/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-11-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Nov 08 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * Philip` thought Up was surprisingly sad
  4. # [00:03] <zcorpan_> oh now i remembered my passphrase
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  13. # [00:55] * Philip` never knew that commenting on a spec could be so fraught with difficulties
  14. # [00:56] <Philip`> Looks like there's been more comments commenting on the process of commenting on the MathML spec, than there were comments on the spec
  15. # [00:59] <AryehGregor> Hmm, it seems like someone has checked in RDFa support to MediaWiki.
  16. # [00:59] <Philip`> What does "support" mean?
  17. # [01:00] <AryehGregor> RDFa attributes on elements seem to be whitelisted in user input. Although I haven't looked very hard: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/58712
  18. # [01:00] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure this actually allows valid RDFa to be output, since it's not namespaced or anything?
  19. # [01:01] <gsnedders> Valid RDFa? It relies upon namespaces, how can it be valid when it relies upon a DTD? :)
  20. # [01:01] <AryehGregor> Eh?
  21. # [01:01] <AryehGregor> Conformant RDFa, if you like. I didn't mean valid in the XML sense.
  22. # [01:02] <gsnedders> I know what you mean, but I'm just being silly about the whole problem with validity and RDFa :)
  23. # [01:03] <Philip`> "RDFa properties allow URIs" - um, no they don't
  24. # [01:04] <Philip`> (except about and resource)
  25. # [01:04] <Philip`> (which don't allow only URIs)
  26. # [01:06] <Philip`> Also: using a regep to detect 'unsafe' attribute values that might run scripts?
  27. # [01:06] <Philip`> *regexp
  28. # [01:06] <AryehGregor> Yes, I commented on that separately.
  29. # [01:07] <gsnedders> html5lib's sanitizer does that too
  30. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> MediaWiki already has a whitelist of safe URL protocols, that should be used if anything is.
  31. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> Regex is fine, just it needs to be whitelist-based, not blacklist.
  32. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> That's assuming any of these URLs can actually be activated by the user, though, which I doubt.
  33. # [01:07] * Quits: mitnavn (n=mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn) ("Leaving...")
  34. # [01:10] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#rdfa-attributes lists what the attributes are meant to contain
  35. # [01:10] <AryehGregor> Well, the implementation basically allows any contents.
  36. # [01:10] <AryehGregor> The comment is misleading.
  37. # [01:11] <AryehGregor> My question is, does this actually allow conformant RDFa documents to be generated?
  38. # [01:11] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure. You don't need namespace declarations or other fancy stuff?
  39. # [01:11] <Philip`> You do need namespace declarations
  40. # [01:11] <AryehGregor> Where does it say that?
  41. # [01:11] <Philip`> Most of the stuff uses CURIEs, which require you to declare prefixes
  42. # [01:11] <gsnedders> They just make RDFa 120% more sexy.
  43. # [01:12] <AryehGregor> It seems like CURIEs are optional, you can just use the full URL if you feel like it?
  44. # [01:12] <Philip`> You can't (except in about and resource)
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  46. # [01:12] <gsnedders> You can only use the full URL if you have e.g., xmlns:http="http:"
  47. # [01:12] <AryehGregor> Can you give me a link to that in the spec so I can object properly? :)
  48. # [01:12] <AryehGregor> This is freaking long.
  49. # [01:12] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#P_curie
  50. # [01:12] <Philip`> is the syntax for CURIEs
  51. # [01:13] <Philip`> which applies to rel/rev/property/datatype/typeof attributes
  52. # [01:14] <gsnedders> RDFa is a wonderly well-designed.
  53. # [01:14] <webben> AryehGregor: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#col_Metainformation says the meta attribs must (mostly) use curies
  54. # [01:14] <Philip`> property="http://..." will get interpreted as a prefix "http" and reference "//..."
  55. # [01:14] <Philip`> and not as a proper URL
  56. # [01:16] <Philip`> The script-detection thing seems both useless (browsers aren't going to execute the URLs identified by RDFa attributes) and insufficient (if browsers did execute them, you could write <div xmlns:foo="jav" foo:property="ascript:alert('oops')">
  57. # [01:16] <Philip`> )
  58. # [01:17] <Philip`> Um
  59. # [01:17] <Philip`> That's totally wrong
  60. # [01:17] <Philip`> <div xmlns:foo="jav" property="foo:ascript:alert('oops')">
  61. # [01:17] <Philip`> (perhaps with more percent-encoding to be strictly legal)
  62. # [01:19] <AryehGregor> To allow microdata, we'd just have to permit the item* attributes, right?
  63. # [01:21] <Philip`> Yes
  64. # [01:24] <Philip`> AryehGregor: An unrelated probably bug: Looks like the code is trying to filter 'bad' rel/rev values, but rel/rev aren't allowed by the attribute whitelist anyway so that's pointless
  65. # [01:24] <Philip`> *probable
  66. # [01:25] <Philip`> Anyway, the xmlns: thing kind of kills it unless you only want to use prefixes that are already declared in the page template
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  68. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> We could whitelist xmlns:* if we really wanted to.
  69. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> I, of course, will argue we should support microdata instead. :)
  70. # [01:26] <Philip`> Why "of course"?
  71. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> Why not "of course"?
  72. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure why we need either, actually.
  73. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> He didn't give a reason.
  74. # [01:26] * AryehGregor is also trying to persuade someone in #wikimedia-tech to turn on HTML5 output for Wikipedia already, but they all claim they want to go to sleep
  75. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> (maybe tomorrow)
  76. # [01:27] * Joins: mitnavn (n=mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn)
  77. # [01:28] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Why support a new and largely untested technology with precisely zero consumer support, like microdata?
  78. # [01:28] * Parts: gustav3d (n=no@90-231-37-223-no154.tbcn.telia.com)
  79. # [01:29] <gsnedders> </body><title>foo</title> creates the title in the body element, right?
  80. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> Why support RDFa if it might die to microdata?
  81. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> Why support any of this stuff? I'm not sure what the use-case is for us.
  82. # [01:29] <Philip`> I don't think you should support either :-)
  83. # [01:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: Go look at that for me.
  84. # [01:29] <Philip`> gsnedders: No
  85. # [01:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: Pretty please?
  86. # [01:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: With a cherry on top?
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  88. # [01:30] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Seems better to argue against RDFa due to lack of justification of the complexity it'll introduce
  89. # [01:31] <AryehGregor> See, I don't know why he's introducing it at all.
  90. # [01:31] <JonathanNeal> Hi everyone! \o/
  91. # [01:32] <Philip`> rather than due to a preference for microdata
  92. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> Hi! \o/
  93. # [01:32] <Philip`> Argh, stop being so happy >:-(
  94. # [01:32] <Philip`> gsnedders: I don't like cherries
  95. # [01:34] <Philip`> AryehGregor: (By "complexity" I suppose I'm thinking of the complexity of trying to support it properly, rather than badly hacking in a few attributes into a whitelist, though I'm not really sure what "properly" would mean)
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  98. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> Philip`, the support here is just letting people add it, i.e., not stripping it out as unrecognized. Not very complicated.
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  100. # [01:38] * gsnedders thinks one of zcorpan's tests is wrong
  101. # [01:38] * gsnedders blames zcorpan
  102. # [01:38] <gsnedders> <script><!--<script --></script> --- how much of that is script contents?
  103. # [01:39] <gsnedders> html5lib and me agree that the content is <!--<script -->
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  107. # [01:45] <AryehGregor> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/58712#c4406
  108. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> Hmm, looks like the use-case might be something like outputting EXIF data for images in structured format, stuff like that.
  109. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> That could be legitimate.
  110. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> Meaning we would have to actually make a decision on RDFa vs. microdata.
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  112. # [01:52] <JonathanNeal> Philip`, I'm sorry for being so happy. I'll be more sad, just for you.
  113. # [01:52] * JonathanNeal moans because he never feels secure using the <section> tag.
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  289. # [10:07] <jgraham> gsnedders: OK. Did you ask Gerald?
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  291. # [10:10] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I assume that one of the requirements for "distributed extensibility" is that it not require support from browser makers
  292. # [10:11] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  293. # [10:11] <jgraham> So I asume a gol is that I can take something like SVG and implement it in something like IE using something like Flash + Javascript
  294. # [10:11] <jgraham> *goal
  295. # [10:11] <danbri> hi folks. should html5 video element work in Safari 4.0.3? testing here suggests not - http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/buttons/html5/playertest.html#
  296. # [10:12] * danbri trying to wire it to a remote on my iphone via xmpp
  297. # [10:12] <jgraham> Without the IE team having to add in explicit support themselves
  298. # [10:13] <jgraham> danbri: wfm in 4.0.2
  299. # [10:14] <jgraham> danbri: (on 10.5)
  300. # [10:14] * danbri in osx 10.5.8
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  303. # [10:17] <jgraham> danbri: 10.5.8 here
  304. # [10:23] <jgraham> danbri: Oh it's an ogg ile. You'll need the Xiph quicktime bits installed for that to work in Safari
  305. # [10:23] <jgraham> *file
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  333. # [10:36] <krijnh> Dashiva: nope, I don't
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  340. # [10:40] <danbri> thanks jgraham!
  341. # [10:48] <danbri> jgraham, that fixed it yep...
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  345. # [10:56] <gsnedders> jgraham: No
  346. # [10:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: But I don't have any way of asking him
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  358. # [11:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: OK Maybe we should phone him or something then
  359. # [11:55] * jgraham is going to the shop
  360. # [12:00] * gsnedders was going to buy tickets soon...
  361. # [12:01] <gsnedders> Before heading over to Tornby, but I think it's probably too late to safely o I want there
  362. # [12:03] * gsnedders has one known issue in his html5lib update
  363. # [12:03] <gsnedders> Concecutive text nodes
  364. # [12:08] * gsnedders snarls at people who use other people's phones thereby breaking caller id
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  371. # [13:05] * gsnedders hopes he correctly managed to buy tickets
  372. # [13:06] <gsnedders> (Actually, I don't really doubt it)
  373. # [13:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: As long as we got the English version
  374. # [13:20] <jgraham> There is also a Swedish version at 15:30
  375. # [13:21] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yes
  376. # [13:22] <gsnedders> jgraham: You get any idea how to deal with adjacent text nodes in html5lib?
  377. # [13:24] <jgraham> gsnedders: Not without looking at the code
  378. # [13:24] <jgraham> What is the problem? That we should get multipl text nodes in some cases?
  379. # [13:25] <gsnedders> yes
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  381. # [13:27] <gsnedders> It's the reason for the only test failure I have here now
  382. # [13:27] <jgraham> In general it's not something that we support
  383. # [13:27] <jgraham> Since e.g. elementtree has no way to represent it
  384. # [13:27] <jgraham> But obviously DOM does
  385. # [13:28] <gsnedders> Right
  386. # [13:28] <jgraham> Oh I see you just filed a bug on that
  387. # [13:28] <gsnedders> I meant to a while ago
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  389. # [13:28] * jgraham would prefer if the parser always created normalised text nodes
  390. # [13:29] <jgraham> i.e. never created adjacent ones
  391. # [13:29] <gsnedders> hsivonen was against that on perf grounds,IIRC
  392. # [13:29] <jgraham> I think that is a bit of a silly argument given how fast parsing ypically is compared to layout
  393. # [13:29] <jgraham> +t
  394. # [13:30] <gsnedders> Indeed, and in html5lib's case it would be slower
  395. # [13:30] <gsnedders> It suits one implementation strategy, and only one
  396. # [13:32] <jgraham> gsnedders: So it is quite easy to see how to prevent html5lib always coalescing adjacent text nodes
  397. # [13:32] * Joins: rauchg (n=rauchg@gprs25.swisscom-mobile.ch)
  398. # [13:32] <jgraham> But I guess the prolem is to prevent it happening only sometimes?
  399. # [13:32] <gsnedders> In the way the spec wants?
  400. # [13:32] <jgraham> gsnedders: No
  401. # [13:32] <jgraham> I expect
  402. # [13:33] <gsnedders> You want to create a single text node when the text node was the last thing inserted into the document
  403. # [13:33] <gsnedders> Gah. git blame source is slow.
  404. # [13:34] <jgraham> gsnedders: We could have a flag in the treebuilder I guess
  405. # [13:34] <jgraham> But it seems ugly :(
  406. # [13:34] <gsnedders> But then we need to make sure it is always right
  407. # [13:34] <gsnedders> And that's ugly and slow.
  408. # [13:34] <jgraham> Yes
  409. # [13:34] <gsnedders> I think the correct solution is bitch at the spec.
  410. # [13:34] <jgraham> I tebnd to agree
  411. # [13:34] <jgraham> *tend
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  413. # [13:39] <gsnedders> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1333&to=1334&;context=
  414. # [13:40] <gsnedders> Date: Tue Mar 4 07:25:17 2008 +0000
  415. # [13:42] <gsnedders> Ah, it's Philip`'s fault
  416. # [13:42] <gsnedders> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-March/014148.html
  417. # [13:45] <gsnedders> No, that's not the change.
  418. # [13:46] * Joins: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  419. # [13:46] <danbri> video question , ... if i'm playing a video, then .js alters the src= url to point to another ... what's the proper way to get the new video playing?
  420. # [13:47] <gsnedders> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2123&to=2124&context=10
  421. # [13:47] <gsnedders> There's the change.
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  423. # [13:48] <gsnedders> Date: Fri Aug 29 09:24:33 2008 +0000
  424. # [13:49] <gsnedders> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0890.html
  425. # [13:52] <gsnedders> danbri: It should start playing once there is enough data
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  428. # [13:54] <danbri> ah ok, not super snappy then
  429. # [13:54] * danbri wired my iphone up as a remote
  430. # [13:56] <danbri> doing this:
  431. # [13:56] <danbri> var avElement = document.getElementById('content');
  432. # [13:56] <danbri> avElement.src = trailers[ix]['file'];
  433. # [13:56] <danbri> avElement.play();
  434. # [13:56] <danbri> }
  435. # [14:10] * Quits: mitnavn (n=mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  436. # [14:19] <Dashiva> Oh my
  437. # [14:19] <Dashiva> This gives an interesting result in Firefox: javascript:alert((function(){ return 2 * 3; }).toString())
  438. # [14:25] <gsnedders> I wonder how I can redesign gsnedders.com to not make it suck
  439. # [14:25] <Dashiva> Drop shadows
  440. # [14:26] <Dashiva> And a font that isn't all pixely
  441. # [14:26] <gsnedders> That's not quite what I was thinking of.
  442. # [14:27] <gsnedders> I'm kinda tempted to finally use http://stuff.gsnedders.com/tri.html
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  445. # [14:49] <gsnedders> Setting HTMLMediaEelent.src should cause the new src to load, right?
  446. # [14:50] <Dashiva> "If a src attribute of a media element is set or changed, the user agent must invoke the media element's media element load algorithm."
  447. # [14:51] <gsnedders> Yeah, which makes me think it should
  448. # [14:51] <gsnedders> Then why in both Safari and Firefox does it require .load() to do anything?
  449. # [14:51] * gsnedders guesses a spec change seeming they both fail the same way
  450. # [14:53] <danbri> thanks for debugging this gsnedders!
  451. # [14:53] <danbri> i can now turn over html5 videos using my handheld apple remote, or my iphone :)
  452. # [14:54] <gsnedders> So your handheld apple remote, or your handheld apple remote? :)
  453. # [14:54] <danbri> (the former with an apple-event/xmpp bridge running on laptop)
  454. # [14:54] * danbri has two hands
  455. # [14:54] <gsnedders> But which is quicker? :P
  456. # [14:55] <danbri> the physical remote has huge advantage you can use it without looking where your thumb is
  457. # [14:55] <danbri> sure someone will eventually invent screens that change physical texture to show button areas with lumps
  458. # [14:55] <danbri> at which point html will need more APIs again :)
  459. # [14:55] <gsnedders> And patent it.
  460. # [14:57] <danbri> there must be something existing already ,it's too obvious
  461. # [14:57] <danbri> but a screen that could mutate shapes and be multi-touch, ... tough one
  462. # [14:57] <Dashiva> Do you need to implement something to get a software patent for it?
  463. # [14:57] <danbri> i think so (cf. perpetual motion machines etc)
  464. # [14:58] <danbri> ianal & idwtbal
  465. # [14:58] <Dashiva> Real patents, yes, but software has no physical object as result
  466. # [15:01] <danbri> now i need more ogg videos to test with!
  467. # [15:01] <danbri> i guess deep linking with these things is considered more obnoxious even than with images
  468. # [15:01] <Philip`> jgraham: The "perf grounds" are about worst-case performance, which is an important issue since we'd probably want to avoid DOS attacks on the parser
  469. # [15:02] <Philip`> (so the typical speed of parsing is not relevant)
  470. # [15:02] <Philip`> because if you coalesce all adjacent text nodes, in a language with immutable strings, it can give quadratic performance in the size of the input, which is bad
  471. # [15:03] <gsnedders> e.g., <table>a<table>b<table>c<table>d...
  472. # [15:04] <danbri> (is the spinny thing in the middle of firefox html5 video trying to tell me the video is still loading?)
  473. # [15:04] <gsnedders> (I was wondering that too, and guessing that)
  474. # [15:05] * gsnedders guesses jgraham is about to leave his flat for the cinema
  475. # [15:05] * gsnedders guesses he ought to go too, expecially seeming he has all the tickets
  476. # [15:06] <gsnedders> (I wonder, seeming they are showing this in both English and Swedish, whether the English version will have Swedish subtitles or not.)
  477. # [15:08] * gsnedders heads off
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  481. # [15:23] <AryehGregor> jgraham, you can implement SVG in IE using JavaScript and Flash. Demonstrably. So if that's the use-case, problem solved. :)
  482. # [15:24] <AryehGregor> AFAICT, the "decentralized" part of "decentralized extensibility" is mainly a) avoid naming conflicts, b) discoverability of the specification, and (depending on who you ask) c) use XML namespaces.
  483. # [15:24] <AryehGregor> Happily, the proposal satisfies (a) and (c).
  484. # [15:24] <AryehGregor> (b) could be done too, probably, somehow, without actually affecting people from real life who only use things like HTML.
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  487. # [15:56] <AryehGregor> Philip`, it looks like the use-case for RDFa in MediaWiki is allowing license metadata.
  488. # [15:57] <AryehGregor> Since Google and CC are behind RDFa for that.
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  490. # [16:05] <Philip`> AryehGregor: For images, like what I assume http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2009/08/specifying-images-license-using-rdfa.html says except apparently that information is idiotically only available as a video so I've got no idea what it says?
  491. # [16:06] * Joins: mpilgrim (n=mark@81.211.8.2)
  492. # [16:06] <Philip`> I assume it says something like what the first part of http://webbackplane.com/mark-birbeck/blog/2009/08/using-rdfa-to-provide-license-information-to-google-image-search says
  493. # [16:07] <Philip`> (and I guess the latter part of that blog post may be mistaken because it's based on the assumption that Google actually has a proper RDFa parser)
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  496. # [16:15] <AryehGregor> I think Google allows either RDFa or microformats.
  497. # [16:15] <AryehGregor> But CC advocates RDFa.
  498. # [16:15] <AryehGregor> (I do mean microformats, not microdata . . . yay confusing names)
  499. # [16:16] <TabAtkins> Just encode your microformats using microdata. Problem solved. ^_^
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  501. # [16:20] <Philip`> AryehGregor: http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=99170 is pseudo-RDFa plus microformats, but that's not for licensing information
  502. # [16:20] <AryehGregor> Google does check for licensing somehow.
  503. # [16:20] <AryehGregor> For its image search.
  504. # [16:22] * AryehGregor wonders how public-html-request got CCd on the ARIA roles discussion
  505. # [16:23] <TabAtkins> Yeah, dunno, I got an auto-message from it. Pretty weird.
  506. # [16:31] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Remote closed the connection)
  507. # [16:45] <AryehGregor> Some Wikipedia vandals are pretty entertaining. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comparison_of_Microsoft_Windows_versions&diff=prev&oldid=324528354
  508. # [16:50] * Joins: [1]mpilgrim (n=mark@81.211.8.2)
  509. # [16:55] <erlehmann> i'm just watching a lecture from 23C3, bert bos on CSS … will there be something from browser / whatwg people on 26C3 ?
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  515. # [17:14] <Dashiva> I wonder what browser "1.10" is
  516. # [17:17] <Philip`> Maybe it's a new tactic to stop people doing UA sniffing for specific browsers
  517. # [17:17] <Philip`> by not giving the UA a name at all, just a version number
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  519. # [17:25] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Heh.
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  540. # [18:54] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Hva you considered a phone that is a phone, and not a tiny general-purpose computer?
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  543. # [19:01] <AryehGregor> Personally, I've come to dislike electronic devices that aren't general-purpose computers.
  544. # [19:02] <AryehGregor> Like I don't use an alarm clock anymore. It was too tiresome to set it by hand every day.
  545. # [19:02] * Quits: rauchg (n=rauchg@80-254-72-244.dynamic.monzoon.net) (Connection timed out)
  546. # [19:02] <AryehGregor> I just use cron, at, and beep(1).
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  548. # [19:03] <AryehGregor> I'm waiting for a phone I can install Ubuntu on, then maybe I'll get a cell phone.
  549. # [19:04] <Philip`> AryehGregor: You could always get an alarm clock which automatically goes off at the same time every day
  550. # [19:04] * Joins: zalan (n=zalan@catv-89-135-144-122.catv.broadband.hu)
  551. # [19:04] <Philip`> I don't think that's a rare and highly advanced feature
  552. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> The problem is, I don't get up at the same time every day.
  553. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> 35 7 * * sun /home/aryeh/bin/alarm
  554. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> 30 6 * * mon /home/aryeh/bin/alarm
  555. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> 5 7 * * tue,thu,fri /home/aryeh/bin/alarm
  556. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> 40 6 * * wed /home/aryeh/bin/alarm
  557. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> 0 8 * * sat /home/aryeh/bin/alarm
  558. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> In a similar vein, any text field that's not vim aggravates me.
  559. # [19:08] * AryehGregor was very annoyed just now that he couldn't use Ctrl-V to remove the timestamps from /exec crontab -l output in his IRC client
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  621. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Dashiva: That is the sort of phone I am considering.
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  628. # Session Close: Mon Nov 09 00:00:00 2009

The end :)