/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-11-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 18 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:04] <annevk2> I totally agree with Brendan you can reverse engineer too much
  4. # [00:04] <annevk2> and I think Opera has done that in some cases
  5. # [00:05] <annevk2> well, we reverse engineered the wrong evil
  6. # [00:05] <annevk2> in the beginning; we're doing a lot better the last couple of years
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  8. # [00:07] <othermaciej> it does seem like Mozilla is feeling their market power and therefore working with somewhat different motivations
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  10. # [00:07] <othermaciej> it also seems to me like Brendan was a bit hasty to tar everything on the wiki page with the same brush
  11. # [00:11] <annevk2> You'd think that Mozilla of all organizations out there would like to make it as easy as possible to let other players enter the market, yet I see surprisingly little effort in that direction from them...
  12. # [00:11] <roc> well
  13. # [00:12] <roc> the whole thing about video codecs is about making it possible for anyone to implement
  14. # [00:12] <roc> if we didn't care, we'd just buy an H.264 license and move on
  15. # [00:16] <annevk2> True, though I suspect that's also because of the "free" angle attached to it
  16. # [00:17] <roc> I also think that out of all the major browsers, we have been the most resistant to adding random hacks for IE compat, which I like to think is because we prefer to push Web authors in the right direction
  17. # [00:18] <annevk2> I meant more in the area of properly specifying legacy features everyone has to implement (e.g. DOMParser), converging on details of legacy features (e.g. XMLHttpRequest)...
  18. # [00:18] <roc> ok
  19. # [00:18] <annevk2> We're reverting our IE hacks and replace them with Gecko hacks :)
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  21. # [00:18] <roc> I will also point out we took significant pain to get rid of getBoxObjectFor
  22. # [00:19] <annevk2> I noticed that, much appreciated!
  23. # [00:19] <roc> I don't seem to be subscribed to wherever your discussion is, so I can't really comment on what Brendan said
  24. # [00:20] <annevk2> It's on public-script-coord
  25. # [00:20] <annevk2> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2009OctDec/
  26. # [00:20] <annevk2> bedtime for me though, ttyl
  27. # [00:20] <roc> ta
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  55. # [02:11] <othermaciej> annevk: for WebKit we've always leaned more towards Gecko hacks than Trident hacks
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  125. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: I fixed the problems with obsolete-attribute checking you found yesterday
  126. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> when you have time, please check again and let me know if find anything else I've missed
  127. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> on http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/
  128. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://whattf.browse.cvsdude.com/syntax/trunk/non-schema/java/src/org/whattf/checker/schematronequiv/Assertions.java?r1=483&r2=486
  129. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> lemme know if there are any other refinements I should make to that
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  131. # [08:28] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: <embed name> still gives the relaxng error
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  133. # [08:29] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: and <a urn>
  134. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: thanks
  135. # [08:30] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: and <input usemap>
  136. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> I didn't have those in my list at all
  137. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: are you working from a list, or from memory?
  138. # [08:30] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20091117#l-293
  139. # [08:31] * MikeSmith looks now
  140. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> OK
  141. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> I was working from annevk HTML4-HTML5 differences doc
  142. # [08:33] <zcorpan_> html5 lists some attributes as obsolete that were already obsolete or not even mentioned in html4
  143. # [08:33] <MikeSmith> ok
  144. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> I will go through your test case and add everything that's missing
  145. # [08:35] * zcorpan_ reserves the right to have made mistakes in his testcase and suggests MikeSmith looks at the spec from which the test was created
  146. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> hai
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  180. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: embed was never officially part of any published version of HTML before HTML5, right?
  181. # [09:36] <Hixie> right
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  183. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> just wondering about whether v.nu actually should report name and align attributes on it as obsolete
  184. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> but I guess it should
  185. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> given that despite it not being part of any published standard, we still want to give useful warnings about it
  186. # [09:44] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: btw, the spec has suggestions for what to use instead, would be cool if the validator used them in the messages
  187. # [09:44] <zcorpan_> sorry if i'm stating the obvious :)
  188. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah, I see that now. but would rather wait til later to add that. it would take significantly more time to add it right now
  189. # [09:46] <zcorpan_> ok
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  199. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: OK, please try again when you have time
  200. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> on http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/
  201. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> I don't actually know how to run your test case myself
  202. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> because I don't know how to make v.nu use data: URIs
  203. # [10:19] * annevk2 curses people with loud car/door/something alarms
  204. # [10:20] <annevk2> and especially those that let them go off so many times people can no longer sleep
  205. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: I get an error on the console, "unsupported protocol: 'data'"
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  207. # [10:24] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: i just copied the text into the textarea
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  211. # [10:27] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: i still get the relaxng error for <input usemap>
  212. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> shit
  213. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> lemme check
  214. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  215. # [10:30] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: maybe the messages should say "The foo attribute on element bar is obsolete" instead of just "The foo attribute is obsolete" since e.g. <link target> is obsolete but <a target> isn't
  216. # [10:30] * gsnedders finds a page which behaves differently with %26 and & in the URI
  217. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> there's not a single attribute pattern for the input element in the scheme
  218. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> *schema
  219. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah, I guess we should have it do that
  220. # [10:31] <zcorpan_> the schema adds attributes depending on what type is, doesn't it?
  221. # [10:31] <zcorpan_> for input
  222. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> yeah
  223. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> so that means I have to add it to 20 different patterns
  224. # [10:32] <zcorpan_> isn't there input.attrs.common or so?
  225. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> maybe
  226. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> I can't remember.. I'll look
  227. # [10:33] <zcorpan_> i guess usemap was only valid for type=image anyway
  228. # [10:33] <zcorpan_> so you could just add it to type=image and leave the rest
  229. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> yeah, true
  230. # [10:35] <zcorpan_> s/valid/used/
  231. # [10:35] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  232. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> anyway, fwiw, there is no input.attrs.common pattern (or equivalent) -- I guess because there are no attributes common to all input elements that aren't also common too all form attributes (or that aren't global on all elements)
  233. # [10:36] <othermaciej> isn't "type" common to all form elements?
  234. # [10:36] <othermaciej> er, to all inputs I mean, but not other form elements?
  235. # [10:37] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: yes, but since the schema has different patterns depending on type, that's not particularly helpful in this case
  236. # [10:37] <annevk2> depends, all form elements do have a type IDL attribute
  237. # [10:37] * othermaciej has no idea what the context is, just sayin'
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  239. # [10:40] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: also <object code>
  240. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: that one I omitted intentionally.. because afaict no published spec ever allowed code on object anyway
  241. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> do people actually use code on object?
  242. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> I thought it was just for applet
  243. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> I wasn't sure if it was included in the list intentionally or not
  244. # [10:41] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: dunno, maybe the spec is wrong in listing <object code> as obsolete
  245. # [10:42] <zcorpan_> same for <param type>?
  246. # [10:43] * MikeSmith checks on <param type>
  247. # [10:44] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: also align on input
  248. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  249. # [10:44] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: gives 2 messages
  250. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> that I will need to add to a lot more patterns
  251. # [10:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: I wouldn't expect the DOM to depend on network packet boundaries
  252. # [10:46] <zcorpan_> hmm, html4 doesn't have <input align>
  253. # [10:47] <zcorpan_> oh but html 3.2 does
  254. # [10:49] * jgraham wonders if we have reached any conclusion about coalescing text nodes in general
  255. # [10:49] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: maybe the message for <img border=1> and <script language=vbscript> should advice to use the preferred alternative instead of advicing to alter the value
  256. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: the warnings for those cases basically come directly from what's mandated in the spec
  257. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> I think
  258. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> it looks like html4 loose allowed <param type>
  259. # [10:51] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: yes, but if you have <script language=vbscript>, you don't want to change that to <script language=javascript>
  260. # [10:52] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: because presumably the script was vbscript and language is still obsolete so changing the value still won't silence the validator
  261. # [10:52] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: it should advice to use <script type=text/vbscript>
  262. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: right, I see what you're saying now
  263. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> please file a bug on that one if you have time
  264. # [10:52] * Quits: yoshu (n=josh@174-18-194-35.tcso.qwest.net)
  265. # [10:57] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: no message for <ul><li type> and <ol type> and <ul type>
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  267. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> hmm, that one's weird
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  270. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: no clue on that one yet.. code seems right
  271. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> but I'll check in the other changes shortly
  272. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> ah, found it
  273. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> (dumb mistake)
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  282. # [11:25] <annevk2> http://www.w3.org/mid/JACATK.TNKL0CLX3OQC@abbra.com is somewhat interesting
  283. # [11:25] <annevk2> browser vendors abused the SVG WG
  284. # [11:25] <annevk2> heard it here first
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  287. # [11:34] <othermaciej> cause we're mean
  288. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> the SVG WG was guilty of self-abuse
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  293. # [11:53] <othermaciej> Opera supports the uDOM?
  294. # [11:54] <annevk2> unfortunately yes
  295. # [11:54] <annevk2> hopefully nobody else adds it
  296. # [11:55] <othermaciej> seems like it is on the active disinterest list for WebKit and Gecko at least
  297. # [11:57] <annevk2> yeah
  298. # [11:57] <othermaciej> SVG Tiny 1.2 is a REC? now that's an implementation report I gotta read
  299. # [11:58] <annevk2> not sure how that worked either; hopefully now more browsers are involved the next SVG will be better
  300. # [11:58] <zcorpan_> "The only way to have features put into SVG or any other W3C
  301. # [11:58] <zcorpan_> spec is to participate in the group, attend teleconferences,
  302. # [11:58] <zcorpan_> face to face meetings and back your cause."
  303. # [11:59] <othermaciej> hmm the implementation report doesn't seem to include even a single implementation passing all the tests
  304. # [12:00] <othermaciej> ah, I see
  305. # [12:00] <othermaciej> their "two implementations" requirement is per test
  306. # [12:01] <zcorpan_> so i can write an implementation that passes one test, and it would count?
  307. # [12:03] <annevk2> you'd need another
  308. # [12:03] <jgraham> Allowing partial implementations as evidence that the spec as a whole is implementable seems like it has obvious flaws
  309. # [12:04] <annevk2> i guess in the trade-off perfection vs moving forward they picked moving forward
  310. # [12:04] <othermaciej> "The CR exit criteria were a minimum of two implementations passing each test in the test suite, of which at least one must be running on a mobile platform."
  311. # [12:04] * zcorpan_ writes an impl that does nothing but showing "PASS", which magically passes lots of tests
  312. # [12:05] <othermaciej> that first clause is ambiguous
  313. # [12:08] <othermaciej> I don't see why they tested Firefox or Safari (they only "passed" two tests total) but it looks like they needed all of the other 8 implementations tested to meet their CR exit criteria
  314. # [12:11] <othermaciej> interesting to see Microsoft following SVG
  315. # [12:13] * Philip` wonders if anyone has worked out the historical correlation between Microsoft commenting on details of specs and them implementing it in the next version of IE
  316. # [12:14] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  317. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: I checked in several changes and I think fixed the misses you've reported so far
  318. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> except for object/@code, which I'm still not sure whether that's in the list intentionally or inadvertently
  319. # [12:18] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: file a spec bug on object code
  320. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> OK
  321. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> I'm looking for MAMA on that one too
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  323. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> no @code in http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-plug-ins/#object
  324. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> but then, @codetype didn't make that list either
  325. # [12:24] <Philip`> I see several <object codetype>s in dotbot data
  326. # [12:25] <Philip`> and zero <object code>s
  327. # [12:25] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  328. # [12:25] <Philip`> (By "several" I mean about a dozen sites)
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  334. # [12:33] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cbody%3E%0A%3Cobject%20id%3Do%3E%3C%2Fobject%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.getElementById%28%27o%27%29.code%3D1%3C%2Fscript%3E - hmm, browsers support it
  335. # [12:34] <Philip`> http://google.com/codesearch?q=%3Cobject%5B%5E%3E%5D%2A%5Cscode%3D - some people use it
  336. # [12:43] <gsnedders> Anyone know what sort of feedback MS have been sending on SVG? I heard a bit from ed over lunch, but anyone know what sort of stuff specifically? General technical issues? Stuff you'd find during implementing?
  337. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> Philip`: thanks. I moved the bug to resolved=invalid
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  344. # [13:08] <hsivonen> the SVG post is interesting
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  348. # [13:13] <annevk2> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=526491#c5 hmm, Brendan seems somewhat pissed off with our specs :/
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  362. # [13:55] <jgraham> annevk2: No, really?
  363. # [13:56] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  364. # [13:57] * zcorpan_ notes that his suggestion of prefixing x3d elements with "x" would result in an element called <xbox>
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  367. # [14:02] <othermaciej> the latest Editor's Draft of Web IDL does seem to specify that there should be a "constructor" property, but it's not very specific about location
  368. # [14:04] <othermaciej> (last WD does not mention it)
  369. # [14:04] <othermaciej> in any case I'd doubt Blake even looked there
  370. # [14:05] <othermaciej> I am not sure why Brendan seems to have a bee in his bonnet lately
  371. # [14:06] <annevk2> btw, jgraham told me in some other channel we did actually recently reverse engineer Date parsing to improve compatibility
  372. # [14:06] <annevk2> gotta love that
  373. # [14:06] <Dashiva> I'm more surprised you didn't do it earlier
  374. # [14:06] <Dashiva> Since that's one of the worst parts of the es3 spec
  375. # [14:07] <othermaciej> I'm sure JavaScriptCore is full of reverse engineering hackery on that front
  376. # [14:07] <gsnedders> We didn't reverse-engineer it in a massive amount of detail though
  377. # [14:07] <othermaciej> Brendan has long cited it as an example of something that should not be spec'd at all ever (back to the ES3.1 vs ES4 days)
  378. # [14:07] <annevk2> Dashiva, I'm sure we did it several times
  379. # [14:07] <Dashiva> btw: Do you really need to reverse engineer, considering both FF and Safari are open source? :)
  380. # [14:07] <othermaciej> I never quite grasped his explanation of why though
  381. # [14:08] * Quits: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@dslb-084-060-003-115.pools.arcor-ip.net) ("?Q")
  382. # [14:08] <annevk2> dhyatt claimed for a while that defining the HTML parser would not be possible
  383. # [14:08] <Dashiva> othermaciej: Maybe he's in the "Only specify good and decent behavior" camp?
  384. # [14:08] <annevk2> (and it is indeed somewhat insane)
  385. # [14:09] <othermaciej> Dashiva: the thing is, he's been on the "face the lame reality" side in other cases
  386. # [14:10] <othermaciej> hyatt was very nearly right!
  387. # [14:11] <Dashiva> But impossible just means it takes longer :P
  388. # [14:11] <othermaciej> it seems like the most ES-like thing to do would be for the constructor property to be on the prototype
  389. # [14:13] <othermaciej> that's what happens for built-in objects and for objects created by JS-implemented constructors
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  397. # [14:49] <Dashiva> >Flight to #TPAC09: $3300, Hotel: $1800
  398. # [14:49] <Dashiva> That's... a lot more than I would expect
  399. # [14:50] <annevk2> those are not the real numbers I think
  400. # [14:50] <annevk2> I hope so anyway!
  401. # [14:53] <Lachy> annevk2, if you add up the costs of all the hotels we stayed in for the whole time in the US, it comes fairly close to $1800 for the 3 of us
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  403. # [14:54] <Lachy> same for our combined flight costs
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  405. # [14:57] <annevk2> oh, combined
  406. # [14:58] <annevk2> it should say flights then
  407. # [14:58] <annevk2> etc.
  408. # [15:02] <annevk2> lol
  409. # [15:02] <annevk2> http://vimeo.com/6985053
  410. # [15:02] <annevk2> check two minutes in
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  416. # [15:20] <gsnedders> annevk2: I can't watch that. It needs Flash. Can you give me a version which I can view?
  417. # [15:21] <annevk2> no
  418. # [15:22] <gsnedders> Then you fail.
  419. # [15:23] <Philip`> gsnedders: On the contrary, it seems to be you who is experiencing the failure
  420. # [15:26] <murr4y> "you shall go to the pub, cinderella"
  421. # [15:26] <murr4y> pure gold :D
  422. # [15:34] <jgraham> Dashiva: Where are those numbers from?
  423. # [15:34] <annevk2> twitter
  424. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> that mack from brucel presentation should become the official logo for HTML5
  425. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> "HTML5: HTML, but with more pimp cane"
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  427. # [15:43] * murr4y agrees
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  434. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: error messages for obsolete attributes now also include the element names
  435. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> per your suggestion
  436. # [16:05] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  437. # [16:08] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: cool
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  441. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: so I want to also implement your suggestion about the error messages including suggestions about what to use instead, but I need to figure out how best to do it
  442. # [16:16] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: for <script language> or in general?
  443. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> in general
  444. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> right now the obsolete-attributes stuff is in a hash table where the attribute name is the key and the array of elements on which it's obsolete is the value
  445. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> so what I'd need to do is also associate a string with the suggestion about what to use instead
  446. # [16:18] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: <p align> says "The align attribute on the p element is obsolete. Use CSS instead."
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  448. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah.. is that wrong?
  449. # [16:18] <zcorpan_> no
  450. # [16:19] <zcorpan_> how is the "Use CSS instead." implemented?
  451. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> it's just boilerplate for the case of all attributes that are presentational
  452. # [16:20] <zcorpan_> can you use a similar approach for other groups of attributes?
  453. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> the code has broad conditions (two separate hash tables): one for the set of "presentational" attributes, and one for the others
  454. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> the others don't really fall into any recognizable patterns/groups
  455. # [16:22] <zcorpan_> ok
  456. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> so would need to have some message string associated for each attribute
  457. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> even then, that'd also assume that the "what to use instead" suggestion is one-to-one the same for a particular attribute, regardless of what the element is.. which I'm not sure is actually the case
  458. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> anyway, I'll look at it some more
  459. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> it would be worthwhile to try to capture/report all the info/suggestions that's available in the spec
  460. # [16:25] <zcorpan_> the spec doesn't seem to have different suggestions for attributes with the same name
  461. # [16:25] <MikeSmith> Ok, that's good at least
  462. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> that makes it a lot easier
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  466. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> I guess I could just use two separate hash tables for each attribute: one table that associates each attribute with a list of one or more elements on which it's obsolete, and another table that associates each attribute with a "what to use instead" message
  467. # [16:32] * MikeSmith looks around for hsivonen
  468. # [16:32] * hsivonen looks at the scrollback
  469. # [16:33] <hsivonen> is what to use instead unique by attribute name or do you need both the attribute and the element name?
  470. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: just by attribute name
  471. # [16:33] <hsivonen> ok. I guess hashtables like that will work
  472. # [16:35] * hsivonen leaves the computer having blogged about http://hsivonen.iki.fi/speculative-html5-parsing/
  473. # [16:35] <Philip`> <ul type>
  474. # [16:36] <Philip`> <param type>
  475. # [16:36] <Philip`> Spec gives different suggestions for those
  476. # [16:36] <zcorpan_> ul type is in the presentational bucket
  477. # [16:37] <Philip`> Ah
  478. # [16:37] <zcorpan_> but it does mean that MikeSmith can't combine the currently presentational hashtable and the-rest hashtable into one
  479. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> right
  480. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> I did it that way because the spec makes that same high-level distinction
  481. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> as does annevk2 differences doc
  482. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> and because it seems like a useful broad distinction
  483. # [16:38] * Philip` imagines it would be nice if the validator gave more specific advice for common situations, like if people do ugly <object> plugin stuff then it should suggest specific equivalent non-obsolete markup to achieve the same effect
  484. # [16:38] * Philip` wonders if that kind of thing could be possible
  485. # [16:39] <Philip`> (Ideally it would give specific CSS suggestions for presentational attributes, too)
  486. # [16:40] <Philip`> (because otherwise it's really hard trying to remember what the equivalent of <table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 border=1> is)
  487. # [16:40] <zcorpan_> "Use CSS instead" could be a link to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Presentational_elements_and_attributes
  488. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> that's doable, I think
  489. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> (the link, I mean)
  490. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> specific suggestions for each one is less doable
  491. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> ..because there are shitload of these
  492. # [16:43] <Philip`> Maybe not for all of them, just for the ones that turn out to be common and that cause people to post on forums saying "The validator says my code's wrong but I don't understand its scary messages, what should I do instead?"
  493. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> "suck it in"
  494. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> "get a clue"
  495. # [16:44] <Philip`> I'm assuming you want to actually help users, but I could be mistaken :-)
  496. # [16:44] <zcorpan_> "follow the link in the message"
  497. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> "give up and go back to developing is visual basic"
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  505. # [16:58] <pixeL`MBP> is 2x <aside></aside>
  506. # [16:58] <pixeL`MBP> allowed?
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  511. # [17:06] <zcorpan_> pixeL`MBP: yes
  512. # [17:06] <pixeL`MBP> ok
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  515. # [18:13] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  516. # [18:13] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  517. # [18:13] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  532. # [19:01] * gavin___ is now known as gavin
  533. # [19:03] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: does it work in ie?
  534. # [19:03] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/11/18/an-early-look-at-ie9-for-developers.aspx
  535. # [19:03] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: Yes, because IE displays fall-back content as it doesn't support SVG :P
  536. # [19:05] <Philip`> Looks like IE9 JS performance is no longer an order of magnitude off everybody else's
  537. # [19:06] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: hmm. i'm pretty sure there are sites that depend on the ie behavior of <object> scoping
  538. # [19:06] <gsnedders> I think we're screwed either way
  539. # [19:07] <zcorpan_> yes
  540. # [19:07] <zcorpan_> OTW
  541. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> otw?
  542. # [19:10] <zcorpan_> http://my.opera.com/downloadthefuture/blog/show.dml/2241145
  543. # [19:11] <zcorpan_> uh, seems like http://my.opera.com/community/openweb/info/ is the appropriate reference
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  545. # [19:13] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: bratell already filed
  546. # [19:18] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Out of curiosity, when does work on Acid4 begin? (Feel free to use the abstract HTML5 timeline as a reference point.)
  547. # [19:20] <zcorpan_> "Acid3 tests about 100 aspects of different technologies (many still in the “working draft” stage of standardization)"
  548. # [19:21] <zcorpan_> i thought it only tested things from specs that were in CR a few years ago
  549. # [19:21] <GPHemsley> zcorpan_: A commenter makes a note of that
  550. # [19:23] <gsnedders> GPHemsley: Once IE passes Acid4
  551. # [19:23] <gsnedders> *Acid3
  552. # [19:23] <GPHemsley> gsnedders: Somehow, I doubt that.
  553. # [19:23] <gsnedders> GPHemsley: What, the Acid4? :P
  554. # [19:24] <GPHemsley> -_-
  555. # [19:25] <GPHemsley> (that was a glare, BTW)
  556. # [19:27] <gsnedders> Yeah, we'll write Acid4 once IE passes it!
  557. # [19:27] <gsnedders> Why not?
  558. # [19:27] <gsnedders> :P
  559. # [19:28] <GPHemsley> lol
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  561. # [19:30] <AryehGregor> Philip`, well, the point is that I was trying to see if everyone was okay with XML5 as long as we didn't claim it was XML. Whether you could actually output equivalent XML in all cases is somewhat academic.
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  563. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> It seems like nobody actually cares about well-formedness as long as you avoid the term "XML".
  564. # [19:33] <AryehGregor> jgraham, flat-screen monitors were invented when they managed to get the dwarfs to go on a diet. It's true.
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  566. # [19:35] <zcorpan_> "Not XML"?
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  569. # [19:35] <AryehGregor> YML would be appropriate, since Y > X. However, it might be confused with YAML. Perhaps ZML? Z is almost as cool as X.
  570. # [19:36] <zcorpan_> Z for zcorpan?
  571. # [19:36] <AryehGregor> Maybe if you write the spec.
  572. # [19:37] * AryehGregor is impressed that the IE Blog is honest enough to include other browsers' nightly builds in their blog post -- almost nobody does that
  573. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> "Hey, look, our bleeding-edge code is better than our competitors were six months ago!"
  574. # [19:38] * gsnedders is amazed they got that post past middle-management
  575. # [19:38] <AryehGregor> (Or worse than our competitors were a year ago, in this case. But only slightly.)
  576. # [19:38] <gsnedders> The fact the developers are willing to admit they are behind and are playing to catch up having not had a browser under development for five years is quite obvious just speaking to any of them.
  577. # [19:40] <AryehGregor> It should be scary to everyone else, of course. IE5-6 clobbered the competition by leveraging vast sums of money so nobody could compete. Although monetarily, Google and Apple will be a lot tougher to outspend than Netscape, especially since they share a lot of the effort.
  578. # [19:40] * AryehGregor foresees major benefits to consumers -- yay competition!
  579. # [19:40] * AryehGregor refrains from drawing any kind of analogy to contentious political issues of the moment
  580. # [19:41] <zcorpan_> hmm, <applet> is scoping in firefox, but </span> still closes applet
  581. # [19:43] <zcorpan_> do we need to make span magic?
  582. # [19:45] <zcorpan_> <object> is scoping in webkit but </h3> still closes object
  583. # [19:45] <zcorpan_> should we make h1-h6 magic instead?
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  595. # [20:12] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: ie7 actually doesn't show fallback for that page
  596. # [20:12] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: does ie8?
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  631. # [21:16] <foolip> where did the WHATWG name come from? I seem to recall reading minutes from http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/ where Hixie asks something like "what working group will develop HTML?" Is that where it came from?
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  633. # [21:18] <Philip`> foolip: That was on his blog
  634. # [21:18] <foolip> href?
  635. # [21:19] <Philip`> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1086387609&count=1
  636. # [21:20] <foolip> thanks
  637. # [21:20] <Philip`> That was the same day the WHATWG was announced
  638. # [21:20] <Philip`> so I assume the name came earlier
  639. # [21:20] <foolip> given the italics, seems like it wasn't a coincidence at all
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  641. # [21:21] <Philip`> Given the lack of "?" too
  642. # [21:22] <foolip> Philip`: no plan on upgrading http://philip.html5.org/demos/microdata/demo.html ?
  643. # [21:24] <Philip`> It's not something I have a plan to work, and not something I plan to plan to work on either, since it doesn't really seem worthwhile
  644. # [21:24] <Philip`> and since hopefully someone else will write a better one ;-)
  645. # [21:26] <foolip> may I copy paste at will?
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  648. # [21:27] <Philip`> Please do
  649. # [21:29] <Philip`> though I disclaim all responsibility if someone uses anything derived from my code to parse microdata in order to remotely control an army
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  652. # [21:32] <foolip> Philip`: naturally
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  657. # [21:54] <zcorpan_> "There's only one rule for making speculative loads of linked scripts, style sheets and images succeed" - https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Optimizing_your_pages_for_speculative_parsing
  658. # [21:54] <zcorpan_> that's not quite true, since <link rel=" stylesheet" ...> fails
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  688. # [23:16] * weinig is now known as weinig|meeting
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  692. # [23:35] <Lachy> annevk, if I'm reading the XML5 algorithm correctly, it seems that whitespace at the beginning of a file would trigger parse errors in the start phase of tree construction. I'm assuming that's unintentional
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  699. # [23:47] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.17.190)
  700. # [23:47] <annevk> I would not waste time on XML5
  701. # [23:47] <annevk> there's far more important things to worry about
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  704. # Session Close: Thu Nov 19 00:00:00 2009

The end :)