that's left over from my previous design, I'll probably be replacing it with <p>
  588. # [22:56] <JonathanNeal> By sticking your heading in the aside, your article doesn't have a heading itself. Whereas I might have wrapped the whole <header>, <aside>, and <article> in one larger <article>, replacing the inner <article> with something else.
  589. # [22:57] <Hixie> TabAtkins: he was on irc briefly earlier
  590. # [22:57] <JonathanNeal> I really didn't look it over too carefuly, but I always check against http://html5.validator.nu/ http://validator.w3.org/ and http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/
  591. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Did he seem okay?
  592. # [22:57] <Hixie> he didn't talk
  593. # [22:57] <JonathanNeal> I don't design to meet thoses tests, but I use those as guides to help me.
  594. # [22:57] <Hixie> so no....
  595. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> Well, he was alive enough to get on IRC. Hrm.
  596. # [22:58] * gsnedders_ ought to update that
  597. # [22:58] <yoshu> JonathanNeal: the header isn't inside the aside, but thanks for the help, and I'll check out those links
  598. # [22:58] <JonathanNeal> yoshu, I said I would move them all into one <article>
  599. # [22:58] <gsnedders_> You can get at contentDocument of an iframe regardless of whether it's cross-origin, right?
  600. # [22:58] <gsnedders_> iframe interaction has no limitations based on origins, right?
  601. # [22:58] <gsnedders_> (both ways)
  602. # [22:59] <JonathanNeal> and by "your heading in the aside" I meant the h3, not the <header><h1>
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  604. # [23:00] <yoshu> JonathanNeal: yeah it would probably make more sense to do that. - gotcha on the h3 tag
  605. # [23:01] <JonathanNeal> :-) it looks good though, yea.
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  607. # [23:01] <yoshu> JonathanNeal: thanks :)
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  609. # [23:02] <jgraham> gsnedders_: There are some cross origin restrictions on iframes
  610. # [23:03] <gsnedders_> jgraham: What?
  611. # [23:03] * Joins: mat_t_ (n=mattomas@80-225-9-175.dynamic.dial.as9105.com)
  612. # [23:03] <jgraham> Well a child iframe can't read properties from a different origin parent
  613. # [23:03] <annevk2> TabAtkins, he's okayish
  614. # [23:03] <annevk2> Lachy, ^^
  615. # [23:03] <jgraham> I don't recall what the restrictions the other way are but I guess there must be some
  616. # [23:04] <jgraham> Otherwise you could load a site into an iframe and read the DOM which could contain arbitary sensitive data
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  618. # [23:05] * jgraham wonders what is wrong with Lachy
  619. # [23:05] <gsnedders_> Section 6.3.1?
  620. # [23:05] * gsnedders_ guesses effects of drink
  621. # [23:05] <Lachy> jgraham, I was a little sick last night. I'm getting better now
  622. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> annevk2: Thanks, that's reassuring.
  623. # [23:05] <jgraham> gsnedders_: I don't have the spec open right now
  624. # [23:05] <Lachy> I suspect it was food poisening
  625. # [23:06] <Lachy> annevk2, was there something specific you were pointing me at?
  626. # [23:06] * jgraham decides it is too late at night to try and understand imaginary namespaces
  627. # [23:06] <annevk2> da question
  628. # [23:06] <annevk2> try to understand unicorns
  629. # [23:06] <annevk2> it's the key to TPAC
  630. # [23:06] <annevk2> at least this year
  631. # [23:07] <gsnedders_> jgraham: You don't have the spec open? Wow. What's wrong with you? :P
  632. # [23:07] <Dashiva> Has anyone found lastweek yet?
  633. # [23:07] <annevk2> well, or narwhals if you're Hixie
  634. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> UnicornML is the breakout technology of TPAC.
  635. # [23:07] <Dashiva> Or rather, the fake one
  636. # [23:07] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@80-225-9-175.dynamic.dial.as9105.com)
  637. # [23:07] <annevk2> only the real
  638. # [23:07] <jgraham> gsnedders_: I have to keep rebooting my laptop and it is slow to load
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  640. # [23:07] * Lachy isn't sure which question
  641. # [23:07] <Dashiva> annevk2: Was he under the couch?
  642. # [23:08] <gsnedders_> jgraham: Seemingly you can access the frames attribute, which is odd
  643. # [23:08] <annevk2> let me just say that it was not pretty
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  645. # [23:09] <gsnedders_> jgraham: So you can get at sibling browsing contexts, but only do anything with them if they're same-origin. Wow.
  646. # [23:09] <gsnedders_> That's screwy.
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  650. # [23:10] <gsnedders_> Hmm, I can't see what doesn't forbid contentWindow from working.
  651. # [23:12] * Quits: miketaylr (n=miketayl@38.117.156.163) (Remote closed the connection)
  652. # [23:12] <jgraham> gsnedders_: You can get at the browsing context but you can't read the properties
  653. # [23:12] <gsnedders_> So you can't get at the document, for example?
  654. # [23:13] <jgraham> So I guess if you have A -> B -> C whre A and C are same origin than A can read C's DOM but not B's
  655. # [23:13] <gsnedders_> So I can't do var f = document.createElement("iframe"); f.location="http://example.com"; f.contentDocument.getElementByTagName("html")[0]?
  656. # [23:13] <jgraham> gsnedders_: iirc no
  657. # [23:14] <jgraham> gsnedders_: I think it would be a security hole if you could
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  660. # [23:14] <jgraham> because I could load your.bank.example in an iframe and transfer money to my account, for example
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  663. # [23:15] <jgraham> (assuming an existing session and no extra prevention measures on the banks side)
  664. # [23:16] <gsnedders_> Right, I guess that's true
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  668. # [23:17] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
  669. # [23:17] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@72-254-61-132.client.stsn.net)
  670. # [23:20] <gsnedders_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cbody%3E%3Ciframe%3E%3C%2Fiframe%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%0Avar%20iframe%20%3D%20window%5B0%5D%3B%0Aiframe.location%20%3D%20'http%3A%2F%2Fexample.com'%0Aiframe.onload%20%3D%20function()%7B%0Aw(%22Foo%22)%0A%7D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E%0A
  671. # [23:20] <gsnedders_> How come that outputs nothing to log?
  672. # [23:20] <gsnedders_> Oh, duh
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  675. # [23:28] <zcorpan> Philip`: can i forward http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20091106#l-305 to the xml core wg?
  676. # [23:31] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (n=blurstof@168.203.117.66) ("Leaving...")
  677. # [23:35] <Dashiva> I wonder if krijnh has stats on who annotates the logs
  678. # [23:38] <zcorpan> i do
  679. # [23:38] <zcorpan> there you go, a datum
  680. # [23:38] <Dashiva> annotations(zcorpan,all time) > 0
  681. # [23:39] <Dashiva> That's so useful!
  682. # [23:39] * Quits: nessy (n=Adium@72-254-90-171.client.stsn.net) ("Leaving.")
  683. # [23:41] * Joins: nessy (n=Adium@72-254-90-171.client.stsn.net)
  684. # [23:41] <Philip`> zcorpan: Feel free to do so, if it seems worth caring about
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  686. # [23:43] <Dashiva> zcorpan: I would be interested in hearing their non-response, at least
  687. # [23:43] * Quits: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@c83-252-226-0.bredband.comhem.se)
  688. # [23:43] <zcorpan> sent
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  696. # Session Close: Sat Nov 07 00:00:00 2009

The end :)