/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-11-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Nov 21 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:40] <Philip`> "Opera [...] keeping the modified testsuite in our local VCS" - I thought your local VCS was CVS, so you couldn't get away from it and save your sanity that easily :-)
  15. # [00:40] <jgraham> Philip`: Not for tests
  16. # [00:41] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  17. # [00:42] <jgraham> Mainly I am just wildly opposed to anything that makes me use CVS ever again
  18. # [00:42] <jgraham> But I think there is also a legitimate reason to prefer hg
  19. # [00:42] <Philip`> I wonder how insane it would be to try to use Hg for dealing with review status
  20. # [00:43] <jgraham> How?
  21. # [00:43] * jgraham is much less worried about reviewing tests than merely having tests in the first place
  22. # [00:44] <Philip`> e.g. people submit random tests by publishing a repository, people review and accept tests by pulling them into their own reviewed repository, then someone pulls them into the main official repository at some point
  23. # [00:44] <Philip`> That might be not possible and/or far more effort than is necessary
  24. # [00:44] <jgraham> That sounds quite insane, yes :)
  25. # [00:45] <jgraham> Assuming each tests has a unique id we can have a simple flat file database (or text file or XML document or JSON file or whatever) that adds any metadata to tests
  26. # [00:45] <Philip`> (RDF!)
  27. # [00:46] <jgraham> Sure as long as I don't have to produce or consume it :)
  28. # [00:47] <Philip`> What do you think should be done with tests that are generated (by a possibly complex process) from some source data? Should the source get checked in, or the runnable output, or both, or neither?
  29. # [00:47] <jgraham> Both
  30. # [00:48] <jgraham> like Canvas/testsuite_name/src and Canvas/testsuite_name/tests
  31. # [00:48] <Philip`> I suppose I'm mainly thinking of canvas tests where people should use the YAML/Python to edit tests but don't want to bother if they're just running tests
  32. # [00:48] <Philip`> so that's probably sensible
  33. # [00:49] <jgraham> Yeah I've done similar things
  34. # [00:49] <Philip`> There are bugs in the tests that I haven't fixed for ages because I'm too lazy to run the script and upload the new files again :-(
  35. # [00:49] * jgraham should go to sleep now
  36. # [00:51] <Philip`> You should, but will you?
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  140. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: in the message-emitter code, I don't see that there's currently any way to change the type of a MessageType
  141. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> I see the getSuperType method, but no setSuperType
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  144. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> I assume I'll need to add a property and method to each of the message type classes?
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  163. # [15:11] <murr4y> is there a reason why the w3c html5 validator doesn't recognize <meta charset="utf-8">, other than that it's experimental?
  164. # [15:18] <hsivonen> murr4y: bug in the Perl front end
  165. # [15:20] <murr4y> aha
  166. # [15:20] <hsivonen> (already reported)
  167. # [15:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I don't have the source code or an svn client on this computer, so I'm going from memory
  168. # [15:22] <hsivonen> in MessageEmitterAdapter, trace the call tree from error(SAXException) down to message(Type,...)
  169. # [15:23] <hsivonen> in the method highest in the tree (maybe error() itself, I forget) that first calls message(Type, ...) with an Error subclass of Type as the argument, do the following
  170. # [15:24] <hsivonen> use instanceof the check if the SAXException is a RELAX NG error sbclass that wraps DataTypeExceptions
  171. # [15:24] <hsivonen> if t is, itereate over the DataTypeExceptions and use instanceof to see if any one of them is an Html5DatatypeException
  172. # [15:24] <karlcow> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/validator/httpd/cgi-bin/check?rev=1.719&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
  173. # [15:25] <hsivonen> on Html5DatatypeExceptions, call isWarning()
  174. # [15:26] <hsivonen> if you mamage to get a return value true from even one Html5DatatypeException by doing this, call the message method with Warning as the Type argument
  175. # [15:26] <hsivonen> otherwise, use Error as Type the way it's used now
  176. # [15:26] <hsivonen> that should be about it
  177. # [15:26] <hsivonen> the instanceof code will look ugly :-(
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  179. # [15:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith!
  180. # [15:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I just tried to answer you question
  181. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hey
  182. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> I think I got it figured out
  183. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> oh
  184. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> didn't see it
  185. # [15:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: did you arrive at the same conclusion as what I just wrote in the log?
  186. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> I'll take a look at the logs now.. hang on
  187. # [15:28] <hsivonen> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20091121#l-167
  188. # [15:29] <hsivonen> s/mamage/manage/
  189. # [15:29] * hsivonen also doesn't have a proper keyboard on this computer
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  192. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: sorry, got distracted of a bit
  193. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so the part about tracing the call tree I had figured out
  194. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> so that part was fine
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  197. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> but the part about calling the message method with Warning as the type -- I can't see how to actually do that
  198. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> because the call to message is way further down
  199. # [15:47] <TabAtkins> Hahaha, my random doctypes are already spreading like a virus!
  200. # [15:48] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: you need to downcast
  201. # [15:48] <Dashiva> TabAtkins: Random doctypes?
  202. # [15:48] <TabAtkins> http://www.xanthir.com/etc/doctype.php
  203. # [15:48] <TabAtkins> Triggers standards mode.
  204. # [15:49] <Dashiva> <!DOCTYPE html SYSTEM "crimson-wombat">
  205. # [15:49] <hsivonen> if (dte instanceof Html5DatatypeException) { Html5DatatypeException hdte = (Html5DatatypeException)dte; if (hdte.isWarning()) {...}}
  206. # [15:49] <TabAtkins> I got someone to cargo-cult "mediumorched-mynah bird" in their page. ^_^
  207. # [15:49] <hsivonen> and the same pattern for the SAXException itself
  208. # [15:49] <TabAtkins> s/orched/orchid/
  209. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah, OK
  210. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so not knowing, what I had ended up doing was adding setSuperType and setSubType and setPresentationName methods to the MessageType class, and then I changed all the subclasses so that their contents are just a constructor that sets the superType and subType and presentationName
  211. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'll pastebin the patch so you can see what I mean
  212. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://pastebin.ca/1680958
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  214. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> oops
  215. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: minus the stuff at lines 31-33 of the diff
  216. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> (that's just some clumsy debugging I had added earlier and forgot to revert)
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  221. # [16:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the Type instances were supposed to be immutable singletons, IIRC.
  222. # [16:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so adding setters isn't geed
  223. # [16:15] <hsivonen> good
  224. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> OK
  225. # [16:15] <Lachy> I find it ironic that a proposed solution to the level of indirection problems inherent to xmlns and prefixes, is to add another level of indirection on top with the unobtrusive namespace proposal.
  226. # [16:16] <hsivonen> can you hoist the instanceof stuff into the method that call message with a Type argument?
  227. # [16:16] <hsivonen> and pass a different singleton argument there?
  228. # [16:16] <TabAtkins> Lachy: That's not inherently a bad approach. It may be that the xmlns style of indirection is confusing and/or inadequate, but a different style of indirection is more natural.
  229. # [16:17] <TabAtkins> Lachy: Not saying that Liam's suggestion is good; I still don't have a real opinion of it.
  230. # [16:17] <TabAtkins> What was the issue that needed a change proposal that basically said "Keep the status quo"?
  231. # [16:20] <Lachy> In Krzysztof's latest reply, he's now suggesting that browsers would simply recognise URIs of known namespace definition files, so they wouldn't need to request them
  232. # [16:21] <Lachy> that effectively makes the namespace definition files themselves useless, and it's just reinventing profile=""
  233. # [16:21] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
  234. # [16:22] <Lachy> though, of course the problems I outlined in my previous mail would still exist for unrecognised URIs, assuming the idea is still for browsers to request them. (If not, then it doesn't really solve any sort of distributed extensibility problems)
  235. # [16:23] <Lachy> basically, the whole underlying concept behind the unobtrusive namespace proposal is fundamentally flawed, no matter how you look at it.
  236. # [16:24] <TabAtkins> I'd probably agree. It's as flawed as DTDs, and look where that ended up.
  237. # [16:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no, I'm not sure how I can. That's the problem -- there are conditionals earlier in the main message() method that check to see whether the exception is an error or a warning, then calls to messageWithExact, etc., get made after that
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  240. # [16:29] <Philip`> Lachy: I don't think the proposals were trying to solve the problem of levels of indirection, they were just trying to solve the problem "HTML people don't like XML namespaces" by making anything that's not quite the same as XML namespaces in the hope that people will like it more
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  243. # [16:31] <Philip`> and not directly addressing the fundamental concerns about indirection and complexity and desirability of extensions etc
  244. # [16:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think you need the instanceof on SAXException in two places
  245. # [16:34] <hsivonen> in the current place and higher up when the Type object is chosen
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  247. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  248. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> I think I see now what I can do
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The end :)