/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-11-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 17 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Heh. As long as they maintain the current minimum distance between enemies, I think I could stand against an infinite wave of the strongest creeps.
  11. # [00:36] * TabAtkins loves tower defense games.
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  17. # [00:43] <Philip`> TabAtkins: The creeps ought to just stay out of range and lay siege to your tower until you starve or die from dysentery
  18. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Nah, I've got banana plantations for food.
  19. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> There's actually a decent chance I could stand against an infinite wave with *0* separation between creeps - just one giant infinite stack. In fact, it's very likely this is true.
  20. # [00:45] <Philip`> You can't live off bananas forever
  21. # [00:45] <Philip`> You'll devolve into monkeys
  22. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> I am monkeys, so it's all right.
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  26. # [00:57] <jwalden> hum, figure > legend finally went away, wonder when I missed that
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  28. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> jwalden: About two months ago, I think?
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  34. # [01:06] <jwalden> too much not paying attention to the mailing list, I guess
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  36. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> jwalden: Yup. There were several nice threads about it (or more properly, about the problems still inherent in the current approach).
  37. # [01:10] <jwalden> heh
  38. # [01:10] <jwalden> I might have noticed sooner if html5.validator.nu were fully up to date (not actually a complaint, more of a wink wink nudge nudge ;-) )
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  50. # [01:45] <roc> what's the right mailing list to ask CORS questions?
  51. # [01:46] * roc goes with public-webapps
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  58. # [02:03] <othermaciej> roc: that would be the right list
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  60. # [02:03] <roc> ta
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  99. # [04:24] <miketaylr> was there ever an <eventsource> element?
  100. # [04:26] * miketaylr is not sure why it's in remy's html5 shiv script
  101. # [04:27] <inimino> it's not supposed to have content anyway right?
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  103. # [04:29] <miketaylr> yeah
  104. # [04:30] <inimino> and it was event-source
  105. # [04:30] <inimino> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2007-10-26/multipage/section-scripting0.html#the-event-source
  106. # [04:30] <miketaylr> aha, thx inimino
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  162. # [09:06] <hsivonen> Does SPDY work with http: URLs via some triggers in a plain initial GET? or does it require a new URL scheme?
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  168. # [09:12] <othermaciej> I asked the Google folks about it some time ago and they said their intention was to allow some form of negotiation (so you could use http: URLs) but that wasn't implemented yet; not sure what the current state is
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  171. # [09:13] <othermaciej> one thing I don't understand is whether SPDY is symmetrically bidirectional and therefore whether it could address some of the use cases for the WebSocket protocol
  172. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> the whitepaper doesn't seem to mention anything about it either way
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  174. # [09:14] <othermaciej> some people in the HyBi list seemed to think it had some sort of bidirectional nature, which seemed surprising to me, but I don't understand it in enough detail to comment
  175. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: it is bidirectional
  176. # [09:17] <hsivonen> It seems to me that the chances of success would be greater if it used an existing URL scheme and upgraded somehow
  177. # [09:17] <othermaciej> the server can create a stream, but I imagine that would not arise in the course of normal HTTP processing and there's no clear suggestion for how the client would reflect such a thing
  178. # [09:18] <hsivonen> though they are using SSL, so to avoid a lot of overhead, it would need to bootstrap from https:
  179. # [09:18] <othermaciej> yes, I think that is a potentially important deployment issue
  180. # [09:18] <othermaciej> otherwise, if some clients support SPDY and others do not, sites would have to duplicate their content to use it
  181. # [09:19] <hsivonen> also to cut through firewalls, you'd want to bootstrap from an existing port
  182. # [09:19] <othermaciej> worse yet, they would have to duplicate all links in the outside world, which is not possible
  183. # [09:19] <hsivonen> duplicating outside links seems like a fatal flaw if SPDY has the flaw
  184. # [09:19] <hsivonen> I'm surprised it isn't in their FAQ
  185. # [09:19] <hsivonen> it's the first question that pops to my mind
  186. # [09:20] <othermaciej> it was one of the first questions that popped into my mind too
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  188. # [09:28] <hsivonen> interesting. the captioning at http://www.spreadfirefox.com/5years/en-US/ is can move away from the browser-native video controls but the captions don't show up when loading the video in a stand-alone browsing context
  189. # [09:29] * hsivonen wonders if moving away is a mouseover trick with hard-coded Firefox native controls size
  190. # [09:29] <hsivonen> looks like a scripted overlaid HTML element
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  197. # [09:58] <hsivonen> hmm. so the XStandard guy chose html4all as the forum for promoting his 'Why do WYSIWYG editors hate HTML5' article...
  198. # [09:59] <hsivonen> (as opposed to, say, posting about problems to public-html)
  199. # [10:02] <zcorpan_> "Each element, or in some cases the attribute of an element, requires a button or a list box on a WYSIWYG editor toolbar." - don't see any reason for that
  200. # [10:03] <zcorpan_> would probably make a pretty bad UI
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  202. # [10:05] <zcorpan_> on my mom's site's admin UI, i have three "buttons": paragraph, heading, image
  203. # [10:05] <zcorpan_> actually i think i have link too but she hasn't used it
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  206. # [10:07] <zcorpan_> the <footer>s are in the hand-written templates, not in the wysiwyg toolbar
  207. # [10:10] <zcorpan_> <time pubdate> is also in the template, with the date autogenerated when an article is written
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  239. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen, zcorpan_ - I added checking for all obsolete attributes to v.nu
  240. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> checked in, and synced up http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/
  241. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> so can test there
  242. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> I did not test every single attribute
  243. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> because there are so many of them
  244. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> but I smoke-tested it and it seems to be working as expected
  245. # [11:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks. I'll redeploy
  246. # [11:00] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Smoking is bad for you, have you not learnt?
  247. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> heh
  248. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks
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  252. # [11:02] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: <a coords> gives two errors
  253. # [11:03] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: <table bgcolor> doesn't give an obsolete message
  254. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> damn..
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  256. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: thanks -- I'll take a look at it in a bit and see what I muffed up
  257. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> need to get some dinner first
  258. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the diff for the Assertions.java change is here:
  259. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> http://whattf.browse.cvsdude.com/syntax/trunk/non-schema/java/src/org/whattf/checker/schematronequiv/Assertions.java?r1=475&r2=482
  260. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> I'm not sure that's the ideal way to do it, so I'm happy to change it if you see any issues with doing it that way
  261. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> ah geez, looking at the diff I see what I missed
  262. # [11:07] <gsnedders> n00b
  263. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> heh
  264. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> well, I see why there's no error message from bgcolor at least
  265. # [11:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: instead of Arrays.asList, I suggest using Arrays.binarySearch on the raw array
  266. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I figured you might say that :)
  267. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, I will change that later
  268. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I guess that should be significantly faster?
  269. # [11:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: other than that, looks good
  270. # [11:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes
  271. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> OK
  272. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> thanks
  273. # [11:09] <hsivonen> I ran the deployment script, but it seems the new version didn't actually replace the old process
  274. # [11:09] <hsivonen> I'll look into that after lunch
  275. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> hai
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  279. # [11:16] <zcorpan_> <body alink> now validates
  280. # [11:17] <zcorpan_> <a methods> uses the relaxng error message
  281. # [11:18] <zcorpan_> <embed name> too
  282. # [11:19] <zcorpan_> <a urn> too
  283. # [11:19] <zcorpan_> <input usemap> too
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  285. # [11:21] <zcorpan_> <object archive>
  286. # [11:22] <zcorpan_> <object code>
  287. # [11:24] <zcorpan_> <embed align>
  288. # [11:25] <zcorpan_> <input align>
  289. # [11:25] <zcorpan_> <img align src=x> now validates
  290. # [11:26] <zcorpan_> hspace and vspace on img validate too
  291. # [11:28] <zcorpan_> on object too
  292. # [11:29] <zcorpan_> and lots of other attributes that now validate
  293. # [11:32] <zcorpan_> test case http://tinyurl.com/yjvmofs
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  312. # [12:29] * jgraham hopes Mozilla plan to take http://limi.net/articles/resource-packages to a standards body
  313. # [12:31] <gsnedders> Does HTTP pipelining not solve most of the issues?
  314. # [12:32] <jgraham> If by solve you mean "theoretically solve but not actually work in the real world" then yes
  315. # [12:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: We do HTTP pipelining today.
  316. # [12:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: And have been shipping it for years.
  317. # [12:33] * hsivonen wonders how resource packages and SPDY compare for real-world scenarios
  318. # [12:33] <jgraham> Yeah but I wonder how complex our heuristics have to be for detecting broken proxies / servers / etc.
  319. # [12:33] <hsivonen> in performance, in deployment ease, in maintenance ease and in implementability
  320. # [12:33] <jgraham> Or if we just break in those cases
  321. # [12:33] <Philip`> Why do they want a separate manifest file, rather than making browsers a bit cleverer so they download the file table at the end of the zip?
  322. # [12:33] <hsivonen> and backwards compat
  323. # [12:33] <gsnedders> We have heuristics. I could never find out/work out what they are when I was working on HTTP parsing.
  324. # [12:34] <jgraham> Philip`: Possibly an encoding issue? Or streamability?
  325. # [12:34] <jgraham> gsnedders: Right, and having [magic goes here] as part of a solution is bad
  326. # [12:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: The problem is more old severs that are dying out, AFAIK
  327. # [12:36] <gsnedders> ZIP means relying upon content-type magic, which seems bad
  328. # [12:36] <gsnedders> Also ZIP seems bad seeming most HTTP clients already have GZIP impls
  329. # [12:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: gzip only works on single files
  330. # [12:37] * annevk wonders how to spec CaretPosition
  331. # [12:38] <Philip`> jgraham: Hmm, encoding sounds fun, given that zip doesn't require UTF-8 or anything
  332. # [12:38] <Philip`> and (if I remember correctly) different OSes and zip programs encode names in different ways
  333. # [12:38] <Philip`> (I think this was an issue with widgets, or something?)
  334. # [12:38] <jgraham> Philip`: You do remember correctly
  335. # [12:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yes
  336. # [12:38] <Philip`> gsnedders: Zip and gzip use the same compression algoritm
  337. # [12:39] <Philip`> gsnedders: Zip just adds a load of headers
  338. # [12:39] <jgraham> (yes it is an issue with widgets which suggests that there is at least prior art for solving it)\
  339. # [12:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: Ah true, I always forget that Zip uses deflate
  340. # [12:42] * Philip` never forgets, since after months of fruitless investigation he happened to realise that Age of Empire's main data file looked very much like the content of a zip file, and eventually realised they were using zlib to deflate it
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  342. # [12:45] <Philip`> s/Empire's/Empires'/
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  349. # [13:10] <gsnedders> http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/why-do-wysiwyg-editors-hate-html5/
  350. # [13:17] <hsivonen> also from the same site: http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/is-html5-good-for-app-developers/
  351. # [13:17] <hsivonen> http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/html-spec-failure/
  352. # [13:18] <Philip`> Some of the comments don't sound very sympathetic
  353. # [13:18] <hsivonen> also from the same author: http://xhtml.com/en/future/x-html-5-versus-xhtml-2/
  354. # [13:19] <gsnedders> Indeed, I did remember that last article
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  356. # [13:25] * annevk is not too impressed with the more features = more buttons
  357. # [13:25] <hsivonen> looks like the issue of "our language is more important than yours, your language needs to change" is a central part of the DE/XML5 discussion
  358. # [13:26] <hsivonen> judging from Jirka's response
  359. # [13:26] <hsivonen> but Sam told me and Liam not to pursue discussing that aspect
  360. # [13:26] <Lachy> the more features = more buttons approach is complete crap, considering about half the buttons on that toolbar he showed should be dropped anyway
  361. # [13:26] <annevk> I'm not sure why Jirka thinks I want XML namespaces
  362. # [13:27] <gsnedders> Because XML namespaces are the hot hot sex.
  363. # [13:27] <Lachy> and it's ironic how he's whinging about the alt attribute mess, considering that much of the debate about why alt should be optional centered around making it easier for authoring tools to cope with bad or missing user input
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  365. # [13:28] <Lachy> although, admittedly, the spec did get pushed into an overly complex state where conformance is dependant on a range of factors
  366. # [13:29] <hsivonen> I thought I commented on the authoring tool complexity aspect
  367. # [13:29] <hsivonen> but I didn't track if Hixie changed the spec based on my feedback
  368. # [13:32] <hsivonen> maybe I should have filed a bug for improved trackability
  369. # [13:32] <hsivonen> but I try to avoid poking the alt discussion too much. it might flare up again
  370. # [13:43] <jgraham> The fundamental problem with authouring tools is that no one has made a usable (for the average Word user) UI that rewards the correct use of elements rather than just rewarding the right presentation
  371. # [13:43] <jgraham> I don't think this situation is any worse for HTML5
  372. # [13:44] <annevk> so far it hasn't really been shown to be possible either
  373. # [13:45] <jgraham> Indeed. That's what I mean
  374. # [13:45] <jgraham> It is beyond the state of the art in UI design. It may in fact be impossible (though I would not like to bet either way)
  375. # [13:45] <Philip`> It sounds like Vlad Alexander's goal is not to make a usable document-editing UI for average users that happens to output HTML, but to make a UI specifically for editing arbitrary HTML documents
  376. # [13:46] <Philip`> (hence needing UI features for all HTML features, etc)
  377. # [13:47] <zcorpan> i thought xstandard was supposed to be plugged into a cms, which in my world doesn't need to and shouldn't have ui for all features
  378. # [13:48] <jgraham> Philip`: A text editor is a UI for editing arbitary HTML documents
  379. # [13:48] <jgraham> It doesn't need to have any specific buttons
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  381. # [13:50] <jgraham> (the article totally ignores the need for backward compatibility. Given a green field it is surely possible to design something more elegant. But we don't have a green field)
  382. # [13:51] <Philip`> We don't need backward comatibility for <time>, and could design that more elegantly
  383. # [13:52] <annevk> hmm, nuking views
  384. # [13:52] <annevk> yumyum
  385. # [13:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: the "fundamental problem" is the fundamental problem of "semantic" markup
  386. # [13:52] <Philip`> s//p/
  387. # [13:52] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes we do, to the extent that it must not be disruptive in legacy browsers
  388. # [13:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: Indeed
  389. # [13:53] <annevk> also, caretRangeFromPoint is now caretPositionFromPoint in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/
  390. # [13:53] <Philip`> jgraham: Okay, but that's fairly easy to satisfy since new elements are ignored in legacy browsers, and complex conformance requirements are irrelevant to compatibility
  391. # [13:54] <jgraham> Philip`: So if you have a better design that fufils the constraint, I suggest proposing it
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  393. # [13:54] <jgraham> (the suggestions in the article mainly seem to be missing or ignore back-compat)
  394. # [13:55] <annevk> I think I'll nuke AbstractView and DocumentView (though not their members) and define things as extensions to Document and Window instead
  395. # [13:56] <Philip`> I don't have a proposal myself; I just think the issues identified with <time> in the article are not required by backward compatibility, and so the problem is that he's not proposing an alternative (not that he's ignoring backward compatibility there)
  396. # [13:58] <Philip`> (although where he does propose an alternative (for headings) he's ignoring backward compatibility, since <heading> won't be a heading in old UAs)
  397. # [13:59] * Philip` thinks he is probably agreeing with jgraham
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  401. # [14:06] * annevk wonders why some stuff is dom-location and others dom-window-toolbar
  402. # [14:06] * annevk thought there was naming scheme
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  429. # [15:27] <annevk> XHR content-type fixup is a mess :/
  430. # [15:28] <hsivonen> s/XHR//
  431. # [15:29] <Philip`> s/content-type fixup/everything/
  432. # [15:37] <annevk> there's less to spec on the greater mess for me specifically
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  451. # [16:35] <annevk2> hmm, the problem with treating text/plain resources as text/html resources is that fragment identifiers for text/plain resources will not function
  452. # [16:35] <annevk2> at least in theory
  453. # [16:35] <annevk2> the same goes (in theory again) for video resources etc. loaded directly
  454. # [16:35] <annevk2> or images
  455. # [16:35] <annevk2> hmm
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  458. # [16:43] <Philip`> "Already then we knew that for dissenting opinions usually a good solution is to include both ways things can work and a switch."
  459. # [16:43] <Philip`> (about the design of XML)
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  486. # [17:53] <Lachy> the parse="lax" idea doesn't seem particularly useful. It should be left entirely up to the needs of the application to determine whether to use draconian error handling, or more graceful recovery
  487. # [17:55] <Lachy> also, adding <?xml parse="lax"?> would cause a well-formedness error in XML 1.0 parsers
  488. # [17:57] <jgraham__> Yeah that part of the proposal doesn't really fly
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  493. # [18:00] <annevk2> letting content authors decide seems like a bad idea
  494. # [18:01] <annevk2> except maybe in the case where you can get some perf benefits as is the case with "use strict" in ES5, but even that seems dubious
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  543. # [19:46] <hsivonen> yeah, letting authors decide draconian vs. not makes no sense, as demonstrated by pages that opt into XML only in Firefox but have later added ill-formed stuff and apparently have only been tested in other browsers for the additions
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  565. # [20:43] <roc> hang on
  566. # [20:44] <roc> W3C XML fans are explicitly advocating that browsers implement lax XML parsing, and furthermore that 1990s-HTML "everyone does their own thing" error recovery is just fine?
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  569. # [20:45] <othermaciej> kinda weird, isn't it?
  570. # [20:45] <othermaciej> but I think if you have non-well-formed XML you are supposed to show an error somewhere
  571. # [20:45] <roc> I'm reeling
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  574. # [21:01] <Philip`> othermaciej: Do you mean where it says "fatal error: An error which a conforming XML processor MUST detect and report to the application"?
  575. # [21:01] <Philip`> which is different from saying you need to make the user aware of the error
  576. # [21:01] <othermaciej> Philip`: I'm talking about interpretations of the XML spec, not the XML spec itself
  577. # [21:01] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  578. # [21:02] <othermaciej> I didn't really understand the interpretations though
  579. # [21:02] <Philip`> Following specs is clearly overrated
  580. # [21:02] <Philip`> XML would be much better if those pesky browsers went and did their own thing instead of dragging XML down with them
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  582. # [21:05] <hsivonen> roc: as I understand it, the logic is that after the first WF error, it's not XML, so XML rules don't apply and anything goes
  583. # [21:05] <hsivonen> rather revisionist
  584. # [21:06] <Philip`> I don't think it's about "after" - if the document is not well-formed XML then it's not XML, regardless of whether a parser has parsed it and found the WF error
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  586. # [21:07] <Philip`> If you could magically detect well-formedness errors without parsing the document, you wouldn't have to start parsing it with an XML-compliant parser
  587. # [21:07] <Philip`> and could process it in whatever non-XML way you fancy
  588. # [21:08] <Philip`> "They are free to do *almost* whatever they want -- they can't claim it was well-formed XML." - hmm, so what if I write <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><script>alert('This document is well-formed XML');</script><bogus markup></html>?
  589. # [21:08] <othermaciej> that would be the document, not the browser, claiming that
  590. # [21:09] <roc> I understand the position, but it's nonsense
  591. # [21:10] <roc> I don't understand the change in psychology that seems to have occurred here
  592. # [21:10] <othermaciej> it seems to go against what appeared to be the stated intent of the XML WG at the time
  593. # [21:11] <hsivonen> othermaciej: like I said, revisionist
  594. # [21:11] <roc> I have always assumed that implementing lax XML parsing in browsers would bring the wrath of W3C gods down upon our heads
  595. # [21:12] <Philip`> I imagine the gods are divided
  596. # [21:12] <hsivonen> wrath if you do, wrath if you don't
  597. # [21:13] <Philip`> You should write a patch and put it in an alpha release just to see what side people end up on
  598. # [21:13] <roc> I wonder if these lax parsing advocates understand that if browsers start accepting lax XML then there will be a race to the bottom where many or most XML processors will be forced to follow suit
  599. # [21:14] <roc> whether or not browsers claim "this is well-formed XML", authors and users who see it rendered on their screens will assume it is
  600. # [21:14] * hsivonen prefers race to XML5 rather than "bottom" :-)
  601. # [21:16] <Philip`> That sounds like it would only matter if people used XML parsers to parse web pages
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  604. # [21:16] <Philip`> They could instead use non-XML parsers, like they have to do today to parse web pages
  605. # [21:16] <Philip`> so it doesn't seem worse than now
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  607. # [21:19] <roc> it would affect anything that browsers can render
  608. # [21:19] <roc> SVG for example
  609. # [21:20] <roc> yes, of course we should race to XML5
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  611. # [21:27] <othermaciej> if XML already gives you the freedom to do lax parsing then it seems like there should be no problem with a spec that defines a way to do it
  612. # [21:27] <Philip`> "Having unified error recovery will be excuse for content producers and can lead to producing more and more non-well-formed content." - certainly, if you have non-unified error recovery then producers will be very careful to produce valid content to guarantee interoperability, just like in HTML
  613. # [21:28] <Philip`> If HTML had always had unified error recovery rules then maybe 98% of content would be invalid, rather than merely 95%
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  615. # [21:42] <jgraham> It is slightly bemusing that the official line seems to be that interoperability isn't a problem as long as you don't dare call anything malformed XML
  616. # [21:45] <roc> off-label XML
  617. # [21:46] <Philip`> Interoperability between things that don't claim to be XML processors is not a problem for XML to solve
  618. # [21:48] <Philip`> (or for things that contain an XML processor but don't claim to be using it for that document)
  619. # [21:49] <Philip`> If it's not well-formed XML, it's as irrelevant as HTML or PNG as far as the XML spec is concerned
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  626. # [22:27] <Lachy> of course, that position is utter nonsense. It's just a cop out to avoid conceding the fact that well-defined error recovery for XML is needed.
  627. # [22:30] <Philip`> AryehGregor: "there would be an algorithm to make it into XML" - that's not compatible with what XML5 does
  628. # [22:30] <Philip`> e.g. for <!-- -- --> it produces a DOM that could never be produced by parsing XML
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  652. # [23:54] * annevk2 is meanwhile happy jgraham took over the whether-or-not-to-specify-compat-crap thread
  653. # [23:55] * Quits: smaug_ (n=chatzill@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.7a1pre/20091112214213]")
  654. # [23:56] * Joins: murr4y (n=murray@245.84-49-171.nextgentel.com)
  655. # [23:58] <jgraham> I guess I should have mentioed that Mozilla's perspecive might be somewhat influenced by the fact that they have a relatively high marketshare and a relatively mature engine
  656. # [23:59] <jgraham> So theissues I mentioned wouldn't be so much of a problem unless they ditched tracemonkey and started over
  657. # [23:59] <jgraham> (which they might want to do one day of course)
  658. # [23:59] <jgraham> anyway, time for sleeping now I think
  659. # Session Close: Wed Nov 18 00:00:00 2009

The end :)